dugman
dugman
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Windows of Opportunity is a pretty solid survivor perk. Knowing exactly where you can run for safety at any given moment is very useful.
Zanshin Tactics isn’t as useful for killers though since the survivors are the ones kind of steering the chase and the killer is following them. It’s not totally useless but it’s definitely one of the weaker killer perks that I’d like to see get a buff. One idea I like for it is to allow the killer to drop or destroy one or maybe two undropped pallets per match. It would have to be limited to at most one or two or it would be overpowered, but imagine if Zanshin let you, for instance, destroy the shack pallet or other super safe pallet preemptively once per game. It would make the perk kind of useful and fun to use but still not (I think) be overpowered.
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@Bupkiss said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3097790#Comment_3097790
what site are you getting your stats from? No way kills are up only 9%. Just play the game and you know kills are way way way up. Most likely the aggregate is still looking at accumulated stats for all games. That would mean deaths just since patch are way up to move it by 9% in a couple weeks.
It’s an aggregate site that people upload their games to. The mods don’t want links to these sites posted though because they typically use Steam API as an upload option and the game doesn’t officially support that.
Also the kill rate was up almost 16% early on, the 9% is more recent, so you’re wrong about the kill rate being as high now as it was when the patch first hit.
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Two killer abilities I’d love to see are
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Medusa - Survivors against a Medusa have a timer that builds up tokens whenever they can see her on screen. As the tokens build up the survivor is inflicted with worse and worse conditions. So maybe at 1 token they’re Blind, at 2 they’re Hindered and Incapacitated, at 3 they’re Exhausted and Hemmoraging, 4 they’re Exposed, 5 they’re further Hindered and 6 they’re Immobilized. Once they stop having her in view then after a couple of seconds the timer regresses and the token start going away. It would be a killer that survivors are actually afraid to look at which would I think make for pretty interesting tension. 🙂
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Possession - A killer that can briefly either directly control a survivor or otherwise make them act randomly or violently for very brief periods could be interesting. It would have to be short durations with significant cooldown or the survivors would feel like they don’t have enough control against the killer, but kept to a limited amount it could be fun.
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Mimic Survivors - A killer who can mimic a survivor would be neat. Note that even if the ability is simply they look like a survivor it still would be useful since that implies having Undetectability while that’s the case which is itself a very useful tool for a killer. Alongside this could be implied other things like pretending to work on a generator but actually subtley sabotaging it and the ability to do survivor style medium and slow vaults and crouching. One of the ideas for The Thing is to do something like this and swap between that form and a monstrous form that is used for chases.
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Dropping a Pallet on Zanshin Tactics - One effect killers don’t currently have access to it the ability to intentionally drop a pallet so they can destroy it. This would be more like a killer perk than a killer ability, but I’d love to see Zanshin Tactics allow you to actually once or maybe twice per game with a really long cooldown drop or simply destroy an undropped pallet. It would definitely have to be limited to no more than one or two uses or it would be getting into broken territory, but imagine if Zanshin Tactics allowed you to, for example, go and break the killer shack pallet or some other god pallet before it’s used in a chase. Zanshin Tactics is a perk that doesn’t see that much use currently and this could be a nice boost for it without hopefully making it overpowered.
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@Tranquil_Blue said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3097790#Comment_3097790
I agree generally with point #2, but it may be that the chase buffs for killer are just a bit overtuned (thus making lots of average surivors feel like they're getting completely destroyed in chases now compared to before). Yes, people will get used to the changes over time, but some slight number tweaks might be in order to make things feel just a little bit better.
For point #3, I think OP was talking about saving teammates during the endgame. Endgame saves feel much harder to pull off than before (especially for Solo Queue) due to perk changes and killer chase buffs, so people are more likely to just leave than try to help someone off the hook in endgame. Basically, that makes endgame less exciting.
I think the chases are generally ok other than STBFL probably should be tweaked so its total net attack speed with 8 tokens is the same as it was with 8 tokens pre-patch. The pre-patch version of that perk was already pretty solid and used quite a bit (not top 10 but above average). In this new post-patch environment though the total speed at 8 tokens is just slightly too fast probably, to the point that for instance it can be hard to make a hook save if the killer hits you before you get hit a second time. (The window of error for the rescuer is significantly smaller.)
The other thing related to chases that probably could use a tweak is Decisive Strike at 3 second seems too short, the distance the survivor gets from it is just very small. I think it needs to go to 4 seconds, a compromise between where it was before and where it is now.
But otherwise for the most part the new recovery times seem fine.
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- The stats I’m seeing on an aggregate site I’m following do indicate the kill rate is still maybe 9% higher than pre-patch but not as high as it was the first few days when survivors were getting used to it.
- You mentioned the “chases feel predictably lost” but the killer SHOULD win chases eventually. If the survivors can reliably outrun killers much of the time then the killer can’t actually kill anybody by the time the gens are done and they escape. Chases ultimately are supposed to be about delaying the inevitable but not indefinitely so.
- Likewise I’m not seeing why survivors wanting to leave when the exits are powered is a bad thing? Honestly that SHOULD be the norm, the survivors should want to leave ASAP, not hang around and do whatever for 5 minutes when the doors are available.
- I don’t like playing as survivor because of downtime in general. Too much of the game for me as a survivor is spent on a gen with no killer nearby or on a hook or on the ground dying.
