Trollinmon
Trollinmon
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Dh is literally bad game design full stop. The perk straight up can be totally dead vs some killers and a free 3rd health state for others. If you want to balance killers in this game you literally need to assume everyone has DH for some killers because of how common and strong the perk can be vs them.
Also, Dh wasn't nerfed across the board. Lets go over some killers where I feel the perk is roughly the same in power level or buffed
Billy
Nurse
Huntress
Cannibal
Pig
Spirit
Plague
Demo
Oni
Executioner
Blight
Twins?
Trickster
Nemesis
Artist
Wesker
Knight
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@BlueRose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334811#Comment_3334811
In Otz's defense, that Demo game was doing a challenge run he currently trying to do. The challenge is a winning streak to using the same build on every killer with same the same color combo of add-ons. So in that game, that was his first game of a new attempt for the streak with a whole new build he was testing out(with each attempt he changes up the perks). So if he won that match(a 3k) he would use that same build on another killer and the same color combo of add-ons(Green and purple) on the next killer. So yeah it may not be the best build for a demo but he currently not playing the game like most of us since he is doing a challenge.
That makes a whole lot more sense. Like the perks and add-ons are not terrible but just seemed really weird to use that kind of build where nothing really is complementing each other.
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When I watch that demo game I see exactly why tunneling is such a bad habit for killers to get into. At the end of the game he mentions that if you want to take anything from that game it is you need to tunnel people(14:50). But lets look at how to actually get wins without needing to tunnel.
First, his build makes no sense. You should never run CI and LP together on demo. If you want to run either it is fine but both perks are doing opposite things for early game. If you run LP then you are looking to drop portal on spawn and go straight into a chase while CI you are looking for a portal setup.
His add-ons continue this trend by not synergizing with his build. With those add-ons I would go with a kick build and put portals on top of the gens. If he wanted to go aggro then maybe the bbq and barbs add-on for quickly getting in chase and better pallet break. Barb's glasses is imo demo's best add-on and only is a yellow.
For that meg save I would go after her. It's a survivor induced tunnel in that scenario. They should maybe play better and not put themselves in that position in the first place. I wouldn't consider that tunneling just like if a survivor ran at me isn't me tunneling if I chase them.
You can keep track of hook states and not go for a 8 hook games before killing someone. You can simply ignore one survivor and focus on getting hook states with the other 3. You can literally have the first death with 1 gen remaining and you win because the other 2 survivors will have hooks on them. It sucks for the one guys but you are giving chase for the other 3. This makes the game now 9 hooks for a win and 7 hooks would be your max before a kill with the other 2 on death hook. Now this doesn't always work but it's a very good tactic to use in general.
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From my experience the thing keeping low tier m1 killers decent is Save the Best for Last. It really is amazing on low tier killers since it gives them the threat they so desperately need. My thought process is when you face a strong swf that will starve you from stacks then that game was actually over from character selection. All other games you can gain a good amount of stacks and it can help bridge the gap on the low tier killers chase compared to the mid-high ones.
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On nightlight.gg lithe is already used 50% more than sb currently. If they nuke DH then I see all those players gravitating towards lithe instead of SB. At the end of the day exhaustion perks are always going to be annoying for killer to some degree. Personally I want to see a new common exhaustion ran instead of it always being DH. We can even call it a meta shake up.
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I would say it just giving the survivors options to heal themselves would still keep it in the meta. The 50% bonus heal speeds for med-kits and healing others really feel like an added extra that isn't needed for the perk to stay strong.
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@AverageKateMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329002#Comment_3329002
A shake up for survivor exhaustion when killers get access to bloodlust even easier while having access to stbfl with 10 stacks technically. Killers have chase benefits and a lot of the strong killers are anti loop with these benefits. Lets leave exhaustion alone and get rid of DH. Tha should be fair
It's basically 9 stacks of save now since it's 40% of 2.7 vs 3.0. If I recall correctly it was .15 per stack and is now .135. New save I think was .18 faster compared to before which is slightly faster than 9 stacks.
I was taking about the meta shake up for exhaustion in terms of getting DH out of the meta. It's still the top dog for survivor exhaustion when there are other choices. The meta shake up was a failure in the regard since you still see DH the most used perk in the entire game. The sad thing is DH stays but healthy perks like DS and POP are nowhere to be seen.
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@TheSubstitute said:
Eruption has two major issues in my opinion:
(a) It removes a player's ability to play for a significant amount of time. That is not healthy game design
(b) It disproportionately affects one group more than the other (solos vs swf). That makes it frustrating for the group that's affected worse and makes it harder to determine if balancing is required.
Reworking it into a blocked gen effect instead of giving the incapacitated status would still leave the perk strong, not have players standing around for extended periods of time, and smooth out how it affects people allowing for better data. That sounds good to me.
In regards to the what about DH argument , well, first it is possible for there to be more than one unconnected issue in the game and, two, I don't think DH is broken. Honestly, I think it's okay albeit it can feel frustrating to face.
If a Killer approaches a survivor with SB, BL, and Lithe the extra distance can prevent a hit. That's less frustrating for the Killer because the Killer wasn't close and now has to spend extra time finding another survivor. The survivor with DH just switches when that happens to mid-chase. That feels more frustrating because the Killer feels like they won the chase and got robbed but they hadn't won the chase yet.
The real test as to whether or not DH is still out of balance is if DH users escape significantly more than SB users. They might, they might not, but right now the only people who know aren't telling.
The real difference between the two is that although we don't know if DH is that much better than it's closest equivalent, SB, it seems pretty apparent Eruption is much better against solos than swf and is much more effective than the other gen defense perks. That calls for a rework to make it healthier.
Do you think it is healthy to do a meta shake up and take the undisputed best perk in the game and buff it vs certain killers?
I would even go as far and say that current DH is objectively bad game design. If we take a bubba how do you play vs DH? Well if you m1 then you can't use your m2 since the survivor will DH it. Ok, but that's one character right? Well you have Billy that can hit his curve and that be completely removed by the e key. Demo is another killer that has always struggled vs DH and the effect of the perk is objectively better now. How about trickster where you now remove all knives if you hit the DH instead of just dodging 1 knife.
What about e for distance? Well they made it harder and buffed it. If you have the correct spacing then you can e under pallet and not only get what old DH was but you now get to save the pallet. How about pallet play? Well new DH is now better since you can leave the tile if you DH a lunge.
The perk doesn't just need a nerf but the concept of the perk needs to be removed from the game. If they don't do that then they need to take it out back like some of the killer perks. Lets actually see a meta shake up for survivor exhaustion.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328256#Comment_3328256
^_^
I'm hitting around 100k if I do my usual 'everyone gets a lot of BP' playstyle and the survivors don't just megasweat.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328252#Comment_3328252
Gen speeds feel just...so bizarre right now. I'll be running Plague, see a Discordance pop 2 seconds into the match and by the time I get there, not only has the gen popped but another one pops in the middle of the map where I was maybe 50 seconds ago.
Then I see quadruple Hyperfocus, a Fogwise, quadruple Stakeout, Deja Vu and your standard CoH/Ex perks in postgame and it's like - 'is this really fun for you?'.
Yea ppl be real sweaty in events. I played I think 8 games of killer since patch and I got a 4 stack of all strong players and builds and then a 3 stack with full meta and broken med-kits with the solo survivor being a legacy p3 nea. Like all events its some players being sweaty and then other players play sweaty because it isn't fun being sweat on and at the end of the event everyone playing like there is a $25 BestBuy gift card on the line.
Like my soloq games have survivors hitting gens and I don't know if that is because you can see what other players are doing so they don't want to dick around or if it's simply the event so players are all taking it more serious.
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I'm at 100% survivor right now but did notice it was perma killer for a bit. I don't think you can say what impact the icons will have for sure until next month. I've noticed survivors are doing gens more than before but that is typical for an event. Once the honeymoon period ends and the game goes back to normal we should see how the icons truly impact the game.
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The counter is OTR is not hope the survivors slam gens when they get off hook and tunnel them. If you get off hook and want to push gens instead of doing a reset then you are free game for the killer. You should expect the killer to chase you if they come back since you are injured and were doing a conspicuous action. The last part sounds like the killer putting a trap up and a survivor falling victim to it. I personally would call that getting outplayed.
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@KingFieldShipper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3327124#Comment_3327124
Using campbell's shouldn't shave off that much time but I haven't revisited to try it again. But keep in mind, I am actually agreeing with op that map control wasn't her strong suit and I agree with scott's video there as well, and have for a while before that video came out too. I think it's a psychological thing, because 110% just feels slow. Like, walking around with hag just feels slower than it actually is.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3327170#Comment_3327170
I never said it wasn't negligible. I am agreeing with you in general, this wasn't supposed to be a gotcha, but I do disagree she has no good addons anymore.
Like many others, other than old range, no one typically ever thought map control (and I don't really count salty end game chats because the sole purpose is to literally just tilt you - this is side agnostic btw), at least, on bigger maps was ever the issue... Which also, was the last half of my post, but also mentioning a more realistic scenario than going down a hallway with nurse in a straight path just using blinks. At least, I don't find myself ever doing that when I play nurse unless in a chase.
Ah, I read it as more the ability to go through walls and then you finding her going faster was disagreeing to a degree.
Yea I share the same thoughts about 110%. I've seen players think that way and thought it would be worth sharing for you or anyone else that might not be aware.
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@KingFieldShipper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3327124#Comment_3327124
Using campbell's shouldn't shave off that much time but I haven't revisited to try it again. But keep in mind, I am actually agreeing with op that map control wasn't her strong suit and I agree with scott's video there as well, and have for a while before that video came out too. I think it's a psychological thing, because 110% just feels slow. Like, walking around with hag just feels slower than it actually is.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3327170#Comment_3327170
I never said it wasn't negligible. I am agreeing with you in general, this wasn't supposed to be a gotcha, but I do disagree she has no good addons anymore.
Like many others, other than old range, no one typically ever thought map control (and I don't really count salty end game chats because the sole purpose is to literally just tilt you - this is side agnostic btw), at least, on bigger maps was ever the issue... Which also, was the last half of my post, but also mentioning a more realistic scenario than going down a hallway with nurse in a straight path just using blinks. At least, I don't find myself ever doing that when I play nurse unless in a chase.
Ah mb, and I agree.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3327268#Comment_3327268
On the mobile version you have two full charge blinks. On PC/console all chain blink windows are 1.5s long. A half second shorter than the initial charge.
If you're talking about the addon, that's when you full charge the 1st blink and instantly 2nd blink after. But these numbers are for basekit.
Ah I see. I was confused by 2 full blink as maybe a reference to the add-on.
Very interesting that using both blinks to cover the map is better than spamming one. Always thought without recharge it was worse.
