Trollinmon
Trollinmon
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MM can't work if skilled players can't beat weaker ones. Skillful play as a soloq survivor is not impactful enough to carry games without resorting to playing lonewolf. Outside this the only real issue is how effective camping
is and also looks like we were hinted a status icon to notify players the killer is near hook.My thoughts on MM as a soloq player
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiR_jJn3o2IEdit: Thought it was from PTB but was a leaks discord
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@m4x1m_000 said:
Yeah, I know the solo q pain when not a single gen will be done until you touch it after you looped killer, it is a base. But PTB changes will make solo q even more hard than it is now because players will not learn just like they don’t learn now.
What should happen with soloq is the changes reward skillful plays more now. That should make running the killer more valuable helping runners win more games. MM can't really work if I have a sub 20% win rate when I run the killer for more than 5+ mins a down. The players that can't adapt should tank games while players that do should, ideally, rise. Might not pan out that way but I'm full of hopium that soloq won't be so a$$.
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Demo-Black Heart
I'm a ultra rare breed of Demo that doesn't run stbfl. Black heart helps make the heavy m2 playstyle feel more smooth.
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@TigerSnake said:
If the changes went through as is, it would probably see more play for the sole reason that there’s nothing better to use.
I could see pop+Eruption being solid. Not that terrible of a combo and would give decent regression if you are going for that 12 hook playstyle.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3389218#Comment_3389218
Because OTR would do absolutely nothing in the event that hard tunneling didn't occur in any given game, and it disables itself if a survivor feels a sneeze coming on. Trying to play survivor situationally like that is like playing the lottery. Sometimes you hit the jackpot, but you end up losing more often than not.
OTR lets you freely reset. The killer doesn't have to hard tunnel every game for you to get massive value from the perk. If you reset under hook and the killer comes back, is that hard tunneling? Feel like it's how players think you just run gen rush builds next patch. Sure you can beat the weaker killers with those builds but you will auto-lose vs the top tier ones. Why not build around the games were it will be the hardest?
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@SweetTerror said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3389196#Comment_3389196
For starters, nerfing add-ons for a killer that has a low pick rate doesn't make any sense when you have stronger add-ons that are borderline busted on much stronger killers making them even more efficient than they need to be.
Secondly, yes med kits are a limited resource, but you shouldn't be punished for working as a team. I'm fine with it taking 24 seconds to self heal, but having altruistic healing take the same amount of time means there's no benefit to heal as a team. Why stop working on the objective or put yourself at risk when you can just hoard a med kit and keep as far away from your team as possible should they get in danger?
These are ideas that have not been properly thought through. You don't need a handful of people to tell you that certain decisions are bad for the game. This is BHVR's game, and unless it's a radical idea like base kit unbreakable, then they shouldn't need us to tell them what works and what doesn't.
Does it really matter if he isn't played at a high amount if they saw him at 70% kill rate in the top 1% and 99% of those players were using double engraving? They were doing Billy changes and saw something that made them feel engravings needed nerfs.
Don't see how medkits being the same healing means you are being punished for group healing. You don't need a very limited resource to group heal.
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@Rogue11 said:
When they ask who your killer main is but don't include Demo in the list of choices...
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/0JZ57AKOIPE4/7gp45x.jpg
I thought I was blind, and I legit spent like 5 minutes double and triple checking that I wasn't missing the one true good boy.
Sad Demo Noises
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3389218#Comment_3389218
Just hit them off of hook?
They waste SB and OTR. Even if you give up chase they still have to mend and don't have OTR.
Yea you certainly can do that. I was just more talking about how they said the healing changes will make tunneling better, which I don't see how that can be the case.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Or...it takes longer to heal the rescued person and thus makes tunneling them more viable than before. Remember, the average killer will always take the path of least resistance.
If that is the case then why not run OTR? SB will be the next exhaustion meta and OTR pairs very well with the perk. If a player can run the killer and that scenario happens you basically lose the game. You will eat the Sb and they will still have OTR. Your slowdown is weaker with regression nerfs and gens should just end up flying because your main source of slowdown(injuries) doesn't work while you tunnel some dude.
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@SweetTerror said:
I know the devs play their own game, it's ridiculous to think that they don't, but what kind of feedback do they rely on to make changes within the game? This PTB has so many questionable changes that it literally makes no sense.