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The only thing I don’t like about the word “fun” is it’s kind of vague. Fun is really subjective and it’s not obvious why something is fun or not for a given person. When I’m making a suggestion I try to use other words to be a little more specific about what it is I think is an issue that makes it not as enjoyable for me.
For instance, I can understand excessive game length being a possible concern that could impact how fun a game is. If a DbD game drags on for 20-30 minutes it’ll feel too long, even if the ultimate result is close. Game length isn’t about “balance” as in which side wins or loses but about how long it takes to get that end result. One of the common complaints about Legion games for instance is how long they can last as opposed to Legion having a higher kill rate than average.
Likewise for player downtime. I don’t find survivor as fun to play as killer for instance because it has a lot of downtime where you are either stuck on a hook or dying or holding a button on a generator and the killer is nowhere near you. Maximizing the amount of time you actually get to have the killer be a threat to you that you should hide or run from while still allowing for the survivors as a whole to be able to escape is probably the ideal goal of the game design.
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Yeah I like the look of RPD and I appreciate them trying to make a map that has more intricate multilevel structure but I don’t like how confusing it is getting around it and the narrow doorways make certain killers irritating to use (last time I was on RPD I was Twins and I hit SO many doorframes as Victor!) It also has occasional hook and totem placement issues. So I’m all for the rework they’re doing next month or so.
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@weirdkid5 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3097705#Comment_3097705
No, Wesker is a very charismatic person and can get people on his side pretty easily, he doesn't have mind control powers.
Ah well. Maybe they’ll use mind control on a Demon killer in a Supernatural chapter someday. 😉
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I haven’t tried to go through all his videos but Pebsi has a bunch of interesting ones where he carefully times and tests all sorts of things. He may already have a video where he does test of the new STBFL to see it’s duration, or may include it in a future one if asked.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3097689#Comment_3097689
If you are talking about Wesker, he is not braindead zombie. He is superhuman. He is super fast and super strong. And he is good to manipulate people. They can make good powers for him.
When you say manipulate, do you mean like mind control? Because a killer that can temporarily briefly possess or confuse the steering of a survivor would be a cool mechanic.
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Survivors can definitely still win if they outplay the killer. I’ve lost a few games as killer that I played badly (mainly because of my horrible aim as Twins and Trickster. I also lost a game lat night as a Backpack Legion but that was partly me messing up and missing some swings, I did a bit better the following game.) A lot of the losses I see on the survivor side in my games I can point to something they did wrong while I played reasonably well. Things like not spotting me coming in and getting successfully ambushed, following me around too much for pointless flashlight save attempts, going for body blocks for no reason, accidentally leaving a survivor on a hook too long and they go through a stage, etc. If the survivors make no obvious mistakes and I play well the games are close.
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The one thing I want them to change on Deathslinger is make it so he can turn at a normal rate while aiming. He’s the only ranged killer in the game whose turning speed slows down while he’s aiming his weapon. It feels like maneuvering through mud, it’s kind of irritating.
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I know basically nothing about Resident Evil, never played it and only saw the first movie a long time ago. I don’t even know anything about what Nemesis actually is. What big bad from the series could be the next killer if it’s not a zombie?
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@CluelessWanderer said:
All Wraiths camp.
I don’t face camp with anybody. 🤷♂️
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The devs have acknowledged they want to find an ingame mechanism to steer killers away from literal facecamping but haven’t found a system they like yet. The ones they experimented with so far apparently either weren’t effective or broke something else in the game. Maybe they’ll come up with something someday but I’m not holding my breath. 🤷♂️
As far as ideas people have suggested, the ones above seem a bit too complex. I think the idea I like best so far is to simply pause or greatly slow the hook timer when the killer is within X meters of the hook. By carefully choosing X you can entice the killer to be far enough away from the hook that a safe hook rescue is more likely but not be so large that the survivors feel no pressure to rescue the hooked player. Note also that this is in line with perks like Devour Hope, Make Your Choice and the new version of Monstrous Shrine which give incentives to move so many meters away from the hook. Basically if they make that type of incentive to move away from the hook or have the hook timer take a really long time to complete part of the base game it would directly impact face camping. (It still could happen hypothetically but it would be much easier for everybody who’s not hooked to escape.)
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The only tweak I want for both Huntress and Trickster is a tiny crosshair or dot or something showing where I’m aiming. This is the only shooter I can think of where ranged characters don’t have an aiming reticle or gun sight (other than Deathslinger), it’s kind of annoying.
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People have posted the game is dying for years, eventually they’ll be right I guess? 🤷♂️
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@xDrAwkwardx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3096859#Comment_3096859
I don't think that really counters the claim. You may as well say the game having an end ruins the interactivity for everyone. I know plenty of people, and have seen plenty of people complain about camping and tunneling even when it happens to a teammate. I see viewers of streams complain when it happened to a streamer, or someone in a streamer's game. I am irritated when my teammates get camped or tunneled, even if it's a 3-man escape. If it weren't so satisfying to get a 4-man escape against a tunneler or camper, I'd consider those games unpleasant, There's more to it than simply being eliminated. It's my stance, and the stance of many others that the bulk of the frustration is from camping and tunneling themselves, not elimination.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3096958#Comment_3096958
It's important not to conflate super immersed survivors with stealthy survivors. Stealth is an important tool in the survivor arsenal, and while it can be abused in a manner that forgoes progressing the game, the alternative would basically be the killer knowing where survivors are at all times. Information perks are there to help you find survivors if you struggle to find them by patrolling, or playing a killer with built-in information like Doctor, Legion etc.
