UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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@BubbaDredge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3533421#Comment_3533421
Because they decided to hang back and slow down the killer while the unhooker got away. Killers want the unhooker, you interfered and now you're the only one I have to chase. The unhooker is supposed to take aggro, your whole team is messing up and that's got repercussions . Also you're now teasing me with an early first kill because you'll probably come back to unhook whoever unhooks you.
Lighthearted fun is fine, so long as you're lighthearted about consequences. BT slows down the killer, but not if you give them the BT hit for free. Be lighthearted and run, it's also a game about getting killed. Still just a game, but you're supposed to run. The killer can make lighthearted choices, but survivors might get killed doing so.
It's not a bad game design at all, it's not designed to make you feel safe or let you get away with too much boldness. You're in progressively more danger throughout the trial, lighthearted or not, you have to play accordingly or you'll die.
No one's punishing you, killers are supposed to kill you. I feel bad if I'm too oppressive or feel like someone's dying too fast from bad luck, but I'm just playing a game where my main objective is to stop you. I don't care that much about winning, I'm not being sarcastic about lightheartedness, I wish all the players that seem to be upset all the time could be a little more lighthearted.
It's a fun game, lighten up, if anything in any game makes you upset, just take a step back and have a good laugh at yourself.
You're interpreting the excitement of the game with your instincts rather than your brains, it feels emotional because you felt danger, your body reacted and now that adrenaline has you pumped up. Feels like justified rage, you have to remind yourself it's not.
Lighthearted is the key. This game is exciting. IRL I don't kill people AT ALL. Too stressful, I don't even try anymore. Same goes for running from killers, I avoid them completely.
But this game isn't stressful so long as you can remind yourself that you're playing for the drama and excitement. Those things are why you come back, it's why you feel good when you get out. Take the good emotions as is, and realize the bad ones had no repercussions whatsoever. You rode a rollercoaster, get in line for another.
tldr: Everyone should be lighthearted about this game, but sometimes lighthearted decisions get you killed, which doesn't matter at all.
Agree with the sentiment, but the reality is people tunnel no matter what, they go fo the unhooked player deliberately. This game is essentially glorified tag.
Imagine being on the playground, and you're playing bulldog. The person in the middle trying to stop everyone crossing just chases their crush all the time and never goes for anyone else. That person is constantly caught and unable to cross, and everyone else is bored, cause they never get chased.
When their crush gets upset, you say "it doesn't matter, it's just a game... don't take it seriously". Yeah... but then whyare we playing it? Noone is having fun, and while it's not against the rules, it goes against the spirit of the game.
In DBD, we the playerbase define that spirit, and I don't think anyone thinks "Yeah, tunnelling 1 playing out is so much fun, and what this game should be all about". You can do it, but it sucks...
However my own experience as survivor is, I want to take any fun perks, but if I do that I'm rolling the tunnel dice... if I don't have good chase perks to get-away, or as many anti tunnel perks as possible... the my fun perks build is just gonna die to tunneling.
I refuse to tunnel and camp personally, even when going for challenges and adepts, unless someone repeatedly keeps walking into my arms. Do unto others and all that.
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I feel true nirvana lies somewhere in the middle personally.
The uniqueness of Old Freddy was:
- Being a truly invisible stealth killer with a non durectional lullaby.
- He cannot be interacted with or interrupted by awake survivors. He in turn couldn't interact or stop awake survivors until dream transitioning them.
- Monstrous levels of slowdown for Survivors he managed to keep in the dream state, and ofc the ability to track them at all times.
Modern Freddy is rather generic... kinda like some weird mashup of Clown and Sadako but not as good as either respectively. He gets to attack awake survivors and have pressure off the get go as a teleporting m1 killer... his dream world hides his TR and is otherwise gives him some basic anti loop.
I feel there is some combination between the 2 that can work. I want the stealth aspect and fear of the dream world of old Freddy back... but I also want the passive slowdown of micro sleep and thecdrean pallets from modern Freddy.
I like the idea of old Freddy, but I'd tweak it to some idea like: -
- Instead of Freddy transitioning a survivor to sleep, survivors build micro sleep.
- Survivors can not see their micro sleep timer, and conspicuous actions accelerate it. They are not pulled into the dream world when full.
- When micro-sleep is full Freddy can be seen like the dream transition phase. Loud noise notifications will pull them into the dream world (missed skill checks, unhooks, vaults or fast lockers, etc).
- Freddy immediately becomes fully visible during a basic attack. Hitting a basic attack on a survivor will pull them into the dream world. If their micro sleep timer is full, they are also wounded.
- Freddy can channel for 1.5 secs to mark a nearby pallet. If that pallet is thrown by an asleep survivor or transitions that survivor into the dream world, it functions as a Dream Pallet. Only 4 pallets can be marked at any time, removing the oldest.
- Instead of permanent aura read, survivors who transition into the dream state have their aura revealed for 10 seconds, and survivors performing a conspicuous action are also revealed outside of Freddy's TR.
- Remove failed skillchecks as a means of waking up. Keep the alarm clock. Alerted survivors cannot be dream transitioned with basic attacks. This gives a race to the clock kind of mini game.
Something like that. People smarter than me can probably do a better job, but you get the idea.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3537649#Comment_3537649
I don't like this.
How to say it, this community is very entitled. You have people complaining when killer don't give them hatch... How do you think this would go?
I suppose it makes more sense on console.
We have no end game chat or really any mechanism period to say 'well played' or 'gg' whatever, unless they're on the same platform so we can send a message privately... and who does that? So being able to give a BP thanks would be nice.
Course we also avoid said toxicity and entitlement too... so that's the upside.
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@Hanuka5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3537659#Comment_3537659
Thats what i was confused about too, some survivors are saying its toxic but than they slug themself for 4 minutes. I agree with you that its not toxic (as long we are not talking about slugging 4 survivors until the end of the game instead of hooking em)
I actually completely misread you OP, my bad dude... I thought you were saying survivors crawling away to hide is toxic xD
Personally I have no real annoyance with slugging inherently. There have been occasions I've found it annoying, but I get more annoyed when my remaining team mate can see me slugged, and when they get caught they lead the killer back to me, with no intention to pick up... guaranteeing the 4k...
