Ryuhi
Ryuhi
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459899#Comment_3459899
That’s the game though. I get what you’re saying but I wouldn’t call extending chases arbitrary any more than I would call gen regression or slowdown perks arbitrary. (Unless they literally threw darts at numbers on a board and blanket slowed/sped things down/up).
The events after laying eyes on a survivor shouldn’t be easily replaceable by a random number generator that downs them after a range constrained amount of time. If they spent a perk slot and are injured, this gives them a minor haste bump. It helps the survivor loop, sure, but what else is their objective if you’re chasing them?
The game's balance isn't made for long chases, though. Long chases are supposed to have a cost of pallets as resources, but extending them with the only cost being temporary (being injured) throws the design philosophy off. Exhaustion perks do this as well but are considerably more limited by comparison, and when they weren't we saw how much issue they caused. My point is that these factors all add up and make the game harder and harder to actually balance, because they directly impact the time value imbalance already present in an asymmetrical setup.
This doesnt mean survivors cant have long chases or anything like that, but rather that they shouldn't get them passively just like the devs wanted gen slowdown/regression to not be granted passively. Its a matter of putting their own core design off balance.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459921#Comment_3459921
i think it is not variation that is bad. it is lack of reward for killer downing survivor that is bad. in fact you want variation in gen time. a bad killer that plays poorly should lose to gen-time. the issue with dbd is that you can be downing survivors lightning fast and still have close games as killer. this is especially true if you spread hooks very evenly.
by gen time variation i mean more the extremes: 90 seconds here, 30 seconds or less there, there is just too much possible variation to balance properly. The more perks and items throw that balance off in either direction, the harder it is to properly account for.
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@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459912#Comment_3459912
That's the main issue, gen speeds can vary so damn much game-to-game. I'm sure we've all had games as killer or survivor where no one seems to really care about gens and it takes ages for any to even start getting done. Likewise there are games where they get done really early into the match and just keep consistently popping no matter what the killer does.
It all comes down to survivors sitting down and doing them.
yep. basically the only thing stopping gens from going at least moderately quickly is survivors not doing their job. The killer can and should split pressure to slow them down, but in the end its 4 players attention span vs one player's average time to down.
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Yes and no.
Doing gens is the only objective that actively progresses the game for survivors. Gens definitely can go too fast, but that is more a failure of how wildly they can vary in completion time, and lack of other things required to finish. One of Pinhead's biggest strengths is basically forcing one person to do something else, after all.
Until they normalize gen speeds and or add objectives, itll never get better.
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@MDRSan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459439#Comment_3459439
This. What can be frustrating when playing survivor is that how the game is going to go for you is really only up to the killer. If they want to play as aggressively and efficiently as they can, at an absolute minimum they should always get a 1K and most often a 2K. Face camping and tunneling works - they’re also lame and not a particularly fun experience.
Survivors finally get a general purpose, not a lot of setup, speed bump of a perk and people act like it renders killers unable to complete a chase. No. It prolongs chases, sure - that’s the point. It does not give survivors a guaranteed, or even effortless win. You’d think kill rates dropped to zero based on these posts about Made for This.
The killer's time is extremely limited compared to survivors, as they can only be in one place at once. arbitrarily prolonging chases has a ripple effect that reduces their ability to split pressure to keep up with gen times, which is why there is a constant time management argument during every chase: sunk cost fallacy loses games, which is why its such a fragile thing to tamper with balance wise.
If there were no god pallets or extremely strong loops, the perk would be considerably less of an issue: but as it is, there are already enough forced time wastes in the game. They even had to speed up a lot of animations across the board just to keep up.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3457910#Comment_3457910
Dropping pallets *and* vaulting. The shock denies vaults too. And the Doctor finishes the power animation before the survivor does.
In addition to the slowdown, the shock needs to register before the survivor animation starts at all. Its very common to shock someone and then watch them vault/drop due to it registering slightly too late, to the point that many docs will try instead to trap people after the animation rather than prevent it. The issue MfT introduces is that every time a pallet isnt dropped, his shock does nothing and he loses or breaks even on distance instead of gaining slightly: his power becomes near useless in a scenario its specifically designed for. People have been begging for his range addons to be made basekit to help with loop distances as it is.
Might as well get his phd in bloodlust
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@Exerlin said:
It's a good thing a killer doesn't have to hold W behind survivors all the time. You have the option to leave and go to a gen or another survivor, you know. There are MUCH better things to do with your time other than follow a survivor from pallet to pallet.
Also, I find it really funny when people bring Hope into this equation. Like, y'all seem to want to nerf hope as much as MfT! Hope is really strong by itself, doesn't really need any other speed boosts to be useful, and is only activated in the late game. The killer has basically lost at this point or is about to lose, so who cares if a survivor can have +10% movement speed instead of +7%? Just admit that if Hope activates, you've already been outplayed.
I swear, if Sprint Burst was released today, the forums would be 90% about THAT perk instead
"outplayed" by gen times, indeed.
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Good, finally some good news on this after so many topics.
@MB666 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/378209/motion-sickers-rejoice
while i do like this upcoming change , this is a massive buff for killers that benefits alot from having LOS on the survivor to use their powers, like nurse / blight/ oni and billy
which technically will make nurse / blight more easier to play , shadowborn on those 2 killers is already pretty good , but now BASEKIT ? , I hope they nerf blight addons before doing that , I really hope soo.
on the other hand the bigger fov is gonna be really sweet on billy ...not complains there.
Not only is it not some massive buff, higher fov ruins any and all muscle memory with said killers, while also making sensitivity feel different and require reacclimation. Also higher FoV makes focused vision worse and peripheral better, making it easier to hit obstacles when using those powers. Its not a buff, its QoL.
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@MimiDBD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3444223#Comment_3444223
I understand that. Not really my issue. My issue is the majority who reacts like the match is over because of it. Could it be? Sometimes.....most times the party is just getting started.