I have already made this point myself, but if it needs repeating, if disincentivizing camping or tunneling truly left the killer at a disadvantage, then other tools could be offered to killers to make up for it. My arguments about camping address it as a problem fundamentally, not whether it is sometimes necessary in the current state of the game.
Note that I said above “where they or their friend” were eliminated early. Elimination is nearly always involved in the complaint. I don’t think I’ve ever had a game where someone complained they got camped or tunneled but they also escaped.
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I never get tired of sending survivors to Cages. 😄
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@Sharpefern said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3096973#Comment_3096973
If there is a reason like there is another survivor nearby but slugging to slug is toxic.
The only time I can think of when slugging is actually toxic might be if you've got all the remaining survivors dying on the ground and you can obviously hook them to end the game but you don't simply because you want to drag it out a few more minutes for no particular reason. If you do that you're a jerk, I agree.
But aside from that corner case there's nothing unsportsmanlike or toxic whatever about slugging.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/337647/can-we-get-a-bbq-nerf
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3096838#Comment_3096838
I think a lot of that is simple force of habit, much as I'm still seeing a lot of Dead Hard.
For a post hook info perk, FoR is way, way better. Otherwise, Discordance.
The only killers I'd use BBQ on are Artist and Dredge.
I think Sadako and Blight and Hillbilly can also potentially have enough map mobility to use it, maybe Freddy too. But yeah, personally I don't use it either.
That said though there are people who use it regularly. I think one of the things they like about it is that the aura timing is extremely predictable. You hook someone, you immediately get auras if anybody is far enough away and not in a locker. That's different from most other aura perks where you can't control the timing of them. (The only other exception of a perk that you can actively trigger mid-game to get auras that comes to mind is Dredge's new perk that goes off when you open a locker.)
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@xDrAwkwardx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3095649#Comment_3095649
I believe the bulk of what you say here are solid points, but I still don't think the mid-match elimination is the core issue, but rather how interactive and varied your experience was, and to what degree you had the ability to influence the game.
It largely appears to me that when a survivor likes being chased, and takes chases early, once they are on death hook they have had their fill and will often do gens or totems. So it's not necessarily true that only direct interaction with the killer is what people enjoy. It's also making decisions and influencing the course of the game.
A survivor on a hook has very little agency, limited to whether or not they should try to kobe at 4 percent, or kill themselves to spawn hatch.
A survivor on a generator may not be interacting with the killer, but they are progressing the game in a way that favors their team, and have the agency to decide whether to stick the Gen, go for a rescue, go heal, do totems, take chase etc.
HOWEVER in the case of camping, a survivor on the Gen hardly has as much agency, because the gens need to be finished before someone dies on hook. The only other option is to go trade, which is not achieved with an interactive chase, but a couple of free hits gained by simply standing there, then that survivor is on the hook/floor.
I think if you could manage balance the game in such a way where limiting the effectiveness of keeping on person on the hook indefinitely, while providing additional incentives to pursue fresh survivors (maybe improved bloodlust on survivors you have not seen or hooked, scaling up with time, and resetting it on downs... however you do it, there are countless ways if you're sufficiently creative) you would have overall more interactive games with varied experience where people are more able to influence the game, all while making it far more likely to yield a 2-K because focused pressure is increasingly disincentivized, while spread pressure is increasingly incentivized.
If providing this game state puts too much pressure on killers, then give the killers tools to be able to perform well under that pressure. The game has yet to come out with any true comeback mechanics for either side. NOED is probably the closest thing, but proved disproportionately powerful depending on totem spawns, so the recent change seems fair enough to me (increases ability of survivors to interact in NOED endgames).
Any solution that disincentivizes interactive gameplay is a problem in itself. And the force driving the interaction is the Killer.
I would counter that being eliminated from the game is the ultimate loss of interactivity and hence the key driving factor in many complaints about the game. How many people do you see complaining about camping and tunneling that are doing it following a game where they or their friend weren't eliminated because of it? I know I rarely see complaints like that, it's almost always involving players having been ousted from the game by being tunneled out and/or camped out.
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@Antrapace said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3096784#Comment_3096784
That would help a little but it’s not what some of us want, I have no desire to sit clicking a few items and watching the pointless animation. I just want it optional again.
When they make the rarities the same as the level 50 blood web there will be zero reason to have Prestige be optional. It will take you exactly as many nodes to get an Ultra Rare you're after, for example, whether you do it at level 1 or level 49.
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I don't know if it should be 300%, but I do think it should start at 100% regression and not 75%. Currently at 75% if you kick a gen with it and it gets stabilized within about 12 seconds you would have been better off kicking it without that perk at all, assuming the survivors are able to consistently hit its skill check (12 seconds is about how long it takes for the gen regression to make up for that slower speed.)
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@Sharpefern said:
This perk has definitely moved down in usage and I think will continue to do so. It wasnt that BBQ was supposed to turn into a bad perk just that people would stop squeezing it into every build but because people are used to running it they will continue to run it despite the lack of BP for a while. When it comes to the information perks I would think its the one with the most counters, being within 40 meters, hiding behind a gen, or going in a locker. I know personally for info perks I have swapped it out with Darkness Revealed on Huntress and Trickster and Floods of Rage on basically anyone else as they are just stronger perks most of the time.
I mean it was run 30-40% of the time prior to the patch and now I would think its probably closer to the 15-20% range based on my sample of survivor games.
