Skillfulstone
Skillfulstone
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Damn, gen regression (and every gen-kick and regression perks) was limited, the best chase perk for weaker/M1 Killers was gutted and turned into even more of a tunnelling tool, the main (and free) anti-heal perk for M1 Killers is getting nuked and now even gen block is an issue.
Old Eruption was an issue since Survivors couldn't do anything (and imo Eruption should simply have been reworked to replace the Incap with a 10 sec gen-block, the aura-reading is worthless on Killers without mobility unless they slug) but nothing prevents Survivors from either doing something else (like maybe heal or go for the save) or simply going to another gen if DMS procs, Grim Embrace is only 12 seconds if you let go before the hook, and spreading gen progress will encourage the Killer to kick more which will make the last gen easier since they might not have all of their regression events on at least one of the gen by that point.
And anyway, Ultimate Weapon is on the chopping block soon and DMS is getting looked at, chances are that this combo will go away soon enough. Funnily enough FTP + Buckle Up is still not acknowledged (as far as I know) as an issue.
Edit: apparently the devs acknowledged FTP + Buckle Up, I stand corrected about that.
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Well, apparently it seems that the Obsession will play generator simulator since unless there's a doorway or some other narrow path then the Killer will not interact with them at all.
Splendid change, the strongest Killers don't care and the weaker Killers who used it in chase can now only use it to tunnel more efficiently.
Should have just made the perk deactivate when close to hooked Survivors and not work on basekit BT. Tunneling/camping is discouraged, strong Killers don't care, weaker/M1 Killers keep a good chase perks, everybody wins.
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The perk didn't even need a true nerf to begin with. Most people heard Otz say "STBFL" and "problematic" in the same sentence and started to complain about one of the handful of chase perks that weaker/M1 Killers can use effectively but that the powerhouses can't really use as well.
The perk was powerful when tunnelling/camping it's true, but it was also one of the few things that made M1 Killers playable at a higher level. Instead of only fixing the issue (it's potential in camping/tunneling situations) they completely killed the perk in every aspects EXCEPT it's potential in camping and tunnelling.
Literally all they had to do was deactivate the perk when too close to a hooked Survivor and make the perk not work when hitting basekit BT. That's all, M1 Killers keep a good chase perk, strong Killers don't really care, tunnelling and camping is not encouraged anymore, everybody wins.
The perk is literally now only good as a tunnelling tool, a Killer with this perk will actively ignore the Obsession (since there's no longer synergy with some powers to avoid stack loss) and unless the Obsession blocks a doorway or some other narrow path then it'll be generator simulator for them since the Killer will not interact with them.
Now that I think about it, Pig was a common STBFL user due to her weak chase and M2, so they actually did nerf Pig indirectly XD
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Waiting for the Auric Cells reward to be fixed before unlocking the pass, but it is indeed interesting.
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@Hex_Ignored said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639318#Comment_3639318
that's like saying removing infinites was as survivor nerf. Removing unhealthy playstyles and mechanics should not be seen as a nerf that deserves a compensation buff
To be fair, 3-genning purposefully from the start is unhealthy (especially with specific Killers).
The Survivors 3-genning themselves despite the Killer's intentions is not on the Killer and should be a difficult situation as doing gens strategically is part of the Survivor's gameplay. Removing 3-gens in any sort of way will always be an indirect nerf to Killers and buff to Survivors as it essentially mitigates the gravity of Survivor's mistakes and makes weaker/M1 Killers (those who need regression more) harder and more stressful to play especially against decent players since they now have a limited ability to slow gens on top of having overall longer chases.
The current iteration of their "Anti-3-gen solution" is deeply flawed since it actively discourages the use of a lot of perks in fear of running out of kicks/regression events too soon (Nowhere To Hide, Trail of Torment, Surveillance, Machine Learning etc.) and having one of the last gens be close to impossible to regress. This is a common occurrence if the Killer doesn't absolutely stomp the Survivors. In most of my games (where I don't go full boring meta tryhard and actually try to have fun), if I dare kick gens in-between chases too much, I end up against at least 3 Survivors alive and at least one of the last 3 gens halfway (or more if I dared bring Surge or any kick perks) through it's regression events, which means I have to prioritize defending this gen since I won't be able to regress it for long, making the last gen (which is supposed to be the point where the Killer is at their strongest) harder to manage than the other 4.
The system could be decent IF it didn't activate until the last gen (maybe reduce the events to 6-7 to compensate) since it wouldn't limit perk diversity and wouldn't put as much pressure on weaker Killers especially if Survivors try to do specific (usually center) gens (and is the Killer supposed to NOT kick gens in-between chases? Especially if Survivors keep going back to it). A Killer that chased the whole trial will likely have to deal with a Survivor team that's in rough shape compared to a Killer that never left their zone, as such a regression limit will be slightly less of a hassle for the Killer since the Survivors won't have as much leeway and perk diversity will suffer less.
Similarly to their ill-thought-out STBFL nerf, the powerhouses (Blight, Nurse) don't care about this system (except for the new Grim Embrace, literally nothing has changed for those two, if anything this update was an indirect buff to Blight and Nurse since they never kicked gens much to begin with) because regression was never needed (Pain Res and Pop were MORE than enough) but everyone else is put under more constraints and has less choices. I don't want to face the same 5 Killers and I don't want to be forced to play the same handful of Killers to compete against good Survivors.
Infinites needed to go and the AFC was a good idea, the gen system is flawed as it is now and I can't call it a buff for anyone else than Blight and Nurse.
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Basekit Billy is perfect.
However (with the right add-ons) his missed cooldown is almost non-existant, especially in Overdrive, which is similar to what got him gutted the first time.
Scott Jund recently made a video on it, it's a good watch.
The first time he was demolished, it was mostly because of insta-saw add-ons, basekit Billy was fine.
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The STBFL change from PTB to live was perhaps rushed.
They did fix the "lose a health state by any means" but basically made every single direct Killer interactions remove stacks, damage or not.
Deathslinger loses 4 stacks if he hits a reeled-in Survivor since harpooning a Survivor (just hitting them with the harpoon, no damage) takes 2 stacks and then the M1 takes another 2.
STBFL is just crap now, instead of simply deactivating near hooked Survivors they just went the easy route of gutting the perk and somehow managed to make it even worse than expected.
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Watch them literally just remove the BP bonus from Distressing.
Ya know, just to remove 1 of the three people using the perk...
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All those bugs due to a rushed nerf.
We know they can do distance-based effect correctly. If they had just made the perk deactivate near hooks all those issues wouldn't exist and the perk wouldn't actively encourage tunnelling.
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The gens take longer (or at least feel like they do) because regression was demolished and all gen-kick perk, even if not regression-based (Nowhere to Hide, Trail of Torment, Surveillance etc.), were made a liability. Not to mention STBFL, the best chase perk for weaker/M1 Killers (that the best Killers couldn't really use), has been reduced to a tunnelling perk.
