Zarathos
Zarathos
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I cant believe slinger is in such a state were contemplating giving him more ms. I agree wiht not giving ranged killer ms bar the straight up bad ones because tbh slinger needs a more complex changes that behaviour clearly cant pull of. So the ms increase might be the simplest short term solution.
That being said map designers need to start splitting there maps into multiple realms for example ormound,rpd etc should have two variations. The decreased movement speed is seriously hampering map traversal on maps that are already to large for normal speed killers. Encouraging "sigh" camping.
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@ThanksForDaily said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2790982#Comment_2790982
Oh, you question my data, you hurt my feelings. Okay, not every billy, 9/10.
Bulloney billy main add ons were often at most tuning guide and some random cooldown add on(because it effectively add more power a across the board. Even then i saw more crack billies and drift king billies. Again i keep bringing it up even ohtofu a person who mained billy said his issue was the killer stopped being fun. Due to his clunky camrera and the general fiddling with his curved saws around corners.
Die hard billy mains decried these changes people just love to pretend it was the 5 % who ran instasaw.
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@Astral88 said:
There’s a few reasons why the game is going down the hill. I’m super glad, that Patrick and his fashion team has great ideas for nice cosmetics. But what about a new mode? There’s many possible ways: Practice Mode with bots (I don’t talk about the tutorial) - so you could learn maps and learn how to use perks more confident as in real matches, just to name one for right now.
Steam is one of the available platforms but for sure it’s the biggest and most important one. We don’t know numbers but I’m convinced tho.
Patricks match making system is simply too frustrating for new players, cause let’s say you get a 4K as killer. Bam, you match against players with a few k hours. That’s not as it is supposed to be.
Tunnelling and facecamping is a tactic, which is ok tho. But the system should detect pure face camping by the fact that the killer simply hasn’t moved much. And therefore you should be punished somehow, like get 0 BP and get a dc penalty or something similar. I agree on tunnelling, can be super helpful sometimes.
However, since Patrick is negating any critic and not taking ideas how to better up the current situation, the game is doomed.
Also one important point is, that NetEase is also in Behaviour Inc. for a while. I know this company from a different game and all what they care is your money for as less effort as possible. I know they are supposed to be relevant for DBDM, but we don’t know if it’s just like that.
So don’t get fooled. :)
Whilst i 100% agree with your points i do think there are some ideas and thought that might clairify dbds current issues.
People often complain about efforts dedicated to cosmetics which isnt fair most of the time since its often different teams. However when your game has done so little to add new game modes, slow crawls to fix killlers who have been horribly neutered by bad game design decisions or adjust the trial experiance to encourage a meta shift.
There is serious killer bloat in terms of playable killers and rather then slow down and improve there existing rooster focus is primarily on aquiring more licenses and making more killers. They have the revenue stream from skins and a large number of killers with cool skins that are largely unappealing because the gameplay design is underpowered. Look at clown and slinger for the myriad of cool skins that wont or sell less because playing that particular killer isn't fun.
Rather then making there power accessible or adding nuances to there design we get nerfs to encourage playing there new killer which losses them players overall since losing your main to be replaced by a killer you have zero interest in is a loss of playerbase. No the majority of slinger and clown players arent going to switch over to a k pop diva or a inky crow lady.
This game desperatly needs comeback mechanics for both roles anytime you are on the path to losing for a prolonged period of time is bad game design. Adding baseline comeback mechanics (not entity damned perks). This could be with increased healing repair speed whilst down survivour players that increase with each dead survivor or a mori usable upon hooking all 4 unique survivors. (This also discourages tunneling and camping).
Dbd swings to hard and has a clear victor way earlier then it should. It needs to respond immediatly to killer and survivor perk changes so there not left to rot. Producing more perks and killers that create further imbalances is only making the games balance issues worse.
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@brokedownpalace said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2781907#Comment_2781907
Are there 1, 2 or 3 viable killers?
Id say there (being generous) 4 viable killers blight, nurse, huntress and spirit. All but one of these killers are obnoxiously difficult to pick up. Blight is just an easier to play killer of the 4 mentioned. Spirit, huntress and nurse are heavilly punished for misusing there powers and the complexity of there power keeps a large number of the player base from playing them.
Wraith was a nice powerful but accessible killer but last few changes have hurt him even though i still wouldnt class him as top tier when he was stronger. Freddy was similar. The fact of the matter is killer dosent have an accesisble powerful killer. So blight being the easier to learn is now everyones go to. I suspect we will be seeing some heavy nerfs that will likely push players away from playing him. No they wont be add on nerfs they will be basekit nerfs because behaviour will always overdo it. See billy and deathslinger as example of this.
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Add baseline comeback mechanics for dbd.
