Tsulan
Tsulan
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- Tsulan
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@miniwengsel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3370273#Comment_3370273
Its not hard to understand, but the game isnt balanced arround that. Somtimes you can three hook everyone, but most of the times you cant and if you try you lose very hard. Both sights want to win and saying that every killer should 12 hook every game is just entiteld. 12 hook everyone every game would be like do all seven gens as survivor. I never see some survivors 99% the last three gens, befor they finish one. It just makes no sence to do a survivor. Also it doesnt make sence to go for 12 hooks every game, if you dont get anything for it. If there was a system, that gives me slowdown for hooking differend survivors I will go for 12 hooks, but if I cant, because strong items or something I will try to win as hard as I can like the survivors will do.
Thats exactly the Point.
The game isn´t balanced around that, but people get mad, when killers don´t play according to made up rules.
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Your Teammates don´t try to kill you every match.
Sometimes they just are:
- afk
- trying to get the unhook yourself achievement without Deliverance
- doing a archives challenge to escape through the hatch
- having connection problems
- guarding that pallet at the other end of the map
- having problems hitting that skill check while drinking and eating
- having a nap
- trying to kill you because you´re solo
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Survivors want 12 hook matches without hooking the same 1 or 2 or 3 persons in a row while also doing everything possible to prevent that.
Is that so hard to understand?!
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Bond (i never play without it), Prove Thyself, CoH and SB.
But i´ll take everything except Bond out, if i have a challenge.
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Old Freddy with QoL buffs.
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@Dennis_van_eijk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3369715#Comment_3369715
Something they should have never said because after that disconnects were being abused to get spirit nerfed twice, then nurse and i might have missed a few.
I don't mind if developers are open, but some things they need to keep to themselves.
Neither the nerf, nor the statement should have happened because of that. But well, the devs didn´t knew back then, what effect this could have.
And yes, people still try really hard to justify getting something nerfed, by disconnecting/suiciding.
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And out of that amount of matches, how often were your teammates utterly useless and even killed you?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367974#Comment_3367974
So one example from, what, six years ago?
A documented example, with the devs confirming that they only nerfed him, because so many people disconnected.
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Ahh a sneaky "nerf 3 gens" threat.
Which seems to be the last line of defense killers currently have. I doubt the devs would go through with this, especially after releasing THE 3 gen killer.
But good luck.
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366897#Comment_3366897
But there is no real game like that, right? So why do you bring it up?
Chess isn´t a game?
Anyway, we´re are getting kinda off topic here.
As this was about balance decisions and Onryo not getting any buffs, despite her heavy addon reliance. Because the devs don´t look at hooks but only at kills.
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I mean... Freddy was nerfed one week after his release. Solely because survivors mass disconnected against him during a free weekend.
Back then there was no dc penalty.
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One is a game breaking bug, the other isn´t.
Audio bugs seem to have a lower priority. Killers have had audio bugs for a very long time.
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@Ch0mp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366897#Comment_3366897
But eliminating the opposing team's players *is* the goal in dead by daylight. As such, playing better is eliminating more of the enemy team.
But the players left aren´t bound to be the more skilled ones.
I´ve seen survivors lead the killer to their teammates. Intentionally or accidentally. Themselves going down in under 10 seconds, while the other survivors could keep the killer busy for over a minute.
Or survivors that hide thought the match and do nothing. Like literally, yesterday i saw a stream of Hens333. Where the other 2 survivors did absolutely nothing while he looped the killer for ages. There was only 1 gen left and they just did nothing.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366889#Comment_3366889
I'd argue by sheer numbers the majority of those doing this would have to be killer mains.
You would be surprised how many people play both sides, are toxic on one side and then switch to be toxic on the other side.
So no, the majority aren´t "mains". Just toxic people.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366938#Comment_3366938
With some modifications. I was really surprised when the mori updates WIP was some strange sudden death mechanic. I had thought that the mori would start playing the instance the survivors had no conceivable way of winning, ie everyone slugged and no one got any unbreakables anymore or 1st hook stages left, so that the killer couldn't just keep them slugged for 4min. But the free unbreakable for everyone was way, way too stressful for the killer imho to be a real future option.
