Trollinmon
Trollinmon
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3362032#Comment_3362032
1) Dead Hard no longer works on M2 powers.
2) Dead Hard deactivates for the rest of the game if it is successfully used.
3) Dead Hard no longer gives a speed burst if the survivor is hit during the endurance window.
There you go. Triple nerf Dead Hard with all three of those things, so we can finally bury the perk.
Make it so when you DH successfully you are permanently exhaust for the remainder of the trial.
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@philward1953 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3361962#Comment_3361962
I feel like this is a problem with Demo though. Which really sucks as BHVR can't do anything to him anymore
I don't think it's isolated to just Demo. How do you outplay DH at tiles as Billy? If you use your chainsaw the survivor can just E it. Same thing should apply to Bubba. Huntress gets her hits near corners which allows DH to have a predictable window. Wesker can struggle the same way with DH. Knight/Nemesis are free 3rd/4th health states. As nem you can just E the zombie. Demo might be the most affect by the perk but I don't think its fine vs a bunch of m2 killers.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3361909#Comment_3361909
and the other day someone in these forums posted the same type of video but with DH failing each time. So, yeah goes to show just posting videos like that and this one don't really prove any point.
I bait as much as I can and most times when I'm successful on a bait the survivor gets the old DH for distance. Eating DH is pretty normal for Demo. The only thing you can do vs decent survivors is bait the shred when they are at the corner with flicking your camera as the hiss happens. This means outplaying the survivor rewards the killer with old DH.
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@qwertyuiopz666 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3361897#Comment_3361897
No dh has already been nerfed and won’t be nerfed again lol
What an amazing "nerf"
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To fix OTR you make the bt time much shorter but give the survivor a massive speed boost to compensate and then allow otr to work with bt. This fixes the issue with body blocking and doesn't allow killers to bypass the anti-tunnel perk by proxy camping and hitting the unhooked survivor right away.
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So medkits are insanely broken. If you actually look at what medkits do you see why survivors will do what they are doing. What makes medkits insane is that you don't require to find and have someone heal you. If it takes me 16 seconds to find someone and then 16 seconds for them to heal me then that took 48 seconds of gen efficiency to get healed(16x2+16). A medkit in comparison is 16 seconds with no heal speed. So if you are removing the finding part/massively reducing it then saving the medkit is usually ideal.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360594#Comment_3360594
1) math isn't exactly right here. Legion's movement speed in FF is 5.4 m/s ( more if he hits more survivors but for simplicity's sake let's take this) and their duration is 10 seconds. They have zero cooldown after hitting a survivor. Their fatigue last for 3 seconds at which they move at 2.07 m/s
Without Overcome survivors have a speedboost of 6.6 m/s for 1.8 seconds. So for that duration the survivor moves 1.2 m/s faster then Legion and in 1.8 seconds gain 2.16 m of distance on them. Then they go back to 4m/s and Legion catches up the 2.16m in 1.5 seconds. So in total the Legion is point blank in 3.3 seconds. not 6.3 seconds, then Legion goes through fatigue for 3 seconds where the survivor can make 5.79m of distance which takes Legion about 6.6 seconds to get a hit with full lunge.
So in total it takes Legion a total of 12.9 seconds to get within hitting range after FF and the survivor can make 56.28 m of distance. You should pretty much always find a loop or vault in that time. Even if Legion tries to cut you off. You still have an exhaustion perk at this point
With Overcome the survivors have a speedboost of 6.6 m/s for 3.8 seconds. So they gain 4.56m of distance on Legion who catches that back up in 3.25 seconds which means Legion is in point blank range in 7 seconds. Not 10.91 seconds. Everything else is the same at this point except that you are exhausted. Legion still has 3 seconds left to cut you off with Frenzy
So Overcome saves you 3.7 seconds... Any other exhaustion perk does better here except Sprint Burst and Dead hard but those work better after you are injured and Legion isn't using Frenzy. At which point Overcome does nothing
2) Why would they leave the pallet up? simple, a stun takes 2 seconds, in 1.1 seconds you have vaulted with Lithe. If they break the pallet then instantly which takes 2.34 seconds you have made 18.96 meters of distance before they can move again. If they break the pallet in that situation they break the chase. If they chase instantly you have gained 8.34m of distance which still gives you 10.8 seconds before they hit you with a lunge, with how pallet heavy those maps are you will highly likely find something and that other pallet will still be up
Yes you need to stun them but for DH you also need to time your endurance with the killers swing. It's harder to pull of then Overcome but being easier to use does not automatically make a perk better. This is something you can do regardless of injury. Not to mention that you can also use lithe normally if killers don't instantly break the pallet. And if they do instantly break the pallet i don't need an exhaustion perk anymore to win on The Game
3) Even if they bring offerings it still gives you a chance your offering beats them. To be fair Balanced Landing for me isn't far off from where i would put Overcome either. They are both inconcistant
4) I'm sorry but it really is a low tier exhaustion perk. If it was close to SB like you say it is you would see it way more
If you look at Nightlight stats it has a 2% usage rate... The only one lower then that is Smash hit. Lithe is 19.88%
Now i know Nightlight isn't official but it's a close enough estimate. the real usage rate isn't going to be so much higher that it will suddenly look like a often picked perk. People don't play it and in the mayority of the cases it's cause it's just not that good. And to completely make my point while researching this i found out that in 5.6 they "fixed" it so it doesn't work with endurance so the only redeeming quality i gave it of working with OTR apperently doesn't even work. They nerfed this perk and nobody even noticed it.
Again, just preference. If you like Overcome don't let my rambling stop you from enjoying it. Just stating the reasons why I think it's not that good. I do think it has it's uses in specific builds. I just don't think it comes close to the other exhaustion perks. Especially not Lithe or Sprint Burst
So overcome is a perk that 100% can see high play in the next mid-chapter. The first thing is you need to look at is what most likely will happen in the next perk update. We will probably see DH and COH nerfs with OTR being changed to work with base bt in some fashion. Now if we see those changes overcome would be receiving massive indirect buffs.
If we see a COH nerf then bond is going to replace the perk. Bond lets soloq players reset easy just like COH while also giving great general info. If this is the case then Lucky break receive a massive indirect buff since it gains more duration when you heal other players. This change for the perk was moot at the time since most healing is self thanks to COH.
A problem with overcome is needing to be healthy and going into the injured state. This is a serious problem right now since a killer can hit you off hook and now you have no exhaustion or anti-tunnel perk available. If they change OTR to work with BT that would help reduce this problem. OTR also gives IW which pairs very well with Lucky Break. GL chasing a ghost.
Finally, the last thing needed is a stealth meta. If you run stealth in this meta you are just pushing aggro onto other players. This is not ideal in the current state of the game but can change if we go into a more stealth meta. One of the reason for this change to happen is SB. SB is a very strong stealth exhaustion since you can get extremely good value when paired with fixated. If more players are running this build then running stealth in general is less punishing to your team.
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My games for killer are usually win all my games and survivor is losing them all. Just got done with a round of 5 soloq games and had 1 escape through gate. Running key+ left behind build now which doubled my escape rate.
