Seraphor
Seraphor
About
- Username
- Seraphor
- Joined
- Visits
- 9,011
- Last Active
Comments
-
@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659209#Comment_3659209
MMR and win conditions aren't the same thing, and I've been saying since it's introduction that people shouldn't be using MMR calculations to discern a win from a loss.
This is exactly how MMR works. MMR defines win conditions and adjusts accordingly. The win conditions are clear cut. Escape or die, nothing else matters besides how many escape or die.
And yes, it is a team game. You can’t escape without the help of your teammates no matter how well or selfishly you play. You are reliant on your teammates to either do gens or take agro, if they fail to do either, you will quite literally never “win” by MMRs definition. Sure, you can get hatch but that’s a draw according to MMR, you’ll never win in this regard by yourself.
Once again, this games not like TCM where it truly doesn’t require the help of your teammates to escape, you are fully reliant on your teammates to hit the win condition defined by MMR. There’s no way around that.
Win cons are also easily defined by MMR for killer. 3k and 4k is a win, 2k is a draw, 1k and 0k is a loss. There’s absolutely nuance outside of this but according to the games system, it’s cut and dry.
MMR defines win conditions and adjusts accordingly.
Not it does not. This is the reason why MMR is hidden. It is not a win condition and was never intended to be. The results screen is your win condition, your emblems, your pips, your score, your entities judgement. MMR has been a plague of misinformation since it's inception and has warped player preconceptions.
You can’t escape without the help of your teammates no matter how well or selfishly you play.
You absolutely can. You can easily open the exits and escape without your teammates. If you can't imagine how this is possible you can't be a very experienced survivor.
@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659188#Comment_3659188
Balancing around 50% kill rate doesn't mean the majority of matches would be a 2k. Because of the way matches usually snowball in the first couple minutes, it would mean slightly fewer 4k stomps and probably more 1k results. 0k is rare because of how easy it is to facecamp for a pity kill during end game.
You can rationalize it any way you want, but 60% average is unfair as long as the game is intended to be a mmr competitive multiplayer game.
Thanks for bringing this up. This is yet another of the myriad of factors that makes the win condition detached from the kill rate.
1Ks and 4Ks are the most common results for nearly every killer. Yet a 1K is still definitively a loss for the killer.
If you take two games, one 1K, one 4K, you have an even 50% win rate for the killer. Yet you have a 62.5% kill rate. 5 in 8 survivors have been killed.
With 1Ks being more common than 0Ks, and 4Ks being more common than 3Ks, and all are more common than 2Ks, even with a definitively 50% win rate, if you had 1000 definitive losses with 1000 definitive wins, even if you count a 2K as a draw, you still have a kill rate higher than 50%, because the more common 1Ks and 4Ks skew the kill rates towards that 62.5%.
I know it seems simple to think that "fair" must mean 50/50, that it's even, so it must be right. I used to think this too. But it is Not. That. Simple. It is a fallacy. The game is asymmetric and there are far too many nuances and variances that prevent attempts at equalising the two sides of that asymmetry.
-
@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659188#Comment_3659188
Is 2 out, 2 dead not considered a draw for both sides by the devs own admission? Am I remembering this incorrectly?
In an MMR perspective the survivors objective is to escape, not finish gens. The games still a 4v1. You’re fully reliant on your teammates to escape, if this game was more like TCM where an individual can actually escape all on their own I’d agree with this. You can be the best player in the game but if your teammates don’t support you, you’re not getting out. It’s a team game no matter how you spin it.
MMR and win conditions aren't the same thing, and I've been saying since it's introduction that people shouldn't be using MMR calculations to discern a win from a loss. MMR exists to help ensure survivors are matched with killers in a way that acheives the fairest match of survivors 'ability to escape' with killers 'ability to kill'.
It's not skill based matchmaking, it's kill based matchmaking.
Win conditions are not easily defined for killers.
Even survivors which are technically easily defined as binary at the most fundamental level, are muddied by the existence of 'teams'. Plus ypu then have challenges on top of that.
But for killers, most of the actual win metrics (emblems, BP score, challenges, etc.) are all contingent on acheiving objectives, and are mostly impossible to acheive without a certain number of hooks and/or kills.
Even the most extreme 'win', a 4K, can be a 4K in 4 hooks with no gen progress, or it can be a 4K at endgame with 12 hooks. Two vastly different scenarios with different implications gor the success of each side.
Even what I said before is an over simplification. But "2K is a draw" is not only just an even greate over simplification, but it also negates all of the subjective elements of DBDs ill-defined win conditions and simply chooses one of several options, that many don't agree with.
And it's not a team game, by the devs own admission. The ability to play solo is not only possible but encouraged. You absolutely can escape without relying on your team mates, you just have to be prepared to play selfishly. Teamwork exists as an option, not a requirement.
This is all part of what makes it an asymmetrical game, and all these efforts to create symmetry where is doesn't exist by enforcing teamwork, defining equal win conditions, etc. flies in the face of the fundamental nature of the game's format.
-
@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659026#Comment_3659026
I get what you’re saying but by the very definition the devs gave us, 2 out 2 dead is a draw for both sides. Yes, the 2 survivors that got out “win” in MMR but the overall match outcome for survivor is a draw.
At the end of the day survivors live or die by their teammates actions, the games still a 4v1, not a 1v1v1v1v1 regardless of how MMR treats it. You can run the killer for 10 minutes straight but you’re not getting out unless your teammates help you. So why would the survivors target mark for escape percentage not be 62.5%, 2.5 escapes on average per game?
1. It's not a team game at it's fundamental level. Survivor's end goal is binary, you escape or you don't. The average between two binary options is 50%.
2. A 2K is not a draw. People keep saying this because on the surface it appears to make sense that 2 of one thing and 2 of the other must be even therefore 'a draw', and I get why this seems like it should be the case, but that's not what a draw is.
A draw is where neither side wins or loses.
