Slingshot47
Slingshot47
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@AshInTheTallGrass said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3089575#Comment_3089575
Also, do you think the duration of main event should change?
No, I don't think so. It's quite long already, the only issue is that you usually have to pop it just to down only one person or else risk losing it. If someone runs out of your range, you're better off just canceling it most of the time.
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I have had 2 out of 6 matches today where someone disconnected, and another 2 where people tried to suicide on hook. The kicker? The DC's were against a Myers and Ghostface who had no add-ons, did not camp or tunnel, and ran fairly balanced perks (Thrilling Tremors, I'm All Ears, BBQ, etc.) Both times, 1 or more gens had been finished, and they were on their first down.
This legitimately tilted me, and it cost my team both matches (the suicides were thankfully stopped by other teammates). I see people complaining about Nurse, Blight, and thana Legion, but no add-on Myers? Seriously?
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From what I can tell, it's a couple of things. Others may disagree, but these are my thoughts.
1.) Because gen times are longer and killer action speeds have been slightly increased, killers can afford to spend more time in chases instead of pressuring gens. While this itself isn't bad, it does make tunneling and camping easier by proxy, camping especially.
2.) Several killer perks that originally encouraged going after multiple targets were changed or nerfed so that they lost those properties. For example, Pain Resonance used to give both the location of the gen with the most progress and any survivors working on it. While I agree that it shouldn't give away the survivors, losing both notifications means that the killer using it often does not know which gen went off, giving them no target to go after.
3.) The nerf to Decisive Strike makes it significantly easier for killers to catch up to survivors who use it.
4.) While basekit BT was a good idea, it is very easy for most killers to wait the 5 seconds it takes to deactivate.
There might be more, but these are what I have noticed.
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No, but there are certainly changes that can be made to both dissuade these playstyles and incentivize others. Tunneling and camping may always exist, but they don't have to remain effective strategies for victory or kills.
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The way I see it, Dead by Daylight is currently a competitive game, similar to fighting games. Sure, you can play the game at a casual level and still potentially have fun, but much of the satisfaction comes from learning how to get better and better. If some changes were made to solo q, tunneling, and camping to make this goal obtainable, I think it would be okay for this game to remain competitive for both sides. Otherwise, I don't see how it would be fair for killers to have to play hard in order to win without expecting the same from survivors. I understand that you have less control over your individual success as a survivor, but that's the nature of the game being asymmetrical.
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I can offer my two cents, if you'd like.
Quick disclaimer, I'm not a fan of the notion that solo queue should be close to or on-par with SWF. The game was never intended for nor balanced around SWF, and a lot of killer abilities and perks can be utterly nullified while making the survivor abilities much stronger. Solo queue better reflects the intended experience of the game, and while I agree that changes can be made for the better now that the game is more competitive, I don't believe that SWF-level abilities is the way to go. By proxy, I don't think that Solo Q should be given voice chat or walkie talkies, as some have suggested.
Since a lot of people have suggested a basekit form of Kindred, I want to address it. I don't think Kindred would be a balanced solution, as the direction of where the killer is going will always be revealed whether they're camping or not (especially if we're talking Tier 3 Kindred). This would be particularly problematic for Trapper and Hag, who would have any traps they set given away. However, I think a good alternative would be to give a notification to survivors whenever the killer is within a certain radius of the hooked survivor (portraits will indicate which survivor specifically). This will still warn survivors that the killer is near a hooked survivor, it just won't give away important information if they're playing normally.
Otzdarva suggested that survivors be able to see each other's perks in the lobby, which I think would be tremendously helpful for in-game coordination. If nothing else, it would help keep a lot of team-oriented perks from going to waste.
Given the above changes, I don't think that action notifications should be added. Knowing what other survivors are doing should require either a line of sight or the use of perks, plenty of which are helpful for this. There should be a level of uncertainty on both sides. The only exception I'd have to this is the inclusion of an indication that a specific survivor is in chase, similar to how the obsession tendrils light up and pulse when in chase. Knowing that someone is in chase is already very powerful information, and it would help others decide if they should stay on gens or not.
Tunneling, Camping, and perk and killer balance changes are a whole other discussion on their own, and this post is already long enough, so I won't talk about them here. There are plenty of more changes that can be made, but I feel that these few changes would be good without going overboard.
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@Mediva said:
Can all the killer mains in this thread pls queue for survivor? play 3 games and then we will talk again. Ez to say survivors are overreacting when you dont play that side. It is very bad right now. Experience it, before saying something you dont even play
Alright. Here's my experience with the roughly 20-30 survivor matches I've played since the update.
