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Sharby
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@Nazzzak said:
I think it's fine. Alot of people complaining about it were already complaining about struggling before the perk even came out. It's just another thing to point the finger at. Even if BHVR completely eliminated the perk, they'd still be here the next week complaining about something else.
And if we want to start adding conditions to perks, then killer perks are fair game too. No more benefit to just kicking a gen (if getting injured is just typical gameplay, then so is gen kicking). No more Lethal Pursuer, which I see in every second game at least, activating by just spawning into the game. Corrupt too, I guess, since again all you have to do to get the benefit is spawn in.
I can already see it now.
"Does anyone else just give up once all 5 gens are finished? Hope makes M1 killers unplayable in the end-game and has 0 counters, not to mention finishing all the gens isn't even a heavy cost since Gen regression doesn't exist. It should only activate if you are the last survivor alive and cause exhaustion the whole way through."
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You're about to get like several essays in this thread about the perk so I hope you're prepared.
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Bump. Literally every other game is like this.
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@jesterkind said:
I officially have no idea what people mean by "competitive" anymore.
To the wider point, though, Dead By Daylight hasn't lost its horror vibe at all, it's just branched out into other kinds of horror. The last four chapters are a great example of that; you have Singularity as extremely classic sci fi horror with some body horror thrown in there for aesthetic, you have Skull Merchant as the equally classic concept of "The Hunt" from rich people who seek a more dangerous game, with some social commentary on vulture capitalism thrown in there to give it some spice, you have Knight as a slightly blander but still just as fitting grotesque medieval grimdark horror...
Admittedly, Wesker is a little less of a horror archetype on his own, but you can't ignore Resident Evil's place in horror gaming history. Even RE5 was noteworthy! ...Largely for being awful, but y'know, still. I'd argue Wesker himself doesn't need to represent a horror niche because he's from a broader license, so he just needs to represent that. Which he does!
With Nic Cage, you have horror comedy, which still very much counts as representing horror. Arguably that actually started with Ash, since Evil Dead is considered horror comedy (I think? Still haven't seen them), and arguably it continued with referencing the Scary Movie mask for Ghostface, but Nic is the first character that aims to represent it as authentically as the last four (three discounting Wesker if you must) chapters presented their niches.
I think people get caught up in whether they personally find a thing scary, and base their idea of horror on that. Horror is a lot more far-reaching, though, and Dead By Daylight has done a great job branching out to represent more limbs of the tree than before with recent chapters.
Competitive to me means both sides trying their best to win and being as efficient as possible. With BHVR being way more consistent at balancing the game it makes me think that they care about the competitive nature the game is heading towards. Not a bad thing by the way, just different.
I suppose horror is a pretty broad umbrella in which many things fall under, and in a crossover game such as DBD it would be hard to bend each addition under the same unified theme.
That being said I feel as though I notice a shift in tone/atmosphere with the recent chapters compared to the first few. And DBD definitely needs a foundational vibe to keep it grounded and focused as a game, which I feel said foundation is being changed to something more action based as I stated in my OP.
While yes, Skerchant/Knight/Singularity are all horror in their own right, to me their art and gameplay don't really mesh well with what I interpret as the game's initial atmosphere to be. Feelings of helplessness, flight over fight, etc.
Let's take Singularity and Demogorgon for example. Both are sci-fi horror, but the Demogorgon aligns much more with the type of horror that I feel DBD used to be.
Demo doesn't talk, but instead his bestial nature is portrayed with roars/ambient gurgling/hissing that you can hear across the map. His visual design is also excellent, vaguely human shaped with perfectly unform skin until he opens his mouth which is his signature visual and attack, really sells the whole bloodthirsty alien aspect and his gameplay reflects it pretty well too. He feels like something one would want to hide from instead of trying to fight back. The Demogorgon doesn't view the survivors as anything more than something to eat, I think that's good. Granted, he's liscensed so it is admittedly a little unfair, but BVHR has been able to pull off similar characters (Dredge.)
Singularity though? I feel as though giving him a personality was a mistake that takes away from his contribution to the game's atmosphere. He taunts survivors by calling them worms and inferior lifeforms, and scolds me for bonking him on the head with a pallet. His visual design looks weakened and incomplete (which is lore-accurate,) also the fact that Gabe messed him up pretty bad makes him feel way less threatening as a killer. Combine that with the way his gameplay pans out, and he feels like something the survivors would want to fight and take down rather than run and hide from. I don't even find him vaguely creepy or unsettling, even when trying to detach my personal taste from the character.
Nicholas isn't a bad character or done poorly, but his personality and unique in-game SFX definitely do clash with the rest of the game to me, comedy horror is valid I agree, but at present he is very unique in that regard which makes him stick out way more. It also feels weird that he talks but nobody else does, I feel like voicelines are a very all or nothing type of deal so I hope they go back and retroactively spruce up some of the older characters.
There is nothing wrong with action-horror, RE 4/5 are both examples of it done very well and I feel like it will benefit the game in the long run as action-horror has a lot of flexibility. But we definitely are losing the original vibes DBD had and I think the devs should be careful because there is a very delicate balance in play.
