crogers271
crogers271
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@Terror_Misu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033862#Comment_4033862
I could say the same. You correcting this every time just shows -you- have issues understanding. Face or not, the entire system is a fail, as everyone is STILL unhappy. Again, forest for the tress. Your incessant focus on that one thing is astonishing. But we all have our thing we do. You keep doing you.
There's also the fact that the quality of life promised more anti-camping, not more anti-face camping.
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Team based on the results (or at a minimum 50/50, 50% you, 50% overall team). I don't think it will make a significant difference, but a small one that better reflects the game.
Agree with @edgarpoop on the idea of keeping it to kills/escapes - in the long run tracking anything else would be statistically insignificant.
Conceptually I'd like them to tighten higher MMR, but I'd need more information to make a decision like that.
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I wish they let us know this with any change they made.
Was it overperforming? Either overall or at a particular MMR?
Did they feel like it was creating a gameplay issue detracting from the experience?
Was it used too much/too little and they are just trying to shake up the meta?
I think a lot of discussions would be more healthy if they actually us with the changes the factor(s) that triggered the change.
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I unfortunately missed the first week of 2v8 this time, so not as many matches as I would have liked (I've included the class breakdown as well, I'll take whatever role is needed, but think medic is my strongest):
And just for comparison, here is my all time (escape rate remaining pretty consistent):
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
Tunneling, or getting tunnel-vision. That is the definition used when the killer targets one specific survivor until they are dead/sacrificed.
Sometimes it happens right away, even at 5 gens left, and other times it is used as a last ditch measure to slow the game down.
Personally, I see this happen in around 75% of my survivor games since patch 9.3.0 dropped, because the survivor role got nerfed, once again.https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/YRSOJZHUBPW2/ikke-bruk-21-tunnelsikkerhet-tunnel-1-m.jpg
A literal tunnel, just for illustration purposes.
So, why does the killer players tunnel so much?
Is it to secure an easy win?
Is it to assert dominance?
Is it to be a jerk?
Is it out of necessity?
Or is it all of the above?Both patch 9.2.0, and the current 9.3.0 were initially meant to combat extreme tunneling, yet it got deemed that this would effectively "kill" the killer role in the process.
To this I would say NO, it won't. It is perfectly possible to win games without resorting to tunneling. As long as you can locate and engage with the survivors early on, this is not a problem.
I play a lot of killer myself. Michael Myers to be exact. An M1 based killer, who is easy to counter and is slow moving. So why do I often get 3-4K games without tunneling?
It's all about playing your cards right. Sure, you can't win every game, that would be statistically improbable. But you really don't have to resort to tunneling in order to get a high killrate. You just need to learn every strength and weakness with your killer.
Are some matches going to be close calls? Yes, of course they will. And that makes it so much more satisfying to win, knowing that you played your part well. It is much more satisfying than getting an easy win, where you effectively made the game into a 1v3 scenario at 5 gens left.
So, seriously guys (and girls), this tunnel-epidemic needs to stop. Especially the hard-tunneling part. It kills all of the fun, and makes the game incredibly monotone to play, on both sides.So, why does the killer players tunnel so much?People like to win games. Some people will avoid obviously broken elements for the sake of enjoyment, but for others its a simple case of 'what's the best path to victory?'
I really have no problem with the idea that people do it, I do have a problem when discussions (and BHVR) don't actually focus on what's the best game for as many players as possible.
Both patch 9.2.0, and the current 9.3.0 were initially meant to combat extreme tunneling, yet it got deemed that this would effectively "kill" the killer role in the process.To this I would say NO, it won't.I agree, I thought the responses where extremely hyperbolic. Kill rates could have dropped (though I think the feedback missed how much stronger non-tunneling killer players would be boosted), but it certainly wasn't going to be the 'impossible' levels some predicted.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4033509#Comment_4033509
Not being snarky, that is literally how making an argument works. Unless you can back your claim up, why should I believe this list really exists? I'll believe you if you can link to it, I can't find it. Never posted here before, so this is my main. I considered explaining why I joined but I doubt you would read it or care. You going after me and my post count instead of my arguments tells me everything I need to know.
Not being snarky, that is literally how making an argument works.Oh, I thought people won arguments on this forum by claiming to be high MMR and making ad hominem attacks on others (i.e. post count). You're saying arguments can be backed up by evidence and logic?
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what is it specifically you hate/hated about Skull Merchant?Going off the past tense here:
Monotony.
I was in a game once with the SM defending a 3 gen. We'd go to one side, repair gens, she'd push us off while the survivors hit the other side. She'd then move to them, while we went back in.
Repeat, again and again.
I knew we were going to win, barring one of us getting so bored they just quit. But it was going to take a good while to slowly work those gens up.
Who would enjoy something so monotonous?
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@steamed_hamzzz said:
I thought the whole point of the PTB was to test out changes and decide if those changes will be rolled over to the live servers?
First the devs massively nerfed M1 killers with ‘pallet density update’, a patch disguised as “quality of life” but was really a nerf to already weak killers
And now they’ve massively nerfed survivor with the new changes, making a lot of loops incredibly short and unsafe
My question is why? Why not just revert the initial change? And why wasn’t any of it tested in the PTB first? We could have avoided this entire headache if the PTB was actually utilised and the devs could have seen that neither pallet density change worked
I thought the whole point of the PTB was to test out changes and decide if those changes will be rolled over to the live servers?Conceptually, yes and no.
It should be to fine tune changes, not make radical adjustments. A few days of testing, on top of testing multiple things at the same point, is not nearly enough data. Radical changes should be extremely rare, an indication that the company badly messed up in anticipating what would make a good game, instead of being the expectation that we all have now.
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@cogsturning said:
DLCs will never shut me up because I buy almost nothing. I unlock the premium Rifts, but I recycle my auric cells from the previous one. I don't own half the licensed killers and almost no licensed survivors. I haven't gotten any money-only cosmetics. If someone has a perk I want, I wait for the Shrine to have it. This game can drain my time and my happiness, but it's not gonna drain my money.
I wonder if their player counts/player quits track things based on their spending. I'm glad there are people willing to buy cosmetics because I never would (like you I recycle auric cells, mine I got for free, and only own about half the licenses), so me leaving is not a huge financial loss. It would be interesting to know if they actually track when someone uninstalls or stops playing how big of a spender they were.
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@adam1233467 said:
People just downvoting without seeing the video proves something to me.
My worry is with how BHVR has been handling 'feedback', they see the title and the upvotes and declare all is well.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032972#Comment_4032972
The problem in my honest opinion is the following.
You will never stop tunneling. If the Killer wants to tunnel you for what ever reason (wants to win, wants pressure, just doesn´t like your name what so ever) The only thing you can do is trying to push this playstyle away by giving the other playstyle which survivors prefer (going for 12 hook) a better perspective.
Thats what I try to do with such posts. Going away from the "Give Killers death penalty if they dare to look at a hooked survivor" to an alternative way where you can say "Yeah this is still winable."
Not a single one in this forum can convince me that in the current state of the game the best Survivor team vs the best killer would be possible to go for a 12 hook game by playing "Friendly"
Thats why I don´t look at the high MMR.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032927#Comment_4032927
It seems that people didn´t understand my point on the top or I wrote it to complicated.
In my version of Pain Res every hook would trigger the perk.
Example:
Going for tunnel:
1st hook 15%
2nd hook on the same survivor 10%
3rd hook 5%.
All on the same Survivor.
Going for different hooks:
1st hook 15%
2nd hook 16%
3rd hook 17%
4th hook is it individual 23% Is it someone you hooked before but not the person you hooked last 18%
If you hook the same person twice it will lose 5% from the percentage you are currently at.
So no, I didn´t nerf pain res at all. You could even say I buffed it cause it activates on all hooks. Just with less regression when you tunnel. If you don´t tunnel you get the standard perk with extra regression.
You will never stop tunneling.I don't think you even need to (or should). It's an elimination game after all.
What makes tunneling bad?
1: If successful, the other three survivors are done for and the game becomes boring.
2: If not successful, the other survivors sat on gens and the game wasn't very meaningful.
3: The tunneled target may or may not feel that its actually a good game depending on how hard the tunnel is.
One can be fixed by boosting the 3v1, 2 can partially be fixed by the 3v1 boost making the tunnel less frequent, 3 is kind of in the same boat, but also a tricky thing to deal with, but we shouldn't throw out a possible solution because it doesn't solve everything.
The only thing you can do is trying to push this playstyle away by giving the other playstyle which survivors prefer (going for 12 hook) a better perspective.I don't think people would actually like 12 hooks if they became the norm. Part of the excitement of the game is being on death hook. It's just dumb when it gets there by the killer hyper fixating on the first target they find.
Not a single one in this forum can convince me that in the current state of the game the best Survivor team vs the best killer would be possible to go for a 12 hook game by playing "Friendly"Who is trying to?
There is a huge difference between 12 hooking and tunneling out on 3 hooks.
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@smol_nezuko said:
This will be a rather lenghty post, so I'll try to break it down into multiple parts: Intro, Concerns, Technical, Financial and Social Dilemmas.
Intro
For context, I first started playing back in 2017 for about 2 years, then took a break until August this year.
