crogers271
crogers271
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Like @Nazzzak said, it would likely lead to more trolling. The HUD is meant to allow survivors to potentially work together, not as a way to access the way the other survivors played. They could add something to the HUD where a survivor was in a locker and something was happening (i.e. Head On), though I doubt they'd do something like when there are lot more major additions to do.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3681480#Comment_3681480
That’s right, that’s why I’d like it removed and the game balanced around that.
What exactly is being removed? I'm not sure based on the prior posts and don't want to make a guess.
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@Yharwick said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3680969#Comment_3680969
I disagree if you look at comp DBD tunneling and camping is pretty much a guarantee because creating the 3v1 as quickly as possible is the best way to get momentum and yet at the same time 3ks and 4ks are nowhere near as common as they are in public games.
Because let's be honest the average person in pubs will last 15 seconds in chase unless they're against an absolute baby killer. How is this fair for the killer when they lose in either scenario? If they try their hardest they're a baby stomper tryhard but if they hold back the game gets stale because they can't actually try and maybe the survivors escapes and it's ggez killer from survivors who normally would would never escape and think their CoL/Flashbang/Residual/Blast Mine build actually did something for once.
We need a mode for survivors and killers who try and know the game at a deeper level aren't demonized.
We need a mode for survivors and killers who try and know the game at a deeper level aren't demonized.There's also the problem of where you draw a line. It's not really two camps, more of a spectrum of where players fall. There's a lot of ground between 4 person call out SWF and soloq running random builds.
@Yharwick said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3681057#Comment_3681057
Put a 1.5x multiplier on the end of season BP and throw in some banners and charms, that should do it.
But how does that actually get competitive players? That just sounds like it gets the players interested in the multiplier/charms.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3680969#Comment_3680969
I gotta disagree. The vast majority do it because they feel forced to, not for an easy win. The large majority of people do not want to do those things at all. Of course "easy win" people will always exist, but that's a minority. Every single person I know who plays DBD would never do any of that again if they felt it was never necessary.
What it takes to win and wanting an easy game are very different things that people tend to use synonymously.
The vast majority do it because they feel forced to, not for an easy win. The large majority of people do not want to do those things at all.But as long as there are some players who sweat in the hypothetical casual que, it requires the other players to sweat to have a chance. Whether players are sweating out of a power fantasy, as @Seraphor says, or they are responding to people who are doing it, still results in the same thing.
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Slugging is part of the game, its all good.
It's not that much of a downside for survivors. Instead of being on the hook, you lay on the ground, and someone still needs to save you, and now you don't have a hook state. If you run unbreakable with it then you can really counter the bleedout.
I've tried running into the basement a few times without this perk just to see if the killer bleeds me out thinking I have it. Unfortunately, no success.
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Most killers can 3 gen pretty easily. Trapper can lock down the area, Huntress can find a central position, Blight, Wraith, and Nurse can rush back and forth between gens.
3 genning is just really powerful because it removes the killer's main disadvantage by narrowing the scope of the playing field.
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@Nebula said:
I see this brought up so often whenever kill rate is brought up, with many pointing out that kill rate doesn't equal win rate, and while yes, that's true, I don't think a lot of people actually understand what this means or look further into it. I wanted to clarify this topic that I see quite often when discussing statistics in this game.
Here's a breakdown of the actual statistics at play based off the stats we've received.
Now without getting too in depth about combinatorics, here is what the "win rate" for killer currently looks like based off the 60% kill rate benchmark that has been set by the devs:
- 0 kills (loss for killer): Probability = (1 - Survivor escape rate)^4 = (1 - 0.4)^4 = 0.1296
- 1 kill (loss for killer): Probability = 4 * (1 - Survivor escape rate)^3 * Kill rate = 4 * (1 - 0.4)^3 * 0.6 = 0.3456
- 2 kills (draw): Probability = 6 * (1 - Survivor escape rate)^2 * (Kill rate)^2 = 6 * (1 - 0.4)^2 * (0.6)^2 = 0.2304
- 3 kills (win for killer): Probability = 4 * (1 - Survivor escape rate) * (Kill rate)^3 = 4 * (1 - 0.4) * (0.6)^3 = 0.3456
- 4 kills (win for killer): Probability = (Kill rate)^4 = (0.6)^4 = 0.1296
Based off this data, currently killers are seeing a "win rate" of 0.4752 or 47.52%. This is where I feel so many people get lost. They see this win rate of less than 50% and assume that the games still not balanced for killers because true balance would be 50/50.
Draws are often forgotten and possibly purposefully overlooked in these scenarios.
The current outlook for killer currently has them at a 70.56(!)% chance that they achieve a 2k or better in a match. This data for escape rates and kill rates were taken over an average of hundreds of thousands of matches. Sure, it's not fully representative of what will actually happen in your given match, that's the nature of statistics, but this is what the entirety of the games outlook currently is.
Feel how you want about draws, but to completely invalidate them as a meaningful statistical outcome is misleading to this discussion. 2 kills, 2 escapes is a completely respectable match outcome for both sides and for it to be thrown out of the discussion for personal feeling is arbitrary.
TLDR: Killer currently has a 70.56% chance of achieving a 2k or higher in the average match.
Okay, the numbers don't make any sense with the other sources of data we have.
Nightlight currently has data for ~45k games over the last 28 days with the most common outcome being a 4k, then a 0k, then 1k and 3k pretty close together, with 2k being the rarest. This I think is rather uncontroversial that the ends of the spectrum are the most common occurrence, but you have them as the least common occurence.
Basically, I don't get why you think those formulas apply to DbD.
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@Sava18 said:
Name a really good comp team who in the last few years played full meta(best items, best perks), with clock callouts and using everything at their disposal to win the game.
What you want would require four exceptional players to queue up contently together like they are playing a real e-sport game with 100% focus and coordination while running the best stuff every single game. How viable does that sound when you read it out loud in a assym like dbd?
Also no one talks about how blight had his add-ons significantly nerfed near the end of the win streak, if I am not mistaken after 1700?
I don't know momo and I don't stand for him whatsoever. But you just have to think how many more factors there are in the game for a survivor team to lose the game compared to killer by nature, not balance. But again I literally haven't heard of a team performing what I said at the start of my reply in my 2 and a half years of playing dbd.
But you just have to think how many more factors there are in the game for a survivor team to lose the game compared to killer by nature, not balance.What's the difference? The fact that survivors have multiple factors working against them that the killer doesn't seems like it should be a balance issue.
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1: Coding, more things can break.
2: Balance, more obstructions make it easier for survivors to hide.
3: Design: Most maps have some type of buildings, buildings tend (not always) to be built around flattened land.
4: Fun: It might be neat to play a map once with a a large hill, but such a dominant feature would get boring really quickly.
