WilliamSN
WilliamSN
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@EmmaFrostyEyes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3556136#Comment_3556136
“The problem with losing as killer is that it feels like a slowly twisting knife” man yall exaggerate💀
“If the killer slugs you, you can just go watch youtube for 4 minutes or play on your phone while you wait.” Ok then go watch youtube when you get your losing lmao if your solution to bleedouts is just watching youtube then do the same when you play killer
Tries to AFK as killer, survivors refuse to leave and opt instead to spam flashy blinds....
Both scenarios are not comparable, killer AFKing doesn't guarantee game end.
Survivor AFKing after being slugged guarantees game end.
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The problem with losing as killer is that it feels like a slowly twisting knife, you know you can't comeback, the game effectively over, yet you're still forced to play it out and endure 10 minutes of an unwinnable match.
Meanwhile as survivor, if you're losing you can just Hookicide and go next.
If the killer slugs you, you can just go watch youtube for 4 minutes or play on your phone while you wait.
The game needs a forfeit option, its quite literally that simple.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3555734#Comment_3555734
Yours and Otz's rundown of why Streetwise is unhealthy only proves that toolboxes are unhealthy, not Streetwise.
Look at the best case scenario for using Streetwise with literally any other item. It's very clearly not unhealthy in any of those, just when it's used with toolboxes.
Yes... thats why i called it a pure gen slam perk...
Why would you waste a *perk slot* to give your flashlight an extra second when an addon alone gives you 6 seconds.
The "teammates within 8 meters also benefit..." indicates the intended use is WITH toolboxes, because theres no realistic scenario in which people are going to double blind or double medkit heal together.
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Pentimento - requires a secondary hex perk to work like plaything, or a survivor doing a totem challange to even start activating, then can be countered just by cleaning out the totems again - fine as is.
Buckle up - Did not need the 10s of endurance, a proper "buff" would have been keeping the 10% haste and giving 1-2 seconds of endurance to protect the pickup if the killer swung right away. a guaranteed free escape in endgame thanks to BU is fundamentally unhealthy.
STBFL - Perk requires M1s only, takes time to build up stacks, stacks can be lost if you M1 the obession , only rework it could use is making it so M2s on the obsession also consumed tokens. otherwise, its fine as is.
Adrenaline - much like otz said, adren working off the hook and giving a speedboost + free healthstate is ridiculous. perk needs to be reworked to only activate IF you're the one to finish the last gen AND cannot trigger off the hook. having your last chase be essentially reset because adren goes brrr is fundamentally unhealthy.
MFT - Has been discussed before, but to keep it simple, 20-30% chase extension just for holding W + the free 10s endurance on any heal is fundamentally unhealthy, perk should have never made it past the brainstorm stage.
Knockout - only purpose is to literally slug, perk could be deleted and nothing of value would be lost.
Deliverance - Encourages tunneling, and punishes the killer for *not tunneling* by deleting pressure for free. Perk needs to be reworked to work the other way around, if the killer tunnels the person you just unhooked then you get deliverance. until then, its unhealthy.
NWO - Only issue is the 1v1, otherwise its fine.
Power struggle , forced hesitation , boil over, pain res, UW, FTD,Coulrophobia and rancor are fine as is.
Hope - allowing survivors to be as fast or almost as fast as the killer will never be balanced, perk needs to have a time limit. unhealthy.
Streetwise - Stacks on itself, allows a Wirespool+Socket commodius to crank out 60~/90 charges off a gen in roughly 30 seconds, stacks with itself for even bigger benefits. Pureform genslam perk. extremely unhealthy.
Hyperfocus - fine as is, only problematic when paired with other genslam perks.
OTR - Much like otz mentioned, 80s is way too long, allows the unhooker to bodyblock for essentially free, which defeats its purpose of "anti tunneling", allows the survivor to interact with killer powers without losing the endurance. Any anti-tunneling perk that can be used offensively to punish the killer for *not tunneling* is fundamentally unhealthy.
Noed + insidious - unhealthy.
Shattered hope should be basekit.
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The solutions are quite simple tbh
Survivors always spawn in a 4 man, as far away from a generator as possible.
Of course since in certain maps the previous fix isn't possible, so 30s of basekit corrupt intervention is mandatory.
Rework toolboxes to just sabotage hooks , and rework all the gen addons into sabotage addons, for example making BNP turn one hook into a sabotageable hook without needing a toolbox / Perk. Repair speed addons could be turned into "Hook stays sabotaged for longer" or something of the sorts.
The game should encourage interaction instead of "Hold M1 on gen, bring this perk/item to hold M1 on gen slightly harder"
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554586#Comment_3554586
who said it has to be survivor who is hiding? I've seen many cases where killers camped "dead body". Also killer has easy way out by just hooking (but it's true that by doing so he allows hatch play to be made).
It's just unfun situation to be in - definitely for slugged survivor at minimum.
The literal original post said it.
" I don't mind losing but just lying around waiting to bleed out while the other person is hiding it's frustrating".
The amount of times a killer camps a slug can be handcounted... its quite literally pointless self sabotage.
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Alternatively, punish the "hider" because he had 4 minutes to pick you up while the killer was patrolling and refused to do so.
This is effectively griefing / Unsportsman conduct.
This whole spiel of "Killers are bad for attempting to do their inherent goal of killing everyone in the best possible way" is quite honestly one of the most entitled takes of the community.
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@Venusa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553974#Comment_3553974
Being able to down someone immediately after they've been unhooked if the unhooker didn't have a certain perk was bad game design. If survivors are required to bring a certain perk every single match or else they're a detriment to their whole team, that's bonkers. No other player base for any other game would've waited and dealt with this type of game design if it wasn't for how loyal DbD's playerbase is. Basekit BT wasn't even a "balance change" it was a necessity.
every time someone mentions "killer hitting a survivor fresh off hook is bad" I feel like yall grossly overlook how that is more often than not a rescuer mistake.
If you decide to take the chase towards the hooked player and then *unhook infront of the killer* then it makes sense for the killer to be allowed to punish such a horrible play.
Knowing where to take a chase to and WHEN to unhook was a skill, nowadays that skill is effectively gone because survivors are freely allowed to unhook in the killers face with the only repercusion being a hook trade.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554227#Comment_3554227
Top SWF's actually don't manage comfortably against SM, as shown by the nearly hour long hostage match with Team Eternal.
Myers, Ghostface, Pig and etc all have tools to deal with MFT just fine.
Freddy and trapper get hit hardest, but that's more an issue with their design than with MFT, imo.
Wait what, name what "tools" does myers / ghostface / pig have that counterplay Mft?
We're talking about 3 pureform M1 killers here with no chase power whatsoever.
Did a new update drop where myers and ghostface start taking healthstates by staring at survivors hard enough?
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554254#Comment_3554254
Sure he can't pop 5 gens. But he can play rat with sole survivor, left behind, lucky break and self care + key or some other variant of the same thing. It's perfectly viable build that plays for being last person in the game and taking hatch - actively playing against other teammates
Yes and guess what happens if he does that... the team loses because of the forced 3 v 1 at 5 gens and the selfish survivor gets the hatch pity escape....