Killer gets a pre nerf mori after getting x number of hook states or hooking every survivor player once. Survivors should get improved healing and repair speed per missing/dead survivor.
Dbd games swing to hard and reaching points of clear defeat that gets drawn out is terrible for both sides. Give both killer and survivor an out a real way to get back into the game.
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Just let me break the totem and were good.
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@RakimSockem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2780278#Comment_2780278
No no that's exactly my point. Because survivors don't have individuality, everything that gets nerfed affects every survivor. On the killer side of the game, there haven't been many nerfs that affect the killer base as a whole, just individual tweaks to powers or add ons.
So when people complain about the "number" of killer nerfs, well duh because killers have powers as well as adds on that can be nerfed and they vary for each killer so it's gonna feel like it's more when it's really not overall
Killers have there kits fundamentally broken with zero pressure on the devs to fix. It dosent matter if legion, slinger, billy are bad . 85% of the community dosent want em. So nerf em and play something else. Problem is you have mains who lose complete interest in the game and have to wait 2+ years for a fix. Billy still has overheat for example.
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@GannTM said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2778612#Comment_2778612
And rightfully so. Playing and trying to win a game should never be considered toxic. The word toxic has lost all meaning.
Ya but the line tends to get crossed when it switches to hate speech to do it. If your actively trying to piss someone off by making racist homophobic remarks just so you can tilt them thats easily a problem.
I picked an extreme example, but even just being rude post match just to put that player on tilt is scummy and well bad manners. I agree toxic certainly gets exagerrated in dbd but lets not pretend there arent people taking your mentality to far and dropping the n word and homophobic slurs just "to get in there heads". Its a strat bro is not ok. Gonna keep posting it but chat for killer and survivour should be opt in by default not opt out.
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Ill be straight with you dbd is as toxic as a paddling pool of chlorine. You wanna see toxic go check out csgo,dota,etc. The fact of the matter is the sheer amount of resources required to curb bad behaviour is so expensive resource wise it would be better spent making the actual mechanics and gameplay of dbd more varied and interesting.
Getting harassed because your losing to your opponent is just your average ######### gamer energy nothing new. I advise closing chat permently whatever good comes of it is not worth the moaning and temper tantrums that permeate this post game chat.
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Killer is in such a sorry state that blight is probably the most balanced killer in the game. A killer needs to be powerful to win the current 1 v 4 state as its very easy to lose a lot of gens early on even with perks (not everyone has these unlocked). Dbd base game is built poorly perks try to correct but only end up overcorrecting and stagnating the game.
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@Hermit said:
Devs have told us that kills = skill and kills = win.
A killer getting two kills by camping, tunneling and noed is more skilled than a killer getting eight hooks and no kills according to the lead designer.
So, you did not play against lazy killers, you played against the most skilled ones.
Something something hockey analogy.
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@Sepex said:
Haddonfield and the offering for it are disabled because the devs are currently in the process of graphically updating the map as part of Realm Beyond.
Hope it includes some balance changes as well. If I'm wrong feel free to correct me. Cheers!
Ya map kept causing killer dcs strange occurance tbh XD . I hope they make the proper adjustments to make the great wall of bushes less oppresive.
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Seems to be heading that way. Its starting to look terminal. Serious competent movement on needed changes is massively needed. Gameplay is becoming increasingly more stale due to a lack of variety in builds killer options further straining and burning out vetran players.
If I was in there shoes i d focus on establishing some rotating game modes alongside "trials"(the main game). Stop nerfing killers till they have figured out how to add some agency and variety back into the role.
I really hope we get people pushing new modes it would open up more variety in terms of gameplay and create a casual enviroment where due to continious rotation the modes would become stale at a significant slower pace. Dbd needs an enviroment to push casual expermentation build wise and sbm has thrown a giant wrench into it.
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@Flimflam said:
Balancing twins because of her killrate at high MMR is one area I kind of agreed with the devs at. Now I don't want people to read that as I don't think twins need QoL improvements. Because they do. Just that I would hope that we would see a lot more changes aimed at higher skill brackets of the game for both sides.
Unless you immediatly follow up assinine frustrating nerfs with actual qol improvements or buffs you will hemorage the numbers of ppayers who play that killer. Assuming in a years time those players will still be around is a little delusional. I cannot stress how important it is to immediatly improve the nerfed skill/killer.
Then again I suppose you could just deliberatly overnerf a killer or survivor perk if you dont believe customer trust is a thing.
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I remember when one of the mods said they would be listening to feedback and funny enough they did. They nerfed the ms increase addon whilst aimming to mittigate the increased zoning deathslinger players were doing.