What i was surprised about was, how Moris where still considered toxic on the dev stream, when they were already reduced to a different death hook animation. Moris look cool and i think the devs could offer alternative moris, just like in the mobile version. Which would sell like hot pancakes. But not, when the killer has to spend bloodpoints and waste an offering for it.
I´d love to have random 5-6 moris for each killer and apply them at the death hook of each survivor. I´d watch all of them. Feels more natural than what we have now, or how the mori test went.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366906#Comment_3366906
That you have at least option push the survivors out. I think situation what OP is decribing is lot more disgusting behaviour. That is probably done by people with problems in real life and they take it on game. I could never do that it's just toxic and killers only do it to make you to feel bad. The gate situations yes is annoying but that just wastes time I usually just go take a break and they can keep waiting or I push them out. I don't either wait at gate as survivor unless my teammates are still there needing help so ofcourse I take hit for them if I can.
Oh i absolutely agree. Yes, the killer has the option to kick the survivors out. But, he should have to. Since in order to kick them out he gets bm at the exit gate. There are even people that justify this behavior with "but the killer should be thankful for the extra bonus points for kicking them out". Is the same as "the survivor should be grateful for the extra struggle free bonus points".
Both things are bm. Tolerating one while condemning the other just seems like double standards to me.
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@Laluzi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367226#Comment_3367226
I think that's giving them too much credit. This is the same team that didn't see anything wrong with a perk that caused the unhooker to run off at light speed for six seconds, or OG Circle of Healing, and the one that thought making Calm Spirit slow down actions and Pharmacy only work when injured were somehow buffs to the perks. I think they're just severely out of touch with average gameplay and don't have a good sense for how things interact with each other, so they frequently make changes or new introductions that everyone knows will be awful, but rarely heed the playerbase's warnings until they're backed up by three months of data.
And I think that when they release killers like this, they get so caught up in 'think of all the cool, creative ways people could use this power!' that they get blindsided by the dominant strategy when it comes - mass camping and slugging with Twins, aggressive 3-genning with Knight and Bone Zone. Simple and effective will always triumph over risky and flashy.
Then i don´t really understand why they keep giving us killers like that. Or what the general process of thought is.
I mean, Twins would have been a perfect co-op killer. Killers could finally play with a friend. It would have been a success, just because we don´t have something like that.
Knight players would definetly use the power more in chases IF the guards would be actually able to hit a survivor in a chase. But since they only serve to lockdown areas and survivors usually outrun even the fastest one... they are just used for that.
To me it just seems like 2 different teams work on the same killer. Like, for example one team designed the knights power and another how said power is seen by the survivors. Deploying the power feels like Spirits phase walk. But the release (now changed) version of the power was a disco ball that survivors can easily see and avoid.
Or Onryos teleporting, that has a cd of 100 seconds before the tv turns on again. While the addons take 6 seconds off that cd and the cd isn´t mentioned in the power description ingame? Then the next chapter Dredge was released who could teleport as often as he wants. The design decisions just feel weird.
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@Laluzi now that i thought a little longer about it. Maybe they really want to incentivise survivors to use Potential Energy and Deja Vu.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367183#Comment_3367183
Do you think its a test? bHVR is trying to see if Survivors can adapt to these two new types of killers.
Knight and Skull merchant.
I hope someone from bHVR comes by and gives an answer on what they are thinking about it.
Maybe we get a solution in the next chapters. Some perk that helps with 3 gens. Or the devs want to incentivise survivors to use Potential Energy and Deja Vu.
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@Laluzi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367174#Comment_3367174
Deja Vu is useless. Knowing where the 3-gen is doesn't help because she can and will just pick it and hard defend it from the start of the game. Had that happen in my last game, where I tried to bust the center gen by slipping behind a badly placed drone. Once she figured out I was there, she went ham on patrolling and eventually trapped me in the temple basement for an easy tunnel out. Potential Energy would be more helpful, but without a coordinated team, you're still going to get your ass handed to you by the combination of drones, CoB, and Overcharge.
Well then we´ll probably see something in the next 1 or 2 chapters. Based on how popular she is.