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@LobbyDodgerLeonidas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3472337#Comment_3472337
Most of his posts are just subtly calling killer players bad lol. I noticed that. Any killer player that has a legitimate gripe about something in this game just needs to get good, it's a skill issue
You're being dishonest tbh, I don't even know the guy and most of the time he asks for footage to give critique.
Shockingly everyone that says they're losing due to one perk never posts any video proof and just whines. Weird how that works.
When I play Killer I win most of my games, when I watch high mmr killers play any killer, they win most of their games. So unless there's some secret mmr that somehow is flying under the radar for the majority of killer players, I'd say as of right now you can open up dbd on any given day and win most of your games as killer. No matter your loadout or choice of character.
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Its annoying as hell and feels cheap when it downs you but meh, Killers need to have perks that counter evasion.
Seriously, play Killer against people who know how to hide, its the most miserable thing ever.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3471928#Comment_3471928
MfT is not even outplayed Lithe and SB? These 2 is still the most popular exhaustion perks. Should we nerf them too? I am sure some people could nerf them tho.
Don't look at me I think Lithe and SB are overrated as heck and clunky to use.
Though I should warn you that there are those among us on these forums who want Adrenaline nerfed, so SB wouldn't be a stretch either for them.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3472203#Comment_3472203
The only divisive part is how much you want the perk nerfed, not whether it should be nerfed or not.
Even people who defend the 3% think it does too much for 1 perk slot due to the endurance and haste effects.
Personally, I want the perk absolutely obliterated into the ground, but I wouldn't of minded just a slight nerf to show that they at least understand it's very/too strong.
Not that simple. There's plenty of reasons why it doesn't need a nerf at all.
But let's pretend your point is true, they would need way more time to gather all of their data + player feedback to do a proper rebalance of the perk so they don't have to waste time revisiting it later due to missing the mark.
If the perk is owning you that bad just don't play tbh. If survivors could tolerate pre-nerf eruption for several months, killer players will live through something that's weaker.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3472156#Comment_3472156
Damn yea imagine if they listened to feedback about the perk that would be craaaaaaazy.
You mean the highly-divisive feedback that's not at all unanimous? That feedback?
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They literally told you they weren't nerfing it and you thought they would anyways because of... whining?
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You'll live.
No one will miss that ping-dependent minigame aside from maybe comp players since hookstates are important there.
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I want him to get a techy skin like Vittorio and Jonah did, or a nice fitted tux.. hmmmm
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@Pulsar said:
More like Hyperfocus.
Ahhhhh, the horror, 30 second Hyperfocus gens! But wait, nobody uses that perk now.
TBF MFT is a lot more versatile than Hyperfocus, I'd compare it to Resilience.
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@HugTechLover said:
I already burn an alch ring every single game. I’ve got hundreds of them, and they are bound to be changed. Why not use them why they are super strong?
Oh I don't fault them. Its OP but I use OP stuff too so its fair game.
But I used to never see it and now I just got it 3 times in a row so I assume its people add-on dumping or just bad luck.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/381953/third-mdr-dcb-spirit-in-a-row
Would you rather killers just waste all their MDRs? The MDR builds won’t be worth using after the nerfs, so it’s best to just get rid of all our MDRs now.
Yes I would rather never have to play against it ever again.
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Basekit nerfs are far more impactful than perk nerfs. PTS encouraged bad play outside of SWFs anyways, I'm glad its gone.
Killers def lost this patch cycle. Camping is dead, tunneling is hard if the survivor is good.
Expect killer buffs to follow soon.
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LMFAO
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Survivor:
- Stealth Killers are boring and I hope they never get buffed
- Hemorrhage needs to be nerfed
- Hag/Trapper/Wraith/Twins are all obnoxious to play vs and I don't want them to get buffed
- M1 killers should be weak due to being easy
- Survivors shouldn't be able to heal until they finish a gen
- Sacrifice animation should be removed, so long for no reason
- Maps should be 4x as big
- Gens are a dumb objective
- Added solo queue HUD shouldn't exist but more ways in-game to communicate
- People who go perkless or run off-meta perks in solo-queue are disrespectful towards their teammates
- Wesker's power is way too generous for no reason
- Killers don't really have any good reason to ragequit
- Bm'ing the killer unprovoked is really stupid
- Bully squads are lame
- CC's that make their niche bullying a killer should be banned
- Tunneling is fine and a great way to get better at the game
Killer:
- Gen Regression perks are boring and not fun to use
- Killers should be hella rewarded for getting downs more than hooks
- Hook timer should be way faster in EGC
- Basekit BT should be disabled in EGC
- STBFL should be baseline though nerfed
- Killer Addons shouldn't be lost and should be unlockables that are permanent
- Nemesis is cooler than Wesker design-wise
- Kicking a gen should make it lock up for a few seconds with a cooldown
- Corrupt and Deadlock Gift of Pain should be baseline but weaker
Probably more but I can't think of anymore rn.
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2 hooks 2 gens 2 chases.
The Rule of 2's will see you to a guaranteed safety pip and more.