That matches the aggregate site I'm following, it looks like BBQ is currently being used in about 18% of matches. Which is still very high, if it stays at 18% on that site that will keep it at something like the second or third most used killer perk.
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Just FYI the aggregate site I’m following is showing BBQ and Chili still being used quite a lot (about 25-30% of matches). Which isn’t surprising to me since there were a lot of people who were using it because they like the aura it gives and to them the bloodpoints were a nice bonus but not the main reason they ran it.
So the number of people using it went down a bit but it’s still popular.
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This kind of matches my thinking in general that regardless of the loadouts and the buffs in the patch ultimately if the survivors play well they’ll still probably win (0-1 kills) and if they mess up they’ll probably lose (3-4 kills).
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Personally I slug for pressure pretty frequently but once two are dead and I’m about to kill the third I don’t bother slugging to avoid the hatch unless I happen to spot the fourth survivor right away. I honestly don’t care that much if a survivor beats me to finding the hatch or not, it’s not worth the effort to me at that point to drag the game on another four or five minutes or whatever trying to force the 4k over the 3k. 3k and the last one escapes is fine (although I do at least try and get to the hatch first and stop them opening the gate afterward, I don’t completely throw in the towel.)
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@AnchorTea said:
Interesting suggestion. Would love to hear survivors say actual words.
Play Ash. 😉
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@cacao1 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3095918#Comment_3095918
You think? I main killer and played not a lot against Legion but what I saw is Legion is not a strong killer who needs a nerf but its absolutly unfun to play against legion. I pick most killers but hag and basement-bubba above legion at any day.
If they would add this system they could assign Legion to the specialist role and he will lose his bonus on action speeds.
Legion doesn’t need a “nerf”, like you said they’re not a strong killer. But a lot of people want them to get a revamp of some sort. (I don’t care either way on that personally. 🤷♂️)
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I hardly ever play survivor, but when I have I play as Ace doing a plunder loadout where I bring in a toolkit, use it up right away, and then get a new item from a chest using chest perks and use that (unless it’s a key, then it’s a crap shoot). I like that chest plundering gimmick and Ace’s look and finger guns and backstory all all kind of fun. 🙂
Second favorite is probably Ash with his sock puppet. 😄
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I think what will happen eventually is, now that the overall base game and perk changes are out, the devs are going to be monitoring how individual killers fare under the new systems and will tweak them individually on a case by case basis as needed. For instance, the new Thanatophobia is ok as is but might be problematic on Legion who got a lot of extra benefit from its buff plus the 10 second base game slowdown. So they may end up wanting to tinker with Legion slightly to keep the underlying Thana as it currently is but somewhat dull its impact on Legion specifically.
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@Biscuits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3095873#Comment_3095873
The problem is that it isn't universally useful, you kind of have to also understand which survivors are louder than others. On the already quiet survivors it is a decent perk, but on the loud ones it is kind of pointless.
Just FYI the devs did say they are aware of the volume difference issue for survivors and are going to be taking a pass on all the survivors to level their volumes.
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Recently in another thread I had a back and forth with someone and the idea we seemed to settle on that I liked was two changes done together
- Halt the hook timer if the killer is within X meters of the hook. So long as X is carefully chosen you can make it so actual face camping (including Bubba) doesn’t work since they’d have to move far enough away to get the timer going to allow for a safer rescue attempt, but still allow for a killer to go to relatively nearby gens and have the timer ticking down to force survivors to do the rescue when the killer isn’t in the vicinity.
- Have an internal game timer where if no scoring events happen for, say, 5 minutes then the game either ends in a draw or goes into endgame collapse to end the stalemate. This change not only addresses endgame stalemates and bodyblocking in corner abuses but also goes with the hook timer change above to prevent a killer from intentionally keeping survivors on a hook indefinitely.
The main trick above is selecting that distance X. If it’s too short then it becomes ineffective, and if it’s too large then it makes it too easy for survivors to simply ignore the person on hook for a long time. So maybe something like 20 meters, which is a little under a 5 second walk for the killer to reach the hook and also far enough that they will have a bit more trouble keeping line of sight on it? Hard to say because you also have to factor in multilevel maps having wonky distance calculations for hook distances and you wouldn’t want the system to be busted on those maps.
On a side note this change would also be in line with perks like Devour Hope, Scourge Hook: Monstrous Shrine and Make Your Choice which all have trigger requirements based on the killer being a good distance away. Basically it’s just applying the logic for those perks of giving incentive to move at least 20+ meters from a hook to the base game itself.
A variant could also be that while the killer is within 20 meters of a hooked survivor the timer takes 90-120 seconds to reach a new stage but if the killer is beyond that range it takes 50-55 seconds to reach a stage. That way the timer is always ticking down but it much, much slower if the killer hovers around the hook. With this you wouldn’t necessarily need the sudden death timer, although the sudden death timer is still useful in other situations regardless.
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I saw a test Otz did of Iron Will at 75% and it actually does work, just obviously not as well as complete sound reduction. It does make it noticeably harder to hear survivors unless you’re right near them, especially if there’s any background noise nearby too.
That said I’m not sure why they tied it to Exhaustion. To me that’s probably the bigger nerf. They probably could have not done that and left the reduction at 75% and it would be fine.
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Always down for your summaries, they rock! 👍
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@HugTheHag said:
Might be a silly thing to ask, but what's the problem with Adrenaline and Unbreakable? Both are perks used only once in the whole game ?
