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@Toystory3Monkey said:
>I want a killer that lacks in chase but makes up with it with decent map traversal and a slowdown which is actually threatening
and she literally does, im sorry you dont like survivors having counterplay against that too. she's still very much a powerful "low A" tier killer with strong power offering decent macro skill expression and unique gameplay.
if you find her too weak and unplayable, the first question you should be asking is if you really are doing the best she can or you're underperforming and survivors arent.
sadako really doesnt need to get any stronger or more consistent considering how low her skill floor is. it's okay if survivors have counterplay against macro heavy killers and you have to put effort & skill vs experienced players.
"im sorry you dont like survivors having counterplay against that too"
that is just a wonderful way to shove words down my throat, dude.
to put her any close to a tier is insane. seriously? shes on the same level as artist, wesker, plague? shes m1 and her ability is easily countered.
part of me thinks youre trolling with that "are you doing the best you can" comment. I have played thousands and thousands of matches of this killer. I know what I am talking about. -
@DeBecker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832156#Comment_3832156
Those high level squads are statistically non-existent.
They are uncommon but certainly not non-existent in my experience. All you need is a squad that is good at looping, splits up on gens, and brings good stuff (all of them do) and it's as painful as I mentioned above. Full-comp teams are very rare though.
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@jajay119 said:
if you’re facing squads like this consistently you’d be at very high MMR going at people who are equally as good as you are. So you’ve likely already won a massive amount of matches. You’re a victim of your own success and unfortunately you need to deal with it in that situation.
I get that; they are equally good as I am. I want the matches to be a test of skill. However when going against teams like that it doesn't feel like a test of skill because most if not all matches are determined by them running busted items/perks/map offerings. I know the killer can do that too but unless you are playing some very select killers then your tools will never match the strength of theirs.
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@jjthejetplane3 said:
I would say once you establish that it is indeed a SWF, change up your tactics. If you have a good looper… don't chase them. Don't take that bait. Focus on the gens and picking off the survivors working on those. Get a hit, force them to heal. If you see that they are manageable, take them out. Unfortunately, changing up tactics and playstyles as a killer is necessary without going into tunneling or camping the hooked.
But once you get the hang of the different and new tactic, switch it up a little bit and take skills from the different playstyles and apply them to the SWF. That will keep them guessing and on their toes.
Do not forget to clear your corners too. That will help with the sneaky buggers. If they are a toxic SWF, well do what you have to do. But I am speaking on the average SWF that is chill and good sports just trying to have a chill game and make some good plays. That is part of the game, the puzzle of figuring out which tactic or combination of tactics will be most useful against the current SWF you are going against.
I will say though… give the soloQ guy a break. lol. USUALLY, you can tell which one's are soloQ by how they are playing and interacting with the others.
I understand ya, but I'm referring to the teams which have no solo q teammate, no weak link, and no one who is bad in chase. It's insanely hard top pick them off the gens too when they are uber efficient; you go after one guy, he runs to a loop and you cant chase him because that's too much time, and the 3 other survivors are instantly on 3 separate gens.
I agree with you in terms of lower level SWFs though. Against those teams who are good but not insane, I actually have fun. -
@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830995#Comment_3830995
It can be fun, if you are lucky and play the killer that kinda counters this, or if their tactics are a bit lacking and you can still get a upper hand, but in general these SWFs goal is most of the time to have fun on the back of the killer and they don't care if they all die in the process.
I once played Amandas Letter Pig against four Distortion and Urban Evading Blendettes on Dead Dogs — the game was KINDA fun, because it was a big cat and mouse game and I sometimes saw the glimbs of a Blendette while crouching and I thus could slowly, slowly whittle them down, but with any other killer this would have been a miserable experience. They later claimed in the post game chat that they usually try to make killers DC with this tactic, while just hanging out and talking.