They of course kept the ads as is because its clear there objective was to push slinger out of viability to jam there new ranged killers down our spine. If they really wanted slinger to be in a better state they wouldnt have half assed his changes and left him in such a miserable state. Look at the store page for chains of hate its a a disaster. Which is sad because it originally was a well recieved chapter. Its straight vandalism what they did.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2755855#Comment_2755855
Oh yeah, I remember flashlights.
I guess I haven't played yet with Huntress changes.
It was really annoying for me that they announced it, almost eveyrone got pissed about it, so they said it's just PTB and it can be changed and of course nothing happened and it went live even tho I didn't see fully positive feeddback on it ever Some players think those things should be nerfed, but noone thinks it should be done like this.
One issue is that he is not terrible for those who liked to spam fake ADS, because you can do it. On the contrary, you have to do that now to test how survivors will react, because his shots are 100% reactable now.
I have played Deathslinger mainly for quick-scopes, it was fun and satisfying to do. Fake ADS is boring and it was only thing that should go instead. I would still play him with TR nerf, that just makes him worse, but I wouldn't feel it that much while playing him.
Deathslinger was mainly for FPS players and most of them gave up on him including me.
Now you buy him for dead man's switch and maybe gearhead?
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754618#Comment_2754618
Yes, I agree- as I said, all killers can create scenarios where their hit is all but guaranteed, that's part of how this game is designed. The problem with old Deathslinger is that the scenario he ""created"" was just being in a chase with a survivor in any spot more open than Lery's. He didn't have to do anything, he just had to keep raising his gun while making distance and then either getting an M1 or firing so quickly no human being would feasibly be able to react to it.
Now, to your "snappy and clean" point- again, I agree. We are in agreement that he is not in a good spot and the main reason is that he feels a touch too clunky and sluggish. I imagine we disagree on how bad of a spot he's in, but he unambiguously needs a little help. He just can't be walked back to his old obnoxious state because that was changed for a reason.
Also, you're being purposefully obtuse in that last point. Obviously they can learn from any other game in some way, but you were drawing a direct comparison between Dead By Daylight and FPS games, which is a misleading and inaccurate way of looking at it. Slinger can't function like Doomguy or Master Chief because this isn't that kind of game, making arguments revolving around "well it's in those games" is irrelevant- which is what you were doing and what I was responding to.
I'm suggesting we go the direction of reverting the quicks scope and further increasing his gun drop animation. It effectively kills the zoning argument as now rasing a gun has a cost if you aren't going to shoot. This is a revert no matter how you see it as it is reintroducing quickscoping but taking the real culprit of survivors issues the free zoning.
Even then he still needs help but there thousands of ideas that could help slinger out. A bounty hunting system with trial spanning effects would be my preference.
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Be ready for the most intense pig games of your life. Seriously though this game would be so much better if they baseline encouraged killers to not play like jackasses. It really dumb how there no baseline mechanics to spread out hooks.
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🔇 mute chat by default and have it be an opt in. There fixed your problem. Manually tick the chat option to opt out is the wrong way round.
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Do you wanna play a multiplayer horror game yes you have dbd and ........... vhs I guess. You get my point but dbd has zero established competition. You could play some scuffed horror multiplayer steam games but again they will likely not have the established power of dbd.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754222#Comment_2754222
...Calling someone incompetent and ignorant isn't a personal attack now? Alright, dude.
Tackling the rest of your points, thin as they are... do you really think that you've got a point with that "medium to short range load out" thing? The point is that in a shooter, both sides are trying to kill each other. In this game, one side is trying to kill the other side, and the other side is trying to avoid getting hit. If a killer in this game has a way of hitting a survivor that the survivor cannot do anything about (outside of things like Huntress at a window, I'm not talking about having situations where a hit is unavoidable, but rather a hit being unavoidable at all) then that killer is badly designed. Period.
As for your points about Slinger being a high skill ranged killer and the survivor skill of more intelligent pathing being the counterplay, I agree! And now that the survivor actually has that option because Slinger can't just ADS fake/quickscope to take away their agency, that can start being how he actually plays- once he's buffed, anyway.
Brief aside, Overheat is unnecessary but it also has zero impact, so removing it fixes nothing and amounts to a waste of resources. They should at least try to make it a positive presence before abandoning it.
And finally, I do not support the way that Deathslinger was changed and if they do take years to fix him I don't support that either. What I'm defending is specifically that, in a better version of the changes, quickscope/ADS fake would still be gone, because that was a problem. Let's try and stay on topic, shall we?
Creating guarranted hits is inevitably going to happen regardless of which killer you play. Trap based killers create scenarios where your damaned if you do and damned if you don't. Blight has tiles and zone's where your agency as a survivour is nonexistent its the push and pull to force and maneuver away from these positions that is the heart of dbds higher skill play or what it should be. You are rewarded as killer for creating these opportunities.