5: Powers, killer powers rely on elevation. This is a coding issue, but also balance. If artist's power does not take into account elevation, she's a lot weaker. But if the coding is changed that she does, she becomes stronger on a lot of maps.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
Does anybody know why these Hex perks share the same token requirements? Is doctor solely keeping HHL in such a bad state? Devour Hope is better in literally every single way.
It provides haste per hook after 2 hooks, it provides insta down after 3 hooks, it has built in slowdown because as soon as it’s revealed survivors stop working on gens to find and cleanse it and it allows you to insta kill people regardless of hooks.
Meanwhile HHL is lit from the start just like Devour and is essentially useless unless going against streamers/ New people. I’ve used HHL in 10 games and received a total of 8 missed skill checks. I feel like it needs a change tbh.
The entire game is filled with stronger and weaker perks. Some perks just aren't that good or get their strength from taking the other side by surprise.
@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3678604#Comment_3678604
Wraiths perks too! Imagine if bloodhound let you see pools of blood through walls up to 32 meters? It would go from F Tier to S Stier
If you could see blood trails at 32 meters your screen might get so overloaded with information that it would make playing the game difficult.
BH serves a purpose in helping new players.
It's also not really F tier even if its not that strong, it can be used with either sloppy and a hit and run build or a dedicated tunneler - the extra time those blood trails last can be very useful.
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@Hexling said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3678428#Comment_3678428
well that's what it gave me so idk what else to tell you.
Well, its not evidence of the strength of the perk, we have the actual percentages. You just got really unlucky and/or found a bug.
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@Æthereal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654663#Comment_3654663
Sorry for the long delay, didn't see this reply. As for what could cause the win rates to not be approximately the same between BHVR stats and Nightlight stats, newer players are probably not using it, and therefore raising the win rate, if they're losing, or lowering it, if they're winning. Anyone who's not using it would also probably be affecting it in some way, too. It does seem to be more reliable than I was expecting, though.
This is also valuable info, though.
As for what could cause the win rates to not be approximately the same between BHVR stats and Nightlight stats, newer players are probably not using it, and therefore raising the win rate, if they're losing, or lowering it, if they're winningSure, but that's a general reason why nightlight stats might in general be wrong.
As an example: If DbD said SM had a kill rate of 70% and nightlight had it at 45% we could use logic to try and figure out the discrepancy - for example the idea that nightlight is likely gathering just high MMR data.
But if one aspect of Nightlight and BHVR's stats line up, in this case the kill rates, why wouldn't the other elements line up? Mathematically this would require the skew of games (0k, 1k, 2k, 3k, 4k) to be very different on Nightlight than it is in general, but that the different skew still achieving pretty much the same kill rate. I think that is highly unlikely.
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This is my favorite topic on the forums.
Survivor for me.
Reasons why not killer for me.
1: I can't get eliminated. There's no single moment in the game where I get caught that I stress about.
2: Bully squads don't annoy me. I'm not thrilled when I get matched against them, but some killers react like its the worst experience in gaming.
3: Some games are so easy that I usually go in with a relaxed attitude. If it turns out I should have been taking the game seriously and am now way behind, no worries.
4: I rarely feel like I truly lost. One kill? Partial defeat. 4 escapes but lots of hooks, fun game. Hit a really strong SWF? Adjust my expectations.
5: I avoid meta builds so I'm playing with a handicap.
6: Winning decisively as killer is boring. I feel like I'm just mopping up/going through the motions to end the game.
7: I feel no connection to the killer role. I dislike playing villains in video games and dislike being the power role.
Reasons why it is survivor for me (100% soloq player)
1: Others mentioned being able to blame your teammates, my feelings are the reverse. If I let myself down in something, well things like that happen, but I feel like trash if I let other people down. If I screw up a chase I don't feel bad for myself, I feel bad for the others.
2: No matter how good the game is going, it always feels like it can turn around. I never feel like we're safe until the gate is open.
3: The elation of victory corresponds with the game ending. By the time I realize that I / others will escape, we are actually escaping. The game actually has a climatic moment.
4: The crushing of defeat also corresponds with the game ending. Getting eliminated from a game is really tough and just getting caught on the edge of a vault while on death hook is a devastating feeling.
5: The not knowing as survivor is intriguing. Even if I'm just sitting on a gen and someone else is in chase I have no idea how that chase is going to go.
6: Easy to have long losing streaks as survivor, that makes the escapes much more worthwhile.
7: I feel a much stronger connection to the survivor role.
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@Hexling said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677646#Comment_3677646
236 hook attempts... so like 40 games
236 attempts, @popoles can correct me if I mess this up, but I think that's like 1 in 74 million (0.000000036).
Not quite as unlikely as winning the lottery, but still not really reflective of what the perk will give you.
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I've done it at least once, I think twice, and have seen a couple of games where other survivors pulled it off.
Other than the killer intentionally camping the hook, the only other times I've seen it is when the killer runs back and forth in front of the survivor thinking a rescue is coming, but no rescue is happening because the hooked survivor has kindred.
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@Hexling said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677470#Comment_3677470
whelp then I didn't get off the hook with a 0.00134% cause I did it as a test. Also the % doesn't stack so if you have 6 attempts and each is 7 % its 7% each time it doesn't add on itself to a 42% it finally worked on my 236th try so figure the odds for that and that was the percentage. call it what you want bad rng bad luck I don't know but it worked after the 236th try.
Is this 236 unhook attempts or 236 games? Because if its the latter did you devote like 50 hours of your life to this test?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676754#Comment_3676754
that has nothing to do with the actual draw. Killer outcome is disconnected from survivor outcome, since this is not a team based game.
that is something I disagree with. even in regards with MMR system.
I think that the result should be based on number of survivors escaping.
For example :
0 kills
All survivors gain MMR.[25 MMR gain] -> This value is multiplied by 2x if outside rating scope.
1 kill/3 escape
Survivor A: loses no mmr(but gains no MMR)
Survivor B, C,D: Gain MMR[20 MMR gain]
2 kills/2 escapes
Survivors A & B lose no mmr[but gain no mmr]
survivors D & C Gain MMR[15 MMR gain]
3 kills/1 escape
Survivors A/B/C lose MMR. (20 MMR)
Survivor D Gains no MMR
4 kills
All survivors lose MMR. (25 MMR) -> Doubled when rating is outside scope.
From an objective stand-point in my system, you need to gain 3 kills or 4 kills as killer to gain MMR(Win) and all other results are considered losses.
With how current system of MMR works, where dying = loss and escaping through exit gate = win. your encouraged to play selfishly. In my system, you would be encouraged have as many survivors escape as possible.
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Your drawing is correct in current system because if you kill two survivors[lose 20 MMR] and two survivors escape[killer loses 20 MMR], you gain net 0 MMR which is a draw but that is not reflective game result. Survivors escaping through exit gate should be counted as a win and killer should be getting a loss.
