Trollinmon
Trollinmon
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@SirCracken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380452#Comment_3380452
You're projecting my dude.
Just because you don't like going against SB + Fixated doesn't mean it's the best counter to Nurse. Because it really isn't. Nurse excels at covering ground and the most that SB can give you against a good Nurse is to maybe dodge her first two blinks.
This is supported by the fact that way before gen regression perks and DH became meta Nurse was still the strongest killer in the game. She really doesn't care if you gain distance on her. The only killer that catches up faster than her is Blight. The 2nd strongest killer in the game.
You should frame your arguments better instead of trying to flex with a legacy cosmetic that doesn't prove that you know what you're talking about. All it does is make you look like you have something to prove.
What are you talking about?? Stealth is very strong vs Nurse and SB is the best exhaustion perk for someone that wants to stealth. And you realize that dodging her first 2 blinks is basically an extra health state?? And you can waste her time stealthing while also then still getting the extra health state making sb very strong.
Are you talking about old Nurse like Omega blink where the addon gave blink speed, blink charge speed, and range all at 50%? Oh and she didn't have a cd on her blinks either.
So the player that has been playing Nurse and playing vs Nurse before you knew what dbd was doesn't show that maybe I have a clue on what I'm talking about. Just an fyi I think the next patch makes Nurse go from a 9.5 to a 9.6. The changes are very minor for her. Not sure how it works in comp but she doesn't seem like much is changing with her for pubs which btw is what the game should be balanced for.
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@RainehDaze said:
Circle of Healing should still allow survivors to self-heal within its radius
No. That is literally the problem with it. That has always been the problem with it: one survivor and 14s in an isolated area of the map, now everyone has old self-care.
The overcharge and CoB changes aren't really okay, because even if they hadn't touched Pain Res, the only halfway functional regression perks are pain res (semi-unreliable scourge hook perk) and Jolt (half the Killers can't use it). Every regression perk has either been nerfed in 6.1.0, or de facto deleted afterwards. <_>
Gen regression can't be strong if healing is going to take this long. The direction they seem to be going here is that slowdown should mostly come from injuring survivors. If they did the healing change with strong regression killer would be too strong.
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@SirCracken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380421#Comment_3380421
Survivors can still stealth no matter what exhaustion perk they're using. The DH nerf doesn't change that.
SB & Self Aware are not counters to Nurse. The combo is mostly used by survivors who don't know how to 99% their sprint burst and often waste time walking everywhere.
I'm not convinced you understand Nurse because the most common way for good Nurses to win games is to down survivors faster than they can heal and repair. Pre-nerf DH let them save time on healing since they could use it as an extra health state. With DH in the ever-growing perk dumpster, survivors now have to spend time healing if they want their 2nd health state. But now it takes even longer.
Again, this update just made Nurse and Blight objectively stronger.
Almost like the best way to stealth is with SB....
Sb+ self is very strong vs Nurse. I'm more scared of a players using that combo than a DH user.
The most common way for Nurse to win is by getting in fast chases and ending them quickly. Gen regression and info perks are her meta build for pubs.
You know how to obtain that weapon?
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@SirCracken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380405#Comment_3380405
What are you talking about? Having survivors injured for longer, especially now that DH has been gutted, is amazing for Nurse and Blight. It lets them snowball games easier and makes it harder for survivors to recover. Losing Pain Res really won't hurt them much because they never needed gen regression perks to win games anyway.
This next update is just a straight-up buff to the strongest killers in the game. And that isn't a good thing.
Well first off Sb+ self aware is way harder to deal with as Nurse than DH. Survivors that play stealthy are what counters Nurse not DH.
Snowball games with what? Good survivors play those killers by spreading out on gens.... Like if you stack vs my Nurse I don't need slowdown because you are playing terrible in the first place. The places where worse healing does something massive is when you stack, and you don't stack vs Nurse.
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Actually Nurse and Blight don't care much for the healing changes because they lost Pain res. If you think the killers that had their game delay tied to how well they can down survivors and then getting regression off those downs is somehow better off with healing being a bit slower and the regression nerfed then idk what to tell ya. I would certainly rather PR over sloppy as Nurse as my fast down and high tempo is rewarded more with PR than it is with sloppy. If those killers do show problems they can, like idk, nerf them. Might be a crazy thought though. However didn't they just get done doing that like a couple patches ago? Doesn't seem like that is something they are scared to do.
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Played every patch since 1.0.0 and would say this might be the best patch they have ever released. The only thing I have a concern about is hit n run killers with the healing changes. Outside that I think they did an phenomenal job with this patch.
