Skillfulstone
Skillfulstone
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@Emeal said:
You can only be Quick mori'ed with the Item at 2 hook states.
That's not the point.
The point is that Survivors have absolutely no control over when they will even get a chance to get the achievement.
Achievements like "do X generator on X map and escape" can be (almost) guaranteed an attempt by using a map offering. Various actions can effectively be attempted in most matches (achievements requiring various healing or self-unhooking etc.). However Hand-Eye Coordination not only requires to end up against Vecna (which is already a pretty rare sight due to his low pickrate and the sheer amount of different Killers) but you need to survive and you need to get one of the two special items before one of your teammates and not get tunneled as a result (as Vecna will often prioritize a Survivor with the item since they can be killed quickly and they are likely injured).
Combine all those things together and you have an achievement that is egregiously hard to get, but not because of any skill involved, almost purely due to luck. This is simply a poorly designed achievement due to how much luck is involved. Most of the people who got the achievement (myself included) got it in the first couple days after Vecna release due to the short-lived very high pickrate post-release before he mostly vanished.
No (Survivor) achievement should ever be linked to a particular Killer, not with the sheer number of Killers, which is growing, in the game).
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The Art team is always cooking.
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The mechanic itself isn't worthless, the idea is decent, however (despite many people saying so and even posting videos showcasing it) it was implemented poorly.
Many Killers can still 3-gen decently (Dull Merchant was the top dog for that but now...well if someone played her again we could tell) and it's still difficult to deal with (greatly dependant on the map & Killer) but against most of the M1/weaker side of the Killer spectrum it is not difficult to weaponize the "Anti-3-gen" system in order to keep a free gen for the end.
If the mechanic only kicked-in at 4 gens remaining on the map then it wouldn't be so bad because at least the system couldn't be weaponized from the start and it truly would only be there to prevent endless lategame stalemates.
@Iron_Cutlass Undone also applies 2 regression events if tokens are used when kicking (tested this with a friend in custom and blocked the gen in 4 kicks). Not only was this perk D.O.A in the first place but the system double-tapped it to guarantee it basically never sees unironical use.
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@jesterkind said:
I don't think it's a good idea, personally.
The way I see it, the reasons people would want to see their MMR number fall into three broad camps, with only two being particularly relevant.
The first is simple idle curiosity. The kind of person who'd see the MMR number, go "huh, neat", and then basically ignore it because they know it doesn't really matter for any practical purpose. I think it's fair to generally set this camp aside because they generally aren't the ones actively asking for MMR, and because, y'know, idle curiosity isn't necessarily a compelling reason all on its own.
The second is those who want to treat their MMR like a progression system. They know it rates their skill (though they may misunderstand what that means), they know they want to get better, ergo, they should try and make their MMR number go up. Since the MMR system isn't designed to be treated this way, this would really just reinforce bad habits that already exist- winning by any cost and never improving the fundamentals, leading to being much more adversely affected if any of the stuff you're leaning on gets nerfed or changed.
This alone isn't a huge reason not to show MMR, but it also means it can't be a reason to pursue it either. The thing people think they'd get wouldn't manifest; what they'd actually get would be useless at best, harmful at worst.
The third is the worst example, those who think it'd be useful for discussions. We can already see some individuals in this thread making this argument - that people with higher MMR would necessarily have better credibility in debates, and should be listened to more than those with lower MMR.
This, point blank, is just wrong. MMR flat out doesn't measure anything related to someone's arguments in a debate, and it isn't meant to. It doesn't measure their knowledge of the game as a whole, it doesn't measure their ability to correctly predict the outcomes of suggested changes, it doesn't measure their knowledge of game design as a whole or DBD's design philosophy in particular- hell, MMR doesn't even measure someone's individual skill with the fundamentals of the game, because it isn't meant to, that isn't the skill being measured.
Again, these outcomes probably wouldn't be that much worse than what we already have… but they would just be worse with no real upside, in my opinion.
This. Just THIS.
@jesterkind saved me from writing a novel but this right there is basically it: MMR cannot be available because many people would just use it to look down on others/diminish the validity of their opinions while putting people with high MMR as the only ones with the right to be listened to (maybe themselves or likely some content creator that has a similar opinion etc.)
It's already very difficult for threads to not devolve into "us vs them" eventually, if MMR was visible then every single opinions would be answered by "Well what's your MMR?".
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@PetTheDoggo said:
I mean, BHVR support team is going to have a lot of fun now, so maybe that will get them to show it by default…
Something happened?
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You crossed path with a content creator doing a Hardcore Survivor challenge didn't you?
In all seriousness, the mmr system doesn't let smurfs stay with newcomers for long so experienced players will quickly go against other experienced players if they absolutely demolish them.
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I wouldn't waste my time asking for this. Many people already explained why the system was flawed, sometimes even including videos of instances of Survivors weaponizing the "Anti-3-gen" system to essentially guarantee a free gen in endgame/make the Killer stop regressing gens in fear of having a gen blocked by mistake, or instances of perks like Eruption and/or Surge that can block generators in record time without meaning to and in less than 4 kicks. To no avail.
Also, Undone (a trash perk that was D.O.A even without the system) also uses up 2 regression events if tokens are used when kicking a gen (tested this with a friend in custom and got a laugh out of it when the gen blocked after 4 kicks, at least the perk is garbage so nonody uses it, there's a reason why I've only seen one other person than me mention Undone in these threads).
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As long as licenses keep arriving to the game (the biggest player count rises in DBD history were around the RE chapters for a reason) and no major legal issues happen, the game is essentially immortal since it has NO COMPETITION.
The closest thing to competition was TCM, but the utter lack of anti-cheat caused the PC hackers to destroy the game (by making the devs split the game between PC and everybody else, trapping the countless hackers with the PC players and driving them away) and the lack of real evolution killed the game before it could grow.
