UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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I watched this video, and I'm not sure I agree in all cases. There are quite a few perks that only work because the other side doesn't know about it until it is revealed. Head On for example is really hard to use if the Killer knows. Lightborn does nothing once survivors know.
The problem comes when it's so powerful an effect with virtually no downsides that everyone runs it, to the point you have to assume the other side has it and it significantly affects your gameplay even when they don't actually have it... Dead Hard being the textbook example.
The other example of a problem perk is when you can't tell its in effect. Otz and Hens have both said that the 3% haste of MFT itself is not a problem inherently... though I would argue their showcase of Hens doubling his chase time on average vs.Otz's Pig consistently, puts a dent in that argument...
However because you don't know for sure its in effect, you can't even decide to not chase if you encounter it. You learn it's in effect after you've committed a while and already paid the cost... though I don't think knowing about it is enough when everyone is likely to run it cause its so powerful....
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@leobenthebard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/2687700#Comment_2687700
There's also a matter of misclick. If I unhook a survivor and want to heal them it can sometimes choose sabo over healing. So now a tap of saboing and I'm now on cooldown.
I was about to say the same thing. This is the one annoyance about it, if I unhook and go to heal, occasionally it snaps onto the hook, not the survivor, which I ofc let go, and then lose my sabo.
Maybe if it was changed to only go on cooldown when you get to 30%~50% or something.
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@Gandor said:
Greats are indeed pointless (maybe not if you have boil over AND are in Lery's AND killer decides to go for far away hook - which no killer with at least minimum experience would do). But instead of removal, devs could make them matter again - that -1s off wiggle time for all greats was actually useful thing that made just enough difference, that other teammate successfully helping was possible.
I still don't understand why they changed it to make them not matter at all - especially considering that a lot of maps have such a huge hook density, that even perfect sabotage with taking hit for your fellow survivor does not mean a thing.
Well we can't have great skill checks be harder and grant better progression, because most would agree that without team intervention or killer mistakes... you shouldn't be wiggling off. The killer has already caught you twice, the hook is largely a formality unless something crazy happens from your team (since the point of the game is always that it's a team of 4 vs. 1 killer)...
@jordanjustice said:
It's pointless. Why would a survivor want to hit the skill checks on struggle? It does nothing. It serves no purpose. As stated, like 98% of the time, you will not get struggle off from the killers grasp... even if they are going for a far-away hook. The only chance of not getting hooked is if your teammates take hits, which isn't very often and multiple are needed.
Other people would ask for the hooks to be further, or for the struggle to be sped up.
I am just pointing out that the struggle is virtually pointless and is a waste of the survivor's time. If you call wasting your time by hitting skill checks that don't do anything, "engaging", then we have different definitions of the word.
I don't think it's accurate to say it doesn't serve a purpose... the point is to ensure you are involved in the wiggling. Your suggestion is to make it so you are not part of the process at all for your team saving you.
Hitting your great skill checks means you get the quickest progression of your wiggle bar possible... it's a pretty standard result at this point, you will almost always be hooked unless your team adds in other factors like saboing hooks, blocked hits, using flashlights to force look down and slowing their progress to the hook, distracting and making the killer swing at them and screw around too much, these all buy time for your wiggle to succeed.
In these scenarios your perfect checks increase the chance of these mounting efforts resulting in successfully wiggling off... and if you lose rhythm to miss a few checks, or you only get a good, you may not have bought that extra little bit of progress to actually make it, which may well be a game deciding moment if you're on death hook. When you are a pixel away from freedom, and the Killer just makes it to hook, I've had plenty of times where I've cursed that single good check that cost me my escape.
At most I'd agree that the greats are so regular in this mini game, they don't FEEL very impactful, but I feel the "problem" of skill checks here is highly subjective.
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Lots of good effort gone in overall, a few things I liked, a few I didn't. The only thing that really doesn't sit right with me is the teleport.
In the Halloween films there is nothing to indicate he is teleporting. Michael is depicted to be wholely consumed by evil, engaging in no human activity whatsoever, and spending literally every moment of his existence silently feeding a burning obsession for murder. The moments where he seemingly pops out of nowhere, we're left to assume is the product of an unnatural, cold and focused ability to read and predict his target, and an expert level of stealth with perfect usage of darkness, obscurred vision and silent movement.
I can see what Dustaroo was trying to do, but teleport does not fit here at all, and IMO would be more of a cop out method of achieving this effect on Myers.
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@GensByDaylight said:
If you run Buckle up with FTP it becomes absurdly overpowered. Try it.
It gives endurance to BOTH survivors for 10 seconds...
I watched my Feng Min teammate do that to a non cheese Myers the other day, and made me feel pretty sick. I genuinely had second thoughts about whether or not I should unhook her when she finally got caught... Made me feel dirty by proximity xD
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I play both sides depending on rewards, which means in the UK my working week is Killer, Saturday is Survivor, Sunday weirdly flip flops.
I actually love coop more as a rule for games, so Survivor naturally feeds that interest, and I still find the game spoopy and atmospheric. Holding repair on a gen while Oni is roaring in the background and you sit scanning constantly hoping he doesn't round the corner while also not trying to miss skillchecks. I still feel this tense feeling that I love...
However as a Slasher film fan, I also love play to play as the killers, and feel a great sense of joy trying to create that experience for Survivors. I try not to camp/tunnel/or use cheap tactics, and will tend to chase the survivor with the least hooks unless someone literally gifts themselves on a plate to me. There is giving someone a chance, and then there is facilitating incompetence, and we don't wanna be patronising :)
I tend to play serious at the start, then go friendly after 10 hooks or so depending on my mood, and then get this amusing game of charades trying to convince people I'm no longer in murder mode :D
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@FreddyVoorhees said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3518922#Comment_3518922
Prevents 1 out of 5 tools. By wasting a killer perk slot. Killers give up more than survivors in this scenario.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3518933#Comment_3518933
Neither survivors nor killers are prevented from learning flashlights/counter because lightborn is mostly used when lobbies bring 3-4 of them. Not to mention that it is rarely used in higher ranks. Bringing a single or two flashlights will not get a killer to put lightborn on most of the times. It disables the mechanic at a high cost too. One perk slot less. It's not without a cost for the killer.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3518935#Comment_3518935
It's never a gen simulator. As I said before there are many ways beside flashlights to counter killers. Sabotage, body-blocking , pallet drop save etc. It does not prevent a save from a survivor.
Even if killer is using a lightborn there are ways to prevent the hook.
Neither survivors nor killers are prevented from learning flashlights/counter because lightborn is mostly used when lobbies bring 3-4 of them. Not to mention that it is rarely used in higher ranks. Bringing a single or two flashlights will not get a killer to put lightborn on most of the times. It disables the mechanic at a high cost too. One perk slot less. It's not without a cost for the killer.
Well, as I say, I'm on the fence, I'm not really arguing the point, but.... it does happen not that infrequently. A not insignificant number of low level killers use Lightborn cause Killer is intimidating for a newbie, and I've seen my fair share of Killers take it against even just my own flashlight cause I don't hide it in lobby (I still suck at using them). At low levels you can bet 2 flashlights means Lightborn, to the point I don't bother taking my flashlight if I see another player using one.
A newbie survivor doesn't have many flashlights in their limited inventory, they are not especially common in the blood web... and cause it is hard, and it requires you to be nearby to the killer, a lot are reluctant to even try. I guarantee everyone will early blind when they first try, if they even blind at all illuminating the killers nipples. Not only that because they're new, guess which killers they tend to go against? The new killers... who are more likely to use Lightborn....