Now the meta has turned to gen-block & specific regression perks (specifically Pop and Pain Res due to them having the strongest regression per activation), new Grim Embrace and/or DM are very common now due to a near-guaranteed 25 second slowdown (give or take a few seconds depending on Killer). Literally all they have to do to make the anti-3-gen system bearable is make it only activate when there is 1 gen left because as it is it only reduces variety.
Update's been out for less than 24 hours and I honestly think more than half the Killers I've faced had at least 3 of those perks and the closest thing to an M1 Killer I've seen was a Tombstone Myers (not exactly standard M1). Somehow I haven't seen a single Onryo despite her getting a rework (granted it was a serious nerf from PTB but still).
Ironically enough, due to how the "counterplay" for Grim Embrace + DMS works, this kinda reminds me of the OverBrine Eruption era where SWF teams could call out when to let go of the gen but SoloQ spent half the game Incapacitated. SWF teams can call out when to let go so the gen is only blocked for 12 seconds instead of more than 20 but SoloQ can only guess.
Fun Fact: Potential Energy can kinda be used to "gen-tap" like before. when enough tokens are accumulated a Survivor can instantly stop the regression by using the energy in the Killer's face. This can be used to force the Killer to use another one of their 8 regression events to regress the gen again if it has high enough progress.
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First of all, go back up to a 5 seconds stun. 3 seconds, unless a god window/pallet is right there, is not enough (not to mention the Survivor loses around 1 second from the animation of getting off the Killer's shoulder, making around 2 seconds of distance instead of the advertised 3).
Second, the perk deactivating in endgame is perfect and should stay that way, honestly if BHVR had just done that then most of DS threads probably wouldn't exist.
Third, people might say "But what about Nurse, Blight or some other Killers with the mean to either catch up instantly or down the Survivor with a ranged attack almost immediately? Wouldn't that make it useless?" and they would be right. Which is why the Killer's power, upon a successful DS, should be unusable for 5 seconds after the stun has ended (this would prevent the perk from being exclusively good against M1 Killers and would counter tunnelling across the board instead of yet again being another thing circumvented by Nurse and Blight) this would grant some distance to reach a pallet/window even against the strongest Killers.
With the new "Anti-3-gen" system and the utter gutting of STBFL, tunnelling and camping will be even worse until either adjustments are made (anti-3-gen only activates during the last gen but only has 5-6 regression events and STBFL nerf reverted and instead deactivates near hooked Survivors and doesn't trigger on basekit BT hits, much better and healthier for perk variety and Killer viability outside of bottom mmr) or a solid counter is brought on the table. As of now there is none and the near-future is filled with weaker Killers using STBFL to camp and aggressively tunnel (as the perk will only shine in camping/tunnelling after the change) and stronger Killers not bothering with a perk they didn't need anyway and replacing regression with gen-block.
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Déjà-vu literally saves 4 seconds of a gen. Most of it's effect is because gold progress bar = dopamine. It was a useless junk perk that didn't even qualify as a meme perk. At least now the constant info it provides help break 3-gens before they happen.
Second, the "Anti-3-gen" system is flawed in the first place and should have less regression events BUT only work during the last gen. As it is all it does is lower perk variety and viability.
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Items and add-ons for Survivors can be acquired without ever using bloodpoints. Either through chests or through Dramaturgy (or just taking it from a dead teammate) the Survivors can gain items (and add-ons if bringing Ace In the Hole) by simply playing. Even if the item is depleted, escaping with it will keep it.
Killers cannot gain add-ons by just playing, they must spend bloodpoints and due to it's random nature it can take a lot of bp to get the add-ons you want. Unless a Black Ward is brought then 4k or 0k the add-ons are lost (and even then, if the server crashes there's a chance to lose the add-ons anyway).
Franklin's is only useful if you can hit Survivors before they use their items and their whole plan revolved around that item. It doesn't make you better in chase, it provides no info, it doesn't provide slowdown, it doesn't even grant a bp bonus. Unless the Killer is feeling spiteful and you brought 4 beamers/toolboxes then Franklin's has essentially no guaranteed value. Franklin's also takes 25% of the Killer's build just to deal with items.
It's annoying, sure, but it's hardly game-breaking or even very powerful.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
Nah i don't.
Sadako nerfed to ground for no reason.
Alan Wake perks are still garbage.
STBFL is still so good for tunnelling and camping, main issue did not fixed.
Quick Gambit is still terrible perk, core issue not fixed.
They gave another busted add-on to Blight for no reason. You were going to nerf him, not BUFF. But Blight is gold boy after all i guess.
The only W is Billy. Sadly this is one of the worst updates.
Pretty much.
Add to that how ill-thought-out the "Anti-3-gen" system is and any kind of excitement went out the window. Literally didn't touch the problematic parts of STBFL and only left it's camping/tunneling power while weakening everything else.
If they make the new system only work on last gen (with like 5-6 regression events to compensate) and revert the STBFL nerf while making it deactivate near hooked Survivors then I'll be hyped again.
The other changes are nice (or at least not horrible) but they are not enough to save the update nor the loss of perk/Killer variety and viability. I'm pretty sure that Blight will get a 2nd add-on pass eventually and Sadako will get buffed.
The shiny new Lights Out mode will temporarily distract people from the update.
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@GeneralV said:
The Lunar event usually has its own.
But honestly they should just make them all available and let us choose the one we want.
If I recall what one of the devs/lead techs (or was it a product manager?) said once in a Q&A stream...
They said that they want to keep backgrounds tied to current events in the name of keeping the game "alive" and dynamic.
Not those exact words but it was the gist of it.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3636602#Comment_3636602
Yeah, i won't install PTBs anymore. All issues we pointed just ignored. If devs don't care abaout our feedbacks, why we are even testing things.
We told them Sadako's counterplay is so easy, they made it even easier and nerfed her. "Shocked face"
A lot people pointed DMS is problem with GE. But ignored again.
Alan Wake perks are so bad, so many people came with good buff suggestions. Ignored.
I just give up, devs are doing whatever they want. So there is no reason to suggest changes, community have zero effect.
I'm roughly on the same boat. Dozens of time I said (and heard/read from other people) that the STBFL nerf was ill-thought-out and would just encourage tunnelling and camping more, basically ignored. Sure the Survivors can't remotely remove stacks but the perk still lost most of it's appeal and synergy with weaker/M1 Killers and is at it's strongest when camping/tunneling.
Same for the "Anti-3-gen" system. Every kick perks, even those not meant for regression (Nowhere To Hide, Surveillance, Machine Learning, Dragon's Grip, Trail of Torment) is now a liability and limited ressource that will reduce your ability to slowdown when the Survivors inevitably 3-gen themselves. Too many uses and the last gen will be harder to defend. Add regression perks to that and perk variety just took a dive. The system would be decent if it only kicked-in during the last gen (maybe reduce the events to like 5-6 to compensate) but it affects the whole trial and adds yet another thing for the Killer to keep in mind.