Gives me some things to think about, thanks! <3
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@Mr_K said:
1 Full Blink
| Time | M/S | Distance Charge 2s 2.89 5.78m Blink 1.5s 13.333 20m Blink Window 1.5s 1.54 2.31m Fatigue 2s 0.96 1.92m Cool Down 1s 3.85 3.85m ----------------------------------------- Total 8s 4.2325 33.86m
- Blink Cool Down is 3s but starts at Fatigue, why I have 1s listed.
2 Full Blinks
| Time | M/S | Distance Charge 2s 2.89 5.78m Blink 1.5s 13.333 20m Chain Blink 1.5s 1.16 1.74m Blink 0.9s 13.333 12m Blink Window 1.5s 1.54 2.31m Fatigue 2.5s 0.96 2.4m Cool Down 3.5s 3.85 13.475m ---------------------------------------- Total 13.4s 4.30634 57.705m
Much love for the math and easy to read format.
Had a question about the 2 full blinks. Shouldn't she have no chain blink windows when you fully charge the first blink? and isn't the second blink 1.5 at 40m? I thought they changed the add-on from a half blink to full.
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@KingFieldShipper said:
Ok so I really do hate to bump this thread but I did this test myself out of sheer curiosity and.. it does not match op's findings
method:
Test #1 - Start in the same position (against the wall near the bathrooms) and timer starts when I start moving and timing ends immediately when reaching the locker
Test #2 - start on the same position (opposite side of the hall from the library) and timer starts when I start moving and timings ends when I reach the opposite from the hall
In test #1, I used campbells last breath. I think it would shave off maybe a second at most (I should have tried again comparing campell's vs no campells in both scenarios) and it ensured a full charge second blink. I forgot to equip it for the second test, but still.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzBz74BPL_M
Nurse saved about 2 seconds in both tests
So, I didn't find it to be the "same exact amount of time". But that's not really the strength of nurse's power anyways as others have said. Also, walking in a straight line like that is somewhat unrealistic for nurse, or at least it's unrealstic when I play her - I could have blinked upstairs or downstairs or in the courtyard and traverse the map more quickly than trapper to cut travel time short too. And say I'm in a classroom and I hear the gen above me I can get there miles quicker than trapper ever could...
The purple add-on lets you use the second blink for full range with zero charge. There is a difference in using the add-on vs not. You want to only use one blink to travel the map and should only be using 2 blinks when you want to get line of sight of the survivor(usually on indoor maps). The add-on lets you travel 40m in 5 seconds (2s charge 1.5s travel for each max blink). I've heard players did a bunch of math on it and came to the conclusion was that she was basically a 105% killer for map traversal.
A fun fact that players don't realize is that a 110 killer is basically the same as a 115 killer for map traversal. The reason players "feel" like the 110 killer is much slower is because the time it takes for the killers to close the gap on survivors. A 115 killer closes the gap 50% faster than a 110(.4m/s vs .6m/s). Scott did a video showcasing this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R0gTNDSI0s
The breakable wall example shows at least what OP was saying. IF the trapper didn't have to break the wall they are comparable.
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Why do survivors hate when killers camp and tunnel? They are just trying to do their objective of killing the survivors. The reason players complain about holding w is because it is requires low skill, is strong, and is boring. Kinda like the same thing when killers camp.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3325224#Comment_3325224
the only killers that can see the new dead hard as a potential nerf are only 3: legion (feral frenzy will apply deep wound, making DH essentially useless... aside that he's still a m1 killer easily loopable) pinhead (his chains can deny the use of DH despite being extremely fragile) and deathslinger (again deep wound from his m2 attack... will take ages to reload and shoot again, not to mention that maps full of objects are his bane), every other killer in the game will see dead hard actually BUFFED
New dh is nerfed vs doc and trapper. I would say it is a skill issue if new dh is not nerfed vs m1 killers. Before it was a mindless press e button and win. Anyone could be mind-gamed at a pallet and hit the e button to remove the killer's play. Now you really don't get that unfair experience for m1 unless the survivor is in the small window where you have to full lunge as killer to be able to get the hit. The effect of new dh is better but you can actually play around it and deny it, unlike before.
Then again if you are playing pallets then dh is better than before, so maybe it even depends on the playstyle. I would say that playing the pallet as a m1 killer would be buffed because its an addition hit that also removes BL vs before where you would buy some time. But I would say in general dh is nerfed vs m1 killers and there are just situation where it was buffed.
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Play how you would want the other side to play when you are in the other role. If I was playing survivor and the killer is chasing someone and they go down next to hook I would blame the survivor for not leading the killer away. I would expect the killer to camp because that survivor gave a real good reason for them to. I would take them not doing that as them playing very nice.
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Dh needs a complete rework from needing to time an ability. I don't know of any game where the devs have reaction skills in the game and don't sync the clients. When you play dbd there is always desync making a perk like dh not have any place in the game.
It is terrible game design to have a perk that removes a killers m2 or heavily restricts what a player can do. How do you play leatherface vs dh? If you injure the survivor you then can't use your m2 because they can just dh it. The best perk in the game was buffed vs certain killers.
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Nurse was basically a free win button that would have to spend a few hours to unlock. The add-ons removed a lot of her skill expression because things like double recharge would remove the punishment for when you were making mistakes. Good Nurses would also be that much stronger when using add-ons.
I'm guessing when they looked at the numbers it was something like new Nurse players lost every game and then the ones that stuck around would have some stay with base-kit and other use recharge/range. The ones that used the add-ons had a way higher kill rate than the ones using base-kit. I would assume they can filter things like win rates with add-on and certain perks at different mmr brackets. So the general kill rate for her isn't an issue but when you look closer there is a problem. Just like how they said old Object was fine because players using the perk would only survive 40% of the time but they didn't look at how that perk change the escape rate for their team.
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bamboozle, enduring, spirit fury, dead lock.
Strong chase for a m1 killer and deadlock for some passive slowdown.
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@StarLost said:
The scenario you are saying isn't something that ever happens. Players are hitting gens and they don't get hit by pr and run to a corner or find another gen.
Uh, yeah it is. Because that's how I handle this combination, after seeing...it was either Ayrun or Spooky a bit back talking about it.
If you get hit by pr across the map and waste time hiding that is even more value from pr. That is because not only are you wasting time sitting on your hands but you are letting a gen regress at the same time.
Read what I wrote again.
Like it's an alternative but ci is straight up better.
I disagree. This is another situation where a lot of survivors won't handle it correctly, but the groups that do...well, there's a reason this is generally not permitted in comp.
Basically, you just hide in a random locker or out of the way spot, and use the 'gains' exploit to not get AFK crows. Then go back to the game as normal.
All CI is doing is making the match take 2 minutes longer. I had maybe 5 SWFs do this against me on Myers a month or so ago, which is why I don't use CI anymore on any killer that isn't a setup killer.
I mention killer perks because we are talking about killer perks?
Do you think it's fair to talk about killer perks in a vacuum, when discussing balance?
Or do we need to look at things a bit more holistically and say - what would, taking into account the past 6 years of the game and the current meta, be fairest?
Eruption is so busted that it would still be in a top build with a 33% nerf.
This is factually wrong.
This would make Eruption about as good as it was before the buff...you know, when nobody used it?
There is no high mmr in this game.
This is factually wrong.
BHVR have confirmed that there is absolutely an mmr range between x and y, with y being some point beyond the soft cap.
You can play
chillnormally but it looks chill because you've got 12,000 hours in this game, and win an insane% of your games, and if you disagree you can watch all the streamer that do iSigh. I got this far and nope, I'm done.
if you disagree you can watch all the streamer that do it. Momo (blight player) is going for 1000 wins in a row without losing
Yeah okay, no. You're just being contrarian now. Feel free to be a jerk about it as per last time (I do tend to get suckered in by this sort of cheap trick, but it really is just being a low human to insult people who don't want to spend hours pointlessly bickering), but the hypocrisy here is absolutely staggering.
You climbed down my throat when I used Ayrun as an example of someone who can excel in solo queue.
You are arguing the *exact same thing*, but now with an even more outside advantage of Blight.
This game is not Dead by Dayblight. If a killer is OP, then that killer should be balanced around the game. Not vice versa.
Yeah, cheers. I really, really cannot believe that I wasted so much time on that. Well done, I guess - because you had me going.
I've seen maybe 2 groups every try to hide out corrupt in my entire play of dbd. One of those were actually just really scared. I run corrupt and i never see players do this. While players can, it is like locker save abusers where it basically never happened. Maybe I'm not playing in all those comp games like you are.
Isn't it a whataboutism? Oh eruption is op but what about survivor perks. Like the entire balance talk is in regard to killer and how killer perks are stacking up to each other. How are survivor perks relevant to that? What does release coh have to do with me comparing eruption to undying?
Eruption wasn't used before because it was ci, pop, pain res on every killer every game. It would still be a top perk in a top build, and I don't see how you can debate that. You can't push back on the perk not staying in the spot since what perk gives more value and a brine build is and will stay a top build for killer.
When you queue up the games caps your matchmaking mmr to 1600. You can gain more mmr but it is irrelevant because when you hit the ready button it's capping that to 1600. A 2800 player is matchmaking with players at the 1600. Like I don't know if you have play competitive games seriously before, but in those games you are at 50% w/r or going higher in mmr until that happens. There is not a single game I have ever seen where players are winning hundreds of games in a row and there was matchmaking for them. The entire reason player can even do this is because they are smurfing. However, in other games if you smurf would will gain enough mmr to then be placed vs other skilled players to then start losing games more and more often.
I'm using momo as a statement there can't be high mmr. He is my proof. Let momo guide you to reality that there is no such thing as high mmr in dbd. Prayge
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@StarLost said:
If you pre-leave I kick gen, or don't and I hit you and then kick gen.
How?
Those gens are now regressing. You cannot apply Eruption to a regressing gen. A fairly smart play with PR is, if you can dodge it, to hide. It'll regress, killer comes to check, leaves, you jump back on it. This is also a good way, in solo, of trying to get your teammates not to 3gen you.
You should always be looking to split gens vs any build.
Eh...sorta.
Generally you start by splitting up, meaning that you should be at 2-3 gens as soon as possible. Then you'll probably need to collapse and burn your toolboxes, stakeout stacks etc. to finish the last two gens ASAP, generally with one person leading the killer off and the other three destroying one with PTS or what have you.
I don't see how noting which gens have eruption on matters. Are you just going to let those freely regress with brine and waste time going over to tap and find other gens? But there also isn't even a point to tap the gen because eruption will make it start regressing again.
There's no point in doing dishes - they're just going to get dirty again.
Unless they have NTH, which makes things a little more complicated, you want to tap the COB/Erupted gen and then watch your allies to see when you need to let go. Then...you tap and continue without any worries, or maybe you eat the eruption if you poop the sheets.
Again - people love to pretend that eruption is hitting the entire team whenever someone goes down - but with a bit of foresight and a smart build, you can avoid it fairly reliably.