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@fussy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380001#Comment_3380001
omg, someone else playing dbd in 21:9 <3
Remember dark days of playing dbd without the force 16:9? Log in but forget to change the monitor to 16:9 and see nemesis headless.😂The patch that allowed you to force 16:9 was one of the best qol patches for 21:9+ players
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It's because players have no clue how to theory craft. They see nerfs and then proceed to cry since they don't understand the full picture. I think soloq is a dumpster fire right now and understand that these changes are a buff. I mean its pretty obvious to me that gutting 3 gens and promoting split pressure/chases while nerfs to camping and tunneling are buffs for soloq.
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Um they made 12 hooking better while nerfing the perks that encouraged camping.... The healing changes are best for split pressure and do nothing for tunneling.
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For my m1 killers I'm thinking of going enfury, gift of pain with CI/lethal. Enfury for strong chase with GoP to slow the gens down and if survivors counter that perk by not healing then you basically get insta down and then a solid early game perk to finish everything off.
For m2 killers I would say enfury would be changed for info perks or another game delay.
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@Sava18 said:
I 100% agree, who was complaining about base altruistic heal speeds? I don't know if I seen one person say that needed to be changed. Of courses CoH and med-kits nerfs are great though.
Players were complaining about there not being anything other than sitting on gens or they feel forced to tunnel. I find the healing changes is them trying to address those issues. They are encouraging players to seek and heal others or reward 12 hooking more by making split pressure better. To not over buff killer they nerfed PR so killer wouldn't gain to much snowball off the changes.
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If you heal and the survivor now takes 45 seconds longer in chase then 3 survivor potentially can sit on gens for 45 seconds longer. Staying injured is going to be more scary since you no longer have DH as a get out of jail free card. All this change really does it makes survivors want to run Botany (16x1.5=24).
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Think it will be fine since Gift of pain should be better next patch. With GoP you could just stay injured and be fine since you had DH. If DH is pushed out of the meta then staying injured is much more of a risk making GoP very good.
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Bond is super underrated.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378945#Comment_3378945
1 as I said I'm trying to have chill matches so unlike the other people I'm using NON META STUFF (hence why this build with those addons), is that hard to understand?
2 just because a streamer say something doesn't mean that the streamer speak the absolute truth, quite the contrary... Also see my previous supposition about streamers mmr...
3 did I say that deadlock is strong? Never said that, but it's the only perk that killer have that's GRANTED unlike the scourge hooks (can be denied by simple map rng, placing them in places that you'll never go or by simply Sabo the hook) or overcharge/cob combo (a single skill check will completely counter 2 perks, think how much is strong /s)
4 in certain loops wesker IS a m1 killer, there's no way that you can play around certain loops due to being too much safe or having messed up hitboxes...
If you are looking to chill why wouldn't you run PR? Such a good perk that is very good in helping you go for 12 hook games. The meta right now is cob and camping a 3 gen.
While that very much is true I'm just giving an example of a good player trying in their games and their opinion on the current state of the game. The point is that good streamers are always winning their games while not needing to camp or tunnel and Hexy is one that actually sweats really hard on low tier killers and wins every game. Tried looking for what you said about this in the thread but couldn't, so if you can say it again about streamer mmr I would be able to comment on it.
So as a player that goes for 12 hook games at soft cap I found DL to be straight up trash. You try and get good tempo and the perk literally does nothing when you succeed. The only value you get from it is if you are losing the game, but survivors teams that are good will counter it by keeping on gen high and having the DL procs go on that. The perk in my opinion is only good if you are camping. If you are trying to play chill why bring a perk like that?
