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@Journeywalker said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2760297#Comment_2760297
The downside is that not all killers CAN end it themselves (without disconnecting). If survivors are determined to make a game last indefinitely, they can stop at 4 gens and start messing with the overmatched killer. At least with EGC there’s a 2 min. time limit, during which survivors go to opposite gates, flashlight stun for the last survivor to go look for hatch, or otherwise needlessly prolong the trial.
I asked you for the downside of pushing out Survivors waiting at the gate.
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Yeah, unfortunately I've long since come to the opinion that Pig just does not have the tools to do much vs good players. Her ambush is too easily played around at the one place it's supposed to be okay at (loops), and her Traps are wildly inconsistent and can't be used until she wins a chase with only a super mediocre anti-loop tool.
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@Journeywalker said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2760222#Comment_2760222
As stated above, it’s not about ego, it’s about being forced to do something to stop someone from wasting your time. The BM is just the pickle on the ######### sandwich.
I don't buy it. What is the downside to ending it yourself?
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"and the justification that 'the killer can end it when they want to' just simply doesn't work when some killers don't want to deal with needless toxicity."
Why doesn't it work? This sounds like an issue of ego more than anything.
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Nemesis. I assume his rocket launcher is nearby. ;)
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Include a clause in the TOS that legally allowes BHVR to feed repeat offenders to the Sarlacc.
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"Nerf: The Pig begins the game with an active Reverse Bear Trap."
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@[Deleted User] said:
That's why he originally had the sound cue for when he got to like 80%. They removed it though because they considered it too much information
😕
They should at least bring it back for the Tombstone add-ons IMO.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
When the killer bans BT, DS, and IW and goes to town as Spirit and as payback the survivors ban Ruin, Pop, Pain Resonance, and Corrupt and bring Prove Thyself + Built to Last + stacked toolboxes.
I don't think banning perks is the way forward- sorry. Banning maps I could absolutely get behind- the survivors and killers can pick one map each to vote on being banned, with the killer's vote counting for 4. The map with the highest votes is banned, and if two maps each have 4 votes then they're both banned.
Alternatively, choice-limiting perks to other perks and powers is something else I feel like could help the game, even if it is a bit late to implement it. Decisive Strike cannot be run with Unbreakable, for example, or Borrowed Time and Dead Hard. You can't combine Ruin and Tinkerer together, either- nor, in fact, can you use Monitor and Abuse on Deathslinger (who's Terror Radius becomes 24m again).
"the survivors and killers can pick one map each to vote on being banned, with the killer's vote counting for 4. The map with the highest votes is banned, and if two maps each have 4 votes then they're both banned."
Doesn't this mean in practice that only the Killer's vote matters unless all Survivors vote for the exact same map?
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@dictep said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2755314#Comment_2755314
And?? There’s so many players it shouldn’t be a problem. Only 100% fcecampers would be affected
I remember reading an article about how Overwatch implemented this exact system and then removed it because good players were suffering as a result.
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Now that I get how the open-hand thing works, not sure I am okay with it, as the counterplay of lockers isn't reliable if Myers can 99 Tier 2 and then fire off Tier 3 when they think they are close enough to hit the insta-kill.
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@Kurri said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2755163#Comment_2755163
Drop them after they deal with the Hacker issue. There are a lot of hackers that keep using the same screen name, it's nice having the ability to just lobby dodge those lobbies.
I'd prefer sticking around to record and report that person.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2755448#Comment_2755448
But it would help... I am not saying much, but might be enough so it doesn't feel that annoying. Mending is still better than nothing imo.
I am not fan of nuclear nerfs. RIP Deathslinger.
Gotta disagree there, unfortunately. That said, I'm not sure if the correct solution is as simple as "just remove distance." I think this is a much more complicated problem that requires a delicate touch to avoid destroying the perk.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2755260#Comment_2755260
I agree with the sentiment, but I'd also point out that against newcomers, Lullaby is probably going to hit max stacks much more consistently anyway. Newcomers aren't as quick to go hunt down and cleanse a totem, after all.