It's like leave me alone brother... I'm trying give 1 of us a chance of getting hatch!
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3537562#Comment_3537562
Then go for it in the next. I have played a lot of killer (as much or more than surv) and have chased many adepts and countless tome challenges, but you have to draw a line somewhere. Well don't have to, but if you're gonna leave someone on the ground potentially for minutes to go on a wild goose chase, that is a line I won't cross. It's just really poor form, imo.
4Ks aren't terribly hard to come by, really, and not every game needs to be a 4K. Not every scenario where only one surv is up is opportunity that simply can't be passed up. 4Ks aren't currency.
Everyone has their own sensibilities, but I actively resent players who play like every 4K adds a year to their life or something. In a game with no real ranking system or substantial tangible reward, it's just kind of pathetic.
I can maybe excuse it if someone is chasing a really elusive adept they've been chasing for a long time (like if they've decided to try to get it when that killer is already at high MMR, which frankly is a result of poor planning), but that's about it.
99.9% of the time, if you have two survs left and one is on the ground but you don't know where the other is, hook the one and take your chances with the hatch game. By most definitions you've already "won", and the odds are still in your favor to get that last surv.
If you've played Killer alot and got plenty of adepts... how are you arguing against slugging?
You've honestly never been screwed by hatch out of your adept 5 games in row? I don't even have many hours and I've been forced to play repeatedly at a handicap multiple times for trophies and tomes.
I don't slug either generally as rule unless there is something specific I'm going for. In fact, in normal games it's not uncommon for me to get 10 hooks, down the last survivors and then let them wiggle off and go free...
However when it comes to adepts or having to get a 4k while using unnerving presense or w/e, you bet your ass I'm slugging 😅
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Don't think you can really call it "toxic" for a survivor to try and crawl away while slugged to try and get hatch...
I'd actually commend them for trying...
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
Why not just let everyone tip anyone? Killer, teammates, survivors...
I liked some play from survivor, respect his build etc., would be nice to tip some BP like 100, so it wouldn't be enough for people spamming and asking for tips... Just a gesture.
I'd have gone much further tbh... and just have it awarded instead of coming from my pool:
- Killer can tip 2000 BP per survivor.
- Each survivor can tip 800 BP to the killer.
That potentially can make a decent dent in a lost add on, which serves a pretty good "thanks for the game!" in my book, and actually is a tangible reward for playing fair/skillfully.
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@Zokenay said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3537173#Comment_3537173
If anything the last part is likely a bug, which should get fixed.
Has been confirmed by the devs in the bug reporting section, that is not a bug, and is working as intended.
Basically the issues with UW are it is exceptionally easy to trigger, has no condition, and provides a lot of value for little effort with no counterplay outside if Calm Spirit: -
- It trivialises hex totem defence, so can make it obnoxiously hard to disable an important totem.
- It is extremely effective on fast mobile killers like Nurse, Blight, Wesker, etc, making it very easy to find and stick to players. They can proc it very easily with little effort, and these killers tend to be the ones that are pretty hard to lose already.
- Removes all possibilities of stealth from survivors, so allows easy control of objectives. A survivor has to go all the around your invisible bubble in an opposing direction to make it back to the gen you just kicked.
- Those same killers that are renowned for being exceptionally good in chase, now can completely remove the possibility of staying hidden as a means of avoiding these killers strong chase power.
Compare this to the other scream perks like Hex: Face the Darkness, or Infectious Fright. Can't be triggered on command, requires the killer to find a survivor and successfully land a hit/down, Hex has the possibility of being cleansed... UW is a far better scream perk.
How about against similar tracking perks? Whispers? Spies? Darkness Revealed? That's a no contest. The only advantage is Survivors know you've heard them scream, but because it's in your terror radius, you're able to capitalise anyway if you have a working pair eyes and a functioning brain.
UW is far more reliable and easy to capitalise on, and is basically a guaranteed method of forcing survivors to leave an area you want to control.
So it's similar to MFT really. No effort, has an effect that provides value in a lot of scenarios making is very versatile and useful over the course of the entire game, plenty of players leaping to its defence, and if it isn't OP it is still very annoying for the opposing side regardless.
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@Snowball777 said:
Yes
But that's just who Nurse is, she is a Killer who you can't nerf too much without making her useless or feel awful to play
She has a relatively high skill ceiling to Nurse stomping Survivors feels rewarding and earned
I personally think SoloQ getting more QoL changes would be better for the game than nerfing any Killer besides Blight.
Agreed... I'm gonna be very interested in the next statistics drop from BHVR after the radical changes from 7.0.0 have had time to fester a while.
I'm hoping we get to see add-on results to get a chance to figure out why Blight's add-ons are still untouched 🤔
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536180#Comment_3536180
But then you basically remove the line of sight breaking as counterplay because you can just follow and are not forced to blink to catch up with survivors... I don't think this helps in any way...
That's exactly my point, to make her accessible to low level players, you almost have to kill exactly what makes Nurse unique and interesting.
The nature of her power means you have to crimp it pretty hard to nerf high level players by basically removing the ability to blink on a survivor and then follow up for free with a second blink (or a third). If you do that however, you then have to water down her kit with basic movement speed and m1 gameplay to allow her to still be able to operate without blinks available and make her easier for low level players. As a low level scrub, I play with Spasmodic Breathe cause it means I only have to accurate 1 time, then I finish my down as an M1 killer using bloodlust if I need, and don't have to fear getting constantly juked.
I'm sure with enough thought someone could get something that would work OK, but the unique point of the Nurse is she is slower is survivors, but to compensate can blink through walls... this blink is both her general movement, and her gap close for hits... if you remove that, she has to become a normal movement killer to compensate.
If you want to keep her identity as a character that moves slow and links everywhere, you need to find some way of making that easy to play but not overpowered... and it's one of those where having both is probably not possible... that's why she has her harsh fatigue effect and narrow windows to line up her blinks, because without those, it's really easy to land her stuff.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536259#Comment_3536259
Considering that they deactivate on a lost health state, I don't think that'd work all that well.
You sure?
5% haste + No scratch marks while in range of each other seems pretty solid to get to a safe spot off hook to heal then go do a gen together.