The first thought was that the core gameplay remained the same, but there were a lot of QoL improvements compared to last time I played. I was excited to see this, because this meant the game had been getting more traction (and most indie projects don’t survive for this long without financial backing).
That was my first impression. Until I got the chance to actually experience the game on my own, coupled with watching many content creators.
Note: I am no game designer/expert, so what I’ll be saying is strictly personal opinion. However I do feel like I have a reasonable common sense.
So here goes.
Concerns
I fear for the game’s future, and judging by community feedback, many of us share the same thought.
With every patch, 10 bugs get fixed and somehow another 30 appear. For instance, this patch Bubba and Billy’s chainsaws are completely silent (I thought my headset broke and had to turn the volume up a significant amount, only to be reassured by Elodie’s opera-like scream when hooked that the general volume was fine, only the chainsaw was silent).
I'm genuinely curious and intrigued at the same time - do the devs really not notice this issue?
My guess is that they probably do, but are faced with executive decissions from Upper Management wanting them to pump more and more content, to sell more DLCs, skins etc. It might be all about the money in the end. After all, this is normal practice in a privately held company.
However, it is becoming more and more evident that as time goes on, band-aid fixes can only go so far.
Technical Dilemma
I couldn't verify this information, but supposedly one of the core technical issues DBD has is its poorly structured code on which it runs. A solid infrastructure might just not be there to help.
The technical term would be "legacy software" (if we can even call it that) and its lack of scalability.
If we keep treating the symptoms and not the underlying issue, I’m not sure how much or even if the game will be salvageable anymore.
Financial Dilemma
After some research, seems like BHVR is still the primary stakeholder, with Haveli Investments, NetEase Games, Gaea Mobile, and Desjardins Capital being secondary financial ones.
This means that BHVR should still be at the decisionmaking wheel, with other stakeholders only suggesting possible directions.
Even if this wasn't the case and we supposed DBD was actually ran by the financial backers of BHVR, do the numbers not add up?
At its current state, every patch generates more and more bugs that get backlash from the community. This means that resources (executive and employee time + money) need to be spent on fixing these issues short-term ==> New Content roadmap is delayed ==> more money is delayed.
I wonder, is it really a worse decision to press pause for a second, fix what it is to be fixed and then move on?
This is just wishful thinking, I know. Legacy updgrades don't happen overnight. And for a project as massive as DBD, probably a year would be an optimistic deadline.
Still, there has to be a middle ground - keep on updating the game, reduce the amount of new content we pump out and start rewriting the code from scratch in the background. We lose money in the short term but consolidate DBD' future.
This would probably be similar to what happened to CS:GO.
Social Dilemma
Part of the reasons one works at a given company are:
- material ones (money, benefits, location etc.)
- social ones (how well you get along with your team)
- the purpose/meaning of your work (how it is met by your customers and how you relate to it yourself)
In an ideal workplace, all of those would be ticked off. But, alas such a place doesn't exist yet.
"What the heck is this dude going with this and what does this have to do with DBD?" you might be wondering.
Please, try and picture yourself in the following situation. As an employee, you try your hardest, you do whatever it is in your power to do the work you're (hopefully) passionate about. And then, every single patch, what you hear is mainly complaints and negative feedback (or straight up frustrations and bad language) from the community.
How would this make you feel?
Supposing all the other factors (pay, work conditions and other benefits) are accounted for, I'd assume the negative community feedback would be just a small inconvenience.
But that may not be the case - after all, no company is perfect.
So I am wondering - how long can the staff keep up?
Final Thoughts & Questions
I'm sure these decisions are even more complex that what I'm imagining here and the devs relly have a ton on their plate. This post is not meant to bash them in any way - they are doing a titanic work in the background that we can't even begin to comprehend.
Still, my fears remain.
Behaviour, I'm sure you understand the delicate position you're in and you know what can be done to fix this.
So my final question to you is this:
What is holding you back?
My most educated guess would be the actual cost of updating the legacy code + the lost opportunity cost from not creating new content.
What are your thoughts?
Until which point are you willing to keep playing the game and what is your dealbreaker?
Mine is to have a miserable experience most of my games, from the gameplay and balancing POV (I don’t care too much about toxic players). Thaankfully, I'm not there yet.
I'm genuinely curious and intrigued at the same time - do the devsreallynot notice this issue?My guess is that they probably do, but are faced with executive decissions from Upper Management wanting them to pump more and more content, to sell more DLCs, skins etc.Skins (cosmetics) are a different department
BHVR abolished crunch time, their employees get to go home. They however have not changed the intensity of their schedule, so if something can't be fixed by the time it needs to be released (and with the consoles things have to be released on time), then its going out broken.
I couldn't verify this information, but supposedly one of the core technical issues DBD has is its poorly structured code on which it runs. A solid infrastructure might just not be there to help.My understanding: The game wasn't built with the anticipation of going this long (or even being a successful game), it started more as a passion project that clicked, which makes adding new features more difficult than if they had been planned from the beginning.
After some research, seems like BHVR is still the primary stakeholder, with Haveli Investments, NetEase Games, Gaea Mobile, and Desjardins Capital being secondary financial ones.Those other companies are partial owners of BHVR, to my understanding it is still ultimately controlled by Remi Racine.
Still, therehasto be a middle ground - keep on updating the game, reduce the amount of new content we pump out and start rewriting the code from scratch in the background. We lose money in the short term but consolidate DBD' future.With how this Quality of Life has gone, I highly doubt anything similar will ever be tried again.
Even if DbD started to bleed players today, it would still be a highly profitable game for years to come.
As an employee, you try your hardest, you do whatever it is in your power to do the work you're (hopefully) passionate about. And then, every single patch, what you hear is mainly complaints and negative feedback (or straight up frustrations and bad language) from the community.Only about 25% of BHVR's (it's been awhile since I've seen numbers released) employees work on DbD, their primary business model is being hired to assist with other companies games.
Of that 25%, many have jobs that are not directly tied to things like patches, so I doubt it would impact them.
It's also not new, nor that unique in the video gaming world, and BHVR does get complimented as being one of the better video game companies to work for (see the above about no crunch time).
Until which point are you willing to keep playing the game and what is your dealbreaker?I uninstalled. Felt lied to about the whole Quality of Life push and that this year has been a huge step backwards (while I think prior years had seen improvement). I'll probably come back for something like the next 2v8, any new modes, or if they actually make significant improvements.
Usually though, people just drift away from a game. It's the little things that add up over time.
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Well, there are lots of possible options.
The worst possible idea is buffing other things up to tunnel value. Tunnel is too strong and reward for the level of skill displayed is unbalanced. It would be like dealing with gen rush by giving survivors med kits with three insta heals.
If you don't mind totally eviscerating the feel of the game, you could go for shared hook states.
If you want to just remove it entirely, you could have unhooked survivors be completely intangible until they interacted with anything.
You could make it more difficult by buffing the boosts survivors get off hook. The problem with this is that the S Tier killers could just power through it.
You could make proxy tunneling more difficult, say by hiding when the unhook occurs from the killer.
Or you could make the 3v1 more attractive for survivors. Say a gen speed boost for the other survivors that is dependent upon how many hook states the killer has. You could even throw in some unique hook bonuses to balance it out.
I'd do the last two options which I think would be a substantial improvement to the game. Oh, that's basically just a refined version of the 9.2 PTB.
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@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032825#Comment_4032825
I brought up comp because they are incredible loopers with great teammates behind them and they still get tunneled out frequently. Also agree comp shouldn't be the focus and with everything else you stated.
I think you had good reason to post the video. When people ask for high MMR vids, if you post your own, they say its not actually high MMR. If you post comp, then they say its different (which it is, but for things like looping skills can be reflective). If you post a Content Creator doing something like a nice guy challenge, they don't count because they have 10k+ hours (or the person believes that the CCs are secretly being given easier queues).
It's unfortunately a demand for evidence that can't be fulfilled, high MMR just seems to be whatever people want to imagine it is.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032787#Comment_4032787
Except, people who have no ties to DBD also don't play DBD…. which means they certainly can't make informed choices on the balance of DBD.
Best way to do it is to pick people who do not have a financial stake in DBD.
I do think they need to go out and find people who haven't played DbD, but would be interested in the genre, and be like 'would you actually play this game? Why not?'.
Experienced feedback should definitely happen, but one of the reasons of the Quality of Life Initiative should have been to identify what was preventing new players from staying in the game (I say should have been because at this point I have no idea what their goals where).
The exit survey seems to have been the purpose of that. But given what they've done they either no long believe in that data or they've just given up on attracting any substantial number of new players.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032716#Comment_4032716
it was streamed live on dbdleague twitch
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2598497529 thats the first vod
So a few things I noticed as a frequent comp watcher who hasn't seen this one (edit to add: I generally don't think comp should be used either way as the focus of discussions, but it seems to have become a huge part of the topic).
1: It's not really unrestricted, the killers are set. If the survivors bring S Tier loadouts, and the Killer is a B tier, its not surprising that the survivors win. That's just an issue with the game's general allowed sweatiness which goes both ways. If this was truly unrestricted every killer would be either Nurse or Blight. The only one of those they did was Blight, and one of the two matches was a 4k.