How is it that when you take into consideration some of the strongest add-ons between killers like blight, spirit, Myers, etc, that you come to the conclusion that it's Billy - a killer with one of the lowest pick rates - that needs his best add-ons changed?
How do you look at the healing speed of a perk like self-care, and think that it's perfectly fine that it takes over a minute to heal?
How is it fine that altruistic healing takes the same amount of time to heal as self-healing with a medkit?
How is it fine that you nerf every major generator regression perk, but don't alter the items or perks that increase repair speeds?
How is it fine that dead hard requires not only an unhook to activate, but a safe unhook at that? All a killer has to do is tunnel to ensure that doesn't happen.
And what's really funny is how BHVR has already stated that there will be changes made before this goes live. Clearly they can see just how busted this game would be if everything stayed the way it was. I get that the PTB is there for testing purposes, but how did they not see just how busted a lot of these changes were prior to the PTB?
Like I said, I'm sure the devs play their own game, but how did anyone think that some of these changes were a good idea? How did game testers look at these changes and tell BHVR that this was healthy for the game? I just don't get it.
How is it that when you take into consideration some of the strongest add-ons between killers like blight, spirit, Myers, etc, that you come to the conclusion that it's Billy - a killer with one of the lowest pick rates - that needs his best add-ons changed?
They were looking into Billy and not those killers. They made changes on his add-ons because they saw issues with those add-ons with the data and thought it should be changed.
How is it fine that altruistic healing takes the same amount of time to heal as self-healing with a medkit?
Medkits are a limited resource which makes them being equal in healing speeds fine. Those items are balanced around them being a limited resources and not something that you will always heal with.
How is it fine that you nerf every major generator regression perk, but don't alter the items or perks that increase repair speeds?
Just because something wasn't changed in this patch doesn't mean it won't be.
And what's really funny is how BHVR has already stated that there will be changes made before this goes live. Clearly they can see just how busted this game would be if everything stayed the way it was.
They need to change the recovery speeds. They wouldn't be lying if they said changes will happen when players are clearly not ok with the Billy changes or slugging buffs. Saying that doesn't mean they will scrap the entire thing and they were just clueless on how the changes would impact the game.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3388826#Comment_3388826
Yeah. We have so many people complaining about altruistic healing speeds, when there are so many healing speed perks that can completely undo the slower basekit altruistic healing speeds.
It will be interesting to see what the final patch notes will look like. I've certainly never seen a player base more opposed a meta shake-up in my life.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3388806#Comment_3388806
A reduction of 5% would make the healing time increase equal to same amount as current servers. Mangled increases healing time by 6 seconds on PTB. at -15% speed, it would increase it by 4 seconds. The exact same increase as live version. Live version is 16+4.
Problem is everyone will be running healing perks. If you run botany it will be 24x1.15=27.6/1.5=18.4. Mangled would add 2.4 seconds to a heal in that scenario
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@Crowman said:
I doubt it'll be a full revert. We'll likely see adjustments to the values and maybe a nerf of mangled that'll end up with longer heals than live, but faster than ptb.
Can mangled even see nerfs while still making it worth running on a perk like sloppy? 20% wouldn't do anything as a nerf but lower would make it not worth it as a perk
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3388663#Comment_3388663
The issue in plat is that many of the strategies Killers can employ are difficult to counter without both coordination and knowledge.
It takes more skill to counter tunneling than it does to tunnel.
It takes more skill to counter camping than it does to camp.
I suspect that's why a lot of Killers get hardlocked. These strategies will carry you until you start finding people who are equipped to deal with them and then suddenly, the game feels extremely unfair.
Yea I see where you are going with that. So lets say we nerf camping and tunneling. Now at the very top there is a issue with killer being weak so we look for ideas where we can help fix that issue without having much impact on other players. They mentioned that when it came to Nemesis getting buffs and why they chose to buff t3. With plat you have players that are somewhat skillful and have a good idea of how to play the game. You can then do balance changes for higher or lower skill levels with the intent to try and avoid hitting other levels of play while fixing issues.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3388630#Comment_3388630
The issue in plat levels of play is rather the opposite.
Gunna need you to expand on that. Are you going off your experience at soft cap or other reasons? If it is your experience then I recall you saying you have played in comp. That would be more like .01 playing more in the top 5%ish of players.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3388568#Comment_3388568
Closer.