DBD has the massive advantages of approaching a decade of lifespan and hordes of content creators constantly promoting the game and keeping it relevant even during it's worst moments and having incredible variety in terms of characters. In what other game can you see Nemesis chasing after Nicholas Cage in the ruins of the Nostromo? XD
The only thing that would permanently cement the game's immortality would be a fully-functional PVE mode in which challenges/achievements can be acquired. Many of the players that leave/don't stick around are people who started playing and then got BMed so hard (and/or threatened/mocked in post-game chat relentlessly) they just decided it wasn't worth it. The human player element is ironically one of the reasons for people leaving. If people that didn't want to deal with other people could progress in the game then you'd see a player retention increase (even if those players wouldn't really affect the main queues).
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@PetTheDoggo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872664#Comment_3872664
All remaining Survivors are slugged.
Doesn't really have good implication. What if I manage to slug three survivors as Oni and chase last one? I should just follow them until everyone else bleed out?
In this hypothetical mechanic, there would be a decent amount of time to reach before being able to recover, time which the Killer should use to hook. Maybe multiple conditions can trigger the mechanic etc.
And quite frankly, if you manage to down an entire team at once as Oni, then they are either greatly outmatched or you have 1000 ping, either way they aren't making a comeback.
Also, those are basic ideas, building upon them and then hoping that said ideas are implemented in a healthy way is the goal.
Side-note: If you would purposefully let 3 people bleedout for 4 minutes while chasing 1 Survivor but keeping him up out of spite, then you are part of the problem that this thread (and countless others since the ill-thought-out Finisher Mori was implemented) are desperately trying to solve.
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@Rulebreaker said:
We're going to ask this again because we never get a satisfying answer: What can the devs add that would both be fair and not abusable?
Here are a few ideas;
1: The Survivors can pick themselves up under certain conditions such as;
- Only two Survivors remain.
- All remaining Survivors are slugged.
- A Survivor is slugged for 60 seconds and no teammates are within 20 meters (a distance that cannot be realistically covered for potential saves, preventing lose-lose situations for the Killer like in that horrid PTB).
Managing to get up using one of these methods (not in general) would grant a brief Endurance period (to prevent Killers from simply standing over a slug and down them instantly) akin to an unhook.
2: If all Survivors are slugged or if only 2 Survivors remain and one is slugged for more than 15 seconds, the slugged Survivor(s) can choose to instantly bleedout. These deaths would count as bleedout deaths (low bp, no hook actions) for emblem, challenges and pipping purposes.
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Not at all, a "toxic" build would be something like Head On, Flashbang, Blast Mine and Champion of Light, complete with a purple Beamer with best duration add-ons.
(Head-on stun, drop Flashbang which hinders the Killer, run away. Bonus annoyance if the Survivor manages a chain blind from afar. Blast Mine replaces the first two steps due to blind.)
Your build actually has a strategic utility other than burning away the Killer's retina.
And since they apparently got destroyed, with several rage DC, it's likely not your build that was the breaking point. Chances are they got looped to oblivion (while getting blinded at every pallets) and teabagged so much by your teammates they just didn't want to deal with it anymore.
Honestly I'd rather deal with a diversion build than a blind build. At least it's rather novel and amusing.
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Honestly, if this hits live servers then it can only be in 2v8 queues.
No matter how weird it would be to play with like 2-4 bots in lobby, no one likes waiting in queue for 20+ minutes. So many people would stay in the mode rather than going "The moment I'm done with the 2v8 tome challenges I ain't touching it again".
Bots in normal queue would just completely skew any kind of stats (even more so than the current wave of people going next on hook which greatly inflate killrates) and would be boring over time.
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Even Youtubers are joining this thing.
Apparently it's getting some more recognition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbszPoaQG40
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With FNAF coming soon, it's possible that you'll get your wish and that people will get fnaf-jumpscared with ear-blasting noise and flashing lights every 30 seconds.
I sure as hell hope not, if only for health hazard reasons, but it's a possibility due to the source material.
I'm honestly not sure an original Killer nor licensed should be jumpscared-based, purely because of how buggy the game is and how it could just be hazardous for some people and beyond annoying in record time.
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I think (hope) that the devs will tackle slugging (ideally by reworking the Finisher Mori and/or give basekit workarounds to team-slugging/slugging for the 4k) and THEN will eventually come back to Twins
Twins's reputation and, to some extent, their high killrate, are directly tied to their ability to slug multiple Survivors (which greatly enhances the amount of people giving up out of boredom). Short of a complete power redesign there's really no way to "fix" Twin without first tackling slugging.
One of the main reason why Twins wasn't "Skull Merchant'ed" into oblivion is because Twins's pickrate is already abysmal and doesn't add any substantial amount of "fake stats".
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@CursedPerson said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865118#Comment_3865118
yes. Im not upset about it im just sharing a scenario that happened. We both ended up wasting an extra 1-2 minutes. I was content waiting watching youtube while they were probably doing the same. It really just goes to show how bad the mori is for the game.
Oh XD
My mistake, I misunderstood, too used to seeing people share scenarios like this and be of the opinion that "Finisher Mori is good, all of you are wrong".
But yeah, it's just unhealthy in general and created problems rather than solving them. It could be changed to be a healthy incentive though.
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@CursedPerson said:
I had a game where I downed a survivor at the other side of the map I was planning on using a mori since i hadnt used it on the killer i was playing the other 2 survivors still alive waited at exit till last possible second of timer. They said "lol you didn't get to mori". I said "gg goodjob bro" like youre really just wasting your time and the dude who was downed's time
Survivors going out of their way to deny the Mori isn't exactly rare since the Finisher Mori, the situation you described is often a thing SWF do if the Killer is obviously waiting on a slug to Mori in EGC instead of hooking or at the very least try to push the others out if the Mori is that important.