BTW, this solidified my stance on Pig needing Wallhacks while crouched as base kit :D Just be bold and brave once, BHVR, and try it out! Would make her the coolest and most fun stealth killer by a long shot.
There are thousands of multiplayer games that group could have played and yet they decide to boot up DbD and do literally nothing in order to spite the killer. No gameplay or anything. This game attracts the saddest of players, I swear.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830677#Comment_3830677
i don't agree. losing to swf does not feel unfair when a killer is capable of output skill in their gameplay. survivors do have impact perks and items but killer also have impact perks and add-on's.
the problem is that a lot of killer that have an impact are perks to slow game to counter generator efficiency of SWF. the game is suppose balanced around efficiency, not around killer brings perk to counter efficiency.
on another topic, killer perks other than game-delay have way too little impact on the match that you don't really have freedom to make builds that viable vs top. it is all balanced around soloq playing poorly which is why most of killer perks are plainly ineffective with lots of drawbacks. survivor perks used to be like this as well and to some degree, some survivor perks are not amazing but freedom is wider than past. Killer perks on other hand have barely moved needle. Anything that remotely looks ok also receives negatives changes on killer side. that is perk side of things.
the other side is killer powers. most of killers that are average or below average have many pitfalls in the killer kit where they're exploitable. as a result, there is only so much that killer skill can do on like killer like freddy or slinger or demo etc can do. fortunately bvhr is unnaturally slow at improving killers and a lot of average killers are too low in average section. than you have killer like skull merchant that have to through cycle of changes until survivor figure out when they want to play vs killer.
Yeah. I think what you are saying is that it applies to killer but not nearly as much? And I've found that that's true.
I think Nurse is the only example of it applying to killer in an obvious way.
In terms of perks you are right. There is a reason why even these SWF teams can win without running meta perks, they have the freedom to. The same cannot be said for good killer players. If you don't bring slowdown/play super strong killer, you are likely to lose despite your efforts.
"Anything that remotely looks ok also receives negatives changes on killer side. that is perk side of things."
This is so frustrating and strange. They have nerfed gen regression so killers gravitate to other perks. And yet they nerf those too. Sloppy butcher and the nerf coming to weave attunement are great examples. It makes no sense. -
@Autharia said:
Welcome to how the other 95% of survivors feel when every killer tunnels/slugs 4 at 5 gen.
Hahaha I guess. There are definitely times where this applies to killer too. If you are going against a good nurse with meta then you dont stand a chance. Some of it is due to skill but most due to the kit. Like good SWF.
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830647#Comment_3830647
Killers have been more balanced against SWF's, and good ones at that.
Solo survivor is a nightmare.I have to disagree, I feel like the number of basekit changes + perk buffs targeted towards newer players makes going against SWF miserable
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830646#Comment_3830646
because devs balance killers in-between "swfs" and "solos" you can have much more casual and fun games in between.
For me, at least, that is not the experience (as much as I want it to be) there are never really any close games anymore where everyone is on the edge of their seat seeing what will happen. It is usually me destroying the survivors because the game hands me solo potatoes/ semi decent chill SWF players or me getting annihilated by a cracked team.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
deal with it, really
it's a necessary evil which allows a lot of things in this game to be they way, including the things that favour killer players.
can you explain further ?
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830391#Comment_3830391
It proves that the killer can perform well. Consistently. I mean, you don't see anyone trying a win streak on Freddy at the moment, do you? And that would be pretty fun and impressive since he is considered to be one of, if not the weakest killer in the game.
But I digress. Someone who is considered to be high MMR (and if he could beat Team Eternal, if only once, it's pretty safe to say that he is in high MMR) should go against survivors that are pretty good at the game as well. Not every single game but in 200+ games I find it hard to believe that he only faced potatoes.
not saying he only faced potatoes, but that you can usually win as killer even against a good team if you try hard enough. you can win with trapper if you uber sweat against a good team. it doesn't really depend on the killer.