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If this was a PvE game I wouldn't mind him since I adore his visual and audio design.
But Knight players all being cringe + his playstyle being cringe = bad killer for me. That being said, MFT made him a lot weaker right now, so I don't really care about facing him.
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@HaunterofShadows said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3470686#Comment_3470686
We cannot. We can fight against discrimination all we want, but it will not go away. Humanity as a species is incapable of such a development.
You can reduce it to the point of having the majority of people escape its harm. The entire goal of fighting is to continue the eternal struggle to minimize the effect it has on innocents.
"Human Nature" is a lazy excuse to justify bad behavior, humans are born with freewill that we can use to overcome instinct. Not to mention just because something is deemed impossible, doesn't make it so.
If I can be free of hatred towards most people, others are capable of it as well.
The entire point of my post was to tell the person I quoted that LGBT people are not the attention seekers they're being painted as, so any frustration and vitriol should be aimed at the people who mistreat them to the point where they need to advertise their pride to have a community to feel safe in.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3470494#Comment_3470494
Then what is the point of pride month, pride parades, pride celebrations and the lgbt community in general if not for making identity a big deal? I may be misunderstanding what you're saying but to me these things do seem to set themselves apart and highlight identity to a high degree.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3470607#Comment_3470607
I think characters and their stories serve better as inspiration rather than representation. Super heroes are a great example of this. A character like Superman inspired hope both in and outside of his universe even though his story is not something anyone can really relate to. No one is an alien from another planet crash landed on earth raised by farmers, but Superman is a character than resonated with people from all over the world.
Well idk if this is too much for the forums so the mods can warn me if it is.
But when historically LGBT suicide rates are pretty high due to years and years of oppression, hatred, abuse, and even straight up murder. They forced the LGBT community to create Pride as a way to show the world that they exist and will presevere through the hatred that's 100% unwarranted.
Pride also serves to inspire other LGBT individuals struggling with their identity to realize its not shameful or inhuman to be LGBT and they aren't alone in their struggles.
If LGBT people were treated respectfully and kindly, do you truly believe Pride would be a thing? I doubt it.
Most LGBT people would love it if being LGBT was irrelevant and never something that needed to be brought up outside of normal contexts, but that's not the world we live in, and non-LGBT people created the dynamic that exists today.
If you think Pride is obnoxious and want a world where no one cares what your sexuality is, blame the people who hate LGBT folks and be an ally in fighting discrimination, together we can achieve that future.
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3470638#Comment_3470638
A single perk doesn't even counter MFT.
Fearmonger-heal and walk during the chase to remove the exhaustion.
Blood echo- heal
Genetic Limits- don't heal
Play with your Food- requires nemesis to get stacks.
So to counter the 1 survivor perk you need 2 killer perks.
If they walk they're negating the distance their perk grants, depending on the killer it will equalize the chase.
If they heal for blood echo they're not on gens, that gives time to apply pressure, more if you have sloppy. PWF and Genetic Limits are pretty dog I'll give you that, but BE and Fearmonger aren't bad at all.
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I would also argue wraith ghostface and Myers don't really struggle with the perk either.
Ranged killers definitely get screwed the worst.
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@Raconteurminator said:
If you put one of those perks in your loadout, you won't be stressed about Made for This, but you will be stressed about including bad-to-middling perks in your loadout.
Well that's the thing.
If you care enough about a perk you can bring a perk to counter it at the cost of losing a perk elsewhere.
No different than running deadlock to counter Gen rushing. Or DS/OtR to counter tunneling.
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@RoastedGarlic said:
I don't think sexual identity should be known for any survivors. Not a single survivor should be labeled at all. People need to get over the incessant need to label everything. Sexual identity doesn't matter. I don't know how we got to this point in society where it matters so much. It genuinely adds nothing of actual value to any character.
People need to stop obsessing over fictional characters and their sexuality. There is more to people than who they're intimate with and honestly that isn't any ones business. Especially in a game like Dead by Daylight where it has absolutely no meaning at all, characters have no growth or story arcs.
Honestly, whether you're gay, lesbian, bi, trans, hetero, etc. It doesn't matter. That part of you is the least interesting part of who you are. We need to start acting like it. We're all more than that. We are all worth more than that.
Good sentiment I agree, now can you tell that to people actively harming others in real life for their identity or does it only matter when people ask for LGBT content in video games?
Shockingly enough LGBT people didn't decide that their identity is a big deal, everyone else did and is continuing to do so.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3469926#Comment_3469926
I feel like no matter the response I give or you give, we are always going to respond to one another because we are both too stubborn to listen to each other's points. I was going to right out a long response but decided against it, since it is realistically pointless.
To put it bluntly, and to save both of us the time, I think it would be best to just stop arguing with one another and drop it here.
It's alright lol. That's the point of discussion. We don't have to agree.
If its any consolation, the perk is definitely getting nerfed. Just have to hang in there. 😀
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3469682#Comment_3469682
"There is genuinely no way you're saying Red Herring is a fun perk unless you don't care about playing survivor."
