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@jesterkind said:
To answer the question about the anti-genrush, did you see the part of the roadmap where they talk about addressing survivor spawns so that they can't all spawn spread out anymore?
Even if we define genrushing as just survivors doing their objective efficiently (instead of the more reasonable and actually useful definition of bringing stacked toolboxes with supporting perks), that's gonna be a huge knock to the team's ability to get the ball rolling. With that change implemented, the average killer early game will go substantially more in their favour.
not bad but still pales in comparison to the number of tools survivor has gotten in the past 3 years
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885615#Comment_3885615
A) none of these changes were even within 6 months of this becoming a "slugging meta". The only changes anywhere close to this timing are the extra 10 seconds per hook stage (which do nothing if you go spread pressure and don't camp or tunnel), and the nerfed to WGLF healing speed. So maybe we should buff WGLF by your logic?
B) this line of thinking has never worked. They've made endless buffs to killers and nerfs to survivor that people claimed "were the reason killers camp and tunnel" and yet, strangely, every time they "fix one" the goal post moves to the next flavor of the month.
DS, DH, adrenaline, MfT, CoH, prove, BNP, reassurance ptb, gen speeds, maps, pallet strength, tile logic reworks, distortion. Every single one of those was the "reason for tunneling" at one point supposedly. Yet here we are. I think this month is woo and gen speeds again.
yearly reminder to never listen to anyone who utters the words "spread pressure"
its the equivalent of a survivor telling you to "just wait it out" with old dead hard -
I think people go overboard when it comes to slinger buff ideas. He's not so poorly weak that he needs something like 115, that would be absolutely broken.
The three frustrations with slinger come from the fact that he has no map pressure to speak of, feels clunky, and your epic shots aren't always rewarded.
His terror radius needs to be 24 meters. Having a 110 killer with a 32 radius feels so clunky and weird.
He also needs BOTH reload addons basekit, as without them the reload is sooooooo god damn slow.
Lastly, the chain needs to be more durable and survivors should have less control over their movement while they're chained. Sometimes it feels like they can move at full movement speed (not talking about bots, who actually CAN move at full movement speed while chained because its based off ping) and they drag your chain behind a wall so quickly its not fun. OR survivors should be given hindered after being let go of the chain while in deep wound. I think its dumb that you can land amazing shots on injured survivors only for it to actually benefit them because they get more distance and you get nothing if the chain breaks. -
he feels alot better to play and I like him. hes fun. ive been having success with him even against good teams.
of course, I went against a comp team last night and got obliterated but I was expecting that. hes still a m1 killer at the end of the day and his inability to win against those teams doesn't make him bad. the only killers that stand a chance against those teams is blight and nurse anyways.
I don't think he should suffer a full cooldown from faking his teleport though. That's harsh. His dream pallets are also still mostly useless because the range and detonation time is bad. -
@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3877155#Comment_3877155
All the Pinheads I go against do never or rarely use their Main Chain, but they win anyway cause SoloQ people are not smart enough OR they DC instantly. I REALLY think BHVR should check how many main chains are actually used over MMR because relying on the passive is such BS and the Killer who kills without using 50% of their Powers is badly designed, not unique.
Then that's the fault of Solo Q players being terrible. Not the fault of the killer
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@BritneyMitch said:
I think you will find most people arguing the opposite direction. Most of my community is pretty ready to start pushing to get impaling wire removed.
?? It's the only thing that makes his chains not garbage. What are your issues with it?
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3877155#Comment_3877155
This is EXACTLY how I feel about OG Sadako. Her passive slowdown when you picked up a tape. You would instantly get 1 stack and then for every 25 seconds you have held onto the tape you will get another stack. If she just had today's buff it would be perfect.
Also the devs had it right the first time. She just needed todays buffs to go with it. In the original Japanese movies, if you held onto a tape for each passing moment and day, the curse plagued you with with effects, and hallucinations/visions. It wasn't pleasant. It was horrifying.
I agree with Pinhead. His passive slowdown needs to stay. It makes him unique. I am so sad they took that feature away from Sadako. I hope they reconsider that part of her.
I was a hardcore Sadako main since her release (Over 2.5k hours on her) I've played every iteration of her so I get ya.
The tapes now are so laughably garbage. There is no consequence for taking one and therefore no choice to make. You just take it. A 1 second interaction shuts down her mobility, her condemn, and allows you to remove your condemn stupidly fast, with no downside to the survivor.
I know the global condemn sadako was cheesy and boring but I really did love the "you better not get found with a tape in your hands" aspect. It was so thematic and made survivors actually think before they grabbed one, and gave an actual sense of urgency while you were holding a tape.
I think now if you hit a survivor it should at least take the tape out of their inventory. You have to hook them to remove it which is so stupid. Like you're telling me that this one second interaction from the survivors shuts down my entire power with no consequence to them, and in order to stop them I have to chase and down them as a M1 killer, and also hook them which completely defeats the purpose of her mori power? I'm still astonished by how one-sided the tapes are. It's almost comedic that you can hold on to a CURSED ITEM for the ENTIRE GAME with absolutely no downside. Now you reminded me why I stopped playing that killer lol. -
@Emeal said:
I think it would be better if BHVR finally got around to making him less annoying; like I have had it with Pinheads who never use their main chain and just play M1 Killer with a global 5th perk for extra slowdown.
Obviously, his main chain attack should be easier to use. And hitting chains should progress towards the chain hunt, not automatically.
Only once these changes are applied, do I think we could consider what you are suggesting.
I disagree. I think an aspect of what makes Pinhead unique is his passive slowdown which just happens with no input required. It's nice.
If the killer is never using their main chain and only using the box as slowdown, then that's fine because they're probably gonna lose anyways. The box by itself is not a strong enough mechanic to win games against decent teams if you remove the other part of his power (the manual chain) -
@Devil_hit11 said:
i have seen people break the chains in like 1 second, repeatively with impaling wire. they break the chain, side-step follow-up spawn chains. pretty pointless.
thats fair, the addon doesnt change the fact that the chains are made of twigs. but ive found that more of them spawning definitely helps in chase, right now the spawning is really bad
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its a buzzword used by survivor mains to try and gaslight killers into thinking that tunneling is not necessary.
example:
"ur playing pig on badham against a 4 man? stop complaining about anti-tunnel, tunneling isnt necessary bro, if ur good then u can spread pressure" -
you gotta love how literally every single thing the killer can do to win in this game that isn't being super nice reddit wholesome chungus 8 hook before killing anybody is seen as a problem that needs an immediate solution
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@ArkInk said:
Other players have said it well. The box is fine as a mechanic, but Chains as an ability should be made more consistent. Pinhead phasing through his own chains would be an easy fix, and then maybe find a way to make chains spawn logic post hit more consistent.