For survivors, 2 have won and 2 have lost, so the survivors haven't "neither won nor lost" they have most certainly either won or lost depending on the survivor.
For killers, they have not 'neither won nor lost', they have completed half of their objective. It's a very different thing.
If the average game was a 2K, and we presumed that the most balanced possible state would be that 'every game is a 2K always', then every game killers would be achieving half of their objective.
The equivalent for survivors would be only powering 3/5 generators every game, which is quite clearly a loss. For survivors to win, they have to complete their entire objective.
A 2K is not only half of the killers objective, it also necessitates that survivors have completed all of their objective and powered the exit gatesn which means killers have not only missed half of their main objective, but also failed in their secondary objective (preventing repairs).
This is why a 2K is a loss for the killer, in order for it to occur, the killer must fail in the majority of their goals, and why this asymmetrical format does not allow for the existence of a 'draw' in the truest sense. This is why, even though you call a 2K a draw, it will never feel like a draw for killers, and it feels like gaslighting.
-
@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659155#Comment_3659155
I was an instant fan of hers since I watched “10 things I hate about you” as a wee lad. I hoped/expected her to be more prominent in Hollywood after being in the Borne movies. I’m sad she didn’t but I still love her.
I don’t see Kate resembling her, though.
If I had to pick a survivor that resembles her most it would be Feng Min. (Kidding 😈)
No?
-
Do the normal shirts get the music? Or is it just the VIP ones for Kate and Jeff?
-
@Akumakaji said:
Kate is Taylor Swift in anything, but name.
If Kate is anyone it's Julia Stiles.
-
The problem is conflating sweaty players doing everything they can to win with "competitive players".
Most "competitive players" simply like the thrill of winning, they're not playing for the challenge. They won't be able to do that so easily in "comp mode". They'll just play casual mode so they can continue to stomp more casual players with their cheese tactics.
-
@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658612#Comment_3658612
Even if the survivor players are top MMR they’re still escaping less than 50% of the time, let alone winning the majority of their games. I was kind of surprised by this. High MMR survivors aren’t even breaking even with killers when it comes to winning.
If you see my first post in this topic, you'll see that yes, survivors aren't making their ideal win rate (50% escape rate), but neither are killers making their ideal win rate either (62.5% kill rate/37.5% escape rate).
The discrepancy is because a survivors win rate is identical to their escape rate, but a killers win rate is not the same as their kill rate. A 50% win rate for killers is a 62.5% kill rate.
So many grievances with this game are down to it's asymmetrical format, yet the complaints seem to completely ignore it as a factor.
-
@sinkra said:
I'm still asking how can 50/50 be considered unbalanced?
There are several posts in this topic alone explaining why.
50/50 is not what balance looks like for an asymmetrical game with an odd number of players. See Ryuhi's post.
It is more complicated than 50/50, but if you're coming from the position of "50/50 must be fair because it's equal" then anyone trying to explain the nuances to you is going to sound like a "killer main making excuses".
So there's really no point in trying to educate people, and I'm exhausted by this.
-
@Saiph said:
Not a comment on game balance itself but just a reminder that BHVR's justification for the 60% killrate makes absolutely no sense in a game with MMR.
MMR's job is to keep the killrate at 50% regardless of game balance. You could make killers move at 2x speed, the overall killrate would still be at 50%, the system will simply match experienced survivors against total beginners to achieve it. Actually, the kilrate should mathematically be more around ~40%, because hatch escape does not even count as a full escape for MMR.
So, the fact that the killrate is 60%, does not just mean the game is killer-sided. What it means above all, is that MMR is not doing its job.
I don't think anyone has a clue on what the killrate means, including BHVR. The stats they shared have always been pointless and full of contradictions, and even more after they explain them.
Like, look at this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/NVT4S27VNE8T/image.png
High MMR survivors, escape less than regular survivors? I'm sorry but what the #########? So the higher MMR you go, the more you lose? It's the single game on the planet that works like that.
Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's a contradiction.
You conveniently cut off the part that shows a higher escape rate for SWF at high MMR. More survivors at high MMR play as SWF, this offsets the kill rates and is why the lower proprtion of solo survivors have a lower average escape rate.
Moreover your 'contradiction' makes no sense if your point is that 'high MMR should have a higher win rate'. What about the killers win rate? If survivors had a higher escape rate at high MMR, that suggests killers would have a lower kill rate the higher their MMR.
Also, MMR can just as easily be tailored to acheive a 60/40 split as it can a 50/50 split depending on how each role's MMR is calculated. Most other game's MMR doesn't do this because most other games with MMR are symmetrical and don't have two distinct sides.
-
Something I find interesting about this whole debate is I've seen many killer mains justify the 60% kill rate and say it's good, but not a single survivor main who says it's good.
Have you tried asking people who play both roles and aren't so biased?
The idea that 50/50 would be balanced is a fallacy. This is an asymmetrical game, with an odd number of players in each game, with different win conditions for each side.
50% is the ideal kill rate for survivors, but the ideal kill rate for killers is about 62.5% (halfway between a 2K and a 3K on average). This is partly why neither side is ever happy with the state of the game. There is a 12.5% overlap where neither side is content. The fairest middle ground, a kill rate at any point between 50% and 62.5%, is less than the ideal spot for each respective role.
It's also why survivor mains and killer mains disagree on where the kill rate should be. Survivors want 50%, killers want more than 60%.
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658208#Comment_3658208
I never thought I would defend Feng but when I do play her I play very wholesome. For some reason playing her just brings that out in me.
You can play as wholesome as you like, but know that every injured cry of pain, every excruciatingly sarcastic "oooh oooh ooooooh" is communicating "oh dear mister killer, seems you missed your attack, would be a shame if this pallet were to hit you in the face, again" (cue her three plastic teammates standing nearby sniggering).