Red Herring into Blast MIne? There is a reason why I put Blast Mine as well, but Im guessing we are going to skip over that? Blast Mine after the (unneeded) nerf it got awhile back is harder to pull off, so Red Herring helps you get value more often by leading the Killer to it.
Also your entire argument around that basically translates to "I disagree with what you say, so you clearly dont play Survivor" which is FAR from the truth, considering how I play in SWFs and SoloQ a lot... but that wouldnt fit your argument wouldnt it? So you make things up about me?
And to dive a bit further into that last bit. Im not sure if you are aware, but I moved from Console to PC, I had every perk unlocked for both sides, and all characters with prestige cosmetics prior to moving (it happened after Project W released but before the Halloween Event). I care about both sides, because I play both sides.
"Most people dont get significant value from Made For This because theyre not good at looping"
Okay and many people suck at Nurse, does that mean she is sudden a D-Tier Killer?
Just because people cant use things right doesnt justify having broken things in the game, because it ignores the idea that experiences players can get their hands on it.
Look at Old Old Dead Hard, you could dodge a hit and use it for distance, it provided a huge amount of utility that was unmatched by most other peoples, yet the common defense for it was "it's not a strong perk, I just Dead Hard into walls"... realistically, nobody is talking about the players who suck at using a perk, the argument was never against them in the first place.
"Killers are less reliant on perks because they come with powers."
I thought the common consensus with the community was that Survivor's items equate to Killer's powers due to them occupying the same area in the Loadout. But I digress.
"Survivor gameplay is completely based on a perk loadout."
Hey, you should join me and my SWF for Perk Roulette, it is a great way or improving your looping skills and general knowledge with the game. Also, coming from someone who has done Power Moves twice (PC and Console), I can say that perkless is not that bad if you are strong enough in chase.
"Blight is one of the most overpowered Killers in the game, yet you cited he was fun for reference."
And yet you completely ignored my replies in other discussions regarding Blight... because I guess it doesnt fit your argument so it is easier to ignore it.
I said Blight's basekit is fine, it is rewarding while still challenging to use, and the speed is really quick but still slow enough for people to react. Coming from someone who has played Blight a lot but also played against Blight a lot.
That being said, Blight's addons are insanely problematic, and should be nerfed. An already good and decently strong Killer should not have access to such strong addons.
"Saying Made For This forces a playstyle is weird", "Healing Loadout against Plague or Legion...", "Sloppy + Pentimento + Plaything"
Congratulations, youve learned the concept that multiple things can be an issue all at once.
I never once said those things were "fine in the game", mainly since I never even talked about them but also because I think I can point out many issues with DBD at once and say "these are all an issue".
Of course, sometimes I focus my attention on just one, like anything else, but my opinion on such doesnt change when I talk about a specific thing, multiple things can be problematic even if I talk about one specific thing... it's not hard to understand.
Also my point was that it was strong enough to kill a lot of meme loadouts, things that both Survivors and Killers enjoy facing/using. My point was that a perk, that people think is "fun", is removing other "fun" aspects from the game, and I do not think that is healthy.
"It just extends chases, other perks already do that."
The issue comes with the perks function. Since it literally just provides free distance.
Well, if you are being chased by the Killer, you will probably get hit eventually and become injured. Meeting the requirement for such isnt that hard. Some people act like you have to be injured the entire game to get value but you dont, you get value as soon as you are injured.
3% Haste does not sound like a lot on paper, but you have to consider other things as well. The sides around loops can be cut a lot tighter than Killers because Survivors have smaller hitboxes and collision zones... due to this, you actually make far more distance around a lot of loops.
Ive seen some people compare it to Resilience but Resilience is such a niche perk. It's 9% buff only applies to Vault Speed. Yes it can help within a chase but its effects are minimal. This also is ignoring the idea that there are many maps where Resilience provides less/no value whatsoever within a chase. Made For This provides constant value since you are constantly running within a chase.
That being said, Nurse, Spirit, and Blight, all high tier Killers, can easily just work around this, since their abilities can handle most, if not all, situations in the game. This 3% Haste mostly affects already weak Killers, and makes them weaker. I know some people will say "then just buff Killers then" but we all know BHVR isnt going to do this anytime soon, especially when most of their time and efforts are spent fixing their messy chapter releases.
I see a lot of people arguing that "you cant be Exhausted for it to work, so it makes it balanced" but it is not that much of a downside. There are many Exhaustion perks which work with Made For This because they have niche activation conditions. Dead Hard and Balanced Landing are prime examples, they can be used before you are about to go down and effectively just reset the chase... basically leading to a situation where you get free distance and a chase reset on top of it.
Ive seen people mention "just use Exhaustion addons/perks" because a decent chunk of Killers do not have Exhaustion addons. Also Exhaustion based perks have really niche activation conditions and/or really long cooldowns that make them not worth running. Even for a person who tries to make the most out of perks that other people hate using, I seriously cannot find any reason to run these because they are often just too much work to get any meaningful value from.
I can also go on and on about other nuances but I think youve read enough, nor do I think you care, it's the DBD Forums anyways, so half the people on here wont even read all that I put because "too long, didnt read".
