UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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Just to bring up the obvious counterpoint...
Isn't it only within a certain range though? By the time you're in range to see that it's a fake pallet, you've already committed to this tile and are unlikely to make it to another one?
I mean personally I don't see the harm in the pallets changing colour only once they've been triggered to be ruptured, but this is still the first thought that comes to my mind... if you didn't know it was a dream pallet before, by the time you get close enough to realise it's a dream pallet, it's too late to go anywhere else, and you can't throw a rupturing pallet now...
Or am I wrong? (I can't play the PTB, so I can only follow others traffic/content and query like this)
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@GentlemanFridge said:
I think it's partially a result of trying to arbitrarily define a 'tie', as well as the MMR system. To me, a 'tie' implies a stalemate. Both parties have exhausted all of their options and cannot progress the game/match, or achieved the exact same result. It's impossible for either party to win, or to lose, so it's a tie.
(forgive the train-of-thought style, i am "thinking out loud", so to speak)
With DbD, it's much trickier to define a tie, because of the opposing objectives. It's impossible for both parties to run out of options at the same time (aside from bugs), so you'd have to look at both parties achieving the same result. What would that even mean in the context of DbD? The survivors are trying to complete the gens and get out through the gates. If at least 2 survivors escape, that means they did just that. So, by all means, the killer failed their objective. Moreover, there's no obvious killer equivalent of only getting 3 gens done. Maybe you could argue it's the amount of hooks they got. But some players don't care about how many hooks they got, as long as they score kills, so that can't be our definitive answer.
In the case of a 2k, the killer completed their half of their objective, but failed the other half. But then, did the survivor fail half of their objective? I wouldn't say so, since they still got all gens done and at least one gate open. Still, it's the closest we can get to both parties achieving the same result. But then, it can hardly be called the 'same result', since it's still fundamentally opposed.
So do we then look at individual survivors? Again, in the case of a 2k, did the survivors win two times, and lose two times? I believe Patrick Harris was talking about this on a dev stream some time ago when he explained the MMR system. His answer was to not actually define a tie. They went with the killer winning/losing twice, and the 'win/loss' counting for each individual survivor. This is ultimately what the MMR system is based on, and what a good amount of players have adopted as their own metric, which had previously never been defined. But it's still weird, 'cause this system implies that both the killer and survivors can 'win', to a degree. How can a game with fundamentally opposed sides see both parties as a partial winner?
Ultimately, I think, it's determined by what you actually play the game for. If you only care for kills, you have the simplest metric possible. Do you only care for hooks? That gets much more abstract and personal. Do you only care for some good chases? I don't even know if you can define that with any kind of metric.
I had this debate the other day regarding defining a tie, and I struggled to find the correct words to articulate my point of view (I dont believe a 2man escape is a tie from the killer perspective, as you failed to hold the gate). Very eloquently put, and thank you for giving me the language I needed to express it 😁
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@Devil_hit11 said:
you might as change add-on to give you infinity bottles(removes reload mechanic). i still prefer revert on nerf.
I know you intend to die on that hill, but it won't happen because the downside was not enough of a downside to counter the power of its effect.
It isn't that hard to score a direct hit with a bottle, I can manage it even on a controller without that much difficulty with multiple shots. A bit like old Myers was artificially propped up by Tombstone Piece, Clown was artificially propped up by Pinky Finger. It was his best add-on by far when combined with his extra bottles add-on, and he could never get any kind of buffs that he really needed to his basekit because this add-on existed.
Instead of shooting down every Pinky Finger idea, might be worth engaging with some alternative ideas rather than leave Pinky Finger in its current state.
Regarding the OP, the immediate reload of all bottle might be a bit much, but maybe if a direct hit gave back 2 bottles immediately and a 50% faster reload speed for 6s, that might be a more interesting effect.
It would give him a playstyle where if he's beaten to a vault he can go for a bottle on the locked animation to instead gain a bottle to maintain bottle pressure.
If he hits in prior to a down, he can always throw his yellow bottle (and reload quickly if he needs to) before he picks up to ensure he's ready for next chase.
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Now that they can't be dropped while rupturing, what is wrong with them?
They seem a pretty strong zoning tool now to me.
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Personally I rather enjoy SoloQ and trying to read the game without perfect information. In a SWF, good company makes it fun, but the actual game experience becomes rather bland because there is no guess work or predictions to engage your mind with. You have perfect info at all times.
As such, regarding voice in public games, as long as I have a menu option to perma mute everyone automatically, fine.
I really don't wanna hear other people's crappy mics, dogs/cats the background, random raging/whooping, all manners of abuse to myself, others or the killer in all the various languages across Europe.
Also don't want my own outbursts (regardless of how warranted they may be) to be broadcast to anyone. I don't trust myself to not swear at someone who unhooks me in full view of the killer and spend the rest of the match arguing with them about it.
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OK some counterpoints: -
- The timer counts down on its own, most survivors are not gonna be in a state where they haven't got at least some progress on their timer already.
- You also gain 15s from just teleporting to survivors, which is on a much shorter cooldown, and something you can do a lot. Your "2 hits" to put survivors to sleep is not a reflection of reality for vast majority of encounters.
- M1s still immediately put survivors to sleep, as do Ruptures from Dream Pallets, which are larger and also no longer droppable, so survivors either path poorly likely giving you an M1, or they keep their good pathing and eat the rupture.
- If survivors are running around removing sleep and getting immunity, they are not doing generators.
- If a survivor is injured, chances are they are not asleep. The healing after wake up is not where the power comes in most frequently, it'll be when an asleep person tries to heal a survivor.
- While the teleport to healing survivors is likely to not be done often, it is a passive slowdown which is the entire point. Your macro map control is gonna be more important for Freddy than your micro chase ability.
Freddy was improved in the PTB considerably and has been buffed overall from that PTB. He is in a vastly superior place compared to where he was before.
Your only legitimate nerf from the PTB is that 5s became 7s on his snare cooldown, which given the slow is longer is a fair compensation, and requires more deliberately use of it rather than spam it constantly. This had to change because he could permanently slow a survivor with his add-ons by chaining snares back to back.
There is now ample skill expression in his kit, lots of tools for him to use, and a lot of mechanics survivors have to be wary of. Your argument is going to need significant improvement to tear the rework down and claim Freddy is "Destroyed", when pretty much every facet of Freddy has been significantly improved over his previous iteration.
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It's not a bad point to be fair.
I guess the reason is along with all the other spawns in a map, having the variants gives a greater illusion that the game is more random and less predictable...this obviously works less and less the older the community gets.
I suppose another reason is different killer powers interact differently with how strong or not each map variant is for them, and the sane us obviously true for perks on both sides... it's likely an attempt to mitigate how influential map offerings are for both sides.
Ideally in a Utopian world all map variants would be equally fun and engaging, however there is an obvious tax of maintenance for that and I suppose the question is are the above 2 points (perceived randomness and map offering strength) worthwhile sacrifices to make the maps more learnable and consistent, as well as easier to maintain?
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It's rare when an aim dressing miss happens... but it is often utterly heart breaking when it does ;🐽;
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I think that's actually a pretty sound suggestion.
Even just psychologically, having that extra button press makes it a bit of a pain to do, and if you showed the DC penalty they'd acrue as well that's a natural way to incentivise players to keep playing...
All we need is a solution to SoH and we're set.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876986#Comment_3876986
Well to sum up the problem, it is that you try to define the goal of this game, when the developers clearly leave that up to ourselves.
That also includes any system like MMR that works to ensure match quality or bloodpoints which works to reward us for play.
