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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890308#Comment_3890308
I mean, yeah, at every point in the match, SOMEONE is going to be doing generators. That doesn't change if you target the person who was just on the hook, it only changes WHO is going to be doing generators.
If you're already in a chase with someone else when the unhook happens, though, you're doing more overall damage to gen efficiency and you don't have to eat any anti-tunnel measures. That's much better overall.
still not addressing what I said.
survivor gets unhooked. killer sees survivor get unhooked. survivor starts running towards a direction where you know a gen is nearly complete. killer has two options:
A: chase survivor so they dont just run to the gen and do it. except oh wait if the killer does that then they eat ######### due to OTR or literal godmode
B: killer chases someone else. survivor goes to gen and completes it.
none of these situations feel fun or fair, especially when you consider that the whole reason why the killer is given this lose-lose situation is simply because they did their objective of hooking survivors. it doesn't matter who's doing gens and who isn't. -
@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889677#Comment_3889677
Tell me what I should do with them when anti-slug, tunneling and camping are introduced? My games often give me such gifts. What should I do with them when the second phase goes into effect?
Well, consider what we Survivors did when 6.1.0 dropped. What did we do when MFT was nerfed? What did we do when FTP+Buckle Up was nerfed? What did we do when self-healing and Distortion was nerfed, among other things? We adapted and learned to play around it.
On the flipside, what did you Killers do when basekit BT was introduced? What did you do when the anti-FACEcamp mechanic was introduced, or the 8-regression event limit was introduced? You still found ways to play around it. And I have no doubt that you'll do the same with whatever new system they come out with.
Unless, of course, you do decide to uninstall DBD, in which case, so long, and thanks for all the hooks.
u r us vs them incarnate
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3890302#Comment_3890302
Or you could go chase someone else…?
The whole point is to encourage you NOT to be lingering around that person to try and chase them again. If anti-tunnel allows you to prioritise the person who was just unhooked, it's not functioning.
yeah, you could go chase someone else. which allows that survivor who was immune to start doing whatever they want.
survivor gets unhooked, they get OTR or in this case, godmode. killer cant chase survivor because of that. survivor is free to go to any gen they want.
the "conspicuous action = fair" argument is dumb, because it's based on a premise that the killer should not be able to interrupt the survivors with those perks before they do any gens, only after because that's when the perk disables. the perks say "if you chase me, you have to eat my off the record or godmode. if you dont, you know damn well im just going to go for a generator." not very fun or balanced. -
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3889354#Comment_3889354
Ideally, yes.
Intangible and invisible Survivor that can't use items until they progress the game, in which case they lose those previously mentioned abilities and/or if EGC triggers.
Can't be tunneled or slugged, but also can't progress the game until they choose. Fine tuning needs to be done, but it satisfies both parties. Survivors don't get a free I get to do gens 4 free or hang around for a save button
always found it odd that people think endurance/otr/DS is fair because it only disables when you touch an objective.
your suggestion of giving survivors godmode after they get unhooked is obnoxious and absurd because who cares if it only disables if they do an objective? so they can get unhooked, run to a gen and wait. if the killer tries to get them… well they cant because the survivor has godmode. so the killer goes away and the survivor does the gen.
conspicuous actions were needed, but they do not automatically make these perks fair because the perk only disables when you've actually done an objective. it doesn't disable when youre planning to do an objective. so if a survivor gets unhooked and starts running towards a gen its a lose-lose. you either try to stop them from doing it and eat whatever benefits they have from the perk, or you go away and they do the gen. -
@Nomade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3887353#Comment_3887353
Dude there is so much wrong with your response that is broken beyond repair. I honestly dont have any idea where you are even coming from with some of this and what i do understand i see as you being intentionally obtuse.
@Pit_Bull_Love You are making the very same mistake Firellius is. Slugging does NOT hard remove player agency from the survivors. You have to use the tools you have available to deal with it, yes, but that is the result of HAVING player agency not the lack of player agency. This is totally different from BHVR swooping in and bashing entire strategies to death to the point where you actually cant do them at all. Removal of player agency would be like killers asking for unbreakable to be removed from the game. Removing player agency means removing options. You still very much have options for dealing with slugging and no one, not even me would argue for their removal.
