WilliamSN
WilliamSN
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567056#Comment_3567056
My other point stays and even then the time frame between him dodging and the attack going through is that small, that I would doubt it is humanly possible to reaction dodge the thing with something else than pressing one button, like deadhard for example.
When the most average reaction time is around 200-225 ms, Im pretty positive you can react close to 3x to the xeno tail strike.
Also are you trying to imply pressing A or D to dodge is "more than a single button"? cause that has me extremely confused as to what kind of button combination you do to move sideways.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3567043#Comment_3567043
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUnmq7z6ZvY
That's also quite interesting to look at.
The point of the reddit video was to showcase the xenomorph tail windup animation, not showcase himself "dodging it".
Its plain obvious to anyone that played dbd for more than an hour that you should move out of a straight hallway tile ASAP , and thats what the reddit video did.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3566631#Comment_3566631
It is a 0.2 second windup, how exactly are you gonna do that Mr. Flash? ^^
Its 0.2 to "pull the tail up" and 0.4 to actually hit, you have 0.6 seconds to move and dodge.
If you're telling me you're 3x slower than the average human, then thats clearly not a "xenomorph has no counterplay" issue.
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@Ariel_Starshine said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3566720#Comment_3566720
I play without these and loop just fine. I've seen people use those perks and go down quite fast as well. I feel folks will complain no matter what. Can't make everyone happy.
I feel the real issue rn is tunneling. I got a friend into the game and after a day of being tunneled non stop he quit.
That boils down to the fact nobody runs anti-tunnel anymore and just banks everything on chase perks.
If survivor "basekit" is just run fast + vault fast when injured, nobody is going to think twice about tunneling because its the most effective way to win the game and theres no deterrent, after all, the guy off hook only has 1 healthstate to chew trough vs the unhooker with 2 healthstates.
Couple that with the fact that gens are being done at an alarming speed it leaves killer with no time to waste on a 2 healthstate chase against MFT+Resi builds so tunneling increases.
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All in all, BHVR just needs to address the "Permanent" status of Resi,MFT,hope and WOO + 30s of basekit corrupt and maybe 4s of lethal .
I'll never understand why Resi suffers from this big of an identity crisis to the point of being a Gen slam perk + Chase + Totem + Healing + whatever perk.
Revert Woo to 3.0.0 , Revert hope to the 1.3.0 version, and slap a 30s timer on Resi+MFT , this way the "just drop chase lmao" coments would actually be valid.
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This system is all fine and dandy if its only 1 map ban per team.
BHVR could actually use the stats from map bans to determine what maps are deemed bad by the players.
On killer side, I'd expect Badham to be banned 100% of the time, the map is just that egregiously survivor sided. (Why does badham have 5 reals anyway, the only difference between the 5 maps is just the 4-5 houses of doom positions)
On survivor side? Idk all maps seem fine to play in for survivors. Maybe borgo and reworked farm maps would take the map bans.
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@rvzrvzrvz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3564661#Comment_3564661
Meh you forgot the most important haste, bloodlust 1 and it's not hard to get it's just normal gameplay and basekit, new SM has permanent haste and slow effects if you complain about mft you should complain about that too it's unfair, any % speed of 115 is also much much stronger than % speed of 100
even PWYF stacks if you play any tombstone Myers you know stacks are not that hard to get and it's much more powerful than mft, very often in my games I'm convinced someone has mft and they don't in end game screen, they're just good, I can't tell if someone has it 90% of the time
anyway what do you propose for a nerf ? delete endurance and 2% speed ? people will complain forever even at 1% speed
You mean the same bloodlust that only triggers after 15s in chase + gets reset everytime you break a pallet or try to use power and is therefore not a factor on the great majority is killers?
SM doesn't have "permanent haste", you get the haste effect IF the survivor is radar trackable + the hinder only applies IF the survivor got radar'd 3 times and got a clawtrap AND IF the survivor gets radar'd again for 6 seconds.
also my brother in christ, the haste % means the same ammount of meters per second on both roles.
PWYF Stacks are hard to get, they require you to fake chase a very specific person 3 times, wasting almost a minute just for 3 tokens that will go away when you swing.
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The nerf MFT deserves is literally the simplest of things.
Endurance effect removed, and MFT is only up for 30s after being injured, then it deactivates until healthy again.
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@rvzrvzrvz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3564496#Comment_3564496
agreed, I don't use MFT I don't care if it's nerfed but if MFT is broken then play with your food and new chase merchant are giga broken. Need some coherence/consistency, if 3% is a problem then 15% of 4.6m/s is game breaking too
The "consistency" is that every single haste perk requires you to do very specific actions or have a limiter in tokens / time based.
To get the 15% from PWYF you have to find your obsession, start chase, leave chase, wait for token, rinse and repeat.
every single swing / Special attack also removes a token.
Rapid? hit someone, get 5% for 10 seconds.
Dark theory? Must place boon , then 24m radius around boon for 2%.
Power of two? must stick close to your teammate.
etc etc.
Meanwhile MFT sticks out like a sore thumb.
Got hit? heres a permanent 3% speed while you're injured, you also get a 10s endurance effect if you heal someone else as a bonus.
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@mca240 said:
We all know that tunnelling is a "problem" in the game. I have the following suggestion to "solve" it.
Once a survivor gets unhooked, they loose collision with the killer. Previously they could use their endurance to bodyblock. Not anymore as that mechanic is replaced. The survivor will keep their loss of collision until they perform a conspicuous action. . So far I haven't decided yet whether the loss of collision should be indefinite (until they perform a conspicuous action) or has a timer on it (30 seconds for example). This means the survivor can choose to remain "untouchable". That means though they are not contributing to the advancement of the game. This means killers are not disadvantaged. It would also work well with the just implemented anti-facecamping mechanic. I wish they would try it out in a PTB.