It's not worth running on Wesker for some tiles where you have to play as a m1 killer. Bbq and Lethal are better perks for that slot as you get that fast chase in the early game and bbq for when you get hooks. Would even rather run brutal+ enduring as an aggressive build. Brutal is actually good on Wesker because you can actually hit the last breakpoint where you can hit the survivor before they get to the next tile thanks to his power.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378722#Comment_3378722
just like killers aren't complaining about getting tot kills par match, but the fact that they are FORCED to play in that way if they want reach their goal, not to mention that some people should be punished for the toxicity showed in matches but since we know that devs on that matter won't ever punish someone for this (i did so MANY reports with screenshots as proofs, where people were using slurs, death threats and even some of them admitting that they were cheating... all of them unanswered obviously). The perfect examples was the 2 matches that i did 2 days ago with Wesker and another 2 that i did yesterday: one in rpd where i played with the survivor's rules (going for mixed hooks, not camping and not tunneling), got a 0/4 despite short chases (would have been shorter if wasn't for the usual dead hard that all the survivors in that match had) because they actually played to be optimal (finishing gens almost completed despite i was at 2 meters from them, bodyblocking for denying a successful chase, etc etc)... they had fun, but for me it was only frustrating seeing people tryharding so much and having their asses saved by perks (put also adrenaline into the equation)... 2nd day i still was rather annoyed for being punished for playing well so i went again for the usual playstyle that survivors hate (occasional proxicamping and focusing on tunneling the 1st survivor out from the game asap...). Perks, survivor's skills and items/addons were similar to the previous matches, but wanna know what changed? i actually had a better result on everything, both in kills (3/4 and 4/4) and in hooks (11/12 hooks and 6 hooks for the 2nd one cause in that match i wasn't giving importance to hooking people due to their speed at doing generators aganist the 6 and 4 hooks of the 1st day) by playing in a way that i DON'T ENJOY (but generally speaking i doubt that people enjoy this playstyle generally speaking) than by playing in the way that this game is "supposed" to be played.
P.s: this is another reason why i made this thread: if developers are giving tools for countering the unfun tactics that killer can use it could be ABSOLUTELY fine IF they'll compensate by making viable the GOOD GAMEPLAY, but this is not the case unfortunately and personally speaking i'm tired to being forced to play in that way in order to keep up the pace aganist good survivors... i play for having fun, not for work like streamers do... i should have also a screenshot of one of those matches...
for those that think that i'm not a good killer btw mind you that i was playing with a nerfing addon since usually i play with those ones for chilling (few people on this forum will probably have the guts to do those things btw)... a pity that the survivors that i'm aganist won't EVER do the same thing (especially since they'll abuse map offering whenever they had the chance)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/CBGAIBD6IVBP/img-20230324-075734.jpg
No actual good killers are complaining about how op survivor is or how they need to camp and tunnel to win games. Hexy is a good killer that sweats on lower tier killers and is complaining that they need to nerf killer because the role is disgustingly overpowered. He basically wins every game he plays as killer. He even wins games that he shouldn't but gets the 4k because he camps and tunnels. Even talks about how the game is boring right now because soloq is bad and killer is too easy.
Lets go over the picture. First off the team in the picture looks to either be a 4 soloq or 2 solo and a duo. Can infer this by looking at the survivor perks and see the top 2 scoring survivors running a more soloq build. I would call your build just bad. If you play at the soft cap you would know deadlock by itself is not a very good perk. This is because smart survivor teams will 99 a gen and have your deadlock always proc on that gen. You either run deadlock to camp or pair it with a regression perk like PR to counter the 99 strat. If you find DL to be strong as a solo game delay then you are just not facing good survivors. Lightborn is just XD why would you run that perk and enfury I find to not be worth the perk slots outside of m1 killers.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3375485#Comment_3375485
The ranged attacks are precisely the type of attacks that dh should work against. They cut chases very short, so a perk to counter them is a fair thing. Still requires good timing. And the counter play is to use the ranged attacks as an opener instead of a finisher.
As for the 6+seconds? I'd need to time it but the difference between a long range lunge and a point blank hit doesn't feel that large to me. Unless you're running a dh script it's impossible to reflexively block a basic (non lunge) attack with dh without guessing when killer will swing.
They cut chases very short, so a perk to counter them is a fair thing.
Killers with strong chase are balanced around that strong chase. DH nerfs this and makes these killers weak compared to where they are suppose to be. It actually isn't fair and I'm guessing it's one of the reasons why DH was already confirmed to be getting changes.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3365178#Comment_3365178
Would the middle paragraph work?
For what? Not sure what the context is exactly.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3365556#Comment_3365556
The strawman fallacy is attacking an argument that hasn't been made.
The OP posted the comp videos. The OP then posted an Otz video. That's literally the evidence underlying the argument. People on the other side pointed out why that evidence didn't back up the claim.
That's the opposite of a strawman.
The Oni videos are bad evidence because the Oni just powers through the DHs and still wins. If you don't even try and bait a DH its not evidence one way or the other on whether DH can be baited. It also shows that eating the DH is an acceptable strategy, especially with a killer like Oni.
And on top of that, 4 DH's were pulled off. A minimum of 6 were possible. That's a 66% usage/success rate among top players with a straightforward killer. Doesn't seem like a problem.
The Otz video is bad evidence because Otz clearly misplays it. It's also cherry picking because I've watched plenty of videos were he baits out DH easily.