Aside from that, the addon that essentially lets you tunnel offhook without contest should go.
ive been playing him alot more recently and the chains are just a joke, you can hit someone 5 times in chase with the chains and still not get a hit. they should not shatter the instant the survivor puts something in the way, it should be like a mini slinger where they break over 1 second or so. they break too fast
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@Tsanders said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3871612#Comment_3871612
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3871620#Comment_3871620
I can only assume you're playing at a level which doesn't require you to do that. But some of us do play at that level. Yes, it becomes THAT hardcore. Gens done in 5 minutes or less.
So it sounds to me like you're playing matches against coordinated survivors above your skill level. If they are getting gens done that fast you aren't doing a great job of spreading out pressure. Maybe you have played killer in such a way that has put you into a skill bracket that you aren't yet ready to handle if the only way for you to win is to leave people on the ground.
What you're seeing now is just killers adapting to the several strong unhook perks survivors have and are choosing to play around it because they want to win.
Survivors are running unhook perks because if they don't, they often get tunneled out. Survivors queue up because they want to play the game and if they are immediately tunneled out, well they aren't getting to play the game. And the killer response seems to be oh lets just leave them on the ground so I don't have to deal with perks and so I can get my 4k that I somehow earned by playing as little as possible.
sometimes i really do wonder why survivors try to twist literal facts into odd personal remarks about one's own skill
like, if someone says that slugging is the most efficient way to win, they'll get a response like yours, saying something completely off topic like "oh well if u can only win by slugging then youre just not good blah blah blah"
slugging is the most efficient way to win right now, its more efficient than hooking, and it has literally nothing to do with people's skill
also: "just spread pressure" is the new "just pressure gens" lolol -
@Massquwatt said:
If I were to guess they'll probably buff the chains themselves but in exchange neuter the box to where it's just a suggestion like pig's traps.
christ
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@joeyspeehole said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873140#Comment_3873140
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873081#Comment_3873081
My suggestion doesn't eliminate the box or the ability to slow people down. It simply reduces the lethal pursuer's access multiple times throughout the match. I understand that those who regularly use the character may have a different viewpoint.
it kinda does tho, one of pinheads main strengths is the ability to gain the edge at the start and slow gens while you chase a survivor which no other killer can do, from that point its up to the survivors to break the chain hunt cycle.
its not overpowered or anything to be able to get the box at the start, thats what makes this character unique, its the ability to shift the start of the match towards your favor if you understand how the box spawns -
@joeyspeehole said:
I don't think they would be gutting him if they made it so he can't interact with the box. If he downs someone holding the box, then it will activate; I feel like that is fair. It kind of sucks when they go and activate the box right when the match starts.
that would gut him insanely bad
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@WolfePhD said:
All I really want is to go against a Pinhead and not have the game finish before the first generator pops. I am a veteran player but I could not explain to someone what his counter-play is on a basic level. Every time I go against a Pinhead, another player tends to quit/DC/suicide before the first generator in solo-queue. At that point, I’ve already joined the fodder to go next.
I don’t think the developers should inherently change characters because they are disliked, but there is something about him that causes people to not want to play the game … and it seems more than the usual.
killers should not be changed because people refuse to learn counterplay and just give up instead
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
They don't need to do any changes to the box. His chains in chase should be slightly stronger and Original Pain should be reworked, it's literally just a tunneling addon and isn't healthy
agreed
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867823#Comment_3867823
The flaw I find with your argument is, yes, Killers have a right to win games but they don't have a right to win every game.
It's okay to lose games. If you're losing an outrageous amount then that's not fun for anyone. However, what your statement implies comes across more of a Killers should win every game and Survivors should lose an outrageous amount of games. I have no idea if that was your intention or not but that's how it comes across to me.
yes its ok to lose games, but you should lose because you misplayed, not because you were given no chance.
if we just remove tunneling, many games against coordinated teams will be made literally impossible because spreading hooks is not an efficient enough strategy to keep up with those teams. in those situations the idea that "its ok to lose" does not apply because players should be losing due to misplays and skill, not because the outcome of games are determined at the start due to the removal/severe nerf of the only chance they have, which is tunneling -
@alpha5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3868510#Comment_3868510
At least open up your profile so I can check how much you whine about genrush.
unlike the people who whine about tunneling, I dont whine about genrushing because, just like tunneling, its just each side doing their objective as fast as they can and there's nothing wrong with it
what I will whine about is the double standard and how efficiency on one side is seen as evil and unfair and toxic while the efficiency on one side is perfectly fineif you would like to test this double standard, create a post complaining about genrushing and a separate post complaining about tunneling, see which one you get more sympathy for :)
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@H2H said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867760#Comment_3867760
Why is it the killer’s responsibility that the survivor has “the opportunity to play the game”? Sure sounds like survivors want free escapes.
because when the killer goes for their objective as quickly as possible its toxic and unfair but when survivors split up on gens and make it extremely difficult to do anything depending on the killer/map/skill of the survivors then its perfectly fine hope this helps
in all seriousness the agenda of survivor mains like the one you are responding to is to make tunneling feel like an emotional attack and frame it like its "preventing survivors from playing" (which is only the case if you dont know how to loop) and then try to convince players that the absurd gen efficiency is perfectly fine. basically, if you say that efficiency on one side is bad because it "prevents people from playing" you can avoid talking about the efficiency aspect of it, because in the efficiency aspect they are wrong (tunneling efficiency vs spreading hooks efficiency, tunneling wins every time because spreading hooks is a terrible strategy but they dont wanna say that lol) of course they do the opposite when it comes to survivor efficiency though -
@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3867009#Comment_3867009
Killers have multiple tactics. Tunnel, slug, spread pressure, defend gens, create deadzone, etc. That doesn't even get into what each individual killer might be able to do.
Survivors have one thing to do. Gens. There's no real other way to open the doors. If one survivor is running the killer, what else do they have to do?
Because the other thing survivors can do are things like flashbang saves, and killers complain about that all the time.