I feel the only thing that you need to do as killer is run a meta build. Even low tier killers are mostly fine with strong builds and its really when you don't play well/ run weak builds where things get really out of hand with killer. I find if I'm getting real sweaty games I can make them chill by playing Nurse. Not really sure what to say if you are already playing a top killer and find your games hard in general.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360271#Comment_3360271
its because of matchmaking buffer. if your really good player like 1700+ MMR, you can get teammate that are 1600 MMR or lower. this can result in imbalance matches because you could be facing a killer that is 1800 MMR, your skill-level is of appropriate level for the killer but your teammate are 1500-1600 MMR player due to the mmr buffer which are vastly inferior to 1800 MMR killer player. they lowered buffer significantly because killer's complained that their matches were too hard/matchmaking was too strict. I don't really like the buffer being so low but it is whatever.
Oh I de-ranked at soft cap because of the amount of hand holding I saw every game with killers. My games for soloq are the worst they have ever been, and that's going back to release. I had the same day as the Nurse game a 3v1 vs huntress. She chased me for 5 gens tried face camping and then we 3 out her with her getting 1 hook. I will get other soloq players around my skill where we destroy the killer and my next game can have players clueless on how to play. My games at the soft cap for killer are also interestingly void of many soloq players. They even stated that soloq is around half the players and yet at the soft cap is mostly duo+
Also might I add that hexy and angrypug are both legacy players that stream. Hexy has been saying you need to be on a watchlist if you main soloq and pug quit the game as a soloq main.
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@SixShotOcelot said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360252#Comment_3360252
I am going to have to shout out my dude Devil_Hit11 for being more concise than my wordy ass.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360250#Comment_3360250
"This is part of team-based games. You lose and win as a team. Your teammate's failures become your own failures."
I believe all, or atleast most, PvP games you win and lose as a team.
As for the "a new player could never beat a diamond player in league". That is not true. What is more likely true is "a new LoL account cannot be matched against a diamond LoL account". As a new Lol PLAYER could jump on their friend's Diamond Account, get matched with other diamond players, then win by either being hard carried, having their team capitalize on opponents' mistakes, or maybe the opponents aren't trying (diamond players can play casually if they choose).
I think it is unrealistic (and incorrect) to make the assumption that "rank up = better matches". More data points should equal better matches regardless of whether you win and rank up or lose and derank.
Wait you think a new player on a diamond account can win games in diamond???????????
Buddy if you play a diamond account as a noob you can sit in fountain with the rest of your team since they already opened. Oh boy I sure can win the game vs a Jhin that has 8 kills at 12 mins and is 2 tapping me.
I think it is unrealistic (and incorrect) to make the assumption that "rank up = better matches"
Well that's fine that you think that but that was already the case back in the day. R1 for soloq was the best place to be. Push on reset and avoid near reset to get the best matches.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360167#Comment_3360167
I find the main issue with the current system is in soloq. I find that I'm completely at the mercy of how well my team can do. If they don't do gens, I lose. If they can't run the killer then the killer will never chase me and remove those players quicky, so I lose.
This is part of team-based games. you lose and win as a team. your teammate failure become your own failure.
Except in other team base games bronze players don't get free wins on plat+. If I don't play in an unfun way I lose regardless of my skill. Killer finds me, sees it will be hard to down and then leaves for the easier chases. If they can't hold their own then I lose. My games are basically the killer gets 1-2 hooks or my teams just last 20 seconds in chase. To have a system so bad that you are basically required to matchmake outside the game/bring entire builds around the bad MM is honestly unacceptable.
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@SixShotOcelot said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360167#Comment_3360167
Hey Trollinmon, not sure if you're trollin' but Peanits posts address most of these:
To your first question:
"It's crucial for a matchmaking system to have a clear win condition. The winners rating needs to go up, and the losers' ratings need to go down. If it's a draw, they stay the same (although this isn't common). If this is not the case and both people can win simultaneously, you end up in situations where people can endlessly climb in rating rendering the entire matchmaking system useless. It would quickly become a reflection of someone's playtime more than their actual abilities." Peanits
To your second question:
"And because there's no way to accurate take every factor into consideration, it does this by using a proxy condition. Yes, kills or escapes are not the only thing that makes a good player good! But if you're amazing in a chase and can last for several minutes, more often than not, that will lead to a win. If you play well, your chances of escaping will rise. Or if a Killer plays well, their chances of killing the Survivors will rise. This isn't something that's exclusive to Dead by Daylight either, just about every game will use a similar metric for matchmaking (even if it doesn't show it). You'd be hard pressed to find a game that successfully factors in dozens of things rather than using the outcome of a match." Peanits
To the third point:
Specifically, "the emblem system is completely independent. It solely focuses on your performance and your performance alone, it doesn't factor in how good your opponent may be." and you asked "But isn't that ideal?".
I'll try to answer this one. When trying to match players in a PvP games, you match based on defeating opponents in matches and moving up. Not by demonstrating particular & finite skills that are involved in the match/game.
- FPS Games - MMR based on wins, not headshots
- MOBAS - I believe while they may take KDA into consideration, there is a weighted effect or multiplier based on whether you win or lose
- Racing (do these have mmr) - If they have MMR probably based on who won/lost, not how many times you crash.
The thing those all have in common are that the overall MMR is comparing the opposing people and their results (winner(s) and loser(s)). If all people wanted to do was prove how good they are in isolation, not considering their opponent, shouldn't they be proving themselves in a single player game?
Hope that clears any confusion.
My entire point is that matchmaking doesn't work and you are completely at the mercy of your team. I had a game a few days ago vs a Nurse. I ran her for 3 minutes at the start before she gave up. She went to my team and 2 blink'd 2 players. She removed them from the game and the meg hid. I ran her for literally 10 minutes before she gave up and on me entirely and found the meg. She ended the game with a 4k.
So now I ask this one simple question. Show me a single PVP game that is does this. Imagine if League was so utterly broken that a new player is allowed to beat a diamond player. The entire issue here is that if my team is bad I lose. My mmr goes down and the problem is still there. Am I not better than this Nurse when I ran her for nearly 15 mins without going down? Well this system says no. It says that me running the Nurse for 15 mins and not going down means I'm trash because I didn't escape. I didn't escape because of my team and now I get the honor of getting even worse players. The old system allowed me to get a pip and move up in rank to get better games.
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@Peanits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360127#Comment_3360127
The safety pips certainly wouldn't have helped, but the bigger issue is that it's not possible to 'balance' that system in a way that also makes it roughly even for matchmaking. A Survivor can do things that earns them emblem points without the Killer losing any and vice versa, meaning the end result of the match could still be considered a win for both. Even if safety pips were removed and the system was perfectly rebalanced so that both sides cannot win simultaneously, the bar for pipping would have to be frustratingly high in order for it to even remotely work.
But even if that were the case, you would still have situations like the OP described. You may have been chased all match and done really well, but because you didn't fix generators or unhook anyone, the emblem system might spit out an unsatisfying result.
And in the process you'd lose one of the bigger advantages to the current system: Your result wouldn't be affected by your opponent's rank. Whereas the current system can look at a match and say, "This one might be tough for you, so we won't lower your rating by much if you do end up losing", the emblem system is completely independent. It solely focuses on your performance and your performance alone, it doesn't factor in how good your opponent may be.
In the end, this also has it own pitfalls. It would also feel very frustrating to finish a match after killing three Survivors only for the game to say, "Yeeeeah, but you didn't do it fast enough so I'm giving the win to the Survivors." - no system is perfect, and a very strict emblem system would likely be just as frustrating if not more.
A Survivor can do things that earns them emblem points without the Killer losing any and vice versa, meaning the end result of the match could still be considered a win for both.