The strawman fallacy is attacking an argument that hasn't been made.
Correct. Now can you please quote where I said comp or otz are irrelevant and not saying those results are and here is the reasons why.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3365556#Comment_3365556
The strawman fallacy is attacking an argument that hasn't been made.
The OP posted the comp videos. The OP then posted an Otz video. That's literally the evidence underlying the argument. People on the other side pointed out why that evidence didn't back up the claim.
That's the opposite of a strawman.
The Oni videos are bad evidence because the Oni just powers through the DHs and still wins. If you don't even try and bait a DH its not evidence one way or the other on whether DH can be baited. It also shows that eating the DH is an acceptable strategy, especially with a killer like Oni.
And on top of that, 4 DH's were pulled off. A minimum of 6 were possible. That's a 66% usage/success rate among top players with a straightforward killer. Doesn't seem like a problem.
The Otz video is bad evidence because Otz clearly misplays it. It's also cherry picking because I've watched plenty of videos were he baits out DH easily.
The strawman fallacy is attacking an argument that hasn't been made.
Correct. So now please show me where I said comp or otz are not relevant? I said the results of those matches are irrelevant and gave reasons why, not comp or otz in general.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3365178#Comment_3365178
If you don't think comp play is relevant to the discussion, don't bring up comp play.
If you don't think Otz is relevant, don't bring up Otz.
However these were the videos provided, people point out the problems with them, and then the anti-DH side wants to discuss anything but those videos.
Holy strawman
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I find it odd that hook grabs are still in the game. High level swf are able to bypass the mechanic by sending 2 players and it really only affects uncoordinated teams. Removing both those things would be pretty cool.
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@crogers271 said:
This thread is kind of hilarious. Even in the Otz video posted he gets a 2k and he clearly makes a mistake thinking the Nancy was going to pull off a perfect DH.
I don't really have an opinion on the DH fight. I don't run it as a survivor and don't find it that annoying as a killer (more powerful than sprint burst, but riskier). And while single videos don't prove anything, if you believe DH needs nerfed and in the videos you post the killer wins, yeah people are going to point out that you are undercutting your own argument.
In comp dbd survivors get massively nerfed. In the CC the rules say killer is restricted on add-on rarity and survivors are not only restricted in the same way but can't bring duplicated perks or items. So they massively nerf survivor and then players are using that the survivors lost the games as some counterpoint.
Otz getting a 2k is also irrelevant. Matchmaking in this game is capped at 1600 so players above this will always be viewed at 1600 for matchmaking purposes. The entire post is about baiting DH out and players just shift the goalposts.
How does players winning games matter in the context of DH being easy to bait out? The answer is that it isn't but players are grasping at anything to counter the perk being a problem. If x is a problem then y is the solution unless y is also a problem then it is z. Feels like a circular argument. If you are eating DH then bait it out. baiting out dh is easy you just need to get better. Top players are eating DH but they need to bait it.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364792#Comment_3364792
I mean, i just said numbers i thought were ok. I have no idea to know. I just wanted to know, since people want more reward for spreading pressure and less reward for tunneling if the concept for this perks would be something to consider or not
Think of fixing problems in a game as fixing a road. There are going to be potholes that you should be looking to fix. You want to do simple things like filling the potholes in and not tear the entire part of the road up and redo it. I see where you are coming from but you are looking to tear the road up instead of just filling the potholes in. Like think of a scenario where the killer is camping a player with PR. If I'm a fresh hook I should trade before that player gets to the next stage, but if that is a scourge hook then the killer just got massive value of that change.
CoB causes potholes by heavily rewarding camping hooks near gens that have progress. Going in a filling these holes are not only simple solutions but effective at making the game overall healthier. Same goes for pop or otr and even things like reassurance. These things promote healthy play so how to we make them more appealing for players to use in their builds.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364779#Comment_3364779
I mean, i am also ok with just putting POP at 15%. It was more of a thought experiment, to see if people liked the idea of killer perks being more rewarding for spreading pressure but diminishing return if you want to turbo tunnel someone.
Again, if bhvr and people prefer the easy solution of 15% total for POP, i am all for it. Thumbs up for me, bring back consistency for POP pls
The issue I would see with changing those perks like that would be the variance. Since you are doing massive damage to a gen it would swing the game largely in either direction on whether the killer was able to apply the regression to a gen or not. If you get a fresh down but then the survivors were able to get their high gens done then it basically did nothing.
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I think OTR needs looked into and would rather they change pop to 15% total(roughly 16 seconds of damage compared to old 20).