At the brass tacks, what you really want is for killers to be forced to deal with all the super OP second chances survivors get again, only without any of the tools with which to deal with them.after a day or two of leaving this thread to bake I come back and see youre still trying to argue with this person and I advise you not to.
ha I just realized ive talked to them before about this and they've done the exact same thing - just endless gaslighting.
many people in this whole thread are beyond saving, I think. they cant think outside the box at all, because the second you say something to even remotely defend tunneling youre deemed and seen as a skilless killer.
no matter how many times you tell them that the whole "spread pressure and spread hooks" strategy doesn't work against any good survivor team they will just continue to gaslight you and say things like "you just aren't good enough and haven't practiced" or "you shouldn't win every game" they never actually address the issue - spreading hooks is too weak so tunneling is rampant. if you nerf tunneling without buffing the spreading hooks play style, then that's a problem and people will complain.or, alternatively, you'll get someone who "plays killer alot and NEVER has to tunnel" and its like sure ok good for you, thanks for telling me that you never go against good teams ever in your life because no matter how godlike you are at this game if you are sent to eyrie as a b tier killer against cracked survivors and you willingly choose to play inefficiently then you will lose.
but oh well, I guess I should just take games like those up the ass after the only chance to win them is beaten further into the ground because im "not supposed to win every game" -
@smurf said:
The proposed changes don't sound like they're anti-killer at all. They sound like they're meant to make the game playable for survivors instead of letting them get tunneled out at five gens due to flawed game design. Done right, this could be a major improvement to the game.
Personally, I see most of the things listed as unlikely to change my killer gameplay at all.
if you are getting tunneled and are dead at 5 gens, that is not the killers problem.
any survivor who's good in chase and has OTR can make the infamous "5 gen tunnel" turn into a 1k for the killer. -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886977#Comment_3886977
lol im fine with losing one in ten matches because I got outplayed, the problem arises when you remove the only chance players have against those teams. then you lose the matches because you never stood a chance to begin with.
You have to deal with this one in ten matches, survivors have to deal with this every time they get camped, tunnelled or slugged. Why should we care about what is a rarity for you when it has to be balanced against a common thing for survivors?
because average survivors who suffer from it are only getting better at the game. its their choice whether they want to stick around to become that 10% that can deal with it. good survivors aren't getting any worse.
and also its a competitive game and we shouldn't be balancing around bad players even if they make up the majority. -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886973#Comment_3886973
Who said anything about 'best play'?
It just has to be 'good enough', not the best play.
can we stop the "its your own skill" BS?
No, not as long as you're trying to up-end the entire balancing of the game because you might lose one in ten matches. You said yourself that these changes are not going to impact 90% of your games, so why should anyone care that you -might- lose one in ten matches when survivors -finally- get to play the game normally?
and its not good enough against survivors who are actually good at the game.
sure, like I said you can win most matches by doing it because the average survivor is not good at the game.
lol im fine with losing one in ten matches because I got outplayed, the problem arises when you remove the only chance players have against those teams. then you lose the matches because you never stood a chance to begin with. -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886970#Comment_3886970
This is, of course, the only possible explanation, as your own gameplay is immaculate and beyond reproach.
Your skill is totes not a factor in this or anything.
of course, the classic "the card isn't bad, you just need to get better"
my fault, when I go against the 4 man who sent me to gas heaven with quadruple meta perks that activate upon hooking I can rest assured that keeping the game a 1v4 for as long as possible was definitely the best play if wanted to win.
can we stop the "its your own skill" BS? Some games are literally impossible to win without tunneling and if you can't see that then it says more about your skill than it does the person who tunneled to win. -
@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885980#Comment_3885980
And how often does all that play out just like that in the average trial? Outside maybe the top 10% of matches it's such a mixed bag or slaughter.
just because most of the players in this game are bad and the average trial is against solo q noobs doesn't mean that we should just ignore the capability of actual good teams to abuse the hell out of the broken tools we keep giving them
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886929#Comment_3886929
You yourself said the 'bad card' still netted you a 90% winrate. If you consider that 'dog****', what else is one to conclude other than you wanting a 100% winrate?
if you have played this game for more than 1k hours, you quickly realize that about 90% of survivors are bad at the game.
I could likely win those games by playing trapper with no perks, doesn't mean its a good strategy.
It's a 90% win rate not because the strategy is good, but because the vast majority of people are bad at this game. Look at SoloQ.
When you go against actual good players (the 10%) the strategy falls apart.
If the card only works against potatoes then it is not a good card. -
@Pit_Bull_Love said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886077#Comment_3886077
I completely agree with you. They should do these things for the health of the game, but I don't think it's what the devs will do. I have zero faith in the dev team at this point. Everything they have suggested in patch 1 is a nerf to survivors. By would part 2 be different? As long as they can make a few dollars off the game, they consider it a win.