Wouldn't that mean you both move up in rank and face harder opponents. Your team would be of higher skill along with the killer/ the survivors you face are now harder to down and do gens faster.
You may have been chased all match and done really well, but because you didn't fix generators or unhook anyone, the emblem system might spit out an unsatisfying result.
Wouldn't the emblem system actually have a better chance of removing this though? The system already gives credit for gen progress while in chase. Might not be perfect but better than what we currently have imo.
the emblem system is completely independent. It solely focuses on your performance and your performance alone, it doesn't factor in how good your opponent may be.
But isn't that ideal? Like if I move up in rank my opponent is better thus harder to do well in chases. I find the main issue with the current system is in soloq. I find that I'm completely at the mercy of how well my team can do. If they don't do gens, I lose. If they can't run the killer then the killer will never chase me and remove those players quicky, so I lose. I feel that the old system I could work towards getting my pips and it was less of an issue with getting weak teams. The new system feels very frustrating when playing soloq because I feel it's more of how bad/good my team is rather than my personal skill. If I'm better than the killer the killer can ignore me and chase the weaker links and then finish me off last bypassing my skill as a survivor.
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@Peanits said:
Will try to keep this short, but matchmaking is incredibly complex so apologies if this ends up being long.
There's a couple big misconceptions with MMR, and probably the most common one is how it estimates where you should be. No matchmaking system in any game- even games like chess which pioneered these ranking formulas over many years- is able to take a single match and accurately assess your abilities. There will always be too many factors at play for that to be accurate. Even if you use a different metric or a bunch of metrics, like chase time, hooks, pallets used, generators completed, healing, etc., there are still outside factors that need to be considered. Was your opponent (the Killer in this case) playing well, or were you only doing well because the were making a lot of mistakes? Likewise, did you do poorly because they're amazing at the game? Did your teammates do their part to help ensure your good plays worked, or did they let you down?
Even if you had a human sit there and watch your match, it would still be impossible for them to stick an accurate number on you after watching just one match. The best they could do is a ballpark estimate. They don't know you, they haven't seen you play against higher caliber/lower caliber opponents before. They only have this one match to go off of.
The matchmaking system is no different. It cannot tell how amazing you are from a single match because that is an impossible task, so it doesn't even try. Instead, the system is designed to look at your performance over the course of many matches. This way, due to the law of averages, you will gradually move towards the place where you should be. You might lose two matches and win the next four. You're up overall from where you started.
And because there's no way to accurate take every factor into consideration, it does this by using a proxy condition. Yes, kills or escapes are not the only thing that makes a good player good! But if you're amazing in a chase and can last for several minutes, more often than not, that will lead to a win. If you play well, your chances of escaping will rise. Or if a Killer plays well, their chances of killing the Survivors will rise. This isn't something that's exclusive to Dead by Daylight either, just about every game will use a similar metric for matchmaking (even if it doesn't show it). You'd be hard pressed to find a game that successfully factors in dozens of things rather than using the outcome of a match.
This is also important because the matchmaker's sole job is to find you matches where you have a roughly equal chance of winning or losing. It doesn't care how you do it, whether you played super well or you used every crutch in the book. It's a cold, emotionless machine that's solely trying to put you up against opponents where your strategy- whatever that may be- works about half of the time. It is not trying to pass judgement on you as a player, not trying to make you feel bad for losing or claim you're amazing for winning. It's simply looking at the facts: If you won, rating goes up, if you lost, rating goes down. And over the course of several matches, you'll almost always end up moving in the right direction.
This is a big part of the reason why your rating is not shown. It's not meant to be something you obsess over or focus on. It's sole purpose is to find you fair matches. It will go down sometimes when you don't feel like it should, but it will also go up more often than not if you are truly below where you should be.
It's crucial for a matchmaking system to have a clear win condition. The winners rating needs to go up, and the losers' ratings need to go down. If it's a draw, they stay the same (although this isn't common). If this is not the case and both people can win simultaneously, you end up in situations where people can endlessly climb in rating rendering the entire matchmaking system useless. It would quickly become a reflection of someone's playtime more than their actual abilities.
The emblem system is actually a perfect example of this. Since emblems are independent of the other side's performance, it's possible for both the person who 'won' and the person who 'lost' to pip. The result was exactly what was expected: By the end of a month, pretty much anyone who played enough would find themselves in the higher ranks because on average they were pipping more than they were depipping. This meant: A) By the end of a month, a large number of people with a wide variety of skill levels were being matched together, making matchmaking feel random, and B) By the end of a month, the lower ranks (people who had not played much) would suffer from excessively long queue times since the majority of people had already ranked up past them. If the matchmaking system is producing long wait times for some and horribly uneven matches for others, it's failing to do its job.
In short, don't sweat it if you "lose" by the matchmaker's standard. It expects you to lose some matches, and it knows that you will win matches to offset those losses. If you think you did well, you did well. Don't let an invisible number that you can't see take that away from you.
By the end of a month, pretty much anyone who played enough would find themselves in the higher ranks because on average they were pipping more than they were depipping.
Isn't this an issue with the safety pip system though? The problem with the old system was that you really couldn't lose pips. Thus even if you weren't very skilled you would slowly climb. What this did was make the early reset of going back to green ranks and quickly getting to red ranks result in fairly solid games but as time went on in the month the quality of games quicky fell. Isn't removing the safety pips and making it harder and harder to pip the best solution to matchmaking in this game? Focusing on the smaller things like chase and doing gens instead of letting your team die while you hide in the corner waiting for hatch. I feel that working on the grade system would be overall better for the games health than a kill/escape system.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359664#Comment_3359664
Yeah, putting a guard in a loop is the most skillful play of the century.
You don't want balance, you just want to not have to deal with the perk. And apparently making the best killers in the game better is the solution people say its fair.
What a BS statement, i haven't seen a rise in M1 killers because of DH, oh wait because those M2 killers can make up for the lost time. Its almost like every single S, A and B tier killer are all M2 killers with exception of pinhead.
Poor nurse gets countered by DH, should have been playing wraith. Thats how you get easy Ws apparently.
Yeah, putting a guard in a loop is the most skillful play of the century.
Knight is one of the weakest m2 killers in the game. Also, when you get a guard on you exhaust counters it.
You don't want balance, you just want to not have to deal with the perk.
You mean the undisputed best perk in the entire game that saw a buff? It is literally a nerf if they reverted DH when I'm playing Demo. The best perk in the entire game was buffed in a patch where they were nerfing all top used perks. I literally see this perk 2-3 times in every game, and vs a killer like Demo is mostly a free 3rd health state.
Poor nurse gets countered by DH
Nurse struggles with SB+ fixated btw. Fun fact Nurse struggles with stealth. SB is the best stealth exhaustion. Sounds more like a crutch for DH than a issue with balance.
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@BlueHorkew said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359243#Comment_3359243
And why should killers that already have so many advantages over regular M1 killers get to not deal with a perk?
That makes no sense
DH becomes free vs certain m2's while not vs m1. Why should m2 killer that requires higher skill be reduced to an m1 power level because of a perk. The entire problem with it is that it acts much more like a 3rd health state vs a killer like Demo compared to a killer like Trapper. Removing the perk from m2 fixes the large glaring issue with the perk(free health state vs m2).
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359628#Comment_3359628
A lot of complaints doesn’t mean the complaints are valid.