Unbreakable especially, now that DS is nerfed to the ground and below, why would anyone complain about Unbreakable? Against a good killer, that perk is scarcely ever used. Against a tunneler / camper it isn't used either.
There are more scenarios where Unbreakable is a perk slot lost than scenarios where it is actually used, that's maybe the opposite of a busted perk ?
I’ve never complained about Unbreakable and I slug pretty frequently. Yeah it’s annoying on the odd occasion I lose a kill because someone with Unbreakable gets up and gets hatch or something but that’s life. 🤷♂️ But really it’s kind of on par with Deliverance which lets you get off a hook 100% of the time but I don’t see complaints about that perk. (Technically Deliverance can be used twice per game instead of just once as well, but does have the downsides of causing Broken status and also requiring a precondition of saving someone else.)
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I agree that Decisive Strike probably should be 4 seconds, a compromise between the current length and the old one the devs felt was too long, and that Calm Spirit could have that action speed penalty removed and still not be overpowered.
The stun recovery buffs for killer after hits and such is fine though, they wanted to increase the kill rates which were a bit low and that’s obviously a pretty reasonable way to do it since it’s an easy to adjust single parameter in the data. Likewise for adjusting the gen speeds. From the stats I’ve seen I think the overall kill rate is going to land at about 7% or so higher than it was prepatch, which is a buff but certainly still winnable by survivors. The biggest problem last week seemed to be survivors who simply flipped out and ragequit on the first down or two or whatever, that sort of thing was ruining the game for a lot of people who otherwise were playing mostly normally after the patch. Fortunately it sounds like some of that reaction has died down a bit the last couple of days so hopefully we’re in the period now where the tactics and loadouts can stabilize a bit and people just play the game.
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That short term reaction seems to be muting a bit. Games the last couple of days apparently seemed a bit normal based on some of the forum posts and my own games yesterday and today. No ragequits for me the last two days, survivors actually trying to win and I lost a few games as well as Twins and Trickster who I’m kind of klutzy with. (But I’m still a good enough player with them that if the survivors aren’t at least trying to win I’ll still beat them.) So hopefully survivors are starting to settle into the new environment and not just flipping the table when they get downed as much.
Overall the stats I’ve seen from a player data submission site indicate the kill rates are up about 9% or so since the patch. My guess is ultimately it’ll end up being something like 55% kill rate post-patch on that site versus 49% pre-patch since killers did get buffed, but it’s not as much as that initial reaction the first day or two or three where the kill rates were about 15% higher.
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@xDrAwkwardx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3094999#Comment_3094999
You bring up some interesting points. The stalemate mechanic you mentioned would itself be a solution to the hook pause abuse by a killer to hold the game hostage.
My statements about borrowed time and decisive strike being less staple were more that they were a response to tunneling off the hook, not camping. Slugging, in the case of Unbreakable, to me is less of an issue.
As far as proxy camping goes, it's a sliding scale. If you "control a zone" that is too small, it's face camping. It's really a matter of opinion where the line is between face camping and proxy camping. It even varies by killers, who can be more mobile, or who have built in mechanics that already allow them to control an area.
It's a fair point. I don't mind, and I even encouraged in my post, that killers check around for survivors going for a fast save. I just dont think that should be an excuse to constantly be around the hook while it ticks down.
I agree that there will always be survivors who complain when they get eliminated. I don't think elimination should be removed from the game. However, I think the vast majority of people complaining about camping and tunneling right now are complaining because it does not feel like the time they spent in the match was interactive. Against a camper or tunneler, their match is likely spent on a hook, running away from the hook and being downed before you get to a loopable tile, sticking a generator, or giving free hits and downs away trying to get the killer to stop camping/tunneling. That's how most of the people I have seen and spoken with seem to feel anyway.
One thing that hasn’t been mentioned but is kind of implied above, and is a reason I don’t like playing as survivor, is there is I think too much downtime as survivor where you’re not actually interacting with the killer. A lot of time as survivor is spent either doing a generator, dying on the ground, or hanging in a hook. The moments you can see and hide from the killer or run away from them are cool, but there’s probably a good 1/3 of your time being spent doing neither of those things. And since the game allows for people to be eliminated it means whoever is eliminated first had even more of that time cut short.
Again, if there was no elimination, and therefore no reason to do zone defense or focus on downing someone twice in a row, then that would also increase the interactivity by further encouraging the killer to proactively seek out survivors who are working on the generators. That obviously will never be the case in DbD though, even if the devs thought it was a good idea it’s something that would have to be baked into the game from the beginning. (And on a side note this is actually how the official boardgame version of DbD works because the designers of that recognized the issues inherent in player elimination in a game that takes 30-45 minutes to play. Video games are shorter so elimination is tolerated a bit more but the issues still remain just muted a bit.)
You’re correct about the range from the hook being a sliding parameter that can adjust the hook stall idea from doing literally nothing to making the hook simply never time out no matter how far the killer goes away. Which does imply there’s a sweet spot zone where it encourages the killer to move around to generators but still allows for the survivor to time out if their allies do nothing. So maybe by playing with that parameter and also implementing a sudden death timer with it to prevent stalemates it would address things like the Bubba facecamp and also stalemates with two living survivors or an abusive killer preventing the game from ending by bodyblocking someone in a corner and/or staying near the hook to stop the timer. There’s still potentially the technical factors of how the game calculates ranges, but if that could be addressed maybe it’s a solution worth experimenting with?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3094944#Comment_3094944
I don't see real point. your commit chase time to slug people just to not hook them? then commit to other chases on survivor that your looking to kill in which are your hooking. that just sounds like really slow and indirect way to tunnel people out of the game.