Survivors used to set up circles of healing as something else to do, but that got nerfed.
as a survivor you can choose to split up on gens (better strategy) or group up on one gen (worse strategy)
that is the main choice the survivors can make to do their objective (they ALWAYS choose split up but I dont see any corrupt basekit) but like you said there are also flash bangs, and the only reason killers complain about that is because they cant be countered in many situations, even if you are looking at a wall.yes the killer has multiple tactics but we keep nerfing those tactics over and over again. tunnel nerfed, camping nerfed, gen defending nerfed, spreading pressure nerfed, deadzone nerfed. you even have hit and run being nerfed.
you ask people about this and they say its fine because each change was a solution to a "problem", yet when you point out that survivors are still able to split up on gens and do them in record time then they say its fine because they cant do anything else.and against a well coordinated team there is no real other way to win other than to tunnel at least a little bit, and we keep nerfing that
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its so funny, whenever killers ask for basekit features to counter gen rushing they are told that it is a skill issue, nothing is needed, and that you need to stop complaining about the survivors doing their objective because what else are they supposed to do.
compare that to when a survivor player asks for their 7th basekit meta perk to counter tunneling/camping, always met with praise because tunneling/camping is evil and if you do it youre trash… even though its the exact same thing as gen rushing. just people doing their objective.
asking for things for killer side is like jumping through hoops, while if you ask for something on survivor side its implemented within a year.
so yes, it would be great to have one small thing compared to the mountain of ######### the survivors have received to make it more and more difficult for the killer to do their objective. -
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3866977#Comment_3866977
Hooking is progressing the killers objective, there are a ton of killer perks that activate on hook, and BP incentives for sacrifices on hook. There's a literal penalty for bleeding out survivors.
what does it being progressing killer's objective have to do with it being strong or not? I can establish a 2-4 men slug, hook everyone after and still progress the match, and it seems like you have intentionally missed my point.
Regarding perks, please name me one killer hook related perk that is even remotely on the strength level close to perks like Reassurance, Deliverance, OTR and Resurgence. If you are about to say Pain Res, that perk is not even close to being as good as it itself used to be, especially after it's latest nerf which made it just not that good to run anymore.
Fire up is getting a buff soon, but I don't hear anyone claiming that "completing gens is now in the killers favor"... Because it's ridiculous.
ohh wow, a niche perk that is barely being used is going to get buffed in order to have slight increase in use and still not be worth running, definitely a perk worth mentioning!
but bro u don't understand, u dont have to deal with reassurance or all those other perks if you just dont tunnel, you see I play trapper with no perks and I never tunnel and I always win, that def doesn't mean im going against potatoes and have a warped view it just means tunneling is never necessary and if u do it you should be banned for 5 years
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@Equinox_One said:
It's…an idea.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860599#Comment_3860599
How do you deal with unhookable squads then? You know, the ones running Boil Over and similar perks who'll send you to DDS, Asylum, Ormond etc. where there are multiple spots where there is only 1 hook spawn (that can be easily sabod) or you cannot hook someone if they have BO at all, sometimes without even bodyblocking required.
It would also completely break the balance at higher levels of play.
Also - wait. Aren't you the person who defended teams hiding all game to grief and threatened to quit if it was reportable?
I think I can understand why you'd want that…ugh.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860847#Comment_3860847
Eh.
Heavy slugging because it's the only way to counter a TTV group that refuses to progress the game and just wants to meme on you forever with sabos, boil over and saves? Or because it's a hide and seek squad? 100% justified.
Heavy slugging because you just want to waste everyone's time? That probably needs a fix.
How do you fix one without the other? That's a puzzle.
I agree that slugging for no reason just to waste time is cringe and needs to be addressed. And the easy way to do it is with a simple concede feature
Many people, though, demand "fixes" for every killer strategy that isn't epic wholesome hook everyone twice before getting a kill. And that would be understandable if epic wholesome 12 hook wasn't such a terrible strategy against any survivors with two braincells. So its very funny to me when survivors can do whatever they please to get gens done at record speed but killers must be punished if they do anything that could be in their favor too. -
I love how every single thing the killer can do in this game is seen as a problem that needs an immediate solution. Survivors can do whatever they want to win and that's fine. When the Killer does the same, we need 4 more basekit meta perks.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852697#Comment_3852697
yeah, you have totally proved my point by trying to completely invalidate any gameplay aspect as a counter to specific gameplay loop because it's easier to go with the flow and believe something is broken, unfair and uncounterable purely because you can't counter it on autopilot.
Never mind the fact that tunneling is the Killer's way to win on autopilot, as it requires no skill, no perks or add-ons, or even basekit powers. Trying to call out Survivors for "wanting autopilot" while defending tunneling is just being extremely hypocritical.
tunneling is not autopilot? chase one person until they are dead and you will lose the game. not all tunneling = brainless chase you 4ever at 5 gens tunneling. and even then its a terrible strategy which no good killer uses so there's no reason to really complain
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852460#Comment_3852460
its not completely irrelevant to the discussion.
Yes it is. In a discussion about the necessity of tunnelling, and specifically talking about experimenting with tunnelling being removed for a while to see the impact on kill rates, talking about 'gens going too fast' is irrelevant, because the experiment is specifically there to prove or disprove exactly that. It's just you pre-emptively doubling down on your argument because you're worried that such an experiment would indicate that tunnelling is indeed not necessary to win.
Unless you're implying that the balancing should be done in a quid-pro-quo kind of style where, even if tunnelling is proven to be just be an excess that's been hindering balance more than helping it, it shouldn't be addressed because it might feel unfair for killers somehow?
tunneling has been made immensely difficult against good teams due to the many perks/basekit changes they benefit from which cost the killer so much time.
Again, it's not adding up, dude. If tunnelling has been made immensely difficult specifically against good teams, then why is tunnelling specifically necessary against specifically good teams?
if tunneling is still the best strategy after all of that then the conclusion is not that the perks are doing nothing, the conclusion is that the other playstyle (dividing hooks) must suck so bad that despite insanely strong anti-tunnel mechanics, tunneling remains a better strategy because again, dividing hooks is a horrible strategy at its core.
Or, alternatively: Tunnelling is just that damn broken.
just because I cant envision it doesn't mean no one else can? last time the killer got a basekit buff it was so minimal that it didn't change anything. and then they gave survivors basekit meta perks.
That's not a counter-argument.
Also, are you talking about 6.1? Because that did skyrocket the killrates.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852604#Comment_3852604
so now we are putting words in mouth even tho i never said such a thing nor pointed out to it? We never learn, do we?