More often than not, these are SWF on comms and they talked/watched videos and stuff while waiting and all of them were in on it so they didn't mind. Unfortunately there are enough players that will wait until the very last moment to Mori a slug even if they coulld have done it earlier for Survivors to try to deny it. Even if you had only wanted the Mori, they had no way to know that and for all they knew their teammate was only getting Moried 0.5 seconds before dying, possibly after getting WSed before.
Side-note: This exact situation (the Killer slugging and waiting for the Mori in an already-over game rather than hooking, wasting minutes) is among the things that make people hate the Finisher Mori and want it's removal or at least a healthy rework of it.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864594#Comment_3864594
The reason people slug for the 4K is due to how the hatch works. Removing the finisher mori will not change this.
Did it create slugging for the 4k? Absolutely not.
It did make it worse however, the number of threads about this exact topic recently speak for themselves.
The Finisher Mori could be easily reworked into a healthy thing though. By, for example, making the Finisher Mori give some extra BP but only available if the 4th Survivor is standing when the 3rd one dies by sacrifice or mori (not by bleedout) it would give incentive to not slug for the 4k and thus not drag the game on.
Sure people that want the 4k at all costs will still slug, nothing will change that, but at least it'll return the status that was there before. And this way it'll reward Killers that take the gamble of a Hatch race and succeed more than those that bypass it entirely by dragging the game on. Not to mention getting moried after losing a Hatch race will feel way less frustrating than getting moried after twiddling your thumbs for several minutes.
Hell, it might reduce people going next a tiny bit since now surviving until the end might now mean that a Hatch race is possible.
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The Finisher Mori actively incentivizes slugging for the 4k (slugging the 3rd Survivor and leaving them alive in order to search for the 4th Survivor, often leading to ≈4 minutes of boredom which ends by a mori or bleedout) which makes most games end in a whole lot of wasted time and/or a mori animation which everyone has seen dozens of times by now.
People going next/DCing before being last/during the animation is a result of people being sick of most of their games ending in several minutes of nothing followed by an animation that often feels like the Killer equivalent of Survivors trolling at the gates.
The Finisher Mori, as it is currently implemented at least, adds little of value to the game and encourages unhealthy/boring gameplay. Rewarding a 4k, no matter the means, increased slugging (the forum threads speak for themselves) and made many people prefer dying early over being one of the 2 last Survivors.
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Didn't a dev in a stream, a long time ago, say that MMR doesn't apply to events/modifiers?
I can't recall where but I heard that events & modifiers ignore MMR.
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Honestly, except for Hand-Eye Coordination (which I luckily got in like 2 days after Vecna release since now it's ridiculously difficult due to low pickrate) the only achievement that is ridiculously unreasonable is Left for Dead. One of the only achievement I'm missing and will likely never get XD
How the hell is that supposed to happen nowadays except against merciful Killers (or streamers that one of your SWF friend managed to convince after getting killed and seeing their name)? In the old days hiding was easier (less info perks, bigger maps and Distortion still viable, not to mention EGC which made the achievement even harder by blocking gens if Killer closes Hatch) and Killers were weaker overall but I honestly don't think I'll ever get this achievement, at least not without setup or purposefully throwing the team under the metaphorical bus.
The others are usually either a matter of time and/or a bit of luck, with Hand-Eye Coordination being an exception, hopefully unique, thankfully.
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I'm honestly just concerned about possible health hazards a FNAF Killer can bring.
Fnaf is a game which has the "horror" label almost only because it's 90% loud jumpscares and flashing screens, those kind of things (which will become beyond infuriating even for people without any medical issues after a while, imagine just getting fnaf-jumpscared but repeatedly every 1-2 minutes) can cause issues (seizures, diziness etc.) for many people.
Remember the flashing basement bug? The thing that justified a seizure warning to show up on startup? Yeah I'd rather not have a Killer that has jumpscares and flashing screens/ear-blasting noise as it's entire gimmick.
BHVR, for all their faults and issues, have a good track record when it comes to making licensed content. Even the weakest licensed Killers are lore-accurate gameplay-wise and, even if weak, are interesting and unique in their own way during gameplay. There's no way to make a fnaf Killer without basing it's power around sensory overload and epileptic seizure hazard, even if somehow they manage to not make the most visually and audibly insufferable Killer yet, there's no way that the Mori will lack the classic "death" animation jumpscare (and with the horrid ill-thought-out Finisher Mori... hopefully the community unites once more toward a common goal against it, it's bad enough that it incentivizes slugging for the 4k).
I honestly don't really mind an animatronic Killer (although a possible wave of kids is unnerving, although manageable thanks to not being forced to hear other players) but for once, the Killer can't be too close to the source material.
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@zacmangaming said:
Kinda hard if you don't have the time. I'm someone who's passed the bloodpoint cap so codes/rank reset is kinda the only way I can gain bps too
Don't forget the bp that you get from the Rift also go over the cap (granted it's 5k per rank after a certain point but still) and adds up rather quickly.
A full rift, combined with rank resets, over the cap can get you enough to P3 a new character or two instantly if you don't spend BP beforehand.
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Nurse and Blight are very hard to nerf, but not because of their strength per-say. It's complicated to nerf them because of the identity DBD wants to show; a game that is not purely pay-to-win.
As of now, it's debatable and the monetization system could honestly be way worse. The two strongest Killers are free (one of them starting) and (most) of the meta perks are not licensed, some of them are even starting perks.
Removing hug-tech was already a serious blow to Blight's skill floor (his potential remains mostly unchanged in the right hands), almost doubling his cooldown would be a bit much. The only thing that Blight could use would be to make breaking pallets with Lethal Rush a bit longer. He's already very fast and being a pallet shredder on top is a bit much in my opinion.