Theres something to deter tunneling already, its called *Anti-tunnel perks*.
if you think you're being tunneled that hard consider swapping your perks around to include DS / OTR / DH / Extra BT
Alternatively, consider bringing an exhaustion perk that can extend your distance from the hook, like SB,Lithe , Balanced, etc.
If you choose to run chase meta and go for unsafe unhooks, then thats a core strategy issue.
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As a side note, bodyblocking/protection tanking with BT should count as a conspicious action and insta put the survivor down, basekit BT is anti-tunnel, and using it to prevent the killer from *not tunneling* should be punished.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/DQKVQBF5KFU2/20231012205333-1.jpg
It activated one time in the match.
Please fgeel free to post your memes.
Ill start:
DARN
God damn it, youre going to get freddy nerfed again if you keep 4K'ing the kind of survivors that bring commodious to Sabo.
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The problem lies in the fact that if you down someone within 30-40m of a generator, the survivor repairing the gen can sprint that distance in 4-5 seconds and get a free pallet/flashlight save, you're not really getting "50% of survivors off gens".
Those 30-40m of range is equal to half a map's length in terms of distance.
If you take into consideration that gens aren't in the exact corners / edges of the map.... and now realistically, BP can make 75% of the entire map unsafe to pick up on if the BP survivor is on a center gen.
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@EternalRique said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3561108#Comment_3561108
Please it's literally autopilot for killer these days.
All of the hand-holding; too many killers are used to pubstomping and then cry when they go against good SWFs.
@UndeddJester said:
I find it laughable how there are people who legitimately argue that being able to effortlessly reveal/find your chosen target almost any time you want is no big deal.
Yeah... you mean like Windows of Opp?
Atleast UW requires you to open a locker, then get within your TR of a survivor to trigger the "the survivor is around this zipcode" scream bubble + only one scream within the 30s window its up + another 30s cooldown ontop of it.
Meanwhile WOO gives you permanent ESP on all windows pallets and tiles just because you happened to *load into the match*.
Ya'll seem to be forgetting that the power role is supposed to be killer, and as such it makes sense for killer to have strong perks, survivors having perks that allow them to 1 v 1 a killer is the most busted balance philosophy that could possibly exist, and thats what we have with current survivor meta.
Survivors are the ones meant to bring counter perks, thats why survivors have so many of them that sometimes outright delete killer perks, like distortion and CS.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560979#Comment_3560979
They somewhere explained that they cannot do that. Don't ask me why.
There are also some people who have to live with some UI changes for about a year now, which is also a "test".
A couple years ago when they were changing the wiggle mechanic from the old a+d spam to current one they had an opt-in test for the current one with a bp incentive after completing 10 or so matches with it on.
I see no reason as to why they couldn't do the same thing for the prestige test.
Tbh, the only thing removing prestige will do is make killers start to dodge commodious toolboxes because those are actual horrible to play against regardless of prestige.
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@ArthurVeloso said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560392#Comment_3560392
I don’t remember the last time they showed us right now. I need to check it up. Could you help me search for it? I remember that the last time I checked, the kill rates were above 55% and survivor rates were lower than 50%
Kill rates are extremely misleading and require significant game knowledge to interpret correctly.
For example, last years killrates would lead anyone to believe nurse is the weakest killer in the game, yet anyone with basic game knowledge knows that nurse has a steep learning curve and as such the lower mmr players are tanking nurses real killrates.
A better metric would be the number of gens done.
While a 4k at 5 gens and a 4k a 0 gens *look the same* they are fundamentally different matches.
The ideal balance state would be an average of 4 gens popped per trial, a good match for both sides that came down to the wire, with everyone coming out with 15k+ bp.
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Let's identify what the perk *actually does*.
Realistically all it does is tell you once per survivor per activation the general whereabouts of said survivor.
In turn the survivor also gets notified thanks to the scream effect and allows the survivor to pre-run.
It doesnt make the chase component any easier for killer, and provides a marginally decent survivor location.
Objectively the perk is fine as is, if you *really* don't like dealing with it, consider running calm spirit and you'll never get UW'd on.
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DBDs most balanced state was the period between 6.1 where dh got gutted and 7.0 introducing MFT.
You actually saw varied survivor builds instead of the mind numbing shift W simulator that current MFT+Resi survivor meta is.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560614#Comment_3560614
Holy cow, we still don't understand circle of healing even after it's death.
Circle of healing used to allow the 'self care' action, which comes with an inherent reduced heal speed of 50% that's applied after every other bonus. Circle had a +50% increased heal speed before the nerf, which was when it still had self care.
So 50% * (100% + 50%) gives a 75% total heal speed while self caring in the circle boon. That's also why the healing bar was still red despite circle having 'a bonus' to heals: you weren't healing yourself faster than 1c/s.
Since healing takes 16 charges, with circle at .75 charges per second, it's 16/(.75) = 21.333 seconds for a survivor to fully self care in a circle boon.
The problem with COH was the ability to solo heal at close to medkit speed, and without an actual limit which greatly increased survivor effeciency.
In regular gameplay a single COH could provide atleast 5-6 Self heals at 21~ seconds per.
Now, while a team heal takes 16 seconds, thats effectively 32 charges you're not putting into a gen.
Simplified math tells us that 1 self heal (21 charges not on a gen) allowed you to "gain" 11 charges of gen time compared to a team heal.
After 5 COH heals you've effectively "gained" 55 charges of gen time.
Now this is the simplified version, if you start including the fact that while you're healing, your teammate is free to pump 21 charges into the generator, it skyrockets from a +55 effeciency gain to ~ +200 effeciency just thanks to not needing a teammate to heal.
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Current survivor chase meta made playing killer a frustrating experience, resulting in killer players either swapping over to survivor or just taking a break.
This in turn, causes survivor queue times to skyrocket because 1 less killer player = 4 extra survivors in queue , and since queue times are now very high, survivor players also decide to play something else...