So, does your lack of acknowledgement mean you won't buy me a drink? XD
can I ask you why you think they would nerf survivors when over the past 3 years they have implemented like 5 different basekit changes in order to greatly assist survivors against tunneling killers and show no intention of stopping? the last basekit killer change was 10 sec extra on gens and a 2.5% increase on breaking pallets and hitting. in return all our gen regression got nerfed and survivors got basekit borrowed time + a new meta perk, off the record.
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@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886309#Comment_3886309
Exactly, at first it was gen progress. 10 seconds are added, still a problem with gens.
Behavior compensates the change by adding more seconds to hook timer, people complain about that change.
Point period, people play how they want to play and no incentives will change the playstyle.
Behavior could allow survivors to collect parts around the map, people would still camp and tunnel to their hearts content as the playstyle would be even more buffed with less people on gens.
People just want easy games and will take the easiest route to get it, whether killer or survivor.
"10 seconds added to gens" every gen perk is nerfed and survivors are given basekit features + brand new and unbelievably strong new perks to prevent the killer from doing their objective
its funny to mention hook timer because that actually incentivizes spreading hooks even less… its literally just less pressure for hooking someone. its ironic that it hurts that play style more than it does camping.
"people play how they want to play and no incentives will change that play style" this is not exactly groundbreaking… both sides do it and will bring the most busted ######### imaginable and play in the most efficient way to win. which is why im not against a severe tunnel nerf as long as they make spreading hooks actually good, and it seems like they have no intention to do that.
"people just want easy games" is such a lazy way to put it. people tunnel because the other option, "playing nice" sucks and always has sucked as a strategy. a better way would be to say "people don't want to get 10 hooks and only get a 2k after sweating their ass off to get to that point, they want it even less when the game itself rewards the killer for kills over hooks" -
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886326#Comment_3886326
Comp games have rules in place to make the game fairer. They also are, you know, played against other comp players.
If the average Killer tried to tunnel a comp Survivor team "smartly" they'd still get obliterated.
it doesn't really matter if its played against other comp players, and im not taking average 500 hour Andys into the equation here.
the point is that you said tunneling/camping isn't effective, which is false, because if it weren't then the very best players in the world wouldn't be doing it.
in fact, its not even against other comp players do they do it. survivor meta is so busted right now to the point where if you go against a good 4 man, the things they can bring is so insanely strong that even those players must tunnel or play "dirty" -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886350#Comment_3886350
You can fix that problem by nerfing tunnelling, without aiming for a 100% winrate for killers.
Seriously, if you're begging for a 100% winrate, just play custom games against bots. Or play something else. I hear Civilisation is pretty popular.
Ok I understand now. Instead of buffing the bad card and nerfing the good card, we should just keep nerfing the good card so they're both dog #########. But its ok cuz now they're the same level and everything's fair, right?
It's very difficult to talk to you because I say one thing and you assume 10 other things. At no point did I say that killers should have a "100% win rate". -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886110#Comment_3886110
So, do you think the average killer should have access to tools that'll allow them to beat those 'ultra high level' teams? Because that's not exactly 'balanced'.
yeah i do actually :) i think the "spreading hooks" playstyle should be buffed because it takes more skill than tunneling yet for some reason is less effective.
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886333#Comment_3886333
“ok, cool? youve made the amazing connection that both perks were meta”
Nope just called out your bias
my bias of what exactly? if ruin and noed were on the same strength as dead hard i wouldnt have said that. but they never were and you have yet to address that
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886318#Comment_3886318
good so you admit that they were meta. Thats all I needed. They were meta for 5 years just like dead hard yet you made it seem like it’s only survivors that get to keep their meta perks. Dont believe me?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/DV50ACCF34D4/img-9921.jpeg
again with the ruin was bad take lol. The perk was the mosted used perk for a reason. Because it was meta you even said it. “Only good survivors” always a cheap point since there isn’t no consensus for what a good survivor even is
ok, cool? youve made the amazing connection that both perks were meta. perks have varying strengths and dead hard completely outclassed both ruin and noed x 10. if your whole argument is a "but both were meta gotcha" then i guess you win in that regard.
and yeah, when me and my swf played back then we never even bothered cleansing ruin because we just hit the skill check and did the gens. it was meta against bad to decent players. new ruin is better -
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886319#Comment_3886319
Considering that perks will likely stay the same, and we'll likely get at least one gen-related perk this year, I think it'll be fine.