Typical build: Fast Track, Smash Hit or Sprint Burst, Kindred, and Deja Vu or Empathy. Played mostly as Yun-Jin, who is now my new favorite survivor.
Camping: 3 campers. 2 Doctors and a Ghostface. One of the Doctors did not camp until the endgame, which makes sense, and we managed to save them without giving him a down.
Tunneling: 1 tunneler, a Huntress. Admittedly frustrating, but I made some stupid mistakes that led to me getting downed in the first place, like dropping pallets right in front of her.
Memers: 2, a Freddy and a Myers. The Freddy was literally spinning in circles the whole match, the Myers appeared to be giving us the match until he basically took me as payment and let everyone else go.
Escape rate: Best guess, roughly 30% of my games.
Killer Variety: Quite a lot. Oni, Legion, Demo, Pyramid Head, Freddy, Myers, Huntress, Doctor, Trapper, Wraith... list goes on.
Overall, my games have been quite fun. I'm not a good survivor by any means, but I've been having fun learning how to improve my chases and stealth. I know that the update has been rough for a lot of people, and I'm not here to say that they're wrong or whiney. I've likely been very lucky. However, I find it rather frustrating and unhelpful to throw insults at one another. Behavior like this is what creates the whiney killer/survivor stereotype. Just because someone else disagrees with you does not make them ignorant. Please, we're better than this.
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@Gamall said:
Do you seriously not realise how much easier the killer experience is now?
I played Artist on Midwich today. Downed 4 people the entire match, which I'll admit was my fault. The survivor were very good. However, I lost all 4 people to flashlight saves that I couldn't stop. Two people were running yellow flashlights (both with yellow add-ons, one with bond). The guy with bond followed me the entire match and blinded me whenever I picked someone up. When I went after him, the other guy came in. The classrooms and hallways were open enough that I couldn't look away, and there was plenty of room to run away from my birds.
No. Killer is not a cakewalk. It's easier, but not nearly as much as people are making it out to be. And before you mistake me for a noob, I've been playing the game for several years and have gotten as high as iridescent 3 rank for killer, gold 4 for survivor.
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@JaviiMii said:
I honestly think there wasn't a single match over the course of the past 50+ matches where a killer didn't slug to ensure there's not even the slightest chance for the last survivor to get hatch. So many games have been dragged out as a slug game for five minutes and more and while in principle it's a valid strategy to slug for 4k the frequency and ... dedication to this kind of excessive slug gaming is.... baffling.
Anyone else having the same experience or am I just having weird killers the past few days?
I know this comment might not be helpful, but Unbreakable on 1 or more people can murder this strategy. Unless the killer is a super good Nurse or Blight, the person with UB will have picked themselves up by the time that the killer downs and picks up the final survivor. If you're lucky, the person who picks themselves up has enough time to pick up 1 or 2 others. I usually avoid slugging more than 2 people specifically because of this.
Out of curiosity, have the killers who've been slugging you run Infectious Fright? I usually run this with Bubba, and it can quickly snowball if multiple people are in my terror radius when it procs.
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The Leon using his flashlight during Dredge's nightfall is actually really damn clever. I'll have to keep this in mind.
I hope your games start to go better. I imagine a lot of people are still getting used to the changes and running new off-meta perks. Hope it's not getting you down too bad.
I know a lot of people are throwing, too.
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Yun-Jin, Kate, Cheryl.
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@MikeyBoi said:
I don’t really see how kicking a gen with call of brine and over charge is any different from old Ruin.. The killer changes make up for pre nerf this update anyways lol..
The killer has to go out of their way to kick a gen, which is time in which survivors can hide, heal, or do another gen. Slower killers like huntress and hag don't really have time to do this. Old Ruin, on the other hand, ran passively and did not have a trigger condition. It could be disabled, but that was time that the survivors had to cleanse it (double the time if Undying or other hexes were in play). This freed up a lot of time for killers to focus on chases. As it currently stands, Ruin is a minor nuisance at best, and it disables automatically anyway. The Overcharge + CoB combination is also largely nullified if the survivors know to touch the gen for a split second, which I've seen survivors do even in chase. If multiple survivors are on the same gen, even better: one person hides while the killer chases the other off; they kick the gen and either pursue or search the area. Whoever the killer does not find or focus on touches the gen to stop the regression, and at best the Overcharge skillcheck knocks some progress off.