I mean your suggestion, other than the 2k, is not that far off the mark on how it works right now. A survivor who escapes with the other three dying gains very little, and the survivor who dies when the other three escape loses very little, you are just changing very little into a 0.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677363#Comment_3677363
Not that it's too strong, that it's unhealthy.
It allows for too much trolling, I think. I don't like perks that encourage that. Ie, Boil Over.
It allows for too much trolling, I think. I don't like perks that encourage that. Ie, Boil Over.I'm curious how you see it as trolling, though maybe we have different definitions of trolling.
With boil over / sabo and/or right map the survivors can just stick the killer in an unwinnable position. Survivors never have to advance their objective because the killer can't really advance theirs. Wicked means a team can focus all on gens and never even worry about unhooks because everyone just makes sure to go down in the basement.
That seems incredibly powerful, perhaps too powerful, but the killer is still getting hook states and those free unhooks are going to run out quickly.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676565#Comment_3676565
Cooperating on the invocation makes it even less efficient. Do NOT have more than one person on it.
I think the idea is that if a team rushes there off the start efficiency isn't an issue. We talk about efficiency because its survivors ability to do gens vs killer ability to get hooks. But if all the survivors are in the basement and the killer is just running around searching for a survivor with no chases happening efficiency becomes irrelevant (e.g. it doesn't matter how slowly you progress your objective if the other side doesn't progress their objective at all). Hypothetically the survivors could do a non-regressable 10% off every gen before the killer ever did anything meaningful.
Of course, its still a garbage perk, because in the above you now risk the whole team getting caught in the basement + even if you pull it off you now have a survivor permanently broken.
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@Hexling said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676468#Comment_3676468
I don't think so all my friends want to play but say the game is unplayable because of tunneling the 2 matches they don't get tunneled they have a lot of fun. When the killer tunnels they just want to go play cod. Its not that complicated a game that has 100k players boom in from 20k should have a better player base the problem is not the content like games like new world or pal world the problem is that this game became to sweaty.
When the killer tunnels they just want to go play cod.But how would a point based perk/addon system change that?
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676076#Comment_3676076
And suddenly mmr matters.
A 2k is a loss because you didnt win and theres no other team that didnt lose.
It'd be different if the scoring officially was like in IdV but it isnt. (3+ escapes as win for all survivors)
A 2k is 2 survivor wins, 2 lossses and a killer loss.
A 2k is a loss because you didnt win and theres no other team that didnt lose.A 2k is a win because you didn't lose and there's no other team that didn't win.
If you want to throw out draws the above makes as much logical sense as the rationale for 2k being a loss.
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@Hexling said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676332#Comment_3676332
Ima tldr but having a stable player base is bad that's why I said grow.
Ima tldrThat's fine, but its kind of hard to have a discussion on the pros and cons of game design without at least a few paragraphs.
but having a stable player base is bad that's why I said grow.It's a live service model, a stable player base is a good place to be.
I'd also say growth is just generally unrealistic. The game engine is old, the code and graphics take prior generation consoles into consideration. If there was to be a surge in players it would require a substantial redesign of many elements. Which will happen inevitably, (I imagine like 5 to 10 years) but if we're talking that level of change we're way past a point based perk system.
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@Alcuin said:
These two, in particular, are playing by their own rules by having one foot in the FPS genre (range attcak) but not the other ("close enough" isn't supposed to grant max damage). The shotgun user that clips the outer right thigh of the opponent should not be doing the same damage as the shotgun user that reliably gets headshots. Skill's rewarded and you're given what you've earned.
In DBD, some hits are more equal than others (outside of one shots, Legion, Trickster's knives). The beach ball projectile that clips the border of your Survivor's capsule-shaped hitbox is worth a health state as much as a direct, centered melee attack. One hit is true and the other is given the benefit of the doubt. If the hitboxes are not going to change, maybe it's time to register these really fringy projectile hits as partial damage like Trickster's knives and only reward direct hits with full health states.
And concerning the new Killer, if Unknown's design had been based on a rogue military general with a grenade launcher and not a goofy neon pink orb, the power would be really hard to defend. When Nemesis was teased, there was speculation that he'd have an RPG. People figured it would be OP, though, even if he could only tier up to the power on occasion like Myers or Oni. There's a short cooldown for Unknown.
DBD, at its core, is a slasher game and not a shooter game. Huntress and Unknown are playing in an FPS world with DBD rules, though, and it feels cheap. This update is about them. 10 hatchets on new gen or MnK, there's no reward at the end for the Survivor. You're going to go down even if you dodge 8 hatchets in a minute. Same thing for the orb attack. 95-99% of the playerbase will be better playing as Unknown than playing against him. It's like playing Zero Build Fortnite without a weapon going against an opponent with a grey grenade launcher. The venom is not that good but it's still going to down the Survivor pretty quickly. Especially when people learn all the angles and nuances of the power.
The shotgun user that clips the outer right thigh of the opponent should not be doing the same damage as the shotgun user that reliably gets headshots.Not a fan (or old enough to remember?) the joy of License to Kill mode in Goldeneye?
FPS games can focus on damage to particular areas because that is what the entire skill expression is based around. If the games didn't have different damage levels there wouldn't be much to play for. But even within that genre it is handled differently, some games have detailed hit systems (leg hit slow a character) while others just go with health pools and basic areas (example: I think Overwatch does a headshot multiplier, but otherwise it doesn't matter if you hit a target center chest or catch the bottom of their foot). The level of detail is tied to how many other things are going on in the game - if its a game where the skill expression comes from abilities and skills it doesn't necessitate a detailed targeting system.
When Nemesis was teased, there was speculation that he'd have an RPG.Wait, did anyone ever actually believe that? I always thought it was a joke.
10 hatchets on new gen or MnK, there's no reward at the end for the Survivor. You're going to go down even if you dodge 8 hatchets in a minute. Same thing for the orb attack. 95-99% of the playerbase will be better playing as Unknown than playing against him.Whether the new Huntress is too powerful or not (I think too powerful) is a different question - and being able to become proficient in a killer more quickly than learn the counterplay against them is pretty much true for every killer in the game.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676339#Comment_3676339
If you put the number of kill are 0-3-3-3-3, so yes, 4 wins and 1 lose.
I tried with various number, the lowest one is 2 loses, 2 wins and 1 tie. Which means 50/50 win and lose. While that is the highest win rate possible for survivors.
Given the 60% kill rate:
If you aren't factoring draws at all, I think the highest hypothetical survivor win rate is 53.5%. Over a 100 games that would be 46/47 4ks and 54/53 1ks. Alternatively the highest hypothetical killer win rate could be 80% (I said 75% above, but that was for 20 games) - over 100 games that would be 80 3 ks and 20 0 ks.
If you consider a 2k a survivor win (which I don't, but just for the sake of math), the highest hypothetical survivor win rate becomes an 80% as well (80 2ks and 20 4 ks). Of course if you consider a 2k a draw, this means you can use the same numbers to create a scenario were a 60% kill rate means a 0% survivor win rate.