3/5.5 objective vs 1/12th of objective is a pretty massive differential. Youre not wrong that the gens are designed to progress slower the less there are to work on/people on hooks, but in practice thats extremely hypothetical. I would call it less getting started and more needing to start sweating to catch up, which is why theres always so much doom and gloom about it (short of endgame builds i suppose.)
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@MimiDBD said:
Why is the 3 gen popping first chase crap showing up in so many threads? OP I'm sorry you are struggling but you are going for 12 hooks with m1 killers so things won't always be peaches and cream. Not to mention losing 3 gens means nothing. As each gen is completed your responsibility decreases. Meaning the map shrinks for you with each gen completed. The amount of stalemates I have caused at 2 or less gens is overwhelmingly high. Just remember you are handicapping yourself playing the way you are (which is fine I do the same) but the game will not always play out the way you want it to doing this.
Relax and go next.
unless the survivors are smart about which gens they start with, and preemptively break up any 3 gens. cant patrol 3 gens on opposite ends of mother"s dwelling.
3 gens popping in first chase is also a massive demoralizer, thats a significant chunk of objective in very little time. I get your point, but its not really that simple unless they allow a 3 gen to happen, and even then that can be pretty boring depending on how often it happens. Either way, hearing those three dings so early just feels really bad.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3312565#Comment_3312565
Yeah, again - it has to do with the way the game works unfortunately. I can think of a few ways to fix camping and slugging, but not tunneling so much.
Fixing the power dynamic shift. The game feels like it's balanced somewhere around 3.25 survivors, with survivors starting with the advantage and having an inevitible-yet-variable shift in the killer's favor. The fastest way that favor shifts is through making it a 3v1 with as little damage done as possible, while on survivor side you want to do as much damage as possible before losing one person to offset the disadvantage it then creates. They need to find ways to normalize the advantage shift to be less dramatic, reduce snowballing potential on either side and incorporate more rubberbanding (as in, making the advantage minimal for either side regardless of number of remaining survivors)
Too much of the match gets determined in the first few minutes as things currently are, which is an especially bad combination when loadout decisions on either side can vary wildly in strength.
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@maximo99ac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3311981#Comment_3311981
what rules? hahaha imaginary rules
Refusing to participate and preventing the game from progressing are literally against the game's rules. They are nuanced to separate legitimate and illegitimate cases, but the devs and community manager have chimed in on this multiple times across multiple topics. That said, this is similar to 3 gen defending in that avoiding being found is considered different from continuously doing nothing and hiding for extended periods of time, which is why people need to be less hyperbolic when discussing it in any incarnation.
@Volcz said:
As others have pointed out already, what do you expect survivors to do? Just do gens? Why, when the game's already over and there's no chance of progressing gens if the killer doesn't let up (most do not)? The gens are bait for survivors, more like.
The goal for them is to survive, anyone with a brain isn't going to just hop on a gen knowing the killer is patrolling & will immediately get in chase/down you.
You die if the server shuts down, just like you die if the EGC ends. You have to make at least some effort to continue the game if you are actually attempting your goal to survive. Again, this is where the nuance in trying to outlast a 3rd survivor ranges from legitimate to illegitimate: If the amount of time involved with zero interaction is excessive, both survivors are guilty. With the solo indicators being added this excuse will become even weaker, as you will have a lot more information on what your teammate is doing. If you see they are in chase and still refuse to work on gens for example, you are not attempting your objective.
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@Peanits said:
Everyone will reach a point where you plateau while playing the way you would typically play. This point will vary person to person: Some people are absolute legends and will climb really high without much effort, others will cap out fairly low (and that's okay!). This is exactly how MMR systems work. The game is trying to find a spot where your playstyle, whatever it may be, will work about half the time.
That said, if you try to play in a way that'll make you win more often, your rating will increase and you will get tougher matches, eventually plateauing again where your new strategy only works about half the time. The harder you try, the tougher your opponents will be. If you feel like you need to tunnel after tunneling to win, it's more than likely due to the fact that you've climbed above your comfort zone.
To be very clear, if you're hyper focused on winning more often than not, you will have to try (and try hard at that). The game will not try to give you easy wins. Winning consistently means the other side is losing consistently, and that means the matchmaking system isn't working.
Trying to boil the game down to an equation doesn't really work. In your example, you haven't factored in the time survivors spent saving their teammates. This is by far the most important factor in the game: Pressure. If you have one survivor on a hook, another in a chase, and a third going for a save, that leaves only one survivor left free to work on generators. This is also something you sacrifice by tunneling one survivor; the other three have nothing to do but generators since you aren't giving them a reason not to, so your generators will fly by. There's way too many factors to stick a number on it without grossly oversimplifying it.
All that aside, I really wouldn't assume you're at high MMR (not just you, OP, but anyone). The actual distribution of people across all MMRs is like a bell curve. There's a lot of people in the middle and very few at either extreme (high or low). The vast majority of people will fall somewhere around the middle. While I don't doubt that some folks here truly are playing in the high MMR range, the amount of people there are so low that it's a really bold claim to make when you can't even see your rating.
None of what you said is necessarily wrong, but it ignores some factors as well. For all the talk of survivors needing to go for saves being pressure, there are an awful lot of ways to heal and undo damage caused by anything short of a down, which makes injuring more meaningless when there are multiple medkits and a CoH or two in play. There is a very real sunk cost fallacy present in almost every chase in a large portion of the killer roster: If they can't spread injuries faster than people can self heal through multiple means, it doesn't actually apply any pressure (except in specific situations, like camping a hook while everyone is injured to force trades/hook state timer.) Especially since there is not only no penalty for repairing gens injured, but it can even give them a bonus to it. This is why a lot of killers get stuck in the mentality that they have to consolidate their pressure by overcommiting to chases, tunneling, etc: spreading pressure with anything less just feels far too fragile with how easy it is to completely undo any and all of its progress.