It's more that, on average, Survivors at a high level can use hook stages as a currency. They have twelve total stages and only five gens to do. Every stage is basically a gen or at least a gen no longer worth defending.
The discrepancy between Killer and Survivor objectives tips the balance. Killers tunneling or securing hook stages removes (or lessens) Survivors ability to use hook stages as currency for gens and (sometimes) re-balances the scales.
It does not work that way for MOST players, however.
Ok that's fair. But that should only be a real issue at the very top, no? Do you think that can be said at plat levels of play? Like 10% of the player base is what seems to be what general balance is done for pvp games. Making it so they fix what I mentioned would make the higher levels of play to be better balanced without the need for camp/tunneling, and I think the very top is irrelevant since we have the mmr cap anyway.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3388555#Comment_3388555
Close.
Why do Killers at the top level need to camp and tunnel?
Survivors do gens faster than killers can down along with there not being an incentive to do anything else?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3388535#Comment_3388535
Competitive FPS games do, sure. E-sport games do, sure.
If you balance around the top level of DBD, the game will die. Make no mistake.
Top level DBD is NOT fun and it will not be fun for the average player.
Isn't the main issue with balancing at the top for dbd is killers need to camp and tunnel. Wouldn't the issue mostly be the strategy at the top levels are horrendously bad for the games health?
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3388320#Comment_3388320
Wouldn't casual players not be running gen regression though?
Not in my experience, there are many of them and I think most the Survivors have one or two and Killers as well.
What would you personally consider a casual player? I would say those are players that just do whatever in-game and don't really bring meta perks.
I consider that a player that plays in a relaxed tempo, that is how I like to play and it makes me unhappy to have to sweat into it, Tho I am certainly able to sweat if I meet some players who push hard. A Casual player does not do obvious balls tactics. Like if I see a player that obviously had made it their mission to annoy me as Killer, then I cannot consider them casual. I dont consider it sweaty to use perks, but its more about how those perks are used. This is just my subjective opinion tho. My own interpretation.
That would then follow into the healing changes which I think you will need to run a healing perk to deal with, and so that would probably hurt casual players.
It wont hurt them, its not required. but you just have to deal with a harder reality without it. which is fine, I didn't really consider healing perks important as Survivor, I might do that now. Which is what we want? Perk diversity? I think this is great. But if you are trying to say, casual players who dont change will get hurt, then yes and then they go down in MMR until they adjust and return to where they can go in mmr after that.
But wouldn't it be fair to say players that don't want to run meta get hurt? Those players that don't want to run are going to be the casual players.
Running a meta perk isn't sweaty, like I said its more about how you play with those perks.
Besides in order to switch the metas we need to change the game, so yes survivors will get a lil sting from adjusting but if they are able to perform like on the PTB. I think they will be fine. Its not impossible to win, just a lil bit harder. Which is fine, I always considered Survivors to be the most relaxed role in dbd. Even tho I enjoy playing relaxed Killer.
I think that's a good definition of casual. Mostly just a laid-back player and running meta doesn't mean you arn't a casual player.
I would say you are more required to run healing perks. I don't actually see any issue with that though. If you play league you're building a certain way. A tank should be building tanky items or dps building items to increase your dps.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3388282#Comment_3388282
Not at all.
- medkits are much more important than before, this is okay cause everyone has access to a medkit
- healing takes longer, giving killers more time. Moving away from all gen regress perks meta.
- This also addressed the number one killer complaint, not enough time to make a play.
- Survivors whom I faced on PTB are doing fine, it barely changes it from the normal games.
- healing survivor perks are being used more, its good. it makes also less gen perks and you have more considerations.
- Taking a hit now means more for the survivor and less for the Killer, which help against the tunnel only playstyle. Hit and run.
All in all, its a big shift in meta, considerations, knowledge and strategy. So no wonder it upsets people, but its better for people who are open to change and can embrace new strategies. People who dont want to change their meta build is gonna get shafted. Its fine.
Wouldn't casual players not be running gen regression though? What would you personally consider a casual player? I would say those are players that just do whatever in-game and don't really bring meta perks. That would then follow into the healing changes which I think you will need to run a healing perk to deal with, and so that would probably hurt casual players. Then you go into mistakes being punished harder which casual players would be doing them the most.
People who dont want to change their meta build is gonna get shafted. Its fine.