But usually the counterplay for traps is to disarm them. In deathslinger case he is a 110 killer putting distance between you and him is the point. If you don't leverage the vaults and pallets to push for increasing distance that's a falling of the survivor.
If you traditionally loop Slinger your giving him guaranteed hits. Pallets, vaults are intended to give you that distance. If you give the ranged killer a skill that can be dodged and reacted to they won't function as a killer past certain skill brackets. It could be perfectly fine with an increased cooldown on his gun drop down animation to prevent zoning (which he still does look at otzs lore based Slinger for proof of such). But if he is pulling up his gun to use his power it should be snappy and clean.
Plenty of designs in games are walked back. Because building on bad decision is building on bad foundation that regardless of how well the other components are designed will not save the mechanic. That's why they went about ripping out the foundation of Freddie power design. You can argue its still not exciting which is fair but it certainly more practical then building on a concept that is inherently terrible.
In regards to stay on topic or as some call it "what aboutism" taking concepts and existing history in game design as a source is important regardless of your genre. Though the language is different there are still key game design philosophies. A moba, a shooter, a fighting game still has design perspective dbd would benefit from to compartmentalise them as separate subjects with no crossover whatsoever is foolish.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2752598#Comment_2752598
Oh, well, I'm glad that you gave an advance counter, but let me still make the (correct) observation anyway: Hurr durr, this is not a shooter game.
The reason quickscoping works in shooters is that it's symmetrical and you can quickscope back to kill the other guy. DBD doesn't work like that. Quickscoping in this game is a cheap, uninteractive, boring mechanic that forces survivors into a lose/lose scenario. "Other" shooters (by which you mean, shooters, as this isn't one) are literally irrelevant, and I do not use the word "literally" cheaply or incorrectly here.
Bypassing completely unnecessary personal attacks on the dev team, let's take a look at your actual points. The thing is, I actually agree with them- Slinger is too clunky and slow to play as, and that's something they should be looking to fix! Nobody in this thread, myself included, is arguing that Slinger's current state is fine, what's being argued - correctly - is that reverting the changes they made specifically is a bad response. They made the changes for a reason, they should be moving forward and not back. Period.
Believe me a declaration of game balance incompetence or game designer ignorance is far from a personal assault let's get that out of the way. Putting Infuses on dev incompetence criticism based on a longed storied history of mistakes.
Next you can quickscope back to kill your opponent is flat out incorrect if there equiped with medium to short range load out they lose the ability to meaningfully fire back. There are plenty of games where hostiles are not killable and your counter measures involve better pathing. Assuming an asymetrical game cannot do this is jarring and absurd.
Often developers go a direction with design that is terrible and unnecessary. Deathslinger is a high skill ranged killer if a person can transform a quickscope into a hit it is not only earned its good design. It creates actual reward for time invested learning the character. The opposing survivor skill of pathing through difficult terrain to force more precise shots is in itself a skill. Billy isn't a push forward design either. Overheat is unnecessary and removal of deathslingers quick scope is flat out wrong.
Even if we entertain the quickscopes got to go. It might not be a play style a player likes but you shouldn't horribly mangle the killers design before having measures in place to actually fix the killer. How can you stand by these decisions to mangle a killers design if you know its gonna take months (if we're lucky) years (if its similar to Freddy or dses true rework). It ignorant and irresponsible. It straight borders on vandalism of a players property. But it's OK in two years time he will be back to functioning as an enjoyable killer.
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@jesterkind said:
Neither needs to be reverted, both need to be improved. Billy's addon nerfs were far too harsh, what he needs is another addon pass to make them all more useful, not just being reverted back to having unfair/busted addon combinations.
Same with Deathslinger. The changes they made were necessary (with the possible exception of the TR increase, I'm still not sold on that one), the problem is that he already had a pretty weak design so removing his stupid cheese strats just leaves him feeling clunky, and the buffs he got in the same update weren't quite enough.
Move forward, not back.
Ya quick scoping is annoying but it's kinda an fps industry standard. Imagine if doom, hunt, halo or any other shooter had deathslinger ads like gameplay. Ffs most games allow you to hip fire. Making a deliberately scuffed aiming mechanic with zero nuances or appeal is ridiculous.
Who is deathslinger aimed at is my question. He's a clunky, slow moving, normal tr killer with zero appeal bar his asethic which is wasted on a dev team incapable of making exciting intuitive gameplay. It boggles the mind how most shooter players accept quick scoping as a natural element of fps gameplay but player with zero shooter experience can have there opinions more valued.
In advance of the hur dur this is not a shooter game argument let me remind you that the person playing slinger is likely a shooter player that what his look and gameplay is supposed to appeal to. Scuffed, clunky gameplay is a gaming developer sin. Expecting some of your audience to be masochistic and embrace his design is deluded and downright foolish.