Thanks for proving my point that DBD is a team game.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554243#Comment_3554243
It's about as logical as your argument of 2K being killer loss. Deal with it. 2K will forever be draw.
Also I would exactly argue DBD is 1 v 1+1+1+1. You don't have cumulative score or cumulative BP. You don't have anything that forces you to even play w your teammates. Heck you have perks that helps you if your teammates die
"Nothing that forces you to play with your teammates"
This man just forgot that a solo survivor can't pop 5 gens while being chased.
FTP+BU
Medkits
Healing in general
Protection hits
Gen cooping
Bond / empathy/ lucky star / prove / a multitude of other perks that actively encourage co-oping.
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Imo, just a wheel chat system like OW or L4D2/CSGO with pre-written messages would be enough.
For example :
"Split up"
"Group up"
"Heal me"
"Help me"
Etc.
Would be enough to close the major gap that exists between solo and SWF which is on demand communication.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3554192#Comment_3554192
Ah but your definition is so much better. Just because dev's version can have quirks (that actually normalize in large-enough sample size) you define 2k as a killer loose and consider it better because of ??????? That's about as reliable as saying 3 out is killer win, because no normal person would ever consider having died or having friend die in some trial a success.
It doesnt matter what you "feel" , a 5 gen pop + 3E will forever be a win. Stop trying to strawman.
Survivors are a team and either win as a team or lose as a team.
Survivors popping all gens and getting a 2E because the killer decided to facecamp 2 Survivors in endgame still means the survivor team won the game and there's no way around this.
Dbd is a 1 v 4, not a 1v1+1+1+1.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553956#Comment_3553956
I am defining win/loss same way as developers define MMR. Meaning each kill (no matter how you got to that point) is a win and each escape is killer loss - with specific exception of a hatch escape that counts as nullification of the match. Killer is playing "4 games" in a single trial simultaniously = 1 game with each survivor.
So for survivor if he escapes via gate, he won. If he escapes via hatch, it's the same as if he didn't play at all and if he gets sacrificed in any way he lost.
Not counting some details (like MMR difference and such) to simplify stuff - if killers get 3+kills it results in a overall killer's win. If he gets 2 kills it's a draw. If he gets 1 or less kills, he overall lost.
This was explained directly by devs when explaining how MMR works - and I directly adopted is as a win condition. Is that sufficient answer? Or should I clarify any point (no sarcasm or anything else meant in these questions - read them literally please)?
It doesnt matter what the devs classify as a win/loss/tie for MMR purposes.
Just the simple fact that an actual expert survivor can lose mmr because he died via endgame camping is enough of a counterpoint towards the accuracy of Dev definition of wins/losses.
A match where the survivors popped all gens in 4-5 minutes but the killer 1 hook camped 2 survivors in endgame to death doesnt mean it was a "draw". Nobody would call this a fair/even match , The killer was still effectively beaten by the survivor team.
If you count a 5 gen pop as a "score event" you'll still end up with survivors scoring 3 Points (5 gen pop + 2 escape) and killer 2 points (2k) , effectively a 3-2 score in survivors favour.
Again, less than 3k is a killer loss.
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Pop has a very balanced risk/requirement vs reward.
You have to win a chase, hook the survivor and find a decently regressed gen to get good value out of it. From a 50% done gen you knock out 13.5 charges (30% of 45) , for comparison sakes, Eruption will always knock out 9 charges and jolt 7.2 charges. For pop to match these values a gen needs to be close to 35% done.
The issue isn't that "pop is overpowered " it's just that every single other regression perk got gutted so hard they aren't worth to use in late game.
Bring brine? Survivors can tap the gen and stop the regression or just finish the gen.
Bring Eruption? Chances are the 90%d gen will pop before you get the down. + has a lengthy base cooldown.
Jolt? Survivors will book it away from the gen or plot twist "tech" so the perk doesn't proc, while also requiring an M1 down.
Overcharge? The skillcheck is fairly easy to hit, and at the most you get 12.6 charges taken IF they fail the singular skillcheck.
Pain res? The 4 tokens are used up by the time you reach 2-3 gens, you're late game with no regression options.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553713#Comment_3553713
Tell me in what planet is a 5 gen pop + exit gate open + escapes realistically a "tie".A 2 man escape automatically implies all 5 gens were done *hence Killer lost at his effective main goal.*I think it goes to a statement where the game is balanced that you're effectively making a harder win condition for killers than it actually is.
As others have said a 2e is pretty rare as an event, it's usually more or less than that, just the average. However, in the case where you killed two survivors, two of the survivors don't feel like they won, two do feel like they did. That's a draw.
The game isn't built around team mechanics on the survivor side. Maybe it should be where survivors get a shared pool of points, but they don't, each is on his own.
No, im not making "harder win conditions".
3K+ is a clear win for killer anything else is just varying degrees of loss.
The survivor team still won even if in endgame the killer decides to facecamp as bubba to guarantee a kill or two.
A 2k will always imply 5 gens done with 1st kill at 1-2 gens left, because as we all know, if a killer 1Ks at 3+ gens the snowballing effect will guarantee a 3k+.
The individual survivor "feeling" doesn't really matter, you're in a team and you either win as a team or lose as a team if you manage to pop all 5 gens and 2E because someone got endgame facecamped, you still won.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553695#Comment_3553695
Just de facto defining a 2k to be a 'killer loss' doesn't make it true. It's genuinely a 'draw', and for at least two survivors it's still a lost game for them.
Statistical averages does not mean that a 50% or even 60% kill rate is 'almost always' a 2k result. You can't extrapolate that information from just the kill rate number. It's much more likely that 0-1k and 3-4k are the most common outcomes, depending on whether the killer can snowball in the match. With 2k being the least likely.
If I have 10 games, with 5 having 0 kills and 5 having 4 kills, I can still get a 50% kill rate because 20 out of 40 survivors died. But a 2k result never occurred, and the killer hard won half of the games as well.
@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553695#Comment_3553695
As i've said above, even though a 2k is considered a tie by the community, its effectively still a killer loss because all 5 gens were popped and the survivors were on their way out.You're kind of making up your own win conditions at the moment. I could say they should shoot for a 25% kill rate because that would mean on average the survivors lost someone which means they didn't really win.
If you're shooting for an idea that gens getting finished is a killer loss, until to balance that at 50%, that would mean in most games 4 out of the 5 players didn't even have the prospect of victory. That's not really a formula for a successful game.
Tell me in what planet is a 5 gen pop + exit gate open + escapes realistically a "tie".
A 2 man escape automatically implies all 5 gens were done *hence Killer lost at his effective main goal.* when killer can bruteforce a 1-2K just by camping in endgame I'd be hard pressed to call that a Tie, its more akin to consolation kills than anything, much to the likes of a hatch escape being a consolation escape than a survivor win.