@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658208#Comment_3658208
Your hate is understandable, just know that Feng still loves you
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/JJLC4QNS1J3L/img-3957.jpeg
Feng to her SWF mates out of earshot: "omg they totally just believed that I love them, can you like even believe how pathetic they are, like totally."
-
@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658113#Comment_3658113
I used to hate Fengs because they were usually the most toxic to go against. Then they came out with the Bunny cosmetics and they somehow became the most wholesome cutie pies that made me want to let them all live.
Even as survivor, I found the Bunny Fengs would usually go out of their way to help someone. They softened my heart and I no longer hate them.
Mikaela is now the object of my hate along with Nancy. Ohhh how I hate Nancy mains.
and they somehow became the most wholesome cutie pies that made me want to let them all live.
This is fake news. There are only two Fengs, noobs who join you for every generator and miss every skillcheck, and toxic mean girls, and both of them have insufferable voice lines.
-
@Alice_pbg said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657993#Comment_3657993
let me add a bit more.
the rbts don't have a 1-2-3-4 array on the box searches anymore, but a 2-3-3-4-4 array. (yes, she has 5 by default now)
the scream on the ambush happens at the halfway point of the bar, not the start.
So from 12 searches to 16.
192 seconds of slowdown, roughly 400-450 with travel time. Closer to 7 minutes of slowdown as opposed to 5.
That is a very significant buff.
-
God I hope so.
#deletefeng
-
@Sngfun said:
While the nerfs are healthy and incentivize pig to play to her chase, I am sure most people that play her don't play her because of her chase, they play her because of her RBTs, you know, her core power. Ambush is already nearly useless and 0.3 extra seconds of duration won't change that. I mean, do you think people play Sadako because of her chase? No.
I play Pig because she's the best stealth killer in the game, and Ambush is far from useless if you use it via stealth.
Every other stealth killer has a limitation or a tell on their stealth power. Amanda can sneak right up to a survivor without any tells. You can be directly on the opposite side of the gen they're repairing and they won't know, providing you have LoS blockers.
If you start an Ambush within about 6-8 meters of a survivor, it will hit, and with stealth you can get that close.
I score Ambush hits all the time, maybe as many as 50% of my injuries can be due to Ambush in a decent game. I also get a decent share of Ambushes that just barely miss, so with these buffs, they'd be guaranteed hits.
For some actual Ambush footage, Scott's new video shows it off quite well.
https://youtu.be/TxyABUA0G3Q?si=LG6_3dNZaHwbNeMd -
@I_CAME said:
They need to implement limits to how many perks of a certain type each side can bring. Maybe a max of two slowdowns for killers and two second chance perks for survivors. It would encourage some perk variety at the very least. One of the most unfun things in the game for both sides is when you run into an opponent that plays like their life is on the line. Then the game becomes almost as much about the perks as it does the players. I personally don't enjoy getting teammates with meme perks and a Blight who is running four slowdowns.
I'd say the gen regression limit kinda does this already.
You don't want to bring too many regression event perks because you'll burn through them too quickly. So you need slowdown other than just regression.
Add to this the fact that gen blocking doesn't stack (besides a certain combo that triggers DMS of course), and we already have a self-limiting mechanic for nearly all slowdown perks.
It's more that out of the slowdown perks that do exist, the meta ones are the ones with the least hands-on requirements.
-
Of course it's possible. There's far too much variance and rng in this game to rule anything out. But it's typically more difficult and less likely.
-
It does however have a time limit. 30 seconds isn't long, and part of that is taken up by the time it takes to leave the gens terror radius. You get about 20 seconds of undetectable time for it, which isn't effective 32m around said gen.
-
As a double Calm Doctor, this sounds like a Nerf. I like my 72 meter terror radius.
-
@skylustv said:
My suggestion now that Pig cant see the jigsaw box aura:
- Survivors should not be able to remove traps until is activated
- Survivors also cannot see jigsaw box aura until the trap is activated
I'd be on board with survivors not being able to see aura's until the trap is activated. Their "game" hasn't effectively started yet. I think they should have the option to preemptively attempt any boxes they do find though. There's no reason to limit the slowdown to after a gen has been completed, in fact the opposite is what you want, particularly when at 1 gen remaining.
Also for the record, I don't think adding 30 seconds is a particularly "good" update. It's a "not bad" update, and I still don't consider it to have any negative impact on the way I play Pig. But it's lazy and doesn't fully adress her issues. As has been correctly stated, the added time doesn't prevent a Pig playing scummy with screaming or tunneling to force a head pop, it just makes it harder.
Ideally, instead of adding 30 seconds to the timer, the timer should pause when a box is being searched. This completely negates the screaming problem, as an interrupted search doesn't cost any of the RBT timer, it merely wastes general time and extends the slowdown potential without increasing the lethality of the trap. This would also serve to extend the timer by 12 seconds per search, so it would effectively be an average increase of 36 seconds to the timers as a whole.
Then to maintain some degree of lethality, in addition to pausing while searching, one of the following could be implemented:
- If a search is unsuccessful, 12 seconds are removed from the timer. This effectively negates the paused time for each unsuccessful search, so the only benefit in overal time is the final box search, ensuring that if you reach the final box within the timer, you can successfully escape from the trap. This would equate to an effective 12 second increase to the timer. Or...
- Each hook event removes 15 seconds from the timer. So an unhooked but trapped survivor benefits from an effective 36 additional seconds to the timer, while a hooked survivor has an additional 21 seconds, and a survivor on death hook has effectively an additional 6 seconds on the timer. This increases the potential lethality of the trap according to how many times a survivor has been hooked, so in some ways it's similar to the recent Sadako lock-in mechanic, and provides a way for the Pig to 'earn' a head pop. After all a survivor who is on death hook and then found by the killer should be in a dire situation.
-
@Adrien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653093#Comment_3653093
"30 seconds longer on traps now makes head pops almost impossible".
That's the point, less cheesy head pops, RBT as a slow down tool "only" (like Sadako).