Correct! That's why you investigate to see why there are complaints. Like lets go over a scenario with Nurse. Every day there are floods of complaints about Nurse. When the devs look into the data they pick the top 1%. Now lets say they see Nurse is at a 72% killrate while killers are around 65%. Now lets say they look further and find that when Nurse runs recharge/range she actually goes from a 70% to now 80%. Is Nurse fine at a 80% killrate when most killrates at the top 1% are 65%? All the complaints are doing are showing players are not happy with something. The data is what shows an issue is present.
I'm not sure if you were here with old Object of Obsession. Killer players were complaining pretty hard about the perk. Almo(balance dev) went on stream saying he didn't understand why players were complaining because when he pulled the data its was a low pick rate and something like a 40% escape rate. Players overwhelming stated that it's because players feel the need to tunnel the object player out because of comms. If I recall correct that next patch had a Object rework. It easy to see that when he looked at the escape rate for the team when object was in a game there was a clear issue going on that made sense on why killers were complaining.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359565#Comment_3359565
Yeah, I don't understand why BHVR released statistics that said Nurse wasn't overperforming overall, and Nurse wasn't overperforming at the top 5%, but then she needed a triple nerf anyway? Are balance decisions being made based on how many complaints something gets, regardless if the complaints are valid? If the statistics were correct, then a lot of players have obviously found decent counterplay for many of the Nurse players they face.
Are balance decisions being made because the game refuses to let people see MMR values? If matchmaking matches survivors with a Nurse player that is way above their MMR range, and the survivors lose badly, will the survivors think Nurse is overpowered, when in reality the Nurse player won because they had a much higher MMR rating?
They already said why Nurse was getting changes. They found hotspots at the low and high end in regards to add-ons. If they heard lots of complaints then there is reason for those complaints. When they pulled up the data they found places where it was showing there was a large disparity with running certain add-ons vs not. They change those add-ons and now there is no complaining about Nurse. Still a top killer that is now in a more healthy spot.
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@Riski said:
Nurse was release to be the "fix" to an incredibly broken dbd. Infinites, insta heals and the works and Nurse was the only killer who could compete with good survivors who knew these ticks and was balanced by being hard to play. Her strengths of good chase helped against good survivors but didn't help with the more traditional, immersed hide and seek most players preferred. Over time this has changed as learning nurse became easier with guides and help from those who has already done it and these options being significantly less power, with nurse also being nerfed, and people as a whole focusing less on immersion and more on looping and competing.
Dbd's longevity early would of been in jeopardy without a killer like this to band aid the game's problems without hurting the upload cycle of content, although I believe perception on how powerful killer's should be now would probably be better without nurse. Do I think modern dbd would be better if Nurse was replaced with a different killer when she came out, yes. Would we have modern dbd without release nurse, maybe not. Overall nurse is an old killer who is arguably outdated in the ways that make her strong who was designed for a different game of hide and seek who beat looping, which is what was needed back then.
Nurse was release to be the "fix" to an incredibly broken dbd. Infinites, insta heals and the works and Nurse was the only killer who could compete with good survivors
Spoken like someone that wasn't even playing back then. The game on release was a hide n seek game. The infinites were brought up more in July with Nurse being released the next month. They took literally one month to fix the bugs were you got stuck in the hook and on the hill. Bugs that would require players to dc to get out of. But yes they made Nurse in a few days to counter the problems on release.
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Honestly just watching a bit of the video already shows the bias he has. SB always gives value but DH doesn't? if the killer has to wait 5 seconds for the dh that's massive value for the perk failing. DH counters certain killer powers along with it having no real downside and being versatile.
I also highly doubt we go into a SB meta. Lithe is used 50% more than SB already and DH is almost double lithe. What most likely will happen is Lithe would be top with SB and overcome at half the pick rate of lithe.
I would be fine if they made DH not work with special attacks. Lets see how many players use the perk when it isn't a free 3rd health state vs a bunch of killer powers.
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I have this weird bug where a map offering crashes my game. Such a shame too since I would love to play on that Badham offering =(
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Why bother in soloq? I had 4 games today where I had 4 5+ min chases. Of those 4 games I escaped once. What is the point in trying if you lose either way?
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3357228#Comment_3357228
i agree survivors should be lasting for longer than 30 seconds but the game is being balanced to the lowest mmr player base. I mean the base kit unbreakable ptb was going to be a standard at one point.
The basekit unbreakable was because the mori change was a massive buff to slugging and that was their counterweight for it. The entire problem with tunneling is that killers can hit you off hook and eat your otr and bt at the same time. A 30 second ds does nothing to fix the issue. They are even aware of the issues surrounding this since they talked about how basekit bt was intentionally on the safe side for its release. The only reason you make base bt safe is because you are aware players will body block with it.
The only solution I find to be effective and easy is making otr work with endurance and changing bt to be a small endurance off hook with a massive speed boost. That solves the problem of body block with bt and otr as the backup and killers proxy camping and hitting your bt right away and countering otr.
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@Skill_issue said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3357192#Comment_3357192
1.no hit detection code is already there after a survivor gets hit, just make that instance = true after an unhook
2.I agree with forgot to put the ds timer to avoid the old unbreakable/ds scenarios
3.Yeah map sizes really need to be looked at or if not the size at least the window/pallet spawns for some maps
Pretty sure you get I-frames and that wouldn't work with you getting off hook.
30 second ds is the same as 0 second ds. Not only should you be lasting longer than 30 seconds but the killer will always wait out the basekit 30 second ds than eat it and give you 16 meters of distance. All that would be doing is making it a slight inconvenience for the killer tunneling you. The problem is otr is not good enough of a deterrent for tunneling as shown by the uptick in complaints and massive reduction in the usage of the anti-tunnel perk.
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1 isn't easy to add and would require them to code and do a bunch of testing to implement something like that. Reducing base bt endurance and massively increase the speed is the simple solution that solves that problem.
3 means you just body block and run unbreakable to abuse base ds. Anti-tunnel perks must come at a cost and can't be free basekit things survivors gets.
5 low tier killers are in general fine. Low skill expression and are designed for new players. The only issue that low killers need resolving is how badly designed the maps are. Sadly I don't think that will ever be fixed since it has been literally an issue since 1 month after release.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3356112#Comment_3356112
That's because OTR, the alleged new anti-tunnel perk, is, itself, hard-countered by tunnelling. If you get slapped during the basekit BT, OTR gets disabled.
The move from DS to OTR was an absolutely terrible one, as it's worse on both sides. OTR is significantly weaker against both tunnelling and camping, but it's better at punishing killers who do not use those methods. It's a double whammy of failure.
My suggestion: A survivor that's pulled off the hook gets 60 seconds of 'Desperation', which removes collision with the killer. Desperation is immediately removed upon performing a conspicuous action. If a survivor is picked up by the killer while they have Desperation, they stun the killer for 3 seconds, and Desperation is removed.
Then: DS increases the duration of the stun from 3 to 6 seconds.
OTR: Reworked. Now, instead of granting endurance, it instead removes scratch marks, grunts of pain, pools of blood, and blocks aura reading. Total information black-out.
That way, there's innate anti-tunnel, it can't be used offensively, DS goes back to being useful, and OTR gets to be a higher risk, higher reward anti-tunnel perk.