2: That said, some of the mid tier killers weren't nearly as far off as I expected. They still seemed to be playing for hooks, and a quite a few of these would have been solid results with the rulesets they use (Vecna and Artist notably). The way people have made it sound, unrestricted survivors at comp would be almost impossible to even hook.
3: Did the survivors know the killer they were going to face (it seems like they knew, but I skipped through parts of the video and was just watching, not listening)? @FerrousFacade made a similar point, if I knew the killer I was going to face and had an unrestricted loadout it would be a huge advantage.
4: The difference seems to be perks/items, not looping. Which as FerrousFacade said, feels like moving the goal posts. The thread was about the idea of learning to loop, the argument 'survivors should just bring 4 toolboxes with BNPs' is a different discussion (i.e. whether the game should be designed around everyone just playing maximum sweaty).
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@ArkInk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032596#Comment_4032596
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032610#Comment_4032610
Perfectly valid take tbh. I guess my only gripe there is that any system or series of changes are subject to BHVR's mismanagement or incompetence.
Still, I can still see why people have fears like the Alien example, that sounds exactly like something BHVR would end up doing in the end and leaving untouched for months or years.
My confidence in BHVR is currently at very low levels, but it is a little more than that.
I think it would be difficult for any video game company to do it at this stage of development. If from the beginning they had the idea to put killers into block (dash, stealth, trap, anti-loop) and maps were designed to fit those archetypes, sure. It would still be one more balance issue which would cause problems, but it could happen.
At this stage? You'd both have to group maps into their best type fit, as well as finesse certain killers to more clearly align with one of the groups, and then begin rebuilding them (this course varies a bit by how precise of a fit you would be looking for)
Doable? Potentially, though as I said, my confidence in BHVR is incredibly low.
There's a conceptual issue as well that sometimes playing a killer on a map bad for them and sometimes a map great for them creates good game variety and learning different skill sets and ways to play, but that's a different argument and I don't have a firm stance on it anyway.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Ok. Here we are. I try to write this down in one go as straightforward as possible without being too destructive.
As all of the forum users, people who watch Twitch, Youtube and use social media should have seen by now, the mood within the community seems at a new low with yesterday's update the latest.
The reasons seem diverse:
- Antislug and Antitunneling ideas weren't it, got tested, then scrapped (for now) and many feel like it was all a waste of time.
- Items got changed for no particular reason (Syringe, styptic, vials…) over and over again for the last few months. Same goes for perks.
- Bugs on each side partly even got worse or haven't been addressed for months.
- Promised reworks (Skull Merchant) went…nowhere mostly.
- The latest pallet update shows, that BHVR has a real problem with finding something which one could call "the middle ground".
- The whole creator program was announced as "we will use the feedback of those partners" seems like a - and I would like to translate a phrase from my mother tongue here - grasp into the toilet. Like elbow deep. It seems like either these partners have no idea what they are telling you or you do not listen or they were chosen too one-sided regarding roles. And then the sense of all of this program seriously needs to be questioned.
- The postponing of new content until next year was a very good and needed idea and taken action, but the usage of the created time for QoL/whatever else which BHVR has right now seems completely ineffective and ineffiecient from an outside point of view as a customer (and after all that's what we players are).
Now. At least I am aware that this game is an asymmetric pvp game which by nature is hard to balance 100%. Nevertheless I cannot really say that I like the way this all is going at the moment.
Plainly and bluntly said, the situation gets worse and is already **** right now.
Now, let me try to get to a point here.
I think that the huge backlash of the community comes from one thing that BHVR should acknowledge: The people actually care(d) about this game. They enjoyed playing it, maybe still do but just fear that the way it is going. Is it dying? Does it get destroyed? Who knows. Some already uninstalled because they are fed up with the direction of this game. And although I am not the biggest veteran with like 1.7k hours, I can understand it a bit.
Personally I can still enjoy the game, but I admit that it is rough for me as well right now.
So.
BHVR.
You NEED to re-evaluate your ways of working.
- Find middle ground for balancing measures. Stuff like the pallet disaster from one extreme into the other just should not happen.
- Think about your surveys and try to tweak them. YOU have the numbers overall for players in total and role dispersion. It is not helpful to have surveys with questions too one-sided for one particular role.
- Learn to say NO, even if some people in the community yell and cry. The loudest aren't always a majority. It is rather the opposite.
- Focus on the actual game. Bugfixing, a new tutorial, gameplay issues, better menues. If no one plays the game because it is horrendous, then no one will buy the skins and new characters.
- Re-evaluate your release schedule in general. Prioritize the issues mentioned in the point above over just catapulting out new content (which unfortunately also and always comes with new issues).
If I hurt some feelings now. I don't care. I also don't care about up- or downvotes.
I just wanted to write my frustration out of my mind at this point. Because I am one of those who still play and care about this game.
The whole creator program was announced as "we will use the feedback of those partners" seems like a - and I would like to translate a phrase from my mother tongue here - grasp into the toilet. Like elbow deep. It seems like either these partners have no idea what they are telling you or you do not listen or they were chosen too one-sided regarding roles. And then the sense of all of this program seriously needs to be questioned.and
Learn to say NO, even if some people in the community yell and cry. The loudest aren't always a majority. It is rather the opposite.I think this is one of my big issues.
Either
BHVR did research, decided that the player base wanted anti-tunnel/anti-slug, worked on a system that they believed would work with their consultants, and then completely threw all that work in the trash after getting (what should have been) the expected pushback.
or
BHVR did none of the work, put together the first system they thought of, and just threw it out there to see what would happen.
Neither of those is good. If they truly believed in the 9.2 PTB, that they took all the time to design it and put it together, they should have committed. Sure, use feedback for tweaks, but something is deeply wrong if they are spending so much time on game changes that they then immediately trash.
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The point to that is tunneling is far less effective if the survivor can actually loopEverything is less effective if the survivors know how to loop.
It's axiomatic 'it's going to be harder to win if they are good', like yeah, obviously.
If all the survivors are good at looping, tunneling is still going to be the most effective strategy, because other survivors can't just be hit off the hook / will have two health states / can pre-run. It's only if the tunnel target is the best looper on the team that it would be disadvantageous to engage in.
@Anniehere said:
If survivors should learn to loop, then killers could just be told to learn how to pressure gens instead of relying on tunneling. They wouldn't enjoy hearing that, yet it's just as fair.
One thing I've learned over these last few months is that there are lots of players who believe they've achieved massive win rates despite playing a game that they think is rigged against them and asking for any improvement from the killer is forbidden.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032390#Comment_4032390
You are spot on with your post here. I wish BHVR would listen way less than they currently do, because they seem to listen, but not really process what they are listening to. Back then people complained that BHVR would not listen and back then they already listend, they just did not blindly follow the biggest complainers.
If we just look at what happened in the past months, it is honestly a Joke:
They tried to implement meaningful Anti-Tunnel and Anti-Slugging changes TWICE. They pulled it back both times because people complained massively and brainlessly. The right solution would have been to push the initial changes to Live with punishments for tunneling and benefits (not just BPs, but actual gameplay-benefits) for not tunneling. And then work from there, like reducing the punishments if needed and/or increasing the benefits - but this only works if people can actually play under those changes and adapt to them. And basically all what was left from all of this was a Nerf to OTR (a Perk which did not need a Nerf in the first place, even tho this is a minor issue since 40 seconds is still long, but still a Nerf) and 5 seconds of extra Haste after Unhook.
They implemented Fog Vials as a new Item and instead of just letting people play with them for a bit and see if they are actually problematic or Killers would just need to get used to them and new-toy syndrom wearing off, they butchered the new Survivor Item basically immediatly and now nobody is using Fog Vials at all. And since they also managed to nerf Keys and Maps in the same Patch (imagine making the worst Items on the Survivor Side even worse), this resulted in:
- Chests now even being less viable to open so that even more Survivors will just stick to Gens, since you get more garbage in Chests now
- A fun and balanced Perk like Dramaturgy being worse because you can now get more garbage
- And the Bloodweb cluttered with even more Junk than before, while the Survivor Bloodweb actually NEEDS an overhaul because there is so much useless stuff in it on top of the sheer amount of different Bloodweb Items (that they also nerfed Syringes recently on top of that… Some people call it a Buff, but it is obviously a Nerf since healing over time is stronger than getting rid of Exhaustion, the only difference is that with the latter you actually see it happening as Killer, while healing over time was not something you would usually notice)
And last but not least the Pallet Density Update - SOME Maps had Deadzones and those Deadzones NEEDED to be addressed. But other maps which were completely fine also got changed - they added a load of Pallets but also nerfed the Tiles themselves making them weaker or removed some Windows from Main Buildings or some Breakable Walls. But instead of just reverting it to the previous state (which BHVR btw. NEVER does, whenever they messed up, they try to make it better just to make it worse… In German we have a word for it "verschlimmbessern") for most maps and only keeping it for the Maps where it was actually needed (e.g. Haddonfield, some Coldwind Maps), they did a complete 180 and further nerfed the Tiles AND removed Pallets again so that in the end it is worse than before.
And obviously they did listen here again - if you look at their Polls, aside from Haddonfield it was said on all of them that the Maps would benefit Survivors, so they listened and made it completely killer-sided.