Just because a system is in the game does not make a goal, which should be clear because we dont even see those numbers.I mean for all intents and purposes the Emblem system is already what defines the goal of the game by rewarding players with bloodpoints, in that emblems and score event are the only visual indicators that can even be construed as a goal. The only difference is that if you have all the bloodpoints you want/need, then you don't care about the only goal the game gives you, and instead you pursue your own goal in MMR.
Since climbing MMR is a purely player defined goal (which it is by virtue of the fact no one knows what their MMR is), switching it from kills/escapes to kills/escapes plus scoring more points doesn't change that, it is still a player defined goal to try and climb MMR, just the parameters are slightly different. There is no "defining a new goal" by changing how an invisible metric works, its entirely the players choice if they want to score more points, or just go for kills.
If anything it offers more choice in pursuit of that goal, because going for kills/escapes is certainly still an aspect of climbing MMR, its not removed from the equation, but scoring points is also a part of climbing MMR as well, so as a player you can go for either, or, or both to climb MMR.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876839#Comment_3876839
Everything in the actual game itself tries to encourage you to get as many hooks as possible, to get as many chases as possible, to use your power as much as possible, to stun the killer as much as possible, to complete gens and break totems, to unhook and heal…
The goal of DBD lore wise is to cause as much pain and fear as possible for the Entity to feed on… and survivor wise to save each other from that fate, but most importantly save yourself,
No, that is you again deciding that bloodpoints should be your goal. OR using the Lore of this game. But its just flavor, the entity does not actually exist. and nothing will happen if it starves or not. Its a fabrication and not relevant to the game really.
You tell me you agree, but you totally miss the point that this game was made to create an experience, not a goal. whatever goal we each have is fine, its just not something we need the MMR to measure, MMR isn't there to figure out who is the best player, MMR is there to ensure relative matchmaking quality.
Whatever goal we each have is fine, its just not something we need the MMR to measure, MMR isn't there to figure out who is the best player, MMR is there to ensure relative matchmaking quality.
I clearly am misunderstanding your point, because MMRs goal is as you say here to ensure relative matchmaking quality...
In all of my posts in this thread I have made the point that the current system is too simple, since majority of players agree that getting a successful 4k is not necessarily a measure of skill, which Dowsey argued ad nauseum to great effect in his Kills = Skill video, and we all know there are plenty of mean and unfair strategies that don't particularly require much skill to succeed.
From Survivor side, looping the killer for 5 gens and being the one who gets sacrificed on hook while the other survivors leave is not a measure of skill either. This is one scenario, but there are numerous scenarios where skillful players die and non-skillful players escape, and I doubt you can find anyone who will disagree with that point.
Literally the entire point of my post is to appropriately measure skill, you need to have a system that takes game events into account, and the system that currently does this is the emblem system...
This is the point I'm making, that you need to account for actions in game more for a more genuine representation of skill. Is it perfect and flawless? No… likely no system is... but it does a better job of representing skill than the rudimentary kills/escapes current system we have does.
The fact it also relates player skill to satisfying the lore and bloodpoints reward systems of the game is a side benefit, since being encouraged to compete with players of similar skill in a manner that is line with the intended experience is surely the goal of an MMR system is it not? Especially when the alternative is MMR fights against the intended experience of the game.
If I'm not making sense, I'd like to please ask where my explanation is faltering or my suggestion is pushing a detrimental effect, because currently I'm not seeing the objection.
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@DestroyerBG said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876824#Comment_3876824
I said I dont like one thing about demogorgon the hell you mean. And yeah I dont care if someone dcs or not I dont have a killer I love or something I can deal with most killers. Most of them dont have problems to begin with. Wraith, Trapper, Billy and others dont have issues. As for the DEFINITION OF FUN a killer who can use their power with skill and not be brainlessly using it without a thought in the world what they are doing. Aka spamming it until you get a down. I think almost everyone will agree a killer is fun when he has to use skills and thinking with his power. I can't see it being any other way. I think you can agree too probably cause all killers who are liked take actual skill. Billy takes skill and thinking, Wesker takes skill and thinking, Huntress takes it too, same goes for Wraith too and so on and so forth. And they all also got the simple counter of you choosing where you go and if you manage to bloody dodge them or see them coming.
I mean I agree with your choices, and just to be clear, I'm not attacking you directly, but I am trying to get you to see the slippery slope.
I think broadly our preferences for killer are in line…. the only Killer I definitely disagree with you on is Xeno because he absolutely can't spam. For the sake of interest I'll talk about Xeno in a spoiler if you're interested, but it's not a requirement.
He drops to 1.2m/s over 3 seconds if he swings, so he absolutely can't spam. This slowdown occurs if he M2s the turret as well, which is incredibly punishing. I'd argue it's just as jukable, and arguably more so than a Huntress hatchet since it's a slimmer hitbox, and bear in mind Xeno has a 0.2s charge up and a 3s recovery, Huntress has a 2s hatchet cooldown and a 0.9s windup so can spam more than Xeno can, and she is only slowed to 3.08m/s while holding and 3.74m/s while recovering from a throw with no range requirement… so a miss on Huntress is FAR less punishing than Xeno.
He can drag like Nemesis, but unlike Nemesis if he hits any form of terrain the hit immediately stops and he can't continue to drag. To drive the point home, Nemesis is only slowed for 2.25s compared to Xeno's 3s, so not only is it far easier for him to hit, he's also punished less for doing it whether he hits or misses. Xeno's only real strong unique part of their kit is the undetectable map traversal, but that is given an early warning to survivors via turrets.
It's hard to see the genuine complaints about Xeno turrets, because most survivors use turrets REALLY badly... in fact most Xeno's have to use the helmet to protect them from turrets as a staple add-on because a well placed turret can ruin your momentum really easily. As an example if you place a single turret on the opposite side of the direction you intend to run, either the Xeno ignores it and gets knocked out of power, has to turn to m1 it which gives you more distance, or has to M2 it which gives you even more distance. I compared turrets to Trapper traps intentionally. Badly placed and obvious traps don't tend to work very well, but one placed in an awkward unexpected place that messes with a survivors pathing work a lot better, and its the same for Xeno turrets.
Thing is even someone like Billy, I have to regularly defend on these forums because people don't like his free map traversal and unlimited chainsaws. As a matter of fact people regularly complain about how "spammy" Hillbilly is, which sounds a lot like your argument… and objectively speaking, they are not wrong… he can use his chainsaw with no limit and spam it as much as he likes until he gets a hit.
I would argue this is fine, and was how Billy was back in his OG release as well and he was consistently everyones favourite killer for years prior to his overheat mechanic being added. What actually has Billy strong is his Overdrive, where a sufficiently skilled Billy now has the speed to basically get hits guaranteed if he aims it right on almost any tile. This is quite hard to do accurately, but this is what actually makes Billy strong, not his "spammy chainsaw".
I imagine you and I likely agree on this point, but would you say it's fine for people to quit against Billy because he "isn't fun" and "spams chainsaw with no skill until he gets a hit" according to quite a number of people nowadays? Because this is currently what a not insignificant number of people think.