However they should set the minimum search number to 2. One search to get rid of a RBT is ridiculous.
I use the add-on last will, sometimes when the survivor try to leave the loop a bit too late I catch up with the extra 6%. Also around "mediocre loop" where survivors think they can outplay me with double backs or they can reach the pallet in time, they take a hit.
This add-on is really slept on. And you don't even mention it.... Basically Amanda goes from 172,5% (6.9 m/s) to ... 182.85%.
That's a big speed with a slightly bigger reach.
Base distance with ambush dash : 13.8 meters. With Last Will add-on : 14.6 m.
New buff : basekit 15.87 meters !
With Last will : 16.8 meters covered at about 183 % movement speed !
You're not gonna conviced me this is not significant.
3 more meters basekit lol. That's a big deal. See you in the PTB for the feedbacks.
However they should set the minimum search number to 2. One search to get rid of a RBT is ridiculous.
We already have a minimum search of 12 between all traps. If one gets theirs off in 1 search, that means at least two others have to make 4 searches.
A 1 search trap is the best thing ypu can get if you want the chance of a head pop. Guaranteeing 2 at a minimum makes the 4 search traps less likely.
-
@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653311#Comment_3653311
Why is it that smart killer gameplay is considered harassment or scummy? The killer always wants the exact opposite of what survivors want. If they want to be left alone when taking care of the RBT, then it's only natural for the killer to pressure them away from the boxes. A killer has just much a right to play around their power as a survivors has as long as it doesn't involve exploits. And this is not an exploit.
The real value of RBTs wasn't the 144+ seconds of slowdown because they were even stronger than that. A good Pig player can make survivors stop progressing completely, if only for a brief time. That guy with an active trap has to take care of that. They don't have the time to come for an unhook, heal, search a chest, get chased away from traps and still get the trap off, if they have 4 searches. This will no longer be the case. 30 seconds more time is enough to take any kill pressure away. Meaning, they have no reason not to participate in normal gameplay during that time. It's worse when you consider that the Pig can no longer play around their power either. It's still a 1v4 even with an active trap in play. I don't know how that doesn't make her slowdown mechanic weaker.
There is no nerf here... unless you're a Pig who harrasses a trapped survivor to force a head pop.
In other words: Just don't use her power to its max potential. What about Pinhead's box, would it be a nerf, if he couldn't pick it up himself anymore? Surely not. It's only a nerf, if you do that. Or Sadako's codemned moris, would it be a nerf if you couldn't kill survivors with it but it would give you simple slowdown instead? Only if you used it to get kills. Pig needs to do even more to get this kind of pressure. She first needs a down. As a M1 killer with only a mediocre chase power.
Good killer gameplay is using literally everything in your power to build pressure. So you could also say: It's not a nerf, if you play bad. But if you play bad, then you should lose the match. This argument is a complete slippery slope.
There is a difference between tunneling one survivor and giving them so many side objectives that they simply cannot do them all. You don't need to tunnel to get head pops. Strategic gameplay can be enough. If the trapped survivor has a million different things to do all at once, then they get dangerously close to dying. Now push them away from the boxes once or twice and they die. Pig is too weak in chase to win all of her games by hooks. No matter how good the Pig player is, they are still limited by her mechanics. They can't fly, no matter how good they play and they can't use their ambush around connected loops because survivors simply leave.
Why is it that smart killer gameplay is considered harassment or scummy?
Because the survivor cannot do anything. Their fate is sealed the moment they receive a trap with 4 searches. 2:30 is already barely enough to reach 4 boxes on some map spawns, all it takes is for the killer to be at the one you're going to once and you're guaranteed to die, potentially on first or no hooks.
This is not healthy gameplay. It's worse than tunneling. Furthermore there's a current tactic of using scream perks such as Face The Darkness and Ultimate Weapon to interrupt boxes, which has the same effect without even needing to tunnel.
Ideally, traps ahould only be able to kill when the survivor messes up. Not when the killer decides to casually interrupt one single box search.
Not only is this fair, but it's in line with the lore too. Amanda tried to fix the game in her favour and her hubris killed her, meanwhile John's games always had a guaranteed way out, providing you played by the rules.
They don't have the time to come for an unhook, heal, search a chest, get chased away from traps and still get the trap off, if they have 4 searches. This will no longer be the case. 30 seconds more time is enough to take any kill pressure away.
Absolutely false. An extra 30 seconds doesn’t give you the freedom to drop your box search relay. There is still the chance that your search is interrupted, that the killer intercepts you between boxes, and this can shave off a lot of time. 30 seconds is nowhere near enough to guarantee you tine to spare.
Just don't use her power to its max potential. What about Pinhead's box, would it be a nerf, if he couldn't pick it up himself anymore? Surely not. It's only a nerf, if you do that. Or Sadako's codemned moris, would it be a nerf if you couldn't kill survivors with it but it would give you simple slowdown instead?
Sadako has literally been nerfed and reworked multiple times to prevent her power being used purely for lethal moris. Skull Merchant has also had reworked to remove problematic tactics. Pig isn't even new to this as she was reworked to prevent her guaranteeing a head pop by camping a box. This is no different to that.
Kills have to be earned, and survivors have to have the opportunity to outplay the killer.
Using the Pig's power to it's potential, playing the optimal Pig game, is leaving a trapped survivor alone to make use of the slowdown it provides. It's the most basic form of killer arithmetic, that although can take skill and a bit of luck to fully realise, is still overlooked by many poor killers who rely on crutch perks.
One survivor is hooked, one survivor is in chase/directly pressured, one survivor has to go for the rescue + heal, that leaves one survivor on gens. You want the survivor that's left to do gens to be the one who is trapped. The optimal Pig game is ensuring that scenario occurs as you rotate survivors and work through your traps.