I mained sadako since launch (2.5k+ hours) and could get high win streaks even without using that strategy. its not a good Strat and was countered by good swf with communication. if you ran her for a long time (not hard as shes an m1 killer) and did tapes then you could win pretty easily. it was shown on that midwich game. -
@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830038#Comment_3830038
No TV auras and TVs stayed on. Right now her TVs are constantly turned off and if they aren’t, there is no survivor near the TV or they prerun half an hour ago in the opposite direction, because they see the Tv auras through walls.
Sure her cooldown was long, but at least I was able to use the tp effectively in chase and to get close to survivors.
you know I have to agree with this lol. the teleport itself was good (as in the action of teleporting, not the cooldown)
there is absolutely no punishment for survivors to just go to tv and remove her power. none.
the TV aura thing is so absurdly stupid too. if they wanted us to use the tvs in chase and to get the jump on survivors then why the hell is there an aura which screams "THIS IS WHERE IM GONNA COME OUT OF!"? TVs already made a sound so survivors could find them if they needed a tape, but the sound wasn't loud enough to the point where every survivor would know the coordinates of the tv you were coming out of if you were in a chase or if they were working on a gen. -
@VolantConch1719 said:
Ah yes, the Killer who:
- Was a stealth Killer with a lullaby that gave away her position
- Loudly announced her presence when leaving Demanifestation without any way of catching up afterwards
- Had absolutely zero chase power
- Had one of the most excessive cooldowns on her mobility power that had fixed locations she could move to
- Had a secondary objective that was so non-threatening that most Survivors barely touched it
- Had only one good build popularized by a YouTuber that was so mind-numbing to go against it put old Skull Merchant to shame (and believe me, I was partially on the receiving end of this playstyle BY THE PERSON WHO CREATED IT, with the screenshot for proof. The only difference was he was testing Nowhere to Hide since Knight just came out, it was still the same playstyle and probably the worst Survivor match I have ever had, before or since).
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/4L6KSA7EKIJ0/proof-jpg.jpg
Yeah, I remember how powerful she was. She was a laughing stock who had to utilize the most brainless, mind-numbing playstyle to be remotely usable. Her first rework was both much stronger and actually really unique compared to most other Killers. But Survivors refused to learn how she worked and the old players threw a fit that caused most of it to be reverted, leaving us with a Killer that is once again neither unique nor strong. I'm pretty sure the only reason I even get Condemn kills is because it's such a non-threat that people just forget to grab and return Tapes.
pretty much… it was so beyond mind numbing. you had to do a cheese strategy which only worked against bad-somewhat decent teams and was just miserable. if you played her as intended she was complete trash.
then came the global condemn version which was strong but boring too. and now there's this version which is weak but not as bad as OG sadako.
they could've gone multiple different routes to make her what she always deserved to be: a killer who wasn't good at chasing survivors but had high map mobility and a secondary objective which occurred naturally when using said map mobility. I and other sadako players gave multiple different rework ideas which accomplished this and they ignored every single one. -
@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830035#Comment_3830035
He also had a 200+ win streak on her iirc. Old Sadako was definitely not trash.
you can get a 200 winstreak with any killer mainly because most survivors are not good at the game. win streaks dont really prove that the killer is good, it just proves that the player is good. she was a mouse 1 killer with 100 sec teleport cooldown and was only somewhat decent with iridescent videotape. good players were able to easily counter that strategy.
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@Langweilig said:
I loved old Sadako. It’s so sad what she has become through the reworks. Even when playing her without condemned she was a lot better back then, the tp was so good and she was so much more fun to play as and against. Survivors have so much handholding against her now. I wished they just improved her first version! That she isn’t on the roadmap is just sad. Hopefully the invisibility bug gets fixed soon.
her tp was better back then? lol it had a 100 second cooldown im curious as to why ya think it was better
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828540#Comment_3828540
Not true. It was quite effective even against really good players. She wasn't unbeatable but more than the biggest part of the playerbase could handle.
gotta disagree: she was trash against good players, evident as when onepumpwillie went against an actual good team and got annihilated (even on midwich, a great map for her).