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I trust this is a bug... would have hoped it would be fixed on release cause it was reported very early on (I know cause I reported it), and it wasn't rejected as "not a bug"…
But it does raise an eyebrow since Frddy can counter his own counter 🤨🤨🤨
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ThIs would be awesome…
I also don't trust people on the internet enough to support this :D -
@Emeal said:
For Killer it at least requires you to be competent to 4k, but it does encourage strategies that require you to kill at any cost,
This is completely incorrect, all the MMR system requires for a 4K is the Killer being somewhat better than the Survivors, which will send them up in mmr and send Survivors down in MMR. But the game isnt encouraging you to do anything, other than saying the Entity Hungers or Merciless Killer. Unless you get a dopamine rush out of text on a screen, I dont see how anyone could be motivated to by it. wow the entity is hungry? cry my a river entity.
since kills/escapes are the defining goals of the game, it still makes sense to have them as part of your MMR calculation…
This is also incorrect, it isnt the goal, you role is to kill or survive, but your success is not a goal, its what happens in a scenario some die and some escape. There is more to being a Killer or a Survivor than success, this always seemed clear to me as developers never claim you must succeed to win.
We get to make our own goals, and our goals dont apply to each other.
Would you believe I actually agree with you?
I have argued before that MMR being hidden the way it is means climbing MMR is a pointless objective, because nothing in the game indicates this to you. We know about it because devs announced the SBMM and MMR system, but there isn't actually anything in the game that feeds this back to you. The goal of climbing MMR when you don't even see the result to my mind is completely ridiculous.
Everything in the actual game itself tries to encourage you to get as many hooks as possible, to get as many chases as possible, to use your power as much as possible, to stun the killer as much as possible, to complete gens and break totems, to unhook and heal… and yet people argued vehermently that getting 4 kills and climbing MMR is the aim of the game, because that is a goal they have defined…
The goal of DBD lore wise is to cause as much pain and fear as possible for the Entity to feed on… and survivor wise to save each other from that fate, but most importantly save yourself, and the old Grades system fed into this. The new SBMM has simplified this down to just kills/escapes, which isn't the same thing, and instead of striving to complete more complex objectives, the "skill" has been turned into a simply yes or no question.
So to my mind, combining the 2 together naturally encourages more skillful gameplay, since players who have defined climbing MMR as their goal, have a more complex set of conditions to satisfy realising that goal.
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@DestroyerBG said:
since when is demo a favourite anyway. Tbh the only thing I dislike about him is he can just pretend he is gonna shred and then get a free hit. But other than that he is ok for example. You know IF BEHAVIOUR actually cared they would make all killers fun and not broken or annoying in one aspect. If I sit down I will make you a bunch of ideas how the killers who got something annoying about them can be changed to not be annoying to deal with at all. Trickster just give him new power entirely or make his power actually interactable by letting survivors manually reduce the timer. Singularity just needs his sli[pstreams to have a limit because getting lets 3 pallets out of the way after 3 teleports seems absolutely fair and then the slipstream goes away until he reapplies it. Twins well give Victor actual functionality besides downing survivors as him. Let him drag survivors slowly towards you for example and letting survivors interact with him so that it is not a bloody slug fest every game with them. Huntress needs to again have 5 hatchets because 7 is insane and dumb. Myers needs subtle little change like for example a way for survivors to tell if he has a way to kill them instantly. Here is a bunch of ideas for a bunch of killers who need small changes to not be annoying. AND I CAN KEEP GOING because at the end of the day it is not difficult to think of ideas and fixes for all killers. Behaviour are just lazy and dont want to make the game better and they dont care about their fan base at all. DCing against killers you hate and see that they are broken is fair game for me. At the end of the day this happens because behaviour refuses to actually do their damn job. They just want a quick buck and dont care who thinks what.
Well.. I have evidence Demo is a favourite… it's literally in my post above…
I take it you're not a fan of Demogorgon and he isn't fun for you… So if you think he's not fun and needs to be changed to be fun, what do you say to the 91% of players who disagree with you from that poll? That your opinion is right, and their opinion is wrong, and they need to shut up and listen to you?
All killers need to be changed to be fun… who is the arbiter on which killer is fun and which isn't?
Who is the one who gets the decide what a killer should be and what a killer shouldn't be?
You haven't defined a killer who is "fun", nor defined what your terms of "fun" are. Is yours the only opinion that matters?
If I assume you like Wesker and find Wesker fun, what do you say to the 19% of players who don't find him fun? Just cause there are less of them, does their opinion suddenly not matter?I'm sorry to say my man, you're not automatically right just cause you think you're right; your opinion is one in the well of millions of other players who all have their own opinions. This is what it means to be subjective, you cannot define what people can and cannot enjoy.
The less polite response to the argument you're making is "Who the hell are you to say your opinion is more valid than everyone elses?". Even people like Otzdarva, Hens, Scott Jund, etc, etc, who's opinions carry a lot of weight with a lot of people, still don't have any more valid a claim to being right than anyone else. They still have to explain their stance and face scrutiny for their opinions.
So I say again, you can you dislike killers for a variety of reasons, maybe a lot of people will agree with you, maybe they won't. However if you think it's fine for you to leave because you don't like a killer, you basically are taking the stance its fine for everyone else to as well, and you don't then get to say "Well I like this killer, so you shouldn't quit", which means you embrace the fact that nearly 90% of games will have a DC.
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@kit_mason said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876733#Comment_3876733
Why replace a bad system with a bad system, and why weight the survivor emblems when that means admitting theres a huge problem with the way survivors pip to iri 1?
If they fixed the emblem system maybe I'd be on board, but not before.
Erm... because it's a significant improvement over the current system and there isn't an alternative suggestion that's better? How "bad" it is is gonna have to be something you quantify to reject the suggestion, because the revised version has clear significant advantages over the current system.
Like fine, if we accept the premise the emblem system needs fixing, what is the suggestion to fixing it? How do you score emblems if they don't need to exert their skill at those emblems to win the game because the work for satisfying those emblems is divided by 4 players?
Simple answer is you can't. The killer is involved in every aspect of the game, while a survivor is not, which is a valid observation you've made as a flaw... but it's an unsolvable issue that a utopian "fix this first" response isn't going to resolve.
The emblem system is the current best method of assessing a survivors contribution/performance in a match, and is certainly more accurate than the blanket "escape vs. dead" version we have now.
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@DestroyerBG said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876753#Comment_3876753
Sadly it is not subjective. Nobody can find a killer that is just spamming fun. You can't tell me you find it fun to be spammed until you die. IF SOMEONE REALLY IS HAVING FUN BEING SPAMMED YOU SURE MUST BE MASOCHIST. Nothing you are saying in this comment is actually logical Trickster is not fun no matter what his power is spam and nothing else even if he does not hit you so what the same goes for you you cant shot any skill either by not letting him spam you holding W forward is nothing at all. Singularity can be fun but right now he is camera spammer and to stop him from slipstreaming every 5 seconds you need 100 emps because he can spam a camera in every loop then slip stream you and teleport to you until you either run out of pallets toss down that is if he does not swing through them and hit you anyways. Then there is xenomorph whose only counter is putting stupid turrets that do ######### all because he can break them and it slows him down for 3 seconds maximum while being able to hit you through any pallet or window or force a hit anyways. Tell me how any of these killers are fun huh? I told you all of their problems. They got no skill they are just spam.
Subjective: (adjective) based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.
Even if someone is a masochist it is still subjective whether or not the killer is fun or not. You can define objective problems with a killer sure, but you cannot objectively define what people find fun.
As I say, all of that's your opinion, and you're missing the point. It doesn't matter whether you or I find those killers fun or not, I could argue with you about them, but there is no value in doing so, because the "funness" of those killers is not the point.
Tell me a killer you like, and consult this image to work out the probability of getting a player who doesn't like that killer.
This was a year ago, so a lot of these numbers have changed... but I bet most of these have gone up rather than down, cause most have gotten stronger. Billy certainly isn't there anymore.