People have been calling this out since CoH was introduced, and even the numbers adjustments haven't approached the issue at all, especially since that constantly has the factors like travel time/distance ignored in snuffing boons similarly to how you pointed out they were ignored when it comes to concepts like saves. The baseline efficiency factors are offbalance and purposely so to accomodate more inefficient players, while having far too little in place to account for how off balance it can be with efficient ones. Telling people "you need to lose more to not go against that" isn't even a valid reaction when the softcap is apparently quite low: Those sweaty players who abuse everything they can still need to be able to get matches, so there will always be people who don't sweat in kind who get caught up in decreasing the matchmaking time for the sweats. Playing at off hours like 2am can feel like torture regardless of your MMR, so you can't even rely on the forced losses to try to get you into more reasonable matches on either side.
The fact that the MMR distribution is similar to a bell curve also supports this, as again, the top MMR need to be matched with a lower MMR just to be able to have a population distribution between both roles. Due to it being unable to be strict, it will always have tons of bad matchups irrespective of how individuals play. The main difference it creates is increasing the liklihood of coordination between survivors (be they solo or swf) and the killer being either too strong or too weak for their average opponents, depending on the distribution of role participants in their matchmaking pool. Instead of normalizing matchups they feel more stark than ever, so players are much more likely to assume the worst and use the loadout/tactics that give them the most advantage.
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@C3Tooth said:
Hey, Im in chase around Gen 2, do Gen 1 now.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/COE05M261686/untitled-1.jpg
Hey we finish Gen 1.
Alright Im running to Gen 3, do Gen 2.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/PZQ8FH5AKGL3/untitled-2.jpg
Hey we finish Gen 2.
Ok Im at Gen 4 now. Do Gen 3
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/HT6A236TP7JJ/untitled-3.jpg
- Survivor dont run into teammates Gen
- Survivor makes no mind game mistake
- Survivor accidently run into non-pallet title
- You stuck kicking a pallet and survivor W 200meter away from you in a 90meter length map
- A Teammate instantly spawn right infront of you to take hit for the chased survivor. Then instantly spawn back to their Gen
- Teammates instantly spawn to another Gen after finish one
- Then Gates instantly open after finish the last Gen.
- You fail to use your power
- You refuse leave chase
- You ignore a teammate on Gen when chased survivor runs pass them
- You fail to make a single success mind game.
If your game play goes like this...the conclusion is
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TI8Y0H3VX3CC/image.png
Somehow Killers always explain the game play that Survivors play like 4 Gods and Killers play like Carniflex homing to a target survivor.
While I appreciate the hyperbole, its simple: Gens take absolutely zero skill to do, and are only really limited by efficiency. The more organized and efficient survivors are, the faster they get done. The more killers are able to bust up that efficiency, the slower they get done, which amplifies the dynamic shift away from survivor and toward killer advantage. You could argue about killer not taking skill because of X reason, but they are always up against another player when interacting: Gens don't fight back, so the same is not always true for survivors.
For the record I also think that players on both sides wildly misjudge their own skill and even grasp of the mechanics of the game. Thats a major flaw that comes with outcome based focus in a game with extreme variables that detract from skill as the determining factor of said outcome.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Well, the good news is that no game of DbD takes place in a lab setting and a good amount of math immediately goes out the window when you factor in killer powers, tile spawns, gen spawns, RNG, and other things.
This is absolutely true. In both directions.
Gens can be slower and they can be faster. The baseline should always be a reasonable amount, especially when one side only needs to hold m1 and hit occasional skill checks. There's just an absurd amount of variables with too strong of an impact on any given match, especially when such a large number can be loadout focused on either side.
@hiken said:
i can agree to it but only when u play B tier killers and below, killers who can apply tons of pressure rather quickly can do it but i dont expect u doing it with wraith for example or pig... so i do get it and is normal.
This is also a great point, but begs the question: there's always plenty of talk about bringing solo and swf closer together, but why does that never extend to tightening the gap in killer tiers? The basekits and addons never seem to keep up with the game around them, and a lot of times they get made worse instead of better when they get reworked so it feels like a monkey paw scenario to even ask.
Basically the game needs a metric ton of normalization.
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@Entitled_survivor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309705#Comment_3309705
name those said issues that only SWF can abuse first
Do I really need to explain to you how perks like Fogwise become considerably stronger with communication? Unapproachable situations like double lockers with two people with head on in them? This game doesn't understand sanity checks, and players who are both good and coordinated find new things to exploit pretty much every patch. If you never play matches against coordinated players, look up matches of people who are. Even just having very high efficiency is enough to destabilize the game's balance, which is exactly why we have the gen rush vs tunnel arms race.
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@IWantCandys said:
Yes, maybe I'll manage then to escape more than 2 out of 20 matches. :p
But as you can already see from another thread, there are already killer mains (and I deliberately say mains because I think these people only play one role) who are crying because solo will no longer be an super easy stomp.
I just said what my survivor statistics look like. If I play Killer (and I am far from very good, I am a casual player) I could win almost every match at the moment. But it bores me. So I only go for 8 hooks (and I get 8 hooks without problem) and then let everyone go.
But of course, it's apparently a disaster that solo survivors are getting a little help now, and maybe surviving in the end every now and then.
If you purposely let everyone go every match, your MMR doesn't increase, so of course all your matches will stay boring and against worse survivors. Not arguing for or against anything you have said, just kinda pointing out that your anecdote is kinda flawed, kinda like how people who only play at 3am their time are likely going to go against nonstop sweats regardless of side or MMR. Its always important to consider other people's experiences can be wildly different than your own.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309843#Comment_3309843
I absolutely agree, killers should get hook counters and a better FoV, for starters. I've been asking for these for years.