You need to keep it simple on changing it. The base for otr is fine but it needs fixing, so the solution to that is to fix the cracks in the foundation and not remove the entire thing and pour a new one. The base bt should be cut in half for the endurance and double the speed boost you get; this would be a 5s bt with 20% speed boost for 10s. Then let otr work like mettle of man ( stacks with endurance) and remove the IW from it.
The IW on otr is terrible game design because you tell the killer you have the perk. This also means that since you are telling the killer you have it that you also say when you don't. This was also problem when they changed ds from god mode to an anti-tunnel perk and players stopped using it. If there was no obsession in the game the killer knew there wasn't ds in play and would tunnel everyone.
The last thing I would do is make otr deactivate when fully healed. This is another precaution so players don't take this anti-tunnel perk and offensively use it to punish killers that are not tunneling.
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The replacement for ds is otr. On nightlight.gg it shows otr being ran 10% of the time and the stats for 6.1 changes had ds at 50%. So players are complaining about tunneling being stronger while not running the perk that is designed for that purpose. It's pretty glaring that otr is not a sufficient perk at punishing tunneling. The solution to this is make otr actually punish tunneling and see where that goes.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3352533#Comment_3352533
Cant even recall the last time Ive chainsawed a DH ngl, so not sure what youre on about there
How do you curve at a tile and hit the survivor without them getting to the corner? Do you just use the chainsaw for mobility and faster pallet break?
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@Gamall said:
More than half of these shreds would have been successful if you had simply waited half a second longer
Only see the ones in the open/TL walls. Most of the shreds are at pallet/corners which is where it is bs for killers like Demo, Billy, and Huntress.
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He was a killer that had to wait 7 seconds before he could proceed to being an m1 killer. Old wraith before the first rework was much better, and he was terrible( had no speed boost out of power without windstorm and cloak was only 129% I think).
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I can't wait for the changes. I expect DH, CoH, CoB, and Eruption to all see nerfs with OTR seeing a mini rework to allow it to actually work as a true anti-tunnel perk.
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@MadEyePopo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336564#Comment_3336564
Map of the Realm and Gritty Lump are must-haves. What they should do is buff the detection distance and speed of the base guards because without these 2 add-ons my guards hardly have a chance of even detecting someone let alone catching them.
You find value in Gritty Lump? I find that letting the guards patrol areas while I do other things really isn't the thing the killer excels at. Keep in mind Gritty does nothing to help down a survivor in chase. The speed only lets the guard patrol for the spot from where you spawned them and your location that you started the cast.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3338607#Comment_3338607
that because a lot of survivor play poorly vs guard and allow you to corral the survivor in favor positions as knight. If you getting hit with his guards, then your facing really chill survivors because the guard should never hit survivor with current stats. the only time the guard should ever hit the survivor is if survivor purposely uses dead hard against the guard for sprint burst. I have done experiment where I try to get 1 hit on guard when I win the game during EGC. The end game survivor can easily outrun all 3 guards with no effort whatsoever.
It's more that if they made snipes also give hits you can injure and then snipe for the easy down. Unlike Spirit you really can't dodge a snipe if the Knight has an idea of where you are since it's only roughly 3 seconds from start to finish to get a guard summoned 32m away. Can't really hide in those scenarios.
I am sure you avoid guard chases. It is just that right now, why bother to avoid any guard chase when guard chases is irrelevant in most cases. Survivors only attempt to try avoid these guard chases when guard chases start to punish them.
that because a lot of survivor play poorly vs guard and allow you to corral the survivor in favor positions as knight.
I feel that in certain situations that can be true. However, I really don't see how the survivor already on one side of the map can somehow not let me keep closing the distance while the guard forces their movement in predictable manners.
It is just that right now, why bother to avoid any guard chase when guard chases is irrelevant in most cases.
I find that I either want to use the guard to waste the survivors time or use it to help corral the survivor into an unwinnable scenario. I find that when I have a guard with me in chase I get good value from it. Even if it results in not getting a hit its getting them typically closer to edge map where I will get my hit.
If you getting hit with his guards, then your facing really chill survivors because the guard should never hit survivor with current stats.
I find that if the assassin is in chase with me I do see it getting hits and not feeling the survivor had to play poorly for that to happen. I would agree that the other 2 are less threating in chase in terms of actually getting a hit.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3338276#Comment_3338276
spirit comes out of her power immediately and hits you. The knight comes out of his power and then summons a guard. I think reason why guards were slow in PTB was because I think the idea was to invert the cast times of those two killers. Knight can go into his power and move quicker but guard takes a while to spawn so you could potentially shift-w it while spirit has cast time to enter power but she exits the power immediately. Its just that I think people had trouble using the ability because it was a bit too difficult to start guard chase, so a lot of people thought knight sucked in the ptb. A lot of types of buffs he is been getting has been about making it easier and easier to get guards into chase in the past two changes. As I said, the problem for him is not getting guard into chase. Its him getting rewards for starting a chase. You can make argument that its too easy to get guards into a chase now but I am not entirely sure that is true more so that survivor have little reason to avoid them so everyone tanks every guard chase as it has no real significant on anywhere besides the corner of the map.
In term of 18 meters detection range, The guards themselves are meant to have different strengths and weaknesses. In the case of Jailer, the jailer is suppose to be weak in the chase and is meant to be countered by hold-w away from him. he is corralling 2vs1 type guard which is current play-style that dominates the knight's current gameplay. The other two guards which are Assassin and Carnifex are meant to counter hold-w. The assassin favours grabbing the banner and Carnifex favours avoiding the chase because his banner spawns later. that is my interpretation of his ability. You are meant to do different counter-play to defeat each guard. with how the knight currently is, there is no reason to change your strategy vs each guard because all 3 of them are countered by shift-w and running away. that is my current problem for why I think the knight is underwhelming for a killer.
One of the reason why I think he potencial as killer is that many killer rely on survivor to make mistakes. With the knight, there is more of reliance for knight to make mistake for you to avoid a guard chase. survivor still have some control the chase but not completely. this is why I think if knight becomes strong, survivor will dislike playing vs him. they already dislike playing vs him even though this version of the knight is cakewalk to escape from.
It's more that if they made snipes also give hits you can injure and then snipe for the easy down. Unlike Spirit you really can't dodge a snipe if the Knight has an idea of where you are since it's only roughly 3 seconds from start to finish to get a guard summoned 32m away. Can't really hide in those scenarios.
As I said, the problem for him is not getting guard into chase. Its him getting rewards for starting a chase.
I've feel like I get rewarded with long range snipes. It doesn't result in the guard getting the hit but me using the guards' aura and then doing deep cuts to pinch or corral the survivor. I feel it is worth doing long range snipes as long as the survivor isn't in the middle of the map, and I find no risk in really doing them since they are fairly high success rate.
they already dislike playing vs him even though this version of the knight is cakewalk to escape from.
I've been farming dc's on him. I even ended up in a game where I had two players dc after having a fun and interactive chase. I play killers like Nurse and Pinhead and I get nowhere near the amount of dc's on them compared to Knight. I think it really pushes people of the edge when I stand there watching the AI down them in a corner. 😂😂
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3338362#Comment_3338362
Nothing is broken if an easier to use thing doesn't suck. All Killers should be B-Tier to A-Tier, without absurd outliers in every direction. Difficulty of playing the Killer doesn't matter after that; people are going to pick what they like, for whatever reason that is. Yes, you're going to get the people who go straight to the best thing for winning at the least difficulty, but guess what? If the game was balanced, that wouldn't matter. Because this is an asymmetric game, and the only thing that matters is what the actual power level is.