If the only prerequisite for DC to be allowed against a killer is if a survivor finds the killer fun... then even fan favourite Demogorgon still has a 32% chance of DCing if all players operate with this "DC because not fun" mentality.
87% chance of a player DCing every game if everyone took the same attitude as yourself man.
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It was quite unbearableble aye.
Like sure if you're still at 5 gens cause a God Oni has been slugging and hooking everyone effortlessly and is now on 6 hook stages while you literally have nothing, fair enough.
However when you're the 3rd person downed/hooked vs. Vecna with 2 and ½ gens completed, both of which were central map gens... why? Why the hell rage quit at this point? This happened 3 times vs. Vecna... all 3 games perfectly winnable, and all 3 give up on first hook when NOT EVEN the first player hooked, and when survivors had strong chances of winning.
Honestly it baffles me how defenders of DC/SoH players can hold their stance when this kind of crap is not only happening but is happening regularly for no good reason.
I don't care how sweaty your games are to think quitting is justified, this nonsense must end.
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@DestroyerBG said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875302#Comment_3875302
yet they all have one thing in common. Spam your power until you down the survivor while not needing any skill whatsoever. Do you think this is fun to deal with. Every health state taken by these killers is just them spamming their power until they hit me without thinking.
The problem is there is no universally liked killer, even the most popular killers have people who hate playing against them. Whether you find a killer fun to go against or not is entirely subjective.
For example with your examples here:
- I'm not a big fan of Trickster, because often all I can do it try to break line of sight and stall as much as possible, but if I'm at an appropriate tile where I can time his knives and mind game him, he's fun to face.
- I find Singilarity engaging to go against, hes quite fun, but he has a few nasty strategies that are hard to overcome, but often if he's trying one of these strategies its a war of attrition, which can be annoying but also fun to try and time with your allies attempts to overwhlem him.
- Xenomorph I find a lot of fun. Using turrets is similar to setting Trapper traps, being plain and obvious isn't so good, utilising quirky and strange unexpected turret locations is very stimulating and fun. Baiting and juking the tail is fun. In fact I'd argue that Xeno is underpowered, because they are punished so hard on a miss,I don't just make it to a tile, I can usually run to the next one after it as well.
Thing is my opinion or your opinion of these killers doesn't really matter... if you're saying it's OK to quit against killers you don't like, you're basically saying it's OK to just DC period.
If everyone quit against killers they dont like, you'd get a DC in about 80% or more of your games (and that's a conservative estimate, remember there are 4 players who may not like the killer). Even the most popular killers your are still looking at 50% chance somebody doesn't like them..
Now imagine your favourite killers to face... would you like it if 50% of the time someone quit against them and left you with a bot or a player down? Hopefully you're now seeing the problem.
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@OrangeBear said:
I think if they are comitting to 8.4.1, he needs a rework.
The devs have shown they don't like chucky's power as a whole, it's been slowly dismantled over a year. They've left him in an unacceptable state and if they won't restore his power he needs a new one.
It's to the point where i think chucky is just a worse designed Pig. Pig's stealth and ambush are much more user friendly, and she is 4.6m/s when ambush isn't suitable. Chucky is 4.4m/s so if slice and dice isn't consistently getting hits then he's bad. The current speed and turn limits especially are super restricting to the point where he isn't getting hits as often as he needs to and it's frustratingly difficult, punishing and unrewarding.
Scamper is still a joke lets be real, because of the turn limits as well. It's a fun gimmick that will work on unaware survivors and likely only has been working because the yelling audio is bugged (silent) when you scamper. It's impractical.
Stealth is pretty bad because of the cooldown too. You can't really afford use hidey ho mode for stealth anymore you need to save it for when you can hit the slice and dice attack. Very bad when he has a 32m terror radius. Oh, he still loses his power when he gets stunned as well.
His map mobility is still poor so he's very susceptible to pre-running and exhaustion perks as well being m2 makes his perk choice very limited. His best add-ons are only minor boosts in power.
Overall, as a former chucky main, i first thought the changes were not that bad and he was salvageable but i've come to realise he has become so bad and i am just done with him.Agreed, I still maintain his scampers biggest problem is it yoinks your camera behind you as you scamper, making it hard to maintain your aim and tile hug, and even just to keep sight of the survivor.
Scamper to my mind need to have it's camera locked, or at the very least, maintain the lock of where you're already looking.
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@kit_mason said:
Emblems arent good indicators for how well a match went, especially for Survivor, whose emblems are split into gens, altruism, chases and not going down for some reason. You can get one or two of these categories, but provided matches are balanced you should never be recieving all four.
I see what you're saying, and you make a good point…
However the current system is even worse for survivor, where you can loop the killer for 5 gens and still be the one to die, while the survivors who just did gens and escaped climb...
If it were possible to account for how many survivors escaped, that'd be nice. However there is this problem that a player can die early and the result of the game has to play out, and at that point where do you stop tracking it?
The weighting for survivor emblems can be adjusted, maybe count your 2 highest emblems and double everything...
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I just wish players who regularly SoH and DC could be put into some low priority queue with each other or something. Seems a fitting punishing for wasting everyone else's time.
Played 20 games today, DC or SoH in straight up 10 of them. Honestly wouldn't care if they got banned for a week at this point. Just get them off the game.
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Of course MMR matters... it's totally not a measure of the strength for the perks, add-ons, items, killers, or playstyle you play...
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To give 10 relatively small little things I would like:
- Decimated Borgo to get some medieval sconses to light that map up a little. Dark is cool, but I can't see naff all... 😶
- Counterforce to be made a token perk, it forever annoys me it isn't. 😑
- Sabotuer to not go on cooldown if cancelled. Saboing a hook instead of healing the unhooked survivor is so annoying. 😬
- Pig to get her head trap back in the menus. Plz ;🐽;
- Lightborn to give immunity to the effects of blindness instead of immunity to being blinded. Allows perk interactions and synergies 🫣
- Xenomorphs tail swing slowdown on miss to go back to 2m/s. Never saw it working without the bug, and Xeno needs it 🪡
- Bubba's tantrum fix from 5s to 3s to be decoupled from his tantrum build up rate while revving. 3s only rev kills any chainsaw mind games and is such a pain. 🪚
- Shattered Hope to work like Fire Up for broken totems. It needs some reason to exist ☠️
- Toolbox sabotage speeds to be rejigged so that Commodius isn't the best sabo Toolbox after Alex's. It's the best repair one... give me a reason to use the others plz... 🧰
- Trapper traps and Hag traps to be removed from maps... it's just silly 🙄
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875668#Comment_3875668
It was never announced as a feature in that patch, it just randomly started happening. Pretty much since as far back as i can remember (around a bit before legion release) it has been this way that killers picking up survivors body blocked survivors.
Letting killers grab survivors from one side of the pallet or the other, to prevent pallet saves, but more importantly, it is the reason flashbang is so busted right now. Because a survivor can walk inside the killer and drop the flashbang even if the killer is facing the wall it will still blind them.
Fair play...
I only started playing May 2023, and I was probably just not astute enough to realise you could body block pallets in this way, so never tried, and have since becoming more aware just accepted you can't body block as fact xD
Kinda crazy how this one has not appeared on my radar before now xD
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@BorisDDAA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875689#Comment_3875689
Brother depipping does nothing. People used to mass dc on sight of old legion, skull merchant and other stuff which was basically every game. That being said 99% of people that give up in my survivor/killer games is because the match is already lost so there's no reason to drag it further which I agree with.
It's either that or start handing out hefty bans, or some other severe penalty.
