crogers271
crogers271
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@Nebula said:
I think by 2025 the game has at least one mainstay of something like 2v8, 5v5, etc.
(One can hope at the very least)
This was going to be my answer.
I'd say its probably more likely that will have a rotation of game modes because I don't think BHVR wants to do a permanent one. Maybe by the start of 2025 one of the modes will go over really well with the community and it will be under consideration to be made permanent.
Edit: I should have also said modifiers instead of game modes, which is a distinction BHVR really seems to be trying to draw.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653769#Comment_3653769
Hey, i'd appreciate at this point if you would please stop tagging me, i'd rather not have to use the block feature as i really don't want to be blocking people in the community. Again, would be happy to continue discussion if you reset and answer my question. Thanks!
Again, would be happy to continue discussion if you reset and answer my question. Thanks!As long as this reset is both ways, I'm fine with it. New discussion starting now.
Your question was:
Should this game be balanced around high level players, the best of the best high MMR. Or should the game be balanced around average level (the vast majority) of players?It's a false dichotomy. There is no yes / no answer that can be given to that question. Each issue in the game needs to be addressed on a case by case basis. You'd need to measure both the degree of the impact as well as the number of players impacted.
On a purely hypothetical level, if there was an issue that was negatively effecting 15% of players, but changing it would now negatively impact 5% of players, they should make the change. The MMR levels are irrelevant. But actual issues rarely are so cut and dried.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652727#Comment_3652727
why would it be? we have no idea what's the distribution on dbd's elo system.
until we get a graph or something showing it, I don't really see a reason to assume it's gonna be similar to chess
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652748#Comment_3652748
so, yes? nothing you said gives a number, just an expectation. but no way of knowing at what number we should expect it.
so, yes? nothing you said gives a number, just an expectation. but no way of knowing at what number we should expect it.Sure, without us actually having access to the player pool size and specific elo mechanics, saying something like 'high MMR is 2050' is just an educated guess.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652570#Comment_3652570
I'm going to disengage from you at this point since you want to continue arguing against a strawman and not have discussions in good faith. If you would like to reset the conversation and continue talking, you can answer my previous question
Should this game be balanced around high level players (top mmr) or average players (where most players are)
If you aren't willing to go on that route and want to continue arguing with a strawman then i'll just move on from this discussion. No point in continuing if someone won't do so in good faith.
No point in continuing if someone won't do so in good faith.Are you going to recognize that you are confusing me with other people in the thread? Because if we're going to accuse others of bad faith that would seem to be the absolutely basic level of a good faith argument would be recognizing that actual arguments of the person you are engaging with.
I've given you the page number where all of my replies to you exist. Before you accused me of attacking a strawman there's two of them. But you bring up things like skull merchant that was never in the conversation between us.
If you want to do a reset, that's the reset you need to do. Until then, your entire argument is bad faith and a strawman.
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@Æthereal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650054#Comment_3650054
A 2k is a tie as it's the very middle of the road. 3k and 4k are wins and 1k and 0k are losses. 60% kill rate comes out to an average of 2.4 kills per game. This means killers have an average win rate of 40% of their games, and survs are winning 40% of their games.
@Firellius points out that this presumes an even distribution, which is unlikely true.
But even if we had an even distribution, you can't just take 2.4 and round it down to 2.0. If the distribution was roughly even you'd need more games on the 3k / 4k side.
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@concubined said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652677#Comment_3652677
Exactly when I made this post I really did not expect to have survivor mains under in my comments trying to justify it.
You didn’t use to see a slugging condemn Sadako every single game either back when it was a problem but it did not change that it was an issue?
And as for them saying having someone trail your chase means they’re not on gen, on comms they can easily tell them to rotate towards their gen after the hit and apply FTP+BU that way.
So it’s possible under every and any post on here they’ll be people disagreeing with either willing ignorance or they’re just bored and in need of a debate
Exactly when I made this post I really did not expect to have survivor mains under in my comments trying to justify it.Pulsar is very far from a survivor main and Seraphor is killer sided.
I'm a survivor main and I'd gladly have this combo pulled out because its the type of thing that weakens the survivors far more frequently than it helps.
And as for them saying having someone trail your chase means they’re not on gen, on comms they can easily tell them to rotate towards their gen after the hit and apply FTP+BU that way.SWFs can run background player+flashlight+go down away from a wall or power struggle+die on pallet+nearby teammate. Both of which can be pulled off without sacrificing a health state and being broken for 60 seconds. The only real benefit of bu+ftp is that you don't have to be in a SWF to pull it off.
So it’s possible under every and any post on here they’ll be people disagreeing with either willing ignorance or they’re just bored and in need of a debateThe fact that something seems obvious to you doesn't necessarily make it correct, that's why we have a discussion forum.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652700#Comment_3652700
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652701#Comment_3652701
so
"If their system is anything close to elo (in terms of statistics), based on where the soft cap is now, its likely <1% of players."
has absolutely no base beyond at most an educated guess?
has absolutely no base beyond at most an educated guess?Its a little more than an educated guess as elo systems should provide a bell curve if the game has a skill element. If it has skill you will either get to a point where all of the top group of people are all of equal skill and/or they are small enough of a number that they don't get matched against each other.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652039#Comment_3652039
I'm asking how anyone calculates how many people or % of people are at any elo range.
For BHVR it would be simple they'd just have to look at the numbers and draw a line based on where the highest 1% (or whatever number they want) and call that high MMR. That could be 2200, 2300, 2400, etc.
They also likely base where they set the brackets / caps at where various MMR points have ended up.
You could predict where the upper MMR would be when designing the system, but that would require knowing the player pool size and the theoretical upper skill limits of the game.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652570#Comment_3652570
For the part that i talked about (Skull mercchant), i want to remind, that stats have to be imterpreted. If we just take anything as it stands, we wont get anywhere. This is working with statistics. Of ccourse Skull mercchant isnt the strongest killer in the game. Not by a long shot. Neither are Pig or Freddy stronger than Nurse.
One has to ask themselves on how these stats are created and whos information is taken. Then the picture becomes a lot clearer.