Honestly, i don´t know what to think about this chapter. As everything seems aimed towards making everyone play in SWF:
- perks for SWF
- 2 new survivors that talk with each other in the lobby
- killer that seems unbeatable for solos
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On a more serious note. Making her THE 3 gen killer per se, was obviously a design choice. Now in regard of why...
Maybe their solution to tunneling complaints. Since no one is complaining about tunneling right now. So yeah, great success!
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The solution will come in the next chapter!
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"look at them, they´ll take ages to find out what we´re saying"
Or something like that.
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They will probably not nerf her. Since the 3 genning must have been a design choice.
Now what to do against her? Well, if she becomes popular, Deja Vu might also become popular.
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As boring as it sounds, they will probably keep her that way. Making her a 3 gen killer. No, THE 3 gen killer. This was obviously a design choice.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366889#Comment_3366889
Tsulan once again on his way to villainize Survivors even if the situation mentioned by OP can only be done by Killers.
Classic.
Us vs them
Us vs them
Us vs them
Don´t you get tired of this?
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@Emeal said:
All of this would be resolved by the Mori Update.
Pretty much! Instant solution to the whole problem.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366906#Comment_3366906
I don't care about the "us vs them" arguments. I care that my time was wasted by someone who decided to be a toxic troll for absolutely no reason at all. If things like this didn't happen in the game you'd have less people coming here complaining about it. And no this is nothing like survivors waiting until the last second to escape. You can easily go to the exit gate and hit them out. What I described in my OP was killer players being toxic for the sake of being toxic and the survivor having no power over the situation.
See, and this is the problem why nothing will change for both sides. Since neither one will see the wrong in their doing.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366896#Comment_3366896
Again, you're posting for the sake of posting and ignoring the point made. Why do you care and why does it matter? It is completely irrelevant to the point I made. Its a problem with killer players including killer mains. Now are you going to make another irrelevant post asking the same thing knowing full well the point of the post or do you get it now?
Its not irrelevant. Its fueling the us vs them menthality many people have here on the forum.
On the topic, its the same thing as waiting until the last second to leave. I lost track of how often survivors spend the full countdown waiting at the gate. Both situations are a pure waste of time for both sides and shouldn´t happen.
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3365708#Comment_3365708
No? I dont understand your comparison. From my viewpoint, it makes no sense. Can you elaborate?
Its not the team that plays better. But the team with the most players left on the field that "wins".
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366889#Comment_3366889
Completely irrelevant to the post and point I made... It literally applies to anyone doing it.
Then why does the title say "killer mains, please stop this"?
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What makes you think that only killer mains do this?
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Yeah thats pretty much every killer mains experience, when they try survivor. Next thing you´ll notice is, that your teammates are a bigger threat than killers. Thats why many start to play with friends.
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The CD of turned off TVs also is way to long with 100 seconds on basekit. Especially when she wants to travel between the TVs. Comparing that to the Dredges ability to constantly teleport, seems like a weird design choice.
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The black Tar addon shouldn´t make the traps darker, but instead partly cover them with map specific rubbish. So the traps do actually blend in. Which would allow for better placement.
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3365120#Comment_3365120
But thats almost never the case. For example in sports wins always the team with the better score. If you shoot a skillful goal it only rewards you with one point, if a team plays defensive and wins by buying time its still a win.
Maybe the definition of skill is different. Its not about which one has the most difficult skill. Camping is also an skill, even if its easy acquired. And in the game its not important who has the most difficult skill, its important which one has the skill most suitable to get kills.
So im not saying the current meta is great, but camping should be nerfed instead of changing the win condition.
To keep it in sports, the comparision would be more that the team wins, which has less people eliminated due to injuries or red cards.
Doesn´t sound fun to me.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3365120#Comment_3365120
How do you separate out those killers? Serious question.
This all comes down to "how do you evaluate skill?" And it's an impossible question to answer.
Kill/escapes rates ARE a measure of skill, via proxy, because the higher skilled you are, the more likely you are to kill/escape. It's the only objective measure available, all others are subjective.
The same way Emblems were assigned. (almost) All Hooks = kills, barely points in chaser and malicious, afk timer procced, proximity to hook procced, etc.
Same for afk survivors/suiciders on first hook. System checks if the other survivors are alive (not slugged) and if the survivor intended a kobe + failed the 2 skill checks.