If you leave a gen that gets hit by pr, you made pr do 40% of a gen, and now you are wasting time finding a new gen. Like how is letting a gen full reset bad for the killer? You just don't do a gen that has low progress if the killer comes to kick it and then leaves(its eruption). That has no relation to pr though. I don't see how there is any anti-synergy in that build.
Wild exaggeration for effect. Moving on.
Survivors have set spawns. LP isn't that crazy of a perk unless you are Nurse
LP is incredible for a lot of killers. Artist. Ghostface. Myers. Nurse. Blight - basically any killer that can rapidly escalate pressure off a good chase. It's not so much about knowing where they are, as it is knowing who's heading into a weaker area of the map. And the bonus aura time is just gravy.
The meta before was 4 slowdown.
It absolutely was not.
Yes the most broken killer perk in the games is going to fix itself out...
It's usage rates look like they peaked and are now falling off. This probably means that survivors are starting to adapt to it.
The only killer perk that has been this bad was undying in recent memory.
It's...interesting that you say 'killer perk' and not just 'perk'.
Why is that?
That's how you play that build in general. The scenario you are saying isn't something that ever happens. Players are hitting gens and they don't get hit by pr and run to a corner or find another gen. If you get hit by pr across the map and waste time hiding that is even more value from pr. That is because not only are you wasting time sitting on your hands but you are letting a gen regress at the same time. So instead of pr being 15% it is now 15% and 1.25c/s of regression while brine is only 0.5c/s.
You run ci on Myers because of his weak start. Like it's an alternative but ci is straight up better. Blight doesn't care about LP because of his mobility. If you already know survivor spawns then the perk gives poor value for the slot. Ghostface I would assume is the same as Myers, but maybe not. Don't play him or artist so can't comment.
I mention killer perks because we are talking about killer perks?
Also, Eruption is so busted that it would still be in a top build with a 33% nerf. Only players I could see defending this are players benefiting from Eruption being broken. There is no high mmr in this game. You can play chill and win an insane% of your games, and if you disagree you can watch all the streamer that do it. Momo (blight player) is going for 1000 wins in a row without losing. I saw on his stream yesterday that he is sick of dropping the streak(noob can only get a 99.5% w/r) so he is actually going to try now and do things like camping and tunneling.
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@StarLost said:
What good teams are so poor on gen eff that when you hook a survivor their top gen doesn't have a lot of progress? Like am I misunderstand you? You're saying the counter to that build is leaving when you get hit by pain res if the gen isn't nearly finish. As in you are on a gen with 40% prog and you get hit down to 25% you then go find another gen while your gen full reset because that will counter gen kicking?
It's not quite that binary. Here's how I see folks trying to deal with it.
- Split up on gens.
- Note which gens are Erupted.
- PR comes in - if another gen has just popped, leave it.
- If another gen hasn't just popped and yours is viable, release for PR then slam it.
- If it's like 40%? Judgement call I guess, based on what other survivors are doing.
The first prize, natch, is to dodge the Eruption. If you want, I think...Ayrun did a recent 'speedrunning DbD' stream with some mates - note how they handle Eruption and rotate. Of course you won't be able to coordinate quite as well in solo as they did, but the same principle applies.
No top build is running double info.
Uhhh...yeah they absolutely are. Depending on the killer, LP+BBQ or LP+NTH are absolutely used.
The meta before was 4 slowdown
No, it absolutely wasn't.
now it's more 3 and a flex spot.
That's not what I'm seeing at all. It can be, sure, but looking at the top 10 most common builds on NL right now, excluding meme builds and adepts, there's 3 regressions, 4 regressions, 2 regressions and even two separate 'all info' builds.
Most commonly though, it's Erupt+CoB+x+y.
What's also interesting is that Eruption is declining in usage slightly, probably because more folks are learning to play around it.
It wouldn't surprise me if this is an issue that fixes itself.
If you pre-leave I kick gen, or don't and I hit you and then kick gen. You should always be looking to split gens vs any build.
I don't see how noting which gens have eruption on matters. Are you just going to let those freely regress with brine and waste time going over to tap and find other gens? But there also isn't even a point to tap the gen because eruption will make it start regressing again.
If you leave a gen that gets hit by pr, you made pr do 40% of a gen, and now you are wasting time finding a new gen. Like how is letting a gen full reset bad for the killer? You just don't do a gen that has low progress if the killer comes to kick it and then leaves(its eruption). That has no relation to pr though. I don't see how there is any anti-synergy in that build.
Survivors have set spawns. LP isn't that crazy of a perk unless you are Nurse.
The meta before was 4 slowdown.
You don't need to run meta to win games right now. I'm winning almost all of my games with base-kit Nurse playing the entire map with 1 slowdown. If I was going against equally skilled opponents I lose 10/10 games with that playstyle and build. NL shows what good perks are. If you look at the perks being used none of those perks are bad. There is a difference between top builds and good builds. The top build on demo is 3 slowdown and bamboozle vs good players and save vs bad. If you don't want to run bam then it's 4 slowdown perks.
I've completely dropped eruption because it made games at soft cap way too easy. Even for my demo I have been trying out agi, gop, pr, dl. Another build I've been trying is enfury, ci, pr.
Yes the most broken killer perk in the games is going to fix itself out... The only killer perk that has been this bad was undying in recent memory. It's 40 seconds if a survivor gets hit ands you can apply it to multiple gens. If 3 survivors get hit it's literally more than an entire gens worth of progress lost. That's off a single down. Again the perk being nerfed by 33% would still make it the best perk in a brine build and brine builds are a top build in the game.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3324039#Comment_3324039
SWFs and the better solos I face.
It's a build that has a lot of holes. No lethality or real info outside of NTH, which...is a good perk, but it doesn't help you in chase.
I'd much rather replace PR here with Lethal.
What good teams are so poor on gen eff that when you hook a survivor their top gen doesn't have a lot of progress? Like am I misunderstand you? You're saying the counter to that build is leaving when you get hit by pain res if the gen isn't nearly finish. As in you are on a gen with 40% prog and you get hit down to 25% you then go find another gen while your gen full reset because that will counter gen kicking?
No top build is running double info. The meta before was 4 slowdown and now it's more 3 and a flex spot.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3324033#Comment_3324033
The issue with that build is that often, once people know what you're doing, they'll let that gen regress unless it's almost done and just rotate. It makes it very hard to apply Eruption.
Now, if you wanted - say - to make PR erase Eruption from that gen? That's a sensible change.
What... Who are you playing that does that.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3324022#Comment_3324022
Depends on the map and survivors. If you run that build into a bad map/good team/good SWF, you're going to get pantsed. Too many eggs, too small a basket.
PR has a pretty big anti-synergy with it, actually. People are doing that one because they're silly and took ALL the T1 perks from Otz's video then bashed them together, or something.
If I was going to build around CoB+Eruption, it would be CoB+Eruption+LP+NTH, or PR+DMS+FOR+Discordance (my go to build). Probably more something like PR+DMS+DH+Undying on Hag and Trapper, although I might just go Surge+CI on those instead of PR.
But other killers...I go deeper on info.
There isn't any anti-synergy with pain res. You kick gens and apply brine+eruption and see if survivors are nearby. You down to get eruption and then pain res for more slowdown.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3324007#Comment_3324007
Brine would be doing almost all of the heavy lifting. You'd be better of just slotting NTH...or, more likely, going PR+DMS with everyone else.
Is there a build in the game better than brine, nowhere, erupt, pain res? I don't see an eruption nerf changing that build. It simply has great synergy with brine and would maintain its spot.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323969#Comment_3323969
You're either angling for a single kill or you're trying to get people off gens and milling around the hook. Again, camping is generally a pretty high risk/high reward play unless you're just aiming for 1 kill, or being a bastard to a final pair.
Eh...I'm not sure what this would really accomplished.
Eruption would basically be a bad perk at that point. It's another high risk/high reward perk, as it has multiple conditions to do anything. It's extremely volatile, much like old Ruin used to be - because either it does nothing or it crushes face.
But again - BHVR don't generally rework regression perks. They just nerf them into uselessness.
See: Ruin, Thana.
If you are using call of brine what other perks would you use instead of eruption if it was 15%10s? Pain res is a fairly strong perk and I don't see why you would want that over eruption if you are already using brine. I can't see how the perk isn't still very strong when paired with brine.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323919#Comment_3323919
That rule was changed because killers were literally struggling to get a kill in some games.
Huh?
Oh I see what you mean. I thought you meant complete invulnerability. Eh...I don't see what that would really do.
You can, but it's more of a means to an end.
Eruption would only go to 25 assuming every single one hits, and that's not at all my experience.
Makes sense
Camping and tunneling vs swf. How do you camp a player that can be on the hook for 3 minutes with reassurance? Are you talking about comp and such where they don't allow full builds on survivor and they camp and tunnel?
Because if you make otr only take one hit but work with endurance players can use base bt to body block and then still have otr if you tunnel them. A problem old bt and ds had.
And if you don't see eruption getting its secondary effect it would be a buff. It's 10% of a gen now and I was saying it should go to 15%. It would be a 15 second nerf vs soloq and a 4.5 sec buff for players that can avoid it. Seems like a very logical change.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323873#Comment_3323873
Every killer camps and tunnels sometimes - because, at the highest levels of play, that's how you have to play. Did you watch the CC?
As to your suggestions:
- Sure...but that would do less than the status icons.
- They have an icon for camp, but the commonly accepted 'wave your arms up and down' still works.
- That would be basically free unhooks. That would be a massive buff to SWF.
- So...almost as bad as pre-rework Eruption. Gotcha. So...just PR+DMS every match then? Okay. You'd have to buff the numbers substantially. And that's never, ever, ever going to happen.
- How in the blithering hell would that be a nerf to SWF?
Yes. 'I've played since day 1'. Gotcha.
Again, that is not an argument. That is you trying to substitute arbitrary numbers in place of an argument. You may have played this game for a long time, but I've lived for a long time, and in my experience...well, experience often just means you've been wrong for longer.
AFAIK, there is an icon for camping. And no, 1 would be a big meh, one is already in there, one would be silly, one would just be gutting a perk.
I don't watch the cc, but I did hear they changed the rules to make the win condition off hooks and not kills.
Can you go over how camping works when survivors can stay on hook for nearly 3 minutes per stage and then have another player trade out?
How is a player with bt not able to body block and then having otr actually do what it is intended to do a buff for swf? They can keep the survivor on hook with reassurance if you proxy camp and if you leave and come back they can use "for the people". I don't see how you can legit tunnel and camp a swf that are bringing an actual build. Maybe I'm missing something here.
Eruption would go from 40 seconds vs soloq to 25. Old pop was 20 seconds. A good swf is 9 seconds now vs 13.5 with the "nerf". Also, how is this perk not always used with brine? You are already kicking gens and just get to freely apply eruption. I don't see this being an issue unless you are just looking to use eruption as your sole kick perk. Then again it is a buff vs swf that are able to get off the gens at the correct time. Could also remove the laughable 30 second cd.