The survivors as a team made it out, they effectively won as a *team*, just because they lost 1-2 people in the process doesn't mean the team didn't effectively win.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547611#Comment_3547611
So don't pick him up if hes blocking you? If you're not trying to tunnel them, then just hit them so they can get out your way if you're going for the unhooker
Thats not even remotely close to valid counterplay.
you're essentially saying "well, he forced you to not be able to chase the other survivor, so you must leave him slugged for 60 seconds so his teammates can pick him up so he doesn't get punished either way"
Thats a lose/lose scenario and that is not healthy, if you take the risk with bodyblocking, you also take the punishment if it backfires by going back on hook.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553655#Comment_3553655
1, hens is high MMR and gets good survivors. If MMR works. As everyone knows, you will get bad MM from time to time. If you need 1 game out of 50 to set record, you get vastly different result when you start to record next upcoming 10 (or more for those other streamers) games and record that. Or are you saying MM failed 10 (or 9) times in a row? Or will you repeat yourself that these 2 things are not different at all?
2, do you think you can get world record escape against lilith omen? Or supaalf? Or onepumpwillie? Or even Hens/Otz? Because I am pretty sure no matter your build and coordination, you just won't get close to 3 minutes against them (and these streamers are just extreme example to illustrate the point - even regular good killer will keep you in game longer then those 3 minutes).
3, how can you reverse my point by pointing the thing I hinted as stupid? Or are you saying that when I say taking speedruns is nonsense, that averaging good survivor vs bad survivor game makes some sensible point? How? I fail to see it.
4, so killer loosing a game is the same as drawing. 2k does not exists or is the same as loosing the game. Do I get your point right? Draw=loose in your world? Because survivor can't half-die. So comparing killer wins to sirvivor wins is just as fair as comparing killer loosing to survivor loosing (see - according to nightlight killer looses way less often as survivor)
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553667#Comment_3553667
You clearly watched different video then. Some video that does not exists to my knowledge. Not surprising one bit at this point.
Not to mention your magical math that counts with people on hook and people going for a rescue still progressing gens somehow.
As to your last sentence... match killer losses to survivor losses and count the rest to wins then. But your bias will never allow you to comptehend that you just can't bundle losses with draws together and pit them against wins. Draw is not a loose. I know it's hard concept to grasp on this forum, but really. Counting draw as lost game is just not fair
https://youtu.be/Bxf3uzI--ik?si=nTGuDuO0XlhYC_9M
Im not doing any difficult math, its literally what happened in the games, even with hooks and saves, they still popped all 5 and left in ~3 minutes. Game 1 is a *perfect example*
Lets be real here, a killer 2k (Community claimed tie) is still effectively a killer Loss, a 2k implies survivors did all their gens and were on their way out. Game 7 + Game 9 on the video are *perfect examples* of this.
@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553667#Comment_3553667
On the topic of killrates, a 50% killrate is not fair at all thats a killer loss/Tie every game and never a win.What?
There's no way you get a 50% with only ties and losses. The argument why it needs to be higher than 50% is that survivors are more likely to afk, but as the poster said, its more than a 50% rate.
A 50% Killrate implies 2 kills out of 4. (because you know, basic math says that half of 4 is 2) which in turn, for this to be a reality, survivors have to pop all 5 gens since only 1 person can escape trough hatch.
As i've said above, even though a 2k is considered a tie by the community, its effectively still a killer loss because all 5 gens were popped and the survivors were on their way out.
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Feel like this entire argument about "winrates" is off-whack.
Anything under 3k implies the survivors finished their 5 gens and were on their way out, a killer can force a 1-2k in endgame by just camping, so right off the bat, even though 2ks are considered "ties" they are, lets be real, a killer loss since the survivors popped all 5 gens and left.
With the previous statement in mind, killers get a win (3K +) about 46%~ of the time , which in turn means the survivor team win rate sits at 54%~
Survivor is a team role, with a goal of 60% killrate, some people are *expected to be sacrificed* , but that still means your team effectively won.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553488#Comment_3553488
So the problem is, that the game is impossible to win? Or that you can't win every time?
Killers already have above 50% kill rate. That's more then fair share. This is multiplayer game and every time you win, someone else has to loose. You just can't ask developers to buff your side "to always win" (without looking biased/spoiled).
Also, nobody asks you to play powerless trapper that can't camp/tunnel/slug. The video shows you that you can win most of the games even under these conditions if you are that good (meaning skill matters and it's actually on you).
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553517#Comment_3553517
No. It's the same thing. Survivors trying to genrush for world record are literally THE most vulnerable survivors they can be.
Meaning they HAVE TO face bad killer - or they will not get world record. Same thing as killer can't down team eternal in under 1 minute. I fail to see the difference.
To your next point - how can 4 survivors fix 4 gens when they are actively pressured (away from static location) and downed (killer's micro and macro skill) within 30s of spawning? You just can't work on a gen if you are downed or on hook - and that's killer's agency. You can be genrushed only if you as a killer fail to pressure them. I am not talking how hard that is (as that greatly differs depending on many aspects - but average case like tinkering with generator times affects all cases and for these I will again delegate to above 50% kill rate) - but the end result is the same.
To your last paragraph - I said myself to ignore extremes as they make little sense (because 2 mins gens and 4 health state survivors is stupid) - so bringing up more extremes is just confirming what I already said. So I don't get your point
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553537#Comment_3553537
So if killers play bad for a speedrun, then it's game problem. But if survivors play bad, then it's survivor's fault? Were you not the one talking that I have a bias?
You know very well that Hens' speedrun video proved your claims completely wrong, at super high MMR with killers bringing corrupt, DL, No way out etc, and actively *trying to win* they still managed 5 gen pops + escapes in 3~ minutes
Do you have any idea how many chases a killer can do in 3 minutes at a VERY GOOD 30 seconds max a chase? 6 chases... a whole lot of *SIX* chases..... Now if you're realistic and include the time to find the survivor +travel + hook, you're looking at *at a minimum* of 45-60s between chases. at that point you get.... 3 chases.... ***THREE WHOLE CHASES IN A MATCH*
You're welcome to grab a normal speedrun match (No farming / AFK) and point out the "killer mistakes" that allowed the speedrun to happen.
But im feeling nice so I'll save you the trouble. "Well the killer didn't bring corrupt or deadlock"
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On the topic of killrates, a 50% killrate is not fair at all thats a killer loss/Tie every game and never a win.
Its time to stop being so survivor biased.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553515#Comment_3553515
...Are you implying all of those things are overpowered?
The only overpowered things on this list are Buckle Up + For The People, and giga toolboxes. The rest range from strong but fair to outright weak.
None of them nullify your killer, either, if that's the part they're meant to be countering. At best you could argue Calm Spirit is particularly potent against Doctor, but let's not pretend that makes it OP or renders you literally powerless.
I don't agree with the person you're responding to, Bloodlust is a healthy mechanic, but this is a weird rebuttal.
Im not implying they are "OP" im stating the obvious.
Compare a Qnq+head on player vs a sprintburst / lithe / MFT player.
Nobody is going to claim qnq+Ho is overpowered because theres a fair amount of skill required for the payout, as in, you have to pull off a good mindgame. When this combo is used i just go "damn, that was a nice play"
Meanwhile SB/lithe/Mft bails the survivor out when the killer catches the survivor off guard / successfully zones him into a bad spot and its just : "wow... he just.... runs faster...."