To say that optimal Pig games are where you get head pops by applying minimal pressure to one survivor who has no ability to do anything else but die, is like saying optimal Skull Merchant gameplay is holding gens hostage for 59 minutes. It might be true, but it's scummy.
I play Pig a lot, I always ignore the trapped survivor. I want to get all the slowdown potential out of that trap, and I don't want them to die to a trap on their first hook. I want them to eventually get their trap off? so that I can catch them and hook them again, I want as many hooks as I can get.
Despite this, I still get games where survivors die to traps. Sometimes without any interaction with me at all, sometimes because I accidentally crossed paths with them and delay their searches. You know what usually happens in these cases? A DC, or they give up. There's nothing satisfying in shooting fish in a barrel.
-
@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654021#Comment_3654021
You don’t have time to get a trap on everyone, if they know what they’re doing. BHVR added that, and things like new grim to try and encourage spreading pressure, when in reality you’re better off hard focusing on one.
I don't think I've ever had a Pig game where I haven't used all my traps.
-
@Eelanos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653371#Comment_3653371
I think the extended timer is to reduce edge cases. It hardly ever happens, but I've had a couple of times where leaving immediately to start searching boxes while having the trap that requires the highest amount of tries to disarm would not be enough to search all the boxes you need.
It's a once-in-a-blue-moon issue, but I've gotten killed by a slightly too short timer before. It feels terrible because you're left there thinking "What was I supposed to do... I just got RNG'd to literal death."
I've had this as well. The timer can be barely enough to reach 4 boxes sometimes, and one minor deviation or one interrupted box can be certain death. 30 seconds doesn’t give you all that much leeway here. If 2:30 is barely enough to remove the trap, 3:00 isn't going to allow you to do anything meaningful, because there's still the risk of not acheiving an optimal path between boxes if you happen to cross paths with the killer.
People are acting like those 30 seconds allow the survivor to do a gen before their head explodes, but in reality you still can't risk not going straight for a box. It only takes you running into the killer between boxes for you to be a real risk.
That said, I do think increasing the timer by 30 seconds is the lazy option. I don't think it's a good change, it's just not a bad change.
Personally, instead of increasing the timer, I would have had the timer pause while working on a box. This would still have the effect of increasing the timer by an average of 36 seconds, but it would be relative to the number of searches, so that a 2 search trap is still threatening, but a 4 search trap isn't almost certain death.
Moreover, it would mean that an interrupted search isn't drastically increasing the lethality of the trap, and therefore can't be used to force a head pop. Chasing a survivor off a box would still increase the slowdown potential, as that's another box to search, another 12 seconds plus travel time. It just wouldn't be such a scummy play and result in certain death with nothing the survivor can do about it in any way.
-
@Hensen2100 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653614#Comment_3653614
Getting her chase power buffed to be merely terrible from worthless does not make up for the fact nobody will ever die from a RBT again
Why play this character? Even after this "buff" her chase power is still trash. Her stealth is still terrible and clunky. Now the slowdown will never kill anyone unless the team is absolutely falling apart
The one and only reason to play this character is going for RBT kills and this patch removes that
Throw her in the grave with Sadako already, these reworks are terrible. The fact they just nerfed billy because "missing a chainsaw meant nothing" and then now buff huntress so you need to dodge ~seven~ fing hatchets in a row before you get a break in chase is wild and tells you everything you need to know about these devs
Why play this character? Even after this "buff" her chase power is still trash. Her stealth is still terrible and clunky.
As someone who plays a lot of Pig, this couldn't be more wrong. She has the best stealth power in the game, it's on demand, has no cooldown, it lowers her height and doesn't have a lullaby or breathing, no other stealth killer has this full package.
Ghostface has a cooldown, can be revealed, and flaps about like a tarpaulin in a hurricane. Myers breaths like Vader and has to ditch his stealth to kill. Wraith gurgles mouthwash and shimmers like a disco ball. Sadako buzzes at you half a mile away. Alien can't fool the motion sensors.
Additionally, an Ambush used correctly is still effective, both in catching survivors off-guard and often in chase.
Now the slowdown will never kill anyone unless the team is absolutely falling apart
Good, that's the whole point. RBTs are not meant to kill. You are meant to kill. You are the killer.
The mere threat of them forces survivors to remove them, and that provides the slowdown. 30 seconds leeway isn't going to make a difference, a 4 box trap is still going to require you to drop everything and prioritise boxes, and you don't know how many you'll need.
The one and only reason to play this character is going for RBT kills and this patch removes that
GOOD. As a Pig player, I weep for all the Pigs I go against who tunnel the survivor with a trap. You are wasting your slowdown doing that. You leave the trapped survivor alone and pressure the other survivors.
Killer pressure arithmetic is simple. You have one survivor hooked, you chase another survivor, that leaves one going for the rescue and one on gens. Throw a trap into the mix and guess which of those survivor tasks can't be completed? The Gens. You chase the trapped survivor and you have no slowdown.
If all of those Pig players stop playing her that way, then these changes have done their job.
-
Agreed
-
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653420#Comment_3653420
Pig is based off of the Saw movies, which are filled with deadly traps, and filled with people being scared of possibly dying to these traps. This new level of non-lethal traps feels like it’s just too far away from the source material.
When Pig was first added to this game, the traps were absolutely supposed to carry the threat of lethality. It’s just that over time, BHVR has shifted the traps farther and farther from lethality. But it’s not how she was originally designed, and it’s absolutely not thematic at all with her movie character.
This couldn't be any closer to the source material.
Jigsaw's traps were always fair and always had a chance to survive if you played by the rules. Unless you play like Amanda and screw yourself over.
Go out of your way to secure a kill with a trap and you screw yourself out of your own power.
-
@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653420#Comment_3653420
As someone who regularly gets 4Ks before the last generator is done (and not through head pops) using an entirely end-game build that I joking call my "Perkless Pig" build, I'm pretty sure I know how to play Pig.
You are right, the last traps change was a buff, but this is not.