Floor is open to ideas 😁 -
Hmmmm…. can only speak from my own perspective/preference as a SoloQ player… but I don't really want Kindred basekit for myself.
If we didn't have the HUD I'd be more inclined to agree, but I believe you can discern most information you need from the HUD, while still maintaining a degree of skill for survivor in reading and predicating allied behaviour. I find operating on imperfect information and reading the actions of my teammates of the HUD quite stimulating, and basekit Kindred would hamper that.
It's also drastically diminish the value of perks like Bond and Empathy, perks I rather like to build around sometimes, at having this aura gives me the same vibes as basekit Nowhere To Hide for killer. Fine as a perk that I've taken for its specific effect, but not something I want imposed upon me automatically.
While I see the argument, I would not be a fan personally.
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@Interrupt_Vector said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875689#Comment_3875689
Nooo my Rank that is completely useless and does nothing besides giving me a tiny amount of Bloodpoints once per month that I don't even need!
Hahahaha dead right... but.. that is the point the epidemic started...
A bit like a smiley face or a sad face being shown for speeding... it has a weird psychological effect on people 😅
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The real reason people give up on hook is they aren't enjoying the game, for whatever reason, and would rather prioritise and value their own enjoyment and time, and make the conscious decision to put themselves ahead of anyone else who is affected by that decision.
Sometimes people quit because opposing players are doing something completely obnoxious; other times (and often) it's because of shame at a bad play on their part or because of prejudice against a particular killer/loadout.
Its a slippery slope, cause obviously "fun" is entirely subjective, so taking the stance a player should be able to quit just cause they don't find something "fun" opens a can of worms where basically someone should be able to quit for literally any reason. "Survivor is wearing orange, and I don't like looking at orange". As asinine as this is, it satisfies the condition of "I'm not having fun", so it's a problematic point of view.
Regardless, the quit epidemic really kicked off when they removed depipping from the grading system and personally I believe depipping should be brought back for agregious cases of DCing and SoH.
- DC you lose a pip, derank if at 0 pips.
- If you reach DC tier 3, derank a tier regardless pips.
- Die within 3 minutes of the start of the match, lose a pip, derank if at 0 pips.
- Die within 3 minutes of the start of the match 3 times in a given time frame, lose a pip regardless of pips.
Innocents maybe caught from time to time, but anyone genuinely playing the game will very rarely fall afoul of these, and there is some argument to say, it's kind of fair enough to lose a rank in these scenarios anyway.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875668#Comment_3875668
…Huh. I didn't know about that bug, I don't think anyone's actually used it against me any time recently at least.
I think that is a bug because I'm also pretty sure I remember survivors running uselessly into me while I was picking up survivors, yeah. Glad we reached some common ground, at least! We can agree to disagree from there, I think.
To be fair I'm always quite paranoid about pallet saves cause I thought this was normal... So I can't really say for sure if this is still a thing or not either cause I don't tend to take the risk, and I can't think of a recent example where someone ran through me to do it xD
Aye, good discussion that man! 😁🤘
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875662#Comment_3875662
You keep saying you can't slug, but you can. You have 45 seconds, more than enough time to push one guy away.
A third survivor coming off gens only works if that gen is very close to the action, otherwise the travel time would be too long to get there before the pickup starts. Remember, you're not committing to chasing the first guy properly, just forcing them to run away for a second or two.
Weakly lingering nearby is not a deterrent to picking up, is the thing. The survivor actually has to be able to get a save in order to be a threat, so if they're not super close and you can put yourself between them and the pallet… just pick up. They can't do anything about it even if they run at you, they have to be able to get the pallet dropping prompt or have clear line of sight to blind you.
There have been plenty of times in the past where I see a survivor lingering nearby, I know they can't do anything, so I just pick up. They run at me, they fail to get the save, sometimes they drop the pallet anyway which is kinda funny, and the game moves on. Survivors just "being nearby" doesn't matter unless they can also get in position for a save in the time it takes for you to pick up a survivor.
Sometimes, sure, I get hit unexpectedly. It happens. You'll always be at risk of sometimes getting hit out of nowhere by a survivor you didn't see or that had a perk you didn't expect. If you do see them, though, knowing a survivor can pick themselves up after a long delay doesn't make pickups impossible at all.
I was confused by this because survivors can go through your hitbox... and the search for that led me to this:
@Reinami said:
- Platform: PC
- Description:
It used to be prior to the release of the unknown, that if a killer picked up a survivor, they still had collision with other survivors. This is creating several problems.
The killer can no longer pick up the survivor along one side of a pallet to try and block a pallet save, because the other survivor can just drop the pallet while inside the killer.
The bigger problem is with flashbangs. Even if the killer faces a wall, another survivor can drop a flashbang inside the killer, blinding them and dropping the survivor. Making flashbang completely uncounterable in this scenario.
- Steps to repro
- Down a survivor as the killer
- Pick up the survivor.
- Have another survivor run inside of the killer
- Observe that the survivor can walk through the killer
- How often does this occur
- 100% of the time.
I thought this was a feature... but maybe it's a bug? So your point has more validity.
I'm still veheremently against basekit Unbreakable, I feel a variation of basekit Tenacity to make it away from the site you are slugged at is the way to go to address aggressive slugging.
However with the context that's a bug, your suggestion at least makes more sense.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875659#Comment_3875659
Alright, let's tackle this hypothetical!
The first thing to note is, obviously, this is a very, very specific variation on the normal interaction you'd expect to see here because you've got two survivors lingering around, not one. That already colours this scenario and affects how we talk about it, both in the sense that it meaningfully changes the options and in the sense that it's much more of an academic hypothetical instead of a realistic expectation.
Now, from there, let's look at answering what the killer should be doing here. I'll start by noting that you specify "push away with an injury" but you really don't have to commit to an injury specifically, you just need the survivor to be a certain distance away from the slug. I can't give you hard numbers for that distance, but just far enough that they'd have to run behind you for a good few seconds to even catch up to you.
From there, we notice our third survivor lingering for the save. At this point, we should be realising that this suddenly isn't a gamble to pick this one survivor up, this is a gamble to get as much value out of the favourable position the survivors have handed us as possible. This is a very aggressive SWF, so we should be looking to capitalise on that confidence and altruism.
Let's say for the sake of argument that survivor 3 here is too close for us to pick up, which I'll note isn't guaranteed and then move on with the assumption. From here, we'll acknowledge that survivor 1 is pretty likely to pick themselves up; that's fine, we're already getting about as much out of this scenario as we would if we'd just hooked them straight away.
I can't give as much of a play by play here because there are a lot of ways this could go, but the basic idea is this: They're all intentionally grouping themselves around this one pallet, and one of them is going to be out of position at some point. If survivor 1 picks themselves up, you can down them again outside that pallet, and if survivors 2 or 3 run closer to you to try and get you away from the pallet, that brings them out of position.
You are not losing this exchange if a gen pops. One guy is doing gens and you're occupying three of the others, you will come out ahead here. The gens have been stalled pretty heavily and you still do get a hook out of this. You just have to be patient and capitalise on your opponents putting themselves out of position.
As a final note… this is not the default interaction that'll play out multiple times a match. Even the more realistic version of this where someone's downed under a pallet and a second survivor is lingering nearby isn't something that happens every game, getting an actual coordinated team that try to deny pickups in this specific way is significantly less common than that.
You're running with current DBD logic though. You're saying it isn't a common scenario, and you'd be right... in current DBD.
However if you make this change, this is now basekit, all survivors know about this basekit mechanic and their playstyles adapt to compensate, even in soloQ.