Of course those are all just hypotheticals. Logically none of those ever happens and your point is correct that higher kill rate logically leads to higher win rate.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676308#Comment_3676308
killer consider themselves winning when they kill 3 out of 4 survivors or or 4/4 survivors. They lose whenever 4 people escape, 3 people escape or 2 people escape because in all of those instances, the survivors powered exit gate and exited the trial. I am going ignore the 1 escape exit gate and 1 hatch scenario.
60% kill-rate /= 60% win-rate.
I can get
5 games of 4k and 5 games of 2K. This gives me a 50% win-rate with 75% kill-rate
OR
I can have
1 game of 0 kills
2 games of 1 kills
1 game of 2 kills
5 games of 3 kills
1 game of 4 kills
This averages to 23/40 for 57.5% kill-rate and 60% win-rate. Kill-rate is misleading for killer. It says very little for how good a killer is.
killer consider themselves winning when they kill 3 out of 4 survivors or or 4/4 survivors. They lose whenever 4 people escape, 3 people escape or 2 people escape because in all of those instances, the survivors powered exit gate and exited the trial. I am going ignore the 1 escape exit gate and 1 hatch scenario.But why do you just get to add that separation between one and two survivors escaping? Like you can consider 2 survivors escaping a loss as killer, you can consider any survivor escaping a loss as killer if you really want to, but its not the actual metric.
This averages to 23/40 for 57.5% kill-rate and 60% win-rate. Kill-rate is misleading for killer. It says very little for how good a killer is.If we're just talking on a purely hypothetical level, you can also get a win rate that higher than 60% (as high as 75%) with a 60% kill rate.
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@Hexling said:
I've been thinking a lot these past few weeks and I really think this might be the only true solution to fix the game and put it in a good spot. tried brainstorming for hours with multiple people but this just makes the most sense.
I really think this might be the only true solution to fix the game and put it in a good spot.So let's start with the premise: is DbD in a bad spot? The video highlights content creators expressing frustrations and a host of negative reviews at the end.
On the other hand, it has had a stable player base for a few years, the overall review trend still seems to be positive, and by all accounts from the Devs they find the game to be in a very healthy place (which probably is a polite way of saying 'making money').
The game is stagnant and likely on a slow decline, but I think it is highly unlikely that you could change that with a game of DbD's age. If they did think they could rework the game into a much more popular version I suspect it would be in a DbD 2 system.
Okay, so just as a hypothetical, would a point based system be better?
It comes up from time to time, I've suggested it myself. It definitely has appeal. Balancing the game would probably be easier, but not quite as easy as the video makes out. It would likely destroy the idea of a meta and create more build variety.
However I think there are a number of negatives that would also occur:
1: It's just not DbD's Design - One of the appeals of DbD is that it is not like other games. This means they buck a lot of conventional wisdom, which causes frustration, but also allowed them to create a very unique game.
By design, players are allowed to play sweaty builds that are superior to other builds. Like the different rarity addons for example - obviously some are superior, but the balancing metric is supposed to be their rarity. Now, I loathe the way addons work more than I could describe here, but the way blood points and character advancement work the game is built around that concept. You'd have two different balancing metrics running into each other.
The other factor is that BHVR has much more confidence in the MMR system than most of the playerbase does. Let's say we had a player who was a six (ten point scale), they could make themselves a 5 or 7 on the build and MMR would sort them out. Okay, obvious question, why let them make themselves weaker or stronger in the first place? Arguably, it creates game variety.
The other day playing survivor I got matched against a Skull Merchant who used a map offering and a build specifically meant for that map - as a player they were pretty bad and it was clear they were only there because of the build. But this also means I have games were I hit perkless Nurses/Blights who are amazing players but are handicapping themselves. Now maybe the perk variety created by a point system would be superior to this, but I could easily see it stagnating.
2: DbD is a guessing game - This to me is the biggest issue and one I think a lot of people miss. Many perks (and playstyles for that matter) gain their power based upon a presumption of what the other side will do. Now, this is true for any game, but in DbD it is a massive game component. It's why self-care is an S Tier perk on Asian server and USA and Europe looking at it as throwing the game because the approach to the game is very different (thus trying to ascribe it a point value would be very difficult).
This means a meta is not inherently problematic so long as it can be countered. Saboteur is a pretty bad perk, but if the killer ends up running Pain Res it can become very strong as you can deny an early pain res (and potentially a hook entirely). Calm Spirit and Distortion are either incredibly powerful or useless depending on the killer build. The value of perks is totally related to the probability of what is brought on the other side - that means many perks can't be balanced without the concept of certain perks being stronger or weaker.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674754#Comment_3674754
The game is specifically designed with no communication in mind. SWF being planned from the start was necessary, as evidenced by the lobby shopping that happened in the short time before its introduction in 1.0.3 kinda proved. If comms were intended, there would have at least been some consideration to adding comms to the game, either text/voice/both, but its always a stanch NO.
SWF was always intended to be in the game, but it was never the intended target for balancing the game. its a 1v1v1v1v1 after all apparently.
SWF was always intended to be in the game, but it was never the intended target for balancing the game. its a 1v1v1v1v1 after all apparently.Not related to the merits of whether SWFs, should be shown or not, but I think the above is incorrect.
I think many people believe that BHVR has a single target for how they balance the game (which would be very reasonable). I think BHVR's intent is much more to balance around multiple aspects - the players who play for themselves, the SWFs, the sweats, high mmr, mid mmr, low mmr, etc. They aren't looking to make sure things are completely fair in any of those tiers, so long as there isn't something that completely breaks the game at any tier.
This is why the balancing can sometimes feel like a muddled mess, but potentially might also be why the game has had such longevity.
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@FunkadelicPeach said:
Survivors vs Killer. 4v1. always 4x more people than killer experiencing any given match. THESE are the players you should be catering to. The people who experience MORE of the game should be getting the 60% escape rate. The justification I have seen around the 40/60 killrate-vs-escaperate is laughable, at best. "We want the killer to seem powerful and scary"... Then make the game more scary and fun? Don't balance the game to be less than 50/50? Why is it that the majority of the player base is experiencing losses more often than wins? This makes no sense to me. This is the only game I've ever experienced where I have put in 1000 hours and my win rate is still below 50% (and will remain so, because the developers coddle the killer player base). Please consider balancing for your majority player base and get those numbers closer to 60/40. If that is unacceptable and you still need to coddle to solo-players with a power complex, then at least make it 50/50.
This game has gotten exponentially less fun for survivors, unless you are coordinated and playing with a team. I have been playing for roughly 2 years and I am so sick of each update making killers more and more powerful with no addressing issues that have been plaguing the game forever. Gen rushing, tunneling, map balance, vault speed, heal speed, slugging, etc etc etc. Not addressing core issues like slugging and tunneling (and even hook camping, still (proxy)) seems to be blatant disregard for the fun and majority of the player base. These are issues that could be at least temporarily resolved with simply adjusting some numbers (such as base kit BT, Base kit unbreakable, and base kit kindred).
