Rydog
Rydog
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/76980/your-game-is-not-enjoyable-in-this-state
What hardcore SWF are you talking about? Nurse is the only problem that this game has.
We should now advocate to nerf nurse,spirit &billy. I mean these devs they nerfed perks like "fire up" cause it was too strong. So yeah lets get the rest of the killers nerfed further.
You're missing the forest for an incredibly specific tree.
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To the OP's point (hi @Gardenia we should play more soon!), yes, it sucks that skilled players have no incentive to NOT intentionally de-rank so that they can coast through easy games versus mismatched opponents for kicks.
The developers should fix this by attaching clear meaning and rewards to the ranking system, kinda like how every other competitive game with a ranking system has done. It's their fault it is this way, and they deserve every ounce of criticism for allowing it to persist for three years.
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@NMCKE I support the idea and the notion of human beings acting with kindness towards each other, I really do. But we both know it is not realistic to expect or plan around good and unselfish behavior in an anonymized online space. We could get into a whole big discussion about how this has impacted the world for the worse in the last couple of years especially.
But in this specific instance -- a competitive asymmetrical video game where frustrations run high and both sides demonstrably feel slighted constantly -- it is down to the game mechanics to encourage and enforce the kind of behavior that the developers feel is appropriate for their user base to exhibit.
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@NMCKE It is unknowable to you or me or anyone else why another player is choosing to build the way that they do. You're applying a moral judgment to a game mechanic, and it's easy to draw conclusions about someone's motive or attitude when you're treating your assumptions as fact.
It is not realistic to expect the game to police players' feelings or perceived sportsmanship. All the developer can do is encourage good behavior and incentivize it via the game mechanics that are presented to the players. If killers were somehow meaningfully encouraged to avoid face camping, for example, that would be a positive step. If disconnects were harshly punished as a deterrence, that would be a positive step.
I get as annoyed as anyone when, say, I get flashlight stunned multiple times in a match. We can probably agree that this experience does not feel good. But this is a game mechanic that is being deployed strategically, as intended. It is part of the game that is working as intended.
You also can't expect strangers playing with each other online to exhibit boundless kindness in an adversarial game. It just doesn't work like that. The game mechanics themselves are all that we have to back up and incentivize good behavior.
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@Peanits Yes, it would be great if your live balance team could make it a priority to seriously evaluate the current perk grind.
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@Peanits Knowing that some teammate is off in a corner doing nothing isn't important. Knowing that someone is working on a gen, or healing, provides valuable information that can help to guide your priorities.
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How many lucky games do you suppose you would need to go from the bottom of rank 12 to the bottom of rank 8?
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@NMCKE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/592013#Comment_592013
It's slightly the playerbase in my opinion because one person made another person upset - They didn't consider the other player's fun just a little bit. This cause an avalanche of unfun games since players don't take each other in consideration.
Example
Nea got camped and got upset because the killer didn't give them a fair chance to escape.
Next game: Insta-heal with Tryhard perks.
The killer gets upset with her OP items because they didn't have a fair chance to win.
Next game: Iridescent Hatchets with some NOED.
The survivors get upset with her Iridescent hatchets because they got completely dominated.
Next game: They all use Insta-heals with Object of Obsession.
Etc... You get the point.
If the playerbase would come together, this game would be a lot better. However, I'm not saying it's solely the playerbase's fault, but we are partly to blame.
But, that's the players working with what is in front of them. Insta-heals, and strong perks, and Iridescent Hatchets, and NOED, and Object of Obsession are all intended game mechanics that are meant to be used in order to improve one's odds of winning.
Just because a player uses one of these things out of frustration doesn't mean that the mechanics suddenly aren't working as intended. I can take Object of Obsession into a match in order to try to leverage its aura because I think it's a good perk (what I in fact have done), and I still theoretically stand the same odds as someone who picked it in some sort of blind rage.
Broadly, competitive players are going to pick the thing that they think gives them the biggest advantage. The cynical view of this is that they are acting selfishly, but the realistic view is that this is just what is.
And like I said, I do think that some of the mechanics incentivize toxic behavior (such as face camping), and should be changed to deter the worst kinds of players from completely shutting someone else out of the game. But, like, picking this or that perk is not, in and of itself, inconsiderate or wrong.
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The players can only work with what is in front of them. It is not the audience's fault that the game is saddled with these issues, or that toxic behavior is incentivized by some mechanics.
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1) Replace the rank reset with a rank decay, as stated. Ranks can fall as low as 16 under this system (or if you're rank 17 or lower, down to rank 20).
2) Outside of rank decay, you should be ABSOLUTELY LOCKED TO YOUR RANK RANGE. i.e., once you get to green ranks (9-12), you cannot ever fall below rank 12 (the lowest green rank) for losses. Same goes for purple ranks (5-8) and red ranks (1-4).
3) In SWF groups, the highest-rank survivor is used as the setpoint for the killer rank range to search for.
Doing this would force people to completely stop playing the game in order to truly de-rank, and it would shackle them to their own true skill level in terms of matchmaking, and it would subject out-of-bounds teammates to games versus better killers if they insist on playing with friends who are out of their league.
Now, obviously, I can't sit here and say "This would solve every matchmaking problem," because I dunno how it would work in practice. But I bet it would at least be an improvement.
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@Vassyle said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/591712#Comment_591712
Very simple answer, run Spine Chill, is the most underrated perk in the game and also the best that could exist. Just watch some PainReliever videos and u will see how good it is, as it counters every stealth killer and helps u