What I find especially hilarious is the assumption a god slinger isn't going to miss. What? Even the competitive shooter players miss look at most hunt streamers live gameplay. That's without considering his weapon is a breach action low muzzle velocity shot with an 18 meter range limit. I advise that if your gonna balance slinger or express frustration with his design at least get some experience on other shooters so you are at least informed.
Slinger and Billy is another reminder the dev balance team are hopelessly awful at following the most basic developer rules which is making intuitive fun meaningful gameplay that is distinct and exciting.
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@HeyItsQuiet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2736489#Comment_2736489
That would be nice if he wore a token of the character, like glasses for Dwight or Claude. Not sure how that would translate for Meg or Jake. However, they made their decision and the artist who created the cosmetics is happy for the removal, so I'm inclined to agree.
Hey wait a minute I like your idea don't worry I m just going to use it to make a new leather face skin. That can of course be only purchased with auric cells. Fancy that. Behaviours devs probably.
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Feel like dbd and multiplayer chat in general should be opt in anyways. But for fans of the og slasher character it's a real shame that his multiple faces aspect of his character is being suppressed over attitudes and behaviour that are expressed irregardless what role or person someones playing. Leather faces masks never empowered racism.
A lack of punishment and poor disciplinary systems is your culprit. I guess its easier to make a token gesture? Then actually ban problem players and implement a functional report system.
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You can hate a killer but we're gonna tell you why your opinion is wrong. I hate hag doesn't mean I think she robs me of agency or is bad for the game. My prefered playstyle just runs counter to how she's played.
Nurse is all about Los denial and forcing the nurse to make difficult blinks. If she takes the safe blinks she will eventually catch up and get the guaranteed hit but she will lose the game unless she takes risks with her blinks.
If all you does is hold w and focus on getting as much distance as possible yeah your gonna get absolutely annialtaed. But hey why not start this trend now I do love how the majority of reworked killers are miserable to play might as well make the nurse even worse.
One thing that drives me up the wall is this focus on dbd playing with these specific looping rules. It's infuriating how every concept of killer needs to play to this formula of playing with a focus on pallets and vaults being the be all and end all of dbd gameplay. Asking a survivor to focus on denying Los as much as possible or (slow there pace to move around a corner is apparently forbidden I guess?)
Dbd is in desperate need of a shake up same tired crap. All the time this "agency" crap needs to go so we can see some baseline additions to both the killer and survivor role. Even if it came in alt game modes it would be a step in breathing some fresh air into dbd.
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@gendoss said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2746288#Comment_2746288
So in a PvP game where 2 sides compete with each other there should exist an easy mode character where no obstacle can limit you?
Just because she's hard to play as doesn't mean she's fair in the slightest. No fighting game or any other competitive PvP game has characters designed like that because it's unfair.
Woops oxymoron. It can't be easy mode if theres intensive skill involved with utilising her power correctly. Nurse consistently scores below 50% kill rate. If you nerf her any further then she will go from being playable by 5% of the community to 1% which at that stage you might as well delete the character. Nurse is actually the ideal example of good killer design.
She's not limited by large map sizes l, bad blinks cost you distance, her and blight allow killers to compete with actually skilled players without being universally usable by players like initial reworked Freddie.
She adds another layer to dbd gameplay by creating strats that involve doubling back or changing your route up to shake the killer. In an era of crow lady nemesis and killers who have zero punishment for power misuse she stands as a heavily power dependant killer that dramatically changes up how survivors play.
Controversial opinion but Nurse is the epitome of the killer and survivor gameplay I want more of in dbd. None of this hold w crap. If thy did rework Nurse I promise you it would likely make her easier to play, less powerful for upper tier play and overall play into the killer design of easy anti loop application with limited means of punishing misplays.
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@anarchy753 said:
If you put up a boon, it takes 14 seconds, and 1/4 of your team is occupied doing it. Your team as a whole loses 3.5 seconds.
If a single heal takes place in range of the boon, 16 seconds is saved, meaning your team as a whole gains 4 seconds.
If it takes the killer any more than 3.5 seconds from hearing a boon to walk over to it, stomp it, and get back to what they're doing, the survivor team has gained time.
A tool which was designed to keep survivors occupied on something other than generators is almost impossible to use in a manner that doesn't BUY the survivors time.
This would almost be acceptable if it were limited to a single survivor, or stomping the boon had a more permanent effect. Instead we have a perk which takes a single perk slot, and gives 8 perks to the survivor team. THERE IS NO WAY FOR KILLERS TO PLAY AROUND BOONS THAT DOESN'T LOSE THEM TIME. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, where both stomping it and not stomping it are losses as the killer and that's really unfair when it's been well known for years that one of the biggest issues with the killer role is the constant time pressure.