Nurse honestly should just have Blindness when charging Blink. The op was right in the fact that Distortion was killed off and it was one of the only semi-viable defense against a Nurse (although the wording could have been smoother).
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I don't know...
On one hand it would be very nice and a simple & great QOL change.
On the other, I'm afraid it'll break every perks affected and they'll be killswitched for an indefinite amount of time XD
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@Behelit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852724#Comment_3852724
That’s quite an assumption to make. Just because people care about the same issue and are voicing their concerns doesn’t make them bots or one person with multiple accounts. If so many people are speaking up, maybe it’s time to consider that the issue is real instead of trying to discredit it.
Not to be that guy, but half the comments on that other thread are almost copy-pasted. Some of them are downright identical. Although a handful of them might be real, it's usually pretty clear when you read them.
I'm all for giving the benefit of the doubt, but it's pretty obvious that, for most of them, it's either bots or burner accounts that are used to try to force BHVR to create servers by trying to use their public image of inclusivity against them. Not only is this method morally grey but it also, like this thread shows, makes people skeptical and dismissive rather than help the cause.
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@Caiman said:
Killers tunneled and camped before it was added, and they would continue to tunnel and camp if it was taken away. Blaming the mori is just a scapegoat.
Did it create slugging, tunnelling and camping? Absolutely not, those existed since day 1 and were far more uncounterable before.
Did it make it worse? It made slugging worse, more specifically slugging for the 4k, but it's impact on tunnelling and camping has been very negligible. While seeing a cool cutscene can motivate players to play more aggressively in order to see it, regardless of how boring the method is, most of the time the real difference will be seen in endgame.
The Finisher Mori could be tweaked into something healthy though.
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Yeah, now the Killer can Mori the last Survivor in a trial after downing them.
This greatly encourages, and increased, Killers to down the last 2 Survivors (to prevent Hatch) and either waiting over the one with the most bleedout timer or hooking one before waiting over the other for a Mori.
It was a poorly thought-out addition that could be tweaked to be healthy.
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@Astel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844657#Comment_3844657
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844707#Comment_3844707
Two different accounts with low-posts number saying the exactly same thing with no difference in a single character. Definitely not burner accounts.
@BugReporterOnly said:
Spamming won't do anything they are aware and have merged all of this into one post if anything this can harm your cause.
Yeah...countless threads and similar posts & suspiciously new accounts showed up recently. it's annoying because this spamming attempt is burying actual feedback and suggestions.
Like, I'm not saying that middle-east servers aren't bad, but this is not really helping.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847817#Comment_3847817
Back on that PTB, the actual basekit effect wasn't all that bad. The problem that PTB had was the things that orbited the basekit effect, like making Unbreakable (the perk) completely overpowered and somewhat-unrelated things like the generally unpopular older version of the Finishing Mori removing moris from perks and turning all mori offerings into BP offerings.
The basekit version of this effect took 45 seconds, which was honestly pretty reasonable. That PTB was not pleasant, but it doesn't necessarily mean the idea of a basekit Unbreakable is completely unworkable— just that the implementation they went with first had major flaws.
It wasn't just that.
While it's true that the og Finisher Mori & offering/perk changes were also disgusting (I still can't believe they still, mostly, went ahead with the Finisher Mori despite so many people despising it and predicting that it would make slugging for the 4k worse, the current situation proving those fears true) the core problem was how it created countless lose-lose scenarios and annoying situations and how it really didn't really fix any issue without creating another in it's place.
People would still try to slug for the 4k but they would alternate between downing the last 2 Survivors again and again (since they would keep getting up in record time thanks to various perks, not just Unbreakable) and endgame bleedouts would not only still exists but would be even longer and still boring since what hope can 2 Survivors have of finishing 2+gens on their own? So many of my games in that dreadful PTB ended with one Survivor hiding in a corner while dropping/picking up item so his teammate would keep getting up because the Killer couldn't find him, these stupid stalemates could go on for 15+ minutes!
This also turned the gap between SWF and SoloQ into an ocean. SWF could create countless lose-lose scenarios (the most common was hovering around a downed Survivor so that if the Killer picked up he would get blinded/pallet stunned but if he chased the rescuer away then the slug could repeatedly get up and leave, no need for Power Struggle & Flip-Flop to create situations like that now, where the Killer can simply leave the slug there; it's likely not going anywhere anytime soon and a 3rd Survivor will have to leave gens to pick them up since a potential Unbreakable only works once). Those situations, which were common against decent Survivors and/or SWF, were just discouraging and nuked the fun out of the game.
BHVR, rightfully so, has shown (through HUD/perk updates and said so in a past livestream sometime around the 6.5.0 update) that they want to try to bridge the gap between SWF and SoloQ because they know (they hear and see enough) that SoloQ is often a miserable experience. Basekit Unbreakable made the difference far worse.
Basekit Unbreakable was poison for the game, even worse than the annoying Finisher Mori we got now (which could easily be tweaked to be a healthy thing), and it can't come to the base game, imagine being a newcomer (or just any average player) and having to deal with 15+ minutes of constant slugging just as often as slugging for the 4k was before.
No, if a solution is to be made then it simply can't remove slugging entirely. A "bleedout button" is honestly a decent idea if it's implemented correctly, although a slight modification to the current Finisher Mori would also help a bit and be less of a (potential) tool to go next.
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https://youtu.be/4YylV9xqt9A?si=YnWR6etNPxvnw_mL
There ya go, this is proof enough of how egregious basekit Unbreakable is. That horrible PTB was just painful.
Keep in mind that back then, sabo was slower and HUD gave less info. It would be even worse nowadays.
If any kind of "solution" is made, then it must only come into effect in extreme cases (team-slugging, slugging for the 4k etc.). But slugging itself shouldn't become impossible. The Finisher Mori (as it is now) only makes the problem worse but could be easily tweaked to help somewhat reduce slugging for the 4k.