Skull merchant is propably so high, because many still are heavily biased towards her and give up as soon as they hear her music or see a drone. She also has a ton of status effects that make it harder for newer survivvor players to realize whats going on.
Pig, Sadako and Pinhead all have a side objective for survivors to deal with. A majority of the playerbase consists of pretty causal players that do not put in thousands of hours to leanr one role or character. For these peopole even a Pig can be a real threat in chase. Then dealing with the traps can become a real trouble. Pinhead and Sadako can be even worse in that regard.
Nurse is presumably that low, because she has a very different playstyle compared to other characters. Many people play one game, ar sick of getting no hits whatsoever, looking down all the time, get insulted and tbagged in the exit gate and drop her to go back to Wraith.
These are all just assumptions of course. But to me, the statistics make a lot of sense. They are also the only 100% accurate facts that we have because they come directly from the developers.
Agree with all of that, but one thing I'd add on Pig. I suspect if you mapped Pinhead/Sadako on a kill rate / MMR graph you'd see a slow linear decline. For Pig I think you'd see a sudden quick drop somewhere in the middle. Reason being if Pig can get a down / headtrap before the first couple gens pop, then the Pig is in great position. Once the Pig gets to an MMR though were it becomes normal for multiple gens to pop before the first chase ends, that first headtrap isn't nearly as strong.
So I think there's a good chance that Pig somewhere has a breakpoint in the MMR were she becomes a lot less viable.
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@justalilbit123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652463#Comment_3652463
As many times as it takes? If the survivors are trying to hammer out 1 particular gen, are you saying I'm obligated to let it go? What kind of sense does that make? That's taking all player agency away. That's like saying if a guy scores 8 goals in a hockey game (yeah I'm going there) that he's barred from trying to shoot at the net for the rest of the game. It's dumb. It punished people the mechanic was NOT AIMED AT.
Again, this is supposed to be ANTI 3 GEN. This is not supposed to be "anti gen regression". The entire point of the system is to punish chess merchant type play, where a killer runs 4 gen perks, does nothing but kick gens to try to drag the game on as long as possible. I have stated that not only do I run at most 2 slowdown perks, but usually 1, that I have personally seen the gen block mechanic kick in many, many times, simply because survivors are exploiting the fact that I can only kick it so many times.
You're suggesting there should be a limit on how many times you can make a good decision in a game. You're suggesting that if I see a gen at 90% with 2 guys working on it, that I should let them finish it. Do you truly not understand how messed up that logic is? Like I said, if a survivor got 4 flashlight saves, you would NEVER consider it fair for their flashlight to just disappear or be locked for the rest of the game.
The mechanic needs to be redesigned. OBVIOUSLY 3 genning should be addressed but what I'm saying is this isn't it.
Do you truly not understand how messed up that logic is? Like I said, if a survivor got 4 flashlight saves, you would NEVER consider it fair for their flashlight to just disappear or be locked for the rest of the game.Flashlight batteries run out.
Survivors run out of pallets.
Certain things have limited uses. There's nothing inherently strange about that. Killers got a limited number of gen regressions and two buffs in return that happen far more frequently.
I've had one game were I hit a gen that I could no longer kick and I was running No Where to Hide and Eruption. It was the central downstairs gen on RPD and by the time it triggered the game was decided.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651867#Comment_3651867
My point is you are arguing with a strawman at this point.
I brought up the stats are bad, you said they are good. So i asked you if you believe the conclusions the stats lead you down, that skull merchant is the best killer in the game, and nurse is one of the worst. Then you brought up a hypothetical. I mentioned why that hypothetical won't exist. And now you are arguing against that hypothetical. So my point is. You are strawmanning. So. Lets get back on the actual topic instead of the strawman you have built up.
I can reset this conversation by asking you a simple question which will lead us to down the path of trying to find out what you believe.
Simple.
Should this game be balanced around high level players, the best of the best high MMR. Or should the game be balanced around average level (the vast majority) of players?
I brought up the stats are bad, you said they are good. So i asked you if you believe the conclusions the stats lead you down, that skull merchant is the best killer in the game, and nurse is one of the worst. Then you brought up a hypothetical. I mentioned why that hypothetical won't exist.This never happened with me.
I've been in lots of discussions with you and this is a frequent occurrence where your responses feel like they are to an entirely different argument. If I was being generous I'd say its because you take all of the arguments of people disagreeing with you and lump them together.
The Skull Merchant conversation is one that happened with @radiantHero23 and @JeanGreyarea - You dropped out of the conversation with radiant when he pointed out, accurately, that you were saying things he had never said.
Hypothetical - I have no idea what you are talking about. I did a quick search of the thread and can't find it.
Stats - I think pretty much everyone recognizes that there are other things that influence the stats and we can disagree over what has caused them to look the way they do. I'd say the stats are useful.
And now you are arguing against that hypothetical. So my point is. You are strawmanning. So. Lets get back on the actual topic instead of the strawman you have built up.I've posted three times before this post. Unless this post starts a page 5, all my posts have been on page 4, and one was to @Pulsar.
My initial post I disagreed with your assertion that NOED kills somehow shouldn't count. That's it, I didn't jump on any other conversation.
To my first post you countered that it wouldn't be fun if every game was like that.
I then responded that no one ever said every game, you jumped to that. I then talked about how those matches are critical to the playstyle of the game and can be very fun.
I can reset this conversation by asking you a simple question which will lead us to down the path of trying to find out what you believe.Simple.Should this game be balanced around high level players, the best of the best high MMR. Or should the game be balanced around average level (the vast majority) of players?I'll save you the time because we've been down the road before and I've seen you do it with others. You treat it as a trump card that exposes hypocrisy when its really a bad argument.
First, its a false dichotomy. That is you are presenting a question as if there are only two options when there are many more.
Most people say around the middle or the average, which is a general statement that you then treat as an absolute. You set up the question with a 'simple' implying a basic answer, but you then treat responses as if they've made an overarching statement that can never be deviated from. There also becomes disagreement about what it means to 'balance around the middle' where you've made arguments that I thought exactly fall into that definition.