Quite honestly, the game's healthiest and most appealing state was that period between 6.1 and 7.0 where DH was gutted and MFT didn't exist yet.
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@Wowie said:
no? it's already pretty precise to get a blind, let alone a flashlight save
So we gaslighting people by pretending flashlight blinds don't happen outside of killer FOV?
https://youtube.com/shorts/i5bTbVPidgY?si=QhzlKNH0fhrRXpk7
You can tell the huntress is reasonably facing the wall based on the survivor aura, yet the dude gets the flashlight save from a 160-170 degree angle.
Flashlights shouldn't work if you're outside the killer's Point of VIEW , this blatantly needs to be fixed and adressed.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560183#Comment_3560183
Yep. But I know that it was my mistake at this point.
Pretty positive the concept of "Luring a non-camping killer next to the hooked survivor, then mindgame / Loop around the hooked survivor so he gets off the hook for free because the game now thinks hes being camped" falls under *exploiting an unintended flaw in the anti-facecamping mechanic*.
Dont believe it takes PHD in game design to understand that this is problematic, and needs to be ironed out just like inclusion of the grace period + dying / picked up survivors stopping the timer.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3560123#Comment_3560123
It is a Anti-Camping mechanic which is not really useful against camping. So...yeah.
Its an *anti-face camping* mechanic, if you got caught near basement thats a skill issue on your end, I know WOO doesn't tell you where basement is... but come on man, its a big hole in the ground, its hard to miss, especially when the spawns are fixed to either main or shack it doesn't take 1k + hours to "learn the maps" basement spawns.
Basement is designed to be a hard spot to get unhooks from and the PTB AFC system gave survivors half progress just because the killer is *leaving the basement*.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559689#Comment_3559689
WoO was never a bad perk. It just wasn't something most people needed or wanted to give up one of their other perks for. If you asked people back then, why they didn't use it, most would have told you something among the lines of: "I know maps, so I don't need it."
That qualifies it to me as being a 'pretty bad perk'. It's the same reason why Visionary is considered F-tier. All it provides is intel, and the intel is something you already have if you're sufficiently familiar with the game.
But now WoO has a different use.
It can't have a different use because it gained no different functionality. It didn't get a new synergy, it didn't get a new function, it didn't get changed in any way to how it can be used.
What happened is that its competition died a violent death and WoO was just left over in the aftermath.
"it didn't get changed in any way to how it can be used"
Ok cool, we just pretending 5.3.0 didn't happen?
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Can't wait to be told to equip Enduring + Spirit Fury to counter this along side the MFT Counter of Fearmonger + BloodEcho + Genetic Limits can't forget Corrupt + Pain res + Pop + Jolt to counter the Commodius Gen slam.
How will I manage fit 9 perks in my 4 perk loadout? thats a very good question.
Did I forget any other mandatory killer perks just so the games don't feel like absolute dogwater thanks to overtuned survivor perks?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559270#Comment_3559270
so what makes MFT not a "Small basekit buff worth using" rule? is there something wrong with pure shift-w chases where you describe the survivor milking 6 seconds in a 30 second chase? yes i am running faster and looping better. I have no clue what kind of expectations your looking for in regards to survivor gameplay. that is how survivor looping works.
And yes, fogwise falls into the Good and healthy category, it doesn't carry you , it gives you information on the killers whereabouts , what you do with that information is up to you. theres no permanent buff to chasing.
yeah it is pointless perk. it is why nobody uses it.
whole different ball game between Blight being a stronger basekit killer and MFT+Resi on their own carrying you trough chase without you needing basic brain function.
what is so different about the ball game? the first is power improving killer base-kit and second is perks improving the survivor base-kit. survivor do not have base-kit powers. their powers are their perks. it would help if you did not belittle the survivor gameplay. equipping chase perks makes chases stronger for survivor. who would guessed that one?
because mft is not a "small buff to basekit" its a 20-30% chase extension for free that you have permanently.
We're not talking about a perk like Brutal strength that lets you save 0.5 seconds per pallet or iron maiden that saves you a couple seconds when opening a locker, thats a *small basekit buff*
We're talking about a perk that you get massive and extremely free value just because you equipped the perk then pressed the combined total of 2 keys those keys being shift + W and now you get to milk an extra 20-30% of the killers time, and in the absolute worst case for killer, you make a pallet / window you didn't deserve because of the speed, and now instead of 20-30% extra you're up to 200-300% extra time in chase.
Survivor gameplay is literally that simple, Gen repair simulator 2023 half the time, and Shift W to yellow aura on the other half.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559223#Comment_3559223
my point is that every perk is a tool and player use most powerful tools to leverage an advantage. equipping MFT does not make you instant win as survivor. you need to use MFT as a tool to leverage an advantage in chase.
this is why I am using blight as symbol. your last sentence is like saying - playing blight should not net you free wins. being carried by a killer power should not be a thing. they should just get good at playing m1 trapper. neither player is getting carried. they're using tools to win the game. there is skill component in using MFT as there is a skill component in using good killer powers.
The other perks i've named provide game influencing effects that require minimal brain usage to pull off, thats the epitome of what all perks should be.
saying fogwise is a good perk is like saying m1 trapper is a good killer.
Yes... perks are supposed to be tools to assist you... not straight up carry you out the gate with how strong they are.
Equipping MFT alone, makes sure that even in a pure shift W chase you can milk an extra 6 seconds in a 30 second chase, theres no "tool to leverage" you're just ... running faster....
And yes, fogwise falls into the Good and healthy category, it doesn't carry you , it gives you information on the killers whereabouts , what you do with that information is up to you. theres no permanent buff to chasing.
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You're bringing up blight to strawman, like i've said, yes blight on basekit makes the game easier because hes well.. faster, but theres still a skill component to Bump logic and his techs. whole different ball game between Blight being a stronger basekit killer and MFT+Resi on their own carrying you trough chase without you needing basic brain function.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559223#Comment_3559223
Pain Res, PGTW and Corrupt via your own logic, are game winning effects and are thereby OP.