If those players get marked for playing like this an X amount of matches, they get matched against each other. Once they start playing normal, also X amount of matches they get back into the normal queue.
But just surviving isn´t = skill. I´ve seen survivors escape with half the points the dead survivors had. They were doing nothing during the whole match and just jumped from one locker to another. Thats not skill for me. Every system we had in place to rank up, would depip that player. But with the "skill" based mmr, its suddenly considered skillful?
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364676#Comment_3364676
Sure, players can manipulate the system either way.
But the key thing here is that those manipulating the system based on kills/escapes, aren't doing so AND winning at the same time. They're choosing to forfeit the game to tank their MMR, instead of getting everything handed to them while the opposing side has a bad time all-round.
What happens if the survivors do well, but then either give themselves up or make a bad endgame play (the latter is entirely fair and indistinguishable form the former btw)? The killer gets a good game.
What happens if the killer does really well, but then lets survivors go or makes a bad endgame play? The survivors get a good game and get their escape.
With "skill" based metrics: What happens if a killer tanks their MMR by camping/tunnelling? Survivors get a bad game, lose BP, lose MMR, get stuck with camping killers indefinitely, everyone loses but the killer who decided to play that way. What happens if survivors play immersed and do nothing to tank their MMR? Everyone loses, killer and the other survivors.
Thats why those extremely low skill based playstyles (basement Bubbas and afk survivors) should have a different queue. Where they are matched with each other until they start playing "normal" again.
Playing skillful during the rest of the match but dying at the end, should rise the mmr. Just as it should with 8 hook killers that get no kill. They both should increase their mmr (even when "losing" by not escaping/killing). Simply because the mmr is supposed to be Skill based. Not escape/kill based mmr.
Since then skilled players get matched against skilled players and afk players that try to tank their mmr instead of playing on their level, will end up with other players that tried to tank their mmr.
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Obviously to buff SWF.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364633#Comment_3364633
No?
Killing and escaping IS the win condition.
What else is there to go by? That is the GOAL of the trial. You removing killing and escaping as the win condition and suddenly everyone plays like potatoes and doesn't bother to do their objectives. Killers end up forcing you to farm every game and everyone is stuck with trolls every single match, which all take 20-30 minutes to finish because everyone who farms is so damn slow, standing over gens emoting instead of just rushing them out.
You are playing Dead By Daylight, not a farming sim.
If you win the game, by defeating your opponent, your MMR should increase, so that you get opponents to who not so easy to defeat. That's literally the purpose of EVERY MMR system in existence.
"Just make it based on skill, easy!"
You cannot define skill in this game. It's impossible. There are too many different playstyles, and different factors to accommodate for. Do you have to be proficient in flashlight saves, 360s and looping? What about stealth? How about gen efficiency? How do you quantify these things?
Pips and emblem progress are only an approximate of skill, and ONLY when everyone is playing to win. You throw in the prospect of farming into the mix and it all falls apart.
What if you just like farming bloodpoints with farming killers and score a ton of pips that way, even though you actually suck at the game?
Plus, if you do everything right, if you play as skillfully as possible, if you score as many BP as you possible can and secure a double pip, but you still die. Why the feck would you want your MMR to increase?! You're already going against killers who you can't beat, even though you're literally doing your best, and you want to go against tougher killers who beat you even harder?
You quantify skill by match results. By kill and escape rates.
If you are more skilled, you are more likely to survive the trial, as an average over the course of many many games. The more RNG there is the larger the sample size needed to define the average, and DBD has a ton of RNG, but it gets there eventually.
You´re are just describing the issue with the current system. Someone could farm points and die on purpose/let survivors escape to prevent increasing the mmr.
Doing something is progressing the match and therefore should be taken into account for the mmr. Finishing gens and getting unhooks IS progressing the match. Its not fooling around and doing nothing, like someone who just hides the whole match, does nothing and escapes.
For example, yesterday i had a match where the survivors were clearly superior to the killer. Then the gates were powered and only i escaped, because the other 3 refused to leave. Probably to tank their mmr. Points wise they would have ranked up. But since they died, they lowered their rank.