These issues are annoying enough for seasoned players, but the fact that perks like bond, unbreakable, and windows of opportunity are not base kit is horrible for new players as well. The amount of times I have tried to introduce a friend to this game only to play for OVER an hour and not get a single escape is not acceptable.
The game has gotten so unbelievably frustrating to play for survivors (but even killers, from some community members, I hear), especially with this new update. Weaving spiders is a joke and a horrible perk design, the double pallets and main building on the new map are horrible, and the new killer is incredibly overpowered (speed, teleporting, etc).
I know for a fact this post will be called out by a bunch of mid-ladder killers who feel the need to "win" every game. 1 kill and 2 kills isn't enough. Gotta get all 4 and then leave the last guy to bleed out on the ground while tea-bagging him... That's the thing, right??? Look - When the killer gets to "win", it's dynamic. It's subjective. You could feel good about getting 1 kill if it was a guy who was really good in chase. But with survivors, every person who doesn't get to escape is a real player who is experiencing a "loss".
The inability to guarantee yourself an escape no matter how good you are vs the ability to get at least 1 kill no matter how BAD you are, is stark and easily observed.
The easiest thing to speak to this is how decent killer players can get 50+ 3k/4k streaks in a row, but there is no way to guarantee a 50 (or even 10) streak with 3+ survivors escaping, even with SWF.
Fix this! Most killer players seem to have an ego and power complex issue. I feel as though they are likely being coddled simply because they are the "powerful" presence in the community. They are the ones who have (more of) the ability to be toxic, dictate the sportsmanship of the game, and be a demanding, loud, and uncooperative presence on the forums.
I totally understand this post has a lot of "us vs them" language, and a lot of visible frustration. While some of this may be me just venting my feelings and frustration as someone who has devoted a ton of time to this game, I do believe some of it is also a fair critique. I hope readers can pick and choose what they believe to be a valid critique rather than writing off the whole post/discussion simply because I've been the victim of some really horrible games tonight, and I'm frustrated with the game, lol.
The justification I have seen around the 40/60 killrate-vs-escaperate is laughable, at best. "We want the killer to seem powerful and scary"Well, its a little more than that. The tension from playing survivor comes over the escape. There is lots of deadtime as survivor where you are on a gen, on a hook, etc. where the excitement comes from wondering if you can actually escape. I love survivor and even when I'm on a gen I'm really tense because I know it doesn't take much at all to swing the game in the killer's favor.
I think the game is too tilted in favor of the killers at the moment, but I feel like if I was winning more than 50% of my games as survivor I'd probably find something else to play.
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@Zaydin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673983#Comment_3673983
Yeah, the problem with that is that knowing what Killer you are playing against means you can literally tailor your build to hard counter the Killer. That's why survivors don't see who the Killer is.
All Killers seeing how many survivors in a lobby are in a premade does is tell them how many are in a premade. It is information that does not give the Killer an advantage over survivors.
How about showing a value of addons the killer is running? Say it lets the survivors know whether the killer is running a brown and a yellow, or two iris. It certainly isn't fun to be in soloq and hit a killer running double iri with a group of survivors bringing no gear.
@Zaydin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674008#Comment_3674008
So I should be forced to play rigged games then? Because a full SWF has the game rigged in their favor.
You are always playing a rigged game, by design the game is in the killer's favor.
@Zaydin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673988#Comment_3673988
And that somehow changes the fact that a four man SWF is simply just not fun to play against?
Every single person on this forum has things they find unfun that other players find fun.
The math is simple: showing SWFs would lead to substantially more lobby dodging which would result in more players stopping playing the game than allowing it to continue as is.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673819#Comment_3673819
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673843#Comment_3673843
There is a difference in countering something and preventing it. The heal tech can be prevented not coutered - tunneling can be countered not prevented.
Also, this "just win before the gates are opened" argument is pretty weak. I said it before but I'll repeat myself: The game isn't over until it's over. That survivor has not escaped yet. This is a slippery slope. Because then we could also argue that Devour Hope shouldn't be a hex perk and it wouldn't be an issue. After all; "jUst WIn bEfORe iT hApPenS" could be applied here as well.
There are some things you simply won't be able to prevent other than by winning before they occur. This doesn't mean, that they're fine.
Also, this "just win before the gates are opened" argument is pretty weak. I said it before but I'll repeat myself: The game isn't over until it's over. That survivor has not escaped yet. This is a slippery slope. Because then we could also argue that Devour Hope shouldn't be a hex perk and it wouldn't be an issue. After all; "jUst WIn bEfORe iT hApPenS" could be applied here as well.There's a reason slippery slope is a fallacy: it just presumes we keep going in a direction with no limitation.
The argument is not: as long as something can be prevented it's an okay mechanic. That would be a silly argument.
The argument is: just because something has no counterplay doesn't mean it needs to be removed. I'd say the absolutist position that every game element needs counterplay is an incredibly weak argument. That would mean that survivors would need some type of counterplay action to stop killers from putting them on the hook.
To use your examples, there are lots of things survivors can do to prevent tunneling. But once they are on the killer's shoulder and at the hook, they have no more counterplay. Just like the killer has no realistic way to stop (counterplay) heal tech once they've got to that point (being a few meters from the gate with teammates), survivors have no realistic way to stop (counterplay) being on the killer's should a few meters from the hook.
My argument is there is nothing inherently wrong with either: just because the game can get to the point where no more counterplay is available doesn't make the situation problematic because you have to consider the entire game.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3672956#Comment_3672956
First off: You can do something against tunneling. There are perks that help you out against a tunneling killer and your team mates can also come and take hits. So that is not really the same. There is of course the option to loop as well. So you can technically counter tunneling with skill. Now try to do that against the heal tech.
Second, I'm pretty sure that tunneling actually does have a pretty big impact.
So; no, the heal tech and tunneling aren't alike.
First off: You can do something against tunneling. There are perks that help you out against a tunneling killer and your team mates can also come and take hits. So that is not really the same. There is of course the option to loop as well. So you can technically counter tunneling with skill. Now try to do that against the heal tech.I don't get the logic here. What you are saying is that there are lots of things the survivors can do to prevent the tunnel from being successful. Which is true.
But that's also true of the 'heal tech'. There are lots of things that the killer can do to prevent the heal tech situation from ever arising.
A better comparison would be if survivors said they needed some sort of counterplay when they were on death hook, already on the killer's shoulder, and within 3 meters of the hook. Yeah, they have no counterplay at that point, because they lost all their counterplay options,
Same thing with heal tech. If survivors manage to get within a certain range of the gate and if an ally that can help them, they've escaped. Just like once a killer has a survivor on their shoulder and is within a certain range of the hook rescue is now impossible. That doesn't mean counterplay didn't exist, it means that side lost their opportunities to do so.