Thing with pop is you usually want to pair it with a info perk. The problems that pop had was with the perk synergy. Tinkerer with old pop was 60 seconds and players would sit on it until their tinkerer would proc and then use it to not only be told where to go but reset the tinkerer. PR had the issue where you were told where to go and the perk also did damage to buy you time to get there. With those perks no longer being an issue I think pop being changed would encourage players to go for more chases. Much rather a perk like pop than call of brine being the top tier perk.
COB is the opposite of pop. Instead of being encouraged to leave the area, kick and gen, and get into your next chase you are instead encouraged to camp. If you hook a player near a high gen then pop can be just kick the gen and find a new player to get another pop. With Cob you are encourage to actually afk at hook since you are doing a massive amount of damage to the gen. Also CoB has an issue with 3 gens unlike pop.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364139#Comment_3364139
Sorry, but I see those things as exactly the same. Camp and tunnel are things that most annoy survivors, but give dopamine rush to killers (via more wins). DH annoys killers, but give dopamine rush to survivors (when they pull of some spectacular game that would be otherwise impossible).
And if DH meant no speed boost - we would basically get to same situation as with current DS. It sure can help you - but you probably didn't really needed it if those 2s/1,8s would be enough to recover from that situation. Why would anyone use perk that is hard to get right and if it actually works - chances are high it will not help you anyway? Like we can maybe talk about shortening the speed boost - but it should still be enough to get to "something" - at least closest structure for the perk to make any sense.
Camping and tunneling should see nerfs. Devs should be nerfing unfun things for both sides and rebalancing the game. If their goal is to have killers at a 60% kill rate in general then the goal should be always looking to nerf or remove things that players dislike while maintaining the ideal 60% kill rate.
Things like using exhaustion for distance is a great example of just boring gameplay. It's much better to remove those things and buff survivors or nerf killer to maintain their goal for kill rates. The games would be more fun to play and ideally you would still see the same amount of kills or escapes.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363809#Comment_3363809
Cause it's not broken. It's unfun, annoying, and all around pain in the @, but it's playable. We're assuming you keep going for this "correct" play and trying to bait a dh the hissing way despite knowing that survivors can completely do whatever they need to in that timeframe. Maybe we're using the wrong words but the perk gives advantages in certain scenarios, which is what a handful perks are supposed to do.
I'd straight up no lie rather old DH as Demo. I think that perk was weaker than the current one vs the players I face and the total value they get from the new one is higher than the old one. I'm gunna say that broken is the correct term to use for the power state this perk is at vs Demo. Which is also the case for many other killers. Billy and Bubba are both killers where new DH is worse than old.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363598#Comment_3363598
If the survivor knows what they can get away with and use it effectively then that's again then being smart. They're going to use the tools and abilities at their disposal which is fair as the killer is going to use everything at their disposal to kill them. We're not going to touch the 7 second thing.
So demo can reduce sp effectively but what about piggy? Was the original debate about dh being more effective on certain killers? (Honestly we kinda lost track)
I don't see how being smart with a perk justifies it being broken to the point where if you get outplayed with that perk you are getting old DH. I don't really follow the logic there.
I think any killer that is prone to pre-leave is going to have massive issues with SB. I'm not saying that exhaustion perks are all fine outside of DH. They should fix all valid issues with the game. The game should be fun to play and balance after. If the kill rates are fine but the game is miserable then they need to make the game not miserable and then fix the kill rates after.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363704#Comment_3363704
It doesn't need to be the next patch. BHVR could just say "it will be changed sometime in 2023" or some other vague time frame.
Being told "discuss it more" heavily implies a decision hasn't been made, and gives zero commitment on whether or not further discussion would change this. I don't understand what statement BHVR made, has led you to believe that the perk would definitely be changed.
"nobody who spends 8 hours a day working on a game wants people to be upset about something, but things take time."
I take that as him being subtle that changes are coming. It's more of him not having a timeframe on when it will be changed.
I also find that the perk will 100% be changed because of how they have dealt will all issues where players were this unhappy. It's just logical that players having very unfun experiences in your game is something that needs to be addressed.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363631#Comment_3363631
I get it that things take time, but I still don't understand why we can't be told if dead hard is getting changed. Is BHVR still not sure if dead hard needs to be changed? We got an absolutely huge advanced notice that a survivor HUD might happen, and the eruption change was announced in advance..... but dead hard might be fine as it is, and we should just spend a few more months arguing about it on the forums?