This is a good point, but to be fair, at least as-is it ramps them into it. Going max stacks right out the gate is likely to throw off people who are still getting the hang of skill checks if they will randomly go into games where they don't exist (initially).
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2755443#Comment_2755443
Removing I-frames or replacing it with Endurance would help for sure...
I don't want to make it useless.
Not by as much as you seem to think, in my opinion. ESPECIALLY not if you replace i-frames with Endurance.
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@Kurri said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2755266#Comment_2755266
What if the only thing you can do in that moment is slug to apply pressure. Picking up could throw the whole game in a lot of situations, and take too much time.
Hence why I said "doesn't mean you can always pick someone up without reprecussion."
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2755260#Comment_2755260
They have to learn at some point. Even if it wax buffed to be better, it’s not anywhere near good enough to be meta. It’d still be super niche, and thus rare to see anyways.
They ain't gonna learn if their early-game experiences are frustrating enough to push them to quit instead. One of the bigger issues with this game, among other issues, is that it is EXTREMELY unkind to newbies.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2755054#Comment_2755054
And I am saying that it's weird to want counterplay from it, when other exhaustion perks don't have it neither.
It has actually less counterplay with I-frames...
All I'm saying is that your proposed change does not deal with the primary issue a number of people have with DH. Opinions I have to other exhaustion perks are a separate discussion altogether.
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What? It totally has a counter. It's called pick up the person. Doesn't mean you can always pick someone up without reprecussion, but not slugging is blatantly the way to play around it.
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I feel like that would make the perk miserable for newcomers. I get and support balancing for the top end, but I don't think the lower end shoud be shut out of the equation entirely.
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TBH, I don't really see any significant upside to having Survivor names visible in the lobby. I say drop 'em.
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@AngyKiller said:
I'm tired of seeing 'Copy other games!' threads in forums for EVERY GAME.
Even in Phasmophobia, people are like 'You should be more like DBD!' off and on. Or 'You should be more like Ghost Hunter Corps!'.
Why don't we make every game like Pac-Man on the Atari? Or better yet; the grandfather of all games: Pong? Who needs originality? Just copy whatever someone else does!
Dead By Daylight should copy Diddy Kong Racing.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754879#Comment_2754879
It could if it was still possible to hit that survivor.
It wouldn't ignore killer powers. It wouldn't get you away after you got mindgamed. It would be possible to body-block you.
How do you play around Sprint Burst, Lithe, or Balance Landing?
Not really unless you were one of a specific few Killers that for the most part could do the same thing already by just waiting until they DH.
I'm only talking about Dead Hard, not exhaustion perks as a whole.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754027#Comment_2754027
Sure, but I-frames also protects you against ranged powers, traps, Victor and let you move through a killer. It's also way easier to use because of them and you can get away with using it on reaction.
It would be more risky to use without I-frames, at least around loops.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be more risky, but distance is still generally considered to be the most powerful part of the perk by far because it is the part of the perk that can't really be played around.
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I actually think it's the more interesting part of the gas.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2753963#Comment_2753963
Yeah, but you often can use it because of I-frames.
It would be harder to use without it.
And it wouldn't be possible to DH through killer anymore, also wouldn't work on Victor, ranged powers (unless you actually dodge it to side), traps.
Sure, the i-frames make it better, but to my understanding, the real power of it is to get that LITTLE extra bit of distance exactly when you need it to reach a point that will safely allow you to extend the chase that much further.
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@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2753913#Comment_2753913
I hate validation more...
This way DH wouldn't save you if you get mind gamed etc.
The general consensus, to my knowledge, is that the main strength of Dead Hard is being able to be greedy with your chase knowing that you can use the extra distance to make up for it.
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@Marc_123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2752637#Comment_2752637
Seems to be before my time - what did he do before the rework?
Suck terribly.
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@Marc_123 said:
Fear not - when was the last time a killer was stronger after a rework? I guess only small changes.
Leatherface?
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I want a Freddy-sized rework for Legion. :P
Or at least a Doctor-sized re-work.