If the killer does come for you and finds you, the surivors can split, with the healthy survivor providing a body block to buy seconds for the other to break line of sight and make significant distance looks like a pretty good deal to me. It'd be like a permanent Guardian for both players... not that I want give even less reason to use Guardian... but let's be real, that perk needs help too.
However regardless, I agree with the sentiment either way, I'd like to see these perks get some help. Your suggestion seems solid to be fair... I was just riffing on the idea that if you had the unhook or be unhooked condition, then if has a specific reason to be used, which is making it harder for the killer to tunnel.
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TBH, both of them have the potential to be pretty good anti tunnel perks if you make the condition that they trigger when you unhook a survivor...
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@UndeddJester said:
Issue is the Nurse is very unique, and people want killers to be varied and unique.
Any attempts to change Nurse would run a strong risk of removing that uniqueness. You also have to think that because she's hard to play, her kill rate is way below average, and trying to balance around high level play could easily kill her off.
If you nerf her too much, then you have another Hillbilly, where she's too hard to play well compared to other killers, and not good enough to warrant even trying.
So its kinda a damned if you, damned if you don't.
As a follow up, if you want to consider something like that would make her easier to play at low level, while limiting her at higher levels, you could do something like this.... but I guarantee any high level Nurse will have to hold back their vomit reading it: -
- 4.4m/s base movement speed.
- Each blink has 15 charges.
- 1 blink that charges normally at current speed 5c/s (or 3s).
- 2nd blink (and 3rd blink) are charged at a rate 1 c/s (or 15 secs).
- Blink charging can be accelerated by absorbing the breathe of survivors at a rate of 2c/s (or 7.5s). (Similar to Oni, have vapour trails survivors leave when they run that the Nurse can absorb).
- Each blink charged after the first slows the Nurse by 0.25m/s.
- Fatigue from blinking decreased by 50%.
- For each successive blink, fatigue is increased by 25%.
The reason to go this route is at low level the Matchbox and Spasmodic Breathe add-ons make her much easier to play, because you can fall back on M1ing to finish the job if a survivor is giving you trouble with juking. This lowers her skill floor significantly...
However at high level, this would mean you have to make your blinks really count to get value, as you have to charge them by following survivors in chase before you can do it again, massively pulling down her skill ceiling as well making her worse overall. This makes her much more like a normal m1 killer ofc, so the loss of uniqueness is also substantial, and the overly punishing nature of missed blinks means you have to ask why would I play this over Blight?
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Issue is the Nurse is very unique, and people want killers to be varied and unique.
Any attempts to change Nurse would run a strong risk of removing that uniqueness. You also have to think that because she's hard to play, her kill rate is way below average, and trying to balance around high level play could easily kill her off.
If you nerf her too much, then you have another Hillbilly, where she's too hard to play well compared to other killers, and not good enough to warrant even trying.
So its kinda a damned if you, damned if you don't.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3536078#Comment_3536078
I think those hits would generally not get affected. You should be very much in reach when getting spinned - so this should not be the situation (provided you don't have latency 1000+ms). With my understanding it's more about those hits where you vaulted window and moved 3 steps away but still got hit regardless
Oh fair enough, that makes more sense.
I assumed latency would affect spin techs as well, particularly with some of the bare millimeters I've on occasion been able to turn enough to clip people trying it on me... I was thinking if latency made that even harder, where I'd be robbed of my down for Deep Wound instead, that'd be pretty tilting...
But assuming that's not a thing, I suppose the question is, is there a value difference between getting a bullcrap miss as killer vs. getting a bullcrap hit as a survivor?
As a rudimentary comparison, every extra 10 secs a bull crap miss costs a killer is 10 more seconds of Survivors on potentially 3 gens... whereas every bull crap hit on a survivor is potentially 10 seconds lost for 1 survivor coming off for the unhook. I guess the impact this could have changes through the course of the game... early on desync misses are really bad for killer, later on desync hits are really bad for survivor... It's not that simple ofc, but you get what I'm asking.
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I would be behind getting base perks in SoS for sure, since there is no other way to unlock them across all character... I would be interested to know if anyone ever even uses SoS.
EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I come to realise SoS is more a FTP player feature... so everything after this point is me being a jackass who bought everything and then complains... Will leave it in for amusement purposes xD
I personally never buy SoS, because why would I do that ahead of levelling up the respective character through 1 prestige level to get that perk and 2 more for free? I'll have to do that anyway at some point, so there isn't really any save in time investment at all... even if it gave me the perk at level 3 straight out of the gate it'd still be not that useful unless I really REALLY hate a particular killer (which thus far, I've not found 1 I genuinely dislike).
However, 1 of my biggest irritations when levelling up a new character is, as I don't have all my other characters at rank 3 yet, I can end up not seeing common perks for quite some time in the Blood Web... whereas teachables are all there, even if it is only at tier 1.... which can be frustrating if need it.
I basically got Oni all the way to tier 1 before I even saw Sloppy Butcher 😖
Ofc this is an issue that is entirely of my own making for buying the DLCs for most of the roster on either side... if I unlocked characters the FTP way, I'd easily get everything to tier 3 and then some before I saved up for a new one... so scumbag PTW player I guess... xD
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As a console player who's whole game experience is trying to effectively deal with being spin teched constantly... this sounds truly evil xD
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Trapper's problems are fundamental to his power being incompatible with modern DBD... I totally agree not making this add-on basekit to try and shoe horn strength on him.
This add on is a gamble play style that can only be used if you go hard on a 3 gen near basement, and use it to close down all major loops and pallets within an area. If survivors get 1 of your 3 gen, or you can't get a basement hook, you're in trouble.
Basically its like a weak versuon of chess merchant... Suffice to say, no Trapper should be forced to play like this. If the play style stays, it stays, but don't force everyone to use it.
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Cheers for the effort policing lad... I thought I hade made that point clear in the title and in the description... but I guess not good enough xD
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You can hear walking survivor footsteps? Damn... that's impressive.
I like running this perk with Distortion, Iron Will and Lightweight. It makes you suprisingly difficult to find if you're good at prerunning, as the killer gets no audio cues help them guess where to look. By the time the killer finds your scratch marks, they're practically gone.