For the little amount of time the system was working in PTB, myself and others talked about it and nothing came of it. We literally got told that counting Nowhere To Hide/gen-kick perk uses was not a bad thing! It's not even a perk that's guaranteed to get value.
I really hope that, after console-only players (the majority of the playerbase) speak up then things will get fixed later but it's still frustrating to not even see STBFL in the watch-list.
I honestly think that most of the changes will come when the whole playerbase will have dealt with those changes for a while. Good or bad, only time will tell.
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Asking for more nerfs, endgame perks at that, after every gen-kick (even those that aren't made for regression) and/or regression perks (outside of Pop and Pain Res) and the best chase perk for weaker/M1 Killers were gutted is just baffling.
That combination of perks is basically only a victory if there's only one Survivor left and the Hatch was closed and both perks are at full power. Even with only one or without those perks there's almost no chance of escape unless the Survivor brought Sole Survivor & Wake up to vaporize the gates and the gates were far away from each other.
The Killer is essentially working with 2 perks during the rest of the game (most Killers can't really deal with good teams without a full build) and if even just 2 Survivors are left then it's still not a sure victory.
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@Volcz said:
Aven already said it but this shouldn't be on the watch list. It should be addressed immediately b/c people are going to use the hell out of it and make matches even more unbearable.
Hopefully the nerf comes quick.
If people use it too much it'll go on the chopping block even quicker.
Also, the majority of the playerbase is made out of console players (and they don't have access to PTB unless they keep a second account). They are probably just waiting for more "universal" feedback before deciding how quickly to deal with it.
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@Smoe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/403613/30-days-no-knight
They already confirmed that Knight and Nowhere to Hide would return on the 30th along with the midchapter.
A shame that Nowhere To Hide, with the ill-thought out new gen system, will be a shadow of it's past self.
Why waste kicks for info you might not even get if Survivors are far away or using some kind of aura-reading defense?
Perk got killswitched for a month, came back after it's been indirectly massively nerfed.
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While most of what you're saying has merit, the part where Killers could take over if one DCs sounds off.
Most of the time, a Killer DCs because they are either severely outmatched, being trolled (both often come together) or are seconds away from losing (all Survivors are waiting at exit gates to click/teabag and the Killer just DCs to deny any potenti gate survival challenges and to skip the 2 minute wait time).
Having someone take over during those instance would feel pretty bad. Imagine waiting to start a game and then ending up in a game that ends seconds later or ending up against a God-tier 4-man way out of your league. Additional points or not, this wouldn't feel good.
Not to mention the mechanic would have part of it's efficiency paywalled since (I assume) a player couldn't join a game as a Killer they don't own/using perks they don't own. Which also greatly reduces the mechanic's potential for new players and/or players that aren't spending much on the game.
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With it not being on the roadmap (at least for the first half of the year) then I'm not sure it's going to be anytime soon, and with STBFL's nonsensical nerf then the combo essentially lost one of the few soft-counters it had.
Also neither perks need nerfs per-say, it's just their synergy that has to go. Literally all they have to do it remove the fact that FTP triggers Buckle Up (or at least not within a certain period of time to prevent downed Survivors from instantly getting up with Endurance while the Killer is still in recovery).
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First look: Ok...so a thirst trap Predator Rip-off? At least it can't be worse than Knight right? Drones seems like she'll be some kind of monitoring Killer. Music is meh but honestly the best music are mostly for RE Killers anyway.
After: What on Earth did they think when making this and how did this power make it past the drawing board?! This is so much worse than Knight somehow!
Yep, sums it up.
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The most hysterical thing is that they nerf Onryo to mitigate tunnelling BUT have no issues gutting STBFL by making the perk at it's best and encouraging tunnelling even more than before.
I heard this theory that the Devs do test the new features during the PTB themselves and that whatever changes at release is based mostly on their tests and further (more complex and precise) changes down the line are based on actual feedback from the community after people had time to get exposed to the changes for longer.
Let's also not forget that, unless console players keep/have access to two different accounts, then console players don't have access to the PTB and console players are the majority of the playerbase so it kinda makes sense in a sad way.
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@VomitMommy said:
It's funny they are worried about tunneling, while this change basically force you to tunnel, because if you let that survivor recover, most of their condemn is just gone...
What's even funnier is that they nerf something to prevent tunnelling yet gut STBFL's chase potential and synergy with weaker Killers to turn it into a perk that's only at it's strongest when tunnelling and camping XD
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BHVR unnecessarily nerfs STBFL by weakening it's chase power and synergy with weaker Killers while at the same time making tunnelling/camping more appealing while completely ignoring the obsession (unless the obsession blocks a doorway or smt then Killers will just completely ignore one player which is boring).
Announces Sloppy Butcher and Mangled nerfs, things that were mostly used by weaker Killers for a bit of pressure with M1.
Puts a hard-limit on gen-regression, making many perks simply no longer worth using and punishing regular Killers for ending up in a 3-gen that the Survivors created.
As a result, Killer variety and perk viability/variety goes down and slowdown methods change to the next thing.
If anybody is surprised then they shouldn't be. The most powerful Killers don't care about those changes because they never needed regression or STBFL because they have short chases and/or enough speed to interrupt repairs efficiently. All this does is make life more miserable for weaker/M1 Killers and SoloQ.
Hopefully the future makes themm reconsider many of those changes.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634853#Comment_3634853
I don't even think STBFL was a problem when it came to tunneling or camping. With the anti-facecamp system, the killer is forced to have distance from the hook meaning it's possible for survivors to get a rescue before the killer can hit them with a M1.
Tunneling isn't a real issue given DBD is a 1v4 asymm.
The anti-facecamping system has a range of 16m, it sounds like a lot but it's less than 5 seconds for a 4,6m Killer without mobility (those with mobility can close the distance in less than 3 seconds and projectile Killers don't care).
When a Survivor enters that 16m, the Killer can enter that range without fear of the system doing anything.
In any open maps (which is almost every map) the Killer can easily stay just outside 16m and have a clear view of the hook (which is what most Killers do when they are on the backfoot or just feeling like it), which means the moment a Survivor is spotted going for the unhook they go right back to hook to either force a trade or tunnel.
With STBFL, attacking non-obsession Survivors off the hook was not only powerful but encouraged because the perk works on the Basekit BT hit which means tunneling is even more efficient as not only can you force a trade but the unhooked Survivor can't get very far.
Instead of keeping the perk strong but limiting it's power in camping/tunneling they just double-nerfed the perk by removing synergy with some powers and weakening it's chase potential that weak/M1 Killers used but that the powerhouses (Nurse, Blight) can't really use that much.
Also I had to re-read your comment a few times because did you really say there's no tunneling problem because it's an assym?!