The only way reason I can see you doing this is to avoid decisive strike. I can totally see this on pre-nerf decisive strike and I'm not talking about latest change decisive strike, I'm talking about the decisive strike before the many conditions were put to disable decisive strike.
I can completely understand where this post is coming from because I used to do what your describing a long time ago as killer, but in my new post-mmr experience, that strategy is not really that effective. It often just leads you to throw away hook-states.
that's why I think slugging is just extension to camping. proxy camping slug and face-camp hooks. mindlessly slugging by itself just is not really that strong of a strategy in my opinion. its simply not rewarding and as result, the perks that empower slugging(on killer side) and the perks that weaken it on survivor side are pretty much pointless in their current iteration of the game.
that's also why for example, when they changed boil over, people complained about the perk because the perk encourage slugging because it prevents you from getting to the hook and that's largely because getting slugged as survivor is rewarding. Not punishing. There is no penalities for picking another survivor up and your unlikely to die through bleed out. you just save hook-states if you can force killer to slug excluding the hook camp+slugging technique described in my previous post.
You're not "throwing away" a hook state, you're intentionally trading it off for faster time getting into a new chase against a more desirable target. Not all hook states are equal, getting a second or third hook state on a single survivor is worth way more than getting one hook each on two or three different survivors.
And yes, the goal is to "tunnel" someone out of the game. But it's a way to do it that actually maintains pressure on the other survivors to stay off the gens in the process, plus gives you the opportunity to possibly get two hooks on a second survivor if the circumstances permit.
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@Dead_Harder said:
Oh people are stopping throwing?
My games the last two nights nobody threw or rage quit, they actually were doing (or at least trying to do) gens. I lost a few games yesterday with Twins (I couldn't hit with Victor at all, totally out of the zone), won one and lost one with Trickster (again, my aim with Trickster isn't that good), and tonight squeezed in one game with Trapper and got 4k with 1 gen left. In comparison this last weekend I had a game with Ghostface on Midwich, for instance, where after just two hooks three of them ragequit. (And no, I wasn't doing anything even remotely unusual. I literally had a couple of chases, got a couple of hooks, and was off heading to a generator when they just quit out of the blue. I felt kind of bad for the fourth survivor who got left behind.)
So maybe survivors are getting used to the new system a bit, or got their ragequitting out of their system somewhat? Not sure but either way I'm not complaining. 🙂 I'd rather occasionally lose to survivors that try to win than beat survivors because someone ragequit after the first down for no reason.
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I feel the 2-Kill/2-Escape average model for balance is reasonable. The issue I take with it, is that it seems like the distribution is bimodal, with more games ending in 4-0, 0-4, 3-1, and 1-3. It would not surprise me if 2-2 was the least likely outcome of a match overall. ...
The voluntary aggregate data site I've been perusing does have some evidence that backs up your guess that 2 kills is the least likely outcome. Over the last 30 days the kill rate brackets across all matches in the site have been
- 0 kills: 23%
- 1 kill: 19%
- 2 kills: 14%
- 3 kills: 15%
- 4 kills: 28%
(For reference the 4 kill number last month was 25% so the patch increasing the kill rate the last week is pushing that number up a few percent.)
To be fair to the devs, I do think their goal has historically been to have 1-3 survivors escape but it's ended up being 0 and 4 kills being the most common results apparently. And when they say the kill rate was a bit low for their liking, it's quite possible that part of it is their design goal may have shifted to wanting the Exits to be opened closer to 50-60% of the time instead of being opened almost 75% of the time. That's just speculation on my part though.
**CAMPING**, whether its face camping or proxy camping.
...
Personally, I don't see why the hook timer can't be paused while the killer is within a certain proximity (calculated by pathing, not being a floor up for example) of the hook, or has a direct line of sight to the hook. ...
The last thing you want is for the killer to have the ability to stall the timer indefinitely. It just opens things up for abuse.
Also based on how the game seems to handle hook proximity calculations during map setup I don't think the game is set up to do the type of pathing measurements you're talking about. Ranges seem to just be straight line distances or even just horizontal distances ignoring verticality. Anything's possible but it might be something that's harder to resolve in their engine than you think.
Additionally there's nothing at all wrong with so called "proxy camping", that's literally just zone defense in a section of the map. Face Camping is more problematic since if the game makes players think that standing doing nothing at a hook is a good strategy then everybody involved is bored when it happens. The devs have themselves said they want to find a way to mechanically steer killers away from actual face camping but the things they've experimented with internally either didn't have the desired effect or broke the game. And I could be wrong but I vaguely recall the devs actually saying they looked into your idea about tinkering with the hook timer when the killer is within a certain range and it didn't work out, but if so they'd have to comment on that. 🤷♂️ I also wouldn't be surprised if Pyramid Head's Cages were a back door pilot test of doing something similar with hooks but, again, they presumably didn't like how that works for hooks.