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@Emeal said:
I hope we get a new Swamp map with that mansion in it, 2 floors and an attic. lets make it a real house to chase in.
Please dont disappoint us with the coming Swamp rework, go above and beyond map team.Looks at reworks of Haddonfield, Borgo and Garden of Joy.
Yeah...Hope for the best, assume the worst. Don't have expectations, just hopes.
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It's still not as idiotic as Eye-Hand Coordination, an achievement which became nigh-impossible to get mere days after Vecna release.
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It's kinda annoying that they remove BP bonuses, especially since all those perks are general perks that are available at the start and can help somewhat reduce the grind for new players (said grind only becomes longer as updates pile up).
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Same here.
I gotta admit, Achievements not popping (or popping with a delay) isn't anything new (it's kinda funny when an adept achievement pops up literally the next day on startup XD), but achievements entirely missing from the game at chapter release is a new one.
You might want to use the Bug Report template though, the devs often say that (even though some issues are really straightforward) the template helps them, and it will likely bring attention to the thread a bit more.
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@Philscooper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844020#Comment_3844020
maybe time for a meta-shake up
Just because a perk is popular, doesn't mean it's overtuned nor deserving of a nerf (old BBQ for example.). There's enough popular perks that got gutted into uselessness already despite being easily reworked or reasonably nerfed instead.
If BHVR really insists on a "meta shake-up" then old, useless perks should be buffed/reworked to modern standards (there's no lack of choice). A few already went through this over time (Zanshin, WGLF for example) and it's a good thread to continue.
You know, instead of creating new perks that are utterly busted and killing them off a few months later. Or creating a system actively incentivizing slugging for the 4k instead of rewarding those that don't slug for the 4k.
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Killer queues are already unbearable and you want to add another restriction?
It's bad enough that Killers wait 15+ minutes to play a match which often ends in ≈5 minutes (if the server doesn't crash or a hacker doesn't manually crash it) with a pretty small selection to choose from, but now the selection would be even smaller.
For the little time they get to play vs how long they wait, at least let Killer players play who they want (there's already the "no duplicates" stipulation anyway).
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@Xernoton said:
Can someone explain to me what exactly the finisher mori has to do with these things?
Killers were doing that anyway because they wanted the 4k. I really don't see why everyone would be so hellbent on seeing the mori play out.
It's kind of nice for the first 1 or 2 games but after that, it really is nothing special anymore. Just a convenient way to end the match when it's over anyway.
@Vishlumbra said:
People love to toss the "toxic playstyle" constantly. WHY do you think tunneling, camping hook and sluggin exists?
Do you think MOST killers are just wanting to ruin your game? NO. People like to win, thats the whole point. The whole idea of the game is to be competitive and surviving a match feels like an acomplishment, just as beating a group of good survivors is for killers.
The thing is that with whats POSSIBLE to do, with the current perks and add ons and items survivor have, it´s not easy for killers to win matches. WHEN survivors are playing to win.
Strategies come from EXPERIENCE playing the game. Survivors and killers are getting better, pushing the boundries of what is possible to do.
Right now, what you call TOXIC, are strategies to WIN, of course, I do not agree it should be encouraged or hell, even allowed, fine, BUT, you also have to ask WHY. If they were to completly eliminate something killers are doing to counter current meta game of survivors, you also have to check the balance of things that are possible with a group of GOOD survivors playing to win.
Finisher Mori is not the reason why killers slug at the end, they slug so the fourth cant escape because they want to get the BEST result possible, which is: 4K.
Just as why 3 survivors escaping a trial could just leave a fourth guy behind to assure they will win, but sometimes they come back and try to go for the 4 people escape. The BEST result they can obtain.
While OP is rather...blunt in his statement, let's elaborate. People don't mind the Mori per-say. Before this, Mori animations were liked (or at least tolerated) but now, with them happening in most matches, it got old really quick and now they're merely seen as "additional reason why the game won't end" instead of a cool cutscene that didn't happen often.
By hiding a Mori animation behind a 4k, it automatically incentivizes people to slug for the 4k...and we all know how fun and riveting it is. It's true that it happened before already, the Finisher Mori didn't create it, but the sheer number of threads talking about it since the Finisher Mori was introduced speaks for themselves of how it got worse.
We already hear it everywhere, Killers slugging the last 2 and then waiting for one to die (either by bleedout or simply standing over the last slug after hooking the 3rd, wasting minutes instead of ending the game in seconds even when there's hooks within spitting distance) just to Mori the last, is only making people hate those animations due to them encouraging such endgames and making the game even less casual/newcomer-friendly than it already is (as newcomers/low-mmr players will see their games end in a 4k more often).
There's a reason why the dreadful basekit Unbreakable was attempted alongside the previous Finisher Mori PTB: otherwise almost every single games would just end in a slugfest. Hell, during that PTB there were more bleedout slugfest games than normal even though people could get up because Killer players wanted that animation after killing the first 2 Survivors.
[Quite frankly, it wouldn't be that hard to keep the Finisher Mori but make it into something that rewards those that don't slug for the 4k and win the Hatch race without removing 4k slugging for those that merely want to secure the win: The Finisher Mori only becomes available if the last Survivor is on their feet (healthy or injured or Plot-Twisting, that last one is to prevent from trying to purposefully deny the Mori by using the perk right before the other dies) when the second-to-last Survivor dies by sacrifice, by unique Mori (NOT by bleedout) or escapes. Succeeding would grant extra BP for the extra steps.]
(There's threads about similar solutions)
The goal isn't to remove things, it's to make things healthier. Slugging for the 4k was already a common thing, but it wasn't as prevalent and Mori animations weren't seen as a chore. This same mindset applies to countless aspects of the game but this one is currently making a big impact but could be turned into something good.