So we have an item, that if a survivors lose the game they lose their already limited flashlights, that they got almost no value out of cause they are really not easy to pull off... and even if they persevere and actually would have got a blind... Lightborn prevents it.
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Just want to say as someone on the fence. There are 2 valid arguments for Lightborn: -
- It is a hard counter that completely removes the flashlight item from the game, which is effectively a survivors equivalent of a killer power. Imagine a perk that just flat prevents a survivor from using medkits or toolboxes at all in the trial. This kind of thing is never healthy game design.
- Lightborn is not overpowered, as the times where it actually helps you can almost always be achieved by sensible killer play, either by slugging to push away survivors from good angles, and/or facing away from them/into walls. It is a underpowered perk that simplifies the killer game to help low level killers get their feet under them as they learn the game.
Both statements are not inaccurate, and are valid arguments on both sides. I don't disagree with a single point raised in this thread... however any statements of my own regarding nerfing Lightborn comes from the fact you can also argue that survivors learning to use a torch is very hard for a new player... and this perk flat out prevents the survivor from learning a genuine gameplay mechanic.
Flashlight bullying is never pleasant, Sabo squads, Head On squads, even a Flip Flop/Power Struggle/Breakout/Unbreakable duo messing around with flashlights to stall for pallet hits.... every killer has experienced things like this at some point, and it is a trial by fire. Playing against it is rough, and a harsh lesson, but one we all needed to learn and experience at some point.
I myself the state of Lightborn as... yeah it kinda sucks, but it is what it is... Unless you make it a perk that allows a flashlight stun save, but then empowers the killer somehow (say I dunno... still stunned while carrying survivors, but no blind, 70% faster stun recovery, and the aura of the flashlight survivor revealed for 10 seconds and you gain 3% haste for 3 seconds), it's current form is the best it can be.
I resigned myself to the fact it's a rather inelegant perk. A hard counter that unfortunately even as a hard counter doesn't provide enough value to warrant changing it.
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@Ghostofsnow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3518741#Comment_3518741
my problem with it as an escape perk is the set up time required, it fails as somthing to use mid chase outside of using multiple other perks to make it useable for it's 'purpose' other exhaustion's don't.
I hear you, I mean the main important one is Q&Q, the others are ones that just make it better.
It's a bit like Balanced Landing. There are a lot of instances where it will be crap and not give you anything, but there are other scenarios where it can be great to use. Is it as versatile as SB? Probably not... But it does allow you take consider taking another Exhaustion perk with it. Like Dead Hard.
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I find a great core on Pig is Enduring, Brutal Strength and Combat Straps. This really helps you out in your weakest area (chase) because: -
- It means you can be greedy on pallets instead of having to respect them.
- If you get hit by a weak pallet, you're quickly back in chase without breaking it.
- If hit by a strong pallet you can break it fast and get straight on them again.
- If you get control of pallet you can mind game with ambush.
- At windows you can beeak through necessary walls faster too and stick on people.
You can take gen slowdown and/info perks of your preference. I like Surveillance and Nowhere To Hide along with the crouch speed journel atm for the synergy with Brutal Strength. Because your TR is not giving you away as you approach gens, you might get a grab... but people who spot you aren't so fast off the mark trying to stealth away or hide vs. Your fast sbeaking, so NTH helps root them out.
Probably not that amazing at high levels, but for a starter Pig it's pretty nice.
Scorpionz guides on Pig are a little old now, but they are still very much relevant and worth a watch.
https://youtu.be/-ZLb3wbc-EQ -
This is not happening.
Sorry... I decided I was gonna post this before I even read the suggestion. Please proceed.
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It's a cool idea, I like the principle behind it a lot... but it unfortunately comes with some very severe practical problems.
One of DBDs core strengths is that you can play any character with any perks you wish (if you unlock them), completely tailoring them to your style. The complete build freedom is a great strength of the game....
A change like this makes it so that in order to get the most out of your character you SHOULD feed into your unique perk... and most characters have 1 really good unique perk. Since you will most likely take that unique perk, naturally you take perks that synergise with it, and that stagnates a lot of build freedom for Killers, as there will be one clear "best" build as a result. Then there is someone like Wraith... RIP.
In the case of Survivor we now also introduce a new problem, where no longer can you use your favourite Survivor with whatever build you want... you now have a meta around the survivors themselves. For example: Meg gets Sprint Burst AND Adrenaline. She can take numerous strong perks from other characters and do almost any build while being able to slap these really strong versatile perks with them. Every other survivor has to expressly include them if they want them. Someone like say Vittorio, doesn't really have good perks, his best perks are pretty niche or build dependent... so Vittorio players can take their build, but they are effectively 1 good perk down, and have to accept that they are playing inferior to Meg players and there isn't much they can do about it.
You also get the problem that for killers, that is 1 extra perk, for survivors that is 4. So it's a very cool idea, maybe the issues I'm highlighting won't be that big a deal... but I tend to think that the game would need a massive overhaul to accommodate this change.
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To my mind Head On is meant to be an alternative method of running away from the Killer like other Exhaustion Perks, the fact it stuns the killer to achieves this grants it saving potential as well as a side effect. Having the capacity to make teammate saving plays is a side bonus, not the core principle of the perk.
In SoloQ it is more likely to be a perk you use for yourself with something like:
- Head On
- Quick and Quiet
- Parental Guidance
- Flashbang
You will completely ditch the killer if played correctly in chase. If of course you are paying enough attention to see an ally looping a killer on a tile with good lockers, you can also attempt to go for it there as well to get them out of dodge, but it'll take really good timing and a fair bit of luck.
So I'm with @DaddyMyers_Mori, giving an aura is a VERY strong buff to the perk and completely shifts the perk from being an alternative escape perk, towards lining people up with traps for the killer. Yes SWF can do it, but it is still difficult to communicate exactly which locker you're in, and those communication issues can cause mistakes and misplays.... but you give it an aura and its something you can almost never misplay.
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The worst part of MFT is the mind games it plays on you. You don't know its in effect or not, and can't really plan around or react to it.
Not only does it mess with whatever internal timings you've built and are building, it makes learning new timings almost impossible cause you dont know for sure and everything seems inconsistent.
At least with CP33, you are aware that its happening.... not that I'm defending it, that add-on is dumb on paper. Just reading you can see it's busted.
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Considering it's only 5 hooks to start executing people outright... I'd say no, this would be massively unfair vs. Survivors, and antithetical to the purpose of Devour Hope.
If you're running Devour Hope, you're committing to a play style where you as Killer are defending your totem. The fact your totem has this game changing power means you're forcing slowdown on survivors to keep them off gens in order to find your totem.
A totem has no progress store, it must be done in 1 go, and if you push survivors off it they have to come back and try to do it again. It's value is not actually the debuffs and associated execution, it's value is the time it buys you from survivors trying to find it and do it, instead of hiding doing gens.
You have perks to pick from that can extend that time and/or help keep that pressure up. Hex: Undying, Hex: Thrill of the Hunt, Hex: Face the Darkness all makes removing your Devour Hope harder and easier to defend. Hex: Haunted Ground helps to grant you pressure when survivors try to cleanse your totems.
Regardless of what you're doing, your primary goal with Devour Hope is not to get to mori tier. It's to ensure slowdown and reduce survivors hiding from you by forcing the totem quest upon them.