-Perks
Using two perks to maybe get value out of one of them, and not a whole lot at that, is griefing your team. Full stop. If its a swf and everyone consents then sure, use perks like that. But unless you're in super low MMR I don't think using super niche perks are respectful to the other people on your team who are trying to win. To me at least, that's like 80% of survivor perks. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I don't know you, but you citing that people run the same perks just because they're strong and not also fun then citing a lot of terrible perks that people should run instead just sounds self-sabotaging to me. You can do whatever you want it doesn't affect me in the slightest.
I play both sides as well, but that doesn't mean I want both sides to be super balanced to the point of having nothing interesting or strong to use.
-Nurse
Again, you need to define what broken means. To me, it means something that actively warps the game into an unplayable state.
The Nurse comparsion never works because she's gamebreaking, she ignores the fundamentals of the game, she causes perks to get nerfed specifically because of how they interact with her kit.
MFT isn't even in the same town, let alone country as her.
I've had this discussion with multiple people now and I've yet to be convinced that MFT is even close to some of the actual broken things that exist or have existed in this game.
Dead Hard was complained about because it was egregiously overused, not because good players got value from it, arguing otherwise is wrong since the devs didn't nerf its functionality, just how often you can use it. All the pain points of DH for killers still exist.
-Items
Maybe at one point when items were gigabroken that would've been fair to say. But the only very strong items left are toolboxes which are probably next on the chopping block, so I would definitely say that consensus is outdated personally.
-Perkless
I don't see how my skill is relevant to the point you're quoting. If I have a full healing build, I'm not going to spend all game hiding and doing gens and not healing. Could I? Sure, but I'm wasting the potential of my perks for no good reason.
This is why people enjoy multi-purpose perks like Resilience and MFT. I want to get chased, but these perks enhance my strength for other things as well, it feels good to use because its seamless and doesn't require tedious set up. That's how perks should be.
I can assure you I'm doing well enough and will continue to win most of my games even without MFT. I don't mind having more people to play with though. :)
-Blight
Idk why you keep bringing up me twisting words to win a forum argument, its not that important to me, I just didn't read your earlier posts.
I brought up Blight to shoot down the idea that meta = not fun.
-Sloppy
Except none of those killer things I brought up need to be nerfed, my entire point is that you're saying MFT forces the killer to change their whole playstyle, that's not true.
So I brought up things that actually force players to change up their playstyle, which is true.
MFT doesn't make survivors jump over walls or start building weapons to hit the killer with, it simply gives you a strong haste buff while injured, the gameplay loop is still the same, you still run the survivor down.
If you're going to argue that the perk needs to nerfed because the haste is too strong, do that. But let's stop the hyperbole and claiming its the next MoM or whatever other boogeyman people decide to choose for the day. Its definitely not even close to the strongest thing survivors have gotten in the game's lifespan.
Meme playstyles shouldn't be considered in serious discussions about balance because the user of said playstyles should be prepared to possibly get stomped, which shouldn't be an issue considering they're memeing no? Nerfing perks to preserve incorrect playstyles like saw only Billy makes no sense.
People play stuff like that because they don't care about winning and just want to fool around.
-Function
Its not free, you have to get injured to use it. Which, we can discuss the impact of being injured, but its still a cost to the perk.
I have never downplayed the strength of the perk, you don't need to explain to me that its good. I know its good, I've been using it since it came out and I've been reaping the rewards of being a decent looper with it active.
I personally just don't find it gamebreaking because you still need skill to get true value out of it, sure a rank 20 can get 3s more chase-time just from the base value, but is that really problematic? I don't think so.
I'm fairly confident that if all the players saying they're losing games solely due to the perk uploaded footage of them playing Killer, a lot would come to light.
Killers still have plenty of counters to the perk but for some reason the perk is talked about like its playing the game for most players which is what I take issue with.
Even godlike players still make fundamental mistakes in chase or get outplayed that result in downs despite having this perk + Hope. As long as that potential exists and isn't super rare, the perk is balanced to me.
I am still unconvinced that perks shouldn't have constant value, there is too much RNG in this game for niche perks to be what should be the standard, its not fun running No Mither and then going against an Oni for example. I wouldn't want perks to be like that.
Resilience if far from niche, I'm not sure how you got that, I would argue its even better than MFT its just an older perk so people treat it differently, you get a permanent 9% boost to every single action that's not movement. Which means no matter what you're doing you get value from it.
Resilience/DH/MFT/Hope are excellent to me because you can use them in most builds and get value in most games. I personally find them the peak of perk design in the game to be honest. I wish both sides had plenty of perks like these, it would make the game a lot more fun to me.
-M1 Killers
As I've said before, we definitely should not water down new content just because of M1 killers, they will still be bad but now the game is made worse for it.
That makes no sense to me, and last time I checked almost every killer including M1 killers have decent killrates. If that changes with official data we can open the discussion again but people are acting like M1 killers get rolled every game, my own experience says otherwise.
Its still entirely possible to consistently win most of your games even with the perk being relevant, on any killer.
Exhaustion perks are not really a counter to MFT I feel like that's bad advice that's been spread, if anything expose perks are far more powerful at controlling it.