Whenever a killer gets a down, you only need 1 player nearby, 2 people on gens. 1 player nearby means the killer can't pick up and has to push them off. It's at this moment the third player comes off gens.
The point you keep missing is survivors do not have to do anything dangerous to stall you. Weakly lingering nearby is a strong enough deterrent to prevent you from picking up... and the reason this doesn't happen now is the survivors have a big risk that comes with it, because they can be slugged... in your variant they can't be slugged, there is no danger to playing this way... even if you somehow manage to slug all 3 of them... who cares? They have basekit Unbreakable, you probably can't even hook all 3 before one of them gets up even if you get a 3 man Bubba chainsaw.
Once the Unbreakable is up, they throw the pallet, and you have to chase again. If you manage to down them without them reaching a pallet, great... but if you don't... this scenario just repeats.
You've basically made it so that every down goes under pallet, and your actual hook is off the first survivor who comes to save. Hopefully you down them before the slugged survivor is back up so you can hook, because if you can't, this scenario just repeats.
If you can never advance your killer objective, it doesn't matter that only 1 survivor is on gens, because YOU CAN'T HOOK. This interaction happens again and again... you can't stop it, every interaction goes this way, cause there is simply no threat to survivors if you can't hook them.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875654#Comment_3875654
If you're playing a killer without lethality or mobility, and the survivor is healthy, you wouldn't be going for the down anyway in my experience. You'd be looking to harass them away, then pick up.
I have been bum rushed for saves by multiple survivors as low lethality killers. Oftentimes, they do get the save, but only because they're throwing the match to do it. You're describing a "bully squad" type situation, where all the team is nearby and trying to get saves, and it's not like they win matches against someone that's just a little patient.
For every other scenario, as an M1 killer, you'd just harass them away and loop back around to get the pickup while they're too far away to get to the other side of the loop. Nothing about my suggestions here would change that, it's the same situation that it'd always be.
They don't need to be that far away for them not to be able to get the save under normal conditions. Something like BGP would help, sure, but that's… what it's supposed to do. It's supposed to make saves possible in scenarios where they wouldn't otherwise be, that's the intent of bringing the perk. That's not really a flaw with this system so much as it is a perk existing that makes pickups difficult-but-not-impossible because the survivor going for the save is faster than normal. It still heavily depends on the pallet whether they can get all the way around it for the save, though— if the pallet's in a jungle gym or in shack, for example, there's no way they're getting all the way around it in time even with something like BGP or Sprint Burst.
There's always a risk, but this system doesn't really heighten that risk all that much, at least as far as I can see without testing. 45 seconds is enough time to harass someone away and get back to the slug— again, that works against current Unbreakable, and that's quicker than 45 seconds.
I've already highlighted that it's possible to stall a killer like this with current Unbreakable... it's already something that can completely swing the games momentum to the survivor side... but what you're opting for is being able to do this repeatedly.
So explain to me... you're an m1 killer, you've chased your first survivor, get your down under a pallet maybe after... 60s or so. You see someone going for a save, you push them off with an injury... great... took you what? Another 25s to get there, hit them and come back?
Can you pick up? No... someone else might be close, you've got to check, you see another survivor hovering nearby who has probably moved over after you've started your chase on the 2nd survivor, so you've got to push the 3rd off too. They have a good structure nearby and run to it, you ain't a dummy, you drop chase and come back within 10 seconds. First injured survivor is seen coming back so, you still can't pick up... what do you do?
Do you commit to them? Probably should, but now your slug is about to pop Unbreakable... you can't switch to the 3rd survivor, they're in safety... if you leave the downed survivor, you lose them, and if you go after the injured survivor you've got to reach them before the reach safety... if you can't... you have literally nothing.
You've lost this exchange, a gen has popped in the background from the 4th survivor, at least 1 more is well on it's way for progress, and you STILL don't even have a hook. What is your choice? What should you have done different?
In DBD current, this scenario is a one off, that can only happen if the first survivor has Unbreakable. This isn't a common occurrence because a lot of things have to align for it to happen. With your changes, this becomes the standard way this plays out. The survivors haven't really done anything, yet they've completely denied your hook by just standing around.
You acknowledge how game swinging this can be... but yet you want to make this a default interaction that happens every game, and multiple times in a game? That's busted dude... no matter how you slice it.
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Every once in a while you'll probably just eat a pallet stun because the survivors had a good setup, that's how it goes. I don't think survivors can engineer that at every pallet, though, not even close
But they can... you're ignoring Background Player, and even Sprint Burst. Maybe Fire Up can help, and Hex:Blood Favour (with all the usual hex problems), but it's still on survivors to screw it up… they can tag team the threat against you from mutual safety... I don't see why this problem is invisible to you...
Let me ask, have you ever played Ghost Face and been bum rushed by survivors for saves? Even you play this well, it still takes quite some time. You hold this opinion you can catch survivors trying to save really fast and still get your hook... how many seconds does the average down take through both health states as an m1 killer? 30s? 40s? 80s? How much time just to walk back to your down? Basically we're making it so the killer has to injure 3 survivors at least before they can even start trying to pick up? Ironically we're kinda forcing the killer to slug to prevent them from slugging... the only difference being the killer loses at the end…
I mean you do realise that for killers without high lethality, you're screwed right? Survivors can just do this over and over and over again and there is nothing you can do to stop it if you dont have an m2 killer. If you don't have a power that can down survivors quickly, your killer is fodder to pallet saves...
The complete inability to effectively slug in this scenario, means survivors can bully vast majority of m1 killers, they can literally tag team run back and forth and just the time it takes you to walk in a line behind them means you're losing your down, and probably getting little or nothing for it in return.
I agree with the sentiment of what you're trying to do, but this looks to me as someone who tends to play C and D tiers, like my hands are completely tied and I can only hope my opponents are idiots who don't know how to exploit this.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875645#Comment_3875645
That's why I uncoupled the recovery timer from the pickup timer, specifically because of survivors going down under a pallet.
If you're the killer in that scenario, you basically have two things you're gonna try and do, depending on context- and to be clear I mean right now, not with this hypothetical change, this is how survivors being slugged under a pallet works in the current state of the game.
The first thing you'd try and do is down the person lingering for a save, since that's an obvious snowball. If you have some kind of instadown, if the survivor's already injured, if you're confident in your ability to catch up and get a second hit, you'd want to down the first survivor. With my change, you'd just have a time limit to do that of 45 (or possibly longer, I'm not married to that number specifically) seconds to get the down, which might just push you towards option two as a worst case scenario.
The second thing you'd have as an option and, in my opinion, the far more common one, is just to push the lingering survivor far enough away that they can't get back in position for a save when you move to pick up. This already takes considerably less time than 45 seconds, so this one's basically unchanged.
In both scenarios here, knowing survivors can pick themselves up after a delay will affect your decisionmaking but won't meaningfully take that decision away, you still have two solid options depending on context.
As an aside, the reason that Unbreakable basekit was a problem on that PTB is because the self pickup perks were buffed, not the basekit feature itself. That feature gave you enough time to chase survivors away, or even secure a second down if you're in a position to. The problem was that Unbreakable itself made the self pickup extremely fast, alongside a few other tools. That PTB being the way it was is something I was heavily considering while I was drafting this post, I wanted to avoid the problems that cropped up there.
I'm sorry if I'm being stupid, but that is exactly the problem I'm describing... none of this works because of the fact the killer is on a time limit, and especially because of Background Player... but even if BGP wasn't there, it basically comes down to map structure.