Can we tag this post as answered please with this above statement perfectly encapsulates the power of the effect and clarifies time wise why coh is oppressive. Even without the obnoxious upper level spawns that can occur.
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This isn't said enough but this idea creates an immunity zone where you can leave survivors on hooks and loop around them if they want to negate his saw. Yes you can m1 but that creates unfair scenarios where a bubba will get there power cancelled by deliberate exploitation.
Picture your bubba your making distance on the survivor and then they lead you to a hooked survivor. As you start to close the gap. Your saw fails and that survivor moves on to the next loop instead of saving there friend.
Please envision yourself as the killer before suggesting changes that would be easily exploited. Yes camping bubba sucks but I d sooner recommend a hook rework system then randomly gut killer powers and add additional frustration mechanics for people who are playing fairly.
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I turn into a box 📦 gremlin .obsessed with tracking it down and solving it. Pinhead is for the most part a fun killer for me to play against just a well designed killer with Risks tied to nice payoffs. If you play well his chains will end up costing him distance if I fail to dodge effectively then I get punished.
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@Oiry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2726246#Comment_2726246
I completely agree. I must've added that I, for the most part, don't agree with his tier list, but let's be real, it's interesting to hear different people's opinions.
Not sure I'm a fan of someone putting forward the idea that the 1 v 1 is all that matters in dbd. Time to down and the 1 v 4 is what at the end of the day defines the win for dbd. Even if you get 8 hooks unless you have killed at least two survivors or escaped it's counted as a loss. You can say it's nonsense (which it is) but at the end of the day most people sit down to play a multiplayer game with the goal of winning. Tier lists exist to advise players on what the best characters/builds unless it's explicitly stated to focus on enjoyment or fun. This is a tier list aimed at the 1 v 1. To say otherwise is incorrect.
Dbd mmr system outline the defined win condition, get kills or escape. Untill the dev team say otherwise. It seems illogical to be making up and balancing around players perspectives on what it's win conditions are when there is no concensus. Most people default to kills and escapes since its the clear cut objectives of the game.
If in the future mmr changes to work off points earned. Then we can potentially reevaluate killers. But considering the chaser emblem last I checked was still bugged with Victor I don't have much faith in those systems.
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@Phasmamain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2726095#Comment_2726095
He is assuming the player has mastered the killer. In the case of deathslinger an old slinger could pretty much hit a shot anywhere. That is A tier worthy imo
Anyone who comes from a shooter background would correct you for the thought someones gonna play comsistently at aimbot level and hit all there shots. Look at any hunt streamer and you will see that even those that have clocked 5000+ hours still won't hit 100% of there shots. Especially when the weapon is a breach action single shot capacity with a muzzle velocity so slow it would make a derringer laugh (an exaggeration) but comparatively to other shooters the redeemer muzzle velocity is actually pretty bad.
Also has a max range of 18 meters as well and some shots will yield no down due to chain snap. Again indoor maps have become more widespread and severely neuter the killers potential.
Deathslinger was never strong. He always lost the 1 v 4 hard. The 1 v 1 potential is worthless if you have to aim shoot reel hit reload on top of a lower moment speed so map traversal is nightmarish.(increased numbers of large maps might I add). At most top of b tier in his prime. As of now bottom of b tier easily.
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So many bad takes. Some of the most egregiously awful points worth addressing.
It's like tofu ignored the big change to twin that increased Victor's vulnerability. Any twin mains (you know people who actually play the killer) consistently have stated even with the camping strat you still have a massive uphill struggle setting up the snowball. Getting the down is brutally difficult because survivors pair up and heal to lock the twins player out of the game.
Ffs plague in b tier? When coh boon is creating incredible time efficiency is so out of touch its baffling. I'm not gonna argue tofu doesn't know Billy but he definitely lacks experience on oni. With a lot of indoor maps and increased obstacles oni got a clear advantage over Billy.
Then there slinger holy hell. He said himself it takes a long time to get guaranteed hit on slinger that is not top of A tier. That is a baffling stupid take. Man's so obsessed with the 1 v 1 he doesn't see the wider 1 v 4. This entire tier list is a 1 v 1 tier list tbh. You can be unhappy with killer design but at least evaluate a killer on there potential to win games outside of the 1 v 1.
I get it tiers lists are opinion based but this one in particular reads like it was made 2 years ago. It ignores meta perks, time efficiency, map overhauls and the current playstlyes favoured by both sides. Honestly I can't blame em if he hasn't been playing much dbd I wouldnt want to either.
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I like the idea but do think 6 to 7 tokens would add a much needed comeback mechanic to the killer role so 2 gens left doesn't immediately spell tunnel a single survivor to win. As you state it it doesn't deter tunneling enough and is more cosmetic then actually reinforcing funner gameplay patterns. As for more increases the number of moris available but have them function similar to current moris.
I wouldn't be against coinciding these changes with a survivor buff that increases the action speed per dead survivor. Dbd core issues for me isn't so much balance as an abscence of comeback mechanics. Decision making dbd is so narrow and lacking meaningful decisions that it creates a sense of helplessness for both killer and survivor (ya horror game sure but no one wants to be on the receiving end of this feeling).
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
So punish people for playing with friends?
Doesn't other games do this. In hunt if you play with your friends, your team mmr increases as opposed to playing with a random who is similar to your skill level but lacks the comms advantage.
It actually makes the games much more competitive and fun. At the end of the day dbds problems in my opinion isn't a skill level issue its just a lack of comeback mechanics.
Ya you have noed for killer's and ya the dev teams messed with perks that ramps up survivor power based on missing teammates. But every decent game has some sort of mechanic baseline that gives a player hope to claw back a win. Whether it be shutdown gold in league, headshots in shooters.
If your behind as either survivor as killer you are screwed bar hatch which is at best a band aid and perks that consume build slots. Rotating game modes would allow experimentation with new mechanics at zero risk. So you can't even argue it would break the game. I have ideas though admitadly risky.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
It’s really not that difficult, to be perfectly honest. Start with the layout of the hallways, and go from there. It’s counterintuitive, I’ll give you that, but not that hard to memorise.
OK so there's a survivor directly below you. How do you find the drop down that leads to the survivor below and how are you gonna read the opposing sides movements within its labyrinth like hallways.
I genuinely despise this map and I hope whoever actually thought this was a good idea gets a wake up call on how to design actually playable maps. Maybe capcom pulls a stranger things and pulls the license just so we don't have to play that miserable map.
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There are plenty of excellent games out there with ambitious developers. We gave feedback this is how far we got. Unless people put there money where their mouth is nothing will change.
If there's no pressure to change why would they. Games like ff14 had the pressure of wow to get it to push forward and improve. Even if there is no competitors to dbd there are plenty of experiences that will give you aspects of the dbd expiernace.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2698843#Comment_2698843
So you'd rather have a strong boring and unoriginal killer than a weaker killer with an original fun power? Legit curious
Problem with that logic is an original cool power being very exciting is worthless when the payoff for achieving its dream fantasy scenario is maybe 2 times in one of 3 games.
Sure myers low tr builds with tier 3 being dropped out of nowhere as you get the drop on a person is fun. But if I have to go through loads of awful games to get it to payoff once or twice then I'd much rather a boring anti loop killer who at least gets to take advantage of there power without straight losing to poor map design.
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@lauraa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2608672#Comment_2608672
Sounds like Dearhslinger 2.0, no thanks
What a functioning deathslinger? In pinheads current design he plays similar to freddy with a lot of passive game slowdown which according to people who hated freddy was obnoxious. Its a lot of reward for just existing.
Imagine building skill expresion into your killer and being rewarded for hitting abilities that have high skill caps. Friggin nurse does the same thing as pinhead but rewards you with a hit immediately.
Always baffles me how slinger was targeted before nurse under your logic. Game design 101 difficulty of power illicits level of potential power. Otherwise we ask the question why is is so tricky for a low payoff?
Deathslinger was nerfed due to his low tr the quickscoping was an overzealous nerf that has left him in a miserable state.
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Nerf box, buff summoned chains a killer power should be on focused on his actual abilites not on a passive though admitadly you can influence it which is nice I guess?
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Btw overwhelmingly negative recent reviews on steam. I'm still absolutely livid so many content creators are insisting hes still good. Now that the dust has settled its seems clear that slinger might be heading the same direction as billy.
A killer who was umfairly nerfed and has suffered irrepable damage that will mot be undone till a full scale rework is done likely in two years time.
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History lesson Claudette is one of the most commonly used survivors. This was mainly due to her self care ability which in early dbd was much stronger. As a result a lot of player flocked to claudette. She also had a larger number of memes that often went beyond the hue hue impossible to see survivor. People found the hypocrisy of self care claudette looking out for herself funny with her character being an altruistic lore wise. Eventually she became the face character of a particularly awful steamer one who shall not be named (no its not JRM hes a funny dude). As a result many early claudette main's were trying to emulate the particular streamer and inspired some hatred towards the character. For context look at Elodie she carries none of the history Claudette carries and for the most part is a liked or amiable character.
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As long as dbd stays on steam its gonna be hard to overtake. If it gets epiced due to this nft nonsense then it might seriously decline. In 3 or 4 years time its anyone's guess whether dbd will maintain its status. But for one year at worst it could meet some setback's and continue trucking. That being said I'm on board for competitor's to come along and but some fire underneath behaviors booty. Many didn't see wow's decline and yet here we are. Dbd's still has to go to the loss of content creators decline and then it needs to seriously lose some player numbers then we can be certain of it's decline. Again a drastic turn by dbd to support nft's could very well lose it its presence on stream depending on how they go about it and that could spell serious doom.
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@FrndlyChnswSalzmn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2589501#Comment_2589501
He wasn't OP, people are just lazy and can't be bothered to try.
Guess zubat just a lazy killer player then. Obviously im joking but much like the billy nerf defenders your preaching a sentiment that is uneqivically hated by the majority of the community that actually played deathslinger.
Rather then just own up and say maybe they need to add some power to slinger continously stating slinger is a good killer with stong unique selling points is a blatant lie. He is inferior to a lot of killers and has some deeply problematic gameplay issues.
His limited range makes no sense. His reduced movement speed only serves to worsen his abiliy to traverse the map and apply pressure and his entire reeling mechanics makes no sense considering huntress and trickster can down with significantly less fuss.
Its very blatant that more players would rather see slinger be in an overnerfed state then actually have to play against him. But behaviour has a responsibility to respect and provide a fun killer experianceif they insist on massively downgrading the fluidity of his gameplay. How can you trust behaviour to not rip wholsale mechanics out of perks/killers.
Imagine if boon totems had a time duration. Would that not be frustrating setup for low payoff.
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@EntitySpawn said:
Seems like most people arent even grasping the issue with these addons...
It's cheap, non interactive for either side. I'm all for buffing killers and making them strong, like I said no issues with spirit before the nerf but going down to frenzy with 0 counter play at all is not gameplay.
I dont like when someone calls an issue and suggests no alternative solutions. Espicially when its a killer who is often near the bottom of every killer tier list.
Yes you can voice your concerns but at least suggest changes that actually helps the killer in your opening statement. Its poor form to punch down.
For example reduced stun time baseline. Gains a stacking haste effect (5% ms increase) that stack up to 4 times for each feral frenzy hit. Lasts for 30 seconds.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2589804#Comment_2589804
Yeah, quick-scope was most interesting thing about him and made him different from other ranged killers.
I just couldn't care less about him now, he is just worse, less fun version of Huntress.
So as someone above said, only reason why to play him is that you like his hat...
May I recommend nurse. It might technically not be a ranged killer but your almost as fast as slinger and when you think about it your the bullet. Also you get to bypass obnoxious map issues like breakable walls and multiple story buildings. That would be my advice to the Deathslinger players in general. Pick up nurse play something that rewards you for time invested. We gave feedback behavior didn't listen time to move on. Most content creators or survivors will not be happy with slinger until he stays in an overnerfed state. Blight add on's will likely be next. A key advantage to consider is nurse doesn't have enough players playing her to provoke a nerf blight does. Already the blighted crow, alchemist ring add ons op has started. Behavior doesn't do half measure so expect some nasty addition be made to blight.
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Regardless of your feeling on whether or not you believe ds should have quick scoping there no denying it was a selling point of the killer with his tr being another minor selling point. This is why he has a single shot instead of 3 or five. To mitigate his snowball potential. His range limit was again set because of his low tr that was the intent. This nerf is a betrayal of trust as all of deathslinger key usp's were removed. This can be done but it means that there is a need to add value to the killer something that gives both the survivor more time to react and increased payoff for hitting a ranged attack that is harder to land and utilize. Whether it be a baseline exposed shot or a bounty system to apply some kind of game delay that has dangerous consequences if ignored.
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It massively deter players from playing low tier killers as they will face slightly less difficult opponents then there highest mmr killer. For context if you main huntress or nurse. You play really well and hit high mmr your nemsis or trapper will be slightly below your huntress or nurse. The gap between huntress and nurse vs trapper and nemsis is absurd.
As a result high mmr survivors see a select few killers contributing to a gamestate where excellent players face off against the same crap invariably leaving both veteran killer and survivor players miserable.
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As long as comp dbd is in its current state nurse will unequivocally be the only force to give killer some prescience as a threat. Fix comp play and balance out high mmr gameplay and then we can talk. Until then nurse has a purpose as the killer that gives competitve dbd killers a chance. Last thing I want to say is comp dbd be filled with face camping bubba's.
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@Klavatoo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2557016#Comment_2557016
literally havent seen a blight not running blighted crow in like 20 games. I think they need butcher these two add ons because nothing else is being used and it makes it impossible to do anything if the blight has a brain. The only solution is pre dropping.
Careful we already have hit two killers previous patch. One adimitadly is in a much better place the other is likely a dead pick until something massively changes. Lets not piss off the majority of the killer player base.
The boons have already caused enough trouble with some being unsnuffable due to poor design.