Tunneling and camping usually doesn't let you beat actually good players anyways. It lets you punch down harder against people worse than you and gives you a good crutch against people closer to your skill level
it does help against good players, you need to actually know when to tunnel though. youre thinking of brainless tunneling. if it didnt help you win against good players then it wouldnt happen in nearly every competitive game
also if we get a new gen perk itll probably be nerfed within a year lol
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@Pulsar said:
Curious how even in the most oppressive meta for Killers, Overbrine Eruption, tunneling and camping was still through the roof.
Funny how players will always use the strongest, most efficient strategy that requires the least amount of effort.
lol so? im not against tunnel/camp getting nerfed as long as they make spreading hooks actually a viable strategy against good squads
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@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886135#Comment_3886135
those perks were meta perks just like dead hard and didn’t get nerfed for 5 years. You made it seem like it was only survivors that take long to have their stuff nerfed. Period.
Also ruin was “bad” yet still used almost every game. Yeah sorry don’t buy it
those perks were meta but were never on the same level of strength as dead hard, period. theyre both hex perks. noed only punished you if you didnt prepare for it and ruin was bad against people who could hit the skillcheck, it was only good against mid to decent players
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886150#Comment_3886150
yeah, you shouldn't win EVERY game, but you should have a chance.
I generally agree with this on the surface.
However, you use this statement in a way that seems to only apply to you, and somehow not the survivors you face, who you claim have a 90% loss rate. That seems like a much, much higher rate of losing matches that are already nearly or actually impossible to win in the current game.
I don't really understand what youre saying here
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@CautionaryMary said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886123#Comment_3886123
How many games are you getting this consistently back to back to back?
Unless, you're going against 4 man SWF every single time you queue up.
The same thing can be said about killers running meta perks, just like survivors run meta perks.
Killers run gen regression as it is completely difficult 4king with no gen regression unless you're a top tier S-tier killer.
Survivors run looping builds to prolong their chase to buy time
Survivors run anti-tunnel builds as a game becomes completely hard to navigate in a 1v3.
Why is it only an issue when survivors run full meta (I don't run meta), but not an issue when the same is said for killer?
Point being, people will run perks and builds because guess what? They make the game easier to play, they're inherent advantages for people to use and if a killer OR survivor wants to run meta or off-meta, it's fine.
Regardless, people like to point out gen regression and second chance perks but why is this an issue all of a sudden? Why the large uptick in slugging after the Mori introduction? hmmm methinks it's because it's easier to bypass the hook stages. Nothing to do with survivor gameplay as it would have been more popular after the 6.1.0 changes years ago.
it doesn't really matter how many games anyone gets it back to back. no game should be unwinnable and if we keep nerfing camping/tunneling AND spreading hooks then that's what's going to happen. they're not THAT rare btw, people say things like "you only get them once in 500 games" when its more like 1 in 100 or 1 in 75.
yeah, killers can run meta perks but their perks have been nerfed and as of right now the strength of survivor greatly outshines the strength of killer in terms of perks.
I think we're on the same side, youre just misunderstanding what im saying. it's not an issue when anyone runs meta perks, as both sides can do it. the issue arises when we keep beating one side with a club for trying to play efficiently while we dont do the same for the other, or dont give that one side something to make up for it. it gets even worse because, as I said above, camping and tunneling is completely necessary in some games and without it you'll just lose no matter what.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886118#Comment_3886118
It's okay, you can take an L every now and then, especially if you're already winning 90% of the time. You're doing very well with those statistics.
what does that have to do with the fact that if you nerf camping and tunneling even more then that 10% because impossible to win?
yeah, you shouldn't win EVERY game, but you should have a chance. against that 10%, camping and tunneling is your only chance. -
@iloveandhatethisgame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885881#Comment_3885881
it took them 5 years to nerf ruin noed also
those perks were never ever on the level of dead hard, in fact old ruin was bad against good teams cuz u would just hit the skill check and ignore the totem
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@piplup55 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885769#Comment_3885769
learn to apply pressure. you don't need someone on hook to apply it. bring aura reading perks and stealth perks to catch survivors off guard. avoid chases in hard looping areas. patrol gens… when killers decide to not improve or bring perks to help them in the areas they lack and just bring gen regression they start to indulge in cheesy strategies like tunneling and slugging. which makes BHVR buff killers individually so they can end chases quicker. but killer players do not change their way of playing after buffs, instead they double down on those strategies because they are now easier to do. the same would happen if they "nerf gens".
so the only thing left is punishing players trying to use those strategies.
patrol gens? catch survivors off guard and avoid chases in hard looping areas? thanks I was never doing that before, I was simply hard tunneling the first person I found for 5 minutes then losing then complaining to the forums. I only have 70 hours on this game and have no idea what im doing, thanks for teaching me how to play
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@upsideinsanity said:
Killer mains will continue to find ways around these changes and make the game more miserable for survivors.