By it's very assymetrical design, Survivors are at a massive disadvantage when they lose one person quickly. Tunneling one Survivor as quick as possible is literally the easiest way to win as Killer since one less Survivor equals one less people on gens and available to do saves, it's the strongest form of slowdown and utterly boring and unfun for the player that spent more time in lobby than playing the game. Tunneling is probably the most complained-about thing in this game.
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@Beatricks said:
So, one of the most obnoxious and unhealthiest killers is getting nerfed? I would say rare BHVR double you, but after all the salt they are going to buff her condemned back to the point that people will DC against her more often than SM, so that's a wash.
And I see STBFL is getting buffed to its tunneling potential.
Niiiice.
Yeah...STBFL wasn't even a problem outside of it's camping and tunnelling potential and they nerfed everything but that.
Literally all it needed was to deactivate near hooked Survivors and not work on the basekit BT. That's it, weak Killers keep a good chase perk, strong Killers don't care, tunnelling and camping is less efficient, everybody wins.
So many people asked for something like this...
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Looks at STBFL changes, sees that basically nothing problematic was really fixed and that the perk is still just as powerful as before when camping/tunnelling but is weaker in chase and lost synergy with weaker Killers.
Well, rip to Trapper and other weaker/slower M1 Killers that used STBFL to compensate for their weaker chases, now STBFL is literally only good for camping and tunnelling since there's no way to preserve stacks alongside being weaker in chase, SWF teams will be able to counter STBFL with more ease than before and it will do little for SoloQ.
Looks at "Anti-3-gen system", nothing is said except that it's being watched.
Assuming nothing is changed, well rip Trail of Torment, Nowhere To Hide, Surveillance, Machine Learning and gen regression outside of Pop and Pain Res. Good Survivors will be able to 3-gen themselves and have at least one gen that can't be regressed a lot, forcing the Killer to focus defense on that gen even if they didn't mean to 3-gen.
Hopefully the future will smile upon those things and adjustments will be made.
At least the rest is pretty nice, infinite-turn Blight is gone, Hillbilly remained largely untouched from PTB and Quick Gambit is now semi-viable in a SWF in vertical maps.
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@jmwjmw27 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633720#Comment_3633720
Fair enough. I've noticed that when discussions arise about hitting this cap it's mostly surge to blame (and maybe Eruption). I wonder if there is a way that the system can change to account for these. If it's a simple number increase, I'm not sure what the right number would really be. The M1 killer perspective of being limited in what you bring isn't something I'd considered a lot as I usually bring pain res or corrupt instead of gen kick because of how slow it feels to go out of your way to kick gens on M1 killers. That problem certainly isn't getting any better.
That said, what would a solution be? I can't think of any that are simple and would fix this while fixing 3 gen situations. Numbers increase -> same thing if you play out a longer game with surge, imagine that match on "the game" if the survivors had gotten a few more saves. Allowing the killer to kick gens without regression after the cap helps for certain perks, but would confuse new players and wouldn't do anything for eruption/surge which are the main targets.
Maybe the regression events remaining on gens can increase for every survivor you hook. If you kick a gen and get eruption+surge value, that should be 2 events lost (assuming the surge+eruption damage is counted as one), then maybe you can gain 2 events back with a hook state? In that case, the only way that could come to bite you is if the survivors force a long and slow game, but it would be really hard to design a system that can tell who started it.
The "solution" is rather simple: Make the system only work during the last gen (maybe reduce the regression events to like 6 to compensate).
If the mechanic is only in effect during the last generator, it directly addresses the issue without making lots of perks, many of them not even being made to guard/regress gens, less desirable and not affecting perk builds too much. Killers that try to guard a 3-gen from the beginning (the problem we're trying to tackle) can no longer really do it since Survivors can simply do the other gens without pressure. It still removes a bit of depth from the Survivor's gameplay but making it active only during the last gen would at least leave Killer perk diversity less limiting. The Killers that end up in a 3-gen situation despite their intentions will at least have a fighting chance even if all 4 Survivors are still alive (which is not uncommon if no tunnelling was done and Survivors were on gens) since they will have a full set of "regression event" and Survivors will likely be in worst shape if the Killer chased the whole trial instead of staying around the same area which means that purposeful 3-genners will be more punished.
The idea itself has potential, it just can't be active the whole trial. Survivors and Killers need to keep as many viable perks as possible (which is why most perk changes in PTB were great except for STBFL which was a complete missed opportunity and counter-productive change that I hope will get reworked another way) to keep the game interesting and discovering fun combos.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634001#Comment_3634001
Well, i can say, that while playing Pig for 2k hours+ i only used surge. Nothing else. Its more than enough for my playstyle. Ive never been a fan of slowdown (gen blocking). Deadlock is my most disliked killer perk. Most of the best gen regression perks are currently tied to killer progress, so i think its in a good spot right now.
Getting better in chase is something that is mostly tied to experience. The more you try out, the more you know that works. I dont think a guide will solve all problems.
What strats are toxic???
I mean, Surge is a slowdown perk (although one of the ones that promote chases and that the weaker Killers can use better than Nurse and Blight, which is a good thing) and Pig is one of the handful of Killers that have actual built-in slowdown without any perks in her power.
As for "toxic" strats, two come to mind.
1: Knockout slugging without hooking. Extremely effective against SoloQ and beyond boring.
2: Hard-tunnelling. Sure the Killer might lose if Survivors are very efficient but one player will have probably spent more time in lobby than playing the game. It's an extremely common tactic in higher mmr.
They aren't optimal, but they absolutely remove any fun from the game for the people that go against it.
While experience will be key, a few tips never hurt.
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I'm a Nemesis main (although maybe not for long if the gen update and STBFL nerf aren't changed) might change to Wesker or Blight (Birkin skin ftw).
Edit after seeing the Dev update: Welp, goodbye Nemy (alongside M1 Killers in general) and hello Birkin & Wesker.
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@radiantHero23 said:
I don't really know how to help you without more explicit information. What killers do you like to play? Why is the new patch giving you trouble? What problems in chase do you encounter? I would love to give you some advice on how to improve but I need more input.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633193#Comment_3633193
Friend, this is not helpful. If someone asks for help, we should not be like : just slap on slowdown. We should be better.
To be fair, if playing a Killer without mobility then some slowdown is very helpful (almost necessary if against good Survivors) and with regression possibly (I'm still hoping they change the system to only activate during the last gen) being limited and gen-kick perks (even non-regression ones like Nowhere To Hide, Surveillance, Machine Learning and Trail of Torment) being also a limited ressource then the number of available viable gen-related perks is getting smaller.
It's likely that gen-block will replace gen-regression and Survivors will get PTSD flashback from old Eruption. God-tier Killer players that never needed regression outside of Pop and/or Pain Res won't really feel it but the average player (or just regular players using certain perks) will see those regression events go by.