Even if you are found and wounded, there are a number of maps where a good pallet stun at the right time and/or a good corner/bush tech can make you pretty damned hard to find again... Probably not good at high MMR, but it's fun AF down here with the scrubs :D
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@EvilSerje said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3535489#Comment_3535489
Blight's cooldown is 0 five times (with Achemist Ring infinetely)
Nurse's cooldown is N seconds, but it doesn't matter.
Who is feel guilty playing them?
Also, Spirit, Artist and 10 more killers - no guilt so far.
Plus survivors can literally strip Xeno of his power.
So, what was this post about?
There's not a shortage of Killer mains saying for years that playing Nurse and ACRing Blight is busted and unfair... people regularly mentioned Spirit's unfair add-ons, which then got nerfed.
It's not uncommon for people to be empathetic when they succeed at someone else's expense due to things being heavily stacked in their favour.
It's the same logic as wondering why do people cheat when there is clearly no satisfaction in doing so? If you feel you have something overpowered that makes a game lopsided in your favour, how do you draw satisfaction from it?
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@Snowball777 said:
You can still message people even when SoloQ, on Xbox I could just message someone and say "Hey the Killer has NOED, watchout".
There should absolutely be icons showing who queued up with each other in the end game screen however, no reason to hide who is SWF when the game is already over.
Yeah, but thats my point... vs. SoloQ, if you have 1 person dead, the rest of the team is already up against it just to finish the gens, even if you know the killer's perks, let alone discover NOED. The risk/punishment is pretty minimal.
... and that's if you're petty enough to go through the rigmarole of going to each former players profiles and dropping them each a message. Most people will just go next, especially on console.
However I accept there is the potential issue. A match history would be the other way to achieve this, so I can queue up then check it out later.
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I hate the perk both in concept and in practise, but if I put aside my own bias and keep the 3% haste: -
- Overall game mechanic change where Haste effects do not stack, only the strongest effect is used at any one time.
- Give MFT a new animation when active, where the survivor remains stooped, but hand that normally clutches the Survivors chest instead make an action similar to Gabriel in the perk icon.
- Endurance effect reduced to 3/4/5s.
This : -
- Removes the broken haste stack effects.
- Allows killers to decide if they want to chase or not if their killer isn't strong in chase and/or on a horrible map to deal with MFT.
- Makes the endurance on slug saves a much small buffer when going for anti-slug picks up, that the Killer can easily wait out if you don't get to a window or pallet fast. This reduces protection hit effectiveness to a genuine question of are you gonna protect? Or are you gonna run?
I'd also consider buffing Boon: Dark Theory to 3%, because if MFT can have it so easily, why doesn't the perk that has to work harder for and can lose it easier not have it too?
Edit: just realised the anti stack effect wouldn't work, because you have interactions like PWYF, Rapid Brutality, Bloodlust, the Clown Anitidote bottle for both sides, MFT, Hope, any of the Exhaustion perks, Skull Merchant tracking haste, and the Singularity Slipstream, Wraith, etc, etc.
This change cause more problems than it solves...
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I think a big problem is the popularity of the MFT, Hope, Resi + whatever meta has made it so everyone is taking selfish perks and also generally playing very selfishly. The number of times I see 3 people screwing around the killer trying to make sick plays, or hiding on the edge of the map instead of trying to complete gens is baffling to me. Yes hiding makes no sense here, but it's almost like they hide and keep this perk list as a fallback if caught xD
I myself have started taking perks like Deja Vu, Fast Track + Stake Out, Autodidact (to combat sloppy butcher), anything that helps me complete actions faster so that I can get back to working on generators quicker or get them done faster. I even Blast Mine from time to time, because my generator tends to be the one that is quite far along in progress, so liekly to be kicked.
I don't win a lot, especially if it happens to be my backside the killer enjoys watching in chase.... but I do win a lot more, or at least get closer to powering the gates running things like this...
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3534950#Comment_3534950
I average 3 dodges per lobby as a P100.
Good luck if you load into a lobby with another P100.
Which is something I've always found odd myself...
I've played against 0 level characters who have juiced the ever loving crud out of me... and p100s who run into walls, head in a straight line without looking back, and can't mind game for toffee.
Weirdly rank 40-46 players typically give me the most trouble... but the more I play, the more I realise, character rank doesn't mean jack in identifying skill 🤨
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Passion is great, was fun to read, and think about, but you do inevitably create a meta around specific characters being the top picks for survivor with a suggestion like this.
In an ideal world, all effects would be equally as valuable as each other. Vittorio's Potential Energy and Fogwise would be comparable in value to Meg's Sprint Burst and Adrenaline. Sadly that will never be the case.
You sacrifice the freedom to play whomever you like with any build you like, for characters to be more true to their concept... but distinctly better or worse than each other, and that would be a hefty loss.
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Can confirm PS5 is still affected too in patch 7.2.1. Cheers!
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3534508#Comment_3534508
It’s a mobile BBQ and chili… except that requires you to spend time patrolling the map, and it alerts the survivors, and it only gives a single point of detection (instead of BBQ’s 5-7 seconds of aura reading)
Nurse’s calling doesn’t alert the survivors. If I’m playing Nurse, and see someone with Nurse’s calling, I might be able to blink directly to that survivor, without that survivor moving at all (which is a free attack)… but with Ultimate weapon that survivor is definitely going to move
What would you rather have?
- Information on someone over 40m from you for 5 secs only after a hook that can be blocked by lockers and Discordance?
- Or a 32m bubble around you for 30s that you can trigger whenever you want, and tells you where someone is, no matter what they are doing, that is only countered by Calm Mind.
Given how vehemently you're defending Ultimate Weapon, I'm gonna guess the latter. Your argument is assigning disproportionate value my dude. The persistent aura to find the survivors is a very strong effect, and screaming in of itself is not a signifiant weakness.
Screaming interupts actions and causes survivors to lose precious seconds that may cost a gen from being finished or a heal being completed. You can run something like Dead Man's Switch and even force the issue.