I 100% agree with that, but wouldn't it be fair to say players that don't want to run meta get hurt? Those players that don't want to run are going to be the casual players.
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@Emeal said:
Problem is people think Streamers are experts of dbd, yet they are not. They don't have access to the numbers, They have no theories on what is balanced and how perks/items and players perform all over the game. They only are just an opinion haver with a fanbase. Most of the time, they are a bad opinion haver because they only play against the best of the best, which makes their ideas usually ruin the game for the rest of us. Their fanbase will just drink it up without thinking and repost it everywhere, instead of actually playing the PTB.
bHVR should not design the game about the top 5%, They need to get more casual players into the fog whisper program.
bHVR also need to make sure they look carefully on claims of balance vs. the reality in the PTB data.
I think we just have to be blunt from now on, Argument from Streamer is a fallacy now.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3388255#Comment_3388255
I'm a casual player and I love the PTB. The Survivors who I played against on there are doing fine. What now, Pulsy?
What's is your reasoning on the changes being great for casual players? These changes look to put more of an importance on skilled play which in turn will hurt casual players. Needing to think more along with mistakes being punished harder is what I would think is the opposite of good for casual players.
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@crogers271 said:
First of all, it's PTB and I am pretty sure some changes will be reverted since so many people online including influencers are talking how bad it is.Creator: If you do this, the game will die.
BHVR: Okay, we won't do that.
That kind of sounds like what community engagement is supposed to be.
Problem is when creators say this will kill the game but not actually explain why the changes are bad. I heard a creator say that they are winning all the games on ptb and this can't live. The problem with that is there is no MM on ptb, so saying that doesn't mean anything. I've heard a bunch say the healing increase shouldn't be done but ignore the fact that they are trying to encourage spread pressure more and made regression weak to shift the meta. I haven't seen videos on why that direction is bad for the game.
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Just people scared of change and the uncertainty that can come with it. Keep in the mind that playing this game is their job. No game=no job. From what I've been seeing it's basically this patch will kill the game and then they just leave it at that. Some don't even understand that the regression nerfs and healing are tied changes.
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@TheLegionOfDwights said:
You clearly play a side game.
If you think you're right then you haven't played the game in a while or you've played something else.
But no problem, have fun playing with bots.
So just booting up and playing soloq now?
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3387149#Comment_3387149
Even with the perk nerfs, I still think camping will be improved.
SH: Pain Resonance, for example, if you are camping the hook, and paired it with Dead Man’s Switch, you don’t need more than 4 activations anyways.
Deadlock remained unchanged.
No Way Out remained unchanged.
With a full build dedicated to slowing down the match while camping has basically not been changed and/or has hardly been nerfed. And now they will have more options to camp with because of Sloppy Butcher and Coulrophobia.
Again, this does have impact upon all skill levels.
I just wish skill was more rewarded, when I play Killer well, I want to feel like I am rewarded for playing well. And I feel horrible from the idea that someone sitting in front of the hook, not moving, could do better than any of my efforts. It feels worse as Survivor of course, seeing someone put the bare minimum amount of effort and watching my team crumble to pieces, like a cookie breaking apart.
But can I blame them? It is the smarter play after all, it is rewarded more after all, it takes less effort after all. This, this is where I have an issue in. You can buff the rewards of getting a hit, to reward skill, but the lack of impactful changes towards camping just is a complete takeaway to me.
For PR you only get one proc if you tunnel and camping shouldn't be a problem if you rotate hooks. Lets say you get 3 hooks with PR and now survivors can rotate 3 players. Might not be enough of a nerf but how can the changes not be nerfing that.
True but PR makes it weaker
Same as above, and kick perks also nerf it
Sloppy into auto vs a swf is going to hurt more than help killers I think. Free 5 stacks for everyone at the start. Coul doesn't help with camping since you are not rotating the map. Just don't heal at hook and it isn't a problem. Again this doesn't mean there are niche cases like Wesker on small maps but those should be addressed separately.
I completely agree with the feeling that some dude barely puts effort in and gets massively rewarded. That's why I love this patch, because it remove a bunch of the handholding that the game currently has. And hey it might not be enough but the direction is good.
I think it makes it closer though. Yes the best way might be to still proxy+tunnel but the gap between that and going for hooks will be closer. It looks to me that camping and tunnel are weaker next patch while going for hooks is better. Even if the former is still the best thing it's the correct direction to be going. At the end of the day the most important thing is doing constant updates and moving in the correct direction. Things might not be fixed now but eventually it will get there.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3387105#Comment_3387105
You act like new players don’t camp and tunnel?