And if we spend a few more months arguing about dead hard, but BHVR ends up deciding that dead hard is fine, then we get to feel like we wasted a whole bunch of time? And then we get a defeatist expectation that arguing about survivor stuff is a complete waste of time, and only pro-survivor complaints are important?
It's pretty clear DH is in need of changes and their track record of issues like this has always been to fix the problem. I think a reason they won't come out and say that it will be changed because it might not be next patch. If they say DH will change and then the mid chapter that is revolved around changing perks doesn't have it in there then players will be upset.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362995#Comment_3362995
Can the survivor not bait a demo into doing what they want? You can do something when in your corner pallet scenario, even if it's not something you would want to. As an aside we do eat a lot of dh when we don't care, and then they don't have dh with corner pallet and we have stacks of stbfl.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362976#Comment_3362976
So if survivors are putting you in a position where they can't be punished for a misplay that doesn't count for skill or brains while if you zone them into a similar position it is skill or brains? Is SB in the same place as dh as there's no way to reduce it's effectiveness other than map or other effects that equally affect dh?
Survivors can bait the Demo but the Demo is in control. If you are going to fake a window or pallet I can counter you. Good survivors can really conceal that they are going to bait but it at the end comes down to me falling for the bait for it to work. If I predict you will bait the pallet I always get the hit if you tried to bait it. It is only when I predict wrong where I get punished.
How is it fair if I bait the survivor into thinking I'm going to attack them and waste their parry yet they don't get punished for the mistake since the parry duration is the time of my attack window. This is why it basically is old DH for the survivor getting outplayed. What would make this situation fair is if a survivor can't throw pallets or vault windows for maybe 7 seconds if they failed their DH.
I can reduce SB by concealing portals near gens. There are ways to reduce how strong SB is vs Demo but that isn't the case for all killers. If DH was to die there would be complaints about SB. This would be in the same area where certain killers feel that they can't reduce how strong the perk is with their skill. This namely would be m1 killers most affected.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7CH6kjvqpg&t=1722s@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362964#Comment_3362964
So no duplicate perks, then?
Well, goes to show that the game is not balanced around survivor perks being exclusive, considering how hard survivors get stomped without being able to pick the top tier perks.
Crazy how survivors are under the same rules here. In comp survivors receive insane nerfs to allow killers to actually play the game. If they made it equal for both sides by saying you can just run anything yellow or under it's basically a 3-4 man out vs all killers outside S tier.
To then take the games OP posted and conclude that certain perks are fine because that side lost is hilarious. They heavily nerf survivors to make games more enjoyable since you are playing vs a wide array of killers. There is no reasonable information any player can get from a single set match in regards to game balance.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363152#Comment_3363152
I think they got tilted after the first DH, which is unfortunate.
These are clearly very good Survivors who have a lot of time in the game. Most Survivors do not (and cannot) play in that way.
This just seems like the sort of thing that people said about other perks. At the highest level, it's POSSIBLE that people can time their DH's perfectly and that you could be playing a Killer that has issues with that. But for most of the playerbase, it's not really going to happen that way.
Regardless, I suppose I'll retract what I said about Bubba, he can go through it, but perhaps it's not consistent. Still though, Lery's is a pretty bad Bubba map, I think.
I think while he can go through it you realistically are using most of your charges to get the hit in the first place making the speed boost avoid the follow-up.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmLvCjEXQ4s@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363094#Comment_3363094
Bubba chainsaws through DH, his swing doesn't stop.
Billy can get hard cucked, but, to be fair, I don't have any experience on Billy.
Oni can get kinda destroyed but he can also avoid it, easier than Billy imo.
Myers and Ghostface are both good against it. You don't want to be injured against a stealth Killer and Myers can choose who he pops his Tier III on.
Why do you INSIST that Survivors always land their DH? In reality, this is just survivorship bias. You only see the DH's that work or fail miserably. I'd say that only 1/4 of DH's actually land and out of those 1/4, I'd say 1/2 are meaningful.
First 3 mins are filler. Survivors get to counter chainsaw while not healing allowing them to do gens faster and last longer in chase
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3363067#Comment_3363067
I am honestly for a Forum Rule which would allow Threads about the same topic to be closed. Every Snowflake thinks that their DH-Thread is unique and worth posting, while in reality, it is not the case.