That is incorrect. If a bump logic Blight is only slightly better than Freddy then either Freddy is broken or Blight is terrible.
Why? If Freddie was improved to not be so much worse than Blight, why does that mean he's broken? Or that Blight is terrible?
Yea I know what I'm saying. I mean it really is absurd to even think that Blight would be fine balance wise if he was only slightly better than m1 killers. Even if we go to Demo vs Blight there should always be a large gap there since the skill required to play both prefect are night and day different.
Why. Should. There. Be. A. Gap.
You're not arguing why there should be a gap, or why this is justified. You're asserting that more difficult needs to be stronger, because it's more difficult. Your argument is a closed circle with its entire reliance being on 'people won't play the harder thing as much if it isn't'. Which doesn't even matter? Pick rate is not the be-all and end-all.
My premise is simple: if the game can be more balanced, it will be more fun in general (not so many utter stomps on both sides, and inevitable unwinnable matches). For the game to be more balanced, there needs to not be a yawning chasm in Killer power where you can't do anything to address overall Killer gameplay because you'd buff something that doesn't need it. Therefore, more mechanically complicated Killers, by necessity, need to be somewhere in line with the easiest ones to play.
If something that is low skill is at the same power level for something that is medium skill then something is wrong. The problem is a lot of the lower tier killers are simple; requiring them to make them more robust to really make them stronger.
Why? If Freddie was improved to not be so much worse than Blight, why does that mean he's broken? Or that Blight is terrible?
So Blight is very hard to play perfect while Freddy is not. You are basically making the 99.9% of players equal to the .1%. If they did this all you would see is Freddy every single game. There is no difference between a Freddy that has 1k hours on him vs 10k. That isn't the case for Blight.
You're not arguing why there should be a gap, or why this is justified.
The justification for there being a gap is the killers that are low tier are all super easy to play and don't have much skill expression. The higher tier killers are the complete opposite from this and makes no sense to have an easy killer be basically the same as a hard one in terms of power level. The more skilled you are the better the higher tier killers are since they allow you to express that skill while low skill killers don't have a high enough ceiling for you. Buff these lower killers doesn't make the ceiling higher just more raw power making them OP(require less effort and skill for equal outcome of other more difficult killers).
My premise is simple: if the game can be more balanced, it will be more fun in general
Making low tier killers win games vs better opponents isn't balanced one bit. The more skilled survivors are balanced vs the higher killers which require more skill.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3338315#Comment_3338315
Because you like their power and want to use it. Or their design.
Your starting point is completely flawed. Your entire argument is based on "harder should be stronger otherwise nobody will play it", but people play a bunch of things that are more difficult without them being stronger (both in this game at times, and in others), whether because of external reasons, or they just enjoy the mechanical complexity.
If the killer is more difficult it should always better than easier to play killers, that's basic balancing. If you don't do this then the easier killers are actually better since they can hit their cap at a much easier and consistent way compared to their harder counterparts.
No it shouldn't. All the Killers should be in a similar ballpark. The most complex ones will probably edge it out in the end because of weird interactions and unexpected power usages, but you absolutely don't want to aim for a stratified game where you set out to punish people for not wanting to play a particular Killer.
Think about what you're saying: if you won't play a more complicated Killer, if you don't like that power or something about the Killer, you automatically deserve to lose more games. Because your character choice is bad and has to stay bad.
Your entire argument is based on "harder should be stronger otherwise nobody will play it"
Yes because that is how balancing works. It is even like that so much that you even see this in shooters. If a gun is easy to use and high dps it will always be meta. Good balance will always be harder things being the strongest when mastered while the easier being the weakest. Players usually don't gravitate towards badly balanced things(weak). I don't see what is wrong with that unless you think I mean nobody playing it in a literal sense. Obvious players will play it but if it is badly balanced most will avoid it.
No it shouldn't. All the Killers should be in a similar ballpark
That is incorrect. If a bump logic Blight is only slightly better than Freddy then either Freddy is broken or Blight is terrible.
Think about what you're saying: if you won't play a more complicated Killer, if you don't like that power or something about the Killer, you automatically deserve to lose more games.
Yea I know what I'm saying. I mean it really is absurd to even think that Blight would be fine balance wise if he was only slightly better than m1 killers. Even if we go to Demo vs Blight there should always be a large gap there since the skill required to play both prefect are night and day different.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3337783#Comment_3337783
What? That's an inherently terrible argument.
You can't have your game balance be based around the complexity of an ability chosen before the game starts. That's not a viable balancing strategy. "No matter how much you like playing this ability, or how good you get with it, there should be games you'll always lose because it's not as fiddly and unnecessarily difficult as this other power".
Difficult. Should. Not. Equal. Stronger.
It is, in fact, an abdication of game balance.
You can't have your game balance be based around the complexity of an ability chosen before the game starts. That's not a viable balancing strategy.
But you should and this game is balanced in that way. If Freddy is equal to B tier killers then why would I play a B tier killer that isn't Freddy? Freddy is now better because he is the same in power but easier to play. You then would just be doing power creep where the B tier killers that are harder now need to be buffed to justify their higher difficulty. This then repeats in A tier where you end back to square one.
If the killer is more difficult it should always better than easier to play killers, that's basic balancing. If you don't do this then the easier killers are actually better since they can hit their cap at a much easier and consistent way compared to their harder counterparts.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3337819#Comment_3337819
Sure that is excellent point. There is always going to be killer that are 1% better than another killer. there is also something called player bias where player will favour one advantage over another even if both advantages are similar in strength when used correctly. In regard forever freddy vs demo, forever freddy was a perceived top-tier perk synergy for killer that was not particular difficult to use but had high returns in effectiveness. A strategy that is strong can still exist in a killer but perhaps should not be top tier. Just strong enough you can do well with said killer vs equally competent opponents if your competent with the killer. In other words, killer should be the best they can be. do not try compare killer with another. Like I said, there is always going to be player bias in preferred killers.
With demo, I have mixed feeling about demo. I feel like everyone rates demo very highly as balanced killer but I also feel like he does not perform very well in my experience when playing vs him and playing as him. Its weird. I think community overrates and underrates him at the same time. The larger issue is that middle-tier killers in the game are in fact weak killers in the game because the bar is set so low for killers in the game. My opinion in regards rating of killer is that killers can have ratings that range from weaker to stronger but the amount between best and worst should be lower in my opinion. You do that by trying to make killers the best they can be. No killers will truly ever be equal to one another.
I don't see how you wouldn't look to get your hit and then use a long patrol to then finish the survivor. How would you hide vs a Knight when you are injured? It would be path of least resistance where you want to injure and then long range patrol to get the free down.
that is like whole spirit phase-walk argument all over again. How do you hide vs Spirit phase walk when your are injured? Your post seems to think that it is just game-over at that point. You attempt to make most distance as possible away from the knight as his orb approaches you and then you try mask your sound and footsteps to make it as difficult as possible for the killer player to track you so that placing guard is as difficult as possible. Your goal should be to predict orb pathing and avoid guard detection radius. Incoming the survivor mains that say that "Knight has no counter-play, if the killer has good headset, he can place perfectly on top of me and the guard always hits me, no counter-play, reeee".
that is like whole spirit phase-walk argument all over again. How do you hide vs Spirit phase walk when your are injured? Your post seems to think that it is just game-over at that point.