That is the entirety of your argument against everything that's being said.
because of two things:
Both of which are incompatible with your earlier, boastful assertion that BHVR shares -your- point of view. Guess the devs aren't as on board with your 'tunnelling is necessary and survivors that ask for nerfs to it are just whiners' viewpoint as you claim they are, huh?
and it also means playing against tunnelers is way easier than you think is, tunneling success rate is massively inflated by people who simply can't last longer in chases and give up so easily against tunnelers.
Another wild assertion made based on absolutely nothing.
this discussion is stemming from the new perk, shoulder the burden.
its another insanely strong survivor perk which allows them to hinder the progress of the killer objective.
this comes after numerous other over the top meta perks aimed at doing the same, all completely fine under the title of "anti tunnel".since DBD is a race of who can complete their objective first, when analyzing the strength of one variable we must look at the strength of the other.
when comparing the myriad of anti-objective perks and basekit mechanics the survivors have gotten to the anti-objective perks the killer has gotten, the ones on the killer side pale in comparison.
many of them have been nerfed to either have weaker numbers or to flat out destroy itself if the killer gets an advantage. this will never happen to the survivors anti-objective because those perks are seen as the "solution" to a "problem" so nerfing them would cause many players to complain about the "problem" which is just the killer going for their objective, just as the survivors do.I do not know why you keep insisting that im covering my ass when I have no reason to. I will tell you right now, I don't care about being proved wrong to the point where I will make preemptive arguments to fall back on. you have yet to address what ive actually said in that statement of survivor objective vs killer objective.
"if tunneling has been made immensely difficult against those teams then why is it still necessary against those teams"
ok, ive said it like 3 time but ill do it again.
tunneling still remains the best strategy against those teams because the alternative, which is dividing hooks, is still such a bad strategy that tunneling remains the better one, despite the tools survivors have to make it so difficult. one of your points is that dividing hooks is not a bad strategy but you contradict that by asking a question like this. imagine having two pieces in a board game and one of them has been strong since the beginning and one of them has been weak since the beginning. now imagine if we significantly nerf the strong piece to the point where using it is very difficult, however we keep the weak piece the same. if players are still using the nerfed piece then what does that say about the other piece? it says that the other piece must suck.
"tunneling is just damn broken"
tunneling is not the insta-win brainless strategy you think it is. if you try to blindly tunnel someone until they are dead then you will lose. strategic tunneling exists, and it does not involve chasing one person until they are dead. it still requires game sense, chase skill, and can be countered.
its not a wild assertion to say that you think countering tunneling is much harder than it is. you have suggested that the very strong meta perks the survivors have received to counter it dont really do anything (saying 3 sec DS was useless) + have said that basekit features such as the anti-camp dont really do anything. you have also said that tunneling is broken, implying that it is an overpowered and uncountable strategy when its not. its much easier to complain about tunneling and ask bhvr for more anti-tunnel mechanics than it is to actually get better in chase and use the countless tools you've already been given. even easier due to the huuuuge anti-tunnel bandwagon which any low-skill player can hop on. -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852432#Comment_3852432
it is me pointing out the hypocrisy between survivor efficiency and killer efficiency. but sure, call it whatever you want. still have not addressed what I actually said in that sentence
That is completely irrelevant to the discussion though, isn't it? So why bring that up and try to label it as a 'benefit of the doubt' thing?
if you think that the myriad of insanely strong anti-tunnel and anti-camp mechanics/perks is not enough then I really do not know what to tell you. good loopers who run these perks make it almost impossible to tunnel them unless you want to lose. but I guess that is not enough and we need more.
Evidently this 'myriad' of 'insanely strong anti-tunnel and anti-camp' is doing jack to actually reel in these tactics if they're still flatly the level best thing a killer can do. And if they were this 'insanely strong', then why the uproar over another one being added to the pile?
You'd expect tunnelling to be dead in the water with a 'myriad of insanely strong anti-tunnel mechanics/perks', but somehow everyone's convinced that it's the only thing propping up the killer winrate.
Something isn't adding up here.
simple number changes will not magically allow every killer to divide hooks and still win against good teams… and these simple number changes would still require a great amount of testing + community feedback + time.
Just because -you- can't envision it, doesn't mean no one else can.
its not completely irrelevant to the discussion. the balance of dbd is about which side can complete their objective faster than the other. that is it. when you are only addressing how fast one side can do their objective (killer) and not the other then therein lies a problem. survivors can be as efficient as they want but when the killer does it, its a problem that calls for basekit changes as well as perks that are so over the top that their effects pale in comparison to any efficiency slowdown the killer could run.
the perks are not doing nothing. tunneling has been made immensely difficult against good teams due to the many perks/basekit changes they benefit from which cost the killer so much time. if tunneling is still the best strategy after all of that then the conclusion is not that the perks are doing nothing, the conclusion is that the other playstyle (dividing hooks) must suck so bad that despite insanely strong anti-tunnel mechanics, tunneling remains a better strategy because again, dividing hooks is a horrible strategy at its core.
just because I cant envision it doesn't mean no one else can? last time the killer got a basekit buff it was so minimal that it didn't change anything. and then they gave survivors basekit meta perks. -
@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852404#Comment_3852404
why the hell should killers bend over backwards to appease survivors by playing in a more "fun" way?
Because it's just a game, and it's supposed to be fun for both sides? And I've already explained how tunneling is bad, not just for Survivors' fun, but it also ruins the Killers' fun down the road. I haven't seen you counter that argument.
never in my 3.5k hours have I ever seen a survivor intentionally play worse to benefit the killer. they dont do gens slowly because its more fun and I dont see anyone calling them bad for doing that and saying how that's a "problem".
You mean you've never seen Survivors give up? I don't know where you've been if you haven't had Survivors playing the way half of my teammates do.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to win all the time, but all of us need to get better at accepting the fact that we're not going to win every game. People tunnel because they just can't accept that fact.
im glad we can agree that dividing hooks is so bad to the point where its the killer equivalent of giving up on the survivor side
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852413#Comment_3852413
lmao how is that covering my own behind?
Because it's a back-up argument in case tunnelling is proven to indeed NOT be necessary to win.
and dude, im sorry but the hope that every killer will be viable if tunneling is removed due to buffs is nothing short of a pipedream… we've been nerfing tunneling and camping nearly every update and the weak killers have still not moved in terms of strength.