But for some reason people think that it gives any value if they post the same ######### which others have already posted again and again.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362929#Comment_3362929
Thank you for clarification
Yes we were as the argument was "In general the perk is problematic vs certain killer powers that are telegraphed. Vs these killers the perk becomes low risk/high reward" . Is dh a problem because its so used, is it a problem because of certain killers? Then we come back to this "For some killers it was way more broken of a perk compared to others. This is exactly how I see current DH." . To go back to the calm spirit deal, as doc it negates almost all his tracking ability (he still gets a score event and add ons can still track), it negates any sort of screaming build, and currently can invalidate a whole rift challenge (darkness revealed one where they need to scream due to the perk).
Id argue against it being irrelevant. When a huntress holds her hatchet to simply zone someone out thats effectively putting survivors in a similar deal. Survivors can't do anything but get hit or use dh then either fail dh or get hit a few seconds later due to being herded into wherever she wants.
This is our opinion but that doesn't sound like an outplay or counter. That is to us overly respecting both the pallet and perk, but again thats our opinion as we tend to just aggressively attack.
The survivor can bait the huntress into throwing or round the corner. I think that's more the same thing as the pallet vs m1 with DH. One side it is weighted in favor for but the other side can still do something.
The correct play is to not shred into a pallet and not hope your shred was the perfect timing to avoid the DH or stun. Identifying risky scenarios and actively trying to avoid risk when there is a safer play is a skilled thing for killer. If you aggressively attack as demo you will be eating a crazy amount of DH every game. I typically find 2-3 survivors on average run this perk.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362929#Comment_3362929
But this is what I fail to understand. You view the DH proc as you outplaying the survivor, with no regard for the survivor timing up the DH proc. And there's nowhere near the same energy dedicated by killer players to a Sprint Burst at 15-20 meters, a Lithe before chase even starts, or a Balanced Landing that puts the survivor halfway across the map. I'm not trying to use whataboutism. Those are just as impactful as DH, if not more, and they carry a fraction of the risk and counterplay potential. But killers absolutely lose their minds if they lose a 50/50 to DH. I don't understand where this perception comes from that DH is somehow more impactful, problematic, and less counterable than other exhaustions when they're used optimally.
Are we saying players shouldn't get value out of exhaustion perks at this point?
DH isn't balanced around it procing all the time. The perk is a high risk/reward which is not the case if you're getting baited into using your perk but not able to be punished for the mistake.
I think the pre-leave and pop exhaustion is not healthy for the game. Now if we taking in the vacuum of Demo I am able to burn your exhaustion and place portals in ways where I can tp back and zone you from areas where I don't want you to go. There is actual skill that I can do there to counter your perks. Now this isn't the case for other killers which is why it will be a problem if DH was deleted because it shifts the problem into a different area. The main problem I see with exhaustion in general is where the killer has no way to counter the perk/reduce its effectiveness in a fair manner.
I think you equipping a perk doesn't mean you should be carried when you fail to use it in a skilled way. I would even say that it would be called a crutch.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362806#Comment_3362806
What do you mean 'nerfed from top 4 perks to top 16'? That sounds like they got to use a wider array of perks.
Forced to use the top 16 perks instead of all 4 survivors getting the best 4 is nerfing the survivors. This means being forced to use the top 16 perks instead of the top 4 is a large nerf to the survivors
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362866#Comment_3362866
The first paragraph may need dumbed down for us as we're not sure the point is other than "just because we're technically correct doesn't mean dh is fine".
To us that sounds more like smart use of tools being able to put you in that position time and time again. Regardless you could use old dh to block a hit (which has been done at pallets even) but has changed so now instead of having a veriety of used for every situation it now has a more focused use.
We're not sure how your both countering dh while giving it the same use as old dh so we're going to need an explanation on that.
The first paragraph may need dumbed down for us as we're not sure the point is other than "just because we're technically correct doesn't mean dh is fine".
You are comparing DH to calm spirit. I'm saying that an exhaustion perk which all survivors run 1 of is not only the most used but overtuned vs certain killers. This is the same thing for old COH. For some killers it was way more broken of a perk compared to others. This is exactly how I see current DH.
To us that sounds more like smart use of tools being able to put you in that position time and time again.
Irrelevant on whether it is smart or not. The point is that good survivors will try to put themselves in these positions and the perk has no counterplay while giving absurd value when in this position.
We're not sure how your both countering dh while giving it the same use as old dh so we're going to need an explanation on that.
I bait DH by holding m2 and pair the HISS from Demo with flicking my camera up. If a Survivor is at a corner/pallet they DH which I don't attack into which is me countering them and yet their DH covers my attack window resulting in old DH. I outplay you and yet you get rewarded. That is the complete opposite of a high risk/high reward perk. If you failing it results in still being rewarded there was no risk involved.