Then you recognise how there is no nerf in these changes.
-
Evidently most people don't understand how to play Pig.
Traps are not supposed to be a way to reliably kill survivors. Ideally they should only result in a kill when the survivor ######### up, not when the Pig stalks and harrasses the trapped survivor.
Traps are supposed to be slowdown. 12 box searches guaranteed, 12 seconds each, plus travel time. 144+ (typically double) seconds of guaranteed slowdown. One or more survivors at any given time that aren't doing gens. It's one of the best slowdown mechanics in the game. That's the value of RBTs, and that hasn't been changed one bit.
Increasing the time survivors have to remove their trap doesn't change how long it takes to remove the trap. Hiding auras of boxes doesn't change how long it takes to remove the trap.
If you're tunneling a trapped survivor you're shooting yourself in the foot.
It's genuinely hilarious how every time they buff the Pig (the last change to traps was a buff too, it made the slowdown more reliable), the playbase convince themselves it's a nerf.
-
So much melodrama.
Every time the topic of Pig buffs comes up, and it's fairly often, the consensus is always:
- Buff chase
- Buff crouch
- Buff Ambush
- Buff stealth
- Nerf traps
And that's exactly what we're getting.
Traps are not supposed to be a way to reliably kill survivors. Ideally they should only result in a kill when the survivor ######### up, not when the Pig stalks and harrasses the trapped survivor.
Traps are supposed to be slowdown. 12 box searches guaranteed, 12 seconds each, plus travel time. 144+ seconds of guaranteed slowdown. That's the value of RBTs, and that hasn't been changed one bit.
Increasing the time survivors have to remove their trap doesn't change how long it takes to remove the trap. Hiding auras of boxes doesn't change how long it takes to remove the trap.
There is no nerf here... unless you're a Pig who harrasses a trapped survivor to force a head pop.
This is further convincing me that Pig mains don't actually know how to play Pig. You stick a trap on a survivor then you ignore that survivor until their trap has been removed. It's the single most effective form of slowdown in the game, and the best anti-tunnel mechanic that actually benefits the killer. But instead nearly every Pig I go against tunnels a trapped survivor, wasting their slowdown potential. Apparently all those Pigs frequent this forum.
-
@MalekithHatesSnow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652807#Comment_3652807
If I can still do this why remove the auras in the first place do you now see how unnecessary that is? You nerf the timers AND the auras why?
Because the problem with Pig is how easy it is to play cheaply and stalk a trapped survivor to guarantee a head pop. That needs to be removed from the game. It's worse than tunneling.
These changes make that harder, and less up to rng, but they still don't remove it.
-
@supersonic853 said:
The buffs arent really that much compared to removing her ability to capitilize on her own slowdown. 3 minutes for a headpop? Well guess ill do a gen before i start actually caring lol. She's pretty bad imo. We will have to see.
If you do a gen first, you'll only have 90 seconds left to get the trap off. That's not enough time to check 4 boxes. The 2:30 is often barely enough to check 4 boxes, and one slight delay can be certain death.
-
@MalekithHatesSnow said:
To all those saying "The Pig Aura boxes aren't a big deal!" You also used them for tracking if you knew a survivor searched the box near shack the box near main and the box near the jungle gym and they just got their trap off then they're probably by the box near the T L also patrolling boxes while multiple survivors had their traps on generated you so much pressure and you SHOULD be doing this removing the Aura is a big deal
You can still do this though. I never consciously target boxes but my patrols take me past them all the time.
If you really have to, you can just remember where the boxes are.
-
@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652785#Comment_3652785
I personally like to use the Ambush, even if it is not really good. And I always cringe when I see people running STBFL on her.
But, I would agree, a Reduction of her TR to 28m (so back to the original value) would be well-appreciated. Would at least free a Perk Slot for M&A for me...
I'm using Ambush all the time, I get several Ambush hits per game. Frankly there's not going to be an excuse to not use it now. If you're not using Ambush you're not playing her correctly.
As for TR, 28 would be nice, but I always run John's Medical File anyway, so I'm crouched pretty much all the time.
-
Semi Pig main here. I'm not seeing any downsides.
Long deserved buffs to crouching and ambush is brilliant.
As someone who never harrasses a trapped survivor, the lack of box auras has no effect on me. The increased time is also inconsequential, the purpose is not to secure a kill with a head pop, their purpose is to force survivors to do your side objective. They're slowdown, and their slowdown potential hasn't changed at all.
If you really want to secure a kill you can still do everything you could before, you just need to use map sense to work out where the boxes are and harrass the survivor a little longer.
Frankly I don't think extending the timer from 2:30 to 3:00 is good enough. If it were me, I would have made the timer pause while you're interacting with a jigsaw box, so that if you've partially finished a box and get chased off of it, you haven't just wasted precious time acheiving nothing. That alone would have been an average leeway of about 24-36 seconds per trapped survivor.
-
Yes.
Basically, the BP bonuses they took from BBQ and WGLF should have become basekit score events.
Bonus BP for the first time you hook each unique survivor.
Bonus BP for each time you; take a protection hit, unhook a survivor, heal a survivor, recover a survivor ftom the dying state, for the first time each game.
The former would help killers reach maximum in the sacrifice category, which was never touched after they increased the cap from 8k to 10k, and currently requires more than 12 hooks to achieve, you need to make the final hooks during EGC.
The latter would help survivors to gain a modicum of the BP that killers do, and are all relatively fast actions that can be done in the spur of the moment, or even in chase in some cases, so that survivors who are perpetually pressured by the killer scan still gain a satisfactory score.
-
@xEa said:
"I dont see it that often so it is fine"
"It does not have a lot of impact"
Please, it is clearly an overpowered combo. If the majority of survivors use it well or if it is popular or not is not important. The fact that most killer with some exception (PH fe) cant do much about it when they coordinate makes it insanly difficult.
No, i am not a killer main, just an objective person who wants ballanced and fairness.