In the near decade that DBD has been in operation, the nerfs given to camping and tunnelling are the removal of hook grabs, 10 second haste and endurance, and the most timid anti-facecamp ever. Contrarywise, BHVR has been so delicate with the matter that even getting 5 sec DS back didn't last. These tactics have never been adequately addressed, BHVR continues to pussyfoot around it.
yeah, would be awesome if bhvr would make dividing hooks more effective than tunneling then make weaker killers better to compensate but that is never going to happen. if they "removed" tunneling, they're not gonna go to each and every weak killer and give them (MAJOR) buffs to compensate. that is a pipedream which would require a gargantuan amount of time, effort, testing, and community feedback for EACH KILLER. its not going to happen.
They don't need to. I've made suggestions for killer buffs that would work, but only IF camping/tunnelling are properly addressed. And these were nothing more than simple number shifts for a subtle but impactful effect.
To claim that they need to go through every individual killer to manually adjust all of them is overcomplicating the issue. We already saw that they can just buff killers wholesale, since that's what they did in 6.1.
im at a loss for words, its not a backup argument lmao. it is me pointing out the hypocrisy between survivor efficiency and killer efficiency. but sure, call it whatever you want. still have not addressed what I actually said in that sentence
if you think that the myriad of insanely strong anti-tunnel and anti-camp mechanics/perks is not enough then I really do not know what to tell you. good loopers who run these perks make it almost impossible to tunnel them unless you want to lose. but I guess that is not enough and we need more.
simple number changes will not magically allow every killer to divide hooks and still win against good teams… and these simple number changes would still require a great amount of testing + community feedback + time. -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852404#Comment_3852404
also to give you the benefit of the doubt: even if it IS a good strategy (with tunneling still being a better one) why the hell should killers bend over backwards to appease survivors by playing in a more "fun" way? never in my 3.5k hours have I ever seen a survivor intentionally play worse to benefit the killer. they dont do gens slowly because its more fun and I dont see anyone calling them bad for doing that and saying how that's a "problem".
That's not 'benefit of the doubt', that's covering your own behind.
But ultimately, it makes no difference. With tunnelling in play, both sides are dissatisfied. Those who vehemently defend tunnelling also seem to be frustrated with how 'weak' killers truly are, and how hopeless any game against decent survivors is, so if tunnelling were to be removed, IF you were to be right about the necessity of tunnelling, BHVR would have to actually buff killers in a meaningful way to bring the balance back up.
If tunnelling being busted is the only thing that is keeping up this facade of balance, then ripping off the veil should get you guys what you want too, and survivors can finally get that lifelong issue out of the way.
Sound good?
lmao how is that covering my own behind? its a statement to prove the double-standard between survivor efficiency and killer efficiency…even if going for divided hooks IS a good strategy, why should killers do it? we dont ask survivors to play worse just to appease us. but nah, you didn't address that part at all. guess the only thing that can be derived from that is me simply covering my behind lol.
and dude, im sorry but the hope that every killer will be viable if tunneling is removed due to buffs is nothing short of a pipedream… we've been nerfing tunneling and camping nearly every update and the weak killers have still not moved in terms of strength.
yeah, would be awesome if bhvr would make dividing hooks more effective than tunneling then make weaker killers better to compensate but that is never going to happen. if they "removed" tunneling, they're not gonna go to each and every weak killer and give them (MAJOR) buffs to compensate. that is a pipedream which would require a gargantuan amount of time, effort, testing, and community feedback for EACH KILLER. its not going to happen. -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852126#Comment_3852126
How about we test that for once?
@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852195#Comment_3852195
And then, if you were to somehow provide video evidence of consistent Killer wins without tunneling, the response would be, "Oh, Survivors just played badly." And then nothing is proven… 😕
yeah test it, find a good swf that's brining good perks +items while ur playing a killer below a tier and see how that goes. and yes, if youre winning because the survivors are going down in 20 seconds each then the survivors are bad. not that difficult to understand that its not a good strategy
also to give you the benefit of the doubt: even if it IS a good strategy (with tunneling still being a better one) why the hell should killers bend over backwards to appease survivors by playing in a more "fun" way? never in my 3.5k hours have I ever seen a survivor intentionally play worse to benefit the killer. they dont do gens slowly because its more fun and I dont see anyone calling them bad for doing that and saying how that's a "problem". -
@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852126#Comment_3852126
Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for Killers), not many teams have more than four braincells.
You could argue that tunneling is a valid strategy, and I'm not going to argue against that. But I would argue that while tunneling is valid, it's not good.
- It inflates a Killer player's kill rates, pushing their MMR up to a level they're not comfortable with, causing more stressful games as they try to compete with the tougher Survivor teams.
- It inflates killrates well beyond the 60% that the devs are aiming for, which leads to Killer power and/or perk nerfs.
But I know it's pointless to tell people to stop tunneling, because they won't, even if all Survivors were exposed and their auras visible at all times from the start of the match. They want their 100% kills and wins no matter what.
not many teams have more than 4 braincells but a good amount do… so if i go against those teams and tunneling is made near impossible I guess ill just take it up the ass then
"they want their wins no matter what"
yeah its a competitive game -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851967#Comment_3851967
so what does the fact that conditions 1 and 3 aren't specific to tunneling, but are core to countering have "not" to do with it?
Because it essentially turns your advice into 'just win, 4head', and not an actual counter.
And condition 2 is literally 100% true, hooked survivor is basically at the state where they can't be hunted for the whole duration of one hook state.
Except it also leaves them incapacitated, which means they're exactly as useful as them already being dead, and it opens the door for the killer to snowball a ton of extra pressure on top. It is not in survivors' best interest to leave someone on the hook, unless the killer is camping.
how difficult is it to understand that this perk doesn't only work against tunneling? And how many times do people have to repeat themselves with explaining?
That doesn't matter! The one thing is denies is the one thing that gives tunnelling -all- of its value. It having value outside of a tunnelling killer is not the point of this argument. The point is that the incredible value you ascribe to this perk to deny an early kill is the exact same value that tunnelling provides. Shoulder the burden and tunnelling both operate off the same value.
hooking and killing is the only way killer wins too, so?
That's not an argument.
ahh yeah, slaughtered because casual players can no longer have fun while getting free value of it while not having to think about where they will be downed, right?
Its activation is entirely in the hands of the killer. If you get hit with it, you deserve to take punishment. It's not 'free value', since it costs a hook state and requires the killer to sign a consent form in triplicate to get hit with the stun.
i don't care what your "forum killers" think, i am here for the same reason i am on forums for basically any PvP game i played, proper game balance that isn't about making it "fun" for casuals by making broken stuff.