The obvious busted use of this power is on a hex build, where it makes defending your hex's a comparative breeze. Even without that, a near guaranteed method of finding survivors while holding a 3 gen, or defending against an unhook, or interrupting a gate beimg openee during EGC is insanely strong.
Also BTW, no skilled Nurse is going to care if you know she's coming of not. Same with Blight and Spirit, these characters do not rely on stealth to get you.
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@BubbaDredge said:
It's fun to make survivors yell and give you a direction to run, but that's all it gives you. This is not an aura or killer instinct, it's a notification you can hear and might be lucky enough to see if you're facing the right direction (it happens while facing a locker). If I do see it, I get no info on how far you are in that direction.
Also you're my terror radius away, that's not close. Like I said, it tells me which way to run, a little more than whispers, but less than most info perks.
The reason it's popular right now is it's fun, but it's not winning the match for anyone.
Facing a locker isn't an issue though since it's a lingering effect. You can just locker and use it as a sweeping tool as you vaguely run into the map for a hefty 30s.
It's like a mobile BBQ and chilli that you don't even need to hook a survivor or some other out of your control condition to have. I mean why would I run say Nurse's Calling over this perk? NC is a good perk... made completely obsolete by this one xD
I'm not necessarily saying the perk needs to be nerfed, but I will call bull crap on anyone saying isn't a very strong perk, cause it clearly is.
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@TerraEsram said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3534371#Comment_3534371
We don't get the same bot
Mine only vault windows slowly all the game, or try to do gen and miss all the skillcheck
Not that I'm hating on the bots... but they are bots....
Mine stand over the top of me dying on the floor and keep picking up/putting down their medkit... or they stand in front of me waiting to be healed... and I can't heal them for some reason.
They rarely unhook as they constantly ditch actions as soon as the Killer TR touches them, and that if spills over into gens and Healing actions as well.
They are decent in chase though with their wall hacks... I've seen them loop killers for a solid 30secs to a minute at times XD
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Isn't it a bit off to say "skill issue" when your supposed 'skill response' is to take a perk that completely nullifies the effect, or rely on the Killer not having 2 working eyes and functioning brain so they somehow can't find you and your scratch marks after it procced? 🤨
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Can confirm this on PS5
Tome 1 - Tier 3 - Buried Underground
Seems all tomes tracking for basement hooks are affected.
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@Grigerbest said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3533901#Comment_3533901
People literally saying that he's not fun to play against because he's overpowered, I've yet to see a post that guy complains about his ability design alone. xD
The problem is there are bugs in place atm that is making everything hard to assess. The movement speed loss not being applied correctly is a pretty major one.
After playing vs. the Xeno a while, his ability and turret counterplay largely seems fine... and when you get to play around turrets, the Xeno is loads of fun, win or lose. If you manage to bait the Xeno into a surprise turret and Xeno gets pushed out of Crawler mode, then happy days, loads of fun, and you're rewarded for smart placement, good baiting. If it doesn't then at least it took time to swing at the turret.... and you have to start desperately running and prethrowing, trying jukes to survive. It get's intense...
The ONLY problem with it's power is the ability to tunnel on Xeno is pretty up there. Tunnelling is a common complaint against Killer's in general, but Xeno gets more flack because it is REALLY good at it...
However how much of that is core design? Maybe that might be largely due to the bugs making its tail even more oppressive than it should be.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3533310#Comment_3533310
This isn't a case of inconsistency. There was never an established rule the lockers are required to block screaming. It's just coincidental that things in the past have coincidentally done this. You're making up a fake rule. This game evolves over time, and it's about time that killers can finally get more anti-locker perks.
We can make up a fake rule that Light-Footed is inconsistent because it is a survivor perk that lowers footstep noises, and we've never had a survivor perk that could affect footstep noises. So, according to our fake rule, we need to completely rework Light-Footed, because our fake rule states there can never be a survivor perk that affects footstep noises.
I have to disagree with the notion that this is a "fake rule". What you have to remember is, if the killer is forcing survivors to hide in lockers to avoid screaming, that in of itself is pressure and keeping survivors off gens, which is what you want as killer. So while it isn't an actual rule that scream perks don't affect people in lockers, it IS a regular factor considered for balance.
With that in mind, there is no good reason to have this perk reveal survivors in lockers, because the survivors are hiding to avoid the effect, at the expense of not progressing gens; you're still gaining value here. However in it's current form the perk has no downsides, you always find the survivors, which in turn means you can still prevent survivors working on gens AND you get an easy chase too... You always know exactly where any nearby survivors are, and more importantly where they aren't, so you get to have your cake and eat it.
Now if you want a perk that helps you find those stealth survivors who doesn't help the team and just hide all game, the perk wants to have some kind of appropriate downside to faciliate that.
E.g. modify the perk to only effect survivors not performing a conspicuous action.
However you can't have it be a Swiss army knife that solves all of your problems for you. Currently this perk is just a straight up upgrade to Whispers.
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As a killer, I get frustrated watching other Killers excessively camp and tunnel, if you're 3 gens down and have 1 hook then its understandable, but doing so at 5 gens is just lame... however it is part of the game... but what survivors need is an potent threat/deterrent against it.
Most discussions I've seen agree survivors need the 5 second stun from Decisive Strike back.
DS has been given a hefty list of requirements now, and as such it can ONLY be used vs. Tunnelling, and is in a very healthy spot... but the 3s isn't really enough to be considered a strong deterrent... bringing back up its strength would certainly not be a bad move for the game.
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Lore-wise John Kramer makes a surprisingly incompatible killer for DBD... as John's whole mission is to test people, to give them a chance at redemption and to appreciate their blessings... NOT kill them.
Amanda is a little more of a grey area, as she follows John's teachings, but ultimately is someone who is much easier led. I can imagine the entity successfully controlling/manipulating/influencing Amanda...
But ofc... who cares, John being in the game would be sick 😁
...but tbh I'd be happy to see almost anything from SAW. 🤘😁🤘
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Your post is well argued, and I agree with all points.
As a player who leans Killer sided, to give the survivor arguement a fair shake, I'd say after reading carefully what people are actually saying (and my own experience), most sensible survivors don't think the Xeno chase power is a problem perce'.
Most seem to agree when you're playing around turrets, the Xeno is a fun killer to engage with... without a turret the killer is potent, as it should be...