I consider myself more killer sided than survivor sided.
I never run this combo as a survivor.
But I don't consider this a significant problem. The times it does become frustratingly powerful are incredibly rare and would likely have been a struggle for the killer anyway.
There are killer perk combos that are far more "problematic".
-
@Pulsar said:
I think I've played around 500 Killer games since it was buffed.
I've had it used less than ten times on me and of those ten times, it was meaningful twice.
It's great at stopping a tunnel out and giving that player a little more time. I don't have any real issues with it.
My experience is similar.
I see it used effectively maybe once a month.
Last time I still managed to down everyone almost immediately after it was used, burning through endurances, while the exits were open.
It takes a perfect storm of conditions to pull off and then profit from.
@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652565#Comment_3652565
I feel its a perfectly fine reason to tunnel someone. I don't tunnel as a rule, but it's a broken combo, everyone knows it, if you use it, you bring it on yourself :D
The only time the complaint holds water to my mind is if someone uses it to prevent an existing tunnel.
I feel like the Killer's handbook for survivor consists of 1 rule. Don't give the killer a reason to tunnel you 😏
This is true. I make it a point not to tunnel, but the moment someone tries to use endurance in an offensive manner by forcing a hit through bodyblocking, I consider it permission to tunnel.
-
A perk format I've wanted for killers for a long time is a mechanic like the following:
- Hooking a survivor for the first time generates a token.
- Removing a survivor from the game in any way removes a token.
- You gain x effect based on the number of tokens you have.
For example:
- Each token reduces repair speeds by 4%.
- Each token increases movement speed by 1.5%.
- When you possess 4 tokens, you see the auras of any survivors within 6 meters at all times.
And so on.
I think this would be great for game health, as it rewards killers for spreading hooks, can be gradual build up or all-or-nothing, and is self-limiting as the killer begins to win by eliminating survivors.
We already have one perk that could easily fit into this format with a couple tweaks; Grim Embrace.
It would be the opposite of an 'obsession' perk I suppose, more of a 'all must take a fair share' theme where you want to spread your pressure. But I'm not sure what you would call it.
-
Ripley because she gets Jonesy in the lobby.
-
Also the CGI for the last teaser, for what is basically just a teaser, never to be seen again (unless it ends up being part of the intro movie) was brilliant. Great work art team.
-
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650741#Comment_3650741
50/50 preferably. If it's over a little either way that's fine.
You have to remember that Hatch is bloating escape rates, people ses 40% and think, "Wow, they're getting out through the Gate" when a significant portion are not.
Also, DC's likely increase the kill rates a lot as well. Maybe not important for balance, but important to understand the average players experience
Likewise to the hatch, a lot of bonus kills are made during EGC by altruistc survivors, or by the killer being forced to camp.
If survivors have powered the exits, but a killer secures one kill by camping through all three hookstages during EGC, is that a fair kill? Seems the equivalent to a hatch escape to me.
-
@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650773#Comment_3650773
You could track escape attempts and not attempting 2nd stage struggle at 4-5 gens. Assuming they have the tools to do so.
It doesn't really seem that hard.
Do you count all cases, or just ones near the start of the game? What about when all survivors are slugged? Does self-sacrificing as the penultimate survivor to let the 4th survivor get hatch count?
-
@MrPenguin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650764#Comment_3650764
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650765#Comment_3650765
1 survivor self sacrificing ends up in the other 3 also being doomed causing collateral kills.
A killer letting someone go is only 1 escape. Assuming hatch escapes count.
Survivors self sacrifice a lot more than killers let someone go afaik.
I don't see it evening out, the kill rates would still be inflated.
Some killers only let one survivor go, some let them all go.
Some self-sacrifices doom the other survivors, but they can also be the 3rd survivor letting the 4th get hatch.
I'm not going to try and argue what is more likely than the other as it's impossible to say. But in both cases, it is impossible to discern where these have occurred without watching video footage of every single game ever played.
-
@MrPenguin said:
Wouldn't these kill rates be inflated due to the large amount of self sacrificing going on in the game i.e. Skull Merchant?
It'd be a lot more accurate to exempt those matches as you do the DC matches since both are effectively the same in terms of outcome.
- You can't determine who was a 'self-sacrifice' and who was a legit sacrifice.
- These are likely balanced out by games where killers let survivors go, out of pity or to lower their MMR. Admittedly you can't say that this occurs at the same rate, but both happen and both are relatively common. I for example regularly let the last survivor get hatch even if I could have caught them if I'd tried harder, because I'm usually content with a 3K.
-
@Caiman said:
Theme is the only thing that keeps this game interesting.
@HerInfernalMajesty said:
Personally I want the theme to win out no matter what changes it brings.
Theme is the USP of the game, what helps it beat out other asymmetrical elimination games, without the theme you wouldn't have anything to balance to begin with.
I think TC is right, but it's not the whole picture, and it's not considering the whole picture form the killer point of view either. Yes theme is a factor in establishing a lower-than-even win rate for survivors. The other factor is that this is an asymmetrical game.
Survivor and Killer win conditions do not correlate. A win for a survivor is to escape the trial, and to be sacrificed is to lose, it's a binary system, so it seems like 50/50 should be "fair". However the killer has a modular win condition with 5 outcomes, 0K, 1K, 2K, 3K and 4K. This is where 'theme' kinda blurs the lines a little too. It's widely considered that a 3K or 4K is a win for the killer, while 0-2K's are 'not wins'. This can't translate into a 50/50 benchmark, you have 2 win outcomes and 3 lose outcomes. This means that the ideal average isn't a 50% kill rate or a 2K game, it's halfway between a 2K and a 3K game, because a 3K is a win and a 2K is a loss. Halfway between a 2K and a 3K is 62.5%.