How do you hide from Knight when it takes around 3 seconds to do a max patrol while also having a detection range of 12-18m? It takes Spirit half the time to even get into her power and isn't just end power when you are next to survivor for hit. On top of that Knight speed is roughly double the speed Spirit has while in power.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3337783#Comment_3337783
killer is should not aim to be low/mid tier. they should aim to be high tier always. how easy the killer is varies for how well survivor plays vs the ability. I do not believe the game to be that black and white when you say the ability has little to no counter-play. there should be grey zone. Bare in mind that survivor do not necessarily need to have 100% perfect odds in avoiding the killer power hits to neccassary escape the killer. he will still be commander type character that uses guards to assist in downing survivors. The difference is that his gameplay will be less one dimensional. He will have more instances and opportunities to get the survivor to make a mistake for his guard to get a hit.
Having a variety of skill levels for killer is good. Some killers are going to require more effort than others and the ones that require more effort should always be stronger. If that isn't the case then there is no reason to even touch the harder killers since it requires more effort to play while giving less/same reward. A perfect example of this was forever Freddy vs Demo. In what world would you play Demo when Freddy was stronger and easier to play.
he will still be commander type character that uses guards to assist in downing survivors. The difference is that his gameplay will be less one dimensional.
I don't see how you wouldn't look to get your hit and then use a long patrol to then finish the survivor. How would you hide vs a Knight when you are injured? It would be path of least resistance where you want to injure and then long range patrol to get the free down. There wouldn't be much more in terms of skill imo, just more power. The concept of the killer simply leaves little room for counterplay and the weakness for him comes from the fact that the time to down is bad. From how I see it you would just be entirely looking for a long range patrol downs and not the concept of trying to pinch the survivors with the assistance of the guards.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3337756#Comment_3337756
killer's should aim to be as high skill-ceiling as possible. I do not think that many killer will ever be mechanically difficult to play but I think knight in particular can be medium-skill cieling character that is similar to spirit where his skill-cieling is about tracking survivors movement with orb to place guards that win chases for him. Survivor should be all about avoiding guard chases and mind-gaming his guard placements. The knight in particular is a complicated character to balance because its based off AI and 2vs1 gameplay. balancing 2vs1 gameplay and ensure the AI is not too effective but not too ineffective is challenging with such a killer design.
He is working how he was designed. If a killer is suppose to be low/mid tier then they shouldn't have a high skill ceiling. High skill ceiling killers should always be the top tier ones. If they made his snipes always give a hit then you would just get your injure and then snipe with guard since you can easily track a survivor that is injured. That change would then require a rework to his power since without it he would be an A tier killer that is easy and also having little to no counterplay. He would now be a spirit-like killer and not more of a commander where you order you guards to help assist you in downing survivors.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3337312#Comment_3337312
How does a survivor play better if I run Thrilling Tremors and hit them with a max range patrol? The counterplay there is to pre-leave gens when you hear the TR right?
Previous to 6.5.0, you could see green orb. the survivors counter-play toward guard chases is suppose to be running out of the detection circle and grabbing the banner. in that situation, by making orb invisible, the significance of that change that they did in 6.5.0 is that avoiding guard chases when your out of chase is harder. The knight could already land long distance guards chase prior to 6.5.0. The problem is that survivor have no reason to avoid said guard chases because hold-W counters the guard and the knight as whole.
On the survivor side this killer is already miserable to play against and making longer patrols result in hits with the Knight not having to be there feels like expose Nurse. You either play stealthy or you get punished.
I do not agree. I think knight is practical joke to escape against and there is no skill-ceiling to play him well nor is there skill-ceiling for knight play better. he gets auto-pilot losses vs gen efficient+shift-w teams and stomps weaker survivor plays that have weak routing in chase and poor gen efficiency. He could have more of skill-ceiling to play as him and playing vs him but the knight is currently is not there.
I do not agree. I think knight is practical joke to escape against
He is a high C low B tier killer. You can run full slowdown since chase perks do nothing for him. Honestly feels no different in power to Dredge and Doctor. I don't see any problem with a low skill-ceiling killer when they are already high C/ low B.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336902#Comment_3336902
you did not miss much. your method of cutting survivors off and corralling survivors in the corner of the map is same as before buff as after the buff. This is what I mean by nothing changed in his update. he plays the same and does same thing. sniping with guards would increase his versatility in using his power. He would still have 2vs1 stuff going on but he would also have that extra layer anti hold-w layer dimension to his skill-cap when using his power that stronger killers have access to. I think he was servicable in going for long range patrols before change but he gets no reward for those patrols. survivor do not need to play around it because it is counter-play kinda braindead easy? Its just shift-w and run forward away from the guards. He becomes time inefficient in chases and he has no real skill expression to shorten those chases from shift-w because its entirely based around how survivor plays and not how well he places/uses guards vs shift-w play. Those guards statistically cannot hit the survivor if the survivor plays it correctly. I think your point is that you believe that if he can counter shift-w(snipe with guards), he will be oppressive but I think it just means that survivor needs to play better against long range patrols that does not involve just tanking guards chases and doing easy shift-w play. In other words, I do not think he will be oppressive. I think survivor will need to play better to escape him.
How does he not get value for long range patrols if those snipes results in hits? Like if you are on one side of the map and I snipe you I can then use the guards' aura to see your pathing and use the guard to help corral you. The only thing here is that the time to down is bad. I don't find that to be an issue since there really isn't counterplay vs him.
How does a survivor play better if I run Thrilling Tremors and hit them with a max range patrol? The counterplay there is to pre-leave gens when you hear the TR right? I don't find that to be a healthy addition to his kit. On the survivor side this killer is already miserable to play against and making longer patrols result in hits with the Knight not having to be there feels like expose Nurse. You either play stealthy or you get punished.
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@Dreamnomad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336564#Comment_3336564
I disagree about Map of the Realm since I've played tons of games with Knight and never actually used that particular add on. I do however use Dried Horsemeat in virtually all my games. So I'm inclined to agree that the chase time should be extended and this add on be changed into something else. I use both BBQ and Nurse's Calling so I can usually drop the spawn point of knights right on survivors heads. That's why I suppose I've never felt the need to run Map of the Realm.
I've found without running Map the lower detection range guards are not consistent in finding the survivor. That might be because of my playstyle though. I tend to try to cut survivors paths off and then use the speed boost to corral them.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336856#Comment_3336856
sure but that is not efficient time to down. If a guard hits you, then you misplayed vs his ability and he deserved the hit.
I feel the area of denial and zoning is the skill that is for Knight.
this is certainly his skill-cap in how you use guard to get the m1 hit on the survivor, but I would say its currently too easy. I spotted this strength on day 2 in PTB when people thought he was bad. If I play my power perfectly with the guard, the survivor has no chance to avoid not getting hit. Because the time to down is so slow, you can get hit by the knight and feed many hooks to him but he has no chance to win multiple chases before all 5 gen pop because his power does not shorten chases. it confirms hits/downs in already favourable positions for the killer.
If I have a guard on you I'm just looking to zone you into a corner and get my hit.
That is what I do only with the knight. There is no reward in using his new buffs because his new buffs do nothing. Placebo low impact changes. You still only get rewarded as knight for zoning in survivors away from loops which is most effective when done in the corner of the map because the corner of the map does not allow survivors to detach to other loops. The power lacks versatility. the power is one dimensional. Knight power needs more versatility and less strength in the favourably killer positions.