The skill required to pull off a SB/Lithe/MFT "play" is significantly lower when compared to its reward.
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Now like the other guy pointed out, distortion just outright deletes aura perks and makes a killer perkless , even IF the killer doesn't bring aura you're able to rule out a vast majority of killer perks because distortion wasn't triggered and decide to clear totems. Same applies to CS.
DH still allows you up to 2 mistake erases. Messed up the mindgame? Got outplayed? Its all good , just press E for a free rewind.
Adren and hope essentially guarantee a free escape just because you've reached the 80-90% mark of the match thanks to the speedboosts / free heal.
Adren on its own encourages you to stay injured and abuse the 9% gen speed from resi , because why bother healing and waste 32 charges worth of time when you can put those charges on the gen and get a free heal?
There's a reason these perks are meta, and it's not because they are "fair"
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552504#Comment_3552504
https://youtu.be/vaR-9_Vjp3s?si=5tCHV3Zn97kmhKLE
You don't need to camp/tunnel/slug/use any perks/use any abilities to win if you are really good. Meaning you are definitely not forced to play blight/nurse or going for 4 slowdowns.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552572#Comment_3552572
If 3 mins is too quick for survivor, then sure. Make gens 2 mins each. But we also have records like this
https://www.speedrun.com/dead_by_daylight/runs/yw09vl0m
so this means we also have to add 2 health states to survivor by exactly the same logic. If we consider downing only, I saw some insane bubba speedruns with double iri addons - my guess is they were in under single minute (I can be wrong, but it was super quick). Or maybe it might make sense to forget about extremes and look at the average case? Which already states killers have above 50% kill rate - so there's ABSOLUTELY no need to raise generator times any longer.
Also - you keep talking about point where survivors spawn on a gen and use their toolbox for it immediately. I had countless of games where I had 1st chase a bit clumsy (alternatively survivor was predropping everything with WoO) which results in 3 gens in first chase. But the match ended in 4K at 2 gens regardless. It's all and only about killer being able to create pressure vs survivors being able to loop for long enough without using too many resources. That's it. What does it matter if even 5 gens pop quickly if all the survivors end up dying? And again - kill rate is clearly stating killers are more advantageous.
You bring that otz video as if its "proof" of anything regarding killer.
You had all Survivors doing colossal messups + starstruck value for free.
First meg sticks the gen instead of running, free hit 1. Then ends up DHing for distance into a wall... free hit 2.
Ace for some reason walks around the little booth instead of booking it and gets 1 shot by starstruck , free hit + free down.
Bill sticks the gen for some unknown reason and gets starstruck too, free hit + freedown again.
4th girl attempts to pickup in the killers face even though at this point it was obvious the killer had a oneshot perk and gets... you guessed it... one shot...
It was almost like survivors were just throwing themselves at the killer....
Killers dont go into a match attempting a speedrun because thats not something in the killers control.
Survivors can attempt speedruns because they can actually control the gen times.
When even soloQ lobbies can crank out gens in 4-6 minutes it's a clear indicator that gens are too fast.
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@mecca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553495#Comment_3553495
Survivors don't have anything overpowered and nullify killers. How about when survivors have perfect mindgames but killers get a little reaching hand from nowhere that says "I am sorry poor killer you seem to be having a hard time since the survivor is so much better than you, here's a little speed boost (bloodlust) to nullify survivor skill and get rewarded with a down"
I'm sure you have nothing to say about that.
Did this man just forget that :
Distortion deletes aura perks
Calm spirit deletes scream perks
Sprintburst bails you out if you're out of position
Lithe bails you out out of a bad z/L wall / filler pallet
FTP+BU allows you to pick a teammate up with 10s of endurance before the killer can even finish the wipe animation
DH still allows you to erase a mistake and prolong chase
Adren gives you a full healthstate/pickup when your teammates across the map pop the last gen
Hope gives you a perma 7% for the same conditions as adren
Toolboxes , especially commodius lets you crank out over half a gen in 10-15 seconds.
And to top it all off, you bring up a mechanic that BHVR introduced to bandaid fix bad map design / infinites as a "gotcha moment".
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553345#Comment_3553345
20% more time for the killer to catch up
20% is just to make the number sound scary.
In a 15 second chase, that 3% move speed gives 0.45 seconds of distance, which is 1.8 meters. That's still in lunge range.
After 15 seconds, the killer gains bloodlust, and completely negates the 3% from MfT.
Try using mind games, stop kicking pallets on cooldown, or do really anything that isn't following the survivor's exact pathing. Try zoning, using the killer's power. Maybe even turn your monitor on or stop expecting the game to hand you a win simply because you clicked 'play as killer'.
They haven't nerfed the movement speed because the counter is the killer's skill in chase, which is also the only reason this perk is complained about so much on these forums. Experienced killers all collectively go 'huh, that might've been MfT' while hooking the survivor they just downed. But it's far easier to ######### to the devs about nerfs than to examine your own game play for even one second.
No ... 20%chase extension is quite literally the best case scenario where a killer is 115 v a survivor just holding W.
Now take into account a pallet/window the survivor wouldn't have made without the extra 0.6m every 5 seconds, and youre looking at 200-300% extra chase time over standard because MFT goes brrr.
the "3%" is the number survivor mains want to cling on to claim the effects are small, meanwhile anybody that played the game more than once and knows basic math can confirm that the 3% isn't actually "small"
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3553022#Comment_3553022
I gave a response to that and you replied
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552655#Comment_3552655
"I stopped reading there."
So I will try one last time to respond. I even drew a little diagram to keep things more lighthearted.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/2ECSWPWGHQVD/solovduo.png
Situation A is comparable to C with no toolboxes, and B to D with giga toolboxes (Commodius/Event+WireSpool+SocketSwivels). I also removed travel time between gens in favor of your argument (as the solo gen times don't need to run between gens).
When Survivors duo on gens, their comparable time is roughly 16s longer than the solo equivalent to pop 2 gens. Heck, a solo Surv with a gigabox can complete a single gen only ~2s slower than 2 Survivors duoing a gen. The item is so powerful, it replaces an entire player for a gen. That's crazy. I can't see how co-oping gens could be considered a problem when Survivors are already penalized to do so. I can understand how soloing gens is a problem, because of the risk/reward ratios.
The problem is the fact that both things can happen in the same match.
Survivors split up or 1 + 2 on gens while you're chasing someone else and you lose 2-3 gens in 1 chase with absolutely no counterplay.
Then since the number of available generators effectively was decreased, survivors are more likely to pair up on a gen and crank it out in <50 seconds.
Pairing up is an eventuality because survivors will have to "meet up" for hooksaves, essentially guaranteing that no generator is "90 seconds" except for *maybe* first 1-2.
This problem is effectively compounded if survivors bring just a single commodius or "gigabox" and dump it on the first generator effectively guaranteeing that the average generator time in the entire trial is always <60 seconds.