Gen rush because "gen perks nerfed to the ground" - ok tunnel one out
Anti-tunnel perks - just start slugging
Go next epidemic - just slug more
Can't camp/slug/tunnel efficiently - __________ (we will see)
Maybe stop playing like every game is a competitive game because killers try harder so survivors have to try harder so killers have to try harder so on and so forth and here we are.
absolutely insane to try and blame killers for attempting to navigate around the bullshit, especially the go next epidemic lmao. I chased one guy as pinhead yesterday and he instantly gave up from just looking at me. guess that's my fault. survivors and killers both play equally sweaty btw, its a competitive game
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886118#Comment_3886118
I disagree entirely. It's already possible to win without doing all of that. Tunneling isn't being addressed anyways so that topic can die off in this thread.
ok, please enlighten me, as well as the best players in the world (who are also forced to tunnel/camp in situations like this, guess its a skill issue from them) how to win against a cracked-out-of-their-mind 4 man who runs quadruple meta perks on everyone and sends me to gas heaven by spreading hooks after every gen regression perk has been nerfed and im playing freddy or dredge.
rhetorical question: dont waste your time because its impossible. you are literally not winning that by playing "nice" and thinking you can win that by doing so is just delusion. -
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3886113#Comment_3886113
And? if you are winning 90% of your games, why do you need to camp, tunnel and slug? There is no reason. Play the game.
because that last 10% should be possible to win too? if you keep nerfing camping/tunneling they become impossible.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
There's nothing ANTI Killer about this. These are great changes. I never needed to rely on any of this stuff to get kills. Just don't be cheesy. Use your head a bit when you play killer.
no one is "relying", stop making assumptions. I win 90% of my games by playing "fair", but anyone who is remotely competent in this game will tell you that some games are flat out impossible without camping and or tunneling.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885769#Comment_3885769
and can we blame them?
Honestly?
Yes, we can.
Because this argument about the game being unplayable gets trotted out every single time, when killers were actually less likely to tunnel and camp back before 6.1, before killers got a bunch of basekit buffs. This proselytising isn't born from any kind of actual imbalance in the game as competent killers can win consistently without camping/tunnelling/slugging, some even doing it, for sport, without ANY killer power.
The entire game has been underpinned with these godawful strategies that are terrible for gameplay and worse for balance. They should've been gone many years ago, but the second best time is now.
then great, will make it literally impossible to beat those ultra high level teams in any way unless youre playing nurse and blight. I still cant believe we live in 2025 and people still think the killer can simply outskill those teams by walking around and spreading hooks, keeping the game a 1v4 for as long as humanly possible. truly do not understand it.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885884#Comment_3885884
…Then what exactly is your argument here?
Sometimes there are teams you can't beat without leaning on something unbalanced…? I mean, sure, fine, you can't win every match, I don't see that as a reason why the basic fundamental skills of the game are a bad strategy.
My argument is that those fundamentals only work because the majority of the playerbase is BAD, not because those strategies are GOOD.
"Sometimes there are teams you can't beat without leaning something unbalanced" yeah, because the other way of playing is so ######### bad and inefficient that you're going to lose the match if you do it. You're trying to downplay how bad spreading hooks is by ignoring that and focusing on the idea that tunneling is "unbalanced".
Yeah, you cant win every match. That's fine. But you should have a CHANCE to win every match. If you think you're going to win a match against a coordinated team using stacked meta perks and map offerings to Gas Heaven/GOJ/Springwood by walking around the map and spreading hooks then I'm sorry but I really have nothing to say to you because that's just delusional. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885877#Comment_3885877
I feel like maybe you're using the term fundamentals differently to me, because I am using that term interchangeably with spreading pressure.
I'm using it the same too. I spread hooks 90% of my games.
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@H2H said:
it’s very cool that every time killers come up with any kind of tactic or strategy or perk synergy that survivors don’t like, bhvr swoops in to nerf it out of existence
took 5 years to nerf dead hard btw
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885868#Comment_3885868
If you haven't been consistently playing that way for five years, how would you be experiencing the dip?
The dip is personal. It's while you get better at playing to the fundamentals, not until the game changes around you.
Because like I said, 90% of my games I do play to the "fundamentals". You seem to think that I hard tunnel and camp every game when I'm just saying that spreading hooks is a dogshit strategy and that tunneling is necessary in some situations.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885858#Comment_3885858
I mean, there is a default way to play the game? At least, insofar as the game obviously has a core gameplay loop.