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@StarLost said:
I personally don't see players dc or going next right away
Then you're either being disingenuous, or should start playing the lottery TODAY.
soloq changes do nothing for me. All I see it doing is helping players with bad game sense and a qol buff in general. Without a doubt a buff, but knowing that players are being worthless in game doesn't magically change the outcome. If I were really far away from the hooked guy, then I'm sitting on my gen. This buff helps when there is another survivor really far away thinking the same thing. I rarely find myself in this scenario though. Maybe the chase thing is big, but I really don't expect the bar to move at all with the change. It was a bigger problem an entire year ago, but soloq is in a much worse spot now compared to then.
So...what's your solution? BHVR have said emphatically that they'll never balance solo and SWF differently. You can't buff solos in a way that won't buff SWF.
Solo queue is about in the same spot, from what I've been seeing. Baseline BT was a massive solo buff.
There is no form post with players exchanging rules lol. It was basically what players knew was unfun and would punish players that would abuse unfun things. The player base was smaller back then so if you got a rep for being a little ######### head then you were going to have a bad time. Ohtofu has talked about the good ol days of dbd. Even back then I think Zubatlel went on the Africa server because they dead and made farming parties for legacy. The rule book was basically you don't do unfun things and neither will I.
So what exactly was the rulebook you've been on about?
Yes, smaller communities have a different vibe. But had this community stayed small, the game would have died.
'Unfun' is subjective. Some folks hate playing against Hag. Find someone who doesn't dislike something. Because what people don't like, at the end of the day, is losing.
Does reassurance show on the icon in the new update? Is there an icon when a killer is camping hook? Me seeing players not doing gens doesn't magically make me win more games. Hell, sometimes I don't use bond or kindred for the sake of my mental health. Can't wait to be running the killer and 2 players are doing totems!!!
Then...why not find an SWF?
Reass - no idea. Yes for camping.
I have a feeling that you're not going to be satisfied with any attempts to help solo queue that BHVR is willing to try, so I guess you have two options at this point.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323802#Comment_3323802
I'll @ whoever I like.
No, I admit that I'm not very good at survivor. I'm decent on killer, but you know - always something new to learn.
Also...you know, if you're going to flame and make a fool of yourself, the least you could do was be coherent about it.
I watch umbra, ohtofu, bronx, and hexy and only really notice problems in hexy's games. Hexy is also the only one that camps and tunnels. The dude even has the fishing soundtrack from OoT for when he camps with wraith. I'm guessing I don't really see it since players doing this wouldn't stay at the soft cap.
You could have reassurance show white for the survivors hook progress to show everyone that they don't have to save. You can do a system where survivors can callout if they are being camped. You can make survivors not have collision coming off hook and then make otr work for one hook state (like ds) while working with endurance. Can change eruption to 15% and 10 sec incap. Are any of those things buffs to swf? I would argue that it would be nerfing swf while giving large buffs to soloq.
Camping isn't fun. I've played since day one and so I'm from era of the game where players cared about other fun to a extent. Think that is why I mentioned it since you were asking about camping.
If they show camping then it will help with gen efficiency. Players will no longer waste time getting off gens just to find the player is being camped. I would then say doing things like I mentioned up top to further bridge the gap.
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@StarLost said:
Doesn't quitters show there is maybe an issue going on?
Yes. It shows that the penalties aren't strong enough.
Every team MP game I can think of that didn't have strong penalties for quitting was ruined by it.
I also don't see how that how that would have an effect on kill rates.
A single suicide generally means a 4k.
Are you getting games where survivors just straight up give up at the start of the game?
Frequently on the first down/hook, but sometimes later.
Are you running certain build/playstyles that would cause them to do this?
Nope. And you'll see when I do my dataset thing. There was a tiny difference in quitting rate (like...2%) between games where I camped and games where I 2 hooked everyone. Flans or streamers made 0 difference. Which killer or perks I picked made 0 difference.
The only thing that decreased quitting was basically just letting them win.
The entire problem right now is soloq is basically nerfed while swf stays the same.
Uh...what?
Solo is about to get a massive help with the new status icons.
Not going to bother with the build stuff, as that's a totally different topic.
Yea I'm not seeing the reduction on those playstyles.
Again, you'll see in my dataset. But you can also compare the kill rates before and after 6.1.0 on 'camper' killers.
If a killer is losing it's an expected thing now.
Yes, because it's a roll of the dice and maybe snags them a kill. Do you...just expect killers to stand and face a wall or something?
Seriously, if you're going to begrudge a killer that 1k and maybe a comeback when they've got 2 hooks and the final gen is about to pop...that's really, really petty and rather meanspirited.
No, there was like actual rules the player base made so everyone could have fun.
I spent a good hour this morning looking for anything that predates the parody, and nope - nothing. Unless you've got an actual link, I'm pressing doubt.
They could make reassurance make the person hook bar turn white to show the other soloq survivors that they can sit on gens. There is already a perk that deals with camping and for some reason it's much better for swf than soloq. Simple info like that can go a long way.
You mean like...maybe some sort of custom status icons to let other solo players know what you're doing at any point in time?
I personally don't see players dc or going next right away. The only time I had serious issues with that is when I was playing Nurse when everyone was abusing omega blink.
soloq changes do nothing for me. All I see it doing is helping players with bad game sense and a qol buff in general. Without a doubt a buff, but knowing that players are being worthless in game doesn't magically change the outcome. If I were really far away from the hooked guy, then I'm sitting on my gen. This buff helps when there is another survivor really far away thinking the same thing. I rarely find myself in this scenario though. Maybe the chase thing is big, but I really don't expect the bar to move at all with the change. It was a bigger problem an entire year ago, but soloq is in a much worse spot now compared to then.
There is no form post with players exchanging rules lol. It was basically what players knew was unfun and would punish players that would abuse unfun things. The player base was smaller back then so if you got a rep for being a little ######### head then you were going to have a bad time. Ohtofu has talked about the good ol days of dbd. Even back then I think Zubatlel went on the Africa server because they dead and made farming parties for legacy. The rule book was basically you don't do unfun things and neither will I.
Does reassurance show on the icon in the new update? Is there an icon when a killer is camping hook? Me seeing players not doing gens doesn't magically make me win more games. Hell, sometimes I don't use bond or kindred for the sake of my mental health. Can't wait to be running the killer and 2 players are doing totems!!!
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323381#Comment_3323381
Hi OP.
I couldn't really say on how much I see dc's.
The data excludes DCs. I'm saying that suiciding (and to a lesser extent AFKing) is ridiculously common for survivors, but killers can't 'suicide', they can only DC. Those kill rates would look very different if you took quitters out.
I can walk you through the napkin math here if you'd like. That 60% is very misleading.
I would then counter that soloq has to run a perk slot for what swf gets for free
Info perks are so valuable for soloq but you can just hope on a call with friends and get that for free.
Yes. These are true statements.
And?
Unless BHVR do a complete mea culpa on their statements regarding design philosophy, they aren't going to balance SWF and solo differently, and the game has to be balanced around SWF.
No way out with noed is a very strong end game power spike.
Not regression or really slowdown, as NWO is barely going to help you in games where you're losing. I like it as a perk, but it more often works as a tool to secure an extra kill or two at endgame. NOED is a horrible crutch of a perk that I never run.
Corrupt is still fairly solid if you are going against strong teams.
CI is the one I forgot. It's...good-ish, but the only killers I'd really use it on are Hag and Trapper.
Regardless, my point is that 6.1.0 was designed to open up the meta slightly.
Then Overcharge got gutted on the PTB and Thana was nerfed to *worse than it was originally*.
So once Eruption is nerfed, we're going to have less variety in the regression meta than we had before.
And the most sleeper perk is Gift of pain
GoP is an awful perk. Just...awful. It can work on instadown killers, but you're generally better off with Surge.
16% would be a bit meh on it's own, but add in SH reliance and it falling off if you get injured, and it's just crap. GoP is basically code for 'let me get a quick bodyblock in then go heal in a boon'.
If a killer has good down pressure (Nurse, spirit, blight) you can get amazing value from this perk.
These are the exact killers that wouldn't want GoP, because they frequently injure multiple people. GoP could be slightly useful on instadowners.
I was running gift of pain, agi, pain res on trapper and had some great games with it.
GoP was barely doing anything. You were getting your value from Agi and PR, which is a solid combo, but you're putting all your eggs into the SH basket and some maps will just RNG your entire build. I've had Midwich, RPD, Eyrie and MD games where all 4 SH perks were together, in a part of the map you'd never go to.
It feels really bad because it's one thing or another. It might not be camping all the time but then it might be tunneling. Personally I feel like a see camping more than 1/20 games. Then again it might just be that the negative experiences stick
Trust me, it's the latter. I don't have any stats from before 6.1.0, but it's substantially rarer now and a lot of different folks have remarked on this. It still happens, sure, but it has never been less powerful than it is now, at least in recent memory.
Unless you're on a chainsaw or maybe an IT3 Myers, it's a huge gamble.
There were rulebooks for both sides on release.
You're...still talking about the one by Samination, right? Or the one by Jaimie?
Both of these are parody.
Why are you taking parody seriously?
Ayrun is a .01% player. There is a massive difference even going down to top 1%.
And?
There's a massive difference going down to the top 1% of killers too.
I find camping to be a cheap and a extremely boring tactic for both sides. I'd much rather play a full meta loadout and go for hooks than be perkless but having to camp/tunnel.
Sure. Camping sucks. Aside from fixing a couple of exploity tricks to bypass BT, there's not much more that can be done aside from removing hook grabs (something I've suggested in multiple threads).
But, yet again, this is another topic.
Doesn't quitters show there is maybe an issue going on? I also don't see how that how that would have an effect on kill rates. Are you getting games where survivors just straight up give up at the start of the game? Are you running certain build/playstyles that would cause them to do this? I personally rarely see players give up at the very start on killer. Most of the time players going next is in a game I'm in full control over. Them going next has no impact on the results of the game. My recent killers have been pinhead, nurse, and trapper. I would say 2 of the killers survivors typically hate facing.
You don't need to balance swf and soloq differently though. The entire problem right now is soloq is basically nerfed while swf stays the same. If there is a gap between soloq and swf, why would you nerf the weaker one and keep the stronger the same? If reassurance made the UI bar turn white would that change anything for swf? I would love to see that for soloq as it would make the value of the perk closer to what swf gets from it. It's simple things that doesn't affect on swf but can help bridge the gap.
Game delay is game delay. NWO is a phenomenal game delay perk. Something like CI, DL,NWO, Noed is a great all round build. It's also really good if you do slow, slow, NWO, flex. As long as it isn't your only slowdown I think it is really solid(to not struggle with getting max stack and having the tempo into endgame).