The worst part - you will not even see more M1-Killers which people claimed were weakened by it, because why would anyone want to play a M1-Killer like Trapper if they have access to so many far stronger Killers which are also easy to play? But now those strong Killers dont even need to bother with that many Pallets anymore, since most can be easily mindgamed and are not 50/50 but rather 75/25 or so at this point.
I am honestly sick and tired of BHVRs kneejerk reactions all the time. Those three things I mentioned were done in WEEKS after introduction or announcement of a feature because people complained massively. But instead of just bringing it to Live and see from there, they listened to the loud complainers and immediatly took action. It must be so frustrating to work at BHVR to create something, just for the person in charge to come back to you in two weeks to change it completely what you have been worked on before.
And the "best" part about all of that is that DBD is now in a worse state than last year at this time - when they asked us to vote for labor of love (LOL is fitting here…) and AFTER they "Operation Health"-campaign AND with actual content updates delayed because of all of that.
Sorry for using your post for my rant, but you were 100% right with this post and it was just fitting to put it here. Usually in Surveys (except the last one) they ask how likely it is to recommend DBD to a friend and if they would have put the question in a Survey, I would have hit a big 0 on that one.
Excellent post, I wanted to focus on one thing:
They pulled it back both times because people complained massively and brainlessly.I think the brainlessly is spot on. It's also normal, but in the past BHVR was able to push back.
We had lots of 'survivors will exploit the AFC…somehow', but my favorite was the 3-gen mechanic. We had people posting 'what if I kick a gen with eruption, I have surge, then I down three survivors in a row, I only have three kicks left!' type posts. But you've won, what does it matter?
Actually, here are two posts, and in general good threads, were BHVR was willing to actually push back on the more out there takes (also good reminders of some of the doomsaying that existed around the 3 gen mechanic that never came to be and BHVR should have kept in mind when looking at anti-tunnel 'feedback')
@Peanits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3624827#Comment_3624827
Genuine question so I can understand this POV better: In this scenario where you've downed Survivors near the same generator 8 times, how many times do you think you should be able to make a critical mistake and lose a down to a save (flashlight, pallet, etc.) and still deserve to win the match?
@Peanits said:
Once upon a time, generators could not be kicked. There weren't perks to regress generators either, any progress on them was permanent. Some Survivors would indeed 99 generators to trick the Killer into checking ones that were essentially 'completed'. The counterplay ended up being pretty simple: If they're 99'd, the Killer would stop checking them. They couldn't prevent it from being powered at that point, so patrolling it was wasted time.
I imagine that same thing would apply here. If you know the generator is basically done and you can't do anything to prevent it, you simply treat it as if it's completed.
However, this scenario is incredibly specific and I'm not sure if I understand why anyone would ever do this. This would be no different to simply hiding and not repairing generators in the first place. The only difference is the Survivors would have to last long enough to have all the generators blocked and repair all the way to 99%. They aren't safe while they're doing this, there's still a Killer running around and chasing them.
This would be extraordinarily unlikely, and ultimately no different from the Survivors hiding in the first place.
I really think they need to get back to this. Take feedback, sure, but if the feedback is 'brainless', if the fears players are stating don't make any sense, then ignore them and improve the game.
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@ArkInk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032318#Comment_4032318
I dunno why ideas like this always get silently pushed down without proper consideration.
Would it be difficult to recode map tilings to change with the killer? Sure, but it likely isn't impossible given the seeming implication work was done on a Walking Dead tile spawning on specific maps only when WD survivors were in the match, before the idea was scrapped into a map instead (just speculation though tbh and they'd need to actually finish and expand the mechanic)
If a change like this was made correctly however, it could allow for changing action oriented killers like Hillbilly and Blight to stay with their nice feeling controls whilst getting a pallet count to be more in line with other options, and lower on the totem pole killers that are still beloved like Ghostface could keep their beloved kits without getting power creeped.
It could even extend beyond pallets to perhaps more subtle but directed level design. On an indoor map as a ranged or dash killer? Maybe the halls could be a bit more open and less cluttered. On a wide open map as a stealth killer? Add some more trees and sightblockers.
I dunno why ideas like this always get silently pushed down without proper consideration.It's conceptually a great idea, but it adds another balance factor into the game and I think we're all heavily doubting BHVR's ability there.
You create a situation where it's like 'is Alien S Tier? Of course not, but they just put Alien in group C map spawns which means Alien is overpowered'.
It's the type of thing that would be easiest to do if the game was designed around it from the start, it would be much harder to implement at a time like this.
Conceptually though, great idea, but I feel like the implementation would be extremely disappointing.
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@Willish said:
How have you gone from adding pallets to reducing how many there were originally? Nobody had an issue before, so why??
Why can't you ever find a common ground? It's always too much or too little. You're constantly messing up. I so wanna have faith in the studio, but honestly, I couldn't possibly defend this. Would I recommend DBD to a friend? Absolutely not!
I'm not even gonna get in to the fact that you nerfed anti tunnel perks to make way for your failed anti tunnel system. Fix perks and fix pallets density.
Is anyone actually running this studio at this point or are you guys just asking AI to guess what to do next? Another complete fail!
Is anyone actually running this studio at this point or are you guys just asking AI to guess what to do next?Sometimes I try to defend BHVR.
Sometimes their decision making leaves me so confused that I'd actually be happier if they said: 'we all went on vacation and tried letting the AI run things for a few months'. Like that would be awful, but then there would at least be a reason how these things ended up happening.
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@cogsturning said:
Enjoy what you have while you can. We're deleting pallets from the game next patch.
Next Patch:"We've heard the complaints about the lack of pallets. Survivors will now get a speed boost so they can shift W across the map easier."
Patch after: "We've heard the complaints about the speed boosts. Survivors must now walk for three seconds before they are allowed to run."
Patch After: "We're listening to the community, survivors now have 7 health states, there are no pallets, running is disabled, and we nerfed fog vials some more. We also trashed Pig."
Actually the first one might actually be BHVR's thinking and they are trying to make a shift-W, SB+Vigil meta, because people enjoy that one so much.
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@angrychuck said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032071#Comment_4032071
We cannot be really suggesting that this patch is balanced because you can spin the killer.
I think (hope) the poster is joking as that is what the parenthesis at the end seems to make it.
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
Quite the "Operation Health" am I right?
Seriously. How BHVR has conducted the Quality of Life Initiative should be taught in game design classes as an example of what not to do.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
To be honest I never understood the worrys about the visible hook states.
Do people really think that a tunneling Killer which goes all game long for the Dwight sees him getting unhooked, already hit and while they stay in front of him and the saver be like…
"Urgh damn… who did I chase all the time? The one which got unhooked and is hurt or the completly other survivor i didnt chase all game" "Better I take a look at my cheat tally marks." "AH RIGHT the one i chased to death hook is the one ich need to chase to tunnel him out"
Do you really thing this?
To a degree, its just silly that at the same time there are so many complaints about devs handholding survivors this is happening with a 'well, naturally that's a good change'. It's a minor thing, but the timing with all of the other arguments for why things shouldn't happen makes it a bit weird.
@ImWinston said:
- Please, argue all you want, but saying that the old Off the Record is a "super strong" perk is simply not true. A survivor who does NOTHING for 80 seconds is a blessing for the killer, not a problem. Realistically, who the hell used Off the Record without doing anything to advance the game? "It could have been used offensively!!!" . Better yet, 2 people (one being chased and the other trying to use Off the Record) who don't work on the generators. Am I the only one who catches survivors working on the generator immediately after being unhooked without even healing???
So I think I'm going to be stepping on an argument @AmpersandUnderscore makes about how nerfing the self heal from boon: circle of healing led to survivors just doing gens more because they no longer had a reason to keep running across the map.
What's ironic, is that the nerf to OTR is the type of handholding/railroading that the devs stated as a reason for not going through with 9.2 PTB. With old OTR the survivors had a chance of making a mistake (though killers who wanted it nerfed only ever focused on when they didn't). If a survivor was unhooked but the killer wasn't around the survivor had to make a decision about what to do: get on a gen, keep the protection, go for the bodyblock. Now though survivors are just railroaded: if tunneled, run, if not, get on a gen and don't worry about the protection.
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@ImperatorHaze said:
I've seen a lot of people complaining about each role and what they feel like needs to be buffed/nerfed for the game to be more enjoyable. A lot of players on both sides do not consider newer players when asking for things to be improved nor have they played the other side.
So please answer the following only if you have played the other side (I'm talking about more than once). Do provide holistic answers to account for new players, not just what you think would be good for your matches. Keep in mind new players are not at the same skill level as you.
Survivor Mains: What is one buff, and one nerf you would add to Killers?
Killer Mains: What is one buff, and one nerf you would add to Survivors?
Please provide an answer for both a buff and a nerf. We all know survivors want tunneling/slugging nerfed and killers want gen speeds and perks nerfed. Do not answer with 'Nothing' - you came to the forum to discuss the game, so discuss. If you can provide long-winded comments and discussions as to why your side deserves a buff, then you can provide a one sentence answer for the opposite side.