The best counter to MFT is to utilize tools and chase strategies that don't involve holding W to the survivor, killer powers, mindgames, instadowns. They exist and most everyone can employ them.
I personally enjoy the fact that bloodlusters are struggling because of the perk, but perhaps I'm just petty.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3469728#Comment_3469728
Ok but there is a massive difference in having a COUPLE and doing ALL of them. Giving a label to every single character would cause problems. LGBT or Hetero alike, it doesn’t matter.
That's because you're viewing it as an announcement purely for sexuality. Which, it isn't your fault, the OP worded the thread as such.
I guarantee if they had asked "Should BHVR put more time into fleshing out a character's lore more?" this thread wouldn't be so spicy.
Survivors are not robots or avatar characters, they all have personalities, its not a far reach to assume romance is part of it, however they may swing. Its not really BHVR's fault if their canon clashes with a headcanon, ambiguity is nice, but I prefer something concrete and personally would enjoy the survivors getting more in the lore department outside of rifts.
It would also help if people didn't get so defensive over the topic and worded their opinions in a grounded manner, because it just looks like closeted bigotry instead of a matter of taste to me.
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Bisexual Vittorio would be so epic.
Also lol @ people suddenly caring about immersion when you can wear onsies and tbag.
Plague, Billy, and Trapper literally have weapons made of candy.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3468752#Comment_3468752
Ah yes, the "fun" perk argument?
There are a lot of "fun" perks. Diversion? Hope? Blast Mine? Smash Hit? No Mither? Object of Obsession? Soul Guard? Red Herring? For The People? I can list more.
Notice how all of those perks have fun and interesting effects. Notice how you never see them in public matches.
The truth is that most people dont care if things are fun or not, it's the same reason why you see the exact same builds from Survivors and Killers every match, because people care more about winning than using "fun" things. You can cut the BS because it's really easy to see through.
And what about interacting with the Killer? Old Dead Hard created mindgaming, new ways of playing with and against the perk. I was fine with Old Dead Hard, now we are stuck with this Made For This meta which is arguably more boring (since it promotes holding W), less interactive (since the perk is just passively giving extra distance with minimal downside), and stronger than what we had before (no need to worry about timing or precision, you just get the benefits for free).
Oh yea, what about "fun" things from the Killer's side?
Scratch Mirror, one of my favorite addons in the game, is completely useless in this meta. You move 5% faster than Survivors in Tier 1; MFT makes you move 3% faster while injured; you are 2% faster than Survivors... holding a loop tightly is already enough to not be caught by this, now you can actually gain distance. Oh, but I guess you wont care about that?
Or my main Killer, Billy, yes they have an insta-down power, but curving requires insane precision, and even with Double Engravings, you BARELY catch Survivors, once Survivors know that you use your chainsaw a lot, they stay injured because there is no point in healing. 3% is enough to make the difference between a down or not. Prior to Made For This releasing, I played Billy a lot. Now they are basically unplayable because they are a glorified M1 Killer in the current meta. But I guess you wont care about that?
The "fun" argument goes both ways, people having "fun" is nice, but your "fun" does come at the expense of effectively removing and punishing players for picking certain Killers and addons. Your "fun" makes people not want to use other "fun" things that exist, because it effectively punishes people for wanting to have fun and forces them into strict playstyles.
Most of the "fun" perks you listed are garbage and mostly used for trolling.
There is genuinely no way you're saying Red Herring is a fun perk unless you don't care about playing survivor.
Nobody has fun being useless. Especially not in the current game's climate. And acting like strong perks can't be fun is wrong, the only meta survivor perk that's tedious to use is Sprint Burst.
Saying MFT is stronger than old DH?? The only reason it even seems that way is because before DH got nerfed every single killer just expected it always and the only way to get value from it was pallets or doing a dance in the Killer's face. Which most players could not do successfully. Coincidentally, most players also don't get significant value from MFT because they're not good at looping.
Killers are less reliant on perks because they come with powers. Survivor gameplay is completely based on perk loadout. They aren't the same at all.
Blight is considered one of the most overpowered killers in the game and yet he's cited as fun if you want a comparison.
Also, to be fair. Saw only Billy is not how the killer was meant to be played and mostly a community thing.
Intentionally playing a killer wrong and using that as evidence towards a perk being overpowered is makes no sense.
Saying MFT forces a playstyle is so weird, it doesn't change how survivor plays at all. It just extends chases, which plenty of other survivor perks already do.
You know what does force players to a different playstyle?
Bringing a healing load out and then going against plague or legion and being forced to play without perks because of a dice roll.
Sloppy butcher and plaything+pentimento being in almost every game and forcing survivors to play mini games to do anything.
I wonder what the consensus is on that.
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The title of this thread is so funny I'm sorry.
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@BlueRose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3468518#Comment_3468518
Always find it funny when data shows a overturned/problematic perk ppl enjoy using they defend the whole data being used to balance argument. But the second it's something they hate or don't like, say nurse, they are all like "you can't balance the on data alone!!!" You can't have it both ways people. It's either balance the game around statistics or not.