Myers, Freddy, and Demo are all killer that love CI.
My meta build in 6.0 was CI, pain res, pop on every killer. This patch I don't think I have a single duplicate build. CI, sloppy, jolt, enfury, save, brutal, agi, pain res, DL, NWO, BBQ, Lethal, Floods, Brine, Eruption, Gift of pain, noed, and bamboozle.
90/84=107 and sloppy makes heals take 20 seconds. So if you heal it takes 8 seconds longer since it is 2 players taking 4 seconds to heal and when that survivor does a gen it now takes 17 seconds longer from start to finish. The counterplay to this perk is not healing. Lets look at the math for your counterplay. It takes 40 seconds of efficiency to heal with a player with sloppy (20 seconds with 2 players). You then you are maybe spending 10 seconds to find the killer and another 10 to get into the boon. I think boon takes 24 seconds to heal in which is a total of 84 seconds of efficiency. You would be healing regardless so you take the 40 seconds away and are left with 44 seconds of wasted gen time to remove the perk.
Nope players in my trapper games were healing off hook. I gained insane value from the perk because they didn't want to stay injured. Now for trapper it isn't that crazy because you just stay injured and spread out, but I would say it is still an underrated perk.
Yea I'm not seeing the reduction on those playstyles. If a killer is losing it's an expected thing now.
No, there was like actual rules the player base made so everyone could have fun. Keep in mind I could go into a game and if were not a trapper I could just stay at an actual infinite and you couldn't do anything about it. I even remember the devs saying you just need to mind game them XD. I think even Ayrun has talked about missing old dbd because the player base was smaller and players would care about the other sides enjoyment. I remember seeing it in a video where there was drama about a bubba camping or something. Some streamer vs streamer bs where he was talking about how much better old dbd while the guy was camping. Couldn't find the exact video but someone made a video on the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBv9tXOir4M
They could make reassurance make the person hook bar turn white to show the other soloq survivors that they can sit on gens. There is already a perk that deals with camping and for some reason it's much better for swf than soloq. Simple info like that can go a long way.
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@StarLost said:
50% would be smurfing? the top 5% of killers are around 61% on average. I would say it is safe to say they are at the soft cap and that is also taking into account swf. Is it really unrealistic to assume that soloq is down to 35% while swf is around 45% on average?
Okay, here's the thing.
Again, going off my data I see a quitter in around 25-30% of games. Those stats excluded DCs, so let's be conservative and say 15-20%.
Now, SWFs escape 10-15% more than average, and have very few quitters. But that's a 3 or a 4 stack. So...let's say those are rare enough to be ignored.
That's why those 60% kill rates are probably fine by the devs. Because once you extract quitters and AFKers, it probably looks a lot closer to 50-55%.
If you are trying to read a survivor going down at a pallet that won't really work since everyone and their mother runs dh and that counters playing dropped pallets with dh up. Just like there are issues with soloq there are problems with what survivors have. The only way I see you countering it is when you see a survivor looping and then drop working on the gen. Like its really not worth spending a perk slot and then on top of that having to take time off gens to avoid the perk. I would also say that it's unhealthy to have solo survivors to jump through hoops to avoid the 40 seconds regression.
I mostly read them by how they're moving. I would say that, before a survivor goes down, almost all of them move a certain way as an attempt to juke. The second I see that, I release. If they keep running in a straight line, I stay on.
I would also say that aura reading is essential in solo. It's hardly a wasted slot.
Running the killer for a period of time is a lot to ask when there is bad MM. That's another problem with soloq imo. Like, yes you are not wrong in saying players should be able to hold their own but it just doesn't happened like that. The other players get punished for the game not making an equal squad.
MMR could be tightened up a bit, sure. But again, that's not this thread. And it also cuts both ways - sometimes you'll get a weak killer and decent teammates.
Would say killers still have a large amount of slowdown perk even without eruption
Do they? Everyone and their mum knows how to play around Penti+Plaything. Deadlock is...fine, but can actually work against you. Surge is niche. Overcharge is a terrible perk that gets brought a lot for some reason, much like Thana. Ruin is hot garbage, as is Oppression. Pop is extremely mediocre.
Unless I'm forgetting one, that leaves PR+DMS and CoB. So now we're back to a perfectly static regression meta.
reassurance counters the counter to otr. If you want to counter otr you can proxy camp and hit the survivor that got off hook right away. They need to make it so you get 1 save but it works with endurance. That would make it like ds because right now the perk straight up doesn't work when you are getting camping and tunneled.
Proxy camping is entirely fine, and is mostly a nothing term. It describes everything from trapping a hook to simply defending it.
I would call a camper a person that guards the hooked player when no survivor is around.
Shrug. Then yeah, maybe 4%. That's hardly anything to get your underpants in an uproar over. The only time it's a real issue is when it's a killer that can bypass End (as I said before, these need to be fixed) and maybe a Billy or a Bubba.
If the killers need to camp hooks vs soloq rn then that tells me they're bad. Remember I'm a day one player. I was there when the rulebook was made.
The survivor rulebook is a troll post that basically boils down to 'just let me win'. Nobody takes it seriously. Well...I hope they don't.
Again, referring to when you started almost cuts against you here, because it either means you haven't played that much over the years (or you'd be Ayrun level) or...yeah, actually what I just said.
'Bad' is subjective in a game with MMR. But again, let's say that MMR doesn't work right and that killer is just completely outclassed. I definitely don't think 'bad' here works.
Here's how camping operates on the ground, generally.
- Someone wants to facecamp at first down. That's obnoxious as it's usually a chainsaw. That, again, should be tweaked, but it's a different dicussion.
- A killer knows that the current team they are facing is going to be impossible to beat playing standard. So they decide to camp, in the hopes that this pulls everyone to the hook and they can try to get back in the game. To me, that seems perfectly valid.
I couldn't really say on how much I see dc's. I know it's very rare for me to see one early on but I do giggle when a survivors dc on death hook. Even though I play Nurse I don't see them unless I vs players that have no idea how to mind game.
Makes sense to get off if you see a wiggle. The problem with that is the survivor is going down in the open which should be a more rare thing. Then again everyone runs dh so if you see them spin over and over so that is also an indicator. I would then counter that soloq has to run a perk slot for what swf gets for free. It's just another thing that hurts soloq but swf shakes it off. Info perks are so valuable for soloq but you can just hope on a call with friends and get that for free.
No way out with noed is a very strong end game power spike. Corrupt is still fairly solid if you are going against strong teams. And the most sleeper perk is Gift of pain. If a killer has good down pressure (Nurse, spirit, blight) you can get amazing value from this perk. I was running gift of pain, agi, pain res on trapper and had some great games with it. The core problem with the perk is if you can't keep the tempo across the map then players just stay injured to bypass the slowdown. Did some games with that build on Nurse and was able to hard punish players trying to bypass the slowdown. Funny enough staying injured vs Nurse isn't a very smart thing to do.
It feels really bad because it's one thing or another. It might not be camping all the time but then it might be tunneling. Personally I feel like a see camping more than 1/20 games. Then again it might just be that the negative experiences stick.
There were rulebooks for both sides on release. If you pissed me off I could stand right in front of your hook and you're dying without being able to play the game anymore. If I wanted to I could bring a mori in and remove you on first down. If I was playing survivor and you face camped my team mate you might be staying in the game for an extra hour or two. The rulebook was made so everyone can have fun playing the extremely broken game.
Ayrun is a .01% player. There is a massive difference even going down to top 1%. Just because I'm a legacy player doesn't mean I'm one of the best player to every touch this game. I find camping to be a cheap and a extremely boring tactic for both sides. I'd much rather play a full meta loadout and go for hooks than be perkless but having to camp/tunnel.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323341#Comment_3323341
What hyperbole? The OP doubled down on that claim later in the thread. Unless...is this an alt?
What health? The game was Solo << Killer <<< SWF before 6.1.0. Now it's Solo <<< Killer << SWF. Sort of a lateral movement. And I've heard nearly every survivor streamer I've been watching over the past while talk about how much more fun they are having now...so?
Except he is no where near what you see from the survivors at soft cap. It's like saying killer pre 6.1 wasn't in need of buffs because the best players were winning games as killers. It simply is not indicative of the game state.
No, he's an indicator that you can do solo queue and still escape the vast majority of your games. Now, take someone with 5k hours, about the upper end of what I generally face. Let's say they escape half the time. That's still healthy.
I take "not that bad" as a small negative with "fine" being neutral. Hey, how bad is this injury? It's not that bad. I take that as minor problem.
And this is what I meant about semantics. Moving along.
Eruption doesn't have counterplay for soloq. If the killer kicks gen and leave I either tap and find another gen, gen tap(LOL), or hope a survivor doesn't go down before I complete the gen.
You know what - I'm a terrible survivor. But I'm going to be playing a fair bit next week, so if I see Eruption in a game I can record a few and show just how accurately I can usually predict when someone goes down with Empathy. Just need to figure out where to upload it.
Maybe...50-60% of the time within 10 seconds? And I can bet that more experienced survivors can do that far more reliably. How about we trade? You do your Demo claim and I'll do mine.
Unless you are saying that the counterplay is LOL just don't go down 4Head.
Yes, being able to run the killer for a while isn't just counterplay to Eruption, it's what survivors are supposed to do.
It's all about game delay. I don't see how it is relevant if it is regression or game delay, as both slow down the game. Thana is also game delay not regression.
Not sure what you're talking about to be honest. Nobody runs Thana, for the same reason that if folks like the OP gets their way, nobody will run Eruption.
Well the problem with OTR is killers can bypass it unless survivors use reassurance. The way you fix that is most likely reverting OTR and bringing back DS. If it aint broke don't fix it
DS is still a perfectly fine perk. I see it all the time in comp play. And not sure what reass is about here, because - yes - some killers can bypass Endurance, those cases need to be fixed, but that is not this discussion.
I want to say from 2018-2021
Shrug. You're welcome to your opinion. I think you're wrong, but whatever.
All I can say is - it wasn't until 2021 where they fixed most of the survivor-side exploits, and they still haven't fixed all of them.
Devs want killers to have a 60% kill rate.
And?
The problem with that kill rate is that it's not reflective of the game on the ground.
3 genning and camping/tunneling players out. Why would you 3 gen off the rip? You chase the first player and try to 3 gen with the hook. You now get pressure since the survivors need to save while you are defending a 3 gen at the same time. And I see camping all the time. If a killer falls behind they camp often. Sure if they control the game they won't do it much but when they fall behind I see it quite a lot.
I would include that in 'from the start'. Again, one game in about 550 now.
Define camping? Because I get called a camper constantly because people literally tried to unhook mid chase and I downed them.
Again, in the dataset I'm building (going up another 100-200 games or so, then posting it), excluding games where a killer camps to get 1 kill at endgame (which I don't think anyone is going to whine about unless they are really petty), is defending a hook because a survivor ran out in plain view or followed them or similar, it would be around...5% of games? Between 4% and 5% I'd say.