Find, chase, down, hook, repeat. That's the core gameplay loop of killer in DBD, there's no getting around that.
I'm not saying you have to do that blindly and with no alterations, I'm saying that tunnelling is designed to cut out big chunks of that loop. No finding survivors, no dealing with two health states in chase (barring certain perks anyway), no worrying about the chase starting in a bad position, and ultimately, massively empowering that loop once you're done by being in a 1v3 early.
Again, some ways of cutting out parts of the loop are legitimate because they don't give disproportionate rewards. Info perks to make tracking survivors easier, for example, is a shortcut, and one that isn't unbalanced in the way that tunnelling is. If tunnelling were riskier, if it were more possible for survivors to last as long or longer in chase while tunnelled as they would in other circumstances so killers were more likely to lose off the back of that ostensible gamble, tunnelling wouldn't be the problem that it is right now.
As for the safeguard, it exists right now. You take the short-term dip in results, and in exchange, BHVR are far less likely to demolish your entire gameplan with a balance update. That's the safeguard.
The short term dip has existed for 5 years. Playing "as intended" is still a terrible strategy for reasons I've mentioned.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885846#Comment_3885846
I think part of the disconnect here is that you're treating the basic gameplay loop as a handicap - playing without a queen in chess, using bad cards in a card game - instead of the default.
This naturally leads tunnelling to look like its the default, instead. After all, it's expected that you'll be trying to win.
The issue here is, it glides over tunnelling being unbalanced, and it glides over tunnelling being a shortcut that bypasses a good chunk of the game. That last part isn't inherently negative, all kinds of legitimate shortcuts exist in the game, but it is true of tunnelling either way.
So, to be clear, spreading pressure isn't handicapping yourself, it's playing to the default challenge level of the game, for lack of a better term. Tunnelling is lowering that default challenge, by taking away avenues for your opponent to outplay you. You get to skip an entire health state, you get to start the chase in a favourable position because the survivor's still close to the hook, and if successful, you get to put yourself in a winning position overall very early into the match.
Play however you want. If you want to have the absolute highest chance of winning the matches you're currently playing, by all means, tunnel. My only position here is that you'd be better served in the long run not leaning on something that's currently unbalanced, because when it is inevitably balanced by a patch (looking to be sometime in the back half of this year, if the roadmap is anything to go by) you're going to start floundering.
Maybe that means, in the short term, you'll lose to teams that you'd currently consider "good". Some would argue that means you aren't at a skill level where you should beat those teams- unless you'd argue you sit at the very pinnacle of skill it's possible to achieve in this game, which seems like an unfair assumption for me to make about your position. In the long run, though, after that adjustment period, it'll safeguard your gameplay against balance changes and improve your overall skill at the game.
There is no "default" way to play the game. That's rulebook logic.
For now, spreading hooks IS the bad card. It's a bad strategy for reasons I've mentioned. Saying that its the intended or default way of playing the game doesn't change that.
If they want to actually buff the bad card, then good, please do.
But I've been waiting 5 years for that safeguard to come and it never has. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885817#Comment_3885817
I'm not trying to persuade you of anything, no. Well, except that playing the fundamentals is a sounder strategy than leaning on crutches like tunnelling, but I don't personally care if you act on that fact. Play however you want, I just bristle a little when people claim you have to do these things. Of course you don't, you can play the game perfectly well by sticking to the fundamentals.
yeah dude, I'm aware of how the game works. ya can stop speaking to me like im a 500 hour noob who hard tunnels and camps every game because waaaaaahh the game is so hard and survivor sided.
yes, people need to learn the fundamentals because those help you in all aspects of the game.
I know those fundamentals because I use them in most of my games and win nearly every time.
But if you wanna talk learning, experience, and player skill, then we can talk about the fact that a major aspect to DbD (which takes as much experience to understand as the fundamentals themselves) is that those strategies just don't work against any team that is good. If a team is ultra efficient and good in chase then you just cannot afford to handicap yourself, sorry. That's the way it is and no amount of "spreading pressure" will change that unless you're playing Nurse because spreading pressure relies on the survivors being bad. That's why it works in most games, because most survivors are bad.
It also makes me bristle when people say that killers are "bad" or "crutching" when they tunnel because they actually want to win lmao.