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828540#Comment_3828540
current sadako only works vs potatoes.
yep she was f tier then a tier now c tier lol
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828525#Comment_3828525
Youre coo coo for cocopuffs if you truly believe she was F tier with tape + drawing
tape + drawing only worked against potatoes
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sadako was an f tier killer when she came out even with that add-on
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@Autharia said:
Cause Bad killers cant 4k on hooks and cry about SWFs.
this is a great way to pinpoint a gameplay design problem on players
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yeah lets give 4 man swf groups more basekit meta perks
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'against solo q this killer just thrives'
I hate to tell you but every single killer thrives against solo because solo is terrible.
this is like putting a professional NFL player against a middle school team and arguing that we should break the NFL player's kneecaps because he was too strong against the middle school team.
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Yes. I almost guarantee they are going to make Pinhead's box completely dogshit. Why, you may ask? Well because something something solo q is terrible, and also survivors love to ######### and whine whenever they have to deal with something that makes them get off of gens for more than 5 seconds.
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@nam said:
I'm forced to practice nurse when I lose to surv perks, though I feel uncomfortable after blinking, my M2 hit rate obv higher than 90%, and I'm still tired in map control, surv can win just cuz of OP perks. I feel everything I tired to slow gen rush helps nothing, injury or hooking won't slow it down, they also heal fast for no reason, I don't dare to split hook and I'm forced to tunnel, then facing against anti-tunnel perks. Obv survs perks are stronger in both value and mechanics than killer's. I strongly doubt that all the staffs are survs only.
they do, however to do so you have to tunnel, and BHVR nerfs that ever patch, so i complain, and average killers tell me i should just get better and 8 hook against those teams.
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@TheArbiter said:
Even pinhead got his summoned chain fov fixed faster and that took months as well, very sad :(
STILL BUGGED BTW
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It's kinda weird to say that the devs balance the game around the SWF groups when they have given survivors numerous basekit buffs to counter tunneling (the main way of beating a SWF) throughout the years. Those buffs were clearly aimed towards newer/average survivors, not SWF.
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@kosaba11 said:
Until killers stop tunneling, camping and slugging, survivors need more. Those strategies need to be taken out back and shot. Bad killers should be punished for bad behavior.
no they don't, its only bad survivors begging for more, good survivors know how to counter it using the multitude of tools they've been giving. bad survivors continue whining and insist that they should be given god mode off hook and #########, and that the killer should just be 12 hooking everyone.
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@alpha5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772483#Comment_3772483
To assume weak killer are specifically targeted is absurd. They are affected like everyone else. Strong killers can and do hurt survivors a lot with these 10s which is probably why this change is proposed and reasonably so. Weaker killers aren't weak because of changes/basekit numbers like this. They need to be addressed separately and differently. You focus on weak killers in weak situations (mainly vs SWF) but fail to acknowledge how mindless this game becomes when strong killers abuse this.
no, these changes hurt weak killers more because weak killers rely on tunneling more than strong killers. its not an insane leap of logic. this will do nothing for any killer B tier and above. literally only hurts weaker killers because those killers have to tunnel
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772406#Comment_3772406
If you're going to make the discussion about killers like Freddy against a top tier SWF, that's the reverse of trying to make the discussion just about a cracked Nurse lobby dodging until they hit a group of weak survivors.
Talking about the outliers doesn't really correspond to the overall game.
except for the fact that these outliers are the main demographic that's been targeted by these changes.
nurse/blight dont GAF because they dont HAVE to tunnel against good teams. they are already strong killers. only weaker killers are hurt
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@blazeblue said:
This is funny, remember how killers told survivors that hook respawning is not a big deal and is a nice change and what not ( for killers who did bad on manging hooks properly) and try counter with the saying survivors force themselves to bleed out cause they wont let killer hook the( last survivor keep wiggling off which now that is gone so flip and boil over 100% useless perks ). Well as this is the same thing that 70 seconds means nothing and it will be forgotten about.