And okay, let's take your hypothesis here. If killers are having to camp in order to win games...what does that tell you?
50% would be smurfing? the top 5% of killers are around 61% on average. I would say it is safe to say they are at the soft cap and that is also taking into account swf. Is it really unrealistic to assume that soloq is down to 35% while swf is around 45% on average?
If you are trying to read a survivor going down at a pallet that won't really work since everyone and their mother runs dh and that counters playing dropped pallets with dh up. Just like there are issues with soloq there are problems with what survivors have. The only way I see you countering it is when you see a survivor looping and then drop working on the gen. Like its really not worth spending a perk slot and then on top of that having to take time off gens to avoid the perk. I would also say that it's unhealthy to have solo survivors to jump through hoops to avoid the 40 seconds regression.
Running the killer for a period of time is a lot to ask when there is bad MM. That's another problem with soloq imo. Like, yes you are not wrong in saying players should be able to hold their own but it just doesn't happened like that. The other players get punished for the game not making an equal squad.
misread about thana. Would say killers still have a large amount of slowdown perk even without eruption. If they made the perk 15% and 10 second incap it would still be a solid choice. Can run it with brine still and would make doing 3 gens not as strong. I personally think pop should see a buff or 2 since it was a much healthier perk compared to eruption but you know gotta change the meta, unless it is dh.
reassurance counters the counter to otr. If you want to counter otr you can proxy camp and hit the survivor that got off hook right away. They need to make it so you get 1 save but it works with endurance. That would make it like ds because right now the perk straight up doesn't work when you are getting camping and tunneled.
I would call a camper a person that guards the hooked player when no survivor is around.
If the killers need to camp hooks vs soloq rn then that tells me they're bad. Remember I'm a day one player. I was there when the rulebook was made.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323310#Comment_3323310
If that's what you took away from my responses, then you may well be right and should just stop. And no 'I'm right because I think I'm right' is not much better. That's circular.
You...aren't. I don't think you said a single accurate thing in that post.
But I will say this. If you've spent 10k hours doing something that makes you so incredibly and visibly miserable, then that's on you I'm afraid. Either find a SWF, switch to killer, or maybe look at a different game - something that isn't team based, maybe?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323311#Comment_3323311
If I'd said 'Blight was unplayable and terrible' then linking me a successful Blight main would have been perfectly fine.
'Not that bad' is miles away from 'fine'. Which, yes, is moving the goalpost, in this case by putting words in my mouth. I mean that, as the obviously sub-optimal way of playing this game, it's far from as awful as folks make it out to be.
Yes, Eruption has counterplay. No counterplay is 100% reliable, or else you've got a useless perk.
And, once again - no, that's not what I said (again, see why I feel like I'm wasting time? You can't even frame my responses honestly). I used what you described as an example - someone went down in the middle of a natural 3gen. That is 100% on them.
- Eruption is slightly mediocre versus coms, but it's also one of...what? 3? Good, reliable regression perks left to killers, precisely because of QQ threads like this. Thana? Overcharge? Ruin? And I can guarantee you that after Eruption gets axed, all that happens is the exact same complaint threads about PR+DMS.
- ...How the hell do you 'fix' tunneling without buffing SWF? You already have baseline BT, perks like OTR and Decisive Strike.
- Ditto camping.
- This is true of most of the issues that solos struggle with. Those issues are, at a certain level of play, absolutely essential for killers to contest a game against an SWF. Now, if you wanted to totally rework the game to remove tunneling and camping while massively buffing killers so that an SWF isn't an autoloss, then...fine? But you may as well ask for a gold played Ferrari. It's not going to happen.
- Mate, everyone from Ayrun to Dowsey to Otz has remarked how much less they see camping and tunneling now. And I've watched games from 2017...there was tons of it.
- 'Pad the stats'? What stats?
- Killers chased you...what are killers doing now? I'm still putting together the dataset I've mentioned a few times in other threads, but less than 7% of the games I played or watched had what I'd call camping or tunneling (no, I don't count defending a hook when there's a survivor obviously nearby, or ignoring someone I hooked before if I find them again either). I saw 1 game in over 500 now where a killer deliberately went for a 3gen from the start. 3gens outside of this are something survivors are responsible for.
Except he is no where near what you see from the survivors at soft cap. It's like saying killer pre 6.1 wasn't in need of buffs because the best players were winning games as killers. It simply is not indicative of the game state.
I take "not that bad" as a small negative with "fine" being neutral. Hey, how bad is this injury? It's not that bad. I take that as minor problem.
Eruption doesn't have counterplay for soloq. If the killer kicks gen and leave I either tap and find another gen, gen tap(LOL), or hope a survivor doesn't go down before I complete the gen. Unless you are saying that the counterplay is LOL just don't go down 4Head. If i physically see the survivor ion chase you can come off at moment you think they might go down but i don't find that to be common.
It's all about game delay. I don't see how it is relevant if it is regression or game delay, as both slow down the game. Thana is also game delay not regression.
Well the problem with OTR is killers can bypass it unless survivors use reassurance. The way you fix that is most likely reverting OTR and bringing back DS. If it aint broke don't fix it
You can't camp or tunnel a full team with OTR and Reassurance. The survivor never gets off the hook and you waste time proxy camping. If you leave they'll save and OTR protects from the tunnel. If you're really good you also bring For the people and insta heal the injured survivor to ensure the killer will lose if they try to tunnel. You can force the killer to spread hooks compared to soloq where you are kinda free to remove players without issue. OTR is also terrible game design perk as it informs the killer if you have it or not. I recall they made the obsession thing always happen after the ds nerf since players stopped using it for a period and killer would tunnel everyone when they knew it wasn't in play.
Camping and tunnel wasn't common once bbq was added and face camping was removed. I want to say from 2018-2021 there was very little of it. 2017 also still had 30 pallet maps and pallet vacuum. I would say 2017 was the worst year for dbd. The game legit almost died back then. Pretty sure that was also the time a dev told players to go play other games if they weren't happy with the state of the game.
Devs want killers to have a 60% kill rate.
3 genning and camping/tunneling players out. Why would you 3 gen off the rip? You chase the first player and try to 3 gen with the hook. You now get pressure since the survivors need to save while you are defending a 3 gen at the same time. And I see camping all the time. If a killer falls behind they camp often. Sure if they control the game they won't do it much but when they fall behind I see it quite a lot.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323292#Comment_3323292
I replied to you and the OP, who posted after you.
I gave Ayrun as counterexample - people can do bloody well in solo queue. And I watched those games, as well as his more recent streak attempts (where he'd get 5-8 in a row, then lose - still bonkers). There were a few where he hid and abused the exploit to never get crows, but most of them he played out straight. Very, very good survivor. And killers chased him all the time...because sadly, we can't see MMR in game.
I never said solo queue is fine...(see what I mean by moving the goalposts?).
I said that solo queue will always suck, because it kind of has to. There is no way to bring solo and SWF up to the same level, and you can't balance around solo queue without completely screwing killers over.
I used Ayrun - again (sigh) - as an example of how solo queue isn't quite as bad as everyone carps on about.
The problem with using aryun is like saying a killer like blight needs to be gutted because momo can win 99.8% of his games. We have stats stating that the top 5% of mmr killers are around 60%. Aryun just isn't what you see at the soft cap.
Not seeing how that is moving the goalpost. I'm saying this ######### is a dumpster fire and you seem to be saying that its not that bad. You have downplayed how bad certain things are. You did say eruption has counterplay or something like that before. When it comes to 3 gens you say its the survivors fault unless they did it at the start. That's bad rng and not bad MM. Things like that downplay how bad the game can be.
And you can bring soloq up closer to swf. Eruption is much, much better vs soloq than it is a swf on coms. Camping and tunneling are much, much better vs soloq than a swf on coms. They're widening the gap instead of closing it. Sure you can't have soloq right there with a 4 stack, but at the end of the day the game has some serious problems that only affect soloq. If I play with 3 other good players then bad MM doesn't affect me. Eruption is completely countered if a swf plays well on coms. Killers can't camp or tunnel if I'm in a 4 stack with everyone running OTR and Reassurance, but gl with that in soloq because it just doesn't work. OTR is counter by proxy camping with reassurance being a counter but soloq survivors have no idea if it's in play or if someone used it. It feels like soloq is more there to just pad the stats.
This is why the game was better back in the day. I could bring BT and DS and have killers chase me. The frustrating things about soloq is it's always something. If it isn't bad MM then its camping, tunneling, or killer doing a 3 gen. Back in my day killers actually chased players.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323284#Comment_3323284
No, it shows that I'm either being baited or am arguing with someone who is arguing for the sake of arguing. There are few things less productive than bickering over semantics on the internet, and we've basically been doing that for a while now. I've honestly lost track of even what your point is for a while now.
If you want to get back to that...fine. We were talking about SBMM versus RBMM and whether the game is better today than in 2017 overall. Otherwise, I'm just wasting my time.
I’m a 10k hr survivor main.
Firstly, I doubt it. Secondly...so? As a wise man once said - 'my bum has been a bum for a long time, but it doesn't mean it ever says anything worthwhile'. Playing the game for a long time does not make you automatically correct.
It just might mean you've been wrong for longer.
You can’t tell me I’m wrong about the games I play every day.
No. But I can tell you when your logic is wrong, or you have a bad opinion.
The game is balanced to swf
As it should be. Because the alternative would be massively unfair to killers. Survivors can choose to play solo or in an SWF, killers can't.
Most games (~85-90%) are solo
I'd have to dig up the post, but if I recall the stat that BHVR gave, this is untrue.
Matchmaking is awful and RARELY creates an all high mmr team
Objection, your Honor. Speculation.
Broken killers and builds destroy solo teams (Nurse, Blight, Spirit, Perma Mike, Coxcomb Wraith + Indoor map, etc
Broken SWFs and builds destroy killers. Yes, this game is not perfectly balanced, but you can't talk about balance on one side without looking at the other. Nurse is getting nerfed, and she's on the radar. Blight will almost certainly be next. Spirit...meh. Outside from one addon combination (which has been bugged for a while now) - are people still moaning about her? Myers needs a rework, sure. Wraith...no.
Camp/Tunnel playstyle destroys solo teams (with bad matchmaking pushes gens correctly)
With bad...what? No, I don't get your meaning here at all.
Hit validation is gone so we still get downed even though killer gets pallet stunned
And? Latency cuts both ways. I'll get pallet stunned from a meter away, or whiff a hit because the survivor isn't where the screen is telling me they are.
Various survivor gameplay issues seem to be acceptable to devs (same button for closet/vault on console, constant ‘failed skill checks’ giving away position without failing a skill check. Just stopping an interaction.)
*Laughs sadly in killer*.
- Console control issues are something else entirely. And, again, cut both ways.
- I've literally never seen that issue. Can you link a video or something?