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@cordonrouge said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2752205#Comment_2752205
the game used to function with normal hook states, making the survivor able to delay the game for 2 minutes, which is not what im proposing. DS is not the only perk in existence and there's countless variables that would make you able to survive. but fine, let's find yet another solution.
"Curtain's call" status effect: once only one survivor is left, both killer and survivor have all cooldowns on their skills halved (ds would be 30 seconds). also crawling, bleeding out, frequency of blood pools left on the ground, recovery speed, wiggling speed, killer carrying speed are all increased by 50%.
this would make the end game fast paced so that both killers and survivor can use everything up their sleeves faster and whoever wins, wins. it would also help in common situations where you're slugged but the killer cant find you, forcing both to wait for your bleeding out timer.
im sure if i could come up with this in 10 seconds an entire game balancing team at BHVR could make a more elegant solution that both avoids game stalling and bm, and at the same time doesn't rob the last survivor of his chance at escaping which is an already established game mechanic.
said mechanic was only removed to prevent BM, but band-aid fixes like these instead of actual solutions to problems are terrible design and why the fanbase basically hates BHVR. see bubba mask removal controversy (or literally any of the game balance changes.)
Your solution seems very arbitrary and doesn't add anything to the game. What makes this a better system than what we have now?
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@Toybasher said:
I forgot exactly when, but I DO remember in early builds of DBD, "Auto-Sacrifice" for the last survivor wasn't a thing.
The survivor could attempt escape and struggle the entire duration.
Was changed to how it works now to move the game along when the last survivor is hooked so it's over with quicker and people can move on to the next match/end the play session.
I will say while I think it's better for "health" of the game, it was a source of survival BP for survivors (struggling the entire duration) and BP for killers (Kick pallets, gens, spam your power if just using it gives you BP, etc.)
I think a good compromise is not auto-sacrificing on the first hook stage, but sacrificing on the second since at that point the match is over. When it triggers, give the survivor a flat amount of survival BP similar to if they struggled the entire duration.
I think you can just give both sides a flat BP sum without the need for waiting until the second hook stage.
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"Hi, I'm Lisa calling you from Delaware BPO. How are you doing today? Glad to hear that. At Delaware BPO, we handle your company's incoming and outgoing customer calls at a very cheaper rate. So if you are interested to hire us, please say yes."
And then the robocall immediately hangs up before you can answer, leaving you to ponder how in the hell these scam calls can reach the Entity's realm.
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@Minecraft said:
they should have never existed in the first place and they barely make any difference as far as i'm concerned. they're only there to piss off solo players, really. the games where someone would have dc'd aren't really worth playing anyway.
at the end of the stay people still dc, whether the penalties are on or off
People DC way more when it's off. Players report as such, and the devs have confirmed it with their internal stats.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2750519#Comment_2750519
Yea, it's not worth it for you. For someone who uses deliverance or gets the 4% is well worth it.
M1 to down. GG.
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2750558#Comment_2750558
12 seconds is barely enough time to make it to a tile. And about endgame scenario: BT endgame save has no counter when you hook close to exit gate against a full team of survivor. Maybe if you made enough mistakes to not kill anyone before this stage, and hook right in front of the exit... maybe, maybe, its legit that you can't do much about it anymore. Thats how it should be. You made too many mistakes prior to it and should be punish for it.
"12 seconds is barely enough time to make it to a tile."
12 seconds at 4.0 m/s means you have travelled 48 meters by the time BT expires. That is plenty of distance.
"Thats how it should be. You made too many mistakes prior to it and should be punish for it."
Hard disagree. That's like saying you shouldn't be able to get the hatch because your team made too many mistakes and didn't get any gens done.
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@PlayTwink said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2750530#Comment_2750530
5 minutes of my precious time.
Yes, only five minutes of that.
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Hackers - DC penalty =/= 0
Hackers - DC penalty = Hackers + lots of DCing
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2750386#Comment_2750386
So delusional. What you say while ignoring everything is: " no counter to bt in endgame. Should no be basekit". When i have solid arguments as to why it should be base kit "without BT survivors would get demolished cause they couldn't save". That is also why i told you about that custom game... and see what would happen if killers know survivors has no counters to camping/ tunneling.