So please answer the following only ifyou have played the other side (I'm talking about more than once).I think that's probably everyone. I find it hard to believe there are that many people who own a video game where they only play half of the available content exclusively.
I'm going to try and keep mine to more minor things:
Killers (going to avoid the idea of buffs/nerfs to individual killers)
Buff: The survivor on hook should not see their AFC meter until it hits 50%, then it is shown to the survivor and the team. I think this would help stealth killers set up around hooks.
Nerf: Hide the unhook notification
Survivors
Buff: Others have said chat wheel, so I'll go with different aura colors for different purposes. So you could show a hooked survivor in a different color if they have deliverance, or if you're injured show a survivor with bonuses to heal.
Nerf: Vigil is probably the obvious one, toolboxes could be standardized.
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The game has trolls on both sides, people who will insult in end game chat regardless of the facts. It's a combination of sore losers and those who just enjoy trolling.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031463#Comment_4031463
The silence on our inquires had been so deafening I figured I might as well. And hey, it gave me a sense of purpose for a month while I waste my life on this game.
I find the silence interesting as well. Its not like the posts aren't seen, some times the replies are very quick.
It's funny that the abandon system might be the biggest 'QoL' change that actually went through on the quality of life period, and somehow even that got fumbled.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030913#Comment_4030913
I want to hear the other eight.
I wasn't able to find the old list. Though as I went looking through old threads I realized how frequently this concept has been discussed again and again over the years: also, how much I like to make lists. Anyway, it did basically give me the same ideas:
3: 4v1 - Usually being outnumbered means a huge disadvantage. There is a huge desire to say 'I beat 4 people!', so the backlash to 'actually, you had the easier side' is pretty huge. We see this in the '16 v 4' perk arguments as if those things are at all comparable.
4: Standards - People's view of the game and what the killer should expect have been wildly thrown out of whack. When people talk about the game being killer sides you'll get responses like 'oh, show me winning 20 games with a row with Trapper at high MMR!'. Except that just shows how absurd the standard has become because people are basing the 'killer is harder' on a standard heavily in their favor.
5: Burden shifting - We see some of this in the thread, basically saying all of the pressure should be on survivors. An example of this is Sadako with her high kill rate, people will point out, correctly, that this will change as survivors get better. What never gets discussed is what exactly has the new or low MMR Sadako shown to earn that KR? There's just a constant focus on what the survivors COULD do, without discussing what the Killer HASN'T had to do.
This is a possible way the game could be designed, but you're advocating that the Killer should have a heavy dose of hand holding, and that goes back to my earlier point of no one wanting to win a game that is tilted in their favor.
6: Misunderstanding variability - A single trial is not a huge sample size. If a survivors wins a bunch of 50/50s that looks like they are high skill and unbeatable, but it could easily be ascribed to the survivor just winning coin flips (or even outside 50/50s larger percentages).To take the coin flips, 1 out 8 games survivors will win 4 coin flips in a row and look amazing, 1 out of 8 games the killer will win 4 coin flips in a row and the survivors will look awful. But that's not showing the skill, that's just how probability works over many games.
7: No idea what they missed - If a killer runs by a survivor waiting with a flashlight, but doesn't see them, how would they ever know? Or what if the killer goes for a tunnel and gets gen rushed, they have no idea if they could have stopped it via spreading pressure. This is how when certain forum members post their videos it gets a lot 'those are low MMR survivors, mine are much harder'. But its impossible to know what could have been missed, or how seemingly minor tactical changes could have yielded large changes, and it causes lots of anger when others post matches being able to handle things.
8: Always play the same way - Many players employ the same tactics every game (i.e. tunnel). Thus it seems confusing as why survivors don't just run the counter to that strategy. Except, survivors have to predict multiple possible playstyles, but from the killer perspective they're wondering why survivors aren't just taking the 'strongest' builds.
This can be seen with how you have killers arguing the game is clearly survivor sided, while wildly disagreeing on what the broken build is (i.e. anti-tunnel, healing, gen rushing). An argument about what is broken on the survivor side frequently gives an indication to how the killer probably players (though there are objectively overpowered things on the survivor side just as there are on killer).
9: One sided framing - Trapper vs sweaty 4 person SWF is the common argument. Sure, unfair. So is a soloq without items hitting a sweaty Nurse, but that gets ignored.
Somehow killers have been able to maximize the 'if this goes through, only S tier killers will be played', while survivors have never managed 'if this goes through survivors will only run Iri addons and always play in a SWF', though both are equally possible (by which I mean basically will never happen).
10: Perfect - So in a hypothetical world, if the survivors played perfectly, they'd win. That's because many elements of the game are perfectly predictable. If you were a computer, when the killer begins to approach you'd know exactly whether or not which vaults/pallets you could make it to because the movement rates are predictable.
Except perfection is a horrible metric. I like to compare it to chess. There are people who are professional chess players (compared to what we call 'pros' in DbD) and do it their whole lives, there are many books written on chess strategy, and chess doesn't have the randomness of a game like DbD. Except, its been a long time since the world's best chess player could beat a computer (and we keep making better chess playing computers). Well, because people, even at the most extremes of human ability, always make mistakes. But some killers have latched onto this impossible reality as the standard for how we should discuss the game.
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@Ragna_Rock said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030869#Comment_4030869
How is that a logical conclusion, console is harder so it must be that killers are worse? Japan has more soloq players btw and still has a lower kill average vs world despite soloq being so supposedly terrible so its most likely a mentality among Japanese players.
Which if true would mean that globally, surv entitlement is the issue.
@FerrousFacade covers this pretty well with a few more points, but I'll just add on:
People are people, across any large sample size you are unlikely to notice a statistically significant difference in skill without some external cause.
Broadly speaking, to account for the difference, you have the possibility that something uplifts their survivors compared to the rest of the world, or something pulls down their killers compared to the rest of the world, or some combination of those.
I think its illogical to presume that the Japanese survivors are just better players because, if true, why aren't their killer players also just better? And if the world players are worse in comparison, why are their killer players also just not worse?
Now you could have a less skills based argument: something like the meta being superior for the survivors and maybe Self Care is an S Tier perk that the world is sleeping on. But now we've opened the possibility that the killer meta is also just worse given their aversion to tunneling.
However, far more likely is an external cause. As I mentioned, its harder to play killers on controller then mouse and keyboard compared to the survivor equivalent as much more likely Occam's Razor explanation. FerrousFacade also throws in some other good possibilities. I'll even throw in that there seem to be a lot more bot farming Doctors that could be pulling the numbers down as that seems to be unknown around the rest of the world (not sure if it is a server enforcement issue or differing markets).
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Being @Nazzzak @cogsturning and @UnicornMedal have given their theories, I'll jump in on why we see such reactions. I used to have a list of ten reasons, but I'll narrow it down:
1: No one likes to win a game that was rigged in their favor. By design, the killer should kill more than the survivors escape. And even if you are really, really good, it still hurts knowing the designers have their thumb on the scales and it undermines the worth of winning. It's why you get arguments that act like comp is the only level that matters, butchering math, and things like Trapper vs 4 person sweaty SWF (while the memeing soloq vs sweaty Nurse is ignored). Simply, its a defense mechanism.
2: Killers have nowhere to go but down. I think this is what leads to the doom saying about changes even as BHVR says they'll keep to the 60% KR goal. If you're taking a lot of pride in long streaks and a huge win rate, and BHVR changes things and it plummets, but the overall KR stays relatively the same, it will make those earlier 'successes' look fake.
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@Ragna_Rock said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030619#Comment_4030619
Which is based off BHVR's versions of stats and when they try to establish a tunnelling definition he forgot on stream so I don't consider them to be great either.
Also the Japanese stats have a lower kill value compared to the rest of the world by a decent margin showing that unless the Japanese player base are just better at DBD then there has to be a better reason for the worlds kill rate on the fault of the surv side.
Also the Japanese stats have a lower kill value compared to the rest of the world by a decent margin showing that unless the Japanese player base are just better at DBD then there has to be a better reason for the worlds kill rate on the fault of the surv side.How do you come to that conclusion?
Maybe they are just worse at killer. I think a more logical explanation is the increased amount of players who play on console and killer is harder on a controller than survivor is.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030496#Comment_4030496
Ah that's right, the abandon system too. Dunno how I forgot that one.
Next up is the matchmaking overhaul, though iirc the last time they touched matchmaking was just after Chucky's release and content creators kicked up a stink. So I'll make sure to have my popcorn ready for that fiasco, and the inevitable backtracking on that too 🍿
I've been thinking of the abandon system more and how BHVR has gone kind of crazy with it. It'll be funny if the way they address tunneling is just something like 'if a survivor dies with 4 or less total hooks, all other survivors can abandon'. That's about the worst thing I think BHVR could do, so I'm starting to think it might happen.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
Hello everyone,
today I would love to get some informations from you and your playstyle when you notice you get tunneld.
Often I try to understand both sides in DbD but around this topic I won´t get the right grip.
Often people claim that it is impossible to do something if the Killer goes for you when you got unhooked. But… what are you doing with all the time you get endurance and speed buff? I really don´t get it. In my honest opinion 10 seconds are more than enough time to get to the next loop, pallet or window.
Even if you get hit off hook you get an even bigger speed boost and head start so you could reach safety or do I miss something again?