There is however 1 issue with Xeno, and that is how effective it is at tunnelling. There 2 things survivors unanimously hate regardless of killer:
- Being face camped on hook
- Being tunneled off hook
I dont do them, because I consider them crutch strategies for people who have no desire to actually get decent at playing killer.
If you're on hook, you can't set up a turret, you don't have the counterplay available to you, that's just how it is. This means if the Xeno decides to tunnel you (and why wouldn't it, because we all know that tunneling is effective) you're stuck trying to survive against crawler mode... so we have the Xeno, who has to be strong in crawler mode to encourage turret use, singling out the player who can't take the time to setup turrets... this is just sensible to how the killer functions.
Most survivors against Xeno aren't really upset by the killers power being strong, if you really listen to what is being said, what people are actually upset about is the constant tunneling. Without turrets, the only thing you can do against Xeno is use high level jukes... and your average player can't do that...
We do have to remember that DBD is a high skill ceiling game with a difficult learning curve... the bulk of DBDs player base is not going to be high skill players, it's your average Joe's who won't/can't put in the time to get really good at using spin techs and sophosticated baits to handle being tunneled...
I've made my own suggestion to try and address the tunneling without nerfing the tail, though tbh, there's nothing stopping the Xeno doing it the old fashioned way... so still wouldn't work...
@UndeddJester said:
Surprisingly, after a more objective look at Xeno as a low level player, I have determined that the tail attack is IMO fine.
It is unquestionably strong with its long hit box, Xeno movement speed, and fast wind up, but unlike Nemmy Tentacle, it can't hit terrain and still be dragged, so it requires precision to use effectively. The fact it can be turned off completely with turrets means it must stay strong.
The turret operation and strength is also fine... but where I think the issue lies, is turrets are dangerous to acquire, and setup is painfully long. This allows Xeno to tunnel hard and use its tunnels to camp a player easily, especially against soloQ, where without organised team help, the solo player cannot get a turret set up to have some counterplay. I propose using a Control Station Lockdown to help survivors get turrets out after they, or another survivor have been hooked (and also help vs. Xeno's global 3 gen).
Proposed Changes
- When the Xeno enters a Tunnel, the Control Station locks down that entry point for 45 seconds, or until 2 other tunnel entry ways have been locked by the network.
- Once the second entrance is locked, the system will try to hold 3 doors closed, but after 10 seconds loses power to first one.
- Locked entrances have a yellow alert light to indicate they ste locked.
- Trying to come out of a locked entry point takes 4s to break through. (Give us a cool Alien frustration scream and slam into it before a second attack busts through)
- To compensate... turrets now always break when the Xeno attacks, even when broken... cause why doesn’t this happen already?
Intended Effects
- Keep the Xeno's strength in chase and the threat of its power untouched.
- Leave Xeno's that are patrolling their gens and pursuing new survivors mostly unaffected.
- Reduces the ease and effectiveness of tunnel camping and tunneling.
- Give survivors actual windows of safety to grab and put turrets down if they pay attention. Also assist in setting up to cover their wounded teammates.
- Make it so the effects of turrets actually stick to Xeno. If you hop back in tunnel for your power, you have to go elsewhere or take the long breakthrough animation.
- Xeno doesn't get screwed by attacking a turret too early after leaving a tunnel, so overall we are all ACTUALLY playing around turrets on both sides.
- Maximum of 2 entrances locked at any one time keeps Xeno's permanent 3 gen doable, but not as free as it currently is.
Longman explanation
When you can actually set up and play around turrets, the Xeno is fine, and then when you get caught by the tail, it's fair because you had a reasonable shot at countering them by forcing them to take on the turret, or going around... As such the Xeno is strong for good players, and fun for good survivors...
However... low level survivors get frustrated with this killer right now because unless you're good at dodging, your only counter is turrets... and without turrets the Xeno can easily tunnel players who are not so good at dodging out of the game... and even if you can dodge, it's totally reliant on the Xeno's aim.
Xeno can hop in and out of tunnels to charge their tail with impunity, and given the quick time to charge the power vs. the long time to set up turrets, unfortunately a lot of low level Xenos will use this fact to tunnel and camp a hooked survivor hard.
As soon as they have a player on hook, they kill any nearby turrets and hop back into the tunnels. Whether camping in the tunnels or not, most low MMR Xeno's once that player is pulled off hook, go straight through the tunnels to the noise notification and gun for the survivor who just came off hook.
Wounded, with no turrets nearby, and against the Xeno with its very strong tail attack, the survivor now basically has to try to loop a 4.6m/s killer, with a 4.8m ranged attack, without using pallets or windows... Needless to say it goes badly most of the time, and this I feel is why Xeno is getting the knee jerk backlash... I know I got mad AF at it....
By locking entrances that the Xeno enters (NOT ON EXIT), you allow any rescuing survivors to be reasonably safe setting up a new turret before going for the unhook, which in turn naturally reduces the immediate tunnel power of the Xeno.
The Xeno can still tunnel by going elsewhere by foot and then coming back through ofc, but by locking entrances, the hooked survivor will see where the Xeno goes, and can head that way themselves to be reasonably sure that the tunnel there is locked. Astute survivors are also encouraged to take the chance to grab a turret from the locked tunnel while they are safer, passively increasing the potential turrets avaiable for solo survivors. Knowing an entrance is locked and safer to grab a turret would be a great assist to low level and solo Q players
...and I don't think high level players and SWFs really gain much more than comms already gives them...
Do tell me if I'm wrong!
However rather than deny the problem, I think it would behoove killers to try to think of ways to reduce this tunneling problem.
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@KingDeathly said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532017#Comment_3532017
I don't have this problem when I go against him. I use pallets,and windows just fine. To me he is really fun to go against. We all don't share the same sentiment as you. Don't say he's not fun when a lot of us actually enjoy this DLC.
Glad you're having fun. I do hope you're the majority. Sadly I kinda doubt it.
The point is, the average player finds this killer really hard to deal with. You're the first person I've seen list him below A tier, regardless of whether praising or condemning. I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's a very controversial take.