Trust me, old Ruin + Undying was much more reliable and effective.
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@indieeden7 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3092884#Comment_3092884
Maybe compare it to hockey next time.
Remember: Skill inherently leads to kills and escapes. 🤣
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Could you imagine if this attitude was adopted by killers in protest of DH and CoH? The logic could easily be applied to them: "I'm tired of miserable matches with SWF groups, so I'm going to DC or go AFK whenever I see a map offering or survivors TB. I shouldn't have to suffer through long, unfair matches that I have no chance of winning."
But this behavior would have been ridiculed (and rightfully so). So what makes this acceptable when survivors do the same?
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I've had a good amount of fun. Matches have been harder, but it's pushed me to be more altruistic and learn chases better to help others. I used to basically avoid the killer and sit on gens the entire game, but now that this doesn't feel as viable, I've had to involve myself more in the match to succeed. And honestly? It's been more fun this way. I feel like a hero hiding under the killer's nose to pick a teammate up or bodyblocking to save them.
There are certainly things about the update that can be improved, and I have been camped and tunneled from time to time. I don't blame the update (for the most part) for this increase, though; camping and tunneling will be a problem so long as they are the most effective strategy for winning, which has been the case for all of DBD's history. Change this fundamental part of the game, and I think it would help solve this problem.
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Garden of Joy
Pro: The size of the map is big enough to have separate, distinct sections without being too difficult to traverse.
Con: The previous statement does not apply to Hillbilly.
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@Marc_go_solo said:
You should try it with randomized builds! As someone who randomizes every trial, as survivor it has become a real test, but in my trials my looping and being chased as survivor has improved much more over a shorter space of time than before. So the patch has been a benefit to me.
As killer it is easier, but it encourages me to make riskier plays and go for the least efficient options when chasing because I know I can just have fun in games now. I'm starting to learn Onryo and am having a blast!
But back to the original "Don't give up" message: I completely agree and my game has improved for the better for it.
I would love randomized builds as an alternative game mode. Have everyone, both killer and survivor, be given a random set of 4 tier 3 perks (regardless of DLC) prior to the match. It'd be fun to try and adapt on the fly.
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I've had to put up with Dead Hard, Circle of Healing, and DS at the exit gate for my entire time playing this game. Survivors would make massive blunders yet still escape by DH'ing into a pallet or window, something most killers could do nothing to stop. Killers like Wraith and Legion felt impossible because CoH killed hit and run tactics. Survivors would deliberately let themselves get downed at the exit gate only to get out with DS. I know I wasn't alone in this sentiment, either. You know what we were told? "Just bait the DH," "Killers just want easy 4Ks," and the ever popular, "Git gud, lol / You're just bad."
Yet I persevered. I learned, practiced, lost over and over again until eventually I had improved considerably.
So yes, there are ultimately two options: adapt, or quit. Quit and you'll never improve. Adapt, and you just might succeed. And if the game is so miserable for you that you'd rather just quit, then I have to ask, why keep playing? I mean no insult, but it doesn't make any sense to play a game that makes you miserable.
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Maybe this perspective might help; if everyone continues to give up, then nothing will change, and nobody will try to improve. If survivors go into a game and see that their teammates are giving up and throwing the game, they will have little choice but to do the same, and everyone will be miserable. It will be a problem that grows the more it happens until hardly anyone wants to play anymore because they can't rely on others to actually try.
On the other hand, people who want to try and win will be grateful that you tried your best to help and may return that kindness. A survivor that hasn't touched a gen all game just might sacrifice themselves to unhook you at the endgame. Additionally, there is almost always something that you can learn from or practice every match, especially difficult ones.
Quitting helps no one; there is always something that you can do. It's okay to lose, too. It makes the 4 man escapes all the sweeter.
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I mean, should he lie and say that he's not having any fun just to appease you? I'm sorry if you're not having fun, but I know I've had quite a lot of fun with both sides as of late (as it stands, I ended up playing considerably more survivor than killer due to queue times).
If omega blink nurse and boon totems didn't kill this game, I don't think this update will.
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The way I see it, if I'm going to go down, I'm going to waste as much of the killer's time as reasonably possible. What's important is to have someone always doing gens so that progress is always being made and the killer's time spent in chases is made valuable. The teams I see fall apart the fastest are those where everyone throws themselves at the hooks trying to rescue one another, giving the killer free injuries, downs, and hooks without any progress being made.