If you don´t manage to get to a loop in 10 seconds… what are you doing in that time? Or is that the same I saw in 2v8 when Survivors getting hit faster than I can blink by the same M1 Killer?
Please I really wanna know…
Often people claim that it is impossible to do something if the Killer goes for you when you got unhooked.A bit of an exaggeration unless you're focused on people who frequently use hyperbole. Unfair is different from impossible.
Even if you get hit off hook you get an even bigger speed boost and head start so you could reach safety or do I miss something again?Depending on the killer and the map RNG, this could either be a lot of safety, give you a 50/50, or next to worthless.
Anyway, if I'm tunneled, I play it out.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030496#Comment_4030496
Because I don't think BHVR is malicious. I think they do genuinely want to improve the game, and had good intentions for this initiative.
I just think they are incompetent.
I think that is true. I've been comparing things to the 3 gen and AFC camp changes - BHVR went into those with a 'this is going to happen' attitude, a clear intent on what level they wanted to change, and were open to modifying around the edges but not the entire concept. They avoided the doomsayers, even pointing out in the forums takes that didn't make sense, and were able to focus on dealing with an extreme issue. I wish they had been able to approach these quality of life changes with the same focus.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030560#Comment_4030560
tunneling can be a very bad tactic v good survivors that know what they are doing. it can also be a good tactic…. its not 100%. it works and doesnt work which is how it should be. no tactic should work all the time but it works enough for the 60% kill rate. like i said my matches where i tunnel v swf teams are balanced close matches. sometimes i win, sometimes i dont, how it should be.
you cant just dismiss a valid point by saying strawman lol. no one is swf has to play solo? they do if they want to play the game when their friends are no online which many have and many have also said they just cant win in solo but by your argument they should be able to win in solo because they should have improved by being in swf. being in a swf does mean a bad survivor can hide out all match not getting into chases if the rest of the swf is good enough. to say otherwise is just flat out wrong.
as for doing gens….like i already said, thats the role they chose they cant complain about doing gens being boring. its ridiculous to say its unfun doing gens all match. its like saying "meh i done 1 gen on my own, im bored now, i want to get in the killers face and get chased" no lol get back to doing gens, dont like it? dont pick survivor as far as im concerned.
swf is ok, bhvr has said they wont touch swf and wont ban comms….killers have adapted, like myself, i tunnel as a counter balance to swf using comms. not a problem. at this point people should accept tunneling will remain part of the game so its time to adapt…like myself, i changed playstyle and i have no issues with tunneling killers.
survivors were opposed to killers getting something that meant it was easier for killers to get downs and the parts they were not opposed to was because they know what was given to killers wasnt helpful at all so why would they care if killers got something? its like saying survivors get 1 extra pallet per map if survivors couldnt loop a pallet more than once, its nothing. killers wouldnt care survivors get something along with the nerf because they would know its meaningless. which is the issue, give and take on both sides where tunneling gets nerfed and gen speeds gets nerfed. something thats actually meaningful and makes a difference, thats what the playbase will never agree to. i have always said the only thing that will stop me tunneling is if i have time to spread hooks…. you can give me a pathetic little haste as my reward but if it doesnt mean i can keep up with gen speeds then im going to tunnel. so far not one single survivor has accepted this, its been a unanimous NO. as a player base, survivors only have themselves to blame when they dont listen to the reasons and solutions put forward by the tunnelers.
it works and doesnt work which is how it should beWhich would still be true if any of the proposed changes BHVR made actually went through.
no tactic should work all the time but it works enough for the 60% kill rate.And plenty of killers never tunnel and get a 60% KR.
you cant just dismiss a valid point by saying strawman lol. no one is swf has to play solo?Commas designate new points, but I'll make it clearer:
1: It's a strawman because I've never said the things you are talking about so you're arguing against a strawman. You're not responding to what I'm saying, you're trying to force me into the argument you want to have.
2: No one in a SWF has to play soloq is just factually true, making it distinct from the tunneling argument about it not working when killers get to high MMR - which again was my response to another poster and is another example of you trying to pull me into a different argument.
being in a swf does mean a bad survivor can hide out all match not getting into chases if the rest of the swf is good enough. to say otherwise is just flat out wrong.Then the SWF is better than the killer. Again, already covered this, in any game with a group of players bad members can be brought up by stronger players just as stronger players can be brought down by a bad player.
like i already said, thats the role they chose they cant complain about doing gens being boringNow I want to know - in your opinion what are players allowed to complain about?
like myself, i changed playstyle and i have no issues with tunneling killers.I can do this too.
I tunneled when I started playing, eventually found it boring, and then switched to not tunneling and had no issues.
If you're just going to argue 'well X works for me' then you are inevitably going to get into people saying: 'the opposite of X works for me'.
i have always said the only thing that will stop me tunneling is if i have time to spread hooksI literally have no interest or care in stopping you from tunneling. I just want BHVR to balance something that is broken on multiple fronts.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030562#Comment_4030562
dont have to be happy about it, just need to accept it. if killers are not happy with the state trapper is in, dont play trapper….which many dont to be fair
1: We're having the same issue as in the other thread were you aren't looking at statements in the context of the thread. I'm responding to Zuiphrode's point that survivors should be happy with the pallets they got, and I'm pointing out a killer example to show why that doesn't make sense.
2: Given this argument, what reason is there to post on a discussion forum? Just either accept what BHVR throws your way or stop playing.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030537#Comment_4030537
people have been asking for buffs for D tier killers for years, killers like trapper lol. who gets buffs? literally every single killer other than trapper.
And does that make the killers who want Trapper to be buffed happy?
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030548#Comment_4030548
i disagree with tunneling killers being being decimated at high mmr, i been tunneling for years since swf made it impossible to win without tunneling. tunneling doesnt only work v bad survivors it works against some good survivors too. not always but it works enough to keep that 60% kill rate. my killer matches have been fairly balanced when i tunnel because im getting swf teams so often.
being swf doesnt mean they will get better at all which is why so many swf players refuse to play solo, they admit soloq is rough and they just cant win. if swf meant these players got better they wouldnt have an issue in solo. they rely on the swf and comms, take them away and they cant win. low tier killers rely on tunneling, take that away and they cant win…generally speaking.
if we go on what makes players happy then we have already killed the game because its a 2 sided game. make 1 side happy and the other side wont be. players are not happy with being hooked hanging there with nothing to do…should we get hooks removed? if they are not happy then show it by not playing. its baffling that players pick a role which the objective is boring to them.
chase is fun? so no issue with being tunneled then, they are getting chased right? gens are boring but survivors enjoy chases….cant really complain about that.
i understand killer issues have been dealt with due to being unfun as some survivor issues have, like the abandon option. im not disputing that fact im talking about the clear resistance from the community regarding the nerfs that need to happen to survivors so they get tunneling nerfed, something that will benefit both sides and the game as a whole….things like nerfing strong loops or nerfing gens so killers dont have to rely on tunneling. you cant just focus on one side thats having issues when the issues spawn from the other side having issues. thats why if tunneling is going to be addressed it would need some give and take from survivors to allow it to happen. you cant just focus on tunneling, it wont work as is currently being shown time and time again with failed ptb.
i disagree with tunneling killers being being decimated at high mmr, i been tunneling for years since swf made it impossible to win without tunneling. tunneling doesnt only work v bad survivors it works against some good survivors too. not always but it works enough to keep that 60% kill rate1: Then your entire argument had been a non-sequitur because I was specifically replying to Classic_Rando's argument.
2: Earlier you said:
tunneling can be a very bad tactic to use if survivors actually know what they are doingNot sure how this lines up with what you are saying now.
being swf doesnt mean they will get better at all which is why so many swf players refuse to play solo, they admit soloq is rough and they just cant win.Strawman, no one in a SWF ever has to play soloq, and SWFs are not so strong that just being in one is going to carry bad players against a strong killer.
if we go on what makes players happy then we have already killed the game because its a 2 sided game. make 1 side happy and the other side wont be. players are not happy with being hooked hanging there with nothing to do…should we get hooks removed?Oversimplification. People discuss things. What would be the impact, would it make the game better, etc.
It's also incredibly wrong to presume that doing things for one side makes the other unhappy. If I won every chase I was in it wouldn't be fun. You have to find the right balance.
chase is fun? so no issue with being tunneled then, they are getting chased right? gens are boring but survivors enjoy chases….cant really complain about that.I'll just repeat myself because this was already addressed -
We're not even talking about the tunneled target, we're discussing the people who are countering it by focusing on gens.thats why if tunneling is going to be addressed it would need some give and take from survivors to allow it to happen. you cant just focus on tunneling, it wont work as is currently being shown time and time again with failed ptb.If the fact that BHVR didn't go through with something is proof of failure, then being BHVR has said they won't touch SWFs mean they must be okay?
Version 9.2 of the PTB literally had things that were being given to the killer. Lots of people thought BHVR needed to refine those ideas, its silly to say survivors were asking for things and totally opposed to the idea of killers getting something.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030496#Comment_4030496
Ah that's right, the abandon system too. Dunno how I forgot that one.