Finally I maintain that on the whole complaints about camping and tunneling are less rooted in those strategies and more in how mid-match player elimination causes problems since nobody likes being kicked out of a game part way through while everybody else keeps playing. If for example the game had no elimination, and instead killers just collected ritual tokens when they got hooks or survivors were left dying or on hook too long, and the killer won when they collected 8-12 tokens, there would be no reason to face camp at all and essentially no incentive to keep downing the same survivor multiple times since every down would be equally valid. It's the mid-match player elimination that drives the complaints about these things and also what makes downing and hooking a survivor two or three times in a row better than spreading things out. I seriously don't think we'll ever see survivors stop complaining about "camping and tunneling" since these are actually just transferences of complaints about being eliminated midgame and they're not going to get rid of player elimination.
**OVERUSED SURVIVOR PERKS**
The recent massive perk overhaul attempted address many concerns killers had about the overuse of certain survivor perks, which had resulted in a stale survivor meta. Dead Hard is a discussion in itself, but some I would like to mention are Decisive Strike, Unbreakable, and Borrowed Time. It is my understanding that the overuse of these perks were in direct response to the survivors facing camping, tunneling, and heavy slugging, and that adjusting these things with built-in game mechanics would have made the survivors feel less compelled to stick with these perks (as I'm certain the built-in Borrowed Time has resulted in a significant drop in perk use).
I seriously doubt survivors would have stopped using Decisive Strike and Borrowed Time pre-patch if, say, the hook timer was halted while a killer was nearby. Survivors aren't compelled to use them because of camping, they're enticed to use them because they were extremely effective at helping survivors ultimately escape. They are just as useful when the kill doesn't "tunnel and camp" as when the killer does. You could literally teleport the hooks away from the killer entirely like they do with the Cages and those two perks would still have been extremely popular.
It is true that if slugging weren't possible then Unbreakable wouldn't even exist in the game. Obviously if the only option were to hook a survivor Unbreakable would be totally worthless. But dying on the ground is in the game and not going anywhere, and even killers who don't do heavy slugging do occasionally slug simply because they want to chase another survivor off before picking someone up or because they downed a survivor in the middle of a pallet and need to make sure the area is clear and so on. And in those cases Unbreakable is like a free heal from the dying state that can turn things around. So while it does become more useful the more the killer slugs it has decent use against even average killers who don't slug as often.
**IMMERSED SURVIVORS**
I think it would be interesting for survivors to be on a timer to perform conspicuous actions (when not in chase). Similar to the AFK crows, a survivor just crouch walking around or doing laps around the basement hooks could, after some time, alert the killer. If you think about it, survivors who do this have basically abandoned hope and only seek to survive. It would be nice flavor for the Killer to be able to sense that fear, and it would incentivize survivors to stay active. This helps both Killers and Survivors. Killers, because survivors will be easier to find, and Survivors because they're teammates will be more active.
I agree that endgame stalemates where you have two survivors both hiding and the killer is unable to find them is problematic. Personally I'm for the game having an internal timer where, if no new scoring events occur for say 5 minutes, then the game either ends in a draw or the endgame collapse automatically starts to push things into a sudden death situation. Your idea would also be in the same vein, basically something to force the opposing sides to interact with each other when nothing of substance happens for a while. I do think the timer should be at least 5 minutes of inactivity or something similar, hiding itself as a strategy shouldn't be punished. If anything thematically hiding is more in the spirit of the genre than actively running loops.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3094781#Comment_3094781
well yeah the way to utilizing slugging currently is to hook a survivor and than slug another survivor. that's what I do.
The way I do it is I find a survivor, slug them, finding another survivor. if the first survivor is still slugged, you can pick up either previous or current survivor downed, hook them then bring other survivor to the hook and camp them.
now your camping a slugged survivor and a survivor is hooked. if your a killer that excels at camping & slugging, you can consistently trade a survivor that is unhooked and also re-slug survivors that are under the hook. for example twins can re-slug people with victor and can prevent unhooks with incapacitated status effect. huntress can re-slug survivors easily with her hatchets and she has excellent hook defense because of her m2->m1 combo hook trade and many other killer can excel at this gameplay
I think recently, maybe like 5-6 months ago, they nerfed slugging. previously, if you drop a survivor, the hook progress used to regress when a survivor was on the floor. now it does not regress. so once you drop a survivor, you can't pick them up. they'll wiggle off. still slugging in this form is very effective as it reduces the survivor's generator efficiency by 200%(50% of total team).
The other way to utilize slugging is to slug all 4 survivors. this will not happen against competent teams in most cases unless your killer is extremely powerful at the chase(I.E nurse). 4 man slugging not very common and incredibly difficult to achieve consistently without nurse. The more common gameplay when it comes to slugging and 1 hooking is to camp->tunnel a single survivor out of the game so that only 3 survivor remain, then to slug 2 survivors leaving a single alive. If you can locate last survivor while both survivors are on the floor, you can 1 hook last 3 survivors.
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Slugging is basically a tradeoff between not securing a hook state in order to save yourself about 10 seconds of time getting into a new chase.
Slugging without camping hooks is currently rewarding for survivor. you are rarely ever in danger as survivor from bleeding out. Your team really has to mess up for you to get bleed out as survivor. its also why a perk like knock out and third seal is not really globally used by many killers. The blindness itself is completely ineffective against 4 man swf and only really works against solo players. 4 man slugging is even less likely to occur. your team really has to mess up for that to happen with 4 survivors alive. Its more likely with 3 but you still need make mistakes as survivor to get into that position.
This is why you do not really see slugging that much on killer side. its not very rewarding. I think this is the reason why Twins that supposedly only excels at the gameplay is not played that much. it's difficult to play for most players and its not particularly too rewarding even if your good at it(although dev say that twins are monsters apparently).