This isn't even taking into account the multitude of survivor perks that give repair boosts.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552873#Comment_3552873
Essentially what I'm getting from you here is that the game is not killer sided on average, if you ignore all the people who make it killer sided on average. That is indeed how averages work, yes
As i've quite literally stated before, the game is extremely survivor sided once survivors know what they are doing and play at a minimal effeciency.
You can't make "sidedness claims" from the "average player" because the average player doesn't play the game correctly (effeciently)
Its akin to claiming the game is killer sided because the survivors threw themselves at the killer.
If you want to figure out what side is OBJECTIVELY stronger you have to look at the skill bracket where both sides play correctly, and that happens to be, you guessed it, High MMR / Comp level.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552787#Comment_3552787
In my post I specified I was talking about the game on average. If you care to read my original post I did mention the caveat that at the top level the game skews strongly in favor of survivors, but with the double-caveat that most people aren't playing at that level so it's irrelevant when talking about averages
your argument that the game is killer sided boils down to "Well if the survivors run straight at the killer, the game is killer sided!"
A good balancing philosophy is trickle down balancing, an item/Perk being balanced in high MMR will mean its fine for every MMR below.
However the contrary is not true, for example, while FTP+Buckle up in Mid-low MMR rarely gets big value, the same combo in High MMR is full on broken and makes Killers absolutely miserable.
Point still stands, when both sides play the game correctly, its extremely survivor sided and theres no way around it.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552648#Comment_3552648
That's what they're trying to do, but they're using evidence that it's killer sided in order to do it. Which is fine, it's good that on the individual level the game is killer sided! It's just also good to be honest about this fact
When even in comp settings with heavy perk + item restrictions for survivors the killers still struggle to 1-2K , thats a blatant indicator that DBD is not "killer sided" in the slightest. "Skill issue" claims are also invalid because well... they are literally *competitive players*
As i've stated before, Above mid MMR the game leans HARD survivor sided, once survivors learn how to juice an extra 30-40 seconds out of a chase , its gg over for killers because there simply isn't enough time in the match to account for 60-70 second chases, you quite literally only get about 4-6 chases in before all 5 gens are popped.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552006#Comment_3552006
How TF would the consoles make use of this?
Im going to go on a limb and assume that since BHVR can provide perk and killrate statistics they could easily just create their own statistics website/Information center Tab that pulls the data from whatever database they have and show it to us with regional/MMR data filters included.
Would help include non-pc players aswell as provide better insight to the community into true usage statistics, until then, nightlight is the best we have.
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Trapper - Trappers sack without the "can't pickup" penalty.
Nurse - Plaid Flannel. QOL change.
Artist - Severed Hands
Hag - Rope Necklet - QOL.
Twins - Toy Sword - QOL
Bubba - Chainsaw File - QOL
Doctor - Calm class 2
Onryo - Iri tape, essentially reverting half the rework.
Knight - Map of the realm
Xeno - Self destruct Bolt
Singularity - Kids Ball glove + Foreign Plant fibers
Trickster - Trick Blades + Caged Heart Shoes
All in all, theres alot of addons that either make sense to be basekit due to the characters power (Like trickster's trick blades) or should just be basekit for accessibility and basic QOL (like nurse's Plaid flannel)
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552655#Comment_3552655
Choosing to not engage when proven wrong merely proves you further wrong. Thinking a normal match is too quick, when I was consistently winning Clown matches with the 80s gens, shows a fundamental lack of understanding in how to play Killer, whether that be in micro (chases) or macro (gens/pallets). Check guides as how to play Killer if the gen times are a legitimate issue for you. Alternatively purposely 8 hook for a week (without kills), and intentionally lower your MMR. After that, you should be able to play in less sweaty matches, win normally, then finally reach a good equilibrium of Survivors with your skill level.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552685#Comment_3552685
The devil is in the details. Deadlock prevents multi-gen pops, so I would only consider that 'necessary' on Pig to space headtraps going red for greater pressure, or a dedicated facecamper build, but even then that is more QoL for Pig than truly necessary. Corrupt Intervention helps shore up a weak early game, which can be mitigated by playing the game on both sides and learning the spawn mechanics better, or hopping into bot matches with Lethal Pursuer for an hour and getting a 'feel' for the game. Once you have a general idea of where people will spawn and how, such as quad spawns, dual duo spawns, and split spawns, you can play accordingly and not 'need' Lethal/Corrupt anymore. I will admit I am a Lethal Pursuer addict, but I often run at least 1 other aura effect alongside it as well.
What is the counter for camping? Don't be hooked? Ok, are Survivors designed to never go down? No, Bloodlust exists, pallets are finite, the entity blocks windows after the 3rd vault, so Survivor is designed to eventually go down. Is it possible to do anything on hook? You can end the game sooner... So you are in a situation without agency. Agency is key, as you can always make a different play as Killer, but Survivor is balanced around moments of no agency before you are allowed to play the game again. Camping denies an end to the agency-less situation. Agency is the issue. I too hate genb4fren, but camping from the onset encourages that instead. The anti-facecamp gives some semblance of agency, but still won't prevent proxycamping choke points instead.
Feel like you're forgetting that during the 80s era, the meta at the time was DH-DS-UB-BT.
Chases didn't take an extra 20-30% longer because the survivor held shift W, or cranked out gens with Resi's completely unecessary 9% gen speed boost or the free permanent 6% shave thanks to deja vu aswell as a less developed/Veteran player base.
BNP's have been arguably BUFFED because they actively nerf the regression perks while permanently shaving off 10s of a gen.
Remember, 25% of 80 is not the same as 25% of 90.
All in all, arguments containing "well in a different meta killers could ...." are invalid.
Again speedrundotcom features solo survivors banging out gens in 4-6 minutes, which makes it hard to claim these are "extremes" when complete randoms without coordination can do it.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552329#Comment_3552329
The problem with that is it already is more efficient to split up on gens. Making co-op gens more inefficient will only make the problem worse in the long run. I'd argue the opposite, to have co-op be more efficient than soloing gens. If the Killer interrupts a coop gen, they disrupt 2+ Survivors, so a max of 2 gens can be pumped, but if a Killer disrupts a solo gen, they only stop 1, and leave 3 gens to be pumped.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552395#Comment_3552395
Yeah, maybe a perk that blocks the most progressed gen for 30s when a gen pops, or another perk to block the 3 furthest gens for the first 2 minutes.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552370#Comment_3552370
Yep develop different skillsets and raise your account MMR, that way when you swap to a normal Killer you can't stand a chance /s. That's why you don't want to get addicted to overpowered Killers. You need to lose to learn, and if you refuse to even stomach the possibility of losing, it will bite back causing you to lose more in the long run.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552427#Comment_3552427
Gen regression is an important crutch for players learning Killer. The problem is when people refuse to take off the weights and can win through bruteforce attrition. Making gen regression for Killer similar to Exhaustion for Survivor might be better than removing it altogether, but if they did that then I'd agree with removing/reworking Survivor gen speed perks.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552454#Comment_3552454
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552458#Comment_3552458
The problem with these arguments lies in the extremes required. Hypothetically you can have giga genrushers like seen in Hens' video with 3m22s average escape time, but if you take the opposite extreme, you can get speedruns of Killer 4king under 2 minutes with Billy/Bubba/Legion/Ghostface/Blight/Pinhead, and under 3 minutes with the vast majority of the others. The extremes mean nothing. The median and mean both matter much more.