Except statistics are nuanced and context matters and they can be misused and misinterpreted like everything else?
What is your point?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3468893#Comment_3468893
Perks can still be broken, even if they aren't as good for the average player. Because if we are balancing for the average player, then Nurse is completely fine because she's definitely not overperforming at the average MMR level.
You need to define what broken means.
I've seen MFT and OoO compared but the difference is old object was gamebreaking because permanent wall hacks which is uncountable in a swf but only helped the user in soloquue. So it's not really a gotcha because they're completely different cases.
Nurse is also not the same because she's gamebreaking as well due to her base kit ignoring rules of the game similarly in nature to tombstone Myers.
MFT? It's strong, very strong and could be op in the hands of good loopers. But honestly comparing it to actual gamebreaking things is folly imo.
Ghostface, Myers, Billy, Bubba, etc all have ways of skipping a health state and are all considered some of the weakest killers. If you're having to two hit to get downs you're probably losing anyways. So I don't believe the perk is making them unplayable.
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@Hannacia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3468870#Comment_3468870
I do this MFT is carrying people to wins they don't deserve. Been using MFT + hope lately and ive gotten easy escapes which i probably didnt always deserve. Personally i'd just be happy if they take the haste stacking off. Thats my biggest issue.
Getting to endgame doesnt mean you should get easy escape as a survivor.
And how exactly is it doing that?
How come I still see really good survivors like Ayrun going down to killers in the end game even with the combo?
How come in soloqueue my teammates still die 70% of the time even with the perks?
Your experience seems to be way different than mine so I'm wondering if they're using a different perk.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3468528#Comment_3468528
The addons most agree are overtuned on the stronger killers, I'd consider that.
Meh, I don't really care about Blight or Nurse getting nerfed, I just accept the loss if I see them and try to play my best. They're rare enough to where I see them like once every 20 games, and only a few are good enough to end the game fast.
I'd rather them nerf perks that killers commonly use instead, that would have a much bigger impact on my games.
That being said, I don't think any killer perk needs a nerf right now aside from Sloppy cause its annoying.
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@ChaosWam said:
It feels worse when you try to make sensible compromises with either side for the overall health of the game and explore a middle ground and everyone wants to keep their overpowered toys and start insulting each other.
I know it's not a new thing but man is it getting us nowhere.
Sensible compromises such as?
Also what would you consider an overpowered toy on the Killer side of things?
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@LobbyDodgerLeonidas said:
It's not just a number though. Sorry, very few people want to willingly sign up for a more difficult match, and will avoid it when it takes no effort to do so. I know the prevailing take on the forum is that every P100 is actually a Meghead, but people who play against lobbies of them know that's a galaxy away from the truth.
This logic makes no sense. Because it can be applied to Survivor as well, yet Survivors cannot lobby shop the killer.
How does it make sense that survivors never know if they're going to go against a P100 content creator Blight vs a Baby Huntress.
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@GlamourousLeviathan said:
It clearly messes up the balance of the game and there is no way to get around it. Just add a voice chat or a ping system with text chat for solo players and then balance around it.
What exactly do you mean by balance around it?
How could they balance around having comms? Remove all aura perks? Remove the HUD update? Less hook states?
I'm confused. The biggest benefit of being in Discord is that you know the location of the killer at all times, how would we nerf this? I never see any suggestions.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3466741#Comment_3466741
Sure, but if it "FEELS" bad to play against it, even if it isn't inherently overpowered, then it needs to be changed. Playing against a team of survivors who are running MFT and hope and get to the endgame for the sole purpose of just bullying you around because they run the same speed as a killer is a problem.
I wish the first part of this post was true so bad.
I'd be in heaven after removing all the stuff I find that feel bad to play against.
No sloppy, no bloodlust, no grabs, no stealth, no noed, no stbfl, no pain res, no jolt... man, what a dream.
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@Barbarossa2020 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3467524#Comment_3467524
If every survivor is going to start running it then that should start alarm bells ringing. Survivors don't all use one perk because its balanced.
I see it being the new dead hard.
How do you feel about Resilience/Adrenaline/Windows?
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I'd want the ability to apply bloody visual to every cosmetic for that character.
Bloody legendary skins would be so sick.
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I would rather them not neuter Blight tbh.
I just think basekit pallet break and alch ring should get removed. Everything else is fine.
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@DEMONANCE said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3466797#Comment_3466797
that same data tells them maps like the game and haddonfield are ok and don't need changing cuz killers get a decent average kill rate on these maps despite their problems but that data doesn't show how miserable it is to actually play on these maps.
idk what they're waiting for exactly, to see that there's a decline in kill rates in matches with mft? cuz that's probably not gonna happen much but that doesn't mean the perk is not busted.
how did their data not tell them that dead hard was problematic when everyone and their mom complained about it yet it remained in the game for 6 years.
bhvr just don't wanna shake off their old "stats based only" balancing methods.
Except DH didn't get nerfed because it was gamebreaking or overpowered, it got nerfed because it was egregiously overused which was where a majority of the complaints came from.
They didn't even nerf its function just how often you can use it a match.