Now, are Hexes and totems in general too weak? Do Hexes need to be harder find/cleanse? Do we need buffs to totems to make them relevant without hexes, like some kind of passive benefit? Do we introduce a new mnni game to totems where survivors need to perform a ritual first to reveal if its a Hexed totem before they can cleanse it? Should the Killer carry their Hexes and choose a totem to apply it to when they actually want to start using it?
Hex builds tend to be quite oppressive on new/less skilled players... but on experienced and skilled players where they can distract Killers for 45 seconds for a single down, tend to find them pretty quick and destory them before they can do anything... so it's hard to say.
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@bm33 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3517395#Comment_3517395
The streams were from the tech test that was more so to test the servers before launch, it had very limited amount of options. Only 4 of the 5 victims, 3 of the 5 family members, and 2 of the 3 maps that will be available at release were available during the tech test.
While general layout of maps was the same there were minor things that change on the map like the fuse and fuse box location, valve handle and valve location, generator location for main exit, grandpa's location, and victim item locations. There's plenty of room for additional changes to be made to the maps once the game is out and people start playing it - maybe crawl spaces/vaults become more random to add variety.
Skill trees were not available during the tech test which offer additional perks and attribute points to each character to adjust how their power works, there's apparently even one for grandpa. The devs just showed an example of skill tree on live stream like a week ago to give a brief explanation before release.
I've seen plenty of people say they are looking forward to playing the other family members. Even during tech test I saw streamers who were excited for Leatherface start leaning toward the other two family members because they fit more into their playstyle. While I'm sure Leatherface will be popular he isn't going to fit everyone's playstyle.
As for additional content, they have the license from Kim Henkel, they creator of the movie. He's already given the OK for multiple characters not from the movie to be used (all 5 victims and 2 additional killers were not in the movie). As long as they can continue to think of new powers they'll be able to add additional characters.
Good stuff. Good luck to them. Always keen to support new development teams. Sounds pretty cool.
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I suppose the question is what do we mean by difficult?
- Difficult to win with?
- Difficult to understand?
- Difficult to use mechanically?
After looking at what BHVR feedback tends to be and the ratings as they are, it's mostly "difficult to understand" that seems to be defining factors.
1) Sadako is hard because you have to understand how her tape power works and be able to identify what Survivors are doing in order to maintain your pressure for the threat of condemn and keep control of the game.
2) Billy is mechanically challenging, but his power is relatively simple. Moderate because its a combination of mobility tool and instant downing tool knowing when you should use it or not in loops. Mechanically hard to play, but reasonably straight forward to understand.
3) Artist I disagree with a little, but I guess again her power is reasonably simple to understand. Put down your crows, and throw them where you think survivors are. You need to know when to throw them down to control loops for nearby hits, but again it's a reasonably straight forward power.
I can keep going but you get the point.
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@Xernoton said:
This part could definitely use some work. Although thankfully BHVR are not going to attempt to solve this with base kit Unbreakable (god, that PTB sucked).
The thing is that the killer is incentivised to slug for the 4k. You get more BP, are more likely going to pip and there is also the fact that 3 < 4. If they did something about the first 2, then that could already help.
There are also a number of challenges and achievements that promote as such as well.
In fairness, though 3k is considered a win, the Killer SHOULD be trying for the 4k. Its kinda the point of the game tbf...
EDIT: Was rushing to work and never finished this post before I posted it xD
I guess it's us players that don't feel so hot baout having to be nasty and go for try hard 4ks. I know I don't feel too great about doing Adepts. I prefer to go them right out of the gate on each killer ASAP, get it over with, then just play chill from that point on :P
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Wesker is a little more complex than you think, his bigger TR means people will be prewarned and prerun/hide earlier from you, so you're being tested much more on your chase and search abilities than other killers.
I'm pretty new, and I started with playing the Pig cause I love SAW.
If you're getting gen rushed, you might find success with her. She is basic as basic can be for m1 killer's so great for learning fundamentals, and stealth is pretty effective at low MMR, but what she does have is natural slowdown in her kit.
Her headtraps naturally make the game take longer, so it gives you more time to get into and practise chases, and when you do start playing other Killers, the power shift will be noticeable. (Though Piggy is still top of my list).
Just remember the golden rule, of never chase someone with an active head trap (unless they literally give you a free hit).
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Watched a few streamers playing it. I've not done a deep dive so I may be badly misinformed, but after watching a while I have a number of concerning impressions: -
- Heavily telegraphed maps. The layout of the map is very stylised and impressive, but that also means not a lot of wiggle room for map/gameplay variance. Once you learn it, it's learned.
- No variance I could see about each characters powers. The characters seems to operate their one way, and one way only.
- Bubba is the star, Hitchhiker and Cook will never be as popular to play.
- Little room for expansion, what could they add in terms of new content that still fits within the design and lore they currently have?
I think it'll do OK as a game on release, but once the hype is gone, people will lose interest.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3516965#Comment_3516965
whole point of mori is to skip hook-states. mori's at death hook are have low impact. just weakening his add-on makes myer's become more irrelevant to play. he is old character and his mori-gameplay works. some player will like trying to escape his canonical version of the mori while others will dislike the gameplay. he does have counter-play in regards to using LOS at high-wall loops and locker counter-play. there is not much wrong with it other then it is somewhat cheap mori to play against. so from my personal subjective point of view, I don't like playing vs it because of the process of how he gets the mori. it feels too robotic. other players might think it is the perfect mori design. fun is all subjective.
Whole point of mori is to skip hook states.
No I have to disagree with that assessment. OLD mori's were like that, but almost all Mori's have been updated/reworked to only serve as a final flavour kill in death hook/end game OR as a threat to force a slow down side quest on survivors.
The only ones left that are still universally criticised by Survivors and Killers alike because they do exactly as you say, bypass hook states, are Pig's Tampered Timer add-on and Michael Myers Tomestone Piece add on.
Just weakening his addons makes him more irrelevant to play.
Yeah that's kinda the point. Nothing can be done to improve his base kit while he has this execute in it's current form. I'll tolerate conceding the iri, as it has sizeable downsides for its strength, and iri's tend to significantly change gameplay so maybe still has a place in the game... but his one TP add-on being problematic is pretty much what every single player already voices to death.
he does have counter-play in regards to using LOS at high-wall loops and locker counter-play. there is not much wrong with it other then it is somewhat cheap mori to play against.
//~
other players might think it is the perfect mori design. fun is all subjective.
Ofc it is subjective, and maybe if you squint and lean hard that looks like counterplay.... but I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone who will say having you're only option be to break LOS all the time and then hop in a locker to force a hook instead of an instant kill is fun and engaging gameplay. Most think of it how you do... cheap and boring.
I'm happy to listen to, debate and even be convinced by anyone who wants to defend this gameplay. I argue points like this so I can learn, and while I appreciate you're playing devil's advocate, you need a strong argument if that's what youre doing... and the fact pretty much all discussions around Tomestone Piece and Evil Incarnate are that they are extremely frustrating/painful/problematic from.both Killers and Survivors suggests that this player base who loves these mechanics is not prevalent at all.
Basekit execution on death hook gives players the benefit of being able to resolve a lot of this pain and be actually fair, and still keeps Myers as the only standing execution in the game.
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@WorthlessBeing said:
SWF and you have suddenly no power. That's what prevent any shapeshifting killer from existing.
On this Shapeshifting point, does anyone have the trailer where Legion actually shapeshifted from a survivor to Legion while in view of the camera? I am probably Mandela affecting myself here, but I'm sure I saw it at some point where Legion shifted from a Feng min or something to Legion....