Well survivors didn't much enjoy getting slugged for 4 minutes so that was the solution
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@kosaba11 said:
Until killers stop tunneling, camping and slugging, survivors need more. Those strategies need to be taken out back and shot. Bad killers should be punished for bad behavior.
no they don't, its only bad survivors who beg for more anti tunnel/anti camp, good survivors know how to use the multitude of tools available to defend themselves and don't complain.
perfect example is DS, 3 sec DS was a great perk and was insanely popular in top play, however idiots who run in a straight line after using it eventually got it buffed because they complained enough.
and im guessing you just want the killer to go for 12 hook games every game? because that's reasonable
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@GigachadTrapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772406#Comment_3772406
You know at this point the devs never play killer. Do you remember when flashlight got nerfed all because of 1 dev played Hag against a really good comp team from Asia?
Yeah haha. Cote got bullied in that match. Nerf came like a week later.
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@alpha5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772395#Comment_3772395
How many is multiple though? If a second chase is already one too many then you might as well stop playing entirely or pick a better killer.
Multiple as in going around the map looking for new survivors to chase.
It's not a viable strategy and it never has been, especially with weaker killers. This is why people tunnel.
I agree with you that the game should be more chase-based, however I believe that the way to do it is to give a basekit incentive to chase multiple survivors and not just nerfing tunneling and camping.
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@GigachadTrapper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772398#Comment_3772398
You have no idea how many times I have been sent to the most survivor sided map in the game and with petrified oak offerings. The worst items they can bring are 4 toolboxes with BNP.
I don't care about their opinions. I will slug and I hope to see the devs nerfing slugging by adding inf UB basekit so I can finally delete this game and survivors can have constant handholding for their skill issues.
I may have to as well if the devs are catering towards players who unironically think that waddling around the map as Freddy to go for fresh survivors is a viable strategy against decent teams.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772354#Comment_3772354
spreading hooks is a bad strategy, which is why I mentioned that every time my swf goes against a killer doing it they lose.And if they outright camp they should lose as well. As a SWF if they camp the hook you all should be prepared with not just a Reassurance, but just to sit on your gens.
The best teams I hit when playing killer, I have to spread pressure. I have to try and snowball. If I try to tunnel they just stay on gens, FTP, bodyblock, etc.
Which is why you don't turbo camp every person you hook, you do it strategically…
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@alpha5 said:
Always funny to see how a bit of uncertainty makes killers lose their minds, how adverse to change some players generally are and how amounts of changes are put on a scale. The direction is clear: The chase is supposed to be front and center therefore this change is reasonable. An easy to pull off tactic with big rewards nerfed is a good thing. That you don't want to spread hooks between four survivors I understand but nobody said you had to spread them evenly.
The chase SHOULD be front and center but it's not. The game literally isn't balanced around going for multiple chases. Survivors will rush gens and leave. It's balanced around kills and the devs have said so.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772380#Comment_3772380
You only have to play dirty to win if you lacked the skill to beat them in the first place. Take the chance and learn from the loss. The next match will be closer, and the match after that even closer, until you will win instead.
And this is the other thing that's wrong with trying to discuss this. Blaming bad game mechanics on the player.
No, it has nothing to do with skill when I say that playing nice as Myers against the 4 man will net you a loss.
In fact if you say otherwise then that's just a self report.
I guess every time Otz camped with Trapper, it was his fault because he simply didn't have enough skill. It's not like literally everything was leaning towards the survivor's favor.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772344#Comment_3772344
But what does that have to do with this change?