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@Mandy said:
Made For This is something we are going to be monitoring, for right now we don't feel that it needs much change - it will continue to be monitored over the coming weeks.
And there it is.
Finally the forums can talk about something else hopefully.
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Is it a bad thing for something to be easy? I'm not sure I understand.
Why would I play something -hard- if it's not fun? When I can play something easy and have tons of fun.
Life is meant to be fun.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3465907#Comment_3465907
I mean it's fine not to like certain killers. Everyone has certain killers they do not enjoy going against. But I doubt that Hux will see any nerfs in the future.
Also, him extending most loops to "gambles" is kind of the point of his power. Ideally, the majority of loops should be "gambles", or mindgameable, since that's when both sides have counterplay. Killers want to have fun too, you know. Survivors being safe just takes away counterplay that killers have.
Him being able to stay on top of you with his teleports is also necessary, since he is a chase killer. If he loses that, he'll just end up in low tier again.
Also, I have no idea how good killers are always able to get a hit against a survivor because of the 10% slowdown. At loops, or with enough distance, you can still use EMP's perfectly fine. The killers skill won't play a big role in that.
Add-on pass he just got would say otherwise, though it seems to be a mostly neutral change.
If it stays as is, I would say I am satisfied since reduction of overclock duration should help out a lot with the issues I was having vs this killer.
In regards to safe loops, I definitely think there should be very safe loops in the game, the biggest problem is when they are easily chain-able or too common like on The-Game or Garden of Joy.
Killers innately have priority in unsafe loops due to bloodlust among other things, so it would get old fast if every loop was unsafe.
I don't disagree with you in thinking his power should remain impactful to keep his strength at a good level, nobody likes an F-Tier killer. My opinion is that I prefer infrequent power usage that's more meaningful over a more spammy playstyle since I personally believe it leads to more skill-based gameplay.
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@ad19970 said:
I disagree. First of all, EMP's can definitely still be used in chase, you just need to be a bit more mindful about it.
Second, predropping works sometimes, even if it doesn't gain you as much distance as against other killers. Windows are also still useful against him, tiles like T-L walls are actually pretty decent against him.
Also, if you are at a loop, and he teleports, sometimes the best thing to do is to not drop the pallet but just keep looping the loop. Depending on the loop size, you will have enough distance to him to make it back to the pallet after he loses his overclock, at least in my experience.
He is strong in chase, which is a good thing, but he does still have some counterplay.
10% hinder is a death sentence against any competent killer player. Especially since its basekit. I will agree that you can still use it against most players though, but I don't have an issue against the killer when he's played by someone average/below average. So I'm not referring to that as I can handle him.
It works -sometimes-, and that's my issue, I personally do not enjoy diceroll gameplay. And Hux is riddled with it. T-L walls do work the most against him, I agree, but T-L walls are gambles by nature (which is fine, that's how they were designed.) I do not enjoy him extending that nature to most loops in the game.
Against Knight, good pathing avoids a lot of situations where he can pincer me with his guard due to how the AI works, there are plenty of loops that Knight can't really control.
Against Skull-Merchant, her power does nothing if I am already injured, and is mostly useful for gen control, but even in a fresh chase, it doesn't deny much due to the windup on the expose.
Against Singularity though? If he waits until I'm under a pallet and TP's, I'm screwed, I can't make enough distance to get to another loop since he's not slowed very long, I can't pre-drop in that case. Which again, I'm totally okay with, he used his power well and gets a well-deserved hit. And in some contexts, there are resources to handle it. But my issue starts when if I managed to outplay it, he just does it again a few moments later and again its back to the 25-75 at the loop. I dislike it, it feels very cheap to be honest.
Spirit also makes chases a gamble, but I don't mind her nearly as much because at least if I win the phasing game, I get rewarded big time with distance since she's slower by default and has a decent timer on her power.
I compared him to Knight and SM because like them I feel like his gameplay pattern is very uninspired anti-loop that keeps getting released.
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@squbax said:
You can predrop, gain distance not greed pallets, because im pretty sure a tp cancela bloodlust, so you can keep chaining loops just by droping the pallet after overclock runs out or before he is close to the pallet forcing a predrop.
The counters are there, also knight and cringe merchant are problematic due to their lockdown ability and their powers not only being boring but making 3 genning the only playstyle thats valuable, thing that singularity does not have.
Knight counterplay is way better imo.
Pre-dropping doesn't really do much when he gets increased breaking/vaulting speed. That's not even counting perks, good Hux's will also teleport in areas where the counterplay is even further minimized, which is fine. Killers should be rewarded for using their power well.
My issue is that the spam teleporting becomes very brainless very fast, you either waste 4+ pallets to go down anyways or you get screwed by bad rng and die instantly. Its a very annoying gameplay loop imo.
I still think his buffs were warranted and EMP's feel way more balanced now, but they absolutely should tone down his chase power to compensate. It wouldn't even be a big nerf since well-timed teleport still completely shuts down a loop. It just removes the spammy gameplay.
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@MalekithHatesSnow said:
Damn we should've listened to you, a paragon of the community
That's what I'm saying.