Where did I say in this thread BT should not be base kit at all? All my points to you were specifically to the point you made about BT being counterable as a reason for it not needing to be changed in order to be base kit. You did not acknowledge the post I made about 12 seconds being plenty of time to make it to the exit gate and instead went on about "watch what happens when you can't use DS/BT" and stuff, which is a separate discussion altogether.
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@cordonrouge said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2750333#Comment_2750333
I didnt miss your post, and my reply still applies to what you said, but i'll try to respond specifically to what you said so you can understand better.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2750138#Comment_2750138
Let's say the killer doesn't leave the hook. i succeed that 4%, i get instantly downed, then one of the following happens:
he picks me up: i ds then proceed to
1)run to the nearest open exit gate.
2)run hoping to come across hatch.
3)run, hide, and lose him. this gets you into the typical 1v1 endgame situation.
4) die.
he doesnt pick me up: (maybe he expects a dead strike, maybe there's no hook nearby because of breakdown.)
1)i crawl to the nearest open exit gate.
2)i soul guard, tank the hit, then run and hide / run and find hatch / run to nearby exit gate, whatever.
3) die.
The dichotomy between picking or not picking up the survivor is already in itself a mind game and a gameplay mechanic, since the killer has no way of knowing what perks you have. does he risk the deadstrike? does he risk you crawling near the exit gate then getting up with soul guard?
sure, the chances are slim. in most cases you will just get re-hooked and die, losing a precious 15 more seconds of your life that would still be gained if they applied quality of life changes to the animation issues that i brought up in the original post, where you waste time looking at all these struggle animations.
by this logic, if there's 4 gens to do and just two survivors on death hook left, the game should randomly execute one of them so the match can proceed, since it's unrealistic that they're both getting out. where do we draw the line between what's not possible and what is? why does the game decide for us when to give up or not?
We draw the line where it is currently drawn because randomly executing one of the last two Survivors doesn't make sense when all players have agency in deciding who is one to survive longer.
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2750372#Comment_2750372
Because you don't understand what balances this game.
You are ignoring the points I am making and making arguments about things I never said nor even implied.
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2750320#Comment_2750320
Play a custom game where the survivors can't bring BT/ DS. Ask the killer to camp/ tunnel hard everytime. Play as and against it. Maybe you'll understand the actual balance of the game better. Because you clearly see things only from a killer point of view. And make a fuss of a non-issue.
I am not interested in discussing scenarios without BT because I have not argued anything about a scenario without BT at all. Also, who said anything about DS?
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@PlaysByShady said:
Why? At that point, after the Survivors have left, the Killer has 0 goals but to camp you. What purpose would you have to wait until they leave to attempt the kobe?
The killer still has to make their way back, assuming they don't go on a detour to search for the hatch.
And it's not just one scenario, there's plenty!
Imagine being downed and hooked near the gate, and you've still got DS. It's completely possible that you could kobe, and even if you're downed before you make it out, DS (as much as I hate it in this scenario) would still grant you an escape
These scenarios are still fringe enough that it is not worth the time waste.
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@PlaysByShady said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2750345#Comment_2750345
You should also be able to afterwards too. The point being that you can't state arbitrarily there's no point even being granted the attempt.
There is no point. If you had that option, Killers wouldn't chase Survivors to the opposite end of the map to let you safely kobe.
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@PlaysByShady said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2750135#Comment_2750135
That's not true at all. Consider a scenario where you've just been hooked, and the killer chases everyone out of the gates at the other side of the map. You still deserve the kobe attempts.
Also, plenty of killers leave to look for the hatch (I do).
You can't state with absolute certainty that every kobe will result in death.
You can kobe in that scenario before everyone else leaves.
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@cordonrouge said:
Im honestly just saddened by these replies because they perfectly reflect the general attitude of this community, and also because 90% are arguing with me about points that i already adressed in the OP, reason why it is a big wall of text. It makes me wonder why you're engaging in the discussion at all if you can't be bothered to read the whole thing.
In general, killers think they're entitled to the kill.