If a killer is spreading hooks it doesn't matter whether the hook timer is 60 seconds or 70.
spreading hooks is a bad strategy, which is why I mentioned that every time my swf goes against a killer doing it they lose.
so what can the killer do? well they can tunnel and camp instead
except oh wait we're making that even more difficult. there is the problem
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@Nazzzak said:
Why is it a skill issue for survivors, but not a skill issue for a killer to "need to secure stages to win from time to time" by camping? I'd argue that if you need to hover around a hook then that's also a skill issue
because survivors have been given a multitude of buffs to greatly protect themselves from camping yet killer has been given nothing to buff the fact that spreading hooks is stressful and inefficient?
spreading hooks = inefficient and stressful = killers camp/tunnel instead = basekit buffs to survivors to prevent that = no buffs to spreading hooks
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772333#Comment_3772333
Not all SWFs are clock SWFs, and not all SWFs are 4-mans. IIRC from BHVR's stats, 5% of matches are 4's. I'd say minimum 50% are just goofing off with their friends. Then among the remaining half, how many are utter garbage at the game regardless of how hard they try? When you get through all the filters, I was being generous to give you 1/100 of matches being clock SWFs.
you dont need to be a clock swf in order to abuse these changes.
I play with my swf and we are not insane at survivor, but every time a killer plays "nice" and spreads hooks we always just genrush them. It's not that hard to take advantage of the fact that the killer is keeping it a 1v4 for the majority of the game.
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@nodforkiss said:
because they will never get happy and find it enough. if survivor is getting tunneled constantly, they are simply bad and lack the necessary skill .
and this is exactly why DS was buffed from 3 sec. many bad players thinking it was a bad perk because they would activate it and just run in a straight line. good players planned a spot to use it so they could reset a loop. but now its 4 seconds
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772232#Comment_3772232
Everyone is always going against predominantly soloq. Your complaints only have merit if you are sweating in scrims. Otherwise the vast majority of matches will easily be winnable, and if you want to improve, simply chase the best player of the lobby. If you want to complain about the 1/100 match that you get a clock calling SWF, then just say you want to balance around the top 1%, and the remaining 99% of people shouldn't have a voice.
SWF/ good teams are not as rare as you think they are. 1/100 is not nearly the amount of SWFs I get more like 1 in 5.
And even if it was 1/100, your argument is still "change good because players bad". That's not the proper way to balance a game.
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@Langweilig said:
This shows that anti camp and anti tunnel stuff doesn‘t get its job done.
Those things are only a small annoyance, but don‘t really hinder the killer.
1-3 are good, that we have them.
No idea what 4 even is.
5-6 I don‘t like that they removed hook grabs. They were a fun part of the game and 6 did nothing good. The AFC made only camping worse by turning most camper into proxy campers, which is stronger, turned them into tunnlers or some people leave you on the hook, because they think the AFC does anything.
The +10s on hook are very good, because it discourages it and makes it weaker. This is how I wished behavior would have done it, instead of the anti camp face mechanic.
You forgot babysitter buff
They actually hinder the killer quite alot.
Killers who need to tunnel most (freddy, trapper, Myers etc) have a nightmare going through those defenses against good teams. They give so much time to good survivors who know how to use them. Basekit BT, for example, guarantees you can get to a loop before the killer can hit you again unless you're hooked in a deadzone and the killer is camping.
What this actually shows is that there are many bad survivor players who would rather beg BHVR for another basekit feature than actually use the numerous tools given to them.
If you ever go against a 4-man, try tunneling one of them out as a mouse 1 killer, and you will see the extent to which these features handhold already good players who don't need them.
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@crogers271 said:
If BHVR had been willing to do a substantial change from the get go, piece meal actions would not have been needed. There have been lots of changes, but BHVR has been cautious requiring multiple actions.