Some try to claim that a 2K is a draw, but that's not accurate. A draw is when neither side wins or loses, and yet 2 survivors have most definitely won in a 2K scenario. Much like how it doesn't 'feel nice' to be sacrificed even when some of your team mates escape, it doesn't 'feel nice' to only achieve half of your objective, its not a positive outcome. It doesn't feel good for a survivor game to end after 2.5 gens, it doesn't feel good to have half the survivors escape. And all of these arguments all boil down to what 'feels good' in the end.
And that's the problem. Survivors only feel like they're winning if they're escaping more than 50% of the time. Killers only feel like they're winning if they're killing more than 62.5% of the time. There's a 12.5% overlap where neither side is in a good place. That's just a fundamental property of an asymmetrical game that pits 4 v 1.
This is why survivor mains think the game is in a bad state, and why killer mains also think they're in a bad state, the average kill rate is above the threshold for a happy survivor, and below the threshold for a happy killer. It's actually in the ideal place, between 50% and 62.5%, but the ideal place means, on average, everyone loses more often than they win.
The real problem is player attitudes. People believe that they should be winning more often than not, which is not only not possible in a symmetrical PVP where you would expect 50% and not more, but considering the overlap described above, is even less likely in an asymmetrical PVP of this format. You need to approach the game like a survival horror, or a cat and mouse game (depending on which side you're playing), you shouldn't expect to survivor the majority of the time, surviving should be an ordeal. Similarly, you shouldn't expect to kill the majority of the survivors the majority of the time, sometimes you will only get one or two kills and the rest will escape. You need to expect to die more often than not, and you need to expect to not secure all the kills you want.
And that's where this marries up with theme. You're not only playing a game with the theme of a survival horror where the odds are against you, you're also playing an asymmetrical game where mechanically the odds are against you.
-
jfc I could tell it was coming and I still crapped my pants.
Also, at first I thought that was real video footage with a CGI monster editted in, but looking at the zip moving, is it entirely CGI? If so, kudos to the animation team for the lighting on the camping equipment.
-
This is an unpopular opinion, but Agreed.
Map offerings are one of the overblown things in this game that isn't as big of a balance factor as many like to believe.
Just like SWF, which stats now show are only 3% on average better than solo's, despite years and years of people complaining that SWF break the game and make killer impossible to play, Map offerings do not determine the outcome of your game.
Every map is viable, for every killer. Some are better suited than others, but none are impossible. If and when a map IS a problem, then it becomes a problem in all cases, outside of map offerings, and it gets flagged and rebalanced, just like Eyrie of Crows was.
And the fact that you only get tilted when a map offering for an unfavourable map is played, but not when you end up on that very same map by chance, proves that the map is not the problem, and if the map is not the problem, how can a map offering for that map be a problem?
They problem... is your emotional reaction to seeing the map offering. You get tilted, you play worse, you lose.
Lose the knowledge that the map has been chosen by a player and that goes away.
If map offerings were truly an issue, they would be reflected in kill rates. BHVR would see that X map has a higher/lower kill rate, and that difference is amplified when that map is played as an offering, and they would fix it. The fact that they haven't, despite years and years of complaints, just goes to show that the issue is not significant.
Keeping map offerings is important, they're a valid form of expression for game variety, and they do offer an advantage for certain killers that are necessary for those killers, such as stealth killers on indoor maps, or speed killers on open maps.
Yes, they do offer an advantage, an entirely fair advantage, just like playing an Oak offering, or a Coin offering, or a Reagent offering provides an advantage. Not an advantage that decides the game, not a significant advantage that it is a problem to game balance, an advantage that is entirely within the expected margins of the offering system.
Making offerings hidden is a good move. It's not going to make players magically understand that maps aren't broken despite their fallacious opinions, but it will be a healthy change for the game.
Another good change would be ensuring that map offerings draw from a wider pool of maps. People have the biggest issues with single-map offerings such as Garden of Joy or Midwich, while offerings like MacMillans or Azarovs go largely under the radar, because they including multiple maps with a variety of '-sidedness'. They need to stop releasing new maps in new realms, and add maps to existing underpopulated realms.
-
I'm gonna quote a post I just main in General Discussion
@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650370#Comment_3650370
If you're getting a minimum 3K every game your kill rate is above 75%. That's not what these stats show.
60% kill rate is still a 2K average on a per-game basis, which is a loss for the killer. To translate to an average 3K, the kill rate would need to be above 62.5%.
Win rate =/= Kill rate. This isn't a symmetrical game where if one side loses the other side must have won. In this asymmetrical game, it is possible for both sides to lose, and both sides to win. A 3K is a win for the killer and a survivor, a 2K is a loss for for 2 survivors and the killer. There are 5 players per game, without an even number of players you can't have an even win rate.
A win for the killer translates to 75% kill rate or more per gamen or 62.5% average. A win for survivor is that particular survivor escaping, or 50% average. It's not comparable.
In order to keep an even win rate, the kill rate has to be higher than 50%, and lower than 62.5%, purely based on number of players per game.
The problem is that because of this asymmetrical format, both sides lose more than they win. Killers are losing more than they win if their kill rate is below 62.5%. Survivors are losing more than they win when their escape rate is below 50%. There is a 12.5% overlap where nobody is happy, and that is the reason why both sides think the game is biased against them. That's why as players, we all need to accept that this is not a game you're supposed to win a lot. Winning is a challenge. For both sides.
This is precisely why I'm happy playing survivor, and playing solo survivor, even when I'm not escaping most of the time. I'm not expecting to escape 50% or more, if I was that would imply the game was far too survivor sided.
It seems like so few people get this. Everyone saying the game is grossly killer sided, or grossly survivor sided, or that kill rates should be 50/50, simply do not understand the game they are playing.
You should be fighting to survive, against the odds, not expecting that you will.
TLDR: The ideal kill rate, because this is an asymmetrical game, falls between 50% and 62.5%. The ideal centre of that is of course 56.25%, but there's a margin of error there for other factors like DCs, hatch escapes, etc.