Not every Killer can compete with good Survivors without some form of slowdown (either through playstyle or perks) and not every player will know how to get the most out of chase perks or powers.
I'm gonna miss those friendly Killers that kicked gens infinitely with Survivors to max out Brutality category...
In all seriousness, unless we join forces and write a comprehensive guide on the many chase perks and non-toxic strats, then outside of "get good" and "switch to other slowdown type" it's gonna be a long endeavor.
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@solidhex said:
Nowhere to Hide is a kinda cheap perk anyway and you're not supposed to go around and kick gens in order to find a survivor. If your tracking is so bad that you need this perk to find anyone, it's a you-problem. It's still good enough because even when playing this perk i never regressed a gen 8 times or more. No gen is worth to defend it so excessively and scratchmarks and noises are still a thing. I don't remember that i triggered Surge on any gen more than 8 times. Gens either get done or they get abandoned eventually if you defend them too hard.
When i read those threads i get the impression that people play gen defender instead of killer. You're supposed to defend (and let go) gens tactically, but it's always best to apply pressure via chasing and downing (and eventually killing) while regress gens in between those actions. It shouldn't be your main focus to just regress gens, any halfway decent team will you punish you for that eventually by pushing other gens.
Reaching 8 on one generator (if not 3-genning from the beginning) is indeed not an everygame occurence.
However in the PTB, when using any gen-kick perk (not even regression-based, like Nowhere To Hide, Surveillance, Machine Learning, Dragon's Grip and Trail of Torment) then it wasn't rare that, when Survivors inevitably 3-genned themselves, at least one of the gens was at least halfway through it's regression events. A Killer shouldn't have to count every time they use one of those perks because it might make the last gen harder to defend.
Why should the Killer have a tougher endgame because they kicked gens for perk value in-between chases? If the system only kicked-in during the last gen then it would be more fair since a 3-genner (who brought a build for that) who didn't commit to chases and hooks will have to deal with a team in better shape at the end and would burn through their regression events quicker than a Killer playing normally that just ended up in a 3-gen that the Survivors created (which is most 3-gen instances) that will likely have to deal with a weakened team and have chase perks. Sure regression can only go so far but that way regular players would be less punished than 3-genners (which is the goal, and the whole marketing for this idea in the first place was to only affect 3-gen infinite game).
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I mean, if you want to win against decent Survivors then you're going to have to forget about playing nice and chill, get someone out of the game ASAP and forget using any M1 Killer without mobility or insta-down/insta-kill unless you want to lose weight in sweat (if STBFL nerf isn't reworked or reverted then most low-tier Killers won't have the chasing power to compensate for their weaker chases outside of camping and tunnelling situations).
Forget about any regression/kick perks outside of PGTW and/or Pain Res (they offer the best regression per activation and a full regression build will just vaporize your available regression events quickly and create free, impossible-to-regress gens for the Survivors before endgame) and never kick unless Pop is ready to use and the gen is above 50% at least.
If you don't use Pop, then save as most kicks as you can for when the Survivors inevitably 3-gen themselves (since the Killer is now on a timer and Survivors might not need to worry as much as before).
If not using chase perks then consider new Grim Embrace (if not too changed at release) and Deadlock/DMS as replacement for previous perks (time is gen-time and every moment Survivors spend twiddling their thumbs is a moment where you can possibly be in chase worry-free).
Learn the exact distance (16m) where the Anti-Facecamp stops working (doing tests with friends in custom games is the quickest method) and never stray too far from that distance to be able to punish any and all unhooks that you can spot. There is no better slowdown than a dead Survivor.
...Now for less nihilistic options.
Alternatively, become a friendly Killer and farm with the Survivors to get 8 hooks most games and avoid any insults/threats/slurs thrown your way. You don't lose anything (in fact some challenges and getting bp might be easier) and it's not the end of the world if you don't get kills. Memeing can be quite fun.
Or also alternatively, if BHVR reconsiders their system and make the system only kick-in after the 4th gen is done (maybe reduce the charges to 6-7 to compensate) then you can continue playing normally as you do now, just without being able to guard a 3-gen from the start since not chasing and hooking will result in a team of Survivors in good shape at the end while a normal Killer, if the Survivor 3-gen themselves, will be weakened and maybe even down one or two members. This new system would punish 3-genners more than normal players that end up in a 3-gen that the Survivors made and wouldn't invalidate all gen-kick perks including those not made to regress gen, you'll be able to keep using your preferred builds although 3-genning from the start won't really be an option (although nothing of value would be lost, it's one thing when it's on the Survivors but winning by timeout shouldn't be a thing). I really do hope this ends up happening, nothing is wrong with preventing 40+ minute games (in fact it's a good thing) but outside of endgame it's too limiting and forces Killers to keep track of every gen regressed if they don't want to have a harder last gen. The anti-3-gen system should have NO impact on the rest of the game.
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@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632919#Comment_3632919
sorry but how is the 5% a boost to nowhere to hide?
it's a boost to kicking in general, but has no effect on that perk.
Yeah, if the system doesn't get an overhaul (like only activating after the 4th gen is done) then it's pretty much rip to Nowhere To Hide, Surveillance, Machine Learning, Dragon's Grip, Trail of Torment.
5% or not, using those perks (which aren't even aimed at gen regression) are not only a limited ressource but also a possible detriment late-game for non-3-genners.
Like, if I'm using Nowhere To Hide and see a gen that's barely started in-between chases, why would I not kick it on the chance a Survivor is hiding nearby? With this system I might have just completely wasted one of 8 perk uses on that gen if nobody is nearby.
Hell, Eruption alone take 1/4th of the charges (kick and proc) and Surge makes keeping count of regression events a nightmare.
What if a gen you kicked a few times times (or affected with Surge) for perk value during the whole game (something that happen fairly often if Survivors are pressuring specific gens, usually middle gens) ends up being one of the last gens? You're now down multiple charges on at least one gen, limiting your movements since that gen won't be able to regress too many times even if you never intended to 3-gen.
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I wouldn't want any FNAF character as Killer in DBD, but not because I believe it would be bad, quite the contrary.
BHVR has proven that, as far as licensed content go, they are good at making licensed Killers accurate to the source material (as much as possible given DBD's limits and requirements) and making them interesting and unique. Even the weakest licensed Killer (Pig) brought something unique to them and lore-accurate.
The problem is that, for Springtrap/Freddy/any Animatronic to be in the game, their power would have to revolve around frequent and loud jumpscares (since FNAF's "horror" label, let's be honest, comes from the fact that it's 90% jumpscares) and it would be beyond aggravating to deal with. Imagine having your eardrums blasted and screen flashing every few seconds.
Not only would it be an accessibility nightmare but it would also be annoying beyond any other Killer (barring Skull Merchant, she's in her own league) so far. BHVR removed some of the visual flashing from the Doctor's power for a reason.
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Tried it a bunch with friends.