Ye, I wasn't trying to single you out or anything, I was just giving examples of how these things don't happen. Its why I always end up being called a killer main just for advocating for parity, one side always seems to get far more consideration than the other. Even within the Solo vs swf gap, why is the balance discussion never about the trapper/sadako/etc tier vs nurse? Surely a more balanced and normalized killer roster would be just as easy of a starting point to then bridge the gap between solo and swf, but killers perform better at lower level so their spread gets continuously de prioritized and chipped away at so slowly the gap never really closes faster than the game continues to evolve around it. Nerfing some peak synergies nurse gets with her power is a step toward closing that gap, but when was the last SWF-centric nerf? OoO's rework?
I just hate how often these types of changes lead to new problems before the "second phase" takes effect, like the damn key/mori fiasco.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309816#Comment_3309816
Maintaining some sort of 'efficiency deficit' through the inadequacy between SWF and solo isn't tenable. This just makes it so killers have good games against solos, and bad games against SWF, and we're supposed to treat that as 'balanced on average'. That's not sustainable for solo survivors. 0Ks against SWF and 4Ks against solo's might be a 2K average, but it's not balanced.
It doesn't matter what other balance considerations are necessary, there are many and there always will be. Closing the gap between solo and SWF will ALWAYS be a good thing.
You're right, which is why the efficiency potential of SWF should be brought down as well. The game was designed to purposely have survivors be inefficient and disorganized, and a lot has changed since then for both sides, yet there are a lot of holdouts specifically relying on that lack of information. Why can't killers get some basic information for parity? The argument that information like hook counters, plague sickness progress, RBT timers, etc would be abused doesn't hold weight if we're relying on just trying it and listening for feedback, and all of them account for forced inefficiency through having to mentally track additional information. I'm just never a fan of how selective a lot of this logic can be sometimes.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309473#Comment_3309473
Making solo's more efficient is not a bad thing, in any sense.
A lot of the balance issues in this game are caused by the relative chasm between solo survivors and SWF groups, meaning that a nerf/buff to one effects the other a lot more, and therefore its difficult to balance them against killers.
The closer SWF and solo are, the better survivors as a whole can be balanced against killers.
It would be nice to add this buff in tandem with a general killer buff to make up for it, except for the fact that we don't yet know if this will even have a significant effect for survival rates.
Don't know if I agree. Efficiency is the essence of "sweat" in this game, due to how the lopsided dynamic works. The more efficient either side is, the less the other side has a chance, the less fun people have. I get the idea of buffing solos up to swf level and then balancing around that, the issue is that type of lopsided jenga balance doesn't work, especially when its not treated with even parity. An absurd number of problems in this game stem from half assed attempts at fixing previous problems, and it just keeps cascading because the devs refuse to address issues that affect both sides in an even manner.
Introducing things like the HUD update will still leave plenty of survivors pissed at how horrible and inefficient their teammates are, which will lead to a whole different form of efficiency focus/frustration with inefficiency/etc. Meanwhile it'll have a disproportionate effect on any killers who use oblivious/stealth making them even weaker regardless. By the time "the feedback is collected," If there's a new complaint du jour that'll outprioritize the affected killers, and it'll get pushed aside for whatever new thing gets the ol torches and pitchforks out of storage. They really need to stop with the lopsided adjustments when a lot of the core issues are deep enough to affect both sides evenly.
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@Entitled_survivor said:
SWF will never be nerfed ,you need to realize that and move on,,No game developers in their right mind would punish people for playing with their friends
So don't punish them for playing with friends. Focus your punishment on what can be abused while playing with friends without hurting its average use. Even the Nurse change is essentially nerfing every perk that she got disproportionate value out of in a way that only affects her if you frame it that way, which is the approach that could be taken toward SWFs as well. Limits to things like perk synergy, stacking, duplicates of strong perks, etc could easily be worked out if the same nuance could be applied. Even something as simple as item limits would be better than nothing.
I completely agree that the majority of SWFs don't need and should not be nerfed, its the potential that needs to be addressed.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309431#Comment_3309431
"To be fair, you haven't given any reason as to why you think that would be the case. There's a huge gap between 'Survivors can see what each other are doing' and 'The Killer is going to camp more because of that' - especially given half of all players are playing in some sort of group. It's become a bit of a cliche to link any change to an increase in camping/tunneling/gen rushing no matter how unrelated it may be. Unless you make a strong case for it, there's not much to discuss there."
Because that was the starter to a conversation. People don't like to read large paragraphs of text. It sets up a conversation for someone to reply "oh why do you think that?" To most people it's also obvious that it's going to do that so they would simply say "yeah I think we should also do this, this and this to prevent that".
I feel this is how conversation flow happens.
I don't feel it actually needs signficant pre-emptive explanation other than starting the conversation as you're saying as to most people this causing more camping/tunneling should be quite obvious. The change is going to significantly increase solo survivor gen efficiency making gens fly way faster and making killers feel the need to camp and tunnel more. I'm not saying solo information is necessarilly bad, I'm just stating an obvious additional issue that will come from this to start conversation to pre-emptively fix it.
A bit of devil's advocate here, but more coordination for free with survivors = easier efficiency = faster gens = more LCD strategies. I don't necessarily think its a direct correlation or anything, but making solos more efficient isn't a good way to dissuade killers from trying to out-efficiency them. It'll also end up with a lot more killers throwing by doing those strats poorly and being properly punished for it, so it just feels like a bad direction overall. Even the comment on it in the summary talked about how it would free up perk slots for solos, which... kinda defeats the point of those perks in the first place. More room for more second chance and gen speed perks I guess.
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309401#Comment_3309401
Eyrie changes, Knight buffs, Killer Adepts getting easier, and the both-sides changes like the in-game challenge tracker and ability to browse during the match queue don't improve the killer experience? Heck, they even changed the wiggle skillchecks to no longer grant extra progression.
I think you're overreacting to literally two of the many changes in this update, both of which are long overdue and comparatively not even that much.