The pallet play vs Demo with a failed DH is just eat the pallet. If you are able to bait the DH there typically is too small of a timing window which makes the correct play just getting the pallet instead of risking it. This is basically the same thing that old DH did.
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The faster your chases the more valuable info and gen regression becomes. Not really sure how you can have fast chases and struggle much on gens if you already have gen regression. Only way I can see games being hard with those low chase times are full chase build or struggling to get into chases.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362823#Comment_3362823
When we visit those threads most logical arguments are buried under alota whining.
The argument that it works well against certain killers kinda falls as certain perks counter killers anyway. Spine chill for stealth ones, calm spirit for doc (and lesser extent anything causing screaming like infectious fright oni).
In addition powers that are telegraphed are usually easy to dodge unless funneled. We're perfectly capable of dodging 5-7 non point blank hatchets.
DH was the best perk in the game, and for killers where you used it to dodge the hit instead of using it for distance we see new DH being buffed. This is to an extent saying old COH was fine. All you had to do was play a strong chase killer and you didn't really care about what COH did. That doesn't make old COH fine.
Players use DH when turning corners vs Demo. You basically just have to eat the perk. Good survivors understand where there is zero counterplay and try to put themselves in this position as much as possible. Even when I counter DH as Demo it can just result in what old DH did. Perk is gross when me outplaying it results in the survivor getting the old version of it.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362806#Comment_3362806
Then please explain your argument on why dh isn't ok.
For our 2 cents, dh is annoying but in a good spot for now, baring the amount of times it's seen and the occasional script users. Either eat through or bait, it requires both sides doing something for it to work (or fail)
I've already did this in multiple treads. Its redundant to go in every DH thread and post the same thing on why I find the perk to be a problem in my experience. I've even pushed back on players that say DH is fine because it was nerfed and they just don't counter my comments because you really can't.
In general the perk is problematic vs certain killer powers that are telegraphed. Vs these killers the perk becomes low risk/high reward.
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Since people are just finding any reason they possibly can to defend DH we can actually look at this terrible argument that because the killer won DH is fine.
In this tournament Survivor are massively nerfed from the top 4 perks to the top 16. They are not allowed to bring the same item and both sides are restricted on item rarity. Saying something is fine because killer won when there are massive nerfs for the survivors is a god awful counter to saying the perk is fine.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362549#Comment_3362549
But DH can have its value negated while SB can't. DH is just more demoralizing than SB.
In terms of strength DH and SB are on par. Imo
DH is usually used without supporting perks. Lithe, Sprint burst, and Overcome are all much better with a supporting perk.
Lithe wants windows to avoid using the speed at a tile and going into a dead zone
SB wants Fixated to counter the walking penalty
Overcome wants Lucky Break because of the amazing synergy
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@TheMruczek said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362371#Comment_3362371
This map can give you a shack window straight into another pallet, not to mention it is still pretty big
I would say that it isn't common to see shack chain. That's just rng being rng, and it being able to happen doesn't take away from all the good that the map has.
The map might technically be large but a heat map on player movement would show that players are not playing in the entire map. The main is mostly a dead zone and the play is all in front of the building. There also is no problem on this map with pre-leave and holding w. This is because the gen are more toward the edge of the map. I find the size of this map to actually be desirable.
Pallets on this map feel very strong but rewarding for killer, as breaking them creates dead zones. The fence pallet in the middle of the map is a great example of this. Super strong tile that when removed makes the middle of the map much weaker. Gives survivor skill expression of not throwing the pallet unless giving large value (death hook/going down) because it makes the middle much better for the killer. Feels good for killer as there doesn't seem to be high amounts of pallets so when you remove some there are now dead zones you can get hits later from.
The main windows I also find fair. The short wall window is mostly buying time for the survivor to cross the map and the long wall window is isolated from the rest of the map making it a time waster before getting hit/down. I think the gameplay/flow from this map is actually very, very good. One of the few maps that I don't care what killer or role I'm on when I get it.
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New Eyrie feels pretty fair for both sides.
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DH should be changed to work like MoM(allows to work with mending) and add a new buff called exhausted for when the killer procs DH
Exhausted- For the remainder of the trial you no longer benefit from Exhaustion perks
Killers no longer feel the need that they have to bait DH out since it can only add one health state per survivor and removes the gap between m1 and m2 killers vs the perk. Seems like a fair nerf while keeping the perk in a strong state.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362057#Comment_3362057
Would hooks or blood rush get rid of the exhaustion?
Nothing removes it. If you use DH with Adren then you can only gain a health state If you were successful in using DH.