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@Archael said:
Then why killer que is so damn high?
Because it's by far the best and most refreshing aspect of 2v8.
2v8 has been requested since basically day 1. However the Survivor side was always a (often dysfonctional) team-based game with teamwork making all the difference. The ability to play with friends has been Survivor-exclusive until recently (modded servers don't really count).
The Killer side however has been basically single player and most of the time the sole "target" in post-game chat. With 2v8 not only can you play with your friend but you now aren't alone when/if the other side throws slurs/threats at you. The Killer experience is way more fresh and different from normal than Survivors (which is roughly the same as usual, even more so now that flashlight saves are possible again) which is the whole appeal of the mode.
Simply put, DBD's playerbase simply isn't big enough to sustain 2 different queues (normal & something else) at once, especially when one side is blatantly more fun and refreshing than the other, while maintaining decent queue times.
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If the playerbase was big enough (and Survivor in 2v8 was as appealing and fresh as Killers in 2v8) to sustain 2 queues without making Killer queue times 15+ minutes (for a ≈5 min match assuming the server doesn't randomly crash/a hacker doesn't crash the server) then I'd be fine with 2v8 to be there long-term.
However it's very much not the case, so no. The Killer queue times are horrible enough when it's there short-term, no need to make this a permanent thing.
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@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834365#Comment_3834365
Yeah.. because survivors ever care about the killers fun, you all seem to forget its a two way street.
The DC penalty needs to be more severe if anything, what they need to do it remove any possibility of killing yourself on hook by remove unhooks that arent 100% and stage 2 skill checks. Survivors can't be trusted to have interactivity with their hook states so they need to go, its simple really.
There's no epidemic though, thats just what people preach to try and get basekit buffs
I'm not sure if you were around then, but people don't want basekit Unbreakable, on either side.
When the devs first tried the idea of basekit Unbreakable alongside the original Finisher Mori, almost the entire playerbase united against it and it got scrapped (a rather unprecedented event). Basekit Unbreakable simply cannot happen, it would fix one problem but create more and turn the gap between SWF and SoloQ into an ocean.
In fact, most people don't mind the Finisher Mori animation in and of itself (although it gets old after a while), people mind the fact that it incentivizes slugging for the 4k even more than before (which is a feat). Most of the well-thought-out suggestions I see are people suggesting simply adding some sort of condition to be able to do the Finisher Mori (usually revolving around the 3rd Survivor escaping, dying by sacrifice, or dying by Mori while the last Survivor is still on their feet) without making slugging itself impossible.
Unfortunately the DC penalty can't exactly be more severe due to the game simply being too unstable and cheaters (that can crash the server on-command) being too common for it. If the game was stable I wouldn't really mind but the server kicks us out of the game at least 3 times a week and getting a 3-5 minutes penalty for something completely out of our control would just be annoying. I'm not saying it should go (we all know what happens when it's gone after having gone through the few periods when it was gone, it was barely possible to play a full game) but it can't be too severe due to how unreliable the game is.
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It's ironic, yet was predicted by myself and many others when it was announced (and anyone with a modicum of experience saw this coming), that the Finisher Mori system, which was (in part) advertised as a way to reduce slugging for the 4k/hasten endgame alongside making Mori animations more common (likely for future paid Mori animations purposes) just made it worse and also made the "Last 2 Survivors hiding forever to not be the last" worse at the same time.
Like, we don't even want it gone, just healthy. And it wouldn't be that complex;
When the second-to-last Survivor either escapes or dies by sacrifice/Killer-unique Mori/RBT (NOT by bleedout) and the last Survivor is healthy or injured, the Killer can use the Finisher Mori if they manage to down the last Survivor before they escape and this would grant some extra bp.
The goal isn't to punish people who slug for the 4k because of adepts/tome challenges, the goal is to make the Finisher Mori a reward for playing the entire trial and not wasting 4 minutes instead of encouraging endgame slugging.
There's a pessimistic part of me that almost believes that the current iteration of the system is making 4k slugging worse on purpose so that, as it was rejected by almost the whole playerbase last time, people give up and just ask for basekit Unbreakable to not deal with endgame slugging basically every games anymore despite that it will create more problems than it solves and void any effort BHVR does to bridge the gap between SWF and SoloQ.
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@Senaxu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831810#Comment_3831810
Well, a change is necessary. The game should remain fair for both sides.
And a lack of counter play isn't fair.This may not be a problem if you only play a single side, but it is still a fact.
@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831810#Comment_3831810
He really needs a couple minor changes.
If recent history is to be believed, there is no middle-ground when dealing with even slightly-overtuned stuff recently, it's either nerfed into uselessness or absolutely meaningless changes that either don't fix the issue or create a new one (each not being mutually exclusive).
I'd like to be optimistic, I really do, but I honestly have very little faith in the coming Killer changes/tweaks. The only hope I keep is that Wesker won't get nerfed again (wishfull thinking maybe) and that the Freddy/Myers changes won't be a repeat of Twins rework (almost universally hated and unhealthy, got almost entirely reverted).
I don't "play a single side", this applies to both "sides" and I play both sides (although I stay away from SoloQ since Finisher Mori).
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Well, guess that's that. Roadmap confirmed.
He's getting changed soon, likely nerfed (or at the very least his Bat form is getting thrown in the bin), you won. Congrats on reducing Killer variety again.
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He's already on the roadmap for changes, likely nerfs, the goal of this thread is already achieved.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829015#Comment_3829015
Like I said earlier, apparently you didn't get my meaning/didn't read the full thing: tunnelling and camping are issues of their own, the solution
That comment was responding to a specific idea Smurf was presenting and my critique was adequate.
If that was your idea, then the idea is just bad, once survivors find out how to disable my Mori they will do everything they can to do it and it will be your system that gets in my way, of having a victory ending in the game I won.