The increase in range does help somewhat when in a SWF that can tell their location to each other.
However it's still pretty map-dependant. On Midwitch or RPD it can make a difference due to the perk working through floors (although Nurse invalidates that if she hears the repairs from below/above) but chasing within Terror Radius range of gens being worked on is still risky in flat, open maps.
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The issue isn't that generators will routinely completely run out of regression events. Completely running out of regression events before the end will be pretty rare.
The issue is that even in normal games in the PTB, almost every time the Survivors manage to keep at least 3 alive until the last gen, one (or more) of the last 3 gens is at least halfway through it's "charges" and so is hard to defend for long even if the Killer never intended to 3-gen in the first place.
It's not just the 3-gen situations that are being mitigated, this also puts a hard-limit on several Killer perks alongside making certain perks a near-detriment while affecting entire trials.
The most obvious example is Eruption (an already average perk after it's nerf) that, for every use of the perk, will take 2 "regression events" which makes the Killer able to apply the perk a measly 4 times before the gen can't regress anymore, which chances are might happen to one or two gens before endgame. Keeping in mind that Eruption is made to be used on multiple generators at once (and so, to kick gens even with low progress in-between chases on the off-chance that they do have progress when you get your next down) the perk literally becomes a potential hazard for endgame.
Also, every single perk that are activated via gen-kick, not even regression-based, now have a hard-limit to their value (Trail of Torment, Nowhere To Hide, Machine Learning, Dragon's Grip, Surveillance, etc.) which honestly makes them pretty bad since most of those perks were already niche but are now so limited that other info perks will get more value. Why use Nowhere to Hide, Surveillance or Trail of Torment mid-game if it might make the endgame harder? Those kind of perks often cause Killers to kick gens very often to use them and now the Killers have to calculate every use of their perk and if it's worth it to even use a perk that takes a "regression event" for the sake of temporary information or stealth.
Nowhere to Hide in particular is simply gutted by this change since it causes Killers to, in case of a hiding Survivor waiting to jump back on the gen, kick gens a lot more often (especially if said gen keeps getting repaired by a hidden Survivor that keeps coming back). But then the gens might get low on "regression events" even before the endgame, limiting Killers even before a 3-gen can create itself. The 3-gen "solution" should only affect the last generator and should have NO impact on the rest of the game.
In small maps, Surge could absolutely chew through your available "regression events" even before endgame if the Killer downs enough people, leaving you with like 4 kicks until the generator might as well have a constantly evolving BNP on it. I did, with bots and then with friends, a few test runs with Surge and Nowhere To Hide/Surveillance on The Game and Midwich so I could see it and in nearly every game at least one of the last gens was nearly depleted (4 or less kicks left), making the last gen very hard to defend even though I hadn't even intended to make a 3-gen.
This also, like most changes, affects weaker/slow/M1 Killers far more than the top-tiers since the mobile/powerful Killers, if the Survivors manage to get this far, won't have any issues patrolling gens quickly without needing to kick often, leading to a further gap between them. How are Killers like Trapper or Nemesis supposed to guard a 3-gen (that the Survivors created) or even just gens in general during the game if Survivors are efficient without kicking often in-between chases? Too many kicks early-on and the end might be even worse.
This mechanic also empowers genrushing as Survivors can effectively no longer 3-gen themselves by carelessly doing gens that are all next to each other. This essentially means that the "3-gen situation" is reversed: Before, the Survivors were in trouble if they were careless and 3-genned themselves as the Killer had less area to patrol and could find them easily, now the Killer is on the clock if the Survivors 3-gen themselves since they have a limited ability to stall gens before the gens can't be stopped anymore. The Survivors can simply do gens very safely (run early at the first sign of the Terror Radius) and slowly without the Killer being able to do anything about it until it is eventually done after a large amount of time.
Basekit BT and EGC were necessary and healthy changes as the consequences of their absence were felt nearly every game. The vast majority of games ending in a 3-gen aren't even because the Killer meant to but because the Survivors did every gens right next to each other in the name of speed (and bad gen spawn). This mechanic essentially erases Survivors's mistakes and punishes Killers for them while limiting Killer's options during the whole game.
While the "obvious" solution would simply be to make gens spawn farther apart (or at least have a minimum distance requirements between them) this mechanic could be used if it only "kicks in" (heh) when the 4th gen is done to truly be an Anti 3-gen mechanic.
If the mechanic is only in effect during the last generator, it directly addresses the issue without making lots of perks, many of them not even being made to guard/regress gens, less desirable and not affecting perk builds too much.
Killers that try to guard a 3-gen from the beginning (the problem we're trying to tackle) can no longer really do it since Survivors can simply do the other gens without pressure. It still removes a bit of depth from the Survivor's gameplay but making it active only during the last gen would at least leave Killer perk diversity less limited. The Killers that end up in a 3-gen situation despite their intentions will at least have a fighting chance even if 3 or more Survivors are still alive since they will have a full set of "regression events" to work with.
Furthermore, Killers that guard 3-gens from the beginning without committing to chases or downs will likely have to deal with a team of Survivors that are in better shape in the end than a Killer that actively chased and downed Survivors the whole trial and ended up in a 3-gen accidentally. The mechanic only activating in the end insures that a Killer that ended up in a 3-gen due to Survivor mistake (or just bad gen spawn, I've been in games where Déjà Vu revealed like 3 different 3-gen setups after doing a revealed gen it was ridiculous) will be less punished by the countermeasure.
Also-Also, choosing god-tier players as examples isn't exactly representative of the average game. Those guys don't need to kick gens pretty often outside of Pop or Pain Res (a combo that is already popular and will be even more popular if this change goes live due to those perks giving the best regression per procs compared to every other regression perks and will be the least regression-event-costly way to get some slowdown. those two alongside new Grim Embrace and Ruin/DMS will likely rise in use) because they can get reliably short chases. The average player, even the above-average player, can't expect quick chases as often and it's not rare for the average Killer to drop chases. We can't balance the game around god-tier players because they do not represent the average player. They are the perfect metric to calculate the maximum potential of a given perk or Killer (which is great) but in this instance they are not really the best examples.
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While the idea is good in theory, there are glaring flaws in the new system.
It's not just the 3-gen situations that are being mitigated, this also puts a hard-limit on several Killer perks alongside making certain perks a near-detriment while affecting entire trials.
The most obvious example is Eruption (an already average perk after it's nerf) that, for every use of the perk, will take 2 "regression events" which makes the Killer able to apply the perk a measly 4 times before the gen can't regress anymore, which chances are might happen to one or two gens before endgame (not only through Eruption alone).