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@Hexling said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3669165#Comment_3669165
Same reason killers needed a solution to locker saves.
I wish I could give this more than a single vote up. Very well put.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3668880#Comment_3668880
If survivors are going down quickly then the killer player is simply playing better then the team. It's not a problem that the better skilled player wins.
It's not a problem that the better skilled player wins.That would be fine if the roles had equal skill expression. To use an example later in the thread you say:
If a killer is able to get a hook, wait for an unhook, proceed to tunnel that survivor without interference, get their 2nd hook, wait for the unhook, and proceed to tunnel that survivor without interference so they finally die on their 3rd hook without a single gen getting done, then the survivor team failed to either protect their teammate or use the lack of killer pressure to get gens done.So to outplay the killer: the survivors need to coordinate whether the killer is camping or not, who should go for the rescue (because if too many go for the rescue, also a problem), potentially trade off body blocks against the killer to keep the tunneled survivor from getting downed, and generally do this all without comms.
To outplay the survivors: the killer needs to stand slightly away from the hook and charge in when the game gives them a notification the unhook happened.
This is the big problem. It's not that killers are exhibiting so much more skill than survivors, it's that the killer strategies are incredibly simplistic while a lot is asked of survivors.
And its fine to say that's the game design. BHVR's opinion, that I don't disagree with, is that making the escapes harder makes them more worthwhile. But let's not call it better skill.
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@sinkra said:
I have never encountered any other pvp game where it's possible for even the best players to win hundreds of games in a row. There are killers going on these win streaks even while using no addons or perks.
I think the hundreds / thousands of win streaks are actually a distraction from the real problem. Whenever it comes up people just go to - that must be top 0.1%. Which might be true.
I think how common win streaks of 10 to 50 are is a bigger issue. Lots of killer players, on a variety of killers, pull this off. Or how content creators have to give themselves rather extreme challenges to make killer interesting.
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Power: Lower side of mid I'd say
Enjoyability: I like him quite a lot. I feel like there is a lot more do playing the Knight than many other killers because I'm not just thinking about the chase but what guard I have available and what I should have them do.
Cons
AI: Don't expect your guards to be smart. They aren't meant to win you matches, but to harass survivors.
Bugs
Longer Matches
Survivor View: Many survivors outright hate him because they think versing him is boring.
Addons: As others have said there is one you have to use, but its brown and so you have plenty of them, but you are addon dependent. There's no Purple - Iri uber combo of Knight if that's what you are going for.
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@Yharwick said:
A lot of the discussion I've seen around Sable's perks is they're bas because they require you to go to the basement and the basement is the most dangerous part of the map and I have to say I don't really agree with that at all.
Realistically as killer unless you see someone with an aura perk or a gen is near the basement you pretty much never go in or even near the basement. You can't you just don't have time in between patrolling gens and chasing survivors. So where did this idea that going to the basement is dangerous come from?
Oh and while I'm at it for Strength in Shadow I've seen people say it's inefficient because travel time but lets be honest if that were true CoH wouldn't have needed to be nerfed to the point it no longer lets you self-heal.
I don't think the invocation is good but I do think Strength in Shadow and Wicked have quite a bit of potential and there's been a lot of misinformation surrounding them.
Realistically as killer unless you see someone with an aura perk or a gen is near the basement you pretty much never go in or even near the basement.But this assumes the game as is where survivors don't have any reason to be in the basement other than a chest (bad idea) or to hide (risky idea). The reason the basement is a good hiding spot is because it is a dangerous hiding spot meaning the killer might not bother.
It's just another form of mind games.
But if there becomes a reason for survivors to be in the basement, now killers will more likely check the basement, greatly increasing the risk of getting hit and basement hooked.
If the games changes, survivors and killers will change. I don't think it will change, because the invocation as it exists in the PTB is pretty weak.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3665962#Comment_3665962
60% kill rate isn't the same as 60% win rate. 2/5 outcomes are a lost. 1/5 outcomes is a tie. And 2/5 outcomes is a win.
If you want a 50% win rate then you need a higher kill rate to offset the fact that only 40% of outcomes are a win.
There are two incorrect assumptions here
1: That 1 out of 5 games are ending in a draw. It's probably closer to 1 out of 10.
2: That the draws are just coming out of the killer's potential win rate.
You just can't take the 20% difference between killers and survivors and attribute it to draws. Draws decrease the win rate for both killers and survivors. You are more likely looking at a scenario of: 2 out of 20 games draw (10%), 7 out of 20 games survivor win (35%), and 11 out of 20 games killer win (55%). It's possible those numbers could be a little closer together, but you are still going to have a substantially higher percentage of killer wins compared to killer loses.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3666905#Comment_3666905
Tbh, he has a point. It's the general opinion here that survivors are bad. Idk, why survivors are more bad than killers. Percentage wise you should have the same ratio. If 30% of survivors are super bad then the same is probably true about killers. Maybe like 50% is just average (now that's a word people never use here). And at 20% you have killers and survivors who do understand the game on a deeper level but only 5% or less is super good. It's only on this game where people claim one side is bad and every killer here is high MMR somehow.
I'm sure there are killers who play on the weekends only who post here and think they're high MMR and the game is survivor sided.
If 30% of survivors are super bad then the same is probably true about killers.Generally, yes, there is no reason that one player pool or the other would have better players. As a game though there are 2 issues
1: Only one survivor needs to be below the level of the killer to basically decide the game. In a 5 v 5 style game bad/good players will balance each other out. In DbD the easiest path to killer victory is finding the weakest survivor link (this is why the greatest strength of a comp SWF is the ability to ensure everyone on the team is really good).
2: The roles have differing levels of difficulty to learn. While some disagree, I've always found killer to be remarkably straightforward and very simple in terms of mechanics.
It's only on this game where people claim one side is bad and every killer here is high MMR somehow.It is one of the strangest things about this game and community.
@JustAnotherNewbie said:
It's always funny when killers ask for survivors nerfs to maps/ structures/perks and then they post proof and 9/10 times they have at least a 3k. 🤣
Really drives home their point.
It's always funny when killers ask for survivors nerfs to maps/ structures/perks and then they post proof and 9/10 times they have at least a 3k. 🤣I'm at the point I think we're all being massively pranked (ala "Chess" Merchant). This is a frequent enough occurrence where there is a post about the game being killer sided accompanied by evidence of a survivor massacre that I feel like people have to know that is immediately what is going to get pointed out. Like the games that usually accompany posts like this aren't even just close, they are totally one sided.
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Overall happy? Yes, very much.
Devs care about role? Yes. While I have disagreements with some dev decisions, it seems clear they are trying to improve all aspects of the game.