The question of this thread is "Why people complain about Xeno?". I'm giving you my answer. People are complaining, because your average player cannot touch a pallet or window without getting stabbed, and they rely on turrets to keep the Xeno's power at bay... but if you're tunneled, you can't use a turret...
Skill in this scenario certainly will solve this issue, but if the only responses are high skill jukes, your average players aren't gonna have fun.
That's why people are complaining. Use that information how you will.
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Tbh the reason people are hating on Xeno is simply just because it's kit is so good at tunneling and most of them are doing it. It's worst than other killers cause it doesn't feel like it takes any effort at all.
A tunnelling Xeno just holds forward, and they run you down over and over, knowing you can't touch turrets, pallets or windows. If you try to mind game, they just don't swing and m1 instead, and so many players use this strategy its extremely frustrating as a survivor.
If played normally, Xeno is fine, and lots of fun... but for every game you get with a decent Xeno who plays fair and makes a game of it, it gets followed up with 3 more where Xeno tunnels like they're trying to hit China.
It's extremely unfun, and you can't even shrug it off and go next... cause next is the same as well.
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@Raconteurminator said:
I think it's 99% of the way there. Not a fan of it being a sphere, because like you said, it can punish Killers that aren't camping. Sort the sphere issue and you're left with a really solid idea.
Updated the spherical distance calculation to a separate height check, as folliws:
If the killer is 1.8m (or 1 Nemesis) above or below (in the y axis) a hooked survivor, EBT charges are modified by -2c/s, with a minimum of 0.5c/s. This is to account for indoor maps with multiple floors, but also addressing camping around upstairs hooks in maps like Garden Of Joy and Eyrie of Crows, and camping the entrance downstairs hooks in basement.
Cheers for the feedback!
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Well... yes that would be a problem... but I couldn't help but think this 🤣
Offset offers authentic imagery by award-winning artists. All royalty-free. -
@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3531576#Comment_3531576
I like it when people say exactly what I'm thinking so I don't have to spend the time writing it down. It rarely happens, but it's very convenient when it does.
The worst part of 3 is that it retroactively makes 2 worse. 4 was a mixed bag but Ron Pearlman mostly made it work.
Hahahaha I felt the exact same murmur in my cold dead heart when I read:
I treat Aliens how I treat Terminator.
🤘😂🤘
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There were only 2, not sure what you're talking about...
Nah seriously 1 and 2 were excellent, can't really pick between them cause they both hit their strengths perfectly. 1 is the horror/thriller masterpiece, and 2 nails the action/thriller masterpiece.
3 makes the fatal mistake of killing off Newt and and Hicks offscreen. These 2 characters provided us with such a good story ark and emotional payoff for Ripley, going from the untrusting, resentful, fearful survivor who is emotionally cut off from the world after finding out her daughter died... to the heroic, determined, badass mother figure who fought off the damned Queen... Regardless of recent attempts to rewrite history, this was a horrific mistake and puts a teally bitter pill in the audiences mouth before the movie even starts... and as time goes on the film keeps getting more and more hopeless... its so hopeless it's hard to be invested in her escape because she can't escape... and ofc ultimately she doesn't.... so the film falls flat as just a "well... that sucked..."
4 is a good popcorn film. If you switch your brain off and just go with it you can enjoy it. Characters are colourful and interesting, if not particularly deep, and you get some really badass entertaining moments... like water scene for example is really cool... Xeno-sharks 😅
Everything else does more harm than good... but to conclude... I enjoy Alien more as a horror fan, even the outdated low budget moments like air vent jazz hands... but I'm more entertained and invested in the characters in Aliens.
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Now that I've cooled off from a night of constantly being tunnelled (seriously out of sheer bad luck, 7 of my 12 games was first found and tunnelled out...), I did have games where I actually got to play vs. Xeno, and when you actually get a chance to set up turrets and alike, it can be quite fun...
The only issue is if the Xeno wants you, then the Xeno is a god tier tunneller (no thats not a pun... but it might as well be xD)
As a SoloQ player, if you get marked for death by the Xeno player, you're dead. There's nothing you can do... you can only pray that someone has set up a turret elsewhere, and if you do that, chances are you're taking the Xeno to a teammate on gens.... so screwed basically.
There is this constant issue vs. Xeno where is you let turret count drop at all, then you're in big trouble... I haven't found a balance yet between how long I work on gens, vs. How long I spend setting up turrets.
I've started running OTR, Dead Hard and Decisive Strike cause its genuinely the only way I can ensure I'm in the game for more than 3 minutes xD
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@Raconteurminator said:
I think it's 99% of the way there. Not a fan of it being a sphere, because like you said, it can punish Killers that aren't camping. Sort the sphere issue and you're left with a really solid idea.
Well the alternatives sadly are not much better.
- You could do it based on position as a 2d plane based on the killers xz position, but the problem we're trying to address gets even worse because multi level floors would mean maximum range in effect when on different floors...
- You could have collisions along the sphere line in effect, but ofc, that still allows someone to camp if they simply position in a way they get the line go through terrain.
- You could have a y axis check as an early out, then do a planar xz check afterwards... that might work
I was imagining piggy backing off of the distance calculation in effect for Kindred... but I guess BHVR would likely have a better ridea how to do it than I have anyway xD
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@Yodakhiin said:
You people said the same before after sadako rework.. it's pretty easy to counterplay.
I have to disagree.
I am a newb and I picked up how to play vs. new Sadako fine.
I've not felt this oppressed since I went up against a strong Nurse... and at least in that case I could say well at least Nurse is hard to learn. Yes it is a skill issue, I'm not good, but I've never had such continuous trouble like this in this game.
I'm very reluctant to call things OP, as I don't consider myself skilled enough to make that call, and I absolutely love Alien, and I lean more killer side, so I want this killer to be strong and good... but this Killer is unbelievably oppressive. I have never been tunnelled so hard and had so little options available to me as I have vs. this killer.
You can't do anything against them if they tunnel you, and they tunnel all the time, because its totally free for them to do so. I even had a game vs. An RPD Knight just now, and it was so damned relieved... I've not seen anything in this game as frustrating and annoying as this killer is... and I've seen 4k's at 4 gens in about 95% of my games.