Bottom line: literally anything is better than giving up. Any time spent by the killer is time a gen can go off or survivors can heal. If you give up, all you will do is condemn the rest of your team and even possibly buff the killer further depending on their perks.
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I said this back when the changes were revealed. How was Self-care ever a problem for killers when CoH applies the same effect, does it faster, requires only one person to have it, and can never be permanently destroyed?
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The only times I have this happen, it's because none of the survivors are working on gens when I'm chasing or hooking others. Instead, they throw each other at the hooks and no progress is made. The update did not change this, and I'm still having matches (both killer and survivor) where the first 2-3 gens fly by in a hurry. Not as bad as before, but far from as slow as everyone's making it out to be.
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@Aurelle said:
- Solo survivor improvements, such as base kit Kindred and DS. And/or the icons that can tell what your teammates are doing.
- Survivor BP gain improvements. Add more BP gain to certain actions and new interactions.
- ACTUAL perk improvements. Not the Pharmacy and Calm Spirit nonsense that we got this patch, as those were barely buffs to begin with.
- All killer second chance perks deactivate in Endgame. If survivors second chance perks get deactivated during endgame, then killer's should as well.
- Nerfs to tunneling and camping or at least interactions/objectives that promote the killer to go away from hooked survivors and have their focus elsewhere.
- Make generators more interactive! Gens are boring, especially now with the increased gen time. Make them more interactive, like finding parts around the map and installing them onto gens. This will also solve "gen rushing" issues as well.
- Add a required second objective for survivors. This could be finding parts for gens or something else. This would make the survivor experience a bit better and give killers a bit more time.
- Increase the hooked timer to 4 minutes. Since gens take longer, killers know they can just camp to win. So increasing the hooked timer will give killers less of a reason to camp.
I like a few of these ideas, especially the increase to hook timers. The only issue I have with base kit Kindred is that it will always reveal which direction the killer is going, which is pretty powerful information (especially against stealth killers like Wraith and Ghostface). Perhaps an alternative to revealing the killer's aura might work better, such as a flat indication that the killer is within a certain radius of the hooked survivor.
The gen parts idea is interesting, too. It reminds me of the Evil Dead game, where the survivors have to travel the map finding pieces of the map before they can move on to the next several objectives. This could work quite nicely, though the gen times or number of gens would have to change as compensation.
I think that the most effective way to reduce tunneling/camping would be to change the game's mechanics so that killing a survivor early on or sitting next to them are made to be less effective than hooking multiple survivors. I'm not sure how to go about this, but in my experience, tunneling usually happens because the most effective strategy as killer is to get a single person killed as quickly as possible. Camping achieves a similar effect, though this likely happens more so due to how easy it is and the fact survivors have no counter to it. Maybe give the survivors a stronger counter to camping and give the killers a strong incentive to go after multiple survivors. Perks like No Way Out and old Pain Resonance both encouraged this, but something on a fundamental level would be interesting. I don't know, just my thoughts.
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I would suggest that NOED be revealed as soon as it's active. Almost every other exposure effect in the game immediately warns the survivors that it's in play, so I don't see why NOED is an exception. Even if it's revealed, there's still a good chance that you'll get at least some value out of it before it goes down (if it goes down at all).
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I have to strain my eyes just to look at the survivors. Why was this changed?
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I would rather Robert Englund be the default, but I suppose that's the Copium speaking.
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I hunted down a PS2 specifically to play Silent Hill 2. I absolutely love it.
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RPD is an absolute nightmare for most killers. The size wouldn't be so bad if it weren't so painful to navigate from one part of the map to the other (thank God I've actually played RE2 Remake or else it would be impossible). The convoluted layout makes hooking survivors near impossible if the one hook near you has been disabled, as it takes too long to get to another one. Many pallets in this map are in hallways or other rooms where you have no choice but to break them in order to move.
Survivors know this too; most of the map offerings I see as killer are for this map. You can tell immediately that they mean to give you a hard time.
The map could reasonably be divided into multiple maps, especially if it were expanded to include parts of the surrounding area or the underground. Heck, come to think of it, the streets of Raccoon City itself would make pretty good map material.
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It's huge; the houses take forever to loop through with most killers; it's awful for Dredge due to deadzones, lockers on second floors, and multiple back-to-back loops.
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Sorry, I voted 1, but I actually meant that I'd be really excited. Though 1 was most excited for some reason.