OFC in this thread, I've never said shapeshifting, I've only said having Legion as is take on survivor animations, and obviously only as an easter egg towards this trailer. Legion is already small and a lot of skins look like survivors at a glance, so just no TR and using animations would be enough.
If I were to make it a serious suggestion (as this is basically a faster moving version of Pig in stealth), as well as the penalty stun switching to normal walk, I'd have switching to FF also require Legion to take a second to pull out their knife and switch to Killer mode again before starting FF.
The driving point here is that Legion is in a decent place for balance... this addition isn't meant to rework how you play Legion... you SHOULD play Legion how Legion is currently played... but it'd be fun to have this little game as something you can do on the side :)
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514435#Comment_3514435
Everyone only has a problem with the tombstone piece, just keep the tombstone itself the same
Besides, I like the thematicness of it and whole thing that Myers just doesn't care lol, he's just a killing machine
Aye, I agree, it is very much on brand for Myers, and is amusing I guess for the memes...
However it is still pretty crappy an experience from the survivor side... and I'd say also crappy for gameplay for both sides. You remove so many elements of the game playing this play style, it's pretty far from anything I would consider fun, even as killer... like literally your counter play to instant kill Myers is to not bother with chase and just sprint to hide in a locker, and that is only effective because likely Myers is trying for Evil Incarnate... It's counterplay in the same regards as taking a dive 3 times in boxing for a TKO to avoid getting knocked out... which is a shame because normal Myers is actually quite fun to play both as and against IMO.
I don't necessarily consider my suggestion the best solution... far from it in fact... Devil's point of making his execution basekit seems the most sensible idea to me, but I'd impose the same restrictions as other mori's like Pyramid Head. If he just got it only on death hook, where you could just execute a player from EW3 whether healthy, injured, or dying, it's much less frustrating, cause the alternative scenario is you down the survivor with exposed anyway and then hook... so it's no difference to normal really.
With that in mind I'm OK with Judith Myers Tombstone staying as it is as his alternative gameplay that iri's tend to offer. You lose the ability to kill dying survivors if you really want the locker hiding gameplay... but Tomestone Piece should be nuked from orbit and made something totally different.
This also addresses the abysmal Evil incarnate Challenge as something you can also do on normal Myers instead of having to run this irritating cheesy add-on.
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I'd definitely vote for being able to disable the profanity filter on my end.
To get on my soap box and be melodramatic about it:
It is my responsibility to filter out elements from my own life I want to see or not, I don't need someone to pre-emptively shield me in case I MIGHT get upset... it's a prevailing attitude of the modern world that everyone needs to be protected. The world at large doesn't care about my, or anyone else's feelings, and sheltering people is not beneficial to them in the long run. Eventually you will encounter someone who doesn't respect or care if you're offended, and you need to be able to handle that... preferably by taking a higher path that doesn't sink to their level.
To tackle it from a philosophical point of view, interacting with people and things that upset, annoy or anger you is how you build the inner strength to ensure your mind is not so brittle that mean words can affect it, and we'd all benefit from being a little more resilient instead of pretending like the world owes us something.
Mostly being able to write something like "Bloody hate mate, great chainsaw! You ######### eviscerated my ass there!" would make my day.
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Hahahah, funny.
I don't think it'll be a problem, as we aren't actual stopped by the turrets, you just become a regular m1 killer and you can still look down avoid flashlights.
At most it'll be slightly annoying... but people sat trying to repair to keep it up will take hits from you, and you'll get far more out of them doing this than you lose...
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3516504#Comment_3516504
Oh yeah for sure! If you have any other questions go ahead and shoot me a DM!
As for 360's, they can be a little difficult to deal with at first but with time they become very easy to deal with. They were a known thing back then how ever they were then and still used as a last ditch effort at getting away. It also didnt really work against Legion since his power didn't cancel upon a missed attack in Frenzy. In fact it was actually a known thing to constantly lunge and whiff while in Frenzy since you would gain more distance that way.
Also you are indeed correct about Frank's Mixtape. Without it, Legion needed to stab a Survivor 4 times before they went down. With it, its only 3 times. The numbers were the following: Deep Wound Timer was 30 seconds, (nowadays its 20 seconds) and a hit on some one already suffering from Deep Wounds would take off 10 seconds. Add on Franks Mixtape, and it took off 15 seconds. One thing that would make the moonwalking build effective (just made the process quicker) was another add on; Stab Wounds Studies, which took off 5 seconds when initially applying Deep Wounds to a Survivor. This add on was basically only good for that tho and was pretty useless otherwise
How ever, there was a PTB where the devs wanted to try to fix one of Legion's issues, that issue being the lack of healing that Survivors did/still do since it just wasn't worth it with how easy he can hit you. So what they tried was when The Legion would stab a Survivor in Frenzy and they were already injured, their timer was 20 seconds instead of 30 seconds. May not seem that significant at first, but people soon realized that if you pair that with Stab Wounds Studies and Franks Mixtape, and you could basically instadown Survivors. Luckily, that never got pass the PTB and Legion remained unchanged that patch.
Didn't cancel!? Woooooooow. That's insane xD
Ooooof... instant down from frenzy... there is a lot of pain there... The bitterness some folks have toward this game is a little more understandable xD
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3516443#Comment_3516443
Yeah I've been around for quite some time now, so I have a good bit of knowledge when it comes to these kind of things
Those videos posted above does do a decent job, al though it does get a few things wrong (such as what was mentioned previously, and other videos like them are similar)
How most people did play Legion wasn't the Moonwalking way but the chase way which was just as frustrating to play against. Didn't matter how good you were as Survivor, nothing you could do to stop a Legion from popping his power when you were at a window or pallet to get another hit. One thing that made this more effective and actually some what work is the fact that Legion didn't have to wait for their power to be fully recharged in order to use it, they just needed 10%. Pair that up with a faster recharge of 15 seconds from full use and you could do literally nothing to avoid a Legion who wanted you down.
Old DbD is something I love talkin about btw so if you got anymore questions, go right ahead! :)
Hah! I may just take you up on that!
I dig through a lot of the old patch notes, old content videos, and discussions around this game. I'm a new player, so I've nor been round long enough to see majority of chapter releases. Following back through the trail of changes and working out/understanding why those changes were made is really enjoyable to me.
Suppose this thread should stay on topic with Legion really, I may PM you from time to time if thats ok XdlD
One consistent theme I see in a lot of older content is the player base wasn't as skilled back then. With old Legion and this idea of no counters, was spin teching not really a known thing back then or was there some other element that made it harder to do? I know when I've played Legion, I have had my feral frenzy countered by this, and had to learn pretty quick to be more cagey about hits... 😅
Wasn't there also an add on that increased the deep wound reduction value? Was it Frank's mix tape? I've heard a legend about a pretty famous streamer who straight up banned everyone who ran that add-on on Legion xD
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@Shroompy said:
"Its fascinating looking back at the release of Legion, the Killer had so much hype surrounding the idea of impersonating survivors in the game, that had technical limitations preventing the idea from becoming a reality"
No one, and I mean no one thought Legion was going to impersonate Survivors. The very first theory that came around was a multi personality killer as one of the teasers we had gotten was this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/VKVDUR739P3J/image.png
A single person looking in a mirror, multiple reflections looking back, with the caption "Within darkness, lies a legion". The only other teaser we had gotten for Chapter 10 was of a snowy resort, which we now know to be Ormond.