Camping and tunneling exists in all skill levels, since people are naturally going to make the smarter play over the more skilled play, especially if playing smarter is more rewarding.
Being skilled and improving should be rewarding to the Killer, this change without changing anything to camping will make the less skilled (but smarter) play more rewarding in my opinion. Which is partly where I take issue.
This affects everyone, it has a bigger impact on newer/experienced players, but I think it will still impact all MMR ranges to some degree, to better clarify.
Ok? So how does these changes do anything there? You need SB+OTR to counter the proxy+tunnel. So are we to not change the game because you need 1 more perk as a new player?
Yea very true. And I see the healing taking longer encourages playing the entire map more. Then you add on the fact that SB is meta which pairs amazing with OTR and I don't see the problem. The issue I see is players make it seem that all injured with one down is a problem that shouldn't be in the game. The problem in that case, outside a few killers, is a skill issue.
Making injuries matter more does make it rewarding for both sides playing skillful. Camping Is better when you injure everyone and I don't see, again outside a few killers, how there is a buff there when kick and PR were gutted. Unskilled camping is nerfed while skilled camping is buffed.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3387058#Comment_3387058
“Giving a hook state in this situation so the whole team can reset is not a bad trade,” tell me, which is better?
- 1 hook spread across 3 different Survivors.
- 3 hooks on a single Survivor (sacrificed).
Why wouldn’t the Killer just tunnel the Survivor who gets unhooked? They have no reason not to.
I do not think you understand what I am trying to say in the slightest. Just because a play is skillful, does not mean it is smart, and vice versa. People are naturally going to make the smarter play because it is more rewarding than the skillful play. Camping will increase, because people are going to take the path of least resistance, especially if you aren’t rewarded as much or are punished by making the more skillful play. “Work smarter, not harder.” As a result, situations like this become more common because skill is not properly rewarded and camping is being (in)directly buffed.
Also, I rarely see Reassurance or Kinship in my matches, I maybe see one every 20-30 games. Also this doesn’t even consider some areas do not allow for Reassurance to be used easily (basement, most notably). And again, newer/less experienced players are taking the hugest hit, since they are not equipped or ready to deal with such, amplified by the fact that Killers can do it at any skill level with little effort (as mentioned before, path of least resistance).
Are we talking about normal play or for new players? Normal play can punish tunneling by everyone running SB+OTR. I've already had killers try to play like it is comp into those perks and get heavily punished for doing so.
I would say camping will be seen more if survivors stay injured but should decrease with injuries being more impactful and regression being gutted.
This seems to be an issue most affected by soloq. Think there was even a picture of a camping icon which might imply the HUD getting a buff to show a killer is camping hooks. Progress on gens stick more so killers camping when survivors are healthy doesn't make much sense. Survivors just trade when the player goes close to next stage and gen are flying left and right. What makes camping so strong is when the survivors don't know it is happening and spend time going to hook. If the HUD gets an update to fix this then I don't see it being a problem.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3387052#Comment_3387052
Hmmm.
- “If the Killer can injure all 4 Survivors and get a down, then that’s a skilled thing to do,” ya know it isn’t hard to play Legion, nor is it hard to use a map offering and Never Sleep Pills. As someone who plays Killer (and Survivor) A LOT, with CoH being nerfed, having and maintaining injures on Survivors is going to be rather easy in most matches, especially when paired with anti-healing perks.
- “SoloQ is terrible because of matchmaking, I agree, but at the same time, if you make matchmaking strict Killer becomes significantly more stressful, and you’ll never hear the end of it from the forums. Tis’ a double edged sword.
- ”You see healing bring an issue as a new player, you rock Claud for Botany,” and new players are expected to run perks for every situation,”. They need stuff for healing, camping, tunneling, basic information, generator repairs, etc. The game is already incredibly hostile to new players and this amplifies that issue even more.
Which is why I mentioned some killers might need to be looked at. Outside some killers that statement is true.
At the soft cap it is all swf basically. I legit break 3+ mins runs in my soloq games and will auto-lose every match. The changes make skillful play more rewarding. It is a step in the right direction in fixing soloq. Is the matchmaking actually broken or is skillful play not rewarded enough where skilled players can't win games consistently without playing certain playstyles(lonewolf). Also the massive amount of handholding for killer is removed which should also help in this regard.