You didn't reply totally to the right person.
The reason l bring up stream sniping is because it is a moot point to bring up. I bet money he used that build and a 2k killer will chase the 1600 survivors and not the 2800. This means the way you lose the streak is by someone sniping him and causing it to end by not allowing him to get to end game for his free escape. Implying soloq is fine because of this is just faulty thinking.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323272#Comment_3323272
You claimed there was no goalpost moving...and in the same post move the goalposts again by talking about stream sniping.
Yeah, no. Let's call it here. Because we've been going in circles for a while now.
Because I'm talking about how I would think he would lose the streak? What are you even on about.
Though the fact you didn't counter shows I hit the nail on the head. =)
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323234#Comment_3323234
Yeah, we're in semantics now. Which is why I'm not going to bother going further on those things, especially since you keep shifting goalposts.
I will say that Ayrun did...I think a 34 escape streak in solo queue? It's nowhere near as bad as folks make out.
There has been no goalpost moving? Op basically implies that killers with low hours can kill high hour players. I gave examples of how I agree with this in general for soloq and gave examples of this in my own experience. Saying its rng or the stars aligning is not a counter point to how a player used a certain strategy to easily win a game they shouldn't have won. It was eruption, camping/tunneling, and bad MM.
So lets talk about Ayrun. Wasn't he in Oracle when they were a top team? Didn't he play in hexy's tournament and play in the finals or semi-finals? So you are now using what I would say is a 2800 player to talk about how soloq is fine because he can do well at 1600.... I haven't watched the streak but I'm going do this crazy thing and predict what he did. Sole Survivor+ wake up and maybe a key+ hatch offering. When soloq team shits the bed and he can escape with a build built around the expectation of your team shitting the bed. Don't worry soloq fine is just fine just give up half your build and say f your team. I'm also guessing the streak ended with him being sniped and a player tunneling him out of the match. If I am wrong I would love to see the stream/youtube vid.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323202#Comment_3323202
Yeah, this anecdote keeps changing so I'm going to leave that alone for now.
And...uh, I'd say all team based PvP games have that sort of volatility at times, once they reach a certain level of complexity.
Infinites...ugh, you know what, I'm not going to spend my afternoon quibbling over semantics. Let's say 'pseudo infinites' and leave it at that, because just find/replace and my point is the exact same. Old DbD had major issues and new DbD is, for the most part, far superior.
I'm saying that those matches smelled weird to me - this isn't the calibre of player I see when Supaalf plays. But again, I don't know. And I've completely forgotten what point you were trying to make there.
Distortion...I get value from it almost every single game, because almost every killer uses some sort of aura based info perk, and the only ones that make it useless are maybe Mirror Myers and Hag, with specific addons. Again - I'm saying that if NTH is pantsing you, then run Distortion.
Yeah again, semantics. Not going to bother.
Mkay? I'm just saying it's odd for a legacy player to...you know what, don't sweat it. I think this conversation has run it's course.
Naw nothing changing you just can't make an excuses.
If a player is bronze in league of legends they will never beat a plat player. The entire thing is that you can vs soloq dbd.
Naw not semantics. One is how many hours you want to waste vs 30 seconds. Those windows also didn't matter at the time because 2018 was dead by spirit. It was spirit with a dash of insta saw Billy and Nurse
the point is that there is a player with 2 losses in 1k games in "High MMR". The fact there's a dude with a 99.8% win rate in a pvp game kinda shows that. 998/1000 but demo doing 90/100 is crazy bahha
SxyHxy(Hexy)- If you are playing soloq survivor there is something wrong with you. 6k hours I think
Angrypug- Soloq player from the start and is now not playing this game. 12k
Crazy how legacy streamers are not playing soloq anymore because of how bad it is.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323117#Comment_3323117
- Okay...but now we're talking about two different things. Yes, this game probably has too much RNG, and sometimes the stars can align and it gives one side a free win that they didn't 'deserve'. Sure. That's not an MMR issue, that's a balance/RNG issue.
- Again, you're now talking about another thing entirely. That same killer will now face stronger survivors.
- Empathy. And...why are we still talking about solo queue in a vacuum? That's like saying all killers need a buff because Trapper struggles. This game is not and cannot be balanced around solo queue.
- Infinites were absolutely not gone by 2017. Haddonfield had one until sometime in 2021 - I think you can still see it in Otz's Nemmy streak video, against a Claudette if I recall. Garden of Joy and Pale Rose still have potential infinites if certain things spawn a certain way. I started in 2019, and it was a nightmare, because *every single game* someone would run me to x pile of doodads or locker pair, go down and I couldn't pick them up. How on earth was that better?
- 'Fun chases'...ahahaha, yes I think I know what you mean. No, being able to loop a killer essentially forever, then pop DH, then run them some more, then potentially jump on a gen, get grabbed and still have DS...no. That was awful.
- Going to skip the gold stuff, as you've just shifted the goalposts hard.
- I watched a bit of that streamer and...something doesn't feel right here. Those survivors are running some weird perks, looping strangely, a lot of suicides and DCs. I don't want to make any accusations, but the last time I saw this sort of thing it was someone on another killer who it turned out was basically AFKing out dozens of games between streams to tank their MMR.
- No, people complained about SBMM because of long queues and games being too 'sweaty' at the cap, which...indicated that it was working.
- Countering NTH - Distortion. Fade away, then circle around and come back. Yes, you can buy time with it...because if you could 100% counter it effectively and you couldn't buy time with it - would that be good perk design?
- Shrug. I'm just saying - that's quite a claim and something you would need to back up with some proof. 45/50 games on Demo. While playing chill. At a high MMR. That is what you claimed - which is why I'm curious.
- What Nurse weapon? I can't see anything like that on your profile - which seems to be pretty new. Do you have a YT or Twitch channel where I could verify...literally any of this?
A player that has no clue on correctly playing loops camped and tunneled 2 weak players on a team and used eruption to completely stall the game and beat a 6k hour legacy solo player. There is no rng or star aligning here. If they don't have the eruption to stall, they lose. If there was better MM, they lose. They won because there was 2 weak players that they tunneled and camped in a 3 gen and used eruption to completely negate the progress the other 2 players were making. There is not a single pvp game you get wins like that.
Infinites are when you literally can not down a player ever. I can only recall that on haddonfield main with BL and maybe house of pain. There was also a farm map where huntress running it the wrong way would be an infinite. A god window is an infinite but you are in chase and the window will lock. Garden of joy is a god window. There were a crazy amount of god windows back in 2017 but I don't recall infinites being a issue anymore. Pretty sure at that time they already boarder up the windows and I think it was 1.1.0 where the anti infinite mechanic was added.
So a person in school is getting out of school to tank their mmr and then come online to then win games. Since you want to talk about Otz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7CH6kjvqpg&t=1717s Isn't laser like the best nurse right now? Crazy how he put momo vs laser. momo must be de-ranking off stream. It doesn't look good when you think a player like that isn't winning off skill but being paired with bad players. Expect he is getting paired with bad players it's just that there is no high mmr in this game. That is the soft cap.
So you are running a perk in the hopes the killer has aura reading? I would take 4 distortions to counter 1 killer perk all day.
Gold mmr isn't high mmr. I would even argue its more low mmr. high mmr is more like diamond. Even with the old SBMM it was low mmr in prime time. That's why players like otz could afk and then win every game. Most players thought he was lowering mmr and not understanding that the mmr was 1900 cap and +-500. Back at that time you would have survivor queues hit 10-15 minutes and games where you could basically play naked demo and still 4k. I would know because I played Demo with bbq, shadowborn, and corrupted.
The pictures n my reply of demo and Nurse builds. The Nurse weapon is legacy.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323033#Comment_3323033
Well...that's a weak link going down in a very silly place. This isn't a balance thing, this is a 'we got outplayed' thing. You were let down by a teammate.
Eruption - here's the thing. Pop - you hook, you find a gen, you dump a pop into it. There's nothing survivors can do. Eruption - you first need to kick a gen, then have it not be finished mid chase. Then you have to hope that survivors don't have the gamesense to let go, or that nobody calls it out. I've taken Eruption off my bars because even solo queue bunny rabbits are getting savvy on the timing and the hard games, the ones with a spooky SWF, make it sort of useless.
The game was absolutely not in a better state in 2019. Infinites, exploits, every map having a 'you can't pick me up from here' spot, generally more than 1. Crazy imbalanced perks like old DS and OoO. Stupid, stupid maps like Haddonfield.
Could RBMM have been reworked into something better? Sure. But it's a fait accompli at this point.
SBMM...people overestimate how many folks are capped.
No, you're not facing 'gold' players at the MMR cap. I was gold maybe two weeks after I started, and the only time you'll see a 30 hour player matched against the 8,000 monsters at MMR cap are volatility, lobby dodges or smurfing.
That 600 winstreak is Supaalf. On Nurse. With more hours on her than most people have total. And a fully stacked build. That's an anomaly, and...really doesn't prove anything besides 'yeah, Nurse maybe needs some tweaks'.
SBMM used to be a bit more selective at the higher end, but people complained about the ridiculous queue times they were getting.
Yes, we can trade anecdotes all morning, but anecdotes really don't prove anything.
Nowhere to Hide...what? The only reason this perk works is because survivors get cocky and try to hide near a gen (or I guess on indoor maps on Nurse, but this isn't Dead by Nurselight). Call of Brine is completely fine - the only reason it sees usage now is because of how mediocre most other regression perks are.
Yeah, we're not talking about an anecdotal nightlight stat. You said 45 wins in 50, while still playing chill (implied, at higher MMRs). That's what I want to see, because that would prove your point pretty conclusively.
The ball is in your court, mate. I'm always up to watch some incredible Demo gameplay at that sort of win rate...while playing chill - which was your claim. Really curious to see you pull it off.
A new player should not be getting free wins vs players that are much higher skill. This is the only pvp game where this is happening. The problem here is there is zero agency for a soloq player. Killers can be handed free wins over soloq with a gen kicking build and bad MM.
I don't know what game sense you are talking about to know when to let go of a gen when the killer is on the other side of the map. Sure if you can see the chase you can avoid it, but that's really it.
Pretty sure infinites where gone by 2017. The only thing that was left were the god windows, and if I recall correct those were changed in 2019. The only true infinites in the game was against 110 killers from my memory. However, I think even then it was only haddonfield they were a true infinite since huntress could run loops one way to be able to throw hatchets. Killers also had Spirit and Nurse, and OoO was a fairly uncommon perk while being amazing when you were Nurse. Not saying it was all sunshine and rainbows back then but you at least would get fun chases unlike what it is now. I feel like when I play survivor it's the killer playing in the most boring way possible. Also, I forgot BL was still a thing back then. I don't remember any issue outside of Hanndonfield for that perk. Can't think of any other map where that perk was a really, really bad.