Reassurance and kinship are perks, perks should give value. You need to give up something to take them.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3772258#Comment_3772258
Your comment that people against this change don't understand the basics of pressure is funny because if you ask any player with above 7k hours what the best strategy is against decent teams they will tell you what I am saying.Scott Jund has at least one video on the idea that tunneling is the default best/only strategy is wrong. Many people thing its the best tactic, but far from unanimous.
Also, the Asian top level meta disagrees with you as spreading pressure is a much more common tactic.
I actually agree with Scott. His point in that video is that there are situations where camping and tunneling are necessary and some times where they are not.
There are times where you should not tunnel and times where you should. You shouldn't just be following a manual which says "TUNNEL EVERYONE".
I'm saying that tunneling is the best overall/smart strategy. In fact Scott agrees with that in the video.
Tunneling and camping are tools. In my opinion they are necessary tools. However just like any tool you cannot rely on it to do everything. This is where people get my point wrong. They think I am saying you need to turbo tunnel and camp every survivor.
My point is that survivors have been given enough tools to counteract tunneling and camping, and people think that's fine because they believe that killers should just be spreading hooks rather than camping/tunneling from time to time and that's just not the case. In many games you NEED to get someone out as quickly as possible. It is the smartest thing to do (Scott agrees with me on that too). Spreading hooks is not effective enough to justify nerfing the best killer strategy. BHVR needs to stop beating tunneling/camping killers with a stick and start giving them the carrot by implementing a system which rewards them for spreading hooks.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
Given that the "anti tunnel" solutions don't really exist, and the only change in two years to buff anti tunneling is a +2 seconds to DS that they immediately walked back to +1s, you're really just complaining about anti camping features.
And the answer to: how many anti camping features are the devs going to add? It's this:
As many as it takes for killers to leave a hook and chase survivors instead of staring at furniture.
It's a lot like the 10 seconds of BT, which does literally nothing and has no impact on the game unless the killer is already at the hook, or goes back to hook within 10 seconds of the unhook (so, camping or proxy camping).
The extra 10 seconds of hook timer has no impact on the game unless the killer is hanging out near hook. Survivors always want to unhook as fast as possible, because the game is effectively a 1v3 while someone is in time out on hook. That's why immediate unhooking/hook bombing exists, is to make the game 1v4 as soon as possible and reduce the killer's pressure.
The people who are against this change either do not understand the basics of pressure in this game, or are actively trying to undermine the change because they want to watch paint dry near a hook. This is why reassurance got severely nerfed from the ptb before it even went live.
The devs have taken a pretty hard stance against camping with the removal of hook grabs, AFC, and now extra hook timer. At some point people need to go do their actual objective by chasing survivors instead of standing still.
Except for the fact that the game is built around kills and not going around the map spreading hooks?
I don't know how else to put it when I say that spreading hooks is a free loss against decent teams and it has nothing to do with skill. If you hook one guy, then go for a fresh survivor, then another, then repeat the cycle then the game will be a 1v4 for the majority of the match meaning gens will just fly.
If they want to make the game balanced around spreading hooks then they need to make spreading hooks an actual effective strategy because it just isn't. There's a reason why the best strategy in top level play is to just tunnel tunnel tunnel.
Against bad/weaker teams you can do it but it doesn't hold up against teams who don't go down in 20 seconds and are actually efficient on generators.
This is not fault of the player and anyone who says so either doesn't have enough time on the game or is just a survivor main.
Your comment that people against this change don't understand the basics of pressure is funny because if you ask any player with above 7k hours what the best strategy is against decent teams they will tell you what I am saying. Waddling around the map (especially if you are playing low tier killer) looking for fresh people will result in a loss against decent teams. It has nothing to do with how good you are.
It's a bell curve. Beginner players think that camping camping tunneling tunneling is best. Intermediate players think that going around the map for many chases is viable against good teams (because they rarely actually go against good teams) and experienced players know that getting someone out ASAP is the best strategy.