Headless Horseman, with full flame effects, severed pumpkin head, and black mare? Hell yeah, sign me up!
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I'd be fine with CoH having its strong effect if it were able to be destroyed. If your placement is careful, you'll still get quite a few heals off before the killer catches on, and they still have to go out of their way to remove it (really tedious for slower killers like Huntress and Hag).
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I'm playing more survivor largely due to queue time, unfortunately.
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The part of this idea that interests me is seeing what killers would synergize well with one another. Trapper and Deathslinger might be a funny combo; Trapper lays the traps, Slinger reels them towards them.
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I think giving him to option to hold onto his main event once charged would help tremendously.
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We really haven't had any robotic or technological killers in the game so far. Would be interesting to see one.
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Robert Englund Freddy might be enough to actually get me to buy him.
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I don't get it either. Ever since CoH, Thana has largely been ineffective on all but Legion and Plague because of how fast (and often hidden) heals happened. I still see CoH quite often, and medkits are still strong enough that Thana doesn't work on other killers. Otherwise, I don't see how a whole 2% slowdown is enough to ruin the game when Prove Thyself, Toolboxes (especially w/ Brand New Parts), and Resilience can all override this effect.
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I main killer for the most part, and even I think this perk was hit too hard. The requirements for it the remain active already mean that the survivors take a huge risk by not interacting with hardly anything. Now they don't gain enough distance to get away from most killers, especially faster killers like Nurse and Blight. I was happy with the endgame deactivation, but yeah, the duration should be reverted. It wasn't a problem to begin with.
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I know others are having a hard time, but I can't say that I've had a bad time myself. I'm having an even balance of deaths and escapes, and I'm having fun learning to use new perks, trying new builds, and practicing my chases. I don't think that this patch encouraged anymore tunneling or camping than usual, and I'd argue that this is more the result of the game's overall mechanics rather than 10 seconds of additional gen time.
Sure, survivor isn't easy, but when has it ever been? The best advice I can give for right now is to not give up. There are still ways to have fun with the game. If it is too stressful for you, though, it's okay to take a break too.
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I liked Garden of Joy until I tried playing Bubba and Billy on it. The hitboxes on the foliage are WAY bigger than they look, making it way too easy to bump into crap. With the amount of clutter everywhere, good luck getting around the map with Billy.
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@deKlaw_04 said:
Wasting perks slots to counter game flaws
I actually agree with this, despite maining killer. Shattered Hope was the same deal: a band-aid solution for a major design flaw.
I've been thinking lately, in regard to tunneling/camping, what if we find some ways to incentivize killers for hooking multiple survivors more? Tunneling and camping are usually used by people trying their hardest to win or at least ensure kills, so what happens if we change that aspect of the game? If the most effective strategy becomes hooking everyone multiple times, then I imagine tunneling and camping would be reduced drastically.
Tunneling and camping should of course be discouraged by the game's mechanics equally, but I think that a similar incentive to multiple hooks would encourage fairer gameplay without making the killers lose power. I'd be curious to hear what others think of this.
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While I've not used it myself and so can't speak to it's overall effectiveness, I have had survivors put DH to good use when I'm playing insta-down killers like Myers and Bubba.
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Thank you. I came onto the forums today to see what people thought and saw an absolute slew of people hating on both killers and survivors.
I've seen many survivors criticize camping and tunneling by accusing killers of being whiny and lazy when they don't get 4 kills every match. They then complain about perks like Pain Resonance that used to encourage killers to go after multiple survivors.
I've also seen killers dismissing the frustration of survivors by claiming that they are either entitled or whining because they don't have a crutch to rely on anymore.
This type of criticism is not constructive and helps no one. If the game has problems, then let's try and figure out solutions that might work for both sides instead of making each other feel miserable.
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When I started learning Nurse recently, I started with a build that contained Nurse's, Thana, and Sloppy to put survivors in a difficult situation regarding healing. I figured that if I injured enough people, which is fairly easy with Nurse, I could force survivors into either revealing themselves or suffering from slowdown, all extended by sloppy.
What a fool I was.
A few games in, after a few successes, I had a game where 1 survivor with 1 boon managed to pull off a very fast heal right next to me. Turned out they were running CoH and Shadow Step. Every game afterwards, the same thing kept happening. 2 out of the 16 survivor perks countered 3 out of my 4.
Lesson learned: Thana and sloppy are useless in the boon meta, and CoH is always paired with Shadow Step when you least want it to be.
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Hillbilly has it even worse.