I don't think that is an issue for new players. Are new killers playing like it's a comp match? You're not wrong in needing those perks, but are there players doing that stuff as new players?
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3386990#Comment_3386990
The recovery change is very much intended, at least it seems like it.
- If they wanted to slow down healing only, they would simply reduce the c/s for healing and items.
- BHVR increased the amount of charges needed for a health state, this means it takes 24 charges to recover/heal a health state, recovering at 0.5 c/s (half the base healing speed).
Also this is ignoring the elephant in the room with camping; if 3 Survivors are healing just to counter someone camping, no one is doing Generators. The Killer is progressing their objective but the Survivors aren’t progressing theirs. Either way camping is significantly more beneficial for the Killer while involving significantly less effort.
This is made further complicated when you have SoloQ since coordinating healing becomes more difficult compared to SWF. This isn’t even considering some Killers are especially good at injuring Survivors, so even when an unhook occurs, the Killer can just undo all that healing and start the process all over again.
And as I mentioned before, brand new/less experienced players are going to suffer the most from these changes. They are not going to have the perks necessary to deal with this. And even F2P players are going to take a hit with perks like Reassurance being locked behind a paywall while Kinship gets unironically nerfed.
Think it's just general heal increase and they didn't notice how recovery being longer will be problematic. On of the reasons to do a PTB to find some things that make it past their testing.
If a killer can injure all 4 survivors and get a down then that's a skilled thing for the killer. I see it basically saying the devs shouldn't reward skilled plays. Certain killers might need looking into but that isn't a problem imo.
Soloq is terrible because of matchmaking. How does MM work if you can't even win games running the killer for minutes. The new changes reward that skilled plays by survivor which in turn should ideally help or work toward making the MM better for soloq.
PVP don't balance their entire game around new players. You see healing being an issue as a new player you rock claud for Botany.
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Dead by hand holding needs to die. I've never lost more unfair games in my life than in this year of dbd. Not like players will leave DBD for other PVP games. There isn't a single top game that will give handheld free wins.
In the PTB I've broke runs and felt how large of an impact it had on the game. I even had a game where we almost won as a 3v1 off one really good run I had. Sadly we got a crutchhard user thinking they actually knew how to play and tried to do a gen rush build and quickly was shown by the killer that the crutch is what let them run not their actual skill. Patch is a straight up 10/10
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Funny enough next patch should improve soloq. The changes make running the killer more valuable. Problem with soloq is MM, which can't work if you don't reward players when they run the killer. This is why I think it is so bad because running the killer doesn't give enough impact on the game. How can MM work if skilled play doesn't result in winning for soloq?
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slug
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There is 2 mental states I'm in when the killer tunnels me. There is the "dude really... are you actually gunna tunnel me" vs "ah #########, the killer is going to remove me". Don't worry if the survivors complain. If you feel you didn't play like there was a gift card on the line then it's fair game.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384897#Comment_3384897
except for low tier m1 killers with no chase power. They depended on PR.
I view the healing changes as been good for m1 killers. They struggle with downs but typically can get hits easy. Injuries will hurt more next patch, so that should be a good change for low tier killers.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384897#Comment_3384897
-"Gen regression is there to amplify your tempo. PR and old pop made downs regress gens and then the survivors had to save and reset which if you were getting fast down could stall the game. "
This is true. Gen regression with good pressure on the survivors kept them from 100% doing the gens "most of the time".
- "Low tier killers are should also be better in this meta if you weren't doing gen kicking."
This is so not true- lol. There is nothing in the patch to make Pig better. Pig had natural slowdown and that fed into some level of gen regression. It's kinda like the situation with Jolt; by itself does nothing but in the current patch it adds a lot when added to other regression.
Killers that already downed players fast might be ok. Killers that have anti loop and don't have a chase end immediately when a pallet drops are likely going to be fine. Healing will take forever and survivors will play hurt. We will see a lot more punishment with slugging and camping when the gen count gets low. We will see scenarios where everyone is hurt and one player is on their last hook state. Who goes for the unhook? Nobody - because the killer knows everyone is hurt.
The logic for low tier killers is they are usually good at getting hits but trash at getting downs. If you were not running kick perks then you most likely were rocking jolt+PR. I think the healing changes will be better game delay for them then that.