Then maybe encourage BHVR to deal with the broken thing that's plagued the game since its inception, instead of ONLY caring about what survivors get to fix it.
we could literally get as many ppl in dbd community to test which side gives up more times, even myself, and there are basically 7-8 games where survivor(s) give up on top of one game where killer gives up.
Besides, memeing killers are vast minority, let's not pretend they are some kind of majority.
Additionally, let's not put MMR into this story since it's as good as nonexistent. If you constantly keep improving, skill gap between you and average opponents at soft cap is so high that you will consistently get great individual results on both sides.
Again, you're arguing back against one or two things while not having anything to answer against any of the rest, and once again, I must remind you: ######### stats are still more than no stats.
i am literally winning most of my matches as both sides and it's literally mostly because my opponents make grave mistakes, especially when i play killer. Average killer complaining about genrushing usually doesn't even know importance of things as Corrupt Intervention in build and being aware of importance of the first chase.
Oh, you mean the killrates are deflated?
core problem is…KILLERS LOSING? Core problem is literally lack of proper incentive to hook/spread hooks (+10s hook timers, hook grabs removed, hook related perks on killer side getting nerfed constantly so many hook related meta perks on survivor side, sabo buffed), which results in uprising of unhealthy strategies like tunneling and slugging. And you are here basically acting as if we should first give hand to people who…simply refuse to find a workaround against anything in this game, while killers usually find workarounds after every drastic balance change.
You did not read what I wrote about the whole 'kicking the can down the road' thing, did you?
Killers AREN'T a stronger role, that's a fake bubble created by terrible matchmaking that was guess what, literally induced by community that would literally never want it to improve because they don't want longer queue times.
Literally everything suggests they are.
do you know that in comp tournaments, there are very heavy restrictions on survivors against M1 killers?
Did you know that there was a comp tournament with no restrictions that showed the roles as neatly balanced?
With that in mind, are you aware that their experiment has NOTHING TO DO with balance between killers and survivors, it literally points out how flawed MMR system is and how low soft MMR cap is because average survivor is so bad that they can get obliterated even by a completely powerless killer.
And you think that this is okay, and even that it should be significantly worse than what it is. Top MMR 4-man SWF hitting 50% escape rate needs to get nerfed, with no regard for what this will do to the other 90% of the game. This is just not going to work. It's going to nerf survivors out of the game outright.
And if you want to use this as your argument for "omg so if you are having difficult time as killer, that's a skill issue", mind you, Hens and his friends are top 0.01% of dbd playerbase in terms of skill, knowing almost every single macro aspect of this game.
Okay, and? Weren't you the one that said we shouldn't balance to the casuals?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852003#Comment_3852003
Again, the perk requires the killer's consent to work. It's not supposed to be balanced when it does fire because the killer did something wrong to make it fire.
The opinion that DS is in any way powerful stems from people who lack the self-restraint to not set it off.
everything you are saying assumes that the killer should be dividing hooks which is a terrible strategy against any team with more than 4 braincells
-
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851785#Comment_3851785
"broken tactic" that has 3 conditions in order to be successful:
Except conditions 1 and 3 are general gameplay conditions that aren't specific to tunnelling, and condition 2 isn't even true at all.
Additionally, you can also be on death hook if killer doesn't tunnel you and this perk will have tremendous impact, meaning "tunneling" argument falls into the water.
You can't undervalue the impact of tunnelling while simultaneously trying to gas up this perk for its ability to deny an early kill. They are two sides of the exact same coin.
The more you argue that StB is broken, the more you argue that tunnelling is just as broken. They are inextricably linked together.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851790#Comment_3851790
gen soeeds are still the main problem, slowdowns are unnecessarily nerfed in an attempt to make meta shift while failing miserably because slowdowns will be the most effective thing even at their worst because guess what, gen speeds.
Gen speeds will always be marked as the problem because ultimately, that's the one and only way by which survivors win. Whether matches take 3 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, the moment the last survivor walks out the exit gate and seals the loss for the killer, it is because the gens got done faster than the killer could keep up with.
That is the nature of the game. It is not an argument in and of itself. For that, you'd need to look at balancing statistics, and those aren't in favour of your argument.
let me correct this for you. DS didn't get slaughtered, it actually received an additional condition to be used
A perk that requires the killer to follow a multi-step program in order to activate, lost over half of its actual power. That is a slaughtering. It's very telling that this is one of the very, very few things that BHVR has ever gone back on, even if only slightly.
The idea that DS should require more skill from the survivor is a laughable one when it is the single most avoidable perk in the entire game. But hey, when it went down to 3 seconds, it didn't matter that you did everything wrong as killer to make this perk work, you wouldn't get punished for it anyway since you could just tunnel straight through it. It was a total waste of a perk slot.
The fact that average player is bad and can't use specific meta perk doesn't mean perk shouldn't be touched at all. It's in fact the worst argument for not touching the perk.
That is quite rich coming from someone who has long advocated for the game to be balanced around a handful of forum killers that insist that the role that is statistically the strongest, that BHVR balances to make the strongest, and that constantly puts out massive win streaks, is actually staggeringly underpowered.
Killrates are massively inflated by factors completely unrelated to actual balance.
This 'massive inflation' is overestimated.
Firstly because of the assumption that every hook suicide or D/C has some meaningful impact on the kill/winrate, when in reality, a good number of them would've been 4Ks either way.
And secondly because people like to forget that some of these issues swing both ways. AFK killers, mercy killers, bad killers, bad matchmaking, all of those factors will swing the rates down again.
Then there's also the argument that as you go up in MMR, where these issues should be less likely to be a problem, the kill rate actually goes -up-, not down.
But even if you were to dismiss all of that to try and devalue the impact of these statistics, you still run headfirst into another brick wall: This is at least -something-, whereas the forum killer has -nothing-. It has always been based purely on a personal perspective that was generated in a closed box that no one has any insight into.
And that is supposed to be in charge of balance.
M1 killers against any somewhat decent survivors stand no chance if they don't manage to tunnel one survivor out early lol. Again, let's not use "high killrates on weak killers" as an argument since we know skill level of average survivor.
But the skill level of the average killer must never be questioned, of course. Only the skill level of the survivor is up for discussion and derision, and only survivors shall be dismissed for their perceived lack of skill.
It is exactly this lack of self-awareness, self-observation, self-critique, that creates the forum killer.
Forum killers are perfect players that never make mistakes.
Killer wins = Survivors bad. Survivors win = Killer UP. There is no way to break through this.
how about we actually fix the core problem that stands behind tunneling instead of throwing bandaids that literally just make it even worse for more than half of the killer roster? Why don't we think about lack of hooking/hook spreading incentive?