I think they were talking about how the common "argument" against accessibility options for killers always comes back to "it will give them an advantage so we can't," so seeing things like the HUD update with zero counterbalance nor consideration for how it impacts multiple killers paired with a "we'll maybe make those adjustments later" attitude leaves a pretty sour taste. Knight changes and killer adept changes aren't going to stop people from getting sick while playing, and we've already seen that "freeing up perks" is considered a valid reason to change entire gameplay elements, so it just feels tonedeaf. Even the wiggle change, while generally overall positive for killer, makes an issue specific to killers who play on controller worse.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304759#Comment_3304759
Alright then, let me rephrase that. The moment they started getting more options for gen regression, the less chase and healing perks were needed. Oh and btw, I do know my chapter releases
2016 we got Thana and Ruin but they were very different compared to what they are today, especially Ruin. Dying Light was also a popular pick thanks to mori's being able to be used without even hooking anyone, and only later did they add the requirement of at least 1 hook. How ever it also slowed down healing, and because there werent many perks to stack as gen regression, killers opted to slowdown healing and faster chases. (Mangled add ons, machine gun build)
2017 brought Overcharge as the only slowdown, at this point in time how ever Ruin and Thana still reigned supreme as well as Mangled add ons. Since the options to slowdown gens were virtually non existent, killers still opted to slowdown healing. The amount of pallets on every map started to get recognized by Survivors as they started to learn how to loop better, making perks like Brutal Strength and Enduring a bit more valuable. Enduring was usually the go to how ever, since it delt with Decisive Strike
2018 brought one of the strongest perks for its time, PGTW. Ruin and Pop were seen in the majority of matches, as well as the newly reworked Tinkerer which helped identify which gen to kick. Sloppy Butcher was also buffed to apply Mangled. Discordance came out late 2018 as well, and was also a pretty popular pick. Id like to add that this was a point in time where DC penalties werent a thing. It wasnt uncommon to see a killer DC very early into the match just because their Ruin got cleansed.
2019 roles around and we get yet another strong perk for gens, Corrupt Intervention. Meta started to shift more towards more gen slowdown and less for chases and healing, thanks to the earlier nerfs to pallets, loops, and healing in mid 2018 and didn't feel as necessary. Surge was added and saw some use as well, but people still opted for Ruin/Corrupt/PGTW and another perk of their choice, usually BBQ.
2020 hits and we get reworked Ruin, as well as buffed Tinkerer. Corrupt/Tinkerer/Ruin and a perk of the users choice, usually Pop to have a backup if their Ruin got cleansed too early. Pop got replaced with Undying when The Blight came out, and that solidified Ruin's spot in the meta. Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer/Corrupt
2021 hits and the meta didnt really change all that much. Undying got nerfed but it still make Ruin last for a bit longer so it still had value to most. Deadlock came out, as well as Pain Res but it didnt see much use until later on
2022 comes around and buffs Dead Man's Switch. Since people liked bluetooth gen regression at the time, DMS/Pain Res/Deadlock/Corrupt were go tos. This doesnt mean Ruin/Undying was bad, its just this new combo was simply better since Survivors couldnt take it away from you. Pop also saw some use, especially when Call of Brine came out, but again people liked bluetooth gen regression more, so DMS/Pain Res/Deadlock/Corrupt it was
Later on in the year, we get patch 6.1.0 which I think we all know what it brought, the gen kick meta. It nerfed the hell out of both popular combos for bluetooth regression, being DMS/Pain Res and Ruin/Undying. It also massively buffed Eruption and Overcharge. I dont think I need to state the obvious, were currently in this meta and we all know it.
Very detailed and pretty accurate. You forgot one important factor though, the ways gen speeds and the birth of boons impact any of that data. CoH put a big dent in hit and run playstyles (making injuries without downs considerably less impactful) and multiple perks to help gen speeds like hyperfocus and prove thyself's updated form were introduced, as well as perks to replenish items like toolboxes.
You're not necessarily wrong, but there's a bit more to the picture that needs to be included as well. Gen times are just so terribly variable in either direction that whichever side relaxes first, loses.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303077#Comment_3303077
I think the core of the issue here is that you keep positioning a DC as a concede, like you're saying to your opponent in Magic or whatever "ah, you win, I concede", when it isn't.
The equivalent if you're playing a card game irl would be to stand up and walk away suddenly without a word, because that's what happens when you DC out of nowhere. Even if you were losing - especially if you were losing - you'd be seen as a bad sport and people would be rightly miffed that the game ended early.
I think the most ironic part is that there used to be more parallel scenario to actual conceding as killer in DBD, which were hatch standoffs and smacking survivors who refuse to leave at the end of the match. The EGC and being able to close the hatch were designed specifically so that such a concessions could no longer be forced, and the game would be put on a hard time limit/forced resolution if said scenarios occur. Killers can even open a gate when the gens are powered.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303076#Comment_3303076
Really? Because no one seemed to get upset when I said "I concede" at the last Magic: The Gathering tournament I went to. Nor does anyone seem to complain about it when their opponent presses the Concede button in Hearthstone or MTG Arena. They just take their win and move on, like a good sportsman should, instead of demanding that their opponent continue to helplessly squirm for another 5 minutes.
Thats wonderful, but this is a completely different game. I'm not even going to touch the sportsmanship comment.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303069#Comment_3303069
It's not a good look for you when you have to strawman me and use the most hyperbolic examples possible to make your own position seem reasonable.
I'm interested in playing against people; I'm just not so inconsiderate as to demand that my opponent keep playing after they say "You win".
I... what? You literally just projected your own fallacies onto me when I gave you an actual honest resolution for what you have been saying. If you are interested in playing against people, you're not allowed to proverbially flip the table if you don't like how things are going. When you do that in real life, people stop wanting to play with you, which is ironically what things like disconnect penalties are stepping in to provide. You keep claiming to not be inconsiderate when advocating for being able to be inconsiderate toward others who want to play the game they queued up for.