Legion impersonating Survivors was an idea that started floating around after the game awards of 2018, specifically because thats when the trailer came out
Fascinating! I wasn't aware of community reaction to that teaser. I was of the impression the 4 Legion characters in the Chapter Splash, and ofc the trailer cemented that idea pretty quick, then had to be ditched, mostly cause of the points above. The more you know.
https://youtu.be/aQf3oSNVMHgArdetha does a nice breakdown of Legion's release, which was my first introduction looking at the character.
Kinda bonkers seeing the power how it was on release... yikes 😅
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Hehehe, all your points above are ofc why you can't add a killer like this... it's a cool idea that doesn't work in practise.
It could never be something to factor seriously into actual game balance. If it were to ever exist, would only be added as a means to goof with survivors and have some fun 😏
You may notice nothing else in Legions kit gets touched... at the end of it all, Legion is still Legion, and should be played how he is currently... but being given the ability to make your Legions animations and movement like that of a survivor would be an amusing Easter Egg to harken back to the original idea if one were to take it seriously.
Who knows... maybe you may even briefly fool someone before you go back to frenzying as per usual... 🤣
Literally no reason for BHVR to do it, other than maybe for a April Fools gag or something 😁
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@EmmaFrostyEyes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/387907/is-giving-door-hatch-common
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I do it alot. Its fun for me to be nice
I'm the same... I find it quite funny trying this weird game of trying to convince survivors I'm friendly.
My most fun friendly story:
I had a newbie Jill once, who was obviously new. I was a Pig on the Game and had 10 hooks with 4 gens and so decided to let the last 2 go... I downed and let both wiggle free to confirm to myself I "won" then went passive.
The Jane got it quick, and started working on gens... the Jill didn't get that me letting her wiggle free and me AAing gens was me trying to let her escape. I was constantly trying to signal her to do gens and she just kept running no matter how many times I stopped and stared, or stopped short and didnt swing at her.
In the end she ran into the 1 way bathroom and I managed to sneak up and block the door... she immediately panicked and ran around the room looking for a way out, but eventually realised she was trapped. I used my roar and hit the gen a few times, and finally she got it and started doing gens... though she still stayed a good distance from me and was twitchy on the remaining gens whenever I got even remotely close from that point on... like she expected a double cross.
She even booked it out of the gate immediately when it was finally opened withour turning back, as Jane gave me a boop and went on her way.
It was kinda adorable as much as it was frustrating... I've never had to work so hard to let someone escape before or since xD
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3515583#Comment_3515583
he is an inferior Ghostface in almost every way..
I think he has advantages. one advantage he has is that he cannot be broken out of stalking. The other advantages is that he can use perks that surpress his TR in EV3 to emulate the 99% mark GF gameplay. Myer's is in a better spot than he ever has been for m1 killer. He might not emulate being a late game killer but he does have some perk synergy to make his gameplay relevant. for that reason, I don't think he needs any changes. his mori is strong gimmick and it wins like 99% of games. his base-kit is not that great but smart perk synergy can make his power more effective.
Admittedly I haven't played him since the perk rework, and I have heard (and can see) that new Coup de Grace and Thrilling Tremours are absolutely bonkers on him... Would you say he is strong enough outside of Tombstone Piece with this perk reliance?
There is a part of me wondering if the current Mori should just be base kit active on Death Hook while in EW3 and call it a night.
Have the Tomestone Piece/JMT add-ons add additonal stalk per survivor, as well as simply allowing you to do it on dying survivors too without needing an offering... obviously the charge times would be drastically reduced or even removed. I don't think anyone would find that unfair. The fact you can go for an exposed stab and instant kill to avoid any saves is not especially strong, but is sufficient as a benefit.
Tomestone Piece: Having that benefit at the expense of getting knocked out of EW3 seems fair for a purple.
JMT: The better version of tombstone piece... though as an iri it probably needs more... but you could basically do anything to this and all problems are solved to my mind.
Fragrant Tuft probably doens't need to change at all, as perma EW3 is a fair trade off for 200% required stalk.
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@Pulsar said:
Remove DC penalties.
That "encourages" players to DC over hook suiciding or just giving up.
Prevent Survivors from re-queing until their bot either dies or escapes the match. This keeps an aspect of the "penalty" in the system.
Give Survivors more BP gains in general, this would encourage people to stick out lost games a little more.
This wouldn't work, cause suicide on hook is still the free way out, you still have a penalty for DCing.
The problem you have got is you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.
- If you allow DCs with no penalty, you get more bots in games, as people won't bother period, as there is no reason not to DC.
- If you have DCs with a penalty, people exploit the unhook system, which outside of being exploited is fine for the most part. Gives a small chance in desperate situations, but is too unlikely to try for without good reason.
The only thing I can think of is a windback. If someone triple unhook attempts, then misses 2 skill checks, DC them, windback and replace them with a bot on hook.
I'd then keep a tally for each account, possibly tied to reports as well, where if a player does it an unspecified number of times (with a lengthy cooldown to remove tallies off your account) you are slapped with a HEFTY ban. Like 5 days or something.
If players never crack the system (and trying to work it out is time consuming and punishing), then you have a big deterrent. You CAN leave any time you want... but you are taking a risk of getting a big ban if you do. That's the only way to stop it. Players will probably then revert to running to the killer to die... but that's where player reports for helping the killer come in.
The point is to have a big enough deterrent that you might as well play it out. Why forc epoeple to play if they don't want to? DbD is an asycnhronous game designed for 4vs1 in a match context. There is no mechanism to drop in and drop out, the game isn't designed that way, if you queue, you need to commit.
If you ARE gonna allow no penalty DC, the only other way I could think of doing it is have a seperate queue for solo survivors with HUUUUUUGE BP rewards, that allows them to connect to in progress games and replace the bot. However again, you'll have this occur way more often than it already does if you allow it.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514494#Comment_3514494
It's not a 20% speed boost. That's factually wrong. Haste is a speed boost. Survivors are gaining 20% more distance with MFT than without, which is not equal to a 20% speed boost.
I've got around 1400 hours on dbd, and I agree with Otz's assessment that the perk is strong and does too much, but the haste by itself is fine.
Maybe instead of assuming the amount of hours a player has, you should focus on getting better as killer?
Otz did also say that the subtle haste is very frustrating because you don't know that a survivor has it. Like old Dead Hard it affects the killer game because it works at mind gaming the killer even when people don't take it.
His suggestion to keep the haste, but notify the killer the survivor has it would resolve this issue.
It still has the problem it is more punishing against the weaker chase killers than the strong ones... but at least if we knew about it, it wouldn't be as troublesome, as we could see thatbthis is likely a survivor who has set up their build for chase, so we can ignore them and force them to do the gens instead of their gen oriented team mates.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3515297#Comment_3515297
All the game becomes is gen progress vs. stalk progress, and who gets there fast is probably gonna win. This is what makes it cheap and frustrating to face... even if Myers isn't that strong. Its unique... but unique because its bad is not a asset to be proud of.
Oh I completely agree. a long time ago. I said that Myer's is lowest skill-floor character in the game. it is because his gameplay doesn't take any effort to be good at. His entire win condition is PWYF. Prior to Nemesis's release, finding obsession as Myer's was difficult because there was no tracking perks to find obsession. You had to wander around aimlessly finding obsession to get 15% haste bonus from PWYF. Now a days, you can just put Lethal pursuer+PWYF and immediately find the obsession. Once you finish tier the perk up, you can just brute force any stalking on any survivor as slow movement has little meaning when you have this giant amount of haste. As soon as you acquire t2 to 99%, most will just try to run away from generators as they instantly get deleted. you repeat that process with another survivor until 2 survivor remain. After that you down 1 survivor and camp the hook.
it is not very engaging mori's. the build-up of it is not really there. you don't feel like you earned the mori. you feel like you got mori because game said you get mori's. I think it is same problem why people dislike head-pop pig. it is that weird lack of input for high reward.