The average (assuming the Killer knows how to play the game) has 1 on hook/being healed, 1 in chase, 1 going for the rescue/healing, and only 1 to pump gens. Even if that 1 person teleports to the next gen after every pop, that still takes 7.5 minutes minimum with no regression.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552496#Comment_3552496
The only way to hear 2/3 gens pop when crossmapping is to be AFK for a minute from the start. Just play the game and that won't happen.
-- Separate from the replies above --
Honestly I wouldn't mind a basekit scream from all Survivors with a Loud Noise at their spawn position. You could run Calm Spirit to negate it, and would make it more expected to be found early, so being AFK is all the more of a punishment. The Killer has initial intel, but nothing lingering, making Lethal Pursuer and Corrupt Intervention still have value. (I can't tell you how many locker grabs Lethal has given me from the start.)
This seems to be the primary complaint, is the lack of knowing where to start, and fumbling for the first minute. Experienced players aren't given too much more than what they already mostly knew/assumed. That way this primarily helps the whining Eruption MMR inflation Killers who mistakenly believed they were good at the game, and now are getting stomped against Survivors of their MMR, but outclassed in skill.
Coincidentally the speedrun site you posted also has soloQ survivors banging out gens in 4-6 minutes , hard to claim everything is an extreme when it happens so frequently without even needing basic SWF coordination.
The 1 hooked 1 chase 1 savior 1 gen cranker scenario would work if "while injured" perks and medkits didn't exist, survivors just take the free 9% gen speed boost from resi and crank out the gen instead of wasting 16s healing, or toolboxes essentially negating the timewaste from the heal because commodius with charge and speed addons cranks out half a gen + in 15 seconds.
Point of the matter is, gens only take 90s in the worst possible case , there's so many ways for survivors to speed crank out a gen thanks to unhealthy perks and items that no matter what pressure killer tries to apply it essentially doesn't result in anything.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552432#Comment_3552432
I absolutely do not know that. In fact, I'm pretty sure I know the exact opposite.
If you're struggling with your early game, there are things you can do to mitigate that. The silver bullet to guarantee a better early game would be either Corrupt Intervention or Lethal Pursuer, and I do definitely recommend either if you have either of them, but you can learn survivor spawns to better pressure survivors straight away, as well as equipping some other perks to either aid in your first chase (EG, chase perks like Enduring or Bamboozle or whatever works best for your killer) or to give better information throughout the trial (EG, Discordance to know when you can get massive gen pressure early on or something like Whispers/Darkness Revealed/Ultimate Weapon to give you a general idea where early survivors are).
I do think survivor spawns need to be fixed so they can't spawn all spread out, I already acknowledged that as an outlier situation where you kinda do struggle by default, but I don't think that happens frequently enough for every game to have impossibly fast generators outside your control. You can improve your play and your build to slow down the game, it is doable.
And you see absolutely no problem with killer being forced to either only play nurse and blight , or being pigeonholed into playing 4 slowdowns, or dedicating 25-50% of a build to have a marginally fairer match IF the survivors don't bring distortion and outright delete your LP?
When survivors already play with 5-6 perks thanks to basekit BT+ items , it makes no sense to not extend the same benefit to killer with either basekit LP or basekit corrupt.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552432#Comment_3552432
Losing two gens is completely normal.
If you're losing 4 gens in a single chase, you need to learn how to switch targets
Just because something is "the norm" doesn't mean its okay or balanced.
The fact that killer can be put into an auto-loss situation just because of map RNG+spawn RNG is fundamentally unhealthy.
If BHVR considers that fixing the spawns is too much work, then putting 30s of basekit corrupt is the second best option to adress the survivors spawning 3-4 gens from the get go.
Hearing 2-3 gens pop while you're literally walking from your spawn area to the survivor spawn area to *try to find them* is one of the most unmotivating experiences in DBD.
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@jesterkind said:
Barring for very specific exceptions (like a team with all good toolboxes who spawn on separate gens from the start), if your gens are flying super fast, it's probably your fault. That's not an insult or a condemnation, it should be a relief- if it's your fault, you can fix it.
Considering how much control the killer has these days over the speed of their gens, I do genuinely think there are probably things you should be looking at yourself. If the survivors don't all have top tier genrushing tools, you've got a ton of room to exercise your skill and slow down the generators yourself.
Your build is a good place to start. Slowdown perks are useful, but more important than just having them is them working as part of a coherent build. You can get away with just one slowdown perk if it works cohesively with your other three perks and your playstyle, after all. Then you can look at your macro play, and how well you're spreading your pressure, to see if you're maybe getting tunnel-vision on chases that take too long or on one specific survivor at the cost of giving the team uncontested generator time.
The cumulative changes that have happened to generator time, to slowdown and speedup tools, to chases, and to maps really do add up. The state of the game is really pretty good when it comes to your skill giving you good returns regarding generator time.
That is blatantly untrue and you know it...
Killer early game more often than not starts on a 90-45 second timer to find, chase, down and hook just the first guy.
The time it takes to *find and down* an average player on ideal circumstances still takes close to 60-90 seconds.
Meanwhile since it took 60-90 seconds to get your first down *in ideal circumstances* 2 gens pop, with a 3rd and 4th one starting to be worked on.
The game either needs a pseudo slowdown in the form of survivor spawn fixes, or killer needs to be given some basekit slowdown just so the game doesn't end in 5-6 minutes.
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@sulaiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552111#Comment_3552111
True, but thats also not the official bhvr statistics, where i expect kill rates to be way higher.
Lets be real here, a dataset of mid-high MMR , which is what nightlight provides is much more indicative of the game balance than a full on inclusion of all MMR's/Players, where you'll get overinflated killrates from Low MMR tipping the stats to seem killer sided.
everybody knows that DBD's sidedness is a progressive scale with MMR because as soon as people understand the loops and how to be effecient then the killer is bottlenecked.
Low MMR - Killer sided because survivors don't know how to "loop" and either just W key or attempt to hide.
Mid MMR - 50/50 tipped in favour of whoever brings the strongest stuff
High MMR - extremely Survivor sided because survivors know how to loop, know checkspots, how to abuse perk combos etc etc.
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@averagemikaelamain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552196#Comment_3552196
You do understand,right,that there is a difference between seeing resources and teammates,versus the opposite side. That's why blood amber is so strong. You're comparing wallhacks versus teammate infos that is 90% of the time provided by discord.
Be serious.
Yeah theres a huge difference between a perk that for 5 seconds tells me theres a survivor hiding there, and WOO and Bond giving me knowledge of where my teammates and loops are down to a T, so I can path 10x better than I would without them.
Dont bring "discord" into the argument because thats factually incorrect, the accuracy of the info you get from having *literal 100% uptime free wallhacks* is very different from your teammate saying "Hey, im at harvester".