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The entire map is designed to blend everything as much as possible, which goes "nicely" with the less visually discernable pallet redesign. They're losing their balance in the fidelity vs functionality tightrope.
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@proxy_taxfraud said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303055#Comment_3303055
Funny how "low mmr" is always the cope out for everything.
There was literally just a topic about it where people argued both for and against spitefully denying it as the 4th survivor.
At low MMRs people are less likely to understand exactly what is happening, as well as the counter to prevent it. The higher you go, the more likely they are to have that game knowledge to deny it.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303062#Comment_3303062
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in all of those cases, the game doesn't count it as a loss if you disconnect. Which seems to be the root of most of the frustration people feel when their opponent disconnects in those games. Seems to me like we've got an easy solution that has something for everyone: Disconnecting counts as a loss. Leavers don't have to play out a match that they're not enjoying anymore, and the winners still get the rewards for winning.
Well, like it or not, this is Survivors' Rulebook for Killers behavior. Demanding that Killers conform to some arbitrary standard of behavior, because that would be more entertaining for the Survivors.
If you considering win/loss the only reason for games existing, why don't you just play against the bots? Honest question. It ignores every other aspect of the game other than the game saying whether you won or lost, including the progression system, consumable limitations, and interaction with other players. Most people use it as a training tool but it sounds like the only thing you want out of the game, so feel free to switch over to it exclusively. You won't even get a disconnect penalty for leaving early, so it hits on all sixes for you.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303053#Comment_3303053
Street Fighter seems to mainly apply DC penalties because the game gives you the benefit of the doubt on why you disconnected, and doesn't count it as a loss. If leaving a match counted as a defeat, I doubt people would be anywhere near as upset over rage-quitting.
You demand that players put their opponents' fun before their own, that they keep playing even when they're not having fun, and you have the nerve to accuse ME of not understanding the purpose of games? Silly me for thinking the main goal of playing a videogame should be that you have a good time. No, the Killer is purely here for the Survivors' entertainment. Should have read up more on the Survivors' Rulebook for Killers.
Street Fighter isn't the only example. King of Fighters even gives you a "fair play score" from 0-100 that flat out tells both you and other players whether you see your matches through to the end. The Dark Souls series flat out softbans you into quitter hell for disconnecting during online play, and even gives you a limited use item to revert the penalty in case it was caused by legitimate issues. There are many games that put match integrity above whether you win or lose, because again, most people want to actually play out matches.
And don't make this an us vs them argument. I get called a killer main here constantly for my stances on parity and how killers are usually at a disadvantage or otherwise left out of game design choices. I've also advocated plenty for survivors to not be able to suicide on hook for the exact same reason, it ruins the match for the other players. I even said earlier in this topic that it needs to be available for both or for neither, and that neither is the better option to maintain the game's ability to actually see its matches reach conclusions.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303010#Comment_3303010
And I already pointed out that it is NOT a false equivalence. Comebacks are not unique to Dead by Daylight, not in the slightest.
I never agreed to play out a game to its conclusion. The warning itself doesn't say anything about ruining the game for other people, it just says "Leaving a match counts as a defeat". And sometimes, you know what? That's perfectly acceptable to me.
And I don't understand why the concept of mutual consent is so foreign to people in this game. Games should only go on so long as both sides consent to keep playing. Consent can be withdrawn at any time, for any reason. I have no right to demand that my opponent keep playing when they don't want to anymore. And nor do you.
Really? Well, that's dumb. Unless disconnecting doesn't count as a defeat in those games for some unfathomable reason, there's no real reason to get upset about it if your opponent decides to leave.
I never said comebacks were unique to DBD, I said that it has an inherent advantage to either side by design which means that it is never supposed to be an even playing field. That is something that games purposely avoid when trying to be competitive, and the entire purpose behind concepts like balance. Even then, You're not allowed to quit matches early in Street Fighter because you're playing Zangief vs Guile. You are expected to play out matches regardless of advantage.
Also you're once again focusing on win/loss as the only purpose of playing games, when most people play games to actually play them. If you can't understand a concept that simple nobody is going to be able to help you understand this situation, so there is no point discussing it.
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@Illks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303010#Comment_3303010
Again, why tf should I care about tunneling/facecamping molerat? Besides, my character is about to die anyway, and watching mori-death on hook is something I DO NOT enjoy in the slightest. Not to mention it takes fkn forever.
Cool, go grab a drink from the kitchen while the animation plays out if you don't want to see it.
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@Illks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302890#Comment_3302890
And what if I don't care? I was facecamped, and tunneled, all game, from the blasted first hook. The killer did not spare a single glance toward other survivors either, even though he had plenty of opportunities. Now that I'm, once again, down, on death hook, and about to be hooked 3rd fkn time in a row, why can't I leave even a little bit faster? Why force me to watch ugly tunneling mug and suffer from anger-induced brain aneurism in the process?
Get better at the game so you aren't such an easy target for tunneling that badly. If you'll apparently be leaving the match pretty quickly if you actually try, why give up? If you get tunnelled and then disappear while on death hook, the killer hasn't successfully gotten anyone out. If you want help preventing aneurysms, try less hyperbole.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302976#Comment_3302976
So everyone who has ever conceded a match of StarCraft, Hearthstone, Magic the Gathering, Yu-gi-oh, Legends of Runeterra, Battletech, Darkest Dungeon (Butcher's Circus), World of Warcraft (Duels), XCOM multiplayer, Battlefleet Gothic Armada, Battlesector, Dawn of War, Tennis, Golf, Air hockey... any game or sport where you have no teammates, was toxic and entitled for doing so? Even when nobody involved got upset over it?
And how about everyone who ever unanimously agreed to surrender in League of Legends or CS:GO?
Yeah, I think know the games you're talking about with leaver queues. And notably, they're TEAM games. Where you actually have teammates who will likely lose if you leave.