Why? DbD is unique. While I bounce between other strategy / fps / rpgs games, DbD doesn't really have anything that gives me the same type of feeling.
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@jamally093 said:
It's a question that's been on my mind.
I know you could reel a survivor in ALIVE as well the speed the spear goes and where it lands their heart would be destroyed if you instead say the intestines well they might live for you to reel in but you might also kill them trying to remove the spear.
I know it's a game but this is if you physically had his weapon.
So you have a single bullet that has to have enough force to hit this spear for it to go flying out and travel up to I'll just 12 meters now I know it won't come back to you like in the game since you would need it to travel at the same speed and somehow the gun has an auto reel in and even then the chain can't snag on anything. So my main question is if you fire it that it would actual travel up to 12 meters without the bullet possibly not able to push the spear that far it not being destroyed in side the gun as it might not have enough force and or the chain not getting snagged on anything while the spear is traveling.
Because a harpoon gun uses the same effect mostly instead using a strong amount of force but for Deathslinger its just a basic rifle bullet so in the end. Could you actual fire his gun and have this spear travel 12 meters without a problem.
So you have a single bullet that has to have enough force to hit this spear for it to go flying outDoing a little research on harpoon guns, it seems many don't use a bullet, just a blank cartridge. So you aren't physically hitting the metal hook, you are propelling it. I don't know if it is ever specified in the lore that he is specifically using a bullet.
Could you fire a harpoon 12 meters with a chain? I'd say yes. I can't find a video of people firing harpoon guns with chains, which would likely harm the already bad accuracy, but I don't think it would become impossible to fire.
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Remember that bots have wall hacks so they can't be mind gamed.
The quality of the loop is really dependent on your reflex speed. Watching comp survivors and what they consider a god pallet is very different than the majority of survivors.
I look for loops that can connect. It gives you another way to play mind games when you can leave the loop and run to another.
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I've been trying to think of ways it could be used in its current state and it seems pretty weak.
The best idea I could think of was have it for if someone is on death hook they go hide out in the basement and do the invocation. It's not a great use of their time, but better than getting eliminated.
I suspect we'll see someone try and combine it with No Mither, but that doesn't exactly make the combo strong.
Given that the perk has three problems it seems way too disadvantageous to run. You get broken, have to go to the basement, and its overall inefficient. The basement aspect isn't going anywhere, but they either need to buff it (perhaps make it less charges but make it work like BNP) or make the efficiency a better trade off.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658702#Comment_3658702
I think BHVR's intent is exactly what they said: to make the game feel like a horror game, while still keeping it relatively even. Sounds good in theory.
The problem is that in practice, I suspect it's not at all what happens in game. Possibly they accidentally broke MMR, as it still tries to achieve an illusory 50% killrate that is no longer possible due to game balance; I don't know exactly what's wrong, but having a 60% killrate while MMR still aims at 50% basically guarantees that something is wrong. It's like pushing both the pedal and brake at the same time and expecting the car to go at 50% speed. Maybe what happens, is that MMR works for some people and not for others, that would explain why some people claim to win all their games easily while others have to sweat to reach even 50%.
Additionally, killrate itself is a very questionable metric. It turns out that EVERY TIME that BHVR has shared stats about killrates in the past years, there was always at least one very ridiculous, counter-intuitive number. Just in this patch, we discovered that Sadako and Freddy have some of the best killrates, SWFs have almost the same escape rate as solos, and that lowering your MMR improves your chances of winning. Of course there are always ten logical explanations for why the chart is like it is, but there are also ten logical explanation for why it shouldn't be like that. In the end, if everybody has to interpret the chart their own way, you might as well ditch the chart.
Imagine going to the doctor to for an arm injury, and the only thing they do is monitor your temperature, then they tell you that your temperature is normal so you must be healthy: you probably would switch to a different doctor. Imagine that they attempt to fix your arm by giving you drugs that can only increase or decrease your temperature. This is what happens in DBD. People keep arguing whether the killrate should be 50% or 60% without realizing the massive elephant in the room, that almost nobody gets this killrate in practice. I don't play DBD nowadays, but I still watch streamers, and their match outcomes are always MUCH higher or MUCH lower than 60%, never close to 60%. Frequently what happens is that one day they win all their games, then the next day they go on losing streaks of 10+. Me, when I played killer back then, I would win almost every game, while I struggled to reach 30% on surv. Contrast this with almost every other game on the market, in Overwatch for example I played 1002 games and won 501, that's exactly 50% winrate, and the best players in the world have around ~62% winrate.
In the end, if everybody has to interpret the chart their own way, you might as well ditch the chart.I mean, that's just kind of the way a lot of stats work. Comparing it to sports, stats can be difficult to attribute to the player, coaching, injuries, team elements, etc. Stats do frequently need to be discussed on how the number was achieved, but there is just too much data for any of the stats to be just random.
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I don't mind it as a survivor. Escaping as a survivor feels great, far better than a win in any other multiplayer game. I doubt that feeling would be the same if the escapes were easier.
On the other hand, I generally hate it as a killer. When I win, well I was supposed to.
If it was 50/50 would those feelings balance out? No idea.
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The main thing you are giving up as survivor is the same thing you normally give up: time and risk.
Getting caught down in the basement is a huge risk by itself and the time that you spend on this perk could instead be used on a gen. Those are already sizable tradeoffs.
The idea that you could have perks were the players would sacrifice something (permanent aura revealed) for some type of benefit is a possible idea, but that's different than invocations. The main risk proposed by invocations is the basement / time aspect.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3656236#Comment_3656236
I wouldn’t say any of them are bad. They just need to be worked on/improved upon. I would have never thought of any of these. Just goes to show how it’s vital to bring in more minds to brainstorm.
I really do hope they give the game a new engine because it would really breathe in new life that the game desperately needs.
Thanks for your response.
Reading my list over, I think the idea of the stealth infector is the most feasible. Which was just kind of a random idea that occurred to me when I was writing the list.
Way I imagine it: killer concept would be someone with a blowgun or dart gun. They go into stealth mode which opens up their ranged attack and they can peak like a ghostface. If they dart the survivor, that survivor is infected.
The infection does not reveal itself to the survivor nor give any indication, but it spreads the same way as the plague. Things / people the survivor touches also become infected.
The map would have cleansing stations, if you use one and your infected, no problem you are now clean, but if you try to use one and not infected, automatic injury and killer instinct.
The killer would have to decide when they want to activate the infection. This could play out in lots of ways. The most basic would just be immediate application of status effect and/or injury, or it could be a timed thing where survivors learn they are injured and slowly get increased debuffs until they go and cleanse.
As a strategy aspect, the killer would be weak for most of the game, but if he has spread the infection around, he could trigger it and suddenly put all of the survivors in a very weak spot while he gets a series of easy downs.
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There was a post on this 3 weeks ago if you want to read through people's ideas: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3637876
I'll just copy my post from back then with a few minor changes:
A killer who could disguise themselves as a survivor, but the difference between soloq and SWF would be even more enormous than normal.