Why do you always try to spin things to make up a narrative?
Pain res, Pop and corrupt aren't "consistent" nor "Game winning".
they are all extremely inconsistent , you have Pain res with only 4 uses and some of those uses can be wasted on a non-over 25% gen.
Pop has 12 uses max (Realistically 8 because after 8 hooks someones dead and the game is closing up) + the charge removal it provides is anywhere from + 0.3 to + 25~ (Granted you find a progressed gen to kick)
Corrupt literally deactivates itself after a down and becomes a dead slot, and the survivor even if corrupt is up for the full 180s can still do any of the 4 other gens.
They all fall under the "Small basekit buff worth using" rule.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559081#Comment_3559081
survivor consider perk good when they produce consistent desired game-winning effect. MFT is a consistent game-winning effect. the perk extends chase time if the player is good at looping. resilience+deja vu is another game-winning effect. it increases repair speed by 15%. it is not 100% consistent due to resilience requiring being injured but being injured is relatively common in current dbd. Hope and Adrenaline are also game-winning effects that trigger in end game. assuming you win, it is consistent.
the other perks that you named are well... the opposite. they're inconsistent effect that are not as desired and coincidentally not game-winning. what you consider easy mode for survivor is what survivor consider regular mode. It is like survivor saying that you should play trapper as chasing killer and not play blight because blight is easy mode.
yes... and producing a "consistent game winning effect" is the pinpoint defininion of "overpowered" , Your skill and ability should determine the chances of you winning, being able to equip MFT+Resi and being carried by the perks shouldn't be a thing.
The other perks i've named provide game influencing effects that require minimal brain usage to pull off, thats the epitome of what all perks should be.
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And people do consider blight to be easy mode... because he fundamentally is, theres some skill when it comes to bump logic and techs, but fundamentally blight gameplay is just *run fast*.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559103#Comment_3559103
I'm grouping them together because they do do the same thing. There is a range around your character where things will be revealed to you; the difference is what they reveal.
Knowing where your teammate is allows for a much greater show of skill expression in your decisionmaking than confirmation of resources you already had the ability to know about. Far more. It may not be directly in chase all the time (though it undeniably is chase efficiency sometimes), but it's easily as strong, if not stronger.
Windows and pallets are never hidden from the survivor. They may be obstructed by a wall or something in any specific chase, but the survivor almost certainly has seen them beforehand. Survivors don't just exist in chase and nothing else, they walk and run between generators, to get unhooks, to evade the killer, to do killer-specific actions, to seek totems- and during that time, they have eyes and they can see the map, which means they know where the resources are. WoO adds literally zero extra benefit in this regard, save for maybe if they are the very first survivor chased in a match and that chase happens very quickly.
The only thing WoO actually does beyond what you'd have available anyway is tell you which resources have been used by teammates already, which is nice but hardly overpowered. I really don't get why any killer player would complain about WoO when it means that perk slot isn't being used for anything actually impactful- it's not a real chase perk, it's not an info perk for info they wouldn't have otherwise, it's not a generator perk, it's not a healing perk.
If anything, WoO being more meta just gives you more use for sources of Blindness. It's really not an unhealthy perk at all.
do you ever read what you type... "they do the same thing, they only show different auras!!" my guy... that means they are different perks with very different effects. thats like trying to claim UW and Hoarder do the same thing because of the loud noise notification.. good god, survivor mental gymnastics are at an all time high.
Again, claiming "Pallets aren't hidden, just obstructed by a wall or another object" thats the textbot definition of "hidden".
Are we seriously trying to twist and change the dictionary just so it fits the survivor narrative?
WOO is non-interactive, and all it promotes is the gameplay loop of Run to yellow aura, Predrop/Vault Yellow aura , Run to next yellow aura, rinse and repeat. this is fundamentally unhealthy and monotonous.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559099#Comment_3559099
But it's not like those resources are hidden. You can see them with your human eyes, WoO is just a little more convenient and means you don't have to keep such a running tally of where which resource is. It's nice, but it's hardly even all that better than not bringing it, let alone fundamentally unhealthy.
I also don't see why WoO would be considered unhealthy, when a perk with the same general design but much higher potency is in your healthy list. Bond also shows you relevant info while within a certain radius of it, but what it shows is something you won't know without some perk or source of aura reading to show it to you. Why is Bond considered healthy here, but WoO is considered a fundamentally unhealthy "easy mode" perk?
You're grouping the 2 aura perks as if they do the same thing.
Being told where your teammate is doesn't make your pathing in chase better the effect is considerably weaker than WOO.
Being told where a random pallet / Window you didn't know existed is, allows you to b-line to it and extend the chase even though you didn't actually deserve it.
And yes, often windows and pallets *are* hidden from view, the Wiki video literally showcases this effect.
https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Windows_of_Opportunity#3.0.0
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3559081#Comment_3559081
What on earth is fundamentally unhealthy about WoO? I'd buy that it having a super high pickrate could be kind of unhealthy in that it stifles variety, but that's not actually related to what the perk does.
The only thing it even does beyond what general map knowledge and human eyes would also provide is tell you when a teammate has dropped a pallet, which is a pretty fair effect for a perk that is completely deleted by a relatively common status effect.
WOO quite literally just needs to be reverted to 3.0.0 with the Cooldown after dropping pallets / Vaulting or some other activation requirement to have it up.
A permanent and freest of free GPS guidance system to all the resources on the map just removes skill expression and prevents killer from being able to effeciently deadzone a survivor.
Nobody considers themselves "outplayed in chase" if the other person is running MFT+Resi+WOO because its just auto-pilot DBD.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558734#Comment_3558734
that is what Pulsar is talking about. all the perks you named are what Pulsar described in his post which are perks that are mid, meme or straight bad. You don't see any of those perks because.... they're mid. that is why your complaining about MFT because it is strong perk that making you lose and you find that problematic.