Next up is the matchmaking overhaul, though iirc the last time they touched matchmaking was just after Chucky's release and content creators kicked up a stink. So I'll make sure to have my popcorn ready for that fiasco, and the inevitable backtracking on that too 🍿
Changing matchmaking has four problems given what BHVR has said / we've seen:
1: To have a better matchmaker, you need to give it more time. More time means people sit in the lobbies longer.
2: At the upper extremes you're just going to have Nurse/Blight and SWFs, and as you mentioned BHVR already decided not to go down that route for the blowback they received.
3: Measuring skill in DbD is incredibly hard and they have said they didn't like the old rank system because it more measured how frequently someone played and not skill.
4: BHVR has said that according to their data players are usually matched up pretty well based on MMR. Unless they are just lying about that, it requires them changing a system they think is working.
Given all of those issues, I don't know how they actually overhaul matchmaking unless they changed their minds on one or more of those issues.
Though I think it would be funny given how QoL has gone if they nudge the soft cap up a trivial amount after a long PTB and declare success.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030536#Comment_4030536
swf is directly relating to the issue your talking about. your talking about tunneling being used as an easy tactic so a bad killer can win. swf on comms is just as easy if not more easy and it helps bad survivors win. you said …
"Why should "bad" killers have a strategy that works wonders against "bad" survivors, that is going to lead to them getting crushed later? That just leads to people rushing to complain about how "good" survivors are unbeatable."
which is why i mention swf on comms being used to win so when they play soloq or go against good killers they will get crushed then complain the killers are op and demand nerfs.
i think if your picking survivor then yes most people should be happy with doing only gens or dont pick that role. as killer im not going to complain about always being in chase, thats ridiculous. if they are not happy only doing gens then survivor isnt for them as far as im concerned. Its these people that hate doing gens and still play survivor that are so against gen speeds being nerfed along with tunneling being stopped. they want the tunneling bit to stop but they wont have gens take longer to allow killers more time to spread hooks.
im not saying killers and survivors are not treated the same by the devs… i think they are. im saying the view of survivor mains pushing for tunneling nerfs with the reasoning being "its not fun" has to be viewed the same way for killers. if its not viewed the same way then it invalidated the entire argument of "its not fun" to justify a nerf because killers can say looping isnt fun so nerf it. or gen speeds fly so its not fun for the killer so nerf it. try getting survivors to agree to that, wont happen.
tunneling has huge risks. there is no gen pressure for starters, if the killer tunnels a strong looper its pretty much game over the killer. tunneling can be a very bad tactic to use if survivors actually know what they are doing. im a survivor main these days and im doing fine with tunneling killers so i dont see an issue or a need to address it.
again, im not saying the double standard is from the devs its from the playerbase a whole. they want tunneling nerfed because its too strong yet refuse to accept that there are survivor side things that are also too strong such as swf on comms, pallet increased, gen speeds.
to show there are no double standards the player base a whole needs to understand, if they want unfun things like tunneling to stop then they need to look at the other side and understand there are things that need changing there too. but you cant say tunneling is unfun to justify a nerf and not accept when a killer says loops are unfun or gen speeds are unfun or comms are unfun to justify a nerf in those areas. thats what i mean by double standards.
"Why should "bad" killers have a strategy that works wonders against "bad" survivors, that is going to lead to them getting crushed later? That just leads to people rushing to complain about how "good" survivors are unbeatable."which is why i mention swf on comms being used to win so when they play soloq or go against good killers they will get crushed then complain the killers are op and demand nerfs.I'll try the same thing I did earlier: let's presume you are completely right about SWFs.
Being in a SWF will always keep the strength, they will likely actually grow as they get better at it. You have a clear difference between my statement and what you are trying to say. If tunneling only works against bad survivors, but then leads to killers being decimated at high MMR, its a reason to change it. SWFs do and will continue to provide a benefit if everything you say is correct.
i think if your picking survivor then yes most people should be happy with doing only gens or dont pick that role.I didn't ask if you think they should be happy, I asked if you think they are happy. You can't have a viable game where you just say 'people should do this', especially when it encompasses 80% of the needed players.
as killer im not going to complain about always being in chase1: Being in chase is fun. It's easy to point out the differences between engagements levels of chasing a survivor vs just sitting on a gen.
2: Killers complain about elements of the chase all the time. Which, again, is fine.
im saying the view of survivor mains pushing for tunneling nerfs with the reasoning being "its not fun" has to be viewed the same way for killersUnfun things are and have been changed for killers. I don't know where you get the idea that there is a disconnect here. Most recently OTR was changed on the arguments of it being weaponized, something killers complained about as not being fun.
tunneling can be a very bad tactic to use if survivors actually know what they are doing. im a survivor main these days and im doing fine with tunneling killers so i dont see an issue or a need to address it.And as I've been saying, if true, what's the harm in weakening it for the players who aren't as good at the game? If what you're saying is correct it will lead to killers playing better against good survivors because it won't lead to them pursuing a doomed strategy.
they want tunneling nerfed because its too strong yet refuse to accept that there are survivor side things that are also too strong such as swf on comms, pallet increased, gen speeds.You're confusing disagreements with double standards. Every individual player likely has their own list of things that are too strong or weak on either side. The fact that someone might disagree with your specific list of issues doesn't mean there is a double standard, just as a killer saying tunneling shouldn't be nerfed but SWFs should is also not a double standard, its just an argument.
to show there are no double standards the player base a whole needs to understandI've been talking about strawmans for awhile. If you're going to discuss the player base as a whole you can basically put any argument in as its more of a concept.
if they want unfun things like tunneling to stop then they need to look at the other side and understand there are things that need changing there tooDiscussing a game does require an understanding of both sides, sure. But starting from the premise that both sides right now are in perfect equilibrium is not correct. If one side has more problems than the other then it makes perfect sense for that side to get the focus of BHVR's adjustments.
but you cant say tunneling is unfun to justify a nerf and not accept when a killer says loops are unfun or gen speeds are unfun or comms are unfun to justify a nerf in those areas.Of course someone can, just as I said earlier a killer could argue that tunneling is fine but SWFs need to be nerfed. The idea of one side having a problem does not inherently necessitate the other side having the same equal level of problem (before we even get into ideas such as what changing said game elements would have on the overall game, the difficulty of implementing possible changes, or whether the ideas you bring up are actually reflected by a significant portion of the playerbase).
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@Zuiphrode said:
Y'all got like 30 pallets on some maps now making it physically impossible for half the killer roster to catch you and you're still crying?
Which isn't what survivors were asking for. Survivors were asking for a better game, not more pallets.
If killers asked for buffs to the D tier killers, and then BHVR just randomly buffed Nurse, I wouldn't expect the killer players to be happy with the decision.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030490#Comment_4030490
there have been so many people that play swf then try solo and after a few matches they say "never playing solo again" "soloq is rough" because they get demolished. these bad players that cant last in soloq use their swf with comms. they need to use swf to win, just like slow killers with no speed often need to tunnel. but you have just shown 1 double standard by saying poor survivors can win v good or bad killer but a poor killer shouldnt be able to pick up a win v poor or good survivors.
i have fun on gens, i know its my objective and i understand thats what im supposed to do so i do it. what ruins the game is the type of person that says "gens are boring" so they try getting chased and no gens get done. i would much rather these people didnt bother playing survivor since they refuse to do the objective they signed up for. i play to win, if sitting on a gen all match gets me the win thats fine by me.
you make it sound like being looped is the only way to make a game, there are countless ways to make a fun game that doesnt involve going in circles…. as for healthy game, killer and survivor should get treated the same way, if a killer who doesnt enjoy being looped is told "thats the game" "learn to counter loops" then survivors that get tunneled should be told the same thing "thats the game" "learn to counter being tunneled". the double standard is shown when survivors say to a killer "we know tunneling is very efficient and the best way to achieve your goal but dont do it" when a killer says to a survivor "i know looping is the very efficient and the best way to last longer in chase but just dont do it". its not fun being tunneled, its not fun being looped.
"what are survivors supposed to do instead of loop?" is often the response… dont loop intentioanlly make chases harder for myself?
well "what are killers supposed to do if not tunnel?" let the weaker survivor go intentionally making getting kills harder?
surly you can see the double standard there.
there have been so many people that play swf then try solo and after a few matches they say "never playing solo again" "soloq is rough" because they get demolished. these bad players that cant last in soloq use their swf with comms. they need to use swf to win, just like slow killers with no speed often need to tunnel. but you have just shown 1 double standard by saying poor survivors can win v good or bad killer but a poor killer shouldnt be able to pick up a win v poor or good survivors.I never said a poor killer shouldn't be able to pick up a win vs poor or good survivors (though rationally speaking if a poor killer is frequently winning against good survivors the game has issues).