When I'm talking about gold I'm more talking about ranks in other games. Silver is around 1300, Gold around 1600, plat around 1900, and Diamond around 2200. In dbd the game is Gold+. This is why higher players win all their games since they are smurfing.
https://www.twitch.tv/momoseventh has over 600 with blight with double speed. Alf also used omega blink on a bunch of his games. I'm pretty sure momo lost 2 games over 1k games played. He had his streak and then another large one he lost.
Players complained about SBMM because they were only getting Nurse and Blight at the cap.
Nowhere to hide counters the downside call of brine has. If you want to counter call of brine you stealth and then get back on the gen when the killer leaves. Nowhere to hide counters this strat since you will spot the survivor. You can stall games very well on these two perks alone.
I'm talking about making a account and logging a few sessions on the site. I had a 82% kill rate back in Oct. while trying but still looking to have fun. Aka I would tunnel off hook if it was a bad save or chase the player that had more hooks. Not doing this things I would be winning 9/10 games. Not really understanding how you think it's some insane feat. You can go watch Bronx play and win his games with meme builds. Pretty sure Scottjund also wins basically every game if he is using more serious builds, and he plays chill all the time. I'm a legacy player that has played this game since 1.0.0. That Nurse weapon Is legacy.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322741#Comment_3322741
Mkay. Let's look at your examples.
- This game is very snowbally and occasionally a touch RNG. Sometimes the stars align and you get really nutty fountain spawns on Plague, for example, and that sort of carries you. But the inverse is possible too - terrible spawns and a map that basically plays itself for survivors. And that's not even the most extreme - some maps can still spawn literal, no-kidding infinites.
- Similarly, one really bad play from a survivor - especially getting grabbed at a hook - can instantly let the killer snowball. It's just...sort of how the game is. But without that comeback potential, it would be really dull.
- That Wraith game seems to be, from your description, a case where 1 great player and 3...well, players like me get put up against a killer slightly higher MMR than the 3 but much lower than the 1.
- Survivor is a team role. That means your teammates can let you down. It's why solo is the least optimal way to play this game.
- You're RBMM example makes no sense. People complained constantly that it was too easy to hit purple or iri ranks, and they were getting 200 hour teammates to their 4,000 hours. Again, MMR isn't perfect but it's way better, if only because - outside of some volatility situations or lobby dodges - it's a bit more nuanced.
- SBMM is...what? No, that's the exact opposite of how it works.
- I want to see you do that on Demo. Seriously, do it and upload those matches. Because I'm calling shenanigans unless you're smurfing down your MMR between matches. Because I'm a solid Demo player and there's no way I could do that.
The plague found a weak link and made a 3 gen around her. She was legit carried by eruption, and I think I was hit 3 times on the same gen before I gave up. If I recall correct each proc of eruption is 40 seconds of game delay while old pop was only 20.
I only remember the 100 hour players in red ranks when they made reset only go back one color. I would agree that the last part of RBMM was bad because they never did resets. All they had to do with the old system is make it harder to rank up and remove the safety pips for purple and up. I would say back in 2018/19 the game was in a much healthier state than what it is now. At least in RBMM it was more about the chases than kills/escapes.
SBMM is capped at 1600. Once you hit that soft cap you can play with players that have 2800 mmr and all the way down to around 1400. My Nurse games can have players that legit no clue how to play vs the killer. I basically never lose with the killer so it isn't like I should be playing vs new players. I've seen streamers that get 500-600 win streaks with mmr. The reason they can do that is because it's top players going against gold players in most of their games. When I play soloq it is a living hell at soft cap. So many killers just do a kick build and defend a 3 gen. If you don't see that then you are going to see camping/tunneling in most of the other games. If you lower your mmr is basically the same unfun experience.
When I did nightlight I think I had a 82% kill rate over 18 games with Demo. I had a Wesker daily and ended up getting lerys with him. I had 2 hooks with 4 gens done and they ended up having them spend legit 10 minutes to get the last gen vs a 1 slowdown killer. There is a massive difference in power from the top-end of builds to even mid-range. I would say Call of brine and Nowhere to hide is already going over the edge in terms of power. You then add eruption and it is way over the top for what killers should have in 3 gen scenarios. The only games I struggle with Demo is when players know they're in control of stack gain and then also pre-leave gens. And I don't even try to force 3 gens with the killer or focus on removing a player asap. In my opinion I would call that playing chill.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322650#Comment_3322650
RBMM was much, much worse than SBMM. There's no correlation between emblems and skill, and that makes RBMM problematic. I'd prefer tighter SBMM myself as someone who typically suffers in solo queue if I'm not playing killer. Solo players get the worst of the current system.
Back in the day reset would send you to r10 as a r1 player. If you were not that strong as a survivor it would take a good amount of time to get back into red ranks. This made the early reset fairly sweaty as the stronger players are rushing back to r1. You would have a period of time where the games were fairly hard and then would become more laid back closer to the next reset. Ranks didn't really mean anything, but the time it took to get to red ranks did. In the early reset you would at least see players that either are able to pip/double pip every game or are playing non-stop. I personally see this current system a total ######### show, so having something is better than nothing in my mind.
Maybe I'm biased on the fact that camping and tunneling where basically not used once bbq came out and face camping was removed. Until SBMM those were never playstyles on pc since you would just die and go next. You would actually get strong killer and survivor games where the game was centered around chases, and the system encouraged it. Now the games are mostly about playing in extremely unfun ways and MM is still trash. I do see how players that were newer are much better off now than back then. I would say making more ranks and harder to pip would have been way better than the terrible system the game has now. The old system was off what players were doing in the game and not did you kill/escape.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322667#Comment_3322667
If those survivors didn't know how to beat a 3gen...then that's a 'them' problem. But you say she didn't know how to chase, which means she was chasing. So it wasn't a '3gen at the start'...meaning that you essentially 3genned yourselves.
The first sentence of the RBMM stuff was precisely my experience - just smurfs and Iri/purple survivors stomping me flat. I see that so, so much less under SBMM.
You say 'chill', and what I often hear when people say that about RBMM is that they were facing players far weaker than they were. Here's the thing about DbD - if you aren't playing 'sweaty' and still winning the majority of your games, then your MMR isn't high enough and it'll eventually even out.
That's...whataboutism. But whatever. Solo queue has always been bad. It was bad under ranks and it's bad under MMR. This game cannot be balanced around solo, because then SWF becomes nearly unbeatable.
Survivors can choose to play in a SWF. Killers cannot choose. Thus, the game has to be balanced, at least partially, around the potential of killers getting an SWF.
It's a game problem if a bronze player is winning games vs players much better than them. An easy way to look at it is if I had an entire group of soloq at my skill level. Now this plague is so outclassed to the point that she literally doesn't get a single hook in 5 gens(she got a 4k).
Hell I had a game yesterday were a wraith chased me and then dropped chase and ignored me for the rest of the game. Once he kills the 3 other players he then spends 5 minutes to just down me once. There is not a single game out there that allows players that are that outclassed to still win games. The funny thing is that unless I find hatch he wins those games every single time. I simply have zero agency over the game if the killer ignores me and my team can't hold their own. The only real way to escape as soloq is to make an entire build around escaping through the exit gate/hatch when you get bad teams. In my opinion that's just bad game design.
Now we go to the good old RBMM. In the 2 games I mention I can at least rank up and get better survivors. I might lose those games back in the day but I have agency in getting better players through pips. If I'm already at r1 I can simply wait for reset and rush to r1 to get better players. There is at least windows were you get good games unlike what this game is now(play swf or don't expect a fun experience).
SBMM is capped at gold. I can play Nurse with no add-ons with one slowdown perk and win 48/50 games while also playing chill. I can play demo with 3 game delay perks and I can still win like 45/50 while still playing chill. With RBMM the week before reset was when more of the casual players would be hitting red ranks where match quality would go down the drain. So if you wanted to play chill with lower tier killers you could do it at the end of the reset and play survivor at the start to get an overall decent gaming experience. I personally was always at red ranks even on release so maybe I just see things from a different perspective.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322650#Comment_3322650
If you mean 'stake out a 3gen at the start and literally just run the timer down, not making any effort to chase and just pushing people off gens' then sure...but that's basically an exploit, as Peanits recently confirmed and will get you banned. You may as well say 'well, anyone can win by hacking'.
If they aren't doing that, and are actually chasing/downing then a SWF can absolutely beat them. And no, we aren't talking about 'better', we're talking about a team of 10,000 hour players versus a 10 hour killer. Those are the parameters the OP established.
Even in solo queue, that 10 hour killer will lose. I don't even think they'd have many decent perks yet.
RBMM...hahahaha no.
I started under RBMM and it was a special kind of hell. Monthly reset? It's chaos for a week. Play a lot? It really doesn't take many lucky breaks to get into purples, and then you're facing Iris. RBMM was crapola, unless you were a veteran, and...then it was crapola for your opponents.
SBMM isn't perfect, but dammit is it an improvement.
I've had a plague that didn't know how to play loops and beat me because she did a 3 gen and 2 survivors didn't know how to beat it. It was basically a 2v1 which we eventually lost.
I would take what OP is saying as extremely exaggerated. I can't think of a game where a diamond player can struggle vs bronze players, but in dbd you can lose games if you arn't bringing a build that doesn't rely on the other survivors for escape in soloq. MM in this game is all over the place. You can get games where people never do gens and the next where players are doing nothing but gens.
RBMM was 100% better imo. Soloq players would literally face nothing but release spirit, 3 blink Nurse, and insta saw billy while still ranking up. You would actually get games at the start that were hard for both sides and then it would go into more chill games later in the month. It gave you options if you wanted to play sweaty or more chill. I can see maybe players that were newer at that time creeping up to r1 and have a bad time. The argument I would say for that is every game for soloq is a bad time for me. At least back then you felt like there was more control on what you were looking for.
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@StarLost said:
...What?
As others have pointed out, this is not a thing that happens unless that 10 hour player is a smurf, or those 10,000 hour players are deranking. I recently faced a comp squad as a 1,000 hour killer and unless they were in a literal deadzone (and even then) I struggled to get a hit. Or watch some Ayrun games and see just how amazingly you can juke a killer, as a 10,000 hour player.
Honestly...not sure what you're on about here.
Matchmaking is...eh. 'Perfect' is always the enemy of 'better'. And it's better than RBMM.
A player much worse than one other player 100% can win. A mediocre 500 hour killer can beat a soloq team better than them by just doing a 3 gen strat. Even if you don't want to do that strat you can just ignore the one player and focus on the other 3.
SBMM is so bad that when they did a stream years before doing it they said they wouldn't do kills and escapes because it would be bad for the game. RBMM is objectively better than SBMM because RBMM would let you play on reset and sweat and then go into more chill games later in the month. It also had survivor agency unlike this trash system that requires you to rely on the other 3 survivors to gain mmr. The only time RBMM was worse than what we have now is when they removed the reset.