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@averagemikaelamain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3547305#Comment_3547305
Also I don't even understand,if nobody else besides S tiers gets much value from carrying the aura,why are you even complaining about this? Perks will get nerfed essentially only in the problematic areas and be fine otherwise
Because theres a huge difference between a blight carrying an aura read across the map, and a regular killer carrying the aura an extra 5 meters.
Then again, back to the original point, if carrying aura read around is "problematic" then survivor aura reads like Bond, WOO, Deja Vu , etc will obviously need to be toned down too.
You can't make an argument to nerf a perk thats only up for 5 seconds, requires a non-regressing gen + limited range is a problem, but refuse to acknowledge that survivor perks more often than not contain stronger effects for absolutely free, and no, loading into the map to activate perma aura on teammates and Windows+Pallets is not a valid requirement.
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@averagemikaelamain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3551226#Comment_3551226
I thought Killer mains didnt like being forced to run tons of stuff to counter overtuned perks from the other side? If you concede that running exhaustion perks vs MFT makes MFT balance then I can agree with a take like that. If you dont then you're just being a hypocrite.
False equivalancy arguments... how lovely...
The correct comparison would be an hypotethical killer perk that outright deletes exhaustion perks instead of applying a 5-10 second cooldown like they do as of now.
If killers had a similar perk to distortion/CS that just deletes exhaustion perks, it would be ran 24/7 and you know it , because exhaustion perks ARE that annoyingly overtuned.
When you're given something akin to a delete button but refuse to equip it, then it either tells us the UW isn't that big of a deal, or you just want BHVR to let you run all the perks at once as basekit.
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Theres a big difference between maps being fair and being "killer sided" , just because the killer isn't at an auto-disadvantage to the likes of Red Forest, Garden of Joy, Badham , etc etc. it doesn't mean the maps are killer sided, it just means they are less unfair
For instance, Dead Dog saloon has a strong main building, with a shack next to it, aswell as multiple fair structures infront of the main building , the only difference is, killer has the option to neutralize the strength of these structures by breaking walls, this is therefore a good designed map.
Its an entirely different situation when you look at badham, with 3-4 Strong houses, 1 Shack, 2 House of pain style basements, 1 super strong main building basement + with a pallet density that seems like every step you take you're within reach of a pallet.
Or GOJ with an Extremely strong main building, filler/decent pallets all troughout around the main building, then decently strong Window/Pallet Gyms on the edges + Standard shack
Both of these scream Auto-loss unless you're playing a High A / S tier killer.
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@Grigerbest said:
Hi, I'm not sure if this will cure a tunneling, but... For a first step to fight this...?
Basically:
- First you hook Dwight - no additional bloodpoints.
- Second you hook Claudette - this is a +500 bloodpoints.
- Third hook on Nea - now it's +1000 bp.
- And for the last of a circle, you hook Jake - it's +1500 bp.
It should also work if it's like this: Dwight --- Claudette --- Dwight again.
After that you keep hooking different survivors and make yourself a +500 additional bloodpoints for each hooked survivor. In that case, you basically intensifies a killer to go for different survivors to get a better reward.
It also should include a pip system based on that idea, like you have a better perfomance if you hook different survivors all match. Maybe even depip if you're hooking the same survivors over and over?
Now... Should the killer get some sort of a penalty for tunneling along with this idea? Personally I don't think so, because when you tunnel 1 guy, you basically have no presure on gens, and losing a match rapidly if survivors actually sit on gens. It's a penalty by itself.
But if in need of a penalty... How exactly to...?
Tunneling should still be a thing, but only when the killer have no other choice to secure a kill.
I'm basically talking about tunneling from the beginning of the match (5 gens), which is pretty sad and unfortunate for the guy who getting tunneled...
The issue isn't bloodpoints,(killer can make anywhere from 60-80k BP regularly just with a single bp offering) its how innefective the strategy is.
A survivor that gets put on death hook early on is more likely to waste pallets aswell as play more passively troughout the entire trial, essentially reducing survivor effectiveness from 4 to 3.5.
A better solution would be to make certain perk effects like grim embrace basekit in order to encourage multi-hooking, Maybe give killer a basekit version of alien instinct so he has a far away target to chase.
My point is there's multiple ways to encourage multi-hooking, but BP bonuses ain't it.
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Just wait until you learn what Distortion / CS /OTR and a couple other perks do ....
If you think not having your perk for 30s every couple of minutes is "overpowered" , I wonder what you'd think of perks that fully delete someone elses loadout permanently.
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I've said this in a similar DS thread, 5 second stun would be fine, if the offensive capabilities of the perk were gutted.
A survivor being able to prevent the killer from *not tunneling* via bodyblocking, then getting punished by anti-tunnel tools like DS because he was forced to hit and down the bodyblocker is ridiculous.
And incase the killer mistimes the 10s Basekit BT the bodyblocker just runs off to a locker and forces the DS anyway instead of taking the slug state.
Overall the conspicious action criteria needs to be expanded on to include more survivor actions.
Bodyblocks, protection hits, Flashlight / Flashbangs , 50%+ heal progress, etc etc. are all "actions" you do that actively "attack" the killer or when you feel extremely safe.
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@Venusa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548680#Comment_3548680
Mind you, Calm Spirit doesn't even counter it. Survivor doesn't scream but you still see their location and the PTB didn't include a fix for this. So there isn't a realistic counter at the moment, you'll always get value from UW as killer.
https://youtu.be/AvuLKM1GEQw?si=9LXCvc5xO99jSh3T&t=13
Why lie?
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@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3549031#Comment_3549031
It's 7%. You can still catch up the survivor and There are big differences when you give killers speed perks and give survivors speed perks.
Also, if you are having difficulty and hate facing Hope, why not go after another survivor?
It's just that you hate hard things, well DBD wasn't designed to be an easy game and that's why Skull merchant received a rework.
For a skilled player, he can deal with situations when they become difficult and not in his favor
In general, removing things just because you hate encountering them is not a good way to balance the game.
I can say that Hex: Devour Hope is OP because it's hard to find the hidden totem and because I hate facing him even though this perk rewards the killer for his hard work , and the game should alert me that the killer will use this perk so I can prepare a map
Act smartly when things get out of control and not blame everything
7% on killer is fundamentally the same as 7% on survivor, you can't argue out of this lmao.
"Just go after someone else" is not valid advice, what do i do if the other guy also has hope? Just curl up and die?
There's a difference between being "hard" and impossible, catching a good looper is hard, catching someone running faster than you is impossible.
Nobody uses devour hope because it's quite literally a perk that can be removed before you even get value from it with the way totems spawn either out in the open or next to a gen, this while glowing like a las vegas casino sign. Don't try to compare hope to devour.
There's no "acting smart" about countering a free 7% speed bonus in the last 20% of the match.
Playing 110s? Enjoy a 70% longer chase... try to use your power? You slow down to a crawl and the survivor just lightning McQueens over to the next loop or out the door.
Playing 115s? Enjoy a 60% longer chase... and chances are your power doesn't have a catch up mechanic so youre stuck w keying (myers, pig, GF, Trapper,doctor etc etc).