Imagine you're playing Chess and the MMR is set to where you'll go against bad players 90% of the time. Then someone comes up to you and is like, "you can win without a queen bro, its a fine strategy I do it all the time, you just need to be good" and you win those 90% of games without a queen. And then, out of nowhere, you go against a grandmaster who's using everything in their ability to win. You decide to use your queen because why shouldn't you? Your opponent is doing literally everything in their power to win and using every tool at their disposal. You'd be a fool to not do the same because that would basically make the match over before it starts. You win the game, then that guy comes back and is like "nah dude, you relied on the crutch that is the queen, just use the fundamentals because the queen is for noobs and is a cheese piece that's easy to use and crutch on, get better"
It's almost comical. Trying to tell players that they should purposely use the bad card in the card game (while all their opponents are using the good card) and if they wanna use the good card too then that means they're crutching. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885797#Comment_3885797
During the time you laid out, you are occupying three survivors.
The travel time counts, the healing time definitely counts, and the travel time back also counts. You don't need them to be doing literally nothing, you just need them to not be doing generators. Hell, some killers have built-in things some survivors have to be doing, like Pig's RBTs or Pinhead's Lament Configuration, which only bolsters this strategy more.
And yeah, it does rely on you getting the down somewhat quickly, so you do actually have to be good in chase and you may occasionally have to drop that chase to pressure someone else instead, but you don't have to be lightning fast. Just fast enough that there's not much time between the survivor who was on the hook getting back into the action and someone new being on the hook— because at that point, the cycle starts again and the generator repair is interrupted, again.
For the record, you use the term "looking for a survivor" in there, so I should state real quick that ideally you shouldn't be spending any time looking for a survivor, you should already know where your next chase is. Obviously that's not always achievable, but it can be pretty reliably done with the right gamesense and/or perks.
it feels like you are trying to persuade me into playing a certain way and not actually sell me on why the strategy is good.
I have lots of time on this game. I know how it ends when you play nice against good players who dont show the same mercy lol. This isn't some intervention about my own skill. Any experienced player knows that playing nice is not a good strategy because survivors just hammer gens.
again, the strategy revolves around survivors going down very quickly. that's the only case that makes up for intentionally handicapping yourself and keeping everybody alive. and good players dont do that. im not trying to be rude but I've explained that 4 times -
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885787#Comment_3885787
Well, first thing is that there haven't been any patches to introduce new perks this year yet.
Since I assume you meant 2024, the only "meta" perk in about 3 years was MFT and that was subsequently nerfed out of the meta. The last one before that was CoH.
Maybe "finesse" is what you're thinking of? Mind blowing amounts of value regardless, since I had to stretch back 3 years to come up with maybe one minor example.
hahahah youre joking right? shoulder the burden? off the record? reassurance? background player? "no meta perks" hahahahahaha.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885786#Comment_3885786
I feel like, if you're successfully employing this strategy, the survivors very much don't get to just do gens with no fear.
After all, one of them is on the hook, one of them is being chased, and one of them will have to leave their gen to get the save at least somewhat quickly.
Compare that to hovering around the hook for tunnelling- in that scenario, there's definitely more generator repair happening, because you're only really occupying two survivors at once. If you can get that done quickly enough, it breaks in your favour because a 1v3 massively favours the killer, but it's still much less efficient and conveys much less slowdown while you're doing it.
The fact of the matter is, deviations from the core gameplay loop that give better rewards for lower effort than that gameplay loop are going to get changed at some point. In my opinion, it's a lot better to learn the fundamentals, since those aren't likely to get significant changes and any balance changes that do happen won't as badly affect your ability to perform.
"one of them is on the hook, one of them being chased, and one of them has to leave the gen"
ok, im chasing the one guy. he doesn't go down in 20 seconds so that means there's still 50 seconds left on the hook timer because 70 sec hook stage. the survivor on the gen go gets the save, they both heal, since the survivor I was chasing is good and maybe the map is busted still have not gotten them yet. the strategy depends on people going down in 20 seconds.
and besides, what would be the best play in this situation? going to the hook where the hooked person + rescuer is so I can get an easy extra hook stage on the guy who got unhooked (and pressure the other survivor) or keep looking around for people so I can purposely keep them alive, allowing those two survivors to group up on that gen that one of them was working on which will be done by the time I get over there?
its just not a good strategy, im sorry.
also you dont need to be "around the hook" for tunneling. it sure helps, but is not necessary. -
@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885787#Comment_3885787
Please, enlighten me. I sadly dont know how to google something, because I am pretty old. :( So give me a list and I can look at your points and give counterpoints.