I think healing taking forever will make survivors run healing perks. I think if survivors manage to not heal and slam gens then we will see thana go back to 4% per injury. I do agree that if they don't heal there will be a increase in slugging and camping to try to punish those plays.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384951#Comment_3384951
A 'skilled' killer should be getting matched against equally 'skilled' survivors.
...so no, it's not really a skill issue.
The soft cap is 1600. The MM in this game is very loose. I also don't think even in comp you see that.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384919#Comment_3384919
Because the game is mathematically unfavorable towards killers.
It has nothing to do with skill.
If you are losing 2-3 gens as a S tier killer while running CI before you get your first down that is a skill issue. And ever since they changed the MM from 1900 I don't ever see 2 gens pop with CI as I get my first down. 1900 was also before the 6.1 patch which also helped killers.
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@mees said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384897#Comment_3384897
yeah i get that but that only works if people actually heal thats the problem
Yea but that's why you run things that punish survivors that don't heal. Plaything looks really good next patch since stealth counters that. Also survivors will be running one slot for healing so that's less gen speed perks they will be running. Killer should be around the same power level if you are chasing and not sweating like your life depends on the win.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384912#Comment_3384912
They’re not though. While she’s chasing the first survivor you should be able to pop 2-3 gens.
Well explain how that isn't a skill issue on the Spirit's end if you are losing 2-3 gens first chase when running CI?
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384814#Comment_3384814
You can still genrush against Spirit tho? And survivors can still counter jolt.
How do you genrush/counter jolt when everyone is going down like flies?
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384833#Comment_3384833
It's not just that the gen kick meta is getting killed, it's that all the old slowdown remains dead, so there's not going to be much left on the vine here with regard to effective slowdown.
And unless you are exclusively playing S/A tier killers, that creates a problem beyond being a "skill issue".
Gen regression is there to amplify your tempo. PR and old pop made downs regress gens and then the survivors had to save and reset which if you were getting fast down could stall the game. The healing changes are basically taking the new role in that regard. Low tier killers are should also be better in this meta if you weren't doing gen kicking.
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@mees said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384833#Comment_3384833
skill issue is one of the dumbest arguments omeone can make cause there will always be crazy good players that can do stuff others can't so just because there are people that can win without kicking gens doesn't mean that it is a skill issue that the majority of poeple need them.
When I see killers camp, tunnel, or do 3 gens in soloq they are always terrible in chase. I win most games on Demo with PR being my only game delay. No camping or tunnel just randomly chasing players. I don't even keep track of hooks and remove someone quicky because I normally win without needing to. So from my experience needing to use kick perks to win is basically elo boosting yourself into games where you do not belong.
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If you need kick perks to win games in pubs then it's a skill issue.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384770#Comment_3384770
Inner Healing takes 14 seconds to break a totem + time to find the totem. Then 8 seconds in the locker + time to slowly enter and leave. You'll spend more time trying to get Inner Healing value than if you'd brought a medkit.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384781#Comment_3384781
You beat her the same way you beat every killer--do gens as fast as possible. She can't be everywhere at once.
Maybe you don't realize how much wasted gen progression occurs when people decide to heal.
If you don't heal she is going to be procing jolt left and right while you have to get off gens to save. One person will be on a gen while she keeps hitting gens with jolt. She loves when survivors stay injured because it buffs her chase. Slamming gens injured is not the winning strategy. If survivor bring full gen builds with BNP then you get ring+ amulet being brought often. And at that point she literally is everywhere.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384619#Comment_3384619
SWF: "I could use a heal." "Ok, I'm about to finish the gen clockwise from shack, I'll heal you up and we can finish it together."
Solo survivor A: wanders around the map for 45 seconds before finding someone to heal them. Forgot to equip bond in the lobby.
Solo survivor B: brought self care and wastes 60 seconds healing with sloppy, is interrupted by the killer and loses all progress instantly.
Solo survivor C: boons a totem with circle of healing. Stands still spamming crouch, doing nothing, until someone leaves what they're doing to cross the map and heal them in the boon.
Solo survivor D: plans to just stay injured and work on gens, but can't communicate this to the others mid game. Their teammate follows them around with the intent to heal, but not accomplishing anything useful because they're annoyed 'the other guy isn't letting them heal'. The teammate throws a pallet and vaults it until survivor D allows them to finally heal them, deleting their resilience buff.