From there you either post the TF2 video or ask where are the Nurse buffs. The TF2 video is fine, but what its discussing usually doesn't apply to DbD.
On the Nurse buffs there are three responses - you are confusing game balance with game design, that many people just want a Nurse rework, or that Nurse should be evened out (buffed and nerfed).
I've never seen you respond to any of those issues, but its possible I missed it. So if you just want to jump to that point we can.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650856#Comment_3650856
ok... but how would you calculate that?
I'm not sure which part of it you are asking about:
If it is how does an ELO calculate: there would be an algorithm with multiple variables. Every player starts at the same point, you win you game MMR, lose MMR goes away. This though is modified by the MMR of players you are facing (DbD further modifies it by game length and, if a survivor, team performance). How much weight is attached to each variable is unknown.
How that high MMR is less than 1%: BHVR has said that the MMR is on a bell curve (like most competitive activities). Given enough games a very small group of people will reach the top.
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Two reasons I'd go for:
1: Teleport is pretty powerful.
2: Lots of killers overuse their power. Sometimes killers would be better served off just using their superior speed to hit the survivor with an M1, but because you have a power, you use it. Freddy doesn't have any power to distract him in chase really. Even the pools don't slow him down that much and are so weak that players don't overuse them.
It's kind of like the videos Hens and others made where they played without using their power and still got a lot of success. That's Freddy by default. This means players can't make a mistake by missing a charge / hatchet / summon, etc.
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It's not bannable because its a game mechanic. You can't put something in the game, allow players to do it, then whip around and ban them for it.
I'd say just remove the ability of the first person hooked to even attempt an escape. BHVR and others say these people would just rush the killer when removed. While that would happen sometimes, I generally disagree, and think most would either play the game, or DC allowing a bot to at least play the game.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651210#Comment_3651210
Because if ever single game where the killer won ended up like that, do you think that would make the game fair and balanced? And thats not a gameplay loop that is fun for either side.
Is it fun as survivor to be playing well the whole match, and lose simply because the killer hit you with noed at slightly the wrong time? Is it fun as the killer to get completely stomped the entire game until noed carries you?
But at this point you are arguing against a point i shouldn't have even brought up because it isn't really relevant to the discussion. I'd like to stick actually on topic and talk about how the stats are useless.
Because if ever single game where the killer won ended up like that, do you think that would make the game fair and balanced? And thats not a gameplay loop that is fun for either side.Well that's moving the goalposts a lot. We've gone from not counting to every game.
Is it fun as survivor to be playing well the whole match, and lose simply because the killer hit you with noed at slightly the wrong time?Um, yes? That's what makes survivor fun in the long run.
Is it fun in the moment? No, its agonizing to die when the escape is so close. But that's what makes survivor exciting, the knowledge that the situation can be turned around on you at any moment. Escapes as survivor feel much more rewarding than victory in other games because the intensity stays until the end of the match.
It's what makes DbD appealing. If I'm playing a team deathmatch style symmetrical game and my team jumps out to a significant lead, we're going to win. The game becomes uninteresting. DbD doesn't work like that, just because the survivors are outplaying the killer doesn't mean they are safe.
Is it fun as the killer to get completely stomped the entire game until noed carries you?If you don't find it fun the solution here is easy as you don't have to take the perk. But if you have the perk and plan around it, then yes, it can be quite a bit of fun. Snatching victory away from the survivors is exactly the thing many killers are looking for.
But at this point you are arguing against a point i shouldn't have even brought up because it isn't really relevant to the discussion.The reason I spent time on the other posts is that I think a lot of people want DbD to be something its not. We all have things we don't like about the game and wish we could change, but a personal dislike is different from it not working.
I'd like to stick actually on topic and talk about how the stats are useless.Stats aren't useless. As BHVR has said, they don't tell the whole story. A stat alone might also have multiple reasons why it might be true, but they certainly aren't useless.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651302#Comment_3651302
No. We do not.
We also have no confirmation that Mori's, Condemned or bot kills count either.
The bots we know though, right? To get a bot you need a disconnect, so that whole game isn't counted.
I was always under the impression that hatch escapes didn't count toward the escape rates, but now that you bring it up I can see the fact that it is null MMR does not necessarily mean it isn't counted here.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650667#Comment_3650667
The stats will never show 80% escape rate because looking at stats that way aren't ever going to show the problem.
Escape and kill rate is a horrible metric to look at because there are too many variables to look at:
- Was it a SWF
- Did the kills all happen at the end because the killer had NOED and they played altruisticly? I could give you examples of games where i get 1-2 hooks and the game goes horrible, but i get a 4k because they didn't expect the NOED. I wouldn't exactly consider that a "balanced match"
- Did both sides play their hardest to win
- Did anyone give up and hook suicide
- Did the map generate a survivor sided map with 87 pallets for some reason.
The other problem is that the amount of survivors that play this game that are CAPABLE of playing at that level are extremely small. So for every match i get against a team that is literally impossible to beat unless i'm playing nurse, i'll get 10 matches with megheads that predrop shack pallet the wrong direction so i hit them anyway.
This is why looking at those types of metrics isn't really useful. This is also why i'm recording many matches right now, and doing several experiments to actually SHOW people what they aren't seeing, because data only goes so far if you can't actually see it. It's just taking a while because i don't have as much time to play DBD at the various times of day i need to get the proper stats. I should later this year though when i have some time off work.
Did the kills all happen at the end because the killer had NOED and they played altruisticly? I could give you examples of games where i get 1-2 hooks and the game goes horrible, but i get a 4k because they didn't expect the NOED. I wouldn't exactly consider that a "balanced match"
Why wouldn't we count those? That's the game. It's not meant to be even ('balanced match') the whole way through. It's meant that killers can being having a generally bad game but turn things around in their favor really quickly.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649884#Comment_3649884
I know how game balance works. You can’t balance around clueless players.
You are using a faulty premise to argue with a strawman.
@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649221#Comment_3649221
So to clarify, the killer shouldn’t have a chance at a 4k, even if they are as good as the survivors?