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3094786#Comment_3094786
well being bleed out counts as getting killed, so the killer can choose to kill you this way. some survivors see it as being toxic, i usually just see as total waste of time. just take loss and move on.
I never facecamp hooks, it's a pretty inefficient use of time for the most part. I do slug though to keep only one survivor on a gen at a time at most. Like I said, the trick is hooking one or two people out. The object of slugging the other survivors isn't to force them to bleed out, it's to keep them off the gens while you focus on the main targets you actually want to hook three times. If someone does happen to bleed out so be it but that's not the actual reason to do it.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3094700#Comment_3094700
the perk your looking for is soulguard, soulguard gives you an endurence effect whenever you are picked up on the floor. unbreakable+soulguard can counter that situation, alternatively, looping better to prevent being slugged requires no perks.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3094705#Comment_3094705
that last part is somewhat problematic. your making errors as survivor and yet your not get punished because its very unlikely that the killer will deplete all 4 minutes of slug out timer. survivors can pick themselves up infinitive amount of times with little no drawback which it is not as common for a killer to slug as it is for a killer to camp and tunnel hook-states. Its also why Twins tends not be played very much as killer because she is so inefficient at hooking and slugging is not very effective as strategy overall. I feel like survivors should get punished for being slugged and pick-up off the floor by losing 25% of their death timer since currently survivors rarely ever threatened by slugging as a whole and rarely consider the anti-slugging perks.
I think the fact that every trial for survivor comes with expectation of camping and tunneling hooks is part of reason why the game feels stale because there is lack of dynamic win conditions. if slugging was prominent(i.e the killer would get rewarded for slugging), there would be more dynamic trials and we might see more dynamic perks used on the survivor side and perhaps more dynamic perks used on killer side to reinforce a particular play-style.
Maybe certain perks like No mither could use rework/buff so it isn't just complete meme perk.
basically slugging is somewhat is unexplored in dbd and exploring it might lead to fresh new gameplay experiences.
Well you do get punished as a survivor if you get slugged, just potentially not as much as if you get hooked. Slugging is basically a tradeoff between not securing a hook state in order to save yourself about 10 seconds of time getting into a new chase. If you slug too much and you're not careful you can end up losing since survivors can revive each other pretty quickly when you're not nearby and still be working on gens potentially same as when someone is hooked. And in fact because it takes 4 minutes to time out as a slugged survivor versus 2 minutes as a hooked survivor you might potentially be giving survivors more total time to do gens unless you're cashing in some of those down as hooks.
That's why my preferred strategy is to hook one or two survivors and slug the others. It focuses my carrying time on only one or two targets to help eliminate them more quickly while still giving me extra time to get into new chases after downs. I hardly ever bother trying to do a full four person slug for the win since it can be kind of risky and backfire pretty easily. But, hey, if a killer can manage to do it more power to them!
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@bm33 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3094705#Comment_3094705
Did you read my post? That the killer was running Knock Out and I couldn't find my slugged teammates? The times I did find them he knocked them back down again quickly after to continue slugging. He bled them out, never once hooking, even though no gens were completed. Then he slugged me as last survivor for nearly the entire 4 minutes before hooking me - there was no possible rescue for me, my entire team was bled out. Do you really not understand why someone would complain about slugging in this situation?
I get you always defend slugging but you can't really think slugging an entire team until bleed out at 5 gens and waiting until last survivor is almost bled out before finally hooking them is OK?
Yeah, I read your post. Who cares if no gens were completed? Again, slugging is a perfectly valid way to apply pressure or even to win.
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Looking over the player stat site I've been trying out, their global stats for the last two months are below. Only the last 7.5 days or so of the Jun-Jul numbers are post-patch but the increases or decreases kind of give you an idea of where the players who use the site trended after the patch.
A couple of notables
- Dredge's use regressed to the median. Not surprising since he was heavily used following his release. He's still pretty popular though comparatively!
- Huntress seems to the be their most popular killer at the moment. Probably simply because she's a good killer and comes with the game. 🤷♂️
- Interestingly Legion's percentage went down slightly this month. Even so Legion was already super popular apparently last month, well before the new patch hit!
- Plague's numbers haven't changed at all, it's not looking like she got a boost on this site from Thana.
- Clown's numbers are prior to him being kill-switched today
- The Twins are really unpopular on this site.
- Aside from Oni, the #3 entries in GannMan's chart are all in the top six of this site's picks for Jun-Jul.
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There's nothing wrong with slugging. In fact if anything I'm always surprised when someone complains about being slugged because at least when you're slugged you can move around and try and get to a better position, and if a survivor comes in for a rescue then as long as you've healed yourself as much as possible they can instant tap you to get you off the ground. And unlike hooks if you get downed and get back up the killer hasn't directly gotten much closer to killing you.
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@xEmoGirlxAlexisx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3094229#Comment_3094229
Yeah ... I Really like the default Skin whit the pink Colour Variant the most but the event skin is also very cool and disturbing i cant wait for the Winter Winter Collection Skin from the Poll :)
I think maybe they mean skeletal as in "extremely thin and lanky"? 🤷♂️
But yeah, I expected from the name that it would be a big collection of bones mashed together in a Dredge shaped thing. Still looks pretty sweet though.
Dredge is quickly becoming one of my favorite killers. Not only is it really fun to play, it's also got just a fantastic look to it, neat sound design on its Nightfall and other effects, and kind of unique and fun lore. All around one of the best killers they've put out.