I know I can't speak for everyone, but I myself find Myers boring as snot to play this way as well. Any kills I get I don't really feel like I earned, and ultimately I enjoy the chase and mind games throughout the whole game that I get with standard Myers, that becomes sorely missed when I'm just looking to kill each player as fast as possible. It's like tunneling on crack.
I agree. I do not find Myer's engaging to play. I kind of feel same way about Pig and her jigsaws. her jigsaw are like tunneling on crack. At the same time, I can somewhat sympathize with myer's that run said add-on and Pig players that tunnel. their killer is not particular good at the chase and they do not have many redeeming qualities outside of that. Myer's ability is almost designed for gen-rushing. in theory, he's suppose to be a killer that has slow start and by the end of the game, he has unbeatable end game. It is just that at base-kit, I do not think he expresses an unbeatable end-game. His unbeatable end-game is mostly that cheesy mori strategy that I describe in paragraph 1. I think he was designed at a very early stage of dbd where most player were not that great at the game. the idea of unlimited instant downs looks like unbeatable feet. I guess he makes new player feel good because... they think they defeated the craziest killer of all time. In reality, Plague and Legion are killer that keep entire team injured for entire trial and being injured is barely drawback to a well-seasoned player.
Too true, you hit the nail, Myers is a fascinating snapshot of DBD design.
His power fits him wonderfully well so I don't think anyone wants to mess with it too much, but without his execution add-ons, he is an inferior Ghostface in almost every way.... weaker stealth with a more difficult to trigger power when you need it
Basekit execution is a solution I prefer to remove that add-on reliance, but execution shouldnt be the balancing component. Though it is weaker, the more I consider options, the more I come to think Evil Within as it is, is largely fine at realising the unique feel of Myers... so I'd leave EW as it is, but...
I'd be tempted to add tokens to EW with your "scaling him into your late game monster" point with some kind of condition. I want to say hooks... which is probably right... if a little boring. Whatever it is the execution in EW3 comes as part of the progress of those marks, along with the stat boosts you mention.
However you do it, I think my general point is stalk time should not be your execution trigger.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3515175#Comment_3515175
shrug.... but that is what makes myer's feel unique. i mean what, all you need to do is pay attention to the surroundings....
I understand the sentiment, I'm a big fan of classic slasher films and ofc am a fan of Halloween... but despite that this is about gameplay first and foremost, and the issue I take with this statement is execution is not even Myer's, or any other killer's, default gameplay; hooks are the primary goal.
Executions are ofc part of the game, but for nearly all executions you start to see a pattern. Either the threat of them is a natural slowdown in the killers kit, or they are an alternative flavour for the final hook only available to the killer towards the end game. That's why most are controlled by hooks or similar: -
- Mori offerings
- Pyramid Heads Final Judgement
- Devour Hope
- Rancor (all gates powered instead)
The only exceptions are Pig and Sadako, who similar to devour hope, are forcing a side quest on survivors that if they ignore, will result in their deaths. In both cases, you shouldn't be relying on getting your power based execution, you should still be primarily going for hooks, and executions come if survivors don't deal with your natural slowdown.
That leaves us with add-on execution Myers, who takes longer to charge his power, and then once charged, starts deleting people from the game. You can argue that this is slowdown, the need to keep avoiding him and breaking line of sight keeps survivors off gens... but the exposure does this already. The execution has no end game control element here, no real chases or looping until it becomes 1 mistake = dead, no healing, no unhooking, no flashlight saves, no hook sabotage, no protection hits. Instead we get... accept the hook by hiding in lockers... yay...
All the game becomes is gen progress vs. stalk progress, and who gets there fast is probably gonna win. This is what makes it cheap and frustrating to face... even if Myers isn't that strong. Its unique... but unique because its bad is not a asset to be proud of.
I know I can't speak for everyone, but I myself find Myers boring as snot to play this way as well. Any kills I get I don't really feel like I earned, and ultimately I enjoy the chase and mind games throughout the whole game that I get with standard Myers, that becomes sorely missed when I'm just looking to kill each player as fast as possible. It's like tunneling on crack.
I am on board for basekit execution, as long as it still leaves way for the game to still have the normal gameplay elements.
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It sounds cool, great passion. For lore flavour I'd probably go for a more unique Tank, as in "there's something special about this one...", a variant that retains more intelligence or something.
Regards to powers, I actually think you've been a little too conservative...
Infected Strength
It feels like this is something that would have a long wind up. I think of the game and you have to sit still for a couple of seconds to pull up a boulder... thats an age in DbD.
I'd have this as a contender high risk for potentially high reward. If you're Hindered while carrying it (as you should be), it won't be like Huntress where you carry the iri in your hand then wait for a locked animation, quickly pull up a shot and go for the down. This seems a stop in place for 1 Hail Mary throw that will only work in open spaces (even if you make it large, close range loops will slaughter you).
I'd make it a large shattering projectile but have a long wind up as you pull the boulder out of the ground. If you get a direct hit, it's an instant down, if it's a shatter hit, it only wounds. This means you could hit the top of a low loop like in Autohaven and have it shatter around the loop to give some anti loop.
Infected Grab
I dont think this needs a charge tbh... I'd just have this as an ability to throw carried survivors. Give it a wiggle progress cost about the same as carrying them the same distance would be.
Throwing them will breaks gens, break dropped pallets snd walls, and will wound struck teammates. The cost is you have to pick up again, potentially allowing flash saves.
Boomers
Pretty much fine tbh. No worries here.
Amusingly you went the other way for the perks, these are pretty ridonkulously strong. 😆
Meathead - There are so many Killers this becomes really nasty on; Nurse, Blight, Wesker, Artist... I'd actually put Quick Tempter here as itvstill fors thematically, or I'd go with something like "when in bloodlust, you break walls, pallets and gens 20/30/40% faster. This increases by and additonal 5% perk additional tier of blood lust". Considering you lose bloodlust doing these things, this seems a fair trade off.
Quick Temper - The afformentioned change messes with this one. This killers power I feel is heavily restricted in indoor or high wall heavy maps, he'll struggle greatly and need help in his basic chase. I'd be tempted for something like "After breaking a wall or pallet, for the next 5 seconds you charge bloodlust 50% faster" or some equivalent.
Destructive Properties - You'd struggle to sell undoing a gen of your choosing to any Survivor, even if its a once use only and requiring a 1 tap, the fact you can camp that single gen in your own chosen 3 gen setup is really strong... snd you habe to be wary of gen regression perks in general in a 3 gen setup. This'd be one of those perks that really make it super hard to balance the regression values... because you are always gonna be on a knife edge between having the perk be kinda useless or absolutely busted.
I'd be tempted to go with something like "Every 10 uninterrupted seconds you are not in chase you gain a token up to a maximum of 6. This effect disables for 10s seconds when you down a survivor or kick a generator. For every token you gain a 3% instant regression when you kick a generator". This about half the potential strength of PGTW, as you gain it passively and can store it without actually having to achieve anything, but it does mean if your struggling to find survivors, you're building a benefit.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514435#Comment_3514435
After SIX hooks? WITH a +150% increase in stalk AND a speed penalty? Let's just go ahead and make Evil Incarnate impossible to achieve.
Yeah fair point, I was being conservative. You can lower/remove penalties as needed, its the concept that's important.