As much chance as 4 equally matched survivors should have at a 4e. The only thing Hensen's post is missing is saying 'on average'.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649648#Comment_3649648
I was a professional fighting game player. Placed at the EVO world championships twice. Look up my tag if you don’t believe me. The idea that a game should be balanced around mediocre players was laughable back when I was competing.
What is the relevance of being a comp player in something other than DbD?
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@sickdeathfiend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649710#Comment_3649710
All bad games die*
fixed that for you.
I'd love an example of a good game.
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@ImWinston said:
Taking Steam data, the player base continues to decline. I know Steam doesn't count consoles and I'm not saying dbd is dying. But why?
The game is much more balanced now than 2-3 years ago, killers are very solid and viable (except for a few), there are many balanced maps (except for a few), many "broken" strategies no longer exist...
In theory the player base should increase and not decrease.
Some people will now say "there are no new game modes"... "lights out" had literally no effect on player numbers.
your opinions?
All games die.
That's the natural way things work. New games are constantly coming out competing for attention. Meanwhile, no matter how good a game is, people get bored of it and look for something new.
Maintaining an active playerbase for as long as DbD has is an amazing achievement. Time is far more of a threat to the game than any particular complaint people have about it.
In theory the player base should increase and not decrease.Given what I mentioned above, game improvements need to be made just to keep the player base stable.
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@johntec said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649527#Comment_3649527
Ok let's imagine a situation, which could occure right now in the game, and you tell me wether this is problematic or not. The killer has two hooks and three gens are already repaired. It only took the survivors 90 seconds to repair those three gens. In those 90!! seconds, it is impossible that the killer got rid of enough pallets to be strong or op in the late game, unless the chased survivor played bad, dropped every pallet and didn't utilise the loops potential.
Now if survivors keep splitting up after the first three gens got repaired, they still keep a lot of pressure in the late game as well. If you ever played killer, you know what I mean. Four gens are left, two gens or more are being repaired, and as soon as u leave a gen as killer to protect the other, survivors shift w away from that gen, making the chase not viable for the killer, and the gen the killer just left, continues being repaired. Now the killer has the option to commit a chase and propably lose the game, or try to hold a three gen which is extremly boring for both sides. Does this sound fun or fair? I don't think so.
And I didn't say my idea is the only solution, it was just an idea to solve this problem of the first three gens being repaired to quickly
The killer has two hooks and three gens are already repaired. It only took the survivors 90 seconds to repair those three gens. In those 90!! seconds, it is impossible that the killer got rid of enough pallets to be strong or op in the late game, unless the chased survivor played bad, dropped every pallet and didn't utilise the loops potential.If you have two hooks in 90 seconds even if 3 gens get done you are doing fine. You aren't winning, but you are in an okay position.
That's generally a good game. Games were the killer establishes a dominant position extremely early are really boring.
@johntec said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3649514#Comment_3649514
Thats true, but the devs already stated they don't wanna implement an early game mechanic, so I don't know what else could be done
So if you are trying to make posts for ways to improve the game while also avoiding things BHVR won't do, then this is a non-starter of an issue. BHVR doesn't think the early game importance is a problem, you aren't going to loophole a solution in via a more complicated method that they haven't explicitly said is off the table.
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@concubined said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3647807#Comment_3647807
The video obviously resonated with me I’d rather you go watch it then we can have our cute little discussion about it afterwards than waste my time typing more or less the same concept and spoon feeding it to you.
I watched this video. Basically, not a single thing he talks about actually deals with all of the detailed reasons Pulsar gave for avoiding tunneling.
This is why its bad to try and use other people's arguments to substitute your own because you end up arguing against a strawman.
Additionally you started the thread with this
I’m curious for the community’s feedback as I believe I’ve been very reasonable and if by miracle a developer is reading this I can only hope by another miracle you take this into consideration.If you want community feedback, which has come in, you actually have to engage with it. If you are hoping that devs are going to take your ideas seriously you have to be able to defend them against the inevitable disagreements that will come in.
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So there are a couple of ways to play stealth.
A pure stealth would involve something like distortion, calm spirit, quick and quiet, and then something like deja vu to get gens done. The idea here is to focus on the 3 gen and breaking it while avoiding the killer.
A stealth/chase build is one that is not afraid of being detected by the killer, but wants to lose him in chase (instead of maximizing chase length). Quick and quiet, dance with me, lucky break, and bond. The idea here is to try and lose chase, if you get injured hope you lose the killer with lucky break, and you use bond to find other survivors to heal you and/or heal them to recharge lucky break.
A lot of stealth is much more about how you play. It means not running from the killer at the first sign and trying to use the 3rd person camera and lockers. This means if you screw it up the killer can get an incredibly easy down.
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@Nick said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3646687#Comment_3646687
With those solutions you will create some very BHVR-style problems.
1. Increasing(??) the slugging timer x5? Won't this make slugging even worse? So instead of crawling around for 4 minutes you will be lying there for 20 minutes? Can't see how thats fun for the survivor. Also the other survivor will have to hide for 20 whole minutes? Surely you meant DEcrease, right?
2. The aura idea might create some weird problems where people hide in lockers with distortion, hop out and in to avoid crows and recharge distortion in the locker. You'd have to go for killer instinct.
3. Problem still remains where a killer can stand on top of the hatch and wait (like Wraiths do). You'd have to give your position away by repairing a gen and die anyways.
4. RNG gates after RNG hatch. After managing to stop survivors from completing their objective you have to walk in circles to find a random hatch. Even if you also manage to reach it first you have to hope for good gates and look left and right for 2 minutes like you're at a tennis match. If you are unlucky and the gates spawns are bad you lose the survivor anyways. Reward for doing your initial objective well I guess...?
5. Hatch has no interaction between the 2 roles. You're both walking in circles twerking for the hatch to spawn in your favour. Sometimes you don't even see eachother up until you read that "ez noob" in endgame chat.
6. Hatch fuels toxicity. Survivors can play full solo builds and let their whole team die just so they can get a potential free escape at the end. It feels a bit cheap, thats why I think some survivors say toxic stuff in endgame chat because they know it was cheap and want to rub the escape in your face. Even though you won as killer it still feels cringe to let one go for free.