Everybody benefits from having the option to concede a match in a non-team game. It is mutually beneficial for the loser who just wants to move on to the next match, and for their opponents who immediately win the game. If winning is not enough for you, if you think players should be obligated to put their opponents' fun before their own, THAT is peak entitlement.
I already pointed out that is a false equivalence. Don't try to dress an argument up to attack it. This an asymmetrical game that is designed specifically to have a shifting power dynamic where the advantage changes, by design, from one side to another. By design there will always be points where one side has an advantage over the other. There is also never a "lone barracks in a corner of the map" scenario for the killer especially, they are never that declawed even by the worst of skill matchups due to multiple mechanics that are built into this game.
Not only that, but there is a way to forfeit the game, it just carries a penalty for being unwilling to play the rest of it out. You don't even need to pull the plug on your internet or anything that drastic, its a literal button ingame. It carries a penalty because you are taking back your agreement to play out a game to its conclusion, so your disruptiveness is punished accordingly.
Do you know why the "team" stipulation keeps coming up? Because quitting ruins the game for your team. Quitting also ruins the game for your opponent, which have consumables on both sides (addons, offerings) which get used up regardless of how the match plays out. Thats on top of the most basic of considerations that many people want to actually play matches more than they care about winning, which I honestly don't understand how or why that seems to be a foreign concept to some people.
Edit: Also since you hyperbolized adding things like tennis and air hockey, yes, even 1v1 games have disconnect penalties. Fighting games especially have been cracking down hard on them in more recent years, for the same reasons I have provided.
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@RakimSockem said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302974#Comment_3302974
Oh I agree. Getting that Tombstones Myers achievement was an absolute pain in the ass and one of the most frustrating DBD experiences I've had. This wasn't meant to be a Survivor vs Killer post, but a question of why the playerbase in general chooses to go out of their way to inconvenience others
I mostly mentioned it because he needs to spend 8k worth of addons to even attempt it, when challenges generally have little to no investment requirement. It just feels like its not worth being upset over when the community's attitude is something that has been around for ages, and likely won't change as long as it is both allowed and encouraged. This just isn't a game that encourages sportsmanship sadly, even though there are plenty within it who still try.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302969#Comment_3302969
So let me get this straight: Conceding a match because you're not having fun and don't want to keep playing that match is entitled and toxic? Not putting your opponents' fun before your own is entitled and toxic?
Do you have the slightest idea how many people you just called entitled and toxic?
Yes, because you leaving the match ruins the match for the other players still in it. Why do you think there is a penalty on quitting matches in the first place?
And yes, I do have a pretty good idea. That doesn't make it any less accurate, and it is a very well known issue with this game especially. Many games even have "ragequit hell" matchmaking where people who act like that get separated from people who play their matches out and only get matched with each other instead.
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What do survivors lose by being the 4th mori from a tombstone myers? The consensus in that topic was a lot of people not caring about others. That type of attitude is in the entire community regardless of side.
That said, they might not have even known that was a challenge, btw. I don't think its worth getting worked up over, especially since the commitment required is pretty low. You got it in the end as well, so at least its over with :)
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302963#Comment_3302963
Except when you're not having fun on the journey anymore and would like to move on to the next one, apparently.
And yet the soulsborne games seem to have done quite well, last i checked. Frustration leading to catharsis is a part of the concept of delayed gratification, which is an important part of competition. I find it ironic you called anyone entitled earlier when having a stance like this.
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@HugTheHag said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302683#Comment_3302683
I agree that it's less useful than the survivor version, but i's not useless either. As killer you can herd the survivor towards certain zones. By choosing from which side to break pallet for example, or cutting their way running towards the loop they were aiming for. On some killers it's okay and on some killers it's not, but that's nothing new about perks.
It can also let you know if you're about to hit chained loops and if you should drop chase.
So it still has uses in my opinion. It's just more advanced and macro play than Windows, but not enough value compared to other killer perks for it to be brought. =)
Its generally not useful enough for the perk slot is the bigger issue. People even in this topic have made that argument against windows, but its especially true with zanshin. Its extremely hard to justify when too many perks feel either necessary due to the game's design, or multiple slots taken up by necessary synergy combinations for certain perks. Its not so much that its worthless as it is not being worth its minimum "cost" of a spot.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302950#Comment_3302950
DCing is the exact opposite of wasting other people's time. It turns a 7-10-minute escape attempt into as little as 2-3, if that.
The Killer is not obligated to help Survivors finish archives, or dailies, or anything else. If they were, then where's the penalty for downing a Survivor when they're trying to pick up a glyph?
Games are supposed to be about the journey, not the destination.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302912#Comment_3302912
DbD killers also can open the gate once the gens are done and the game is effectivelly over
So quiting to prevent a already lost match from dragging out is already in the game
And it doesn't change anything that you end the game for 4 times as many people as the games you said
To many people would just leave the moment something didn't go their way
Its not exactly the same, since the gates can only be opened when powered. By comparison, survivors can conceed <1 minute into the game. If the survivors refuse to power the last gen for whatever reason, the server's time limit becomes the only restriction. If gates could be opened by the killer before gens were powered, that would be correct.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302929#Comment_3302929
I just listed several that don't. Because you don't have any teammates in those games.
Indeed, the DbD community is incredibly entitled. Especially Survivors who think they're entitled to prolong the match and torment the Killer for as long as they like.
You've been listing constant false equivalences, none of which have anything to do with asymetrical design.
I can understand both sides of this argument, yours is that there should be a means to concede while the other is that you should play matches out regardless of whether you're winning or not so long as it is still possible. As killer in DBD, there is nothing (currently) that can be done to make it physically impossible to kill survivors: There are ways to stall things out tremendously, but even things like the EGC and bleed out timers are designed to make sure that lethality should never be impossible. That said, there is a very disproportionate ability for survivors to decide they don't want to play out the rest of a match, and force themselves out of it with zero penalty, most commonly via killing themselves on hook.