I did consider 5 hooks because although thats not the mathematical modpoint, for intents and purposes of the game, it is mid point due to the fact the last survivor is dead regardless... but I didn't want to go too hard because:
- You execute literally anyone you can catch from that point on via any means, meaning you noo longer get messed over by accidently swinging or locker hopping.
- You can slug and deny hatch for the Achievement, which was always a serious gamble before.
- I was operating on the assumption this frees up base kit buffs elsewhere now Tomestone Piece isn't busted AF
The point was to reduce the oppressive nature of this part of his kit, to allow other changes to be made 😉
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The main issue is Myers execution must still exist because of associated achievements... but it comes from a completely different time of the game where a Mori was just a straight up kill that had no hook requirement or a 1 hook requirement.
This makes his execution add-ons a problem, cause they are designed around a game that no longer exists. They NEED to be brought up in line with modern Moris.
I would modify his execution add-on to work something like: -
Judith Myers Tomestone
- After 6 hooks grants the ability to kill healthy, injured or dying Survivors while in Evil Within III.
- Increases the amount of Evil required to reach Evil Within III for the first time by +150 % (+7.5 Stalk points).
- Reduces the Movement speed of The Shape by -5 % while in Evil Within III.
Tomestone Piece
- After 6 hooks grants the ability to kill healthy, injured or dying Survivors while in Evil Within III.
- Killing a Survivor drains the power of Evil Within III, resetting it to Evil Within II.
- Increases the amount of Evil required to reach Evil Within III for the first time by +100 % (+ 5 Stalk points).
Differences in bold. The numbers are open to tweeks ofc, but these changes should mean: -
- Survivors get a better experience by making Myers play the normal game for a while to fulfil the hook requirement, while slowing down his progress to his mid/late game pressure.
- 6 hooks for the Judith Myers Tombstone Iri means he's already earned the victory. You took a huge slowdown, especially when combining this with the permanent tier 3 add-on, but still got great pressure and should be afforded the ability to basically clean up. As such I reduced the movement speed slowdown.
- 6 hooks for the Tombstone Piece means means he has got a commanding lead, and if he picks his target right he can bypass health states for a quick elimination to close it out, but he can't do it out of the gate, so removes the busted power this add on brings.
- Remove the hiding in lockers as "counterplay". Being forced to accept a hook because you don't want to be executed is just silly. It's only a thing because Myers is not really playing the typical game by going for executions rather than hooks, which the previous points hopefully address.
- Allows other buffs elsewhere in his kit because this instant execution option isn't available from very early on.
- Retains the ability to get the Achievement/Trophy, keeping it challenging, but also not making it a stars align pain in the ass challenge.
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513529#Comment_3513529
As long as the devs continue try and play weird games with automatic camera movements, Lightborn needs to stay as it is.
If the goal is see players actively outplay each other then they have to facilitate that by leaving camera control in the hands of the player.
Also if the blind effect doesn't happen there is no point in doing the stun.
Well, I can't see why the camera moving requires Lightborn to be unaffected... unless you're saying the stun camera movement causes motion sickness in a minority of people, so now they can't use Lightborn with that change?
Regards to not being stunned as you aren't blindee... I'd rebrand it as "dazzled" in the perk description ;)
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Just needs the ability to tell your solo Q teammates you have it, and Deli would be aces. I usually end up using it early, out of concern my teammates will all leave their gens for me 😔
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Know the feels man, the game can tilt the F outta you sometimes. Like today, it's final day of the month, which means everyone plays uber mean and cheap at all times.
I'm currently on a 20 game survivor losing streak, cause I'm playing kinda fun perks, and trying to get season challenges done, and map challenges done.
Needless to say I was tilted a while ago, and now every game just makes me make even more mistakes cause I'm frustrated and should stop...
I keep wondering if my iridescent season rank genuinely has no effect on my MMR... cause you'd think after losing 20 games you'd start going up against lower ranked killers not running the swettiest perks/add-ons and using the dirtiest tactics... but hey ho xD
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@Nos37 said:
I don't like Sloppy Butcher. It's too much for just 1 perk slot. Imagine if Enduring and Brutal Strength only used up 1 perk slot.
Lightborn's currently bugged right now anyway. Killers can still be blinded (nothing obscures their screen, but their lunge is disabled)
... I actually like that as a potential change to the hard counter nature of the perk... immunity to the blind effect, but not the associated stuns.
As a killer I don't like that Lightborn just removes flashlights and flashbangs from the game. Admittedly I wasn't here during the hey day of insta blinds, and the locker blind change was also a great change... so I understand WHY Lightborn is how it is... but I feel like flashlights now are in a pretty fair spot... thus Lightnorn isn't. It takes no skill regarding positioning or area control on my part, I just slap on the perk and that's that.
Pulling off flashlight saves against a competant killer is risky, and can be pretty tough/heavily punished, and players trying it is something I want to encourage: both to reduce gen rush and try to keep the game chase oriented.
If I were to change Lightborn:
- Nerf: You are no longer immune to the blind effect.
- Rework: When blinded, only the outer edges of your FOV are affected. (Literally only enough to indicate you are being blinded for killer feedback).
- Buff: You recover from all light induced stuns (flashlight, flashbang and blast mine) 30/50/70% faster.
This would mean there is counterplay still available to survivors, you CAN still "blind" the killer... but he can still see you, and he's recovering fast, so you can bet he's coming for you xD
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Huntress
I do like the idea of Huntress iri being changed to insta-down on long range snipes and thus granting more hatchets... Only real issue is its been done before, and kinda makes the iri feel generic.
I don't really consider it problematic myself due to the high risk/high reward nature of it. She's a slower killer with a lullaby to make stealth harder, so shes more likely chasing, and is vulnerable to loops and successful mind games, and she gets 1 shot, that if she misses, she's gonna waste a LOT of time.
Hitting long range axes is really difficult and requires great prediction and mind games if the survivor is aware they are being targetted.
Clown
Now Clown is complex cause his power is so simple and is good for expressly one purpose; he is exceptional at 1vs1 and anti looping, and that is literally all he has. He gets easily bum rushed for even the slightest things not going his way in chase. This addon gives him an immediate potency boost, and allows him to end a chase even faster... so makes him even better at the one thing he good at to a pretty oppressive degree in skilled hands.
I'd like to see his basekit improved to spread his choices a little more, but while this addon is what it is, it kinda blocks him from being buffed in other areas.
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Gen-rushing is an interesting term.
It can only really exist if it is considered an unfair, dishonourable tactic that is accepted as a valid strategy, but eliminates elements of the game that create the fun for both sides... I.e. managing chases, saves, heals, hexes, etc. Similar to tunneling, you can't criticise players for simply playing optimally...
I myself attribute the term to an organised team of Commodius Toolboxes with full charge/BNP add-ons, and taking Hyperfocus/Prove Thyself/Built To Last or other gen progression/charge perks, for the express purpose of rushimg generators as fast as possible and get the game over as soon as possible.
Noone has done anything wrong as far as the rules are concerned, we as players consider it cheap and against our imaginary list of rules... which is the same issue with tunneling and camping. Noone is doing anything wrong, it's just a dishonourable way to play...
This is why tournaments have restrictions on survivors taking repeated items and certain add ons.
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Sadako with Sloppy Butcher vs. A scrub team (I know, cause I'm in it) has mad slow down :S
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3512615#Comment_3512615
Both of ideas would kill perk.
Not everyone are using exhaustion perks. So resetting exhaustion is really not big reward. It's weak reward for end game perk. But probably some people would still use it for resetting exhaustion and free heal.