You can't set up turrets because you have to go to the tunnels to do it... the most dangerous spot you can be.
If you go to the tunnels, the Xeno can see your footsteps even if you walk or crouch, so you have to pray they aren't coming for you, because if they are, they know you're there, and you're against their tail with no counter play.
If you do get the turret, you can't set it up next to the tunnel cause it gets disabled when the Xeno comes out. You have to walk incredibly slowly away to find somewhere that MIGHT be useful.
The turret doesn't give them the footsteps anymore... but it beeps when the Xeno is nearby, and if taht isnt enough, they have killer instinct... so they still know you're there, and ofc you still have to take time to set the turret up... if you are even in a location you are allowed to set it up.... Again, if the Xeno comes for you, you're now against their tail with no counter play.
You're gonna get hit now unless the Xeno is a total putz. It's really easy, and if you say otherwise, you're lying. This ability is a teally easy Nemesis Tentacle, even on console I can pull this off no problem.
From this point on, you cannot use windows, you cannot use pallets. The moment you touch one, you're getting tail stabbed, because Xeno will have the tail permanently charged and ready with no penalty ready for the moment they are in range. Even if you pre-throw and have a cars worth of distance between you and Xeno, you're still getting hit.
You cannot greed pallets like Nemmy, because Xeno doesn't slow down when it pulls up its tail, so you gain literally nothing by trying to bait it, they just run through and slash you down anyway.
Look I'm a killer at heart, and even I have to say this Killer is BS. Maybe high level survivors are challenged by it and are having a great time, since the game is normally survivor sided at High MMR.
But at low MMR this is the most boring, annoying, tedious experience I've ever had in this game. Today was the first time I legit raged at this game, and it took 4 games in a row where I didn't even get to touch a gen in order to do it. I repeat DIDN'T EVEN TOUCH A GEN.
Do not nerf this character into the floor, I want Xeno to be good, but this current version is blatantly disgusting... to the point I couldn't help but write this tirade.
The tilt was unbelievable.
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@Venusa said:
Tbh I think the issue is caused by "Survival" since you don't get much bloodpoints in that category unless you escape which isn't guaranteed everytime. So this category is always emptier by default compared to objectives, altruism and boldness which you get throughout the match. The wiggle and hook struggle points were great additions to Survival points but there should be something new. Some more survival points depending on how long you have survived could be a good addition. This could be measured by different factors like time spent on match, amount of gens/mates left when you got sacrificed etc.
A nice hefty passive BP bonus for the longer you stay in game would be a pretty nice anti unalive on hook incentive.
Can't say I would ever be against more bloodpoints in general, especially after Prove Thyself got it's BP bonus removed. Like I agree with the change, but more BP to make up for it would be pleasant :)
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@Katzengott said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3528849#Comment_3528849
May i ask from were you got these numbers? Sounds right, just curios if they're offical.
I used to main huntress and i wonder if you want to do the M2 into M1 combo on Xeno aswell. And how many stacks of SbfL (without the perk obv) this technically would give.
Sure thing, they came from the official DBD wiki:
https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/The_Xenomorph?so=search
On it's home screen it is "official recognised and supported by the Developers at Behaviour Interactive.", so I assume there is some level of organised release of this information to the wiki maintainers.
https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Dead_by_Daylight_Wiki
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@RubberBrain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3528678#Comment_3528678
That is fair, however I also see that more of a map issue with too many maps forcing trapper to use his power to close off areas due to the lack of grass and areas to hide his traps, but it’s a similar thing to something like Nurse in midwich it’s a shame it’s like that but it would change too much for too many other characters, I suppose I could see better trap spawns but even then I wouldn’t see him being too too much better.
Agreed, and I am completely with you that I want Trapper buffed. He's a really cool character, and him being as weak as he is, just ain't right... even if BHVR want him to be the "simple starter" Killer character, he should remain somewhat viable at the high tiers.
Sadly the reality is, with how the game has changed over the years, Trapper's power is never gonna be top tier because fundamentally it requires players to step on the trap to do anything... and the game just isn't built this way, pushing survivors off gens and downing them fast in chase is what rules the roost here.
The only way to bring Trapper's power in line with everything else is to overload his kit to an absurd degree, which then always comes with the caveat that we have to consider Basement Trapper... and Basement, is where Trapper becomes really nasty, and kinda busted. If you have an ally trapped in basement, and Trapper has it locked down... you are very unlikely to get that guy out.
@thisislastyearsmodels post would make Trapper viable in normal play... but it would also make him pretty damned oppressive at basement camping and at low MMR, as the wounds and downs from Bloody Coil and Honing Stone at base is a big deal, and should require add-on commitment to attain.
So... if we accept that he's never gonna be top tier, what I'd like him to have is general quality of life improvements that at least keep him more fun to play and somewhat consistent. My changes personally would be: -
- Green Trapper Bag basekit. (1 extra trap off spawn and 1 additional carry capacity).
- Lengthened Jaws basekit (Deep Wound when escaping from traps).
- Allow Trapper to open a locker and grab a trap out of a locker on a 60 second cooldown. The furthest unset trap from him demanifests.
So the extra trap and trap space gives you some wiggle room for what add-ons you want to take, because I think pretty much everyone takes one of the add-ons that makes collecting and/or disarming of traps not a factor (the Iri's, the Trapper Bag/Trapper Sack). I keep toying with the idea of starting with 2 traps and having capacity for 3, so we can still have the Trapper bag as a viable add-on. Coupled with the locker addition, this would probably be fine?
The Deep Wound means you have an additional slow down on people caught on traps when you are too far away to capitalise. It also takes longer to heal so if you do want to pursue, you have more time of blood trails and whimpering to catch them.
The trap out of locker is a relatively easy to implement change that should work on any map (as opposed to managing all map spawns for current and future maps).
At High MMR we can expect Bloody Coil is then something you take often, lock down key paths, and punish anyone who tries to prevent it. With your accelerated early game set up time and improved trap acquisition through the whole game, you actually have the capacity to get traps down fast and actually start patrolling gens. This all ofc is still a problem for basement Trapper... but that will always be a thing no matter what we do.
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All attempts to pet have resulted in death so far... I'll inform you if I get to keep my colon.