No... those perks aren't "Mid" they are the epitome of what dbd perks should be, alternative abilities you get after completing a certain action, alternatively, if the effect is akin to a basekit buff it should be relatively minor, but worth the slot to bring.
Problem is, survivors only consider perks to be "good" if they are beyond busted.
Let's go over some examples of fundamentally healthy and good perks -
Autodidact
Background Player
Bond
Chemical trap
Decisive strike
empathy
Kindred
Smash Hit
Flashbang
wiretap
etc.
These perks follow the proper balance philosophy of alt abilities or minor basekit buffs that are still worth using.
Now examples of perks that are fundamentally unhealthy but considered "good" by survivors -
MFT
Buckle up
Hope
Resi
Adren
WOO
etc.
Do you notice the pattern here? Survivors only consider perks to be "good" when they essentially turn dbd into easy mode.
Run faster, vault faster and do everything else also faster, Pick your teammate up and be invincible for 10 seconds, have ESP on every single tile so you can artificially path better, get a free healthstate after your team pops all the gens , etc etc... and they all come at the requirement of either *Load into the match* or *be inevitably hit*.
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@adaw0ng said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558471#Comment_3558471
I mean if it all has come down to thinking that Blast Mine and Wiretap are the top tier of perks you don't want to go up against... Yes, I don't wonder you want to quit the game. I have never ever seen somebody complaining about this perks unless they were playing gen kicking simulator. If that's what you enjoy, I'd also take a break or quit the game, no surprise you got burnt out.
Be real here, what realistic purpose does blast mine serve?
All it really does is delay the gen kick by 3 seconds while giving the killer an eye pain induced migraine.
Im not saying its a good perk, but a game mechanic that possibly causes real life pain to another player shouldn't be in the game.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558616#Comment_3558616
Yes, and, there is a line where something can actually be unfair against lower skilled players.
Original Ruin would be a good example. Higher skilled players hit Great skillchecks much more frequently, meaning they had a pretty decent chance against that perk. Lower skilled players, though, can range from only being able to hit Good skillchecks to not even being able to consistently do that. Ergo, Ruin was a perk that was unfair to lower skilled players even though they were capable of improving their own skill to aid in countering it.
You have to find a middle ground. This goes for any game, not just DBD. Ergo, you balance for everyone and skew towards the average, to make sure that lower skilled players are being given fair challenges without doing too much harm to the experience of higher skilled players. That is the only way of balancing live service games like this that will ever stand a chance of working.
I've already adressed ruin in a previous post, the perk isn't a valid example because it fundamentally wasn't even balanced in high mmr.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558586#Comment_3558586
I did? Things that are balanced at higher MMR will not be balanced at lower MMR because of the inherent skill gap. It's also possible for things to be the other way around, too; something that a low skill player cannot utilise well, but a higher skill player can make absolutely unbearable.
More to the point, though, I am not specifically talking about perks here, I'm talking about the game as a whole. Setups that might be balanced at high MMR might be unbearable for one side lower down the latter; that's the entire reason the term "noobstomper" even exists.
Obviously to some degree lower skilled players should be expected to improve their skill, but there is a point at which it becomes unreasonable to expect a sharp increase in skill in a very short period of time, if something is genuinely unbalanced for lower levels.
Like I said, you balance for everyone and you skew for the average. That just makes sense.
Yes... lower mmr players are indeed expected to improve overtime instead of complaining , thats the whole point.
If low mmrs struggle to hit skillchecks we don't go and make skillchecks easier to hit because that will fundamentally break high mmr and gut skillcheck perks, you just teach them how to listen to the sound cue and practice in order to get good.
If a low mmr claims ghostface is overpowered because of his stealth we don't nerf ghostface, you tell the low mmr to turn his neck and be vigilant.
Perks are a problem when no matter how good you are they are still opressively strong and you can't work around them.
FTP+BU are a great example of something that regardless of how good a killer is, he cannot outplay or work around the insta pickup+10s endurance.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558586#Comment_3558586
"Perks that are balanced at high mmr are balanced at lower mmrs this is defacto."
LMAO, this is the most blatantly wrong thing I've heard in a long time.
Old Ruin Undying was balanced at high MMR because people would split up and power through it.
The perk was NOT balanced at average MMR because you couldn't reasonably cleanse 5 totems without throwing.
Ancient Ruin was balanced at high MMR because players had totem spots memorized and because they could consistently hit Great Skill Checks.
The perk was not balanced at average MMR because new players didn't know where the totems where and couldn't hit Greats.
I can keep going, but I hope you get the point.
Original ruin wasn't balanced at high mmr to begin with.
It takes AI level of "skill" to pull off greats 100% of the time just to *not lose progress*.
And i highly doubt people had "totem spots memorized". Like sure you can remember a couple predetermined spots per map, but remembering 5 totem spots per map + every single tile permutation on said map is downright impossible.
But sure, keep throwing up perks.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558522#Comment_3558522
This is also incorrect. Things that are balanced at high MMR can be completely, abysmally unplayable at lower MMR, because of the inherent skill gap.
What you actually need to do as a game dev is to balance for everyone, and skew towards the average. You don't ignore what's causing problems higher up, but you do the sensible thing and apply your finite focus more consistently towards the majority. The game needs its newer and lesser skilled players because they are by far a majority in most games, I see no reason to assume it would be different for DBD.
To the wider topic: it's not that Nighlight is always inherently inaccurate, it's that you can't guarantee that the numbers you're seeing are valid. It's usually a good general indicator for top picked things in EU/NA servers, but it's clear that it has a bias that trends towards those two things; it trends towards the top picked stuff and it trends towards EU/NA servers, because of who is uploading their data there.