The killer is on a time limit to pick up... a survivor nearby means they can't pick up, they MUST push them off, and if there is a decent tile nearby, like a TL wall or something, the saving survivor can effectively loop the killer while stayimg nearby to the slugged survivor.
We might think "oh we can push them off and mind game them vaulting and go for the pick up" (which is a gamble itself), but even if we pull it off, there is always the possibility of another survivor being there to make the save... and again this survivor doesn't have to play risky to get there, they can wait in safety for Unbreakable as a backup... and run in if needed, the killer doesn't have time to check... and this extra survivor can also come with their own BGP...
The mere fact this is possible means the killer can't pick up in this scenario, but they then can't slug either because of basekit Unbreakable... Of course, this can all happen already, but the difference is, it happens once... whereas if it's basekit survivors can employ this strategy at every single pallet, and do it over and over and over again...we now have a big problem....how do you stop 3 players swarming you?
The entire point of slugging is meant to be a means of forcing survivors to leave out of risk of giving the killer monster pressure if they manage to successfully slug 3 players trying to impede them. With basekit Unbreakable this can't happen, and survivors can continually bully killers around pallets with no method of stopping them other than a hex.
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The immediate problem I see is how do you circumvent the problem of survivors going down under a pallet?
The main reason why Unbreakable basekit was a problem is survivors didn't have to get to the survivor to save them, they could hover in relative safety and basically put Killers in a situation where they can't pick up just by being nearby. This means instead of moving to save the survivor, they merely have to stall the killer long enough for them to use Unbreakable, and there is nothing here I can see to prevent that issue.
I don't think you can solve the aggressive slugging problem with Unbreakable period. It's effect is too much of a counter to genuine instances where the Killer is forced to slug, and most instances of slugging are the result of survivors allowing it to happen as part of normal gameplay.
The actual issue of aggressive slugging to my mind is survivors move at 0.7m/s and can't get apart efficiently after being slugged.
As an example, if you get slugged under hook for example, you're under hook, you can't move away quickly to get to a position to be saved. It's also the same if say killer catches a survivor trying to save.
This isn't an element of the game I feel should be removed (if you get slugged under hook or slugged trying for a save, that's on you and you should be punished), however this same issue is the same for aggressive slugging. Survivors can't get to places other survivors can reasonably save them effectively, the killer can slug and slug and slug, and keep returning to the places a survivor was last at, until enough mistakes are made/resources are burnt to eventually get everyone.
To my mind, the way you stop aggressive slugging, is you make it so survivors CAN slip away to a place of relative safety, where they aren't easy to track down and slug again, where they can effectively reset.
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I'm not gonna lie... as much as I try to resolve Vader being in DBD... I just can't.
It feels wrong, and I'm trying to get my emotions out of the way and be logical, but every fibre of my brain interrupts by screaming "no!" and can't produce a rational thought.
The best I can muster is Star Wars is just completely devoid of horror in the main films... when put in a line of NoES, TCM, Child's Play, Halloween, Alien and Scream it feels off…
It doesn't help that Star Wars as an IP has been utterly crapped up the wall to the point I just get triggered whenever I see it... it's like a aneurysm enducing poison cloud that follows me everywhere I go and can strike at any time...
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@Lixadonna said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875155#Comment_3875155
Haha. Sometimes while hanging out on Discord we are all playing or doing different things. My scream scared everyone on the call and they were all wondering what made me scream. I needed to compose myself before trying to explain to them DBD things.
10/10, would sacrifice my pride again xD
The Alien Facehugger also gets me time to time... I know that its there, and it still messes me up on occasion... Even as killer xD ;🐽;
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I know the exact one you mean, cause I cacked my draws too... nearly dropped my damn controller xD
I was facing a Dredge as well, so I proper bricked it and spent the next 10 seconds swearing repeatedly to myself as I tried to calm back down again on my way to shack gen xD
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Interesting read!
It does seem to be a common trend that a lot of Asyms seem to give mechanics to fight the killer head on, whereas DBDs "fight back" is stalling for time and running away more effectively... and that's a very different idea that a lot of other asyms fall down at.
Hope your new line of work is going well! 😁
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So what you're telling me... is the flashbang working from inside killer model and all the weird occlusion on audio things is not an issue of the flashbang... but because the camera is in the wrong place?
Doesn't this also screw up flashlight ranges?
How interesting 🤔🤔🤔🤔
I want to test this in a custom game...
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@AetherBytes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875091#Comment_3875091
"He is amazing at tunneling with cages"
Brother he can't even ######### see where you end up, and it's guaranteed to be across the map. Half the time they're immedietly yoinked and healed before you can make it halfway to the rescue notif.
Just wanna point out that I've seen experienced Pyramid Head Mains able to predict with scary accuracy where survivors will appear in cages... and the thing is, he doesn't need to even be that accurate, he just needs to have a rough idea, and the notification will do the work for him...
Remember cages do not activate any abilities or perks to prevent tunneling. No BT, no OTR, no DS, no DH, no We'll Make It, No Resurgence. I haven't seen if StB works against it, but I am 99% sure that doesn't work either.
The point is... Pyramid Head played at max sweat, is a very nasty killer and a GOAT tunneler... I will admit I rarely see a PH playing that way, they're a bit like old Billy's, they usually just wanna have fun and get some sick hits...
Typically players who want to play hard ball will likely play Blight or Spirit so they can't get beaten on map pressure (which PH is vulnerable to)... but PH absolutely can be a utter pain train when he wants to be... 😶😶😶
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@AetherBytes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875086#Comment_3875086
Throw fire up in that last slot when the freddy rework comes out. I know it sounds redundant with brutal, but trust me, pallets basically disintegrate when you so much as look at them with the buffed fire up + brutal. You can literally damage generators in one hit, rather than the usual 2, the animation is so fast.
Fire Up seems like it'll be really solid on Xeno to be fair... since you also have that base vault speed... no matter if its a pallet or a window.... the train is coming... ######### Choo Choo xD
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I like it!
I tend to find with Xeno that it's quite hard to play certain small tiles that you can't quite lop your tail over for a hit due to clutter. It's very hard to mind game sometimes because your face is so low to the ground, and you are so big (tall when atood up, and long when crawling) the survivor can often see you at tiles, when you can't see them. If you run them down and guess the survivor will drop pallet, then you go for a tail swing but they don't throw and juke... if you miss (which is quite easy), you lose so much distance you basically reset back to complete neutral... 😒
It's times like this where just you have to just knuckle up and eat the pallet... I can see this being useful... it's a shame the blood iri is such a tight time limit 😒😁
A build I often like for pallet breaking is:
- Game Afoot
- Nemesis/Friends Til the End
- Brutal Strength
- 4th perk is completely optional, though Zanshin might be nice
You have Game Afoot to give you an obsession on the m1 and the haste. If you cant gwt the m1, you can eat a pallet to get it instead via Nemesis. Or if ypure good with m2s use FttE and get it off hooks.
You become the Juggernaut... barely slowndown at all and make Survivors regret ever throwing pallets 😁
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@wakesafe said:
I’ve heard this name a couple times now so I just checked one of his Twitch vods to see how he plays.
The first match I skip to he sees two Survivors, chases one off and then goes for a pick up on a pallet and to nobody’s surprise they get the pallet save. And then complains that’s why you should slug? Who would even pick that up knowing you saw another survivor seconds ago?
Genuinely curious why you listen to the opinions of people who don’t even have Killer basics down? Is he someone you would consider a “competitive Killer”?
If someone has what seems to be a well constructed argument that lines up with your own observations in other games, it is a debate worth exploring is it not?