Maybe a killer who isn't even on the map at all, but instead just summons different creatures to attack the survivors. That might be a bit too much like Evil Dead: The Game though.
A stealth sniper. Very slow moving until he tags a survivor from range and goes in for the kill, but also he has to retreat if he gets spotted before a successful shot.
A stealth infector who can dart survivors with a poison they can spread to others / causes hindrance, but they don't know they have it until it actually afflicts them (so it has a meter like the plague before injuring, during this time survivor can spread it, but they don't actually know they have it if they didn't spot the killer).
A jumper/rampager, like existed in Deathgarden, who can vault across the map. Would require that certain maps never occur if selected.
Someone who could alter the map, changing the way loops look and the position of windows, but I don't think the engine could handle it. Would probably be a good design for Freddy.
A killer who can teleport the survivors closer to him instead of teleporting to the survivors. The way I see this is that maps would be divided up into sections and the killer could target a section and teleport all survivors there to his section, being able to stop gen progress and not having to chase them, but if chooses the wrong section he's wasted time.
A killer who randomly shifts between other killers in the game (out of control Shang Tsung). Killers whose powers need to build / be set would probably need to be excluded (Oni, Trapper), but you could have a killer shift between the various stealth, ranged, anti-loop killers.
A weapons master killer who has weapons spawn around the map that he can gather to gain more powers, but survivors can also interact with the weapons to deny them to the killer.
A killer who can move the gens around the map (move them to spots they could have spawned in, or switch completed and non completed gens). This would be a bad design, but it would be unique.
A killer that can fly and has an aerial attack, but is incredibly weak when he is on land. Like a jumper would require that only certain maps be in his rotation.
An arena based killer who can draw survivors into a maze/arena where they face off. Killer could get quicker downs this way, but if the survivor escapes its wasted time.
A killer who is unable to kick / regress gens, but instead when he 'kicks' a gen he charges his power (the closer the gen is to finished, the more power he gains). He then goes into an overdrive mode like Oni when fully charged where he can rush around the map (or deploy projectiles, some type of charged up power).
A killer with no power, but he gets 8 perk slots.
A killer who has to trigger his traps. Like a combination of Hag and Skull Merchant, imagine an electric net on the ground, but it doesn't auto trigger, the killer has to actually set it off, but it instantly deals damage and hindered.
Some of those are bad, but I tried to jot down any possibility that crossed my mind.
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@zarr your post is probably too long and too late to make much of an impact, but I read it and thought you were spot on pretty much everything.
A few comments:
Consider on top of this that matches with disconnects (which typically happen when survivors get demolished, or regularly mean that they will get demolished thereafter) are excluded entirelyYeah, I wonder why this doesn't get pointed out more. Survivors sometimes DC just because they don't like the killer, but lots of times its because they got downed early. Which means if they actually played it out, it likely would have resulted in a 3 or 4k, and removing those games delates the kill rate.
not only would you need to have such a top tournament team with top loadouts, but they would also have to meet a top tournament killer with a top loadout. I would not be surprised if this has not happened even just once in the history of this game.That's an interesting hypothetical. I agree that it would be vanishingly rare, but interesting to think if ever. I'll say given the propensity of people playing for streaks its probably happened where you have killers and SWFs trying win streaks running into each other, but that's really the only circumstance I can think of to get the sweatiest level of each style of play randomly matched up.
Stream sniping trying to break streaks would be the only other possibility of such a matchup, but that isn't really getting randomly matched.
killer is easier at the beginning because survivors have to proactively lead the most mechanically skill-based aspect of the game, namely chases; then survivor is easier at intermediate levels of experience because killers have to battle against mounting gen pressure; and at the advanced and expert levels killer and survivor can be said to be about equally difficult, much in dependence on killer, map and loadouts at playOne thing I'd like to add to this good point: killer and survivor are improving different skill sets. Survivors are improving reflex/response time. When looping around pallet/rock the success is going to depend basically on the survivor response time. The killer can throw mind games in, but the key is how fast the survivor can respond to them to determine whether a hook occurs. The killer, especially outside the throwers, don't have a mechanical skill, success comes down to things like game sense. Is it worth it to keep chasing around that rock, or is there some other issue that is more pressing?
It's one of the reason I think there is such a community disconnect on which role is harder/more stressful.
Skill and sweat is much more impactful on the killer side. This is simply because on the survivor side you have 4 players, which have varying levels of skill and of trying to win, with weak links of subpar players that can doom an entire match even if the other 3 players are better than the killer player, and with people not playing in earnest (i. e. not trying to win, but to do funny or stupid things, or tome challenges, or at least not trying hard to win, or just playing for hatch).One other thing I'd add, soloq also just suffers from the randomness. With camping many killers would say 'just bring reassurance'. Okay, who? If we all bring it that's a huge waste. Likewise players have different skill sets. I'm not a great looper, but I'll go crack a 3 gen from the start and bring healing skills to help the loopers. If I get paired up with other survivors with the same skill set and no one can take the killer on chase, we're in trouble. I imagine it is the same on the other side if everyone comes in geared just for chase mode.
They don't even have to have it affect 99% of the playerbase, just make the matchmaker much more strict at the highest MMR levels.I suspect the reason they don't do this: the viability and growth of the game has a lot to do with streamers. Many streamers, especially the most popular ones, are high MMR. If they had to wait the extra time stricter match making would take, it would either harm the viewership and/or move them on to other games. From a game growth standpoint I just don't think we'll stricter matchmaking around the top level.
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@Æthereal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652761#Comment_3652761
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652993#Comment_3652993
Fair point, but it seems to be the math they're using. Nightlight doesn't provide the full picture, either.
The thing about Nightlight, and I agree that they have limitations, is that when BHVR releases stats we can compare Nightlight and the ones that were released. BHVR had an overall kill rate of 58.5%, while Nightlight has it at 56.93%. So Nightlight is actually a little lower than BHVR on the kills, but they are in the same general area. So if they are in the same general area of kills, they should also be in the same area of wins, which means we can get a rough comparison between kills and wins.
If you go killer by killer on Nightlight their win rate is usually 6 to 8% lower than the kill rate. There are a couple of outliers, with Wraith, Skull Merchant, Twins, and Sadako whose win rates are only 2 to 4% lower than the kill rate. The only killer who has a higher rate is Cannibal, whose win rate is 9% less than his kill rate.
Now is it possible that BHVR and Nightlight's data lines up on the kill rates, but for some reason the win rates are wildly different? Sure, I just have no idea what would cause that. Thus it seems logical that if you have the killer's kill rate, their win rate is probably 5 to 10% lower than that. Then you'll have 11 to 16% 2ks.
Now that is two ranges with a 5% variance which isn't great, but it does roughly give you the rate of killer wins vs survivor.