It's fine to refer to it, but you can't treat its numbers as gospel. You can't say "this specific perk has X% pickrate, that's clearly a problem!" when you have no real way of knowing if that specific number is actually accurate.
Usually you're supposed to provide a valid counter argument with some kind of evidence, not just go "well you're wrong lol".
Perks that are balanced at high mmr are balanced at lower mmrs this is defacto.
A perk *looking* like its good because the other side has severe skill issue is not a *balance problem* it would be like claiming any means necessary is overpowered when you refuse to kick pallets / do chase cleanup.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3558126#Comment_3558126
The vast majority of the playerbase is in the low to mid MMR area, and that's where they mostly balance for, and what they keep in mind for changes mainly.
That kind of balance perspective is what leads to blatantly busted perk designs.
Balance should inherently be done with the most efficient/ best players in mind.
A perk balanced in high mmr is a balanced perk for any mmr, due to the nature of trickle down Balance.
It's plain obvious to see that if they buffed a perk like hyperfocus because "low-mid mmr players struggle with their skillchecks" , it would lead to absolutely horrible gen slam matches in the high MMRs because people actually hit their skillchecks.
---
Ironically people call mft balanced because of this exact problem. "Well MFT in low ranks has minimal effect, it's only the good loopers that make it seem busted"
Imo, MFT is long overdue for a ol yeller treatment.
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@Venusa said:
They only reverted his movement penalty for missing a tail attack back to the same value on PTB.
But when doing this something happened. Now the hitbox feels kinda off and your camera gets locked in the position you hit. Because of these bugs people might be turned off from playing them or the chapter hype just died down.
(Ps. don't take advice from people who can't differentiate bugs from nerfs.😇)
Let's not pretend the PTB is "extensively tested".
Consoles and epic players can't even access it, and from steam the ones with the ability to do so, most don't want to play the PTB just to have access to a singular killer in essentially early access mode.
The *real * xeno testing was the actual release date. Xeno released with a slowdown to 2.0ms on tail use + a bug.
Nobody was able to accurately provide balance opinions on xeno because his tail attack was bugged and provided *no slowdown at all*.
Now BHVR instead of fixing the bug and keeping the 2 ms slowdown decided to fix the bug , nerf xeno, and break the tail all in one patch.
All in all xeno was fun to play but survivor mains cried hard enough to get him gutted.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557332#Comment_3557332
To be fair here, you don't need Tombstone Piece specifically to counter MFT as Myers. Pretty much any of Myers' actually viable builds, as I mentioned lightly earlier, are going to counter MFT to one degree or another- Vanity Mirror builds counter it via stealth, hyper-chase builds counter it via longer lunges, faster vaulting, and generally powering through loops, Tombstone Piece counters it via being the most busted single addon in the game, and so on. Myers might struggle with a more generic "hair bow and stalk speed" build, but almost anything else that'll work against any decent survivors will work against MFT.
When it comes to stealth, it's not a case of assuming the killer is a 10k comp player, it's a case of assuming the killer is like, trying? That they have some basic skills to leverage the strengths of the killer they're playing. Taking off angles to fool line of sight, exercising strong map awareness accentuated by info perks, knowing how to mindgame at certain tiles, that kind of thing. Sure, this is hard on a handful of maps, but those are typically outlier scenarios where a stealth killer would struggle anyway, regardless of MFT.
You don't actually have to dedicate a build to counter one perk. For one thing, anything you'd bring to counter MFT works against other strong survivor picks (EG, if you play a killer that can effectively utilise Blood Echo, that Exhaustion debuff counters all Exhaustion perks, as well as MFT. Iron Will too, for that matter.), but for another only a handful of killers would even need to consider that because almost every killer in the game has some basekit method of catching survivors who have a little distance on them.
And you legitimately see no problem in the fact that a singular survivor perk requires an entire *build* to counter it?
By game design alone, killer perks are supposed to be 4x stronger than survivor perks, meanwhile here you are defending MFT that throws the core game design out the window.
And are you seriously trying to play off blood echo being a decent perk? By definition *atleast the first chase* is guaranteed MFT value. To get value out of blood echo you need to have people injured while you chase and hook someone else.
But guess what happens when you're chasing someone? 2 survivors can pop heals on one another and delete potential perk value.
And let's say that blood echo does proc. Whats my guarantee that the survivor it proc'd on has MFT or an exhaustion perk to begin with? Blood echo is a dead slot for the vast majority of the match.
Again, an overwhelming majority of killers do not have a way to "catchup" to an mft user to down.
Sure wraith moves fast in cloak mode, but in order to attack he has to bingbong out of cloak and in that time the survivor drops the pallet or W keys further so he still gets severely impacted by MFT.
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@Boons123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557554#Comment_3557554
You rely entirely on the survivors' mistakes? Don't try to improve your skills so as not to depend on the mistakes of survivors?
You can exploit your enemy's mistakes, but this does not mean always relying on the enemy's mistakes and then expecting the same result
Try to recognize your own mistakes in chase so that you do not repeat them, and do not blame everything but yourself
I think in the future we will see a post requesting that the Nerf screen for players be completely black
Telling people to "watch their mistakes " is all fine and dandy until you're honest enough to understand that survivors have way too many perks and items to erase a play / mindgame you've won for free.
--
Successfully sneak up on a survivor with GF/Myers? Survivor gets bailed by sprint burst.
Successfully pull off a mindgame on a tile? Survivor presses E and gets saved by DH. Or click an extra button if you have a medkit with styptic.
You've succesfully zoned a survivor into a deadzone? WOO+MFT+Resi allowed them to know the pallet was dropped so they b-lined to the loop with a pallet thanks to the 3%.
There's a plethora of other scenarios where the killer makes 0 mistakes, plays as perfectly as he can, yet the survivor gets to erase a chase with the press of a button or thanks to perks giving them permanent extrasensory perception.