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@mizark3 said:
- Basekit BT doesn't stack with ALL other Endurance due to a foolish change, so you only get 1 Endurance proc per hook (thus negating ALL Endurance other than the first one).
- Reassurance requires 6m of distance from the hook, and often loses the Survivors more gen time since it doesn't glow on the HUD, requiring visual confirmation in soloq.
- Kinship nearly never gets value for similar reasons to #2.
- Hook Grab Removal was a laggy feature that was as bad as OG Hatch standoffs, and encouraged camping on the off chance you get lucky.
- Anti-camp meter is near never providing real value, as even Insidius Basement Bubba can merely camp the stairwell instead.
- DS still self-stuns for ~2s, meaning the '4s' stun is really only 2s being usable to the Survivor, which rarely is enough to avoid most Killer's M2. It would literally be better stunning both Killer and Survivor for 20s each, and guaranteeing the Survivor to be slugged after the stun runs out.
The idea of it being a 'skill issue' and not a 'coordination issue' is laughable. Soloq has no coordination, and is more than half of Survivors found in matches. That means regardless of skill, half of the players simply don't have the coordination to make use of the value these features can provide. Weak skilled Killers have long abused this lack of coordination, instead of gaining more skill in chase or macro. I win more than 74% of my matches before the gens even pop*, and I main Ghosty (followed by [in no particular order] Legion, Clown, Myers, Trapper, Dredge, and then more powerful Killers less often than those prior). You literally DO have the time to play correctly without camping or tunneling. Failing to learn that skill is the only reason that players using those Killers couldn't win consistently (consistently being anything above the 60% kill rate).
*Gen Defense counts the % of games where you win before the final gen pops as Killer. (Which means it doesn't include games where you win after the final gen pops.)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/Q4I8LNR4W6SJ/gendefenseupdated.png
- That's still insanely strong.
- SoloQ being bad does not mean the perk is bad, Reassurance is a top 3 perk with swf
- SoloQ being bad does not mean the perk is bad, Kinship is another amazing swf perk
- Whether it was buggy or not, its still another change which helps survivors with camping
- Maybe in that specific circumstance of being hooked in the basement by a Bubba (which is honestly the survivor's fault for going down near the basement against that killer) the anti-camp makes the killer go away from the hook a little bit, meaning saves are much easier.
- DS still obliterates M1 killers and some M2 killers still have to catch up.
I guess I can see why you're mentioning Solo Q because if you're going against potatoes all day then you DO have the time to play "correctly". I am not including bad players in this argument. Obviously Solo Q players will go down insanely quickly to mouse 1 killers but that's because Soloq players are terrible.
Please go against a good team and try to go around the map, going for many chases as a mouse 1 killer and record the results. I think you will learn something.
These changes do nothing for Soloq because solo q is and always has been trash no matter what. All they do is buff swf when they dont need it.
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@jajay119 said:
because you should be paying attention. Just like survivors should. You can see where your traps are - they can’t. If you’re waking into them then that’s on you, sorry.
Hahaha. This is not about whether or not I fall into my own traps - which I don't. I am pointing out some silly mechanic that makes a D tier killer even worse for no reason. There would be no harm in removing it.
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@Trial_By_Scythe said:
Hit the pause button as you get hooked, all sounds are dampened in the pause menu so it's not as bad.
Never thought of this! Thanks.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3755185#Comment_3755185
I mean, that's not really an argument not to add anti-tunnel perks. That's an argument to buff those killers a bit.
As for the OP I don't think DS needs a timer increase, personally.
I understand. But the hope that those killers will actually be strong enough one day to not have to worry about tunneling at all is a pipe-dream, unfortunately. As it stands now, the mountain of anti-tunnel and anti-camp equipment that has been given to the survivors only hurts the killers who need to tunnel at all. They don't really have an effect on any other killer because they're strong enough to ignore it. From what I've seen, I believe the weak killers will be weak forever. We don't need to make it any more painful for me to play Myers.