- This all because of the hatch btw.
1. Increasing(??) the slugging timer x5?Opposite direction. Increasing the speed of the meter. So hypothetically the longest a person would be down in this situation is 48 seconds.
2. The aura idea might create some weird problems where people hide in lockers with distortion, hop out and in to avoid crows and recharge distortion in the locker. You'd have to go for killer instinct.We're talking permanent aura reveal, so I think that clearly means it overrides perks, but yeah make it killer instinct if you want.
3. Problem still remains where a killer can stand on top of the hatch and wait (like Wraiths do)My scenario was the situation where two players are left alive. Once we're back down to one player we're in the same boat we are now. Which could have some adjustments, but that's a different question.
4 / 5: I think the random elements of the game are critical to its success. I think without things liking hoping / dreading the hatch spawn location the game would get stale really fast.
6: Survivors can play full solo builds and let their whole team die just so they can get a potential free escape at the endAdding in aura reading or something at the two player level would highly discourage such styles of play.
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So can we just have a mercy out for 2 plus gens with 2 survivors remaining, and call it killers favor idc. They beat us, they win.I feel that a lot of people misunderstood the OP, which is fair because it was a long post and when people talk about removing the hatch they usually mean something different. If I understand the OP's argument, its that if a killer can get X kills before Y gen completion, the game just ends in a killer 4k.
Conceptually I like the idea, realistically I don't think it would work.
Why I'd like it:
- Speed up pointless games for both sides.
- Survivors might work together more to prevent someone from getting eliminated early in the match.
Why I realistically don't think it would work
- Lots of the game is built around the concept that the survivors are not a full team. Survivors have times were they have to decide to play for themselves or the groups. I don't think BHVR will ever move away from that.
- It might result in the opposite outcome where if the survivors get a bad start they just rush to sacrifice to get the game over (though I think this is the game as is).
- It might feel good for veterans, but would be annoying for new players. The game just feeling like it arbitrarily ended would be a confusing experience.
My opinion on hatch:
Hatch itself is fine, even the random nature of it. The only problem is the standoff where multiple survivors hide to draw the game out. Much like how we've addressed 3 genning because long drawn out games aren't fun, this should be addressed as well.
My suggestion:
When 2 survivors remain and more than one gens needs to be completed, both get a 60 second timer. Every second not on gens or in chase the timer decreases, every second on gens the timer goes up by 3. Once a survivors timer runs out their aura is permanently shown to the killer. If the survivors get it to one gen remaining, normal gameplay resumes.
However, at the same time that change is made, slugging for the 4k should also be addressed. If two survivors are left and there are still gens to complete, any survivor who is downed have their bleed out timer increased by 5 times the current rate.
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@Moz said:
So what you described happens in normal games on a rare basis, not sure how the game mode has anything to do with this issue.
My guess is that given the smaller player pool size and I don't know how MMR is working with this, it increases the odds if players queue at the same time of them getting matched.
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1: I definitely think BHVR wants to keep an ever evolving game. They don't want a perfectly balanced game per se, they want perks that go in and out of usage. That fact that DbD has been able to be broken up into eras based on what was meta probably keeps the game fresh.
2: Personally I think asymmetrical games are absolutely impossible to balance on a game by game basis.
3: Given that DbD has different metas in different regions of the world (Self-Care S Tier perk in Asia!) there's no ways to balance for that.
4: Lots of DbD is a guessing game. Ultimate Weapon came out, and this shot up the value of calm spirit. This led to a decrease in the use of Ultimate Weapon. Both sides are trying to guess at what the other has.
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You could design a game around teleporting hooks, or no hooks at all, but it would be a different game and require a host of balance changes. I suspect the 'no hook' mode they proposed as one of the possible game variations is a more likely scenario.
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The thing that makes Billy different from those other killers is that his power is all he has. Alien has tunnels, Chucky has stealth, Billy has the saw and that's it. If you increased the cooldown on a miss you'd also be weakening his map mobility.
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Using toolboxes probably.
If they were cheating, no reason to run a gen rush build.
If they were cheating to hit great skill checks, they wouldn't need stake out.
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As others have said, its not tunneling unless you basically focus 100% of your efforts on a single survivor while ignoring everything else.
Even then, if its not an elimination hook, I still wouldn't call it tunneling.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640951#Comment_3640951
Okay, that's a different circumstance than the idea of chasing them around half the map.
um, no? please tell me what i should do if i chase someone 40 meters away from hook and they run to the direction of the hook and eventually to the hook itself.
Then run around the guy going for the block.
this is not always an option.
Or swing through him.
??
Or count to ten.
and survivor will kindly wait for the timer to run out so i can down them. noted.
As survivor you are accepting a consequence/risk for some type of strategic return.
this what all my post is about. with buffed ds there won't be much of a risk factor for doing those "strategic" plays.
um, no? please tell me what i should do if i chase someone 40 meters away from hook and they run to the direction of the hook and eventually to the hook itself.You hit them a second time for the trade most likely after the unhook. It may require you to dodge the other survivor attempting a body block, but all hooks have space to move around them.
and survivor will kindly wait for the timer to run out so i can down them. noted.You do have to play against the survivors. There isn't, and shouldn't be, I do X and thus I win strategy.
Let's take the scenario of you hit a survivor, they get to the hook and unhook before you can make it for a trade, and now the one with BT is bodyblocking.
If they block a doorway, count to ten.
If they don't block a doorway, try to move around them.
Or swing through the endurance, put them into a mending state, and choose who you want to chase. Is this a good of an outcome as a down, obviously not, but it shouldn't be because its a much more straight forward action.
Whatever they do you have ways to respond, and whatever you do they have ways to respond. That's what makes it a game.
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New account? Don't know whether that is financially inconvenient for you or not, but I know your MMR is really high. Bonus, you can check out what low MMR looks like with other killers and survivors and report back the horror.