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@zarr said:
Well, it's simply in the nature of how Nightlight works that it is good practice not to ascribe too much weight to its stats. It's not a random sample because it is self-reported.
And while the stats on perk usage may seem very similar here (in their limited scope), it is important to keep in mind that with the sheer number of players, even just 1% is a massive difference. With millions upon millions of matches every month, it takes hundreds of thousands of instances of a perk being used to make for that 1%. How significant that is is easily understood when you think of the fact that for the vast majority of perks, usage percentage differences will be in multiple decimal places.
Looking at it that way, you can see that even in the 10 most popular picks where disparities can be expected to be low, differences between the stats are still quite large. Different placings, disparities of up to 6% (which again is huge in terms of player numbers, but also if you consider that 20-30% is the top most percentage perks get used at, so a disparity of 6% between them indicates a 20-30% disparity between the stats (6 of 20/30 is 20-30%)), even entire perks that appear on one list and not the other (2-4 instances of as much, in a pool of 10).
Nightlight is neat and I'm glad the community takes it upon themselves to collect stats en masse, but if BHVR's global stats that actually take everything and reflect the actual "live balance" already have to be enjoyed with caution, Nightlight's stats are to be taken with even larger grains of salt.
Those "disparities" happen because nightlights nature is geared towards mid-high mmr players.
"Official" stats include everybody, even the fresh installs who only have the basegame and perks , so they are forced into using SC , for example.
Nightlight reflects the data from the actually valuable dataset, which is mid-high mmr where people have DLCs and therefore a choice + they know how to actually optimize and play the game efficiently.
I'd argue nightlight is quite honestly better than official just because official includes all the casual / low mmr bloat stats.
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@Peanits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3557454#Comment_3557454
RE: Self Care. It's worth noting that metas are not the same around the world. Different regions have totally different dominant playstyles and meta perks. Regions which rely less on teamwork and more on self sufficiency have much higher use rates for Self Care, and that drives the global average up.
To be honest, It would be amazing to have a live data API we could use to narrow down statistics by region + MMR brackets.
I feel like alot of finer details get lost in the globalization.
For example, A fresh install player will only have access general perks and 4-5 characters, which means even if he wanted to use to perk X, hes forced to use perk Y because he doesn't even have access to perk X.
This in turn boosts the usage rate statistics for perk Y and can cause a mis-interpretation of perk Y's viability/effectiveness.
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Personally, the only perk that still surprises me , and doesn't at the same time, is self care, I wouldn't expect a global 15% to still run the noob trap perk.
Its been known for quite a while that survivor meta is a MFT+Resi variant with the most popular being, WOO+MFT+RESI+Adren.
People tried using the previous stats from april 27-august 5 to claim "MFT Isn't that big of a problem" meanwhile the perk "officially" sky rocketed to second place, only behind WOO , in the span of 20 days.
All in all, the official stats are still relatively close to Nightlight stats and lets us know that even though nightlight doesn't include "100% of the data" its still a very good place to go to if you want to see what perks are most commonly used.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3556522#Comment_3556522
Preface - assuming we remove MfT's endurance (which I think should be done), should we remove or adjust the 3%? I'd be fine with a hard swap MfT and Dark Theory (DT going to 3% and MfT going to 2%.
My stance was video comparisons/loop differentials to change my opinion on the 3% portion, and this is a perfect poor example for a couple of reasons.
First, there should be Killer and Survivor visuals. During the Hope section (5:45) the Killer enters and exits chase, so the Killer is intentionally (or unknowingly without enough skill to recognize) sabotaging the integrity of the chase/video. Even if it were a tall structure where you can't look over, the Killer can still hide redstain or mindgame in other ways*. But the main issue here is the Killer (friend) shown in the video is intentionally or unknowingly sabotaging the integrity of the video, so we don't know if in the original comparison (0:45) he was running the tiles wide without Killer perspective also. He could have just asked the friend to run both as Survivor also, so that way if the video maker ran 3/5 pallet rotations without and with MfT as Survivor, then when as Killer, he ran 2/3 or 5/9 rotations, they could know someone is running tiles looser or tighter. At the same time, if it were the same, then we could see the side-by-side, even if it weren't edited in that way (open another window and play the Survivor and Killer sections simultaneously).
Secondly, there should be more than 1 tile showcased. This is 1 filler pallet on 1 map. At the very least show LT walls (which to be fair, have different lengths on different realms), Longwall Jungle Gyms, Shortwall Jungle Gyms, and Shack. I don't feel like that is too much to ask for. Similarly if someone were to come up saying "Bamboozle is OP, Delete pls" it should show which tiles are shut down as a result.
*I tried to find a video example but I couldn't for the life of me, so enjoy a mediocre paint drawing of the generic pallet tile in its place. (Which could be compared as a tall wall version of the loop showcased at the timestamps listed above.)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/RHKMLLVTT2B0/palletlooptallwallmindgameexample.png
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3556733#Comment_3556733
I will say any Stealth Killer 'countered' by MfT is simply playing Stealth Killers wrong. Doc I will 100% agree with you however.
I love MfT because it means those foolish Survivors can't escape my Mark as Ghosty with Sprint Burst (or get instagibbed due to stealth while injured). I find similar reasons every time I play most Killers. "Thank goodness they didn't bring X perk" when I find out they have MfT, but mostly its SB.
Preface - Haste and endurance effects should be rare like they used to, MFT needs to be outright deleted/Reworked.
The video is enough of a proof of concept to understand that MFT does indeed provide a significant chase extension. an extra loop just because MFT goes BRR is not okay, if he dropped the pallet, it would have been another 20-30 seconds for the killer to catchup that the MFT user does not deserve.
Everytime people bring up stealthkillers and insta down killers up, I feel like every single time yall are treating survivors as if they have no eyes and the killer player is a 10k hour comp player. or just the simple fact that some maps actively ruin any stealth, like ormond, Borgo, GOJ, Eyerie of crows, etc etc.