The 'core problem' you perceive is killers losing. We're not going to 'fix' that.
And the problem with a carrot approach is that killers are already the stronger role. If you want the incentive to work, you'd need to offer something that is more powerful, easier to pull off, more consistent, than tunnelling. It would have to be more oppressive than tunnelling.
That doesn't fix the issue. That just kicks the can down the road.
Get rid of tunnelling first, and IF a rebalance is required, it can always be done after.
to actually prove it, go and play an M1 killer against a decent survivor team and see for yourself :)
Again, Hens and four of his friends. 90% 3K+ rate over a hundred matches and they didn't just refrain from tunnelling, camping and slugging…
They didn't use ANY killer powers. Worse than an M1 killer.
not gonna read the rest of this but your view on 3 sec decisive is another example of people thinking perks are bad because they dont know how to use them
3 sec DS was still an amazing perk, you just couldn't use it in the open anymore. you had to set yourself up in a loop and if you used it there then you would literally reset the entire loop and begin the chase from the start. if you were tunneling as killer and a survivor who was good at looping did that to you, it was very detrimential.
the opinion that 3 sec ds was useless stems from people who had no idea how to use it. and now its 4 sec instead of 3 because people suck and use tunneling as an excuse to have any braindead ######### in the game . -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851735#Comment_3851735
Perk that properly addresses broken tactic with terrible gameplay impact that's been haunting the game for nearly a decade and made balancing a distant dream, and I'm supposed to think it's a bad thing?
yeah the broken tactic that's been haunting the game its just that simple. killers just tunnel because they are bad, I am sure there is absolutely no other reason that they do that. could it be that they've nerfed every single gen regression perk ever? nah. could it be that they made hook stages 70 sec so that's even less incentive to play nice? nah. could it be that lots of maps are still too big and loaded with pallet to pallet every 5 meters? nah. could it be that the "playing nice" strategy which is always seen as the healthy way to play (opposed to the rotten way to play which is tunneling) completely relies on survivors sucking at chase and going down in 20 seconds? of course not
-
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851733#Comment_3851733
People have been suggesting that for OTR as a way to fix the bodyblocking issue.
But if the upset about StB has taught me anything, it's that tunnelling is well and truly broken as all get-out.
a perk that forces you to perform the shittiest strategy in the entire game is seen as healthy because potatoes think that strategy is actually viable. welcome to dbd2024
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851712#Comment_3851712
- encourages camping;
- encourages slugging;
- spits on any playstyle that that isn't just going for fresh hooking everyone first before taking anyone else to another hook state;
- spits on most killers;
- has no activation condition for how powerful effect it has, Exposed duration is lowkey no downside at all since it will just expire by the time you manage to even get hit by the killer if you are at least a bit decent in chases
surely a "good and healthy" perk design, especially at the times where spreading hooks and hooking as a whole is at the worst state it has ever been in. It has literally even been banned in comp tournaments instantly as soon as it was released without hesitation.
And ofc it will be considered "useless" same as Reassurance and Deli purely because majority of playerbase has 0 knowledge of how to use it properly and they will usually StB right in the killer's face.
bhvr could put a perk in the game that gave godmode + no clip after being unhooked (disables after conspicuous action so its fair guys!!!!) and people would still say its "healthy" for the game because caveman mentality tunnel = op insane problematic strategy needs to be punished!!!!!
and we cant forget the "but youre not playing in comp and the survivors aren't comp level either" like it takes comp-level skills to split up on gens and be insane in chase -
I like how everyone looks at tunneling, camping, and slugging as problems that need "solutions". You nerf those strategies and guess what, the game becomes even sweatier.
People need to start asking themselves WHY the killer feels the need to do those strategies, and I will tell you right now that its not as simple as "they're just bad".
-
@YayC said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/431782/sadako-sucks
I disagree that Sadako is better than release (which I'm assuming you're referring to as 1.0).
Sadako is objectively in the weakest state she has ever been in (for live builds if we aren't counting the state she was in for 2 weeks at the start of this version where her power was on a 15 second cooldown).
1.0 Iri tape facilitated you to be able to play full condemn which could get you multi-hundred win streaks as showcased by OnePump and facilitated no condemn builds because your TV's were in your control and thus you could consistently use them for builds like make your choice.
2.0 Sadako (tape breaking) Sadako had counterplay to survivors stealing her power (exactly how it should be).
Current Sadako it doesn't matter if you are the greatest Sadako player in the world, your power is held hostage by the survivors with 0 downside and there is LITERALLY nothing you can do about it. I say this as someone who has won every single match vs her when I play with my friend.
The problem is people play 1 game as her, spam TP again survivors who don't know what they are doing, get a 4k then say she's insane. In reality the second you play vs 2-3 people who understand your power and actually play against it properly like most survivors do for every other killer in the game, she literally has no power.
yes, I agree with you actually . she was mostly worse but had some nuclear options in there that could help you out. taking tapes wasn't a braindead decision and iri tape gave her great mobility. and survivors couldn't see the ######### auras of tvs like what the ######### lmao!!!!!
-
@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3835842#Comment_3835842
then it's evidently a skill issue, no offense.
sadako struggles hard only against comp level swfs as shown by multiple showcases by various CCs like hens and even so she makes them SWEAT to get a win because any mistake is punished hard.
anything below is perfectly crackable as long as you're good enough with the killer.
lololol, gonna stop responding to you now because its clear you have absolutely no intention of addressing my posts claims and just wish to say "skill issue" in different ways each time you respond. hope your life gets better dude
-
@Vishlumbra said:
Hello! sadako main too. I do empathize with some of your comments, yet I do not find her as weak as people suggest she is. I’m pretty sure I am almost at max MMR with her because every match is hard and I get a bunch of p100 survivors that loop like gods and bring over everything to destroy me. I do believe she needs some love and I made a post with a few suggestions, I’ll post them here so I can get some feedback.
1- One of the main issues with Sadako is the perks she needs to run to perform against a good team. The thing is, you kinda have to forget about any aura reading perks or location perks so you can have enough slowdown or chase potential to actually have a fighting chance. My first suggestion would be: Make survivors carrying a tape scream and reveal their aura for 3 seconds every 15 seconds or so.
2- Make survivors hindered by 2-4-6% depending the amount of condemnation they have.3- At full stacks of condemn, injure the survivor, then he needs to deliver the tape, heal or risk being downed. It would grant condemn a bit more of risk.