In much the same way Survivor get to tea-bag by the exit gates. Survivors really need to take a break!the solution I'm proposing is an attempt to incentivize keeping the game rolling rather than encouraging almost every trials ending in an unskippable 4-minute cutscene that everybody is bored of by now.
So what? its not the same person always ending up in Mori: the chance of which is 8.75% in every game.
Also you don't have to overexaggerate, no Mori cutscene is 4min long. Its 10 seconds.8.75% chance that the ending of my game will be 5 seconds longer than normal hook sacrifice animations.
I you want to talk about wasting time, Survivors who wait at exit games are far bigger problem than this. jeez.Because I'll be frank, I hear a few people asking for basekit Unbreakable, and it scares me. It would fix this singular problem but create dozens more in the process. You want a "solution" that would actually hinder getting the 4k?
I would welcome such a solution, it can fix not only this problem but many more, and I dont fear there will be more problems along the way, I suspected the anti-face-camp system with push people to use lazy proxy camping strategies and it did, It didnt mean I had to fear progress. Do you fear progress like that?
Besides Basekit Unbreakable solves 2 other problems than Greedy 4K behaviour, it solves early game slugging and team-mates who leave you to die aswell.(Ok so since I never targeted anything else than 4k slugging in my solution, my bad if I thought it was directed at me I was beffudled XD).
How could the Survivors "disable" your Mori? It's entirely in the Killer's hands. If you're worried about Plot Twist, don't be. BHVR has proven that they can make Plot Twist not count as "health state loss" in certain cases (to prevent Plot Twist from removing STBFL stacks for example) so it wouldn't be hard to exclude Plot Twist from the actual downed status effect caused by a Killer.
If the Killer slugs for the 4k (3rd survivor dies while last has been twiddling their thumbs on the ground) then all that happens is that you don't get the basekit Mori, the Survivor doesn't get up/get a health state/instantly gets Hatch because you slugged, you can still go back and hook them normally for the 4k even though it's boring and has a risk of losing the slug and ending in a bleedout. The Killer is not punished for it, just like it wasn't for the entirety of the game's lifespan to this day.
If the Killer doesn't slug for the 4k (second-to-last Survivor dies by sacrifice/Mori/escapes while leaving the last one behind while the 4th is injured or healthy) then if the Killer wins the final race then they get a "thumbs up" and a nice animation without needing a perk.
People aren't saying the Mori animation is wasting time, from an objective viewpoint it's sometimes faster than picking up+hooking, people are sick of spending minutes on the ground doing nothing while the Killer frantically goes after the last one for the sake of an animation. I don't mind the Mori animation itself, in fact most people never minded them before, but now it became a common reward for dragging a match on and denying one person the option to do anything. The "cutscene" isn't the animation, it's the time spent on the ground.
And regardless of what any of us hopes/wants, it did get worse than before. Too many threads in too little time speaking up about it (keep in mind those threads aren't always against the Mori animations themselves, they are annoyed at endgame-slugging becoming more common because it's being encouraged).
Also, basekit Unbreakable was a total disaster in that PTB. SWF teams would torment Killers by having sabo builds (there's literally a video called "1 hour of abusing basekit Unbreakable" on Youtube) and forcing lose-lose situations by going down under a pallet with Power Struggle/Buckle Up while a teammate was hovering (slug the Survivor to go after saver? Survivor gets up for free after around 30s and runs away or is able to use Power Struggle to deny the pick-up anyway. Pick the Survivor up immediately? There's a Survivor just waiting to drop that pallet or blind you. It was disgusting.). And Killers would relentlessly tunnel one Survivor and then slug non-stop in the hopes of getting that animation or when they end up in a 2v1 they would alternate between downing both Survivors dozens of times (since they would get up by the time the other got downed most of the time, especially against weaker/slower/M1 Killers) until one bled out or both got downed, the games would end with more bleedout than normal it was so bad. Almost the entire playerbase united against it and it was scrapped (both "sides" agreeing is rare enough that it gave an idea of how disgusting it was). BHVR rightfully wants to narrow the gap between SWF and SoloQ, this took the gap and turned it into an ocean. This isn't progress, it's one step forward fifteen steps back.
I don't want a system that completely removes strategies and ways to win for anyone, I want something that encourages healthy and more dynamic games without impeding on those wanting to simply win.
And if it's too much to ask, then putting in a "speed-bleedout" button in certain situations (slugged in a 2v1, whole team-slug etc.) to speed things up a bit and avoid possible bming would be appreciated.
While Survivors being annoying at exit gates is also annoying, that's yet another thing that requires it's own looking-at.
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828586#Comment_3828586
I think what Skillful is indicating is that the finisher mori rewards any playstyle used to get the finisher mori. And that definitely can encourage playstyles that deny some players a chance to play the game normally or encourage playstyles that are otherwise hostile to players in an unhealthy way. That would be a good thing even if people weren't seeing more tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k in their games now.
It sounds like they want to use the finisher mori as a tool to help encourage positive playstyles (by discouraging things like tunneling, camping, slugging for 4k, etc.) and rewarding the killer with the mori only if they aren't engaging in those more negative practices.
If that's what's intended, I think it would be a step in the right direction. I'd personally also like to see an option for the moried survivor to skip the animation, but that's a separate discussion :D
And it's clear that there are certainly some people who don't like the mori, its impact on the game, or both. Some of the streamers I watch also complained about these things recently (not to say streamers are the authority on it, but they're an extra opinion). I say this latter part to kind of answer your last comment and indicate that there are people who see this update as a problem.
While you understood my sentiment @smurf, fixing tunnelling and camping aren't the goal with making the Finisher Mori healthy, those issues need fixing of their own. While the system affects tunnelling a tad bit (more reward for 4k at any cost), the Finisher Mori doesn't affect camping much.