Not to mention people trying to claim a certain killer "counters mft" if he brings XYZ Perks and addons just to deal with MFT.
Like, is it really fair to say Myers counters MFT if Im forced to bring Tombstone and inf T3 just to not deal with MFT? Obviously not, because the basic Myers experience has no anti-loop or catch up power.
A perk that mandates the other side to equip a full loadout centered around countering it is fundamentally unhealthy.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3556733#Comment_3556733
It depends on how strict we're being here- technically speaking, Trapper hard counters MFT, but it would be kind of misleading to put him on a list. He'd be more like the baseline; somewhat affected by MFT via regular M1 chasing, but not significantly enough that he's any less viable than he typically is.
So, for killers that definitely do not have to care about MFT at all: Nurse, Bubba, Clown, Spirit, Plague (in Corrupt Purge, anyway), Ghostface, Oni, Pyramid Head (insofar as his power is not affected, though to be fair he doesn't have speed or hindered), Blight, Twins (except for the Endurance which they care a lot about), Nemesis, Pinhead, Artist, Sadako, Wesker, kiiiinda Xenomorph? These killers will all notice MFT if a skilled player is using it, but have something in their power that allows them to mitigate it almost entirely in at least most scenarios.
For killers that contextually don't care about MFT, with the right builds or in the right circumstances: Wraith (with uncloak speed addons), Billy (unless he's cucked by a terrible map), Myers (most actually viable builds don't care about MFT, but tbf, not all and his basekit does care), Trickster (just sharpens his feast or famine nature, doesn't actually change it), Huntress (dependant on what LoS blockers are around). Self explanatory; these killers have tools but may not be running them in an MFT game, or only care depending on specifics of what map they're on and what part of that map they're chasing in.
Killers at neutral: Trapper, Freddy (his snares kinda help, but they're not consistent enough), Legion. These killers basically just have to M1 chase, which means MFT is definitely doing something but isn't actively harming their power.
Killers who are actually going to notice MFT, but are still viable: Hag (harder to M1 chase but traps themselves unaffected), Doctor (messes with Shock Therapy timing), Pig (I'd argue her power is more affected by slightly harder M1 chases than the killers in neutral and it's easier to evade her ambush), Demogorgon (easier to juke his Shred, I think. Haven't tested.), Deathslinger (easier to juke for sure), Dredge, Knight. These killers aren't unplayable, but they do have to try noticeably harder or lean harder on ambushing and mindgaming.
I'm exempting Singularity from this list as I'm not entirely sure about him, and Skull Merchant because her new iteration literally has not been played by anyone yet. I'm also focusing more on the 3% Haste element of MFT primarily, because including the Endurance would slightly change this list but pretty much everyone agrees that part should go. The Haste is the contentious part, imo.
So, our list of killers that are rendered unviable is 0, and our list of killers who'll notice but can still do well sits at 7. Significantly lower than 'over 20' even if we soften your claim to the more reasonable "is mildly countered by" or "will notice".
Explain the context behind plague, ghostface , oni , bubba etc "not caring about mft"
And the context behind wraith, myers , nemesis , sadako etc not being "as affected" by mft?
Are we seriously including killers like plague where the only time she counters mft is when survivors give her the red puke for 30 seconds?
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Yeah no, furtive chase would only be "good" if they flipped its effect around.
A shorter TR while in chase is pretty much worthless.
A 32m tr killer will go down to 12m in chase at full stacks, 12 meters is enough distance for a survivor to still be aware the killer is in the tile with him.
It gets a little better when it comes to 24m TRs but the survivor will still pre-run because the effects only trigger when the chase is active.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3556635#Comment_3556635
The snag, of course, being that there is not currently a perk in the game that makes over 20 something killers completely unviable.
Alright name the killers that can mitigate MFT.
Hard counters - Artist,Nurse,blight, wesker
soft counter but still impacted - slinger, huntress, trickster , hag
Am i missing anyone?
The other 25 are forced to chase normally and get 100% screwed by MFT , like myers, pig, ghostface , doctor , freddy , etc
Now, i conservatively said 20 previously because im aware there's certain killers with "close in " abilities like wraith and billy or pseudo anti loop like xeno and trapper, but they still have to chase normally in a tile and get screwed hard shift W chases.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3556522#Comment_3556522
It also doesn't take into account Killers with a modicum of skill being able to identify and circumvent it, as well as exploit it.
Ah yes, lemme just somehow outskill a survivor in a shift W chase.
Or maybe have the hindsight to have played one of the 6 or 7 killers out of 33 that can mitigate the problem that the 3% haste is.
Any suggestions or opinions containing "get gud" or "play x killer" are on multiple levels of unhealthy and just show extreme bias.
Nobody in their right minds would see a perk that makes over 20 something killers completely unviable and still defend the perk.
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@Chaosrider said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3555636#Comment_3555636
If you cant loop, the speed boost is worthless. I would say you can get a bad nurse to a good nurse in shorter time than a bad looper into a good looper.
@Luv2NotHateDBD said:
The psychological effect this perk has people is hilarious. It's been proven that this perk isn't that OP'd. Got to youtube and you can see even proof that it's been tested.
Yall mean videos like this?
https://youtu.be/EPX5K0r3oDU?si=DYkqzKoqhlgoJ3lHyou dont even need video evidence, basic math is enough to understand the perk is busted.
20-30% chase extension for holding shift W is ridiculous.
On a 30s chase you get 6 extra seconds from MFT , bringing it up to 36.
Times that by 3 and a single Survivor is buying 18 seconds at a minimum for free just because hes holding shift W.
This is first grade math, you dont need a PHD to do understand that 18 seconds for free per Survivor is extremely busted.
(This doesn't even take into account pallets and windows you made because of MFT causing a chase reset)
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3555734#Comment_3555734
Your takes are somehow worse than Otz’s.
How about instead of commenting *that* you post something constructive.