Also, every single perk that are activated via gen-kick, not even regression-based, now have a hard-limit to their value (Trail of Torment, Nowhere To Hide, Machine Learning, Dragon's Grip, Surveillance, etc.) which honestly makes them pretty bad since most of those perks were already niche but are now so limited that other info perks will get more value. Why use Nowhere to Hide or Trail of Torment mid-game if it might make the endgame harder? Those kind of perks often cause Killers to kick gens very often to use them and now the Killers have to calculate every use of their perk and if it's worth it to even use a perk that takes a "regression event" for the sake of temporary information or stealth.
Nowhere to Hide and Surveillance in particular are simply gutted by this change since it causes Killers to, in case of a hiding Survivor waiting to jump back on the gen, kick gens a lot more often (especially if said gen keeps getting repaired by a hidden Survivor that keeps coming back). But then the gens might be low (or even run out) on "regression events" even before the endgame, limiting Killers even before a 3-gen can create itself. The 3-gen "solution" should only affect the last generator and should have NO impact on the rest of the game.
In small maps, Surge could absolutely chew through your available "regression events" even before endgame if the Killer downs enough people, leaving you with like 4 regression events until the generator might as well have a constantly evolving BNP on it. I did, with bots and then with friends (and later in randoms), a few test runs with Surge and Nowhere To Hide/Surveillance (both serve the same purpose and have the same trigger) on The Game, Lérys and Midwich (chose small maps) so I could see it and in nearly every game at least one of the last gens was nearly depleted, making the last gen very hard to defend even though I hadn't even intended to make a 3-gen.
This also, like most changes, affects weaker/slow/M1 Killers far more than the top-tiers since the mobile/powerful Killers, if the Survivors manage to get this far, won't have any issues patrolling gens quickly without needing to kick often, leading to a further gap between them. How are Killers like Trapper or Nemesis supposed to guard a 3-gen (that the Survivors created) or even just gens in general during the game if Survivors are efficient? Too many kicks early-on and the end might be even worse.
This mechanic also empowers genrushing as Survivors can effectively no longer 3-gen themselves by carelessly doing gens that are all next to each other. This essentially means that the "3-gen situation" is reversed: Before, the Survivors were in trouble if they were careless and 3-genned themselves as the Killer had less area to patrol and could find them easily, now the Killer is on the clock if the Survivors 3-gen themselves since they have a limited ability to stall gens before the gens can't be stopped anymore. The Survivors can simply do gens very safely (run early at the first sign of the Terror Radius) and slowly without the Killer being able to do anything about it until it is eventually done after a large amount of time.
Basekit BT and EGC were necessary and healthy changes as the consequences of their absence were felt basically every game. The vast majority of games ending in a 3-gen aren't even because the Killer meant to but because the Survivors did every gens right next to each other in the name of speed. This mechanic essentially erases Survivors's mistakes and punishes Killers for them while limiting Killer's options during the whole game.
While the "obvious" solution would simply be to make gens spawn farther apart (or at least have a minimum distance requirements between them) this mechanic could be used if it only "kicks in" (heh) when the 4th gen is done to truly be an Anti 3-gen mechanic.
If the mechanic is only in effect during the last generator, it directly addresses the issue without making lots of perks, many of them not even being made to guard/regress gens, less desirable and not affecting perk builds too much. Killers that try to guard a 3-gen from the beginning (the problem we're trying to tackle) can no longer really do it since Survivors can simply do the other gens without pressure. It still removes a bit of depth from the Survivor's gameplay but making it active only during the last gen would at least leave Killer perk diversity less limiting. The Killers that end up in a 3-gen situation despite their intentions will at least have a fighting chance even if all 4 Survivors are still alive since they will have a full set of "regression event" and Survivors will likely be in worst shape if the Killer chased the whole trial instead of staying around the same area which means that purposeful 3-genners will be more punished.
The idea itself has potential, it just can't be active the whole trial. Survivors and Killers need to keep as many viable perks as possible (which is why most perk changes in PTB were great except for STBFL which was a complete missed opportunity and counter-productive change that I hope will get reworked another way) to keep the game interesting and discovering fun combos (FTP+Buckle Up is not one of those).
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@WelshTomz said:
Since you need to repair the gen 5% to stop the gen regressing, I feel like having a visual indicator similar to brand new part would be a good idea, which shows you when you can get off the gen safely without it regressing.
This would be helpful because as a survivor it would prevent some awkward situations were u just want to repair the gen 5% when the killer is nearby to stop regression.
This would prevent situations getting off a gen 1 second to early for example, as a QOL update.
So bottom line: easy way to precisely know the minimum repair to do before running away, forcing the Killer to use one of his 8 "regression event" (if the Killer even has all 8 on that gen by the time the Survivors 3-genned themselves) rinse & repeat until the Killer can't do anything?
This whole system is already completely unsuitable and ill-thought-out, if it doesn't get reppelled like the poisonous basekit Unbreakable then at least let's not make it even worse for slow M1 Killers (ya know, the ones who are the most affected since they have to patrol longer and have longer chases?).
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3624119#Comment_3624119
Not really Surge
I use it when I don't plan to kick gens at all...
Maybe, but what are you going to do if Survivors 3-gen themselves and you see a gen but no Survivor? Well kick it of course but most "regression tokens" might have been used before the 3-gen so you can't do anything.
It's not the Killer's fault he can't defend gens and stop them from progressing, the Survivors did gens super quickly and forced him into this situation...
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3624030#Comment_3624030
Nowhere To Hide will still give you lot of value.
Trail of torment was always niche at best, this won't change much.
Machine Learning was always trash.
1: Nowhere To Hide
Imagine this: The Survivors did gens carelessely and are now 3-genned but there's at least 3 alive. Of course the Killer will kick gens often in order to find hiding Survivors (who will of course hide early). However now the Killer is effectively doomed since (if by chance the specific gen wasn't already kicked/regressed before) he no longer has a way to find potentially hiding nearby Survivors except searching manually and wasting precious time. This system essentially inverts the current situation and mitigates the Survivors's mistake.
Before, the Survivors were in trouble if they rushed gens carelessly and 3-genned themselves, the game would go on longer and the Killer, with less distance to cover and patrol, would eventually find someone and might snowball.
With this system, the Killer is on the clock. He can only kick so many times and, if perks like Surge were brought, he might not even be able to kick more than once or twice. Eventually the gens will become impossible to regress and all the Survivors have to do is slowly but surely do the gens until one is done.
Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of 3-gen games don't end in a 3-gen because the Killer meant for it. And even then, weaker M1 Killers had issues defending said 3-gen while mobile/powerful Killers could do so at-will.
2: Trail of Torment
While it's true that kicking the same gen 8 times purely for this perk value is rare, it'll happen eventually in a 3-gen (more often than not caused by Survivors) this perk will make Killers kick a few more times than they normally would, those kicks might be vital during endgame.
Again, this new system mitigates Survivors's mistakes and limits an already niche but decent perk that gave stealth options.
3: Machine Learning
Yeah this perk was always trash. But limiting it even more is akin to kicking a dead horse: it's meaningless, uselessly cruel and just sad.