The second idea is very terrible, nobody would use this perk anymore. If we really want to kill Adrenaline, yeah second suggestion is the way to do it.
Adrenaline is end game perk and it should be big reward. Because it's one time use perk. If our plan is make people to less use it, we need to make healing viable again. Or maybe we need to make staying injured more dangerous, so survivors won't trust end game healing and they would use more time for heal.
But nerfing perk with these ways is just bad.
With all due respect... saying it will "kill the perk" is pretty melodramatic, do you really think anyone will look at that and say "Oh no... I have to take an exhaustion perk... man, those perks suck... why would I want to do that?". SB, Lithe, BL, Overcome are some of the most popular perks in the game, and usually slapped on any build to great effect.
That's why I mentioned about what you want to incentivise. I know you're very survivor sided, but try to see the killers perspective. With Adrenaline being prevelant, how do you prevent value from coming from it? You tunnel. You tunnel hard. The survivors not having a 4th perk in the early/mid game means you have to captilaise while you can, you cannot allow anyone who has been hooked to get to end game. This means as a survivor you need perks to help you survive to end game, and the best perks for that are, for most people, exhaustion perks.
Having to take an exhaustion perk to get full value from Adrenaline means a survivor has taken 2 perks for survival/looping. That means they only have 2 more for other effects they want, which limits their capacity to take gen speed, healing, totem cleansing perks. It's a natural means of smoothing out the usage of Adrenaline as a commitment to killer distraction, instead of a slap on any build and get strong value perk.
Killers tunnel even when you don't have Adrenaline? You yourself can take stronger perks in the early/mid game to combat it. My point is the perk is reasonably balanced, but it incentivises tunneling. My rework means a survivor is naturally pushed towards committing more to the chase role, instead of everyone just throwing in their builds and really pushing Killer to just go "Screw it, I'm tunneling".
EDIT: I don't do this kind of tunneling BTW, I engage with this Adrenaline discussion purely from my interest in game design. My goal with this suggestion is to make Adrenaline more interesting and a little more skill based. I feel a free health state combined with the recovery of an exhaustion perk at end game that you can trigger at any time when you actually need it, rather than just unga bunga speed for 5 seconds achieves that goal nicely. I certainly have no intent to kill the perk, and if you think it will, I would be interested in why exactly you think that
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3512553#Comment_3512553
So perk is fine or not?
Because your suggestions are gonna destroy this perk. Especially the last one. If it is fine, why you are trying to butcher it?
NOTE: I apologise for the large amount of text, but this is a hot and complex topic, so one can't afford to half explain their thought process. Hope you bear with me!
I'm saying it's fine imo balance wise... without other busted perk combos like BU-FTP in end game amplifying killer frustration.
However the speed AND health state makes it pretty unforgiving for the Killer in the end game not running the counters... which is why it gets the hatred it does. The counter argument to this ofc is, you didn't take an end game perk, so your early/mid game should be stronger, if you made it here to end game, you didn't push your advantage while you had it... but that logic gets into debates about gen-rushing and Killer tunnelling, and the fact that kilelrs have 4 perks while survivors collectively have 16... Killers can't counter everything, so they need to prevent people getting their Adrenaline value while they can... so it depends what you want to incentivise.
My personal vote is for a rework for recovery from exhaustion instead of 5s flat haste across the board. The free health state is certainly NOT a weak perk bonus even if the exhaustion recovery doesn't help you, and you're probably running an exhaustion perk with it anyway. This means you can choose the form your Adrenaline takes. Take Sprint Burst for basically the same as it is now, but if you want Lithe, or BL, or Head On (if you're a nut case), you can. You still get your health state, and your preferred boost... and you get the benefit of being able to trigger your boost when you want rather than only when the gen pops, at the cost of it not being QUITE as strong. That's hardly destroyed, and ofc the rest of survivors who didn't get the value from the exhaustion recovery... they have their exhaustion perk anyway.... so its no foul regardless.
The second suggestion is a nerf for sure... but that suggestion is for if you want a true nerf to it that doesn't interfere with the perks primary value, which is helping the looping survivor gain health progress and gain great distance on the killer towards the exit gates, It benefits the people who are actually in danger currently, while the ones in safety are hopefully opening the gates, missing out of the value, giving an element of risk vs. reward.
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TBH, I personally think the perk is pretty much fine... it's a 1 time use, and thus has to be strong at end game to be worth taking it. I think a lot the hate comes from the slew of endurance effects available to survivors, making this perk feel even more punishing for killers... We have No Way out, Blood Warden, NOED, ofc, however if you aren't running these things, you've basically lost already, there isn't a great deal you can do to recover the game at this point.
My only real gripe if anything is that a whole team running it gets the full value, meaning everyone is immediately in prime escape position and halfway to the gates before the killer can really move anywhere. Any attempts to change it imo should endeavour to: -
- Grant more value to the person who is currently occupying the killer.
- Limit the power given to people not occupying the killer and doing gens.
- Preferably make it a little more interesting for build variety.
1 rework I've harped on repeatedly in changing the 5s buff to exhaustion recovery so you can take your exhaustion perk of choice. This means if you are in chase, you get your perk back to use (as your exhaustion is probably gone already), and people not in chase don't get their 5s boost regardless, they need to activate their exhaustion perk, which they probably have anyway.
Alternatively if you did actually want to NERF Adrenaline for real, make it so it only affects survivors within the killer terror radius (healing, speed and all). Again, more benefit to the person currently occupying the killer. This would make it feel much more fair, and could be pretty clutch while the team is slugged... but wouldn't feel as bad as the whole team rubber banding from all wounded regardless of where they are in the map.
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@Sharby said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511630#Comment_3511630
You can check my post history if you want, I don't care about being tunneled and camping is already being solved.
I legit only type gg wp all in end game chat no matter what happens and even then some killers throw a tantrum and act like I'm bm'ing , I've even been told to off myself after saying ggwp so idk it goes both ways.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/VBCXRRBFDPT1/anna.png
The point is, saying that you're being pushed to being a mean killer because of a few bad experiences tells me you weren't really sold on being nice anyways, it should be obvious that its a minority treating that way that's not representative of the whole at all.
The way your post is worded literally just feels like trying to farm "survivor bad" replies which is Us vs Them.
Well, speaking as someone who used to have a lot of rage issues with games when I was younger, I want to offer a little advise to help... this is a classic problem with text based communication. You can't put intination and tone on a text, so your intent is left to the reader to interpret. Thats why emoji's exist.
The reason you get this response is if this person just got absolutely whooped, they are already feeling pretty negative. Nice killers don't want to play dirty tactics, but they also don't want to lose. They want the game to be close and put up a good fight... but after a tanning they're already in the challenging position of taking stock of just getting rinsed.
You say "GG WP" at that point, their mindset at that time is "no it wasn't a good game, I got smashed, it wasn't even close... you must be taking the piss, so screw you".
Though it isn't your job to deal wirh their feelings, if you want a less hostile response, try leading with something a little empathetic to soften it first, like "ul killer, thnx for the game! gg wp all!".
You will still get hostile responses, when tempers flare, they flare, and toxic people will always be toxic, but little gestures like this will mitigate it somewhat for you.
If they continue to be angry, you can follow up with something like "don't sweat it man, I know that game was rough, but try not let it get to you. Good luck on next!". A little gesture like that could make a big difference to someone's day... and if they're still sulking after that, you're subtly pointing out that they are being the #########. So win win.
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At least you can dance around it for the cosmetic, but if you're a completionist, yeah you go hard.