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Because DS doesn't really protect you that much when you use it. It gives critical time to other survivors, but if you're playing soloq, its still going to get you eliminated. Compare this to OTR that gives stealth and anti-aura reading on top of its ability to tank a hit.
Basically: it's not going to stop you from being tunneled, it might give the other survivors time to escape, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything to a lot of players.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639234#Comment_3639234
What other strategies have been nerfed out? Are you saying 60-min genkicking getting nerfed is the reason for this current meta?
Don't forget killers had the brilliant strategy of 'just stand in front of the hooked survivor' taken away from them.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640827#Comment_3640827
True, but sometimes it needs both buffs and nerfs to increase healthy gameplay.
Sure, it's just that's not really the topic. There were a lot of killers, and some survivors, who acted like this was going to be a big nerf to the killer side.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640657#Comment_3640657
I go away from hook.
I see scratch marks.
I follow them.
In the distance I see a survivor unhooking another.
That's one example, it doesn't happen often but you would be lying to yourself to say there is no situation in which a killer can be forced to eat a bt hit even though they had 0 intention of tunneling.
Any m1 killer could start trailing scratch marks half way across the map easily and only arrive at the hook for an m1 after the unhook animation is over.
seriously, have you and ampersand never been in that scenario once.
I'm all about running bbq and going for map pressure but it's not such an impossible situation.
Also ds was a body block perk before it's nerf and by extension still is. Survivor forces down with ds, survivor has UB. Now what? Your eating something there, pick one.
Let me reiterate body blocks happen rarely to me because I am such an immensely nice killer, but they do happen and I will exempt my tunneling rule just for those people so avidly trying to take a hit when I am keeping tension alive by ignoring them.
A survivor body blocking with bt knows the repercussions and for forcing it or they are clueless. I'll take hit's on survivor when It suits me, but I know what I am doing. Complaining about it would only make me a joke.
seriously, have you and ampersand never been in that scenario once.Neither Ampersand or I replied to you though? We've been discussing the scenarios laid out by NerfDHAlready.
@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640657#Comment_3640657
because they need to trade (because other survivors slacked off/didn't play macro correctly, not killer's fault) or just want to farm the unhook; they b-line to the hook after getting hit from distance. idk why i feel like i'm talking about such a rare occurance here, do you guys actually never play killer to see at least the most common things happen when playing it or what?
ds by itself also is commonly used as a body blocking tool but i'm mainly talking about being quite safe and sound while you are abusing a basekit anti tunneling/camping mechanic when you have the perk.
because they need to trade (because other survivors slacked off/didn't play macro correctly, not killer's fault) or just want to farm the unhook; they b-line to the hook after getting hit from distanceOkay, that's a different circumstance than the idea of chasing them around half the map. Trade is different than bodyblocking, if you hit a survivor and they used the speed burst to get to the unhook, you should be able to force a trade.
idk why i feel like i'm talking about such a rare occurance here, do you guys actually never play killer to see at least the most common things happen when playing it or what?Then run around the guy going for the block. Or swing through him. Or count to ten.
Going back to your OP, none of these are 'free hits'. You have multiple counterplay options that can engage in (not to mention that specific killers have even more). Some are better than others depending on the situation, but that's how the game (and pretty much all games) works.
ds by itself also is commonly used as a body blocking tool but i'm mainly talking about being quite safe and sound while you are abusing a basekit anti tunneling/camping mechanic when you have the perk.How is it 'abusing'?
As survivor you are accepting a consequence/risk for some type of strategic return.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640653#Comment_3640653
Because killers 3gen less often?
Isnt that a good thing? Many people here contained about certain killers starting the match only to 3gen. This should be gone now.
Whether it is overall a better game is different than the question of did it buff or nerf a side.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640522#Comment_3640522
did you even read my reply? because it literally says:
bt bodyblocks don't happen only in camping scenarios, the survivor being chased can simply decide to run to hook or just farm the hooked survivor.
the survivor you chased halfway across the map brought you to hook or they tried to save a second after you hooked the person, what you do? those are survivor mistakes not me camping. does bt disable in those situations? like you talked a bunch of stuff yeah camping map pressure but i still face hittanking when i'm not camping at all. "weaponizing", "abusing" "misusing" idk how else i have to explain.
the survivor you chased halfway across the map brought you to hook or they tried to save a second after you hooked the person, what you do?If you've been chasing the survivor that long, how is it that you can't force a trade?
edit: also ds also is an anti tunnel perk :)He didn't say that OTR was the only anti-tunnel perk, only that it was the one that met the conditions you specified (where a survivor can body block for others).
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It definitely weakened survivors. Not the most massive nerf ever, but extra gen kick strength and no gen tapping are benefits the killer gets in every game, survivors will see the anti-3 gen mechanic come into play incredibly rarely.
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@Reinami said:
It is pretty easy to tell when survivors are good vs when they are not from the killer PoV. 4k hours will do that for you.
But i would be happy to review some videos from any of those content creators i mentioned. Its just what i noticed when i watched them, that most of the time otz is playing some kind of challenge, which isn't really what i'm looking for. And scott tends to meme around a lot, and i'd imagine his mmr is probably much lower because of this, vs say someone like tru3ta1ent who plays to win every single game. But tru3 isn't what i'm looking for either.
I'm here trying to improve and see if i'm doing something wrong.
It is pretty easy to tell when survivors are good vs when they are not from the killer PoV. 4k hours will do that for you.It is pretty easy to tell when you are the killer how good the survivors are in comparison to you, but I don't think that actually translates to watching other people's videos. A great killer will make good survivors look like bad survivors. So much of the game is prediction and getting a read on other players and that doesn't necessarily show up watching someone else.
The other problem is that is very easy to critique killer videos when watching them later (not that it shouldn't be done). When you are in the game it is much harder to avoid getting tunnel vision, but its easy to spot all of the missed details when watching later.
On the guidelines in your original post:
What's your definition of tunneling and camping?
What's your definition of win consistently?
A huge problem on what you are looking for: if someone got to the point where they were at high MMR and winning most of their games while playing nice, why would they keep playing? That's the point where players start doing challenges because why else would they play the game.