Side-note: Surge and Eruption are gonna be utter trash if this goes live.
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If this nerf goes live, not only will the perk just vanish into trash-tier but it's not like the Obsession needs a reason to BM and bodyblock the Killer knowing they'll lose stacks whatever they do.
If the nerf goes live, then the perk is dead, plain and simple. It was only really useful for weaker M1 Killers and instead of removing it's camping potential they nuked it's synergy with weaker Killers's powers and add-ons (Trapper can't even use Bloody Coil without losing 2 stacks that the obsession can then do over and over to effectively remove STBFL with 0 imput from the Killer's, not to mention possible zombie hits, claw traps, Guards, acid blood add-on, Plot Twist etc.) and gave Survivors agency over the perk's effectiveness.
This is a horrible nerf, all they had to do was deactivate the perk when too close to a hooked Survivor and not trigger on basekit BT hits. It was a great chase perk for weaker Killers that they had to build up anyway. Combine that with the dreadful 3-gen "solution" (all it accomplishes is making life worse for weaker Killers and nullify Survivor mistakes alongside gutting dozens of Killer perks) and it makes it even worse.
I'm honestly not sure it's worth it to try to win/gain MMR on Survivor or Killer anymore: why end up in a place where you can only use 5 Killers and only face 5 Killers?
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As expected (feared), they effectively gutted the perk by nerfing the wrong thing.
Weak/M1 Killers that used STBFL to compensate now have a gimped perk that forces them to ignore the obsession even if they have an M2 attack.
SWF teams will use this to make the obsession bodyblock to make STBFL obsolete.
Plot Twist can be used to kill 2 stacks and recover.
The only problematic part, it's powerful camping potential at max stacks, was barely touched unless the obsession always goes for saves (again, only a SWF could coordinate that).
Combined with the ill-thought out 3-gen "solution", M1 Killers, outside of bottom MMR you'll be missed (unless you hard-tunnel).
Outside of Billy changes (Onryo is still to be seen and some perk changes were decent) almost the whole update was a trainwreck. Hopefully enough people realize how poisonous some of those ideas are and things are repelled because I honestly don't see M1/slow Killers being playable in high mmr after this.
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I believe the main reason why saves were made easier is because, like most things in the game, it is very ping-reliant.
If you didn't have impeccable ping, flashlight saves were disgustingly hard to pull off pre-change, newcomers in particular just couldn't do it and even experienced players that had the bad luck of ending up in a bad server could hardly manage it.
Background Player does make saves too lenient in the right hands though, maybe just reduce the possible distance a tad.
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@Foempticol said:
I seen that, there's a dude on NA West servers bringing no mither and plot twist just purposely bleeding himself out... Why? What is wrong with people?
If I had to guess, it would be to quickly lower his MMR without giving bp to the Killers (in fact I'm not sure bleedout death contribute to the Killer's MMR like sacrifices do).
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While asking for a perma-killswitch of Dull Merchant would be unfair to those who don't play like that, her very existence with such a design was a detriment to the game. I'm mostly annoyed because Dull Merchant and the players who decided 3-genning for 1 hour was good are almost solely responsible for the upcoming "3-gen solution" which will only hurt normal Killers even more (I think the 3-gen "strat" was truly popularized after Eternal had that accursed Dull Merchant match and dozens of popular content creators covered the whole thing).
Most of the time, the Survivors 3-gen themselves by mistake by doing gens too quickly and safely (leading to gens close to each others being done in a row instead of spread out) and the Killer didn't intend to end the game in a 3-gen.
Weaker Killers can use this mistake to make a possible comeback. It's the same principle as a Killer making the mistake of overcommiting to a chase in an unfavorable location/against a more experienced player and losing 2-5 gens in the process. Mistakes shouldn't be prevented, it adds depth to the game.
According to the AMA, the "solution" will revolve around the Killer's ability to kick gens (likely some limit after a set condition or time is met) which will effectively punish Killers for Survivors's mistakes. It's going to be very easy to genrush on maps that are "divided": just do every gens on one side since the 3-gen at the end will be mitigated anyway.
I mean, on the plus side at least we won't see many Killers being knowingly obnoxious from the start as much? It won't change much for new SM since she can't really scan gens anymore and is mostly just impossible to loop normally. Weaker (slow/M1) Killers are gonna take another hit and become less common outside of low MMR though, especially if Sloppy and STBFL get significantly nerfed.
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@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622045#Comment_3622045
But if they KNOW they have no realistic way of winning then they're probably still gonna just hide. Getting rid of hatch isn't going to stop people just hiding for ages.
Heck, even if you kill one of them and there's only one survivor left, what's to stop them just continuing to hide and keeping the game hostage?
Hell, what he's proposing would make 1-hour games common since Killers would spend an hour searching for the last.
Sure the killrates will go up due to the Entity auto-sacrificing the Survivors after 1 hour, probably making the devs nerf Killers in response to the sudden rise in 4ks.
If any mechanic is added to prevent endgame slugging/trolling, then it can only be two ways;
1: Only 2 Survivors remain and one is slugged; the slugged Survivor can either insta-die or fully recover after 60 seconds (ONLY when 2 are left to make the Killer end the game and prevent trolling but without giving basekit UB to everyone). If the Survivor wants to try to give Hatch if left on the ground they insta-die, if the Killer slugs but there's only 1 gen left/the doors are powered then they can try to get up if they want to try for a comeback.
2: If every remaining Survivors are downed/hooked, the Survivors can choose to insta-die to go next, the game is already lost anyway and if people aren't going to hope and try for a comeback they shouldn't be forced to wait 4 minutes while the Killer walks over their bodies.
Hatch needs to stay, endgame trolling and time-wasting needs to go. Not getting the 4k isn't the end of the world and the Hatch doesn't even count as an escape for MMR purposes.
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Thana is only remotely useable if using Plague or Legion (or dedicating all perks to anti-heal, even then if Survivors are half-decent you won't ever get full Thana value outside of Plague and Legion).
Sloppy Butcher, along with Surge and STBFL, is one of the handful of good perks that M1/weaker Killers can use effectively that the powerhouses (Nurse, Blight) can't really use as well (since their main attack are M2 attacks).
Most of the reason why it's so common is because it's a free and universal perk that any Killer can use.
It's also the only universal anti-heal perk currently.
Sure it's a good perk, arguably easier to use than other anti-heal perks, but it's not overpowered at all.
Hell, if it makes you feel better, if they gut STBFL (and after they nerf Mangle) then you'll see the number of M1 Killers (and by correlation this perk) plummet and all you'll get when you climb the MMR ladder are top-tier Killers that don't need healing pressure. What little weaker Killers will remain will tunnel, proxy-camp and slug even more to compensate for harder/longer chases and weak healing pressure.
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That ship has sadly sailed, starting early 2024 it'll be basically impossible to 3-gen so gen placement will become mostly irrelevant.