So basing it solely on kills/escapes can be manipulated to easy. Also, someone who afks or does nothing, would end up in the same bracked as the basement Bubba until both change their playstyle. Which would improve the game experience for everyone else.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363563#Comment_3363563
But that was a win. You won the game, and the survivors lost.
This is why it HAS to be this way, otherwise you get games where the killers win the game, the survivors lose the game, everyone's MMR goes down, and nobody gets anywhere. The killer who's using cheap tactics for easy wins is getting lower and lower, and facing lower skilled survivors, for easier games, and making it impossible for those survivors to win any games. Low MMR brackets would be nothing but camping and tunnelling. This is what campers and tunnellers want. They want noobs to wreck.
On the other side, you could lose the game, you could lose every game, but you could do a bit of everything, score 2 gens, 2 unhooks, 2 heals, a few chases, but still get killed due to some endgame build, and your MMR would go up. You'd keep losing games, but still keep facing tougher and tougher opponents, and basically never win a game, ever.
This is exactly what happened under the old ranking system. Discounting to 5-10 days after reset where the game was an unplayable mess because everyone was rank 20 and playing as sweaty as possible, I would eventually climb to about rank 5 at which point I would get stuck. At rank 5 I would face opponents I had no right to be facing. Constantly sweaty SWFs, constant Nurses and Blights, because I was on the edge of the Rank 1 and general Red rank catchment. I couldn't climb any higher, because I didn't stand a chance against my opponents, and I couldn't lose rank, because I was still scoring BP and making emblem progress, keeping me stationary. Stuck in purgatory. I basically had about 10 days a month where I could comfortably play the game, between the reset rush and reaching SWF hell.
Again: MMR is not a prize. It's not something you are awarded with for playing well. It is an entirely neutral process that involves putting players together who are equally likely to win.
This whole collective idea that MMR is something you need to increase, that it's a goal to reach higher MMR is an absolute myopic misunderstanding of the system. MMR is not the goal. Pips still function the same way they always did, and if you want a goal to strive for, it's reaching top grade for that monthly bonus. That doesn't involve camping and tunnelling or cheap tactics for easy wins. That involves playing well in general.
The problem is that killing or escaping is seen as win. When its just more bloodpoints. Someone who did 2 gens, 2 unhooks, heals, etc. Should get their mmr increased. Even when dying. Because they contributed to the match.
A basement Bubba should depip for not doing anything during the match. Maybe an alternative to increasing or decreasing the mmr would be more suited. Like matching that player with players that do the same. Aka stay a lot afk/suicide on first hook/dc often.
No system is perfect. But decupling kills escapes from the mmr and just base it on actual skill would be fairer than what we have now.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363850#Comment_3363850
It was 100% on survivor first hour after the killer release and then went back on killer. Seems like people tried her one game and then gave up...
Which is sad. I miss the times, when a new killer released and you would see that killer almost every match for the next 2 weeks.
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@Rudjohns said:
I played against the Merchant 3 games in a row
All of them were protecting a 3-gen from the get go
All 4k
That was predictable. Only viable playstyle with her and kinda boring tbh.
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So... in order to fight camping and tunneling, they nerfed a perk that encourages staying away from the hook and going for a different target.
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I´ll tell you once i face her.
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@Gamall said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363850#Comment_3363850
It's 100% on surv in my case from the release indeed.
Not here.
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I mean... killer bonus is at 100% at the release of a new chapter.
Shouldn´t it be... you know... be at 100% survivor? Since everyone wants to try the new killer?
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@Gamall said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363775#Comment_3363775
I think that in the next hotfix everything will be fixed, it is unthinkable that perks become unusable because of ridiculous mechanics.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363790#Comment_3363790
It was not even mentioned in the 'known issues' so I doubt it is a bug at this point
Then why do you call it a bug?
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@Gamall said:
"Continuing nerf killers"
Spirit has currently been buggy for a month and is unplayable against but ok
Do you consider a bug a buff?
Like... really?
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@Peanits said:
Our offices are just desks and conference rooms and a cafeteria, my dude. It's not an evil lair. We don't have even one excessively tall arm chair with an angry looking cat we cat pet while laughing maniacally.
In reality, nobody who spends 8 hours a day working on a game wants people to be upset about something, but things take time. Game devs aren't the super villains you want them to be.
You mean... you don´t look like this?!