@WaveyTrey said:
It’s a lot to read, but here is my take…
You’re beginning to catch on to something... The only reason those streamer killers win so much without using slowdowns and tunnel/proxy camp is because…
A.) They lower their MMR when they aren’t streaming. So they match with players less experienced…
B.) They have the ability to matchmake with who they want somehow. They’ll add a few random matchmake. Then if someone truly competitive enters they dodge the lobbies. As they’ll get demolished on live. You’ll see in their lobbies the players will say “I was X survivor”.
Remember, they’re sponsoring/advertising the game. So you think that the steamers wouldn’t get any perks, or privileges from doing that?
I began to think this only because I’ve watched them play. Yes. I’m not a top tier player. With just over 2k hours. The truth being I learned A LOT just from watching the “best” players like Tru3 and Tofu; However, as I began to watch them CLOSELY…
The way that survivors play against them was never my experience after 2k hours. Against these streamer killers the survivors often make the dumbest plays. They don’t spin, or do anything to make the attacks miss. Survivors run in straight lines, not from pallet to pallet. They don’t abuse second chance perks. They fail the flashlight even when it was easy.
I’ve also seen all these big streamers chase a single survivor for over a minute many times. Whenever they did not a single generator would pop. They also take their sweet time to pickup, and hook. All while explaining something to the viewers.
If their hours and their MMR is as high as they claim… Situations like that shouldn’t happen so often... Everything the players do should be executed perfectly. A single mess up would cost the match. After 2k if I fail to execute, or did something haphazardly at least 3 survivors will escape.
Every time I chase a single survivor the rest will immediately double up on heals or gens. I repeat, only after 2k hours. The survivors are often well coordinated, and prepared. With or without comms. So I can only imagine 4k, 6k, 8k, 10k hours!!
I realized the best strategy is finding who is the weakest runner, and eliminating that player immediately before 3 generators are done. Even if it means tunneling them out. Once the players are reduced to 3 I don’t have to do anything “dirty” anymore.
Why? If 2 gens remain and there are 4 survivors alive I lose. Almost 100% of the time.
So I ask you all to watch them CLOSELY. There’s a reason viewers scream “PAID ACTORS!!”. It’s because sometimes it’s true!
So I ask you all to watch them CLOSELY. There’s a reason viewers scream “PAID ACTORS!!”. It’s because sometimes it’s true!So for this to be true:
There would have to be some type of code somewhere that gives these players separate, easier ques. Hackers almost certainly would have stumbled across this.
There would be payments and tax documentation.
Most importantly: for a game that needs 80% survivors, why would BHVR ever want to make the killer role look easy?
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640390#Comment_3640390
You know i was just toying around with the options menu and realized that there is a "matchmaking delay" that streamers can use to prevent harassment. I wonder if playing with that setting on does something to the matchmaking.
I'll do an experiment this weekend where i play 10 games with it on, and 10 off and compare results.
I'll do an experiment this weekend where i play 10 games with it on, and 10 off and compare results.You'll probably need a lot more than 10 on each if you think there is some secret to the match making delay.
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640445#Comment_3640445
I think it is more of combination of, matchmaking is horrible, and time of day/region.
For example, i live on the west coast of U.S. if i play around 7 pm - 2 am, i will win probably 95% of my games as killer, easily, going against these, what i call, "normal" survivors.
But i i play during say, the morning, or my lunch break, around 8 am - 12 pm? I get these crazy good top tier godly survivors where there is no weak link. Even if they play solo queue, they just are hella efficient and i lose 3 gens in the first chase basically guaranteed. Or, i break chase and then i lose the 3 gens slightly slower, but i end up with no hooks.
Same region as you, agree that times play a huge role, but for me the times are flipped. Evenings are my hardest matches.
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Never. If I leave a lobby its because something else came up. I rarely even look at the lobby and am instead looking at another screen.
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Zarina, off the record is an amazing perk.
Kate, you'll basically either never touch windows or use it in every build.
If you're new and playing the game for the long haul but don't want to spend money, characters and killers go on sale for half off twice a year IF they keep to the past years (anniversary and halloween). It is unknown if the characters selling for 4500 right now will be halved. That's six months away though, so it depends on your patience.
If the above is true, don't touch the shrine except for licensed perks. I bought a few perks from the shrine when I first started playing, but I ended up acquiring those characters with shards anyway.
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Disguise would probably be the most unique idea that isn't in the game, but the difference between soloq and SWF would be even more enormous than normal.
Maybe a killer who isn't even on the map at all, but instead just summons different creatures to attack the survivors. That might be a bit too much like Evil Dead: The Game though.
A stealth sniper would be easy to write lore for. Very slow moving until he tags a survivor from range and goes in for the kill, but also he has to retreat if he gets spotted before a successful shot.
A stealth infector who can dart survivors with a poison they can spread to others / causes hindrance, but they don't know they have it until it actually afflicts them (so it has a meter like the plague before injuring, during this time survivor can spread it, but they don't actually know they have it if they didn't spot the killer).
A jumper/rampager, like existed in Deathgarden, who can vault across the map.
Someone who could alter the map, changing the way loops look and the position of windows, but I don't think the engine could handle it. Would probably be a good design for Freddy.
A killer who can teleport the survivors closer to him instead of teleporting to the survivors. The way I see this is that maps would be divided up into sections and the killer could target a section and teleport all survivors there to his section, being able to stop gen progress and not having to chase them, but if chooses the wrong section he's wasted time.
A killer who randomly shifts between other killers in the game (out of control Shang Tsung). Killers whose powers need to build / be set would probably need to be excluded (Oni, Trapper), but you could have a killer shift between the various stealth, ranged, anti-loop killers.
A weapons master killer who has weapons spawn around the map that he can gather to gain more powers, but survivors can also interact with the weapons to deny them to the killer.
A killer who can move the gens around the map (move them to spots they could have spawned in, or switch completed and non completed gens). This would be a bad design, but it would be unique.
A killer that can fly and has an aerial attack, but is incredibly weak when he is on land.