From.points others have expressed as part of this discussion, this individual does seem to have a rather poor reputation that leads the validity of their point into question...
However the point he's making is not automatically wrong because of it, and I do agree with him that a common thread of a lot of failing asym games is the killer side tends to become very unrewarding to play and subject to bullying, drastically reducing their power in the supposed power role.
I do feel his point is relevant when we keep getting threads flooding the forums demanding basekit Unbreakable, despite how God awful a suggestion that is.
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@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874898#Comment_3874898
If this game was better designed, there wouldn't be any need for a bunch of restrictions. Unfortunately, this game allows killers to incapacitate survivors and bleed them out for minutes at a time.
If the devs added a mechanic that disabled the killer's ability to move for four minutes, would you be in favour of that, even if it was balanced somehow? Would you support taking away that freedom from survivors? I'd hope so, as any mechanic that stops people from playing the game is awful.
If this game was better designed, there wouldn't be any need for a bunch of restrictions.
Urgh, I hate this lazy, generic, ambiguous, buzzword of a line so much. There are reasons why things are the way they are, and so many people throw out this phrase whenever talking about something they don't like to give their point gusto, when in reality there is no tangible assessment of what makes it "bad design".
If the devs added a mechanic that disabled the killer's ability to move for four minutes, would you be in favour of that, even if it was balanced somehow?
No of course not, that's why I have acknowledged the issue of excessive slugging in many threads, including this one. That lack of player agency for survivors when excessively slugging is a problem. However there is a reason why slugging exists, and that is because survivors are meant to scatter when a killer turns up on them, it's to ensure there is an appropriate risk involved when trying for saves. The 4 minute timer is a means of making is LESS efficient to slug the whole team compared to hooking.
The Unbreakable PTB demonstrated this perfectly, where the "risk" of sticking around to save became completely moot by virtue of the fact there was no need to get past the killer to actually pick up a teammate. The risk was drastically reduced because all survivors had to do was stall long enough from safety.
Just because this problem of lack of survivor agency while slugged exists is no reason to nuke the ability to slug completely from orbit. There has to be a risk associated with survivors being caught in pairs and sticking around for saves.
I hear so many people harp on about "bad design", while simultaneously proposing absolutely dire suggestions that keeps putting more and more shackles on the Killer where the "design" is so much much worse.
I made a suggestion to address the lack of player agency for Survivor, while not nuking the Killers agency either, thisi s the point I'm striving for, being careful not to put in aggressive solutions to things that tie the killers hands behind their back.
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@TieBreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874880#Comment_3874880
It's true that this game keeps going because of how much variety can exist in a single match. But there needs to be limitations on certain things. For people that don't play survivor, it's easy to say that being slugged or camped to death is fine, as there's no time where the killer is unable to play. That's a problem that is exclusive to the role of survivor.
Anti slug needs to be there, as nobody should be in a match, whilst not being able to do anything for minutes at a time. It's awful design. It's also too strong as a griefing tool. But fixing that requires changing things like pallet saves. Which are a core part of how the gameplay loop works.
Tunneling is somewhat easier. Make it harder to tunnel someone out until a couple of gens are done, or until a few minutes have passed since the match began, and then deactivate that system. That way nobody is forced out of the match straight away, and play variety still exists. Then gives killers better tools to find and down new survivors.
The problem for this game, is that it has been out for a very long time. Players know how to exploit the game thoroughly, and there are many massive design flaws that the game has never addressed, and has simply chosen to sell perks to fix. If BHVR wants to make real changes to the game, they will have to rework all that content that has been sold for years now. I just don't see that happening.
Tunneling is somewhat easier. Make it harder to tunnel someone out until a couple of gens are done, or until a few minutes have passed since the match began, and then deactivate that system.
But do you not see you are literally satisfying the exact point being made... you're imposing limits that remove killer choice, and the more you slice away at that, the less of a player the killer is and the more of a performing chimp that must adhere to the shackles the game becomes.
There are numerous mechanics to combat tunneling in the game already, if you start imposing some arbitrary system that prevents it completely, then survivors can unhook for free without having to think about what the killer might do.
For slugging I do agree that it has more problems. My suggestion has always been to be ablento enter "Desperation" once above 95% recovery:
- Bleedout 75% faster
- Make 50% louder grunts of pain
- Move 50% faster
This doesn't remove slugging, it doesn't remove killer agency, but it adds more agency to survivors, which should be the goal. This would be a change I would welcome. However when people say stuff like "basekit Unbreakable", then we really start to have problems.
This is the entire point being made in the video and my OP, you can't keep placing arbitrary shackles on the killer role, it is a poison pill that seems to keep killing asym games.
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@TieBreaker said:
Listening to him say that limiting killer agency will kill the game, whilst he's playing slug only, made me cringe somewhat.
I do of course disagree with that playstyle, this "slugging is better because bleh mechanic" is more of a protest to the hook timer increase to my mind and a case of kicking toys out of the pram.
There is no instance I can think of that slugging is more viable than hooking. Any killer that is strong enough to full team slug, can also full team hook.
The point is still quite strong when you look at the dev lifetimes of other games, and in a lot of ways if you look at AFC, A3G and such, while I dont think these things are a problem and were good additions, if a pattern starts to form and these things continue, Choy wouldn't be wrong to think DBD is going a similar route.
In that context, his actions make a degree of sense, even if I do disagree with them.
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I dunno... I've heard veterans say this a lot... but as someone who took a very keen interest in the history of Dead By Daylight, all the things people cite and complain about as things being "unfun" in modern DBD, don't look like they were any less doable back in the day, and often were even more exploitable.
For example I hear people talk about: -
- AFC does nothing, killers just proxy camp... and yet Bubba face camping people under hook is apparently fondly remembered and better state of the game?
- Killers constantly tunnel off hook... and yet old Borrowed Time was hard meta that everyone took because it was so common.
- Killers constantly slug the whole team to death... and yet the old version of DS required killers to juggle if they were close enough to hook or leave survivors slugged.
- The Finisher Mori is so obnoxious, I hate having to watch moris as the killer rubs it in my face... and yet old moris could literally kill you on your first down.
- Modern flashlights take no skill, the old version you had to time it... and yet old flashlights had the add-ons to insta-blind the killer effortlessly even if they were walking.
- Survivors have so many second chance perks that are incredibly unfair to have to chew through... and yet in conjunctions with numerous infinites littering the game, survivors also had old Dead Hard where even if they made a mistake on said infinite, they could push a button and gain that mistake back.
- SBMM is plain broken, it doesn't work pairing newbies with veterans, and encourages sweaty play; the old grade system was so much better... except at the start of each season 10hr players would be thrown in with 5000+ players until they made it up the ranks, and players would crunch teams hard with broken strats until they reached top grade, and you only need to look at a single PTB to see how this goes.
Like... this is only a fraction of things from the history of DBD,and I honestly can't see how veterans can look at old DBD and think all of this unbelievably unfair BS somehow makes the game better or more fun...
Even if I'm being super generous... the only way I can see these mechanics as fun is because you're too busy laughing hard at the players (who don't know about/dont have a means to handle these things), that you are freely slam dunking hard into the tarmac to care how broken stuff is...
I've heard people like Coconuts talk about how DBD was better as a wild west, and when you break down the language carefully it basically amounted to "yes OP stuff is annoying to face, but it wasn't every game, and there were games where your OP stuff got to shine". Basically the medicine to getting dunked on was dunking on someone yourself... 😒
NGL... as post 6.1.0 baby, this sounds absolutely awful to me.