I see Knight as just Doc v2. I see the low skill expression for the killer being fine since it is paired with low power. Like you said if the killer plays it correctly he will get the downs but it's not time efficient. They really can't change that unless they make him broken(uncounterable and quick) or do some kind of rework. Seems like the latter is something you wish they would do(snipe with guards that is rewarded in hits).
I personally didn't play him until the buff because pooping a guard at every loop is just Artist v2. I've found that he is serviceable with going for more long range snipes and then trying to cut the survivor off. The buff at least helps this playstyle be actually viable. At the end of the day the killer has low skill expression so I'm fine with him being on the lower end the the roster.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336825#Comment_3336825
you can cut people off with all 3 guards. there is no reason to run dried meat in fact because the survivor can purposely completely avoid the guard and choose to only get hit by the killer. the only add-on you need to cut people off.. well i shouldn't say need. I should say, improves your chance for guard chase to activate is map of the realm.
they will put themselves in a corner of the map or you shouldn't be using a guard there in the first place.
that is skill-cap for survivor. its avoiding corners of the map and wasting the knight's time. it is super easy to go on long chase with knight because you can avoid going in the corner of the map in many situations to prologue early chases and if the knight zones you to in the corner of the map. you can force knight to hit you and avoid the guard entirely. If you are injured and have dead hard equipped, you can do this total 2 times because you can let guard purposely hit you during Dead hard giving 3 health-states. that is why knight is weak. It is easy to extend chases and shift-w counters him. His chase time too long and he has no counters to shift-w. his chases are arbitrary too long. If his guard could hit survivors on their own, He would have counter to shift-w therefore be a stronger killer that can shorten chases with his ability if he uses ability correctly and survivor misplays vs the ability.
You can but the assassin can get a hit while helping you cut off. That can help cut down the time you take to down a survivor. If you don't need to even be there then all you need to to defend the banner and someone can be getting hit on the assassin. That's why I think it would be obnoxious if that was the case.
Knight is much like Doc where you are just going to be getting hit but the down times are why they are not A tier. I feel the area of denial and zoning is the skill that is for Knight. Letting the Knight hit you and not the guard is still value the guard gave. I find shift w to be something the Knight can help avoid being such a strong strat. If I have a guard on you I'm just looking to zone you into a corner and get my hit.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336734#Comment_3336734
Suppose I break a pallet as knight and my power is ready. The survivor will be travelling to next pallet/loop location. If I am using my power to draw long paths, then I am effectively trying to use my guard to punish hold-w. With how it currently works, the survivor has no reason to care for my guard chase because they can just keep holding forward and the guard will never hit them by running forward. I am losing distance because I am drawing a patrol path standing still and survivor is gaining distance on me because I am standing still.
The result is that I never zero incentive to use long patrol paths because my guards are terrible at countering hold-w and the survivor has no incentives to avoid guard chases. Just tank every single guard chase and hold-w. You won't get punished. I won't get rewarded for successfully activating my ability. The gameplay for these long drawing path patrols is suppose to play like spirit. Survivor is suppose to walk and mask their footsteps to make it difficult to track. Survivor do not bother because knight's successful or failure is irrelevant. they win guard chase by ignoring ability altogether. To answer your question regarding whether double assassin+map of the realm is obnoxious. I do not see as obnoxious. It is using optimal add-on to counter shift-w which is one of biggest problems for killer in my opinion. a leading reason to why most killer are weak including knight.
To side track a little bit, This is like same problem that pinhead with his ability. there is no incentive to dodge long range chains because you will still get to next loop and he has no incentive to hit his chains because even when he hits his chains, the chain break so quickly that almost no distance is lost. Same issue. The killer gameplay is insignificant toward outcome. Only survivor play matters. This is another example of another killer having a possible anti-shift w mechanic that is ineffective with current variables.
The reason to get a guard on them is so you can cut them off and get a free hit. If they can just run a straight line then they will put themselves in a corner of the map or you shouldn't be using a guard there in the first place. The assassin make this very deadly since you are there for a hit and the assassin can also hit them making the chase very short.
I can't see how the assassin getting a free hit if I do a long patrol wouldn't be obnoxious. They they changed it to reward you with only needing to zone the banner I see that as a miserable experience for survivor.
I don't feel like Knight has the same problem as pinhead. I would go back to being able to cut players off and how it is also easy to do since your guard is basically wall hacks since they follow the survivors path. Would be curious to hear your opinion on this though.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336564#Comment_3336564
I mean if a patrol line is drawn at max distance. the time it takes for guard to enter chase is 1.5 second when the 25% buff is applied. 1 meter = 4 meter of running distance, so 1.5 meters is 6 meters of distance. Assassin moves at 4.4, he gains 0.4 meters every second for 16 seconds. across his entire running distance, he would travel 6.5 meters. In short, assassin would just hit or just miss if your running forward. Without add-on, the assassin will travel 4.8 meter of distance.
I do not think the survivor should have counter-play toward guard if the guard successfully starts chase with survivor at max patrol distances. I think at max distances, the survivor should either a) look to avoid guard or b) utilize banner to disable guard chase. hold-w shouldn't work. the guard should hit survivor if the knight uses land his power perfectly on the survivor.
So I think with the brown add-on it makes hitting long patrols not that difficult. It's a 50% increase for the detection range for the Assassin/Carnifex(8m base). I would agree more if there wasn't that add-on since I've had it where I felt I landed a really good guard and it didn't go into chase when I wasn't running it.
To me the killer feels way different when running those add-ons vs not. I really don't have anything to complain about when I'm running those two and can't see how the devs could improve the killer without pushing him over the edge. Like if they made max patrol better for the guards then couldn't you do double assassin and the detection range? Seems like that would be the go-to and be super obnoxious.
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For me the issue with knight add-ons is that Dried Horsemeat and Map of the Realm feel mandatory for him. I don't think they can even change that since the reason it feels that way is because the assassin can get you hits with that combo.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336271#Comment_3336271
It's exactly the same boat as Demo, though. Wesker has a fast, high-speed lunge, old DH you'd have to get absolutely perfect timing to get it to go through you entirely and not make all that much ground if you did, get it wrong and you'd get tagged. New DH gives you the pretty generous window and the 'I got hit' speed boost.
And no, if you tag someone with endurance, they don't get grabbed. On the plus side, this automatically means that it takes the hit (doesn't need a handy wall). On the other, you don't get the post-grab extension or benefit of putting the Survivor out of position. The Survivor gets a speed boost that Wesker's M2 doesn't normally hand out.
Hm that's interesting. I know for players having bt it would work like that but I remember times where I would correctly use dh and it would go on cd but I get hit after the endurance ended. I wonder if that's just desync or maybe a bug. I know DH is real weird with Wesker power though. I don't know if you seen survivors DH his power and it makes them look like they're driving an invisible car. ######### is pretty hilarious.
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336249#Comment_3336249
Wesker too (though he came after, like Knight), same as Demo. He's another case of his power being shut down by DH despite already being highly telegraphed and easily dodged.
And Endurance effects not only tank the hit, it skips the yeeting.
Also, anyone else find it weird that there's two people who have all their posts in this one thread and backing each other up?
I thought it was only if you were behind a wall since the yeet would deal damage after the buff expired. If I'm correct then I feel the telegraph attack is worse off with old DH since you would be able to always dodge it compared to now where it doesn't work in more open spaces since you are throwing the survivor.