Survivors on the other hand really don't care about surviving, they just want to have their nice little moments where they stun and loop the killers for hours or "outplay" him in whatever way, and if that doesnt happen they're ready to give up and go on to the next game. their only concept of "fun" is at the killer's expense, the more they frustrate him the more fun it is for them.
You guys seem to think that the only way to play this game is by looping around a tile indefinitely, and ignore the fact that you CAN lose the killer, and you CAN run him around for quite a distance if you actually RUN instead of mindlessly going around a loop (which i dont know how you think is engaging or fun gameplay).
Both of these things are what i do despite having several hundred hours of gameplay under my belt, and (for what is worth after the new rank system) being effortlessly iridescent 1.
if everyone played like that, the killer would lose just as much time finding survivors and then losing them repeatedly than being looped until you get downed. it's just as efficient and it's how the game was originally intended to be played until the loop exploit was discovered and made into an integral part of the game.
The only moment i loop is if we're just two survivors and i try to keep him off the last gen while my partner is doing it, or whatever.
But back to my point, which is related. Most of you are under the misconception that if you happen to unhook yourself, you're done for. but guess what, if you have the right perks, you can run the killer around the map while looking for the hatch, or lose him and try to open an exit gate. it's really that simple. but since this gameplay aspect doesn't even cross your mind, stuck in the conviction that the only thing you can do is run around the same spot while others do objectives, you don't consider the notion that im presenting in my OP.
Again, i cannot stress this enough, your points about the hook state being used to BM have already been adressed in the original post with several easy solutions that i proposed.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2750139#Comment_2750139
Personally i only run breakdown, and with 3 other hooks down by the death of other survivor it is a guaranteed wiggle in most cases. i just proposed other EXAMPLES of perks that would make it so that it's not necessarily game over if you unhook yourself.
It literally does not matter which perk build you use. The ratio of "still gonna die" to "will actually escape" will still be so heavily in the former's favor that it is not worth the additional time waste (and that is not factoring in the BM time waste with just staying on hook, which I didn't even consider until someone else brought it up).
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2750281#Comment_2750281
I don't put words in your mouth, it is what your position implies. You're complaining about survivors having a chance at escaping with BT in endgame when it is not a guarantee unless the hooked survivor is right next to an exit gate... something you can actually work around, and try to put the survivor further away. Unlike survivors who can't work around camp/ tunnel without that perk.
"it is what your position implies."
Incorrect for the reason I listed above.
"You're complaining about survivors having a chance at escaping with BT in endgame when it is not a guarantee unless the hooked survivor is right next to an exit gate"
You do not need to be right next to an Exit Gate; you have a full 12 seconds to get there, and that is assuming you are all alone. If someone is with you, they can body block for you once those 12 seconds are up.
"something you can actually work around, and try to put the survivor further away"
Not really because there is nothing stopping them from making a mad dash toward the nearest Exit Gate if they know where it is.
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2750271#Comment_2750271
"It shouldn't guarantee an escape". First: it doesn't. Even in endgame. Second: likewise, you shouldn't be guaranteed a kill just because you camp (but that is what happen without the perk).
It can very much guarantee an escape. And I never said Killers should be guaranteed a kill. Please don't put words in my mouth. Both "Survivor shouldn't be guaranteed an escape" and "Killer shouldn't be guaranteed a kill" can be valid arguments at the same time.
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2750260#Comment_2750260
You're making an issue of something that isn't... but what is a real issue, you don't see a problem with it. Losing a survivor to BT in endgame is not a problem, you already lost anyway... just accept it and move on. But the killer being able to trash half the team if a perk isn't a play is much more of a problem. (gameplay wise).
I am talking only about the issue I have with your alleged counterplay, nothing else.
"Losing a survivor to BT in endgame is not a problem, you already lost anyway... just accept it and move on."
It is very much a problem because the perk is creating a lose/lose scenario in the endgame with nothing that can be done about it. That is not good design. Just because I have only 0K or 1K does not mean that there should be something that effectively guarantees a Survivor's escape out the Gate.
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I am pointing out a big flaw in your alleged counterplay to BT, and you are responding with a comment about a scenario where BT is not in play.