Or, you just say "It is how I say, I dont need to proof" and I assume you dont have any proof. Your choice. :)
I think I will say the latter. I'm already responding to like 3 other people who, despite disagreeing with me, are not blind and can actually see the impact of what survivors have received within the past 3 years. I don't need to go out of my way to explain it to someone who can't.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885779#Comment_3885779
Oh, please do. I still want to know. Can you also add since when you are playing this game?
been playing since Ghostface chapter, 3.5k+ hours on the game, maybe you should just google "meta survivor perks 2025" and see how many activate upon getting unhooked :)
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885774#Comment_3885774
So if it's hard either way, why not go for the option that's going to slow the generators down and that fewer people complain about?
It can't be simultaneously true that spreading pressure is too difficult and tunnelling is easier, but also tunnelling is just as difficult to pull off.
I never said that tunneling is just as difficult. Tunneling IS easier, because keeping the game a 1v4 for as long as you can literally allows full efficiency from the survivors.
The bottom line is that yeah, you can "spread pressure" and still win against most teams in this game. But it is an absolutely horrible strategy when you go against a team who is coordinated and good at looping. Walking from survivor to survivor so you can get fresh hooks just allows them to do gens with no fear knowing that the next kill you get will be 4 hooks down the line.
This has nothing to do with skill. Watch some of the best competitive players in the world play pubs; when they try to do that against a 4 man even they get destroyed because it is a bad strategy. -
@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885737#Comment_3885737
Oh, come on. You cannot really say that Survivors are that strong in 2025 or that they received Buffs. Even if things came into the game which might speed up progression (can you enlighten me what you mean? Most of them are Noobtraps), Killers got way more in the past 3 years. Even longer.
youre right, im really not gonna say that, because if I had to list every tool the survivors were granted to make the killer objective harder in the past 3 years then id have quite a long list.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885765#Comment_3885765
Well, you're certainly right about that last part.
Tunnelling is much easier. You don't have to worry about half the game's mechanics, you don't have to play tactically, you can just leverage the fact that survivors are more vulnerable immediately post-unhook and win much more consistently off chases that are twice as easy.
That's an argument for tunnelling being unbalanced, not the basic gameplay loop being a bad strategy.
that description makes it sound like a strategy where you can turn your brain off and automatically win. due to the endless amount of tools that good survivors have been given to counter tunneling, that is not the case if youre going against someone actually good in chase
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
keep nerfing tunnel/camp because we haven't been doing that every update
Continued intervention is only necessary because no matter how many carrots BHVR dangles or sticks BHVR pokes with, killers keep refusing to play nice. And, to an extent, I get it. Tunnelling, slugging etc. take little effort for the reward they net you. But that's exactly why they need to go. The easiest strategy to do should not get you consistent wins. That should come from skill and effort instead.
The thing forcing BHVR's hand here are the killers who refuse to improve and instead rely on getting one survivor out ASAP and winning the entire game through that action alone. It was cheesy in 2016, has been cheesy for 8 years, and now it's time to do away with it.
And for the record, camping and tunneling aren't necessary to win. A good chunk of us do just fine without it and always have. It's an easy and cheap way to win, sure. But with a little practice you absolutely do not need to do it.
"killers keep refusing to play nice"
and can we blame them? why would anyone want to spread hooks when that enables meta perks on every survivor and keeps the game a 1v4 for as long as possible. why would they want to do it when every perk which rewarded them for hooking has been nerfed. why would they want to do it when hook stages have been increased to 70 seconds. most importantly, why would they want to purposely slow their objective to please the other side when that other side never shows the same courtesy ? -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885756#Comment_3885756
Obviously it's harder on some killers than others, but you can do it on anyone.
You don't necessarily need chases to be that quick for it to work, since by design you're slowing down generator repair by a lot when you do it.
it does need to be that quick tho.
sure, if im playing an a tier killer its a lot more viable.
but even still, getting someone out ASAP is so much better than purposely keeping the game a 1v4 for as long as possible.
it requires more effort, its stressful, and it falls apart when all 4 survivors are great loopers. … so why should killers do it? -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885733#Comment_3885733
It's a term people use in an unhelpfully vague manner a lot, but I'd argue there's a definition of spreading pressure that's very useful and something a lot of players probably do need to practice getting better at.
I do actually agree with you that people should practice it, cuz some people automatically think "oh tunneling is the best strategy I'll just do that every game". going out of your way to "spread pressure" is a bad strategy but you only learn that after years of trying it.
but its used as a buzzword by people who want to gaslight you into thinking youre just bad at the game and that you can 8 hook as trapper if youre just good enough, which is not the case -
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
Anti gen rush is already in the game, and had existed so long people take it for granted.
There's a base kit, stacking repair penalty for survivors grouping up on gens.
that's why splitting up on gens lets you genrush even more efficiently :)