Realistically my only option would be see into the future, notice the survivors will be running hope, and queue up as nurse/blight so the game doesn't even reach the the halfway mark before i 4k.
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Imo, bhvr needs to stop this design phase of slapping haste and endurance on every perk.
It's to a point where i don't even know why the survivor I've hit had endurance.
Was it styptic? DH? Basekit BT? extra BT? Soulguard? Buckle up? MFT? Somehow OTR? Something else?
Buckle ups effect was fine as is, if they wanted to buff buckleup they could have just increased the speedboost to something like 20% for 5 seconds, atleast you could still punish the missplay incase the survivor decided to attempt a pickup under your nose.
Right now it's either pickup the slug and get blinded/pallet stunned or chase the rescuer and then get hit with buckleup endurance, lose/lose scenarios are just not fun to play.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3548644#Comment_3548644
1.16+.35+.28 = 1.79% Hope + MfT
If 2% of Survivors are (taken to the extreme) 'unkillable' in endgame, yet more easily killable in mid game, I'd say that isn't a problem. They don't expect to make it to endgame, they are relying on the law of large numbers to eventually have that single match where they get to use their haste perks where the Killer doesn't just facecamp the basement hook in endgame. Remember, you need to be alive and not on hook to use hope, and since (at the time of this post according to Nightlight) ~91% of Survivors don't bring Hope, that means the Killer can easily chase the other remaining 91% of players in endgame instead (if they failed to get a 4k before the gens pop anyways).
Using dead by stats eu, we can find gen protection stat, or when you win (as Killer) before the Survivors pop the final gen.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/PQE9KZ03T6A7/gensprotected.png
I'm sitting at 74%. Even if we were to assume the final Survivor gets hatch every time (3k), and I get 0k in the unprotected cases (as opposed to the full range of 0-4k after the final gen pops), I still have 55.5% kill rate, which is still killing more than half the Survs when stacking the stats of the deck against me, and I even let people go when they bribe me with BPS/Anni Cakes. Still, 74% of my matches, Survivors don't even get to use Hope. It's fine as is, and haste stacking with it is also fine, because of the opportunity cost (of picking another, better perk) prevents them from having anything of real value.
The math you've done, im going to assume is missinformed.
Those percentages are how many people are running *the exact same build*.
This is the more correct dataset - https://nightlight.gg/perks/viewer?role=survivor&sort=pick&shown=pick&start_days=28
The data shows that in ~24k matches (96k survivors) -
26%~ used MFT (25k survivors)
25%~ used Adren (24k survivors)
9%~ used adren (8640)
The problem lies in the fact that survivors *aren't* easier to catch or outplay in mid-game because of the current meta giving you permanent benefits for being injured, and incase you break chase or get off hooks, you can slam gens 9% faster thanks to resi, then to top it all off they get an extra 7% Speed permanently because they inevitably cranked all the gens out.
Survivor endgame perks being used so frequently indicates that the core game *isn't* considered difficult by survivors, why else would you handicap yourself with less perks? Much like playing 1 perk nurse or blight, its because fundamentally the game is easy enough to not need the extra boost.
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@TabS said:
Slowly-but-surely it seems that the devs actually notice some major flavs/unfair "features" in this game.
Firstly, they finally nerfed the Skull Merchant (which I'm glad they did) so she can no longer hold a 3gen for 50 minutes ruining 4 people's fun and making the match a miserable hell for them.
Second, they'll add the seemingly good anti-camp mechanic. Although it needs some minor adjustments to make sure it really works (like they said that eg.: Bubba can't multi-hit the unhooked survivor thru endurance and just re-hook them) it's still an excellent start.
With 3genning somewhat gone and soon face-camping will be made less effective as well there are 2 major problems left:
~Tunneling
~Slugging
For tunneling I'm sure there are more experienced players who could say great suggestions to counter it therefore I'm not gonna discuss it soon. What I wanna talk about is slugging and 4k-slugging*
*(When the killer already killed 2 survivors, downs the 3rd but instead of hooking them he goes to look for the last standing survivor, bleeding the third one out and keeping them hostage.)
Some time ago there was a PTB (I didn't play it I just saw some streamers test it) that introduced a "basekit unbreakable effect" to the game (survivors didn't need other survivors to stand up from the dying state, they could do it on their own at all times). When I saw it I really-really liked it because this way slugging would be completely eliminated from the game.
Just think about it: now I don't see a lot of players use Unbreakable* in their build so the killer can just down survivors and leave them on the ground to look for more to down. If survivors could always just get up on their own the killer would be "forced" to pick up and hook; otherwise the player will just get up and continue playing. No more bleeding people out on the ground for minutes, no more looking for the 4th survivor while the last one just lays on the ground helplessly. They either hook or lose a kill.
As to why the devs scratched this idea is a mystery to me but it was actually one of the greatest improvements to the game I've ever seen.
*(A lot of times in my games even when someone DID have Unbreakable the killer just downed them immidietly and since it's only a 1 time use perk it basically didn't do anything to prevent 4k-slugging!)
I can't even say how many times I saw this. Either on streams/yt videos either in my own matches that the killer is just so desperate for that 4k that they ruin everyone else's game. Especially when it's a killer with a map offering/black ward with full-meta perks and the best add-ons. It's incredibly boring and frustrating when a game is already lost and the killer is just making it longer to ensure that they get that 4k at all cost. It's not how this game is supposed to be played.
So pls BHVR, you're on a good path currently, let's keep it up! Change your mind and make survivors be able to pick themselves up on their own so noone has to be slugged for minutes. Please consider it!
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/DMV73YGIL5N7/unbreakable-icon4.png
(P.S.: This discussion is not about Made For This perk; please keep it out of it, thanks!)
Mechanics to essentially erase survivor mistakes have no place in the game.
Here's an example clip https://streamable.com/8vmrli
In that clip would it be fair for the survivors to be able to self pickup after they screwed up so badly? Absolutely not.
On the topic of tunneling, more often than not "tunneling" is survivor induced, if the survivor decides to use his basekit BT to bodyblock or take a protection hit you've consented to being chased again.
Or in other cases, your teammate speedruns the unhook without letting the killer even walk 10m away from the hook. And at that point the best play is to return to hook and interrupt 2 people + put someone on deathhook.
Now camping, the AFC system in the PTB is extremely flawed by allowing survivors to grant eachother a free self unhook by intentionally looping the killer next to hook, or just going down *by the hook*.
This video perfectly illustrates the problem by the 1:10 mark - https://youtu.be/jDoo509XVD4?si=uopMvcNk4iAJW8ux
now when in comes to 4k slugging, it would be better to encourage killer to hook you, rather than punish. For example, after killing the 3rd survivor, the 4th survivor gets their aura revealed every 10 seconds for 1 second , not too strong but good enough for people that want 4ks to hook the 3rd instead of forcing a 4 minute bleedout.
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If there was a killer perk that gave killer a 7% perma haste because he killed 2 survivors, i can guarantee survivors would be up in arms demanding a nerf , yet the perks would be fundamentally the same, a permanent reward because you did a majority of your objectives.
Win harder perks like adren and hope are fundamentally unhealthy and there's no way around it.