4- For every 3-6-7 stacks of condemn, a pallet is locked. Like 1 pallet for 3, 2 pallets for 6 and 3 pallets for full condemn.
5- Survivors carrying a tape that are healed, share a condemn stack, or basically, if a bunch of survivors are grouped for 10-15 or whatever, and they have any amount of condemn, they spread a stack.
Idk, I am just thinking, I am not suggesting implementing all of these.
I dont know why they never implemented debuffs for the amount of condemn you have. It would be so much healthier. Right now you either have 7 stacks and are killable or you are not, and everything is balanced around that. It's binary and boring. Having debuts based on the amount you have then nerfing the spam condemn strategy would make the killer 10x more healthy.
-
@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3835013#Comment_3835013
good point, yes
if we compare killers exclusively vs strawman "good teams" then we should abandon the concept of tiers altogether. we will have nurse, blight, billy and everyone else.
like, be ######### real, there are NO killers except blight-nurse-billy who stand a chance against the strawman competitive meta running map offering SWF that is playing seriously. that's just how the game works, boo-hoo, deal with it. Teams like that dont care if you're playing doctor, xenomorph or whatever other trash, they're efficient enough to boil the game down to 2-3 chases (or slightly more if you have 4 slowdowns that trigger off fresh hooks, in which case you'll have a person dead on hook MAYBE + freshes on everyone else assuming they give you that) and then escape giving you a single kill at most. Good news is that people who yap about tiers more than anything else usually lack skill to compete with such teams ANYWAY.
mentioning strawman then saying "competitive meta SWF running map offerings" is crazy dude. u really need to stop shoving words down my throat, im getting full.
it did not take a team of that caliber to beat that strategy. -
@katoptris said:
Don't forget that there like a condemn auras radius for survivors to realize they can be condemn. Like why do they need to know when they can just grab the tape....
because they were super overkill to make sure survivors never complained again
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834943#Comment_3834943
Disagree. Mained her. Perfromed well without slugging, ring drawing or iri tape.
I mained her too and performed well but that's because of my own skills as a killer; not sadako's kit. I beat teams that were really good but when I did I never thought "I won because her power is amazing and clutched me the game" I could've beat the same teams if I were playing trapper/myers/freddy.
she had crappy stealth (still does lol) her condemn was horrible, and her tvs had 100 second cooldown. she was put in d tier by otz when she was in that state for a good reason -
@radiantHero23 said:
She wasnt d-tier when she came out and shes certainly not d-tier now.
She does indeed need some tweaking, but overall, shes in a decent spot.
she was d-tier, and the only reason people think she wasn't was because she had a cheese strategy which worked extremely well against unorganized survivors but fell apart against good teams.
-
@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834861#Comment_3834861
im not gaslighting you, im asking you a genuine question you seem to be avoiding with immense effort which makes me think my initial assumption was very much correct.
if you get looped for minutes on this killer and, judging by this response, you are, then i suspect you're overcommitting too much in chases. that's not a smart idea, you're supposed to play hit&run with her and utilize your strong sides - mobility and stealth, force survivors to rotate around the map and catch them out of position.
her power requires constant attention to shut down and that one way or the other grants you value. it's just a matter of how you use it.
it might be a good idea to watch strong onryo players and what decisions they make throughout the match. Onryo is a killer whose power requires high skill and game sense to use which most players in this game don't develop because they focus too much on mechanical skill and chase aspects of the game.
Her power gives her a lot opportunities and possible moves she could take throughout the match, however they aren't obvious. It's unsurprising that even after playing her for years you still might not be able to make correct decision in the match all the time and that often loses you games.
no one mentioned getting looped for minutes? I have no idea why you are making so many assumptions out of thin air.
but please, tell me how none of my thousands of hours on this killer matter and how im just not good enough and should watch some YouTube videos.
"youre supposed to hit and run with her and utilize her strong sides, mobility and stealth, force survivors to rotate around the map"
yeah, you mean the amazing stealth that has a lullaby and great traversal that can be switched off by survivors? ur not condemning ######### if survivors just go to gens and turn off the tvs right next to them, which is what they do.
"her power requires great attention to shut down and gives you value no matter how you use it"
ok, yea, when a survivor goes on a gen and takes 1 second to take a tape out of the tv next to it without thinking at all then that is clearly great attention. and then that tv is shut down for 70sec, and that survivor has a tape that does nothing for me. major value right there.
you really haven't said anything substantial besides saying that her power is strong and that im just not skilled enough I guess lmao. -
@TotemsCleanser said:
I frankly do not know why survivors do not gain passive condemned from carrying a tape anymore. The fact that they can retrieve them with pretty much no consequences is absurd.
the fact that you have to hook them to remove the item that they can get for free (whilst shutting off your TP) and carry around for free is what makes this whole system so flawed. if someone has a tape then there is no point in teleporting near them to build condemn because they're just gonna remove it unless youre right next to them and they're injured so who cares. and the only way to get rid of it is to hook them. and oh wait since you hooked them what's the point of condemn anymore.
survivor pick up tape (shutting down TV). killer try to condemn them? not possible, they will remove it easily since they have a tape they can carry around for free. killer try to hook them to remove tape? takes long time because shes m1 killer, and wow genius you just hooked someone so you can build an insta kill. totally not counterproductive. the system is unbelievably dumb -
@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834853#Comment_3834853
it's easier to deflect genuine questions as trolling than actually answer them if they challenge your authority.
sadako's kit allows insane map presence and condemn playstyle is incredibly difficult for survivors to deal with due to how much it punished macro mistakes.
survivors having counterplay doesnt really shut it down entirely, they still cant keep TVs down all the time, they still have to rotate around the map and expose themselves to a risk of being intercepted, especially if you play hit&run.
i wouldnt say she is as strong as artist, but she's definitely on the same level as wesker or plague, even stronger than the latter.
its also easier to deflect questions of balance by attempting to gaslight players into questioning the reality which they have spent thousands of hours understanding.
her play style is incredibly easy to deal with - grab a tape, dont go down in 20 seconds, you are good. sure, maybe its hell on earth for the average soloq potato, but any team with half a brain can counter it, still get gens done, and loop you 4ever because you are m1.
survivors being able to shut down TVs in one second without any consequence does completely shut down her mobility. sure maybe you'll have a few TVs in the middle of nowhere, but it takes 2 braincells total to keep any TVs off near any hotspots (gens, hooks, gates) for free. and those are the tvs that actually matter.
lololol stronger than plague