If I was designing the game just for me, I'd rip SWFs out if it. But its not for me and a red herring to the discussion that you seem to be trying to force in that isn't related to what I've said or the context of who I was responding to.
i have fun on gens, i know its my objective and i understand thats what im supposed to do so i do it. what ruins the game is the type of person that says "gens are boring" so they try getting chased and no gens get done. i would much rather these people didnt bother playing survivor since they refuse to do the objective they signed up for. i play to win, if sitting on a gen all match gets me the win thats fine by me.After the first sentence all of this is a strawman as I never said anything close to any of that
As for the first sentence, gens are only the part of the game. To try and pull it back to the actual example: do you believe most players would enjoy doing nothing but gens and leaving?
you make it sound like being looped is the only way to make a game, there are countless ways to make a fun game that doesnt involve going in circlesEarlier you said:
if you dont like doing that [gens] i dont think survivor is for you.If a person doesn't like looping then DbD probably isn't for them (for both survivors and killers)
Looping is a core part of what DbD is. Which is fine, there's lots of games that have other mechanics, but BHVR has more and more leaned into the chase as a key aspect of what players come to DbD for.
as for healthy game, killer and survivor should get treated the same way, if a killer who doesnt enjoy being looped is told "thats the game" "learn to counter loops" then survivors that get tunneled should be told the same thing "thats the game" "learn to counter being tunneled". the double standard is shown when survivors say to a killer "we know tunneling is very efficient and the best way to achieve your goal but dont do it" when a killer says to a survivor "i know looping is the very efficient and the best way to last longer in chase but just dont do it".This misses an incredibly obvious point - looping does get adjusted. Certain loops that are too strong (efficient) are nerfed, perks are adjusted, killers get bloodlust as the chase goes on, and if we go back far enough we even have the three loop window block (and yes, sometimes BHVR also makes it stronger, just like if BHVR actually went through with anti-tunnel they would inevitably strengthen and weaken it over time).
In this push for a double standard you are missing that these issues are discussed and adjusted. None of the changes BHVR proposed would eliminate tunneling.
Again, you're arguing with a strawman to try and say killers and survivors aren't being treated the same. How strong should anti-tunnel be is not an us vs them issue. How strong should looping be is not an us vs them issue. Both are nuanced discussions about where to draw lines on the strength of certain things.
well "what are killers supposed to do if not tunnel?" let the weaker survivor go intentionally making getting kills harder?Now we're switching to killer ethics which has not been argued before.
What anti-tunnel proposed was increasing the risk/cost of tunneling a survivor. Right now tunneling has a few risks, a survivor rescuing with Babysitter or a DS for example. A killer has to consider these risks when deciding who to go for. By and large though, tunneling is way too strong on the risk vs reward factor, is primarily decided based on a guessing game in the loading screen, and creates an unenjoyable game for the other survivors.
Saying 'hey, maybe we should increase the difficulty of doing this, given all of that' is not some strange double standard. It has happened frequently to survivor things that were way too strong (which, to be clear, is perfectly fine)
surly you can see the double standard there.You're trying to create your own argument to show a double standard which isn't actually tied to things I say, and is avoiding the context of who I was originally responding to.
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@Nazzzak said:
The QOL initiative went exactly as I assumed it would. Very lacklustre. Only good thing to come out of it was the visible hook counts. Probably the only thing, actually, though I acknowledge it was supposed to be a survivor focused year (per the anniversary stream).
We've got the abandon system, which has allowed them to make it look like survivor escape numbers are far better than they actually are.
So quicker losing and gaslighting.
@Skillfulstone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030226#Comment_4030226
I mean, not to sound pessimistic, but BHVR has effectively no incentive to do more than the bare minimum.
There's no meaningful competition (every other assyms are either dead or dying).
The licenses alone could keep the game standing (let's be honest, if licenses never came to DBD, that game would have died years ago) and every new licenses bring in a wave of players from an entirely different community (retention is bad, but it's enough).
Even after every repeated disasters this year (all those disaster streams/collabs, major changes being repeatedly canceled etc.) people are still buying stuff. So from a business point of view, there's no need to put more effort and resources on a formula that already works and isn't in any real danger no matter how many mistakes are made.
The thing I don't get: why even bother? If this is BHVR's stance, just keep pumping new content until the game collapses under its weight. But they actively denied themselves money by delaying content and then failed to deliver on multiple things they said would be coming.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030112#Comment_4030112
Called it. All these threads acting like the PTB stuff was going live after we have all seen they consistently revert anything based on any negative feedback from killer players. The days killers can act like victims are over. They're basically picking and choosing what goes to live themselves at this point - they don't get to act like the underdog any more.
I look forward to the killer content creators twisting themselves in knots to somehow paint this release as survivor sided and figure out what they can whine about next. Maybe they'll stick with their made up go next epidemic.
I look forward to the killer content creators twisting themselves in knots to somehow paint this release as survivor sided and figure out what they can whine about next.Somehow I think the exit survey will continue to live on as the go to complaint about bias, even when it was the most obvious complaint about the game (i.e. why did we even need a survey) and BHVR ultimately capitulated on their changes despite them saying people were literally quitting the game over it.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030465#Comment_4030465
thats like saying why should bad survivors have a strat to beat bad killers but then get steam rolled when they go against good killers….. 2 examples of this…
- survivors can sit on a gen and do nothing while team mates deal with the killer… why should that survivor working on gens thats bad at loops and bad at every other aspect of the game, why should they escape and beat the killer?
- swf on comms, the comms alone can provide huge benefits to steam roll a bad killer but then when they go against a good blight, they suddenly struggle and say blight is op.
my point is if you apply it to one side you have to apply it to the other side or it shows double standards.
also people say the need to tunnel in high mmr when playing low tier killers. S tier killers like blight and nurse dont need to tunnel but the vast majority of the roster do need to.
what is an enjoyable game? whats fun for you isnt always whats fun for the someone else… being tunneled might not be fun for you but being looped might not be fun for the killer. do survivors care if the killer is getting frustrated by being looped the whole match and having no fun? no. i dont think survivors can complain about sitting on a gen being boring when 1 person loops the killer the whole time. gens is literally the survivor objective, not chases. you play that role to do gens to escape. if you dont like doing that i dont think survivor is for you. its like a killer complaining about killing survivors…. thats the point to the role…thats the objective.
survivors can sit on a gen and do nothing while team mates deal with the killer… why should that survivor working on gens thats bad at loops and bad at every other aspect of the game, why should they escape and beat the killer?An individual survivor can be pulled up by the others, just as a really good survivor can be pulled down by a bad survivors.
That's how any game works. DbD is just unique in that one side is a group, and the other side is an individual.
swf on comms, the comms alone can provide huge benefits to steam roll a bad killer but then when they go against a good blight, they suddenly struggle and say blight is op.Comms provide an advantage, sure, but otherwise this is a red herring.
my point is if you apply it to one side you have to apply it to the other side or it shows double standards.If you can show a double standard sure, but you just have unrelated arguments.
I was taking my argument based on presuming the other posters point was true. Which if I simplify it down, if it only works against bad survivors, what is the harm in nerfing it?
what is an enjoyable game? whats fun for you isnt always whats fun for the someone elseSure, that's just a part of games.
being tunneled might not be fun for youAnd you've already tried to change my point and avoided the position I was responding to.
How many people have fun just doing gens? We're not even talking about the tunneled target, we're discussing the people who are countering it by focusing on gens.
but being looped might not be fun for the killerBut then what game do you have?
do survivors care if the killer is getting frustrated by being looped the whole match and having no fun?Us vs Them distraction. What will make a healthy game? Don't try and turn it into sides.
gens is literally the survivor objective, not chases. you play that role to do gens to escape. if you dont like doing that i dont think survivor is for you. its like a killer complaining about killing survivors…. thats the point to the role…thats the objective.At no point have you said only doing gens is fun. You've just tried to talk circles around the obvious.
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@Depressed_Millenial said:
Asking for clarity on how decisions are made, and if the metric they used is accurate and if any consideration is made on how it affects killer players, is not complaining. Holy F.
I'm glad the 2v8 exists and people get to enjoy it.
And yes I have actually uninstalled, but I'm also curious, and wanted an actual constructive answer that gives insight to my questions, which anyone of you have yet to provide. My bad thinking the forums would actually have a discussion and provide intelligent and valuable feedback to my curiosity. Instead of 'cope, L OP'My bad thinking the forums would actually have a discussion and provide intelligent and valuable feedback to my curiosity.This doesn't square with your earlier statement of:
@Depressed_Millenial said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030442#Comment_4030442
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030443#Comment_4030443
I've uninstalled so I don't actually care, and unless your name was Mandy, wasn't asking for a response or your input anyway. So enjoy the journey coming to terms with that.
I've uninstalled so I don't actually care, and unless your name was Mandy, wasn't asking for a response or your input anyway. -
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030448#Comment_4030448
I think this was a mixture of the loud minority getting their way and then walking triumphantly away, and the dust on the knee-jerk reactions settling and everyone just thinking it over and realizing it was an okay idea.
Broadly, this is true. I think BHVR really overreacted to people who had balance concerns, which where frequently overstated and are an inevitable component of any change, and didn't spend enough on those who had concerns about game feel, which is what they should have focused on.
I know you don't follow the CC community, and its hard to generalize the feel of lots of different individuals, but we really seem to have gone from 'all of these changes are awful, trash it all' to 'what do you mean you're trashing the changes?' I worry there has become a norm of just trashing whatever decision BHVR makes instead of providing actual constructive feedback.
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When BHVR announced the QoL changes I thought they sounded great. I'm pretty patient and I thought I'd wait until they actually went through. Looks like I might be waiting a long time indeed.