SWF impact is the extra 8 seconds of healing. Solo impact is magnified tremendously by the fact that you can't coordinate with your teammates, and everyone has a different plan most of the time.
That's a skill issue. Problem soloq has right now is that so many players are elo boosted. Like the killer doing 3 gens will win games they shouldn't just based on the fact that players leave since they don't want to deal with it. On the other hand the changes should make runners climb, so the players that suck at chasing but are carried by perks will no longer be in their games. Since this patch will removes these things we should see MM actually start doing its job and that will be better for soloq. Number 1 problem with soloq is how terrible the players you are paired with are.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384746#Comment_3384746
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384747#Comment_3384747
Like I said, the winds are changing and you'd be a fool to sail against them.
Compensating for survivors new dump stat is a losing battle. You should not dedicate an entire build to be decent at one thing, when you can create a loadout that makes you great at multiple things or excellent at one thing.
@Caiman have fun running Reactive Healing into the countless Sloppy Butchers you'll be facing.
the winds are changing and you'd be a fool to sail against them.
So how do you plan on beating on the Spirits that are going to be around? Spirit wants you to stay injured and if players start bring BNP she can bring ring+ amulet. You'd be a fool to bring no healing perks next patch.
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I would say Demo can win most game with CI. I would say he is a B tier killer.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384462#Comment_3384462
This is exactly correct.
To add to this, with increased healing time you're putting an incredibly high value on a health state. Getting injured is far, far more punishing with 24s base heals.
At higher levels, this means that survivors will pre drop pallets. Anything to delay the first hit is critical of you are already confident you can loop. Pre drop everything knowing that your team is slamming gens faster than the killer can react. This punishes 'M1' or 'weak killers' more and is already the correct play for killers like Oni or even Nemi who rely on snowballing off of it, for example.
If survivors aren't confident in their teammates or their looping ability (or both), it means either more stealth gameplay to avoid the hit, or newer players who just power through self care for an 85 second mangled heal.
So basically, high tier is comp with pre dropping and gen rushing, and solo q is a disaster.
To add to this, with increased healing time you're putting an incredibly high value on a health state. Getting injured is far, far more punishing with 24s base heals.
Which the devs want survivors to run healing perks. Getting injured next patch is much worse and healing perks make it not punishing to get injured. Next patch just encourages players to run a healing perk to offset the healing change.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384405#Comment_3384405
Hmmm... I still have a REALLY bad feeling over those changes and what will happen... I hope to be wrong...
Try gift of pain with plaything on the ptb. Rewards you for getting downs and punishes them for not healing and pushing gens since you have no TR.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384440#Comment_3384440
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384434#Comment_3384434
Let's lay out a few basics.
If healing took 60 seconds no one should ever heal. If it took 3 seconds everyone should always heal.
The design goal should be to introduce elements that players have to think about: is this the right idea? On some elements they've made a bad design - opening chests is pretty much always a bad idea if you are just 100% committed to escaping.
Altruistic healing is in a pretty good place. 16 seconds (32 seconds between the survivors) is a worthwhile choice - is that additional health state going to buy you more chase time than you spent healing + the risk that the healing gets interrupted by the killer.
24 seconds is a big change. The circumstances were healing is now the right tactical move have dropped quite a bit. Not only are you wasting quite a bit of time that could be on gens, the 8 extra seconds increase the chances the killer gets to you before the heal finishes.
So what do you do? Try and do gens even faster. Load up on resilience. Take Off the Record or Decisive Strike. Don't even think about healing outside resets or a survivor is running a dedicated healer build (never try for a risky heal).
What probably happens is a large portion of the player base plays the same, killers at mid and lower MMR see a kill rate boost, killers have massive complaints when the next balance patch happens.
I see the change as basically you run a healing perk as survivor. The meta is shifting to hit n run and healing being more important, and that's very good. The thing is you are right about about always or never healing. The thing that makes the change amazing is it adds skill for survivor. Should you heal is a question you will be asking. What is the tempo of this game and the correct play here is what. If you run Botany Knowledge the healing changes do nothing. Going into next patch that perk is the baseline and I will be looking for things that are giving more value. Empathic Connections already looks to be the soloq meta perk. It's a 10% heal increase and shows your aura to injured survivors.