The killer side gets trapped in games relatively because they have no way out. Survivors abuse their way out which they shouldn't have. Parity in either direction should absolutely be the case, and in most people's eyes, having to play out matches is the more viable solution since it results in an actual playable game. Don't jump to hyperbolic "chaining people to desks" nonsense over a simple concept that has existed in competition for much longer than video games as a medium.
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Lowest Common Denominator, aka things that are simple but effective like camping and tunneling, or rushing gens.
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Its not a matter of making him purposely weak, its making him purposely safe. If there's anything survivors hate, its "not having counterplay" to any given mechanic, because many of them think of the game as being a series of 1v1's vs the killer instead of a 1v4. Thus the knight was designed with almost every single aspect of his power leaving less surprises for the survivors than the killer himself, and the obvious anti-anti-loop strategy of just running away from the loop when he's setting up became the obvious and boring solution every time he stabs his sword down. He basically has the counterplays vs both spirit and artist while having none of their strengths, so he only ends up being good at using his power for LCD strats like camping hooks and 3 gens (which he ends up disproportionately good at, to both sides' frustrations.)
They were so unwilling to take risks with his power at the thought of it being oppressive in practice that it ended up being both boring and oppressive at specifically already oppressive scenarios.
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@Coordi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299321#Comment_3299321
The Feedback forum is ready and waiting for you to leave your Christmas wishes for the team! 🎄
Its not a matter of after the fact feedback, these changes kinda gut their powers conceptually. I was just hoping that was taken into account with these changes instead of just ignoring them.
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@Coordi said:
BHVR really said "Happy Holidays, Solo Queue!"
Are stealth killers getting anything for the holidays as well?
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@RainehDaze said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299011#Comment_3299011
So, we're weighting the ~1000 max BP you can get from being carried once if the hook is sufficiently distant but not distant enough to get free
vs
Potentially an achievement, and if this run is failed, the cost of two Iri addons (8000 BP minimum, ignoring all the other filler to have these come up).
From a purely economic perspective, it's a net negative (they have to spend another 8k BP) if you sit in the locker. From every other one, you're just timewasting.
Your argument has amounted to 'maybe I'll get 1k BP!' Really? You're going to sit in a locker for an hour over 1k BP? You could squeeze multiple games in there. You don't want someone else to maybe get an achievement or sense of satisfaction that much that you're willing to stop playing for an hour, and your justification is 'there's 1k BP in it for me in this game'?
People will run the most rigorous mental gymnastic obstacle courses to convince themselves they aren't being spiteful and bitter in this community, it doesn't even surprise me anymore. Being selfish isn't directly against the rules, but people want to rationalize it so hard to convince themselves they aren't. It's kinda concerning when you take a step back. This isn't even about something balance related or anything like that, its just being willing to waste everyone's time to deny the other side out of spite. Its why I always just took the swing or took the leap and risked getting grabbed during hatch standoffs, the only thing being accomplished is bitter denial. I'd rather the one who has a forced consumable investment get the goal, especially when it is very obvious that is their intent.
Like just alt tab out for the animation or go up to the kitchen and grab a drink or something while it plays if it bothers you that much. The only other possibility would be if it bothers you that they achieved their goal that much, which would be spite.
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@kisfenkin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298808#Comment_3298808
So, in your example you think the killer can magically read the mind of the survivor and vice versa to communicate that they won't kill the other etc. That's just flat out stupid. All it takes to be, "Working with the Killer" is to purposefully lead the killer to the other survivors. That's it. Then you are by definition working with the killer, whether the killer gives you hatch or let's you go is always entirely up to the them and you cannot possibly know if you will be rewarded but you will DEFINITELY know that you cheated when your teammates report your stupid cheating actions and you get banned for it.
Actual Teaming usually involves messaging when possible, without going into detail people will open communication channels or use gestures ingame to request or otherwise confirm with each other (similar to how people do it with farming requests.) If your definition is as loose as leading them to other survivors at all (note that purposely has been added, when bond does not even have to imply that.) Then you must include things like unsafe unhooks (they're leading the killer to the hook, after all) and pretty much any other bad play that does not diminish the killer's pressure directly.
Since this seems to be something that has been disproportionately bothering you, I would recommend running Empathy or Bond, and maybe Windows. The first two will give you a very good idea of where the killer is when in chase (especially if nearby) and will give you additional time to not end up in the path of an ongoing chase, and windows will make you better at having an escape plan for where to go quickly and efficiently to reduce the liklihood of the killer detaching after you. Just keep in mind if you make any remotely bad plays you will end up being the one accused of working with the killer, according to people like yourself. Cheers.
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@kisfenkin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298825#Comment_3298825
Using bond to lead the killer directly to another survivor to shake the killer off, is cheating, working with the killer, and if you are doing it you are a CHEATER.
You can yell it as many times as you want, but again, I tried to make the nuance involved in whether it is sandbagging/teaming or not as clear as possible. Its one of multiple rules where severity and intent play a role in whether they constitute foul play or not.
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@kisfenkin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298229#Comment_3298229
You just admitted that I am 100% right. "When a survivor and the killer are working together, the killer will let the survivor live in exchange for ratting out their teammates locations,"
That's what I have said multiple times, yet you still say, "no, you're wrong."
Which proves that you are trolling. Also against the forum rules. Good luck with that.
Sharing the killer's attention isn't the same thing as teaming with them. Running up to a locker someone is hiding in and pointing, or bodyblocking a teammate to purposely prevent them from escaping the killer are examples of teaming. Leading them to your general area, on accident or on purpose, isn't the same thing. I think thats the point they're trying to make.
Edit: Also that teaming takes actually working together, I.E the killer "rewarding" betraying their team. What you're describing sounds more like its akin to sandbagging and/or griefing (which can still easily be against the rules, like the above examples,) teaming would be more symbiotic/coordinated by comparison.