An arena based killer who can draw survivors into a maze/arena where they face off. Killer could get quicker downs this way, but if the survivor escapes its wasted time.
A killer who is unable to kick / regress gens, but instead when he 'kicks' a gen he charges his power (the closer the gen is to finished, the more power he gains). He then goes into an overdrive mode like Oni when fully charged where he can rush around the map (or deploy projectiles, some type of charged up power).
A killer with no power, but he gets 8 perk slots.
A killer who has to trigger his traps. Like a combination of Hag and Skull Merchant, imagine an electric net on the ground, but it doesn't auto trigger, the killer has to actually set it off, but it instantly deals damage and hindered.
Some of those are bad, but I tried to jot down any possibility that crossed my mind.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637632#Comment_3637632
Play how you like is an understandable perspective. There's too many differing opinions to really say who should play like what. As long as its not purposefully BM and such of course.
But under that philosophy you can't really say anything when a player plays in a way you don't personally agree with. A lot of players also don't like that so they don't want to subscribe to that idea.
You can still discuss it of course, and talk about why you feel a certain way. Like we are here.
But under that philosophy you can't really say anything when a player plays in a way you don't personally agree with. A lot of players also don't like that so they don't want to subscribe to that idea.Unless you are trying to hold me in a game you're pretty much all good with (I do my best to reserve my anger at design issues for the game designers), but that isn't exactly BHVR's design philosophy. They throw a mix of elements into the game, points, pips, escapes (and whether you only count yourself or the team as your win condition) and let players sort it out however they like (and hope MMR compensates on the matchmaking). Unfortunately, its a design that breeds toxicity as it leads to different players entering a match with different perspectives on what the goal is (and then we throw archives and sweaty addons into the mix).
If you don't take it too seriously it works out as a weird sandbox type experience.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637294#Comment_3637294
"Who is saying you need to get everyone on death hook or else its tunneling? Its a long thread and maybe I missed it, but you seem to have a very extreme definition of tunneling."
Survivors have. The ones on my team, the ones when I play killer, the ones I've talked to over voice, the ones online. Everywhere I've been I've seen these type of complaints, and they're not a small amount, it's common enough. Again, in my experience. It's not explicitly "get everyone to death hook", but its close enough.
I don't care if the killer tunnels when I play survivor. So I'm going off what others define as "the tunneling problem", since I'm not the one with the issue.
As for the 10-12 hooks thing, that has been asserted as something the killer can and should aim to do in every match in this thread. Not sure if you disagree with that or not.
Not sure if you disagree with that or not.Play how you like. I have my own rule set as killer, but its just to keep the game interesting.
I think tunneling is too powerful and ruins the experience, but that burden for change should be on BHVR and not players. I just think people are talking about two different subjects, the difference between an elimination at 3 hooks, 5 hooks, and the 9th hook are so radically different that if you don't verify that the person you are responding to is using the same terminology as you you are talking past each other (this kind of happened with you and Pulsar).
Whenever I hear tunneling I think it refers more to a specific playstyle than any actual hook number. I've run into trolls who will throw tunneling out no matter the circumstance, but that's a person being a troll, not an actual argument.
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I'm more disappointed.
I feel like the 3 gen thing is something they've been working on for a long time, not realizing that the biggest problems of 3 gen disappeared with the end of overbrine and skull merchant reworks. It happens occasionally, and its really annoying when it does, but we're basically just getting a killer buff to compensate for something that rarely happens.
I'll wait on Sadako to see how she plays, but the rationale for their explanation of the changes leaved a lot to be desired.
Extremely disappointed where the Blight addons are ending up after the rework. As a survivor I like facing Blight, he's a well designed killer, the problem has always been those addons.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635935#Comment_3635935
"Does it feel good for them when gens are flying by, such as having 1-2 hooks and 3-4 gens are already done?"
Even if you're losing the match, you at least get to play it.
That's a big difference in concern. Survivors don't like playing halved matches where they don't get to do chases, or only get to do chases. Survivors are supposed to have pretty broad gameplay.
Conversely, your concern is purely that you don't like to lose sometimes.
"However something to help those who don't tunnel is better than nothing. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you don't want to accept anything unless it gets rid of effectively all tunneling completely. I would say having something to help or incentivize more people to not tunnel is better than what we have now, which is nothing."
The only thing that would work as an incentive, however, is something that would be stronger and easier than tunnelling. To put it into perspective, someone once suggested to me to give survivors a permanent -33% repair speed penalty for their first hook, which goes away when a survivor dies.
I had to point out that that still would be weaker than tunnelling, since that can, with decent pacing, drop progress speed to 0% in three hooks, as opposed to 67% in four.
Whatever you come up with as a solution to killers using 'the optimal strategy' would have to make them even stronger.
Ultimately, you're just asking to buff killer and/or nerf survivor, while the former is already doing better.
'Or else we'll tunnel.'
Conversely, your concern is purely that you don't like to lose sometimes.I wanted to say that was really well put.
If the survivors play optimally the game is unfair for the killer.
If the killer plays optimally the game is boring for the survivors.
Unfair is definitely an issue, but boring far outweighs it.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636123#Comment_3636123
That makes sense to me but others don't see it that way apparently.
If you need to tunnel to stand a chance you don't deserve that MMR and you're boosted. The game is balanced to the point you can go for 10-12 hooks every match with players on your skill level.
Incentives don't work, only punishments.
Not my words, just what has been expressed to me in the thread.
If you need to tunnel to stand a chance you don't deserve that MMR and you're boosted. The game is balanced to the point you can go for 10-12 hooks every match with players on your skill level.Incentives don't work, only punishments.Not my words, just what has been expressed to me in the thread.Who is saying you need to get everyone on death hook or else its tunneling? Its a long thread and maybe I missed it, but you seem to have a very extreme definition of tunneling.
This is the problem with threads like this where people talk about tunneling without clarifying what they mean. People who favor the killer side seem to think the survivor side is asking that everyone be hooked twice before anyone is killed. Survivors meanwhile are usually saying that its a problem if the killer just hooks the same player 3 times in a row and ignores everyone else.