My aim is to significantly reduce slugging for the 4k without punishing those who want to play for the 4k BUT rewarding those who take that extra risk with a cool cutscene and extra BP. The stick doesn't work alone, the carrot is also necessary. The aim is to end the game on a healthy and dynamic note rather than a slog that people just want to skip.
You can even explain it via lore: By giving a chance at Hatch (in which the Killer has an advantage by default due to superior map traversal than Survivors) they give the last Survivor a last burst of hope that the Entity can devour and, should the Survivor lose and the Entity feeds, it grants the Killer the ability to finish by their own hand and rewards them for the dessert.
@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828595#Comment_3828595
Honestly that sounds terrible, so all a survivor have to do is run in front of me to block another survivors, if I hit them it counts as tunneling and then I don't get a free mori as a cool way of ending the game, the game that I won btw.
Like I said earlier, apparently you didn't get my meaning/didn't read the full thing: tunnelling and camping are issues of their own, the solution I'm proposing is an attempt to incentivize keeping the game rolling rather than encouraging almost every trials ending in an unskippable 4-minute cutscene that everybody is bored of by now (literally just in the last 24 hours there's like 3 threads speaking out against slugging for the 4k being rampant that popped up, and one of them even put forth a very similar solution to my own, I even see more and more people asking for a way to skip seeing the Mori animation since they are sick of them and especially waiting for them).
The Killer can tunnel and slug all they want for their 4k win if it's their end-goal no matter the means or if you have adept/challenges/achievements, nothing would prevent or even hinder that with this solution, Survivors taking hits for each other won't save them from being downed and killed, as long as there's more than one Survivor standing then the game is effectively unchanged but you'll get a "thumbs up" from the game if you engage in a full trial and end it in a dynamic final race rather than looking over the whole map searching for a slug/hiding Survivor for 4 minutes (that you might not even find and end up having wasted all that time for nothing) just for the sake of an animation.
Because I'll be frank, I hear a few people asking for basekit Unbreakable, and it scares me. It would fix this singular problem but create dozens more in the process. You want a "solution" that would actually hinder getting the 4k? That's a prime example.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828236#Comment_3828236
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828237#Comment_3828237
It would actually be incredibly easy to show, compare the average 4K rates (games that end in 4K) before and after the patch, if the number of 4Ks is incredibly higher than average fluxuations then yes, its a problem. But if the rates of 4Ks is barely changing from the norm, then this is a case believing falsely that these changes ,have caused these 4Ks, when its can be clearly seen they the 4K rate has not moved.
Do you accept these charges? Cause heck, I would not accept this system being removed for a reason without proof.
Since you missed it in my post and assumed I want the system removed with no argument or compromise, I'll rephrase;
I don't want the system gone, I want it healthy. If the Finisher Mori (which would grant bonus bp) was only available if the 4th Survivor was standing (on their feet, not just alive) when the 3rd Survivor dies by sacrifice or Killer-specific Mori (no bleedout) then it would become a healthy thing for the game.
People that want to 4k at all costs wouldn't be punished and slugging for the 4k would still exist but wouldn't be encouraged. It would become a reward for winning the Hatch gamble/not playing in a boring manner/challenging themselves or simply playing for fun. Instead of incentivizing boring gameplay it would incentivize dynamic gameplay and full games with less time-wasting.
Furthermore, the point isn't that Killers 4k more, it's how they do it. There will likely be only a slight increase in 4ks (or just cases where the Killer slugs someone in endgame before forcing the other Survivors out to get a free Mori, no need to 4k) but just by reading the forums (Reddit, this forum etc.) it's already obvious that it got worse from before even though it was already very common. Hell, for some people they are just sick of the animations since they see them often now.
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@Emeal said:
I can see it could become a problem for some Killers if you dangle a cool animation for 4K, they will play hard to get it.
But can we really demonstrate that those players do it more now than before? Are you sure those players would not just 4K anyway?Furthermore how come you you are tired of the Mori animation, when the other animation you would before see if the Killer carrying you to the hook? it literally takes about the same time.
For a simple reason;
Someone that sees the Finisher Mori is very likely to have twiddled their thumbs for several minutes already while waiting for the other to die (or in case of SWF, also making the others wait on the Killer to end it), they also likely end up in a similar situation often.
For "proof" that it happens more than before, just look at the forum threads, there's been more complains about slugging for the 4k since the Finisher Mori than before, hell there are threads where people are just sick of Mori animations altogether.
The worst part is that there would be a simple way to make it healthier: The Finisher Mori only becomes available if the last Survivor is on their feet when the second-to-last Survivor dies by sacrifice or special Killer Mori (to avoid Killers simply slugging than waiting on the bleedout to down the last one after 4 minutes of wasted time) and doing so would reward extra BP (it could also become a part of tome challenges for extra variety). This wouldn't impede on people going for the 4k at all cost but would reward those that take that endgame gamble/don't play in an unfun way/challenge themselves/play for fun first.
It's likely that Mori dlc/shop is planned (alongside future Visceral skins with unique Mori) and adding more Mori animations would make it even worse.
Myself and others predicted it when it was announced: The Finisher Mori system will only increase 4k/endgame slugging and make people despise Mori animations instead of liking (or at least tolerating) them.
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The system itself is, while killing off a few perks and making Killers on the weaker end of the spectrum more stressful to play, not a bad idea per-say, no one wants to spend 30+ minutes in a stalemate.
However it is in effect the whole game which means it's easy to make it backfire unintentionally, a SWF can even weaponize it against certain Killers.
I think it should only kick-in when there is 2 gens left (to account for nonsensical map rng that can create ridiculous 4-gen setups on certain maps) so that the "Anti-3-gen" system is ACTUALLY and Anti-3-gen system and not just an Anti-regression system.