WilliamSN
WilliamSN
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548586#Comment_3548586
Well... the logic is you basically take a perk that has no benefit throughout most of the game for a strong bonus at the end.
There are not many killer games where you get to end game and are looking at more than 1 more kill than you already have, unless you have built for it with a combination of NOED, blood warden and/or no way out. Usually, the killer wins before the generators are powered... if more than 1 survivor is alive when the gens are powered, you are probably not getting a 4k.
Hope and Adrenaline MUST have strong bonuses that really help you escape at end game to offset the fact you can well lose before you even get there. If you do get there, you get a powerful haste buff to make it a lot easier for you to escape. The Killer is still faster, but will have a much harder time catching you, so it isn't truly free escapes... but it is a strong advantage that without it, the perk is literally useless.
Now is it too easy to get to end game? That's a different argument, but the perks themselves are fine... if you ignore the MFT bonus...
So my point is, if you've made it to end game as Killer when you had no end game perks, your main objective is already lost, and you're trying to grab what you can at this point. If the survivors have beaten you whilst they do have end game perks, they should be in the winning position, because you had your window to win while their perks weren't active.
The thing with endgame survivor perks is that you're essentially saying "I expect to make it to end-game with only 2-3 perks because right now the game is that easy"
This is reflected in the loadouts and killrates, under no circumstance should survivors feel like they will pump out all 5 gens consistently enough to bring Hope and Adren that often.
Hope and Adren being this opressively strong just compound the problem because killer has no realistic way of coming back or even securing a few couple kills EVEN IF killer also brings an end-game delay build.
both perks essentially remove the agency in the final 10-20% of the match to the point where they might aswell just teleport the survivor to the exit gates as soon as all 5 gens get completed.
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@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548535#Comment_3548535
So by your logic "Blood Pact - Boon: Dark Theory - Teamwork: Power of Two" are all unhealthy.
If you said no because these perks have requirements and conditions, then you are contradicting yourself because Hope has a requirement that requires you to stay alive until all the generators are repaired, which is the longest requirement of all the speed perks.
If you said yes, this indicates that you are only arguing and not discussing because you do not have a convincing argument that these mentioned perks will significantly affect the match and in some cases may harm the team.
It is natural for the perks used by players to change (if the survivor has the endurance after being rescued from the hook, then why should he use BT? And also DS)
The game changes, so you have to change your way of playing as well. You can't play the same way for a long time and then expect good results. Survivors have tools to repair generators faster, so you have to focus on that and that.
Here we go with blatant false equivalancy arguments...
The requirements to activate Bloodpact, Dark theory and Power of two, require you to do something you wouldn't normally do in regular gameplay to activate their effects.
Getting hit, doing gens, etc etc ***are not valid*** limiting requirements , they are things you expect to happen, and you're guaranteed to get value out of the perk just for having it equipped.
A permanent 7% speed boost because the match is 80-90% finished is fundamentally unhealthy , it just took the meta to change from Super unhealthy pre-6.1 to Unhealthy in post 7.0 for people to start realizing that perks that guarantee escapes aren't balanced in the slightest.
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You're still missing the point.
Hope and adren came to the spotlight because the meta shifted.
we went from DS-DH-UB-BT to current injured chase meta.
Of course nobody complained about hope or adren back then because *it was never used* , you can't formulate an opinion on something that *wasn't used back then* , Now hope and adren are used in almost every build and its plain obvious to see that "Win harder" perks are fundamentally unhealthy.
Permanent haste effects in general are fundamentally unhealthy.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548035#Comment_3548035
How can i name a killer perk from a cherry picked situation from the other side. I'll say it again, There are tons of frustrating things on both sides and we would be typing all day if we were to start naming what one can consider 'undeserved' or 'a gift to' or 'mistake eraser'.
"If you're aware exhaustion perks are *much stronger and game changing* while scream based perks are "bad or average at best" , then by logic alone the full on 1 perk counter to all should be an exhaustion counterperk , aka give killers a perk to exhaust survivors the entire match so survivors can't use exhaustion. "
If you could counter the entire set of exhaustion perks with a single perk it would be extremely broken. The thing is you are comparing an all-out counter of like 8-9 of the strongest perks to CS that only really counters one overtuned perk.
"it makes no sense for a counter perk to delete effects that are "bad or average at best" while there isn't one to counter much more meaningful effects." yet it is not the same to have one perk against all exhaustion than to have a perk as solely counter of another. Would you like if bhvr released a bunch of perks that only counter an specific perk (Anti-Sprint, Anti-Dead Hard)? i dont think so.
"all that UW does is say "Hey, theres a survivor in this general direction" , that is not an "overpowered" effect by any stretch of the imagination." it is overpowered, it literally kills any stealth survivors could have unless they have CS. It even surpasses Lockers so there truly is no escape at all aside of being permanently miles away from the killer.
"On the topic of "all your eggs in one basket" im talking to the general population, diversify your loadouts so you're equipped to deal with everything instead of going full on MFT+Resi+Woo+adren/Hope then cry and complain that killer info perks are overpowered because you refuse to bring distortion or CS to counter them."
i dont understand why you keep posting these replies at the end. i often diversify my loadout, i may have used MFT+Resi+Woo+adren/Hope like twice in all my games. These two things are not the reason why UW is overpowered as much as it is unavoidable without CS and kills all stealth.
1 - You can't name a mistake eraser perk for killer because they simply don't exist, or are so weak they might aswell not exist.
2 - CS doesn't just counter UW, it counters every scream perk + Doctors built in tracking + if theres no scream perk in play you don't disturb birds and can open chests and totems fully silently. Don't lie like that.
3 - You can bet that if killers had the option to bring a perk in order to delete one exhaustion perk of their choice, it would become instant meta.
4 - If you want to stealth around, bring a stealth build with distortion and CS, makes no sense to complain that you can't stealth if you bring a Genrush / Chase / Medic / Whatever kind of build.
5 - this ties into 4, Im talking to the general survivor population, stop acting like you're the only survivor in DBD.
6 - when you have a permanent delete button for UW via CS and refuse to use it, it either signifies that UW is not that big of a problem, or you're too stubborn to change builds, again, a perk that deleted exhaustion would be instant meta for killers because exhaustion perks are *actually busted* unlike UW.
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@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548390#Comment_3548390
Just say you hate MFT with Hope
It is normal for survivors to be rewarded for completing their goals
No one complained about the perks that reward killers for completing their goals. As for NOED, it never rewards you for your success, unlike your failure to prevent survivors from repairing all the generators, and its previous version was much worse than now.(NOED was not a Hex perk It was active throughout the rest of the match and gave the killer 5% speed, and you could shoot down survivors with just one hit. this is its first release, and there was a bug that made it activate after activating the exit doors and not after opening the exit doors)
Tell me again what kind of goal you've acheived when the killer smacks you and you're rewarded with 3% haste + 9% action speed boost.
What kind of goal did you acheive by getting hooked and being rewarded with DS , OTR, DH, and a couple other "on hook / unhooked" perks.
What kind of goal did you acheive by *literally tapping shift* to run to be rewarded with SB?
What goal did you acheive by vaulting a window and being rewarded with Lithe?
What goal did you acheive by *sliding down a 2 foot tall hill* and being rewarded with no stagger + 150% speed via Balanced?
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You know very well the "its normal for survivors to be rewarded..." spiel is bullcrap , a good and balanced game has elements of back n forth , Perks that let you win harder like hope and Adren fundamentally break the back n forth element and as such, break the game balance. The game isn't over because you popped all gens, a perk giving you a free escape because you did 90% of your objective is fundamentally broken.
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For a community that commonly accepts that NOED is "op" or "dirty" when it can be pre-emptively countered by doing totems , and in case you didn't, you can still do it when its active without having to as much as search for it.
It makes no sense to not qualify survivor endgame perks as overpowered too, Hope giving you a 7% permanent speedboost for finishing up all the gens is quite frankly ridiculous and just guarantees an escape if theres more than 2 survivors in the end game, essentially bypassing the final leg of the match for free.
People keep making the argument of "well hope and adren weren't complained in the past, idk why you'd think its op now!!!" its quite frankly very simple, back then (DH,DS,UB,BT Meta) people didn't run adren or hope in the quantity we see today so nobody had enough experience against them to formulate an opinion and as it turns out, perks with extremely strong effects are to nobodies surprise, overpowered.
The extremely high pickrate of survivor end-game perks also indicates theres something wrong with the core game, only a lunatic would hamper themselves for 90% of the match with 2 less perks if they didn't think they'd make it to end-game, this is evidenced by killrates being in the high 40s to low 50s, and survivors being able to pull off 4man escapes in ~3 minutes in normal matches.
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Imo, bhvr needs to re-define what a conspicuous action is and include bodyblocks and protection hits as such.
Survivors shouldn't be able to weaponize a mechanic thats there to prevent them from being tunneled straight off hook to take a free protection hit for their rescuer.
Bodyblock/take a protection hit with basekit BT/OTR/DS? Disable the perk and send the survivor straight to the ground.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547949#Comment_3547949
I throw bias because you take a survivor perk, literally say its basic funcionality and call it 'gift' or 'undeserved' or 'delete mistakes' when the same can be said about a killer using a certain perk for a certain situation. but using those perks as killer is perfectly fine to you and not undeserved in any way.
There are tons of things that are frustrating in dbd, and we would typing all day if we were to name every single situation so i really dont want this to be another balance discussion like the hundreds that are already in the forum.
"Like you've said, exhaustion perks are in a different league than scream perks, they are *much stronger*." yes, i agree
"And again, like you've said, if killers had a 1 perk solution to delete exhaustion perks, it would be meta, and *in the same token* if you think UW is that good, you can bring CS to full on delete it. *And by your logic, CS is extremely broken on release*"
no, because as in LITERALLY the previous line we established that Exhaution perk as a Category are *much stronger* than scream perks, so a perk that could fully counter all these would be extremely broken. But Scream perks as a category are bad, average at best. All of them are not worth running as killer, let alone counter it, except for one, UW that is so OP that literally stomped over all other killer info perks.
so it's CS better than before? no, it's not. it's the same weak perk that hinders you unnecessarily only that now is the only counter of an extremely powerful killer perk.
"Both roles can bring counter perks that will not work sometimes, thats the point of bringing a varied loadout instead of putting all your eggs in one basket, if you wish to run an hyper-specific loadout, you deal with the consequences."
i wonder why you keep telling me things like "putting all your eggs in one basket" or "deal with the consequences if you run an hyper-specific loadout" when i have never told you what builds i use or anything like that. i dont know if you think i am an MFT lover or anything.
As for "Both roles can bring counter perks that will not work sometimes" i agree, but considering the only way to counter the most powerful killer info perk available is with a bad, very weak survivor perks that again hinders you unnecessarily, is a bad counter.
Name killer perks that go "oh you missed your M1? lemme re-wind that and give you the hit." Theres no "Mistake erasers" on killer side that even come close to exhaustion perks.
If you're aware exhaustion perks are *much stronger and game changing* while scream based perks are "bad or average at best" , then by logic alone the full on 1 perk counter to all should be an exhaustion counterperk , aka give killers a perk to exhaust survivors the entire match so survivors can't use exhaustion. it makes no sense for a counter perk to delete effects that are "bad or average at best" while there isn't one to counter much more meaningful effects.
all that UW does is say "Hey, theres a survivor in this general direction" , that is not an "overpowered" effect by any stretch of the imagination.
On the topic of "all your eggs in one basket" im talking to the general population, diversify your loadouts so you're equipped to deal with everything instead of going full on MFT+Resi+Woo+adren/Hope then cry and complain that killer info perks are overpowered because you refuse to bring distortion or CS to counter them.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547918#Comment_3547918
You have a clearly killer biased way to see things.
"survivor exhaustion perks that either delete or mitigate survivor mistakes and/or Provide undeserved and skilless chase extensions."
Every perk in this game is meant to help you in some way, you dont get to decide which is deserved or not. To extend chases is the basic funcionality of an exhaustion perk, and is balanced in that way because survivors are against a killer that is faster than them and has powers that help him/her too. It is in the same spirit as me telling "well, gen regression perks either delete or mitigate killer mistakes and provide undeserved and skilless gen slowdown/+gen time".
For the survivors being 'gifted' part, this is also clearly biased. Good perks are given to both killers and survivors alike(we are literally talking about UW). What i was saying before that you say i am complaining is that Calm Spirit is a weak perk (which is true), it counters a variety of perks that barely see use and was nerfed with the last 'buff' it received. Nobody used it before UW to the point that its name could be changed to "Anti-UW" and would be accurate. So you are basically gambling a perk slot (that debuffs you also) everytime you use CS. At least the Killer has 4 chances of someone bringing a perk they are trying to counter.
"Meanwhile survivors think its fine to tell killers to Run exhaustion addons and perks that provide the most meaningless "counter" to exhaustion perks and require killers to jump trough hoops just to get those 5 seconds of exhaustion."
Again, Exhaustion perks are in a different league than scream perks. If you could counter exhaustion perks entirely with a single killer perk it would be meta and extremely broken on release. But the options you have to try to lessen MFT value are more and are not exclusively to mft meaning If you use a perk like Blood Echo against Mft and no one actually uses MFT in that game, you can still get some value by hindering other exhaustion perks. If you use a killer like nurse or blight to deny MFT and noone actually uses it, you can play normally without being hindered or losing something.
This is what i mean when i said that mft has better counters than UW.
You throw bias around as if you know what you're talking about...
comparing slowdown to exhaustion perks erasing mistakes is laughable... what mistake did the killer do when as soon as everyone spawns theres 2 survivors on gens cranking them away? was not bringing corrupt a mistake...? whole different ball game to a killer sneaking up on you, and right before you get hit you get bailed out by SB or DH, you messed up, didn't pay attention, and your mistake was erased by SB/DH.
In the case of MFT+Resi ... missplayed? got hit? heres a permanent 20-30% longer chase than normal just by holding Shift+W , if the killer drops chase because you've made it to a pallet/window you didn't deserve, you can also crank gens with a built in Prove thyself (9% v 10%).
Like you've said, exhaustion perks are in a different league than scream perks, they are *much stronger*.
And again, like you've said, if killers had a 1 perk solution to delete exhaustion perks, it would be meta, and *in the same token* if you think UW is that good, you can bring CS to full on delete it. *And by your logic, CS is extremely broken on release*
Both roles can bring counter perks that will not work sometimes, thats the point of bringing a varied loadout instead of putting all your eggs in one basket, if you wish to run an hyper-specific loadout, you deal with the consequences.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547878#Comment_3547878
If this entire subset of perks is made of average to bad perks and 1killer out of 30 then yes, the perk is very weak.
It is completely different than survivors exhaustion perks because these are a lot stronger and a staple in every build.
Do you really consider perks like Lithe and Sprint burst are in the same league as perks like Face the Darkness and infectious Fright that you keep comparing scream perks to exhaustion?
No I dont consider scream based perks that just tell the killer that the survivor is "somewhere over there" to be on the same level as survivor exhaustion perks that either delete or mitigate survivor mistakes and/or Provide undeserved and skilless chase extensions.
Which is why I don't get that when survivors are gifted a full on delete to scream based perks, survivors still decide to complain because they can't fathom that they should swap around their perks instead of putting all their eggs in one basket with MFT+Resi+Windows+Hope/Adren.
Meanwhile survivors think its fine to tell killers to Run exhaustion addons and perks that provide the most meaningless "counter" to exhaustion perks and require killers to jump trough hoops just to get those 5 seconds of exhaustion.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547855#Comment_3547855
The benefit of deleting all scream based perk + doctor meant very little until UW was released.
Most scream perks are average at best, or the good ones like PR are not used solely for the info and scream part. And doctor is one killer out of like 30 killers so you have like a 95% chance of not encountering him.
Are you honestly considering Calm Spirit a good perk because it may counter perks like Face the darkness or Infectious Fright, and like 3% of the killer roster?
And it seems like you're considering the option to outright delete an entire subset of perks + a killers built in tracking to be "weak".
You have 4 perk slots, you can dedicate one to CS and scream perks will no longer be a problem for you, its a whole different beast from killer having to dedicate an entire loadout to counter exhaustion perks and even then the exhaustion perks still proc'ing because the effects are extremely minimal.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547836#Comment_3547836
and on survivor you'd get pallet stuns that should have been stuns but the server just goes "Nah, that didn't happen, try again".
There already are. Play vs an even slightly laggy Legion/Wesker, or just any Billy/Bubba, and it's very obvious, but it happens a lot. So it's clearly in place for certain aspects, but not all of them, which arguably makes it even worse.
I assume you're refering to the "Killer swings trough pallet, I drop pallet still get hit" scenario.
Thats a double action instance, whoevers action reached the server first will play first , killers also get some un-validated hits at pallets because of this mechanic, pretending this is a "survivor only problem" does nobody any good.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547829#Comment_3547829
Because there are better counters, and those are not exclusively against one perk. Objectively speaking, aside of countering UW, calm spirit is barely useful as the other scream perks and spies of the shadow are not remotely strong enough to use a perk to directly counter it.
So the only counter to UW you have is one very bad survivor perk, that only really helps against UW and not only is basically dead in your build if the killer is not using it, CS also hinders you by slowing down cleansing speed.
I am not saying MFT counters are great but at least if you use something like Blood echo and you are against other exhaustion perks like Lithe or Dead hard you can get some value, it also does not hinder you.
Same goes for instadown powers and chase related powers.
Really now? Complaining that for the benefit of fully deleting all scream based perks + Doctors built in tracking, you do totems slightly slower? I'd accept that complaint as valid if it was gen speed slowdown, but side objectives? come on man....
If a perk went "All survivors are permanentely exhausted, however kicking gens takes slightly longer" that thing would became instant meta.
The hoops a killer has to jump trough to get value out of Blood echo and other perks/addons is quite honestly an hinderence in of itself.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547577#Comment_3547577
Instead of favouring either sides client you could just... Favour the server? If the server received my position before the killer sent that he speared me then the server decides he missed, if the server received that I was speared prior to me sending my position saying he missed then I am successfully speared.
It'll look jank on high ping but that's good because we want to actually eliminate advantages gained from playing on high ping not encourage it further.
They tried this with pallets, and I admit getting validated on stuns was rather annoying. It wasn't as annoying (comparatively, to me, in my opinion, going from what I feel in a game, and I can only speak for me, so please do know this next statement is my opinion, to me, from my own vies and experience) as getting hit through every pallet as survivor, though, because it didn't happen as frequently and if you had terrible ping you no longer had an advantage, on either side. They should've kept at the server side validation for everything, like a true dedicated server game, instead of continuing to play on servers but with weird P2P rules still in place.
When you transition from P2P to DS, you should accurately and thoughtfully update your betcode accordingly even if it means a ground up rework. This did not happen in the case of DBD and we are still feeling the effects today from a shift that was trialled way back in 2019.
Like I've said in the first post, the server has to favor one client, and logic dictates that it should favor the client thats doing the "action".
Otherwise you'd end up with situations where on killer POV a swing/Hatchet/Spear/etc is showing Blood, producing grunts of pain yet no damage because the server said "Nah, that didn't happen, try again"
and on survivor you'd get pallet stuns that should have been stuns but the server just goes "Nah, that didn't happen, try again".
Theres certain things that can be done to mitigate the effects of lag compensation, for example, in the case where the killer goes trough the pallet, survivor longarms around the killer and gets the stun on the *same side as the killer* , you could keep collision on killer to prevent the second BS instance of a survivor noclipping trough killer to vault the pallet and land on the other side.
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@Rovend said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547787#Comment_3547787
At least Mft has waay better counters than UW. Exhaustion perks, exhaustion addons, instadown addons and killer powers, chase related powers and overall the survivor needs to have some looping skills at least to get value of.
UW gives you some great info value for opening a locker, and the only counter is a terrible survivor perk that debuffs you.
MFT's counters are exhaustion based addons and items that give a *slight cooldown* IF the killer meets certain specific requirements to activate the perk or addon...
Fearmonger? survivor has to be repairing a gen to be hit with a 5s exhaustion... 5 whole seconds of no MFT wooooo...
Blood echo? IF the Survivor with MFT is injured WHILE you're hooking SOMEONE ELSE he gets hit with 45s of exhaustion... and you can't do this repeteadly because of 60s cooldown...
Add-ons? anywhere between 5-10 seconds of exhaustion.... woo.... IF you hit its requirements to trigger...
Meanwhile.. "Hey, don't like UW or any scream based perks? here, take calm spirit and just outright delete them from the game, lmao"
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I have no idea how you can look at this and claim MFT has "way better counters" with a straight face, because in my book outright deleting a perk and all its subsets is way stronger than a 5-10s Cooldown.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547594#Comment_3547594
Everything that does not go with your narrative is outlier or something else.
The fact is, that most (26) of the killers have above 50% kill rate. 2 of those even above 60% and just 7 have below 50%. There's no way to spin around that one. You can't call everything that does not go with your narrative as outlier. Also there are 5 killers that have above 55% kill rate. If everything that does not suit your narrative is anomaly, then that's not statistics, that's manipulation
EDIT: typo. it's 5 killers not 4 killers that have above 55% kill rate
Good god... you keep acting as if the killrates are a curve going from 47 to 60s...
You have 31/33 killers in the 47-55 range
Then there's 2... sadako and SM.... that spike up to 60+ ... a whole 5% extra above the closest one.
If you cant see how a 5% spike that sets 2 killers very far apart from the average distribution sets them as outliers and shouldn't be counted (this while just ignoring the problems that current sadako and SM have which on its own explains the killrate spike), you need to go back to school and learn statistics all over again.
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As I've said in a similar ds post.
DS having 4-5 seconds of stun would be fine IF it had its offensive capabilities neutered.
Body blocking with basekit BT, then when the killer punishes you for not allowing him to *not tunnel* the killer gets hit with a 5s stun that is ridiculous.
And in the off chance you misstime your 10s count for basekit BT and give the survivor a hit speed boost, you can't even leave him as a slug because hes just going to b-line to a locker to force DS.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547555#Comment_3547555
1, 52.5% is the absolute highest point I would agree on saying "high 40s low 50s" because anything else averages out higher "low 50s to high 50s". This is something that actually corresponds to your last statement. Yet you can't put it together.
2, if you have killers that have 100% or 0% kill rate - then that's something to focus on. This is actually feedback section so such a thing absolutely needs feedback. And right now there are 2 killers with insanely high kill rate no matter if u like it or if you try to disregard it. They still contribute to games.
3, by your definition most killers are above 50% and everything else is outlier. Even those under 50% are just 7 champs (less then 1/4th of all killers). So you either take full interval (killers are between low 60s and high 40s) or you remove outliers (killers are on average above 50%). So finally. STOP THAT CHERRY PICKING. You do that in all threads
You legitimately do not understand how statistics work.
You have 31/33 killers ranging from 47-55 with 2 outliers in the 60s and try to claim that the average isn't 47-55 (high 40s low 50s).
It doesnt matter that you only consider "the cut off to be 52.5" because that is just purely mathematically wrong.
You're being given cold hard evidence that you're fundamentally wrong and still try to argue, you're quite honestly one of the most stubborn and blatantly biased persons on this forum.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547543#Comment_3547543
It's actually like people suggesting that the government develop infrastructure to help when an earthquake hits but people instead interpret their complaints as complaining about the earthquakes themselves not the lack of infrastructure built with earthquakes in mind and then start trying to teach them about earthquakes after they studied geography for 3 years...
Alright, propose a feasible fix for the "hitbox descrepancy" keep in mind the server is forced to choose a client (pov) to favor because of latency and net code.
Keep in mind BHVR once tried favoring survivor client and it ended up with the game in a much worse state where killer swung, blood came out, grunts of pain were heard yet, no damage.
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Imo, the bloodpoints are fine right now, takes about 600k to prestige, if you bring escape cakes / survivor pudding/ cakes or party streamers you'll be making roughly 60k per match (or more if you have the incentive + bonuses from other offerings)
I've made it to p20 on xeno while playing roughly 2-3 hours a day sometimes less.
On survivor there's alot of characters you can outright ignore because their perks aren't interesting in the slightest, so you can just P1 characters like gabriel, meg and kate denson to get some of the strongest perks in the game then dedicate the rest to your favorite character.
Once the 13th hits you can use your bp bonus to tackle other survivors to unlock their niche perks if you so desire.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547531#Comment_3547531
1, 2 kills per game is anything between 0 and 10 hooks. Literally anything. Hooks do not correspond to kills. You are totally mistaken. 50% kill rate just means that survivor has 50% chance to escape (a fair outcome) and killer is just as likely to win as loose (or draw where "the game does not count"). Yet in your world fair is not fair
2, I explicitly mentioned my source and the way how to calculate it. READ AGAIN. If my math does not check out, you can point it out. Just a note - I scraped those numbers via script so good luck finding a mistake.
3, even if you disregard SM - you still have average of 53.769446%. So it's even still above 52.5% numerical "border" where I would consider "high 40s/low 50s" to be valid argument. But it's not. This is you again twisting reality to suit your needs.
4, if we really disregard math averages and go at it your way of taking each killer separately - you are the one pulling out numbers. You yourself said there are killers above 60% kill rate, but that somehow does not count, because that does not sound so nice like "low 50s high 40s".
You're literally going " well 5 killers have 100% killrate , other 5 have 0% so it means all killers are 50%! See its all balanced!!"
The *literal mathematical "border" is the 5* under 55 = low 50s , above 55 = high 50s.
Again, you have 22/33 (TWENTY TWO) under 55% 7/33 (SEVEN) under 50% 2/33 are at 56% (a literal 1% above the cutoff) and another 2/33 as outliers at 60% (TWO KILLERS OUT OF THIRTY THREE)
So yes, low 50s-high 40s is the most accurate statement when it comes to killrates.
You're trying to overcomplicate math and move the goalposts to suit your narrative, it doesn't make you look good.
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@[Deleted User] said:
(person falls into a hole in the middle of the street)
"I really wish this hole wasn't in the middle of the street. There shouldn't be holes in the middle of the street."
DbD Forum's Response: "Do people not understand how holes form? Construction equipment digs into the concrete and continuously does so until a large hole is formed. (Posts picture of a hole in a street) That's just how holes work."
False equivalency....
This isn't something bhvr can "fix", it's all down to how latency works as a whole. The only alternative to teaching people as to *why* this happens is to just go "it is what it is /shrug"
A more accurate comparison would be someone complaining about earthquakes and demanding the government somehow stop earthquakes..
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3546994#Comment_3546994
Average it out. Take each killer, get their pick rate, multiply it by kill rate and add that all together. The result is 54.586% . Meaning killers kill about 5% more time then fair 50%. How is that "low 50s high 40s now" The math just not average out to that. At best it's "high 50s to high 40s"
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547024#Comment_3547024
How did you come to that conclusion? Just averaging out all kill rates (so no weighted average by pick rate=play rate) gives me 52.829% . That's still above 50%, but we are getting close now. Then again - if you don't average it by pick rate - you get also unpopular killers which does not represent what you actually get in your average game (but it's useful information for devs to know which killers probably need to be looked at).
EDIT: I added 2nd response to 1st one so to not spam posts
Again, i dont know what kind of math classes you took to come up with those numbers...
You have have 2 killers above 60% (sadako and SM) 2 killers in the 56 range (nurse and xeno ) 22 killers under 55% 7 under 50%.
What kind of statistics are you pulling out of your rear end to come up with "high 50s" when 29/33 killers are under 55% 2/33 are a hair over at 56, and another 2 being obvious outliers at 60+.
---
Also no, a "fair killrate" isn't 50% thats equal to 6 hooks a game. 60% is 8 hooks, which is a blatantly more close and fair game for both sides.
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I could see killers with built in slowdown mechanics being extremely good combos.
Sadako + xeno imo would be the most obnoxious combo by far , IF they could interact with eachothers counter (xeno hits surv with tape, tape destroys, sadako hits turrets to remove it etc).
If you dont do TVs and try to set up turrets sadako can just mori you outright, if you attempt to do TVs instead of turrets, xeno will be left as a chase monster and just slap the tape out of your hands and hook you.
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@Shaped said:
Any examples when latency works in surv favor? I don't want to start anything or deny what you people say but when hitboxes look stupid and you add latency on top of that you can't blame people for being annoyed with this.
Cutting corners and being hit is very annoying to experience. Only equivalent for me is when my camera moves on its own while I play killer on console because survivor is spining.
A very common one is when the killer is chasing you trough a pallet, the killer goes past the pallet and survivors somehow still longarm around the killer to drop the pallet, get the stun *on the same side as the killer* then noclip past the killer to vault to the other side.
I'd argue that whole 4-5 second sequence is much more busted than "killer sometimes hits a delayed survivor hitbox".
"Latency" favors the one doing the "hit" action, and in DBD, the one doing the hit action is more often than not the killer, with the odd case of survivors using flashlights or pallets.
If you want to learn how lag compensation works in general, heres a good video explaining it : https://youtu.be/6EwaW2iz4iA?si=_9u36H7n2LNiW_B5
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@averagemikaelamain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547128#Comment_3547128
Notice how I didnt say anything about the idea of the reveal and their requirements..Only about the reveal lasting in a radius that is attached to the killer as they move...
Be real here, what killers can actually carry that 5s aura far from the gen? Nurse and blight...? everybody else doesn't get much value outside of the generator's vecinity.
NWTH is fine as is, info perks generally speaking are perfectly fine.
If we go by "Well players shouldn't be able to carry wallhack abilities around" then undeniably we'd have to nerf a plethora of survivor perks like WOO, Deja Vu, Bond,empathy etc etc.
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@averagemikaelamain said:
Both of these perks are fine on paper. Do action,reveal survivors. Problem for both is simple. They last AROUND the Killer. Both Nowhere To Hide and Ultimate Weapon move as you move. This shouldnt be the case. Plain and simple. Too much information,too strong on the higher tier killers. These are all the changes required.
If you really think NWTH, a perk that lasts for 5 seconds, requires a non-regressing gen to activate and has a limited range of 24m is "OP" I wonder what you think about perks whos only requirement to activate is "get hit" and give permanent speed and action boosts as long as you're injured.
As a side note, UW weapon has a variable CD of 30-60 seconds (or more because it takes time to walk to a locker + do the search) since it only triggers once per survivor when in the activate state + requires a locker search to activate, and realistically, all the perk does is tell you theres a survivor "somewhere over here".
(Not to mention both can be countered/Deleted with Distortion + CS)
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3546019#Comment_3546019
Can we actually be honest? Stats from nighlight say that average kill rate is 54.586%. That's way above 50% and absolutely NOT in 40s. At least provide correct information (source weighted average from https://nightlight.gg/killers/viewer?sort=pick&shown=pick%7Ckill&start_days=28 )
I dont know what kind of math classes you took, but 47-48-49 is not "way above 50s"
you know for a fact the average would be *alot lower* if SM wasn't contributing 65% on her own.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3546459#Comment_3546459
Ah but equipping calm spirit makes u more vulnerable against totem builds. So either both are bad counters or both are good counters. You can't have cake and eat it too.
Are you really comparing shattered hope that should be a basekit ability whos only job is to counter boons a bit better with no other effects (99/100 times its a wasted slot since no boons) , to calm spirit ... a perk where even if the killer doesn't bring scream perks you still get a couple of other strong benefits...
Where does the bias stop with you?
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@GolbezGarlandGabrant said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545979#Comment_3545979
Not sure where you get killrates are 50%. If it's that user submitted site probably not reliable.
The only people who complain about perks being strong are killers. You wouldn't complain about Spine Chill or Self Care being worthy of a nerf but yet those perks are in the top 10. It's the ones that are obviously losing you games.
Why be disengenous? Nightlight currently has ~24k games in ~30 days it is an extremely good sample size from Mid-High MMR (you know, the MMR brackets that actually know what they are doing)
The BHVR official stats include everyone even the Low hour fresh installs that ONLY have access to Spinechill ,selfcare etc, Out of the "top 10 perks" the only one that isn't a "free perk" is lithe.
People keep refering to those "stats" to claim MFT isn't as seen as claimed, but the reality is, *Half the stats tracked were before MFT was even introduced*
---------
"The only people who complain about perks being strong are killers. You wouldn't complain about Spine Chill or Self Care being worthy of a nerf but yet those perks are in the top 10. It's the ones that are obviously losing you games."
Guess you must have missed survivor mains complaining about UW giving killers the ability to know your *general whereabouts when you're inside the terror radius*
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@GolbezGarlandGabrant said:
Probably because MFT isn't affecting killrates as bad as people think. I also reckon they want to create another strong perk for survivors. Wouldn't be fun if survivors were completely powerless.
Yeah surely just a weird coincidence that killrates started dropping ever since MFT dropped and we ended in the low 50s high 40s now...
A perk that undoubtedly breaks core gameplay by Allowing the re-appearance of certain infinites (Haddonfield houses are a major offender on this) + extends chases by 20-30% just because you held shift W + can cause undeserved extentions via pallet/Vault that you otherwise wouldn't have reached + 10s of endurance acting like a diet Buckle up *on every healing action*
MFT shouldn't even have made it past the brainstorming phase because even *on paper* the perk is absolutely ridiculous.
"strong" perks have a place in the game, but sadly the only way yall claim a perk is strong is if it increases your chances of escape from 50% to 99%.
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@NerfDHalready said:
i'm sure at this point they are purposefully keeping it the way it is. god knows why, but might be this:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545094#Comment_3545094
to be honest, as broken and bs as old hatch was, i kinda miss old hatch escapes as survivor. i never brought a key but ran my looting build a lot, and finding a key and plotting a multiple people hatch escape was one of the most fun experiences for me in this game.
or bhvr is building a chase meta, where we have very strong chase and info perks.
Thing is a "chase meta" would be fundamentally unhealthy because it would force everyone to run it or just auto lose.
Already MFT+resi+windows vs a pure M1 like myers, pig, ghostface , etc just puts the killer on a losing battle from the get go.
We don't want survivors uncatchable or killers undodgeable.
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@jordanjustice said:
Stop introducing perks that shows Auras. On either side. Its just a type of cheat.
It wasn't so bad when there was only one that survivors had to look out for really was BBQ & Chili. It was defendable and it didn't take any fun out of the game.
But now... like literally almost anything a killer does can show them the aura of the survivor. its just ridiculous. Unlike BBQ & Chili, most of these perks don't have a counter.
And yes, the aura perks should be taken away from survivors too. While it is not as detrimental for a survivor to a killer's aura as it is for a killer to see a survivors aura.. its still a mini-cheat and should just be removed.
Not quite sure why the devs decided that there should be no hiding in this game anymore, despite the games original premise was to hide from the killer.. but its definitely gone too far at this point.
Stop making perks that show the rival players' auras. Just stop. Let the match progress with actual skill, instead of the rival player knowing exactly where you are and every juke you make.
It comes down to a "pick your poison" situation.
Either you deal with perks that allow killer to have a general knowledge of your whereabouts (auras and scream based perks) or you deal with killers running gen regression spam.
Imo information perks are the least "controversial" option since it encourages you to look for other people and actually play the game instead of kicking and repairing gens for an hour.
Realistically there isn't any other viable subset of perks other than info and regression, chase perks like bamboozle are nice to haves but more often than not simple mindgames provide the same timesave.
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A simpler option would be to rework the survivor spawn system to ensure they spawn together and atleast a couple of meters from the closest gen (16m would be decent).
Or 30s of basekit corrupt intervention if the spawn rework is too hard.
Anybody that has played survivor or played killer with lethal more often than not notices survivors spawning directly on 1-2 gens. By the time the killer enters chase and downs someone 2 gens pop and a 3rd one is halfway done.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3543844#Comment_3543844
Same as nobody should be forced to play midwitch, saloon, wrecker's yard, azarov's, rancid and a lot other maps that favor killers
- someone points out how factually unbelievably hard Singularity is to play on lerys.
- viable suggestions and ideas are posted to make the game less *miserable* and remove auto-loss via map RNG
- someone points out that GOJ is undeniably busted beyond belief and extremely safe for survivors and needs a rework
Then there's you... coming up with a "killers dont deserve to play on fair maps" hottake.
Is it your day job to be unbelievably survivor biased? You can't be out here saying that with a straight face, i refuse to believe that.
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Think it's more of an issue related to half the community (console/controller) being unable to use "ranged" killers effectively.
Im going on a limb here and assume that "flicking " your tail to a turret on a controller is close to impossible and being stuck as an M1 killer for the entire match isn't a fun experience.
And if you're going to play an M1 with fixed map traversal , you might aswell upgrade and play blight and get complete map traversal.
Don't get me wrong, xeno is A tier, but sadly a good portion of the community can't even use his main power because of hardware limitations.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Half vent/half suggestion, but I'd really like to see some sort of map ban feature for killers. I've played 7 games of Singularity between last night and today. I got Lerys in 3 of them and RPD in another one. Players shouldn't have to burn map offerings to ensure they have a trial where they can use their power effectively. It wouldn't break anything to be able to ban the worst map for a killer. You could even have offerings take precedent over bans so players wouldn't have their offerings lost. Just have something so that a player with a specialized killer power isn't stuck on a super unfun map repeatedly.
Again, for the people in the back, I am fully aware that map offerings exist. I am saying that players shouldn't have to use them to AVOID maps. This is a basic QoL and fun consideration. The devs have stated in writing on these forums that they know some killer powers are not good on some maps. So let those killer players avoid those maps. Why force players into bad trials? What does that add to the game?
Imo, a system that prevents killers from being RNGd to maps that directly conflict with their powers should be implemented.
For example, ghostface and myers shouldn't be sent to ormond / borgo because the maps are very open and there's no stealth.
110% speed killers like trick,huntress, slinger etc. Shouldn't be sent to maps like red forest or any other overly large maps.
Or singularly getting sent to extremely indoorsy maps like RPD and lerys that turn him to an M1.
Of course offerings could still work as normal , but the goal would be to reduce the auto-loss via RNG that some killers are forced into via map.
(As a sidenote, screw badham and all its 5 itterations that feel horrible to play as a whole.)
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@blithes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3543437#Comment_3543437
i take nightlight stats w a grain of salt last i heard its not a good indicator of current stats because half the games aren't even entered in, correct me if im wrong maybe its changed since , from my knowledge, the game was currently sitting at 60% kill rate across the board which to my understanding is where bhvr wanted the game
Nightlight is self submitted endgame screenshot data from mid-high mmr players.
It doesnt show the "full picture" but the amount of data it does have is enough to draw informed conclusions.
And right now the killrates are in the low 50s high 40s , which indicates either killers are undertuned or survivors are overtuned.
And from a recent hens video about his "comp journey " where otz and other extremely high skilled killers were getting 4-6 hooks a game, its safe to assume survivors have a *bit of an edge* to put it lightly.
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The 5s stun would be fine if the "offensive" capabilities of the perk were nerfed.
The saved survivor being able to bodyblock, and incase the killer decides to punish the bodyblock he gets screwed over by DS just feels cheesy.
Not to mention survivors being able to force killer into eating DS by going into a locker.
If you're *actually* being tunneled the perk is fine, but deleting the ability of a killer to capitalize on survivor mistakes is not.
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Xeno is definitely A tier, the map traversal alone is very strong and having the tail always threaten a vault/pallet drop is extremely good.
However my pet peeve is that instead of just fixing the no slowdown bug, they went ahead and fixed the bug + nerfed it from 2ms to 1.2ms.
Nobody even had time to "test" the 2ms as intended.
Tbh, i feel like if atleast LANDING the hit granted you the 2ms or a faster recovery it would encourage skilled play opposed to forcing the tail into just anti loop.
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https://youtu.be/BjtFS6cpttk?si=KhTn1sWH3F9N3Aoi
Hopefully it adresses the *very generous* pallet generation that you can see at around 3:50 on the video.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542662#Comment_3542662
those are quite awful... damn...
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542852#Comment_3542852
that's the difference between me and this killer... I would have looped in circles to continually try to hit over the hay and see where it works and where the hitbox ain't bad (and not down 3 people as a result)
After i got the nancy on hook i spotted the silent hill girl on main basement with BBQ and she decides to try to loop towards the hook, then that crapshow unfolds...It actually ended up being a 4k slug because adam (you can see him on the right side near main building) decided he wanted to get involved on that mess instead of allowing me to hook one and then swooping in for the 2 saves.
That clip is a perfect example of "yall got slugged because you screwed up extremely hard."
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542574#Comment_3542574
I think the hitbox on objects is probably bugged at the moment. No proof, but if feels that way to me.
No proof? I gotchu.
Watch "Dead by Daylight 2023.08.30 - 12.32.36.02.DVR - Trim" on Streamable.nothing like having your tail strike getting stuck in the air molecules.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542667#Comment_3542667
Wait, weren't these the times where you hit someone, Killers hear scream, maybe something visual also happends as if you downed that Survivor but they were just fine running away? :D
Or "fake pallet hits" where you hit someone, hear the injure sound but the hit in reality is rejected.
Yes, when the game was objectively worse in terms of visual accuracy and visual feedback...
Thats when the survivor mains were happy with the game.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542617#Comment_3542617
Funny you should say that about my post but not the thread title.
It's common knowledge bad ping favors killers more than survivors, there's no us vs them right there. Killer's ping affects every survivor's game quality. I probably interact more with the killer than certain survivors on my team, ofc I'm gonna notice the killer's ping more than my teammate's duh.
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542617#Comment_3542617
No, it's really not.
If a Survivor plays on a bad connection, they get punished for it. If a Killer plays on a bad connection, they get rewarded for it.
That's just a fact of DBD.
You're both pretending that there's a conspiracy at BHVR to favor killers as a whole.
Lag compensation is a thing in every time and it will always favor the person doing the "action".
Either killers pressing m1 to hit you, or survivors long arming and getting a pallet stun while on same side as the killer, then noclipping and vaulting to the other side.
And quite frankly the second case is more much offensive since thats a whole 2-3 second sequence and isn't mitigated by preventing the noclip vault.
Here , learn how lag compensation works : https://youtu.be/6EwaW2iz4iA?si=WyA5gMJPfySZU1jz
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542585#Comment_3542585
I guess this goes for those killers then? Since they're the most common offender I see who benefit from it. My ping is decent enough, but I cannot control what ping killers plays on or if they're using VPN and bad killer ping is pretty common.
Thats a textbook us v them post, please don't do that.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542396#Comment_3542396
The game cannot be balanced around people who have under 50ms either because that is not always the average game. So if BHVR is collecting stats etc the majority of games could very well be on higher ping and that higher ping will give different stats than a game with good ping, I would assume.
Also there's many killers who play on VPN which is pretty widespread, or killers with bad ping forcing everyone else to play a predictive game than a reactive one. And I'm gonna assume like many things in this game that can benefit the killer old Xeno attack greatly benefited those kinds of players. Now I don't know how many killers would intentionally play on vpn to get those kinds of effects cause it's hard to keep track off, but that would make Xeno more exploitable than other killers.
As I've said before, you can't balance the game based on people playing on sub-optimal gear.
50-100 ping is a fairly average latency to have, and that "reduces" your reaction window by 25-50 microseconds... from a 0.600 ms window down to 0.597.5 or 0.595 , thats not much of an impact at all.
If your ping reaches the 200ms mark you should consider a new ISP, or give up gaming as a whole since thats in the unplayable range.
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Personally I'd agree to killswitch it because the perk is fundamentally unhealthy for the game.
However objectively thats not what the killswitch is for, so no.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542169#Comment_3542169
You cannot react to M1 with DH, I used to run DH pre-nerf and even when I pressed it on time it never came out. It's very latency dependant, on top of that playing with a controller as opposed to a keyboard adds more latency to moves. I've tried both and hitting skillchecks for gens is faster on keyboard than controller and a large part of the playerbase is actually on console and ping can vary wildly.
On top of that you forget the killer's ping which has graced us with so many moments of getting hit after you made window or dropped pallet.
Yes... its common knowledge that consoles have some input delay, however balancing the game around people playing on sub-optimal gear is not the way to go.
You'd end up with an attack windup so long it would look like the killer has to ask permission to the survivor to strike him and that would be ludicrous.
0.6s is more than double the average human reaction time and allows you to dodge anywhere between 1.4 to 2 meters depending on how good your reactions are.
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@Venusa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542274#Comment_3542274
Yes because exhausted on the ground wasn't a meme and dead hard always worked so consistently every time you pressed it! /s
1+1= 2
2+2=4
3+3=that don't make sense.
Anyways it's getting boring lol. Thank you for the discussion.
You're here acting like that happened 9/10 times, which is just factually untrue.
The norm was people DHing on reaction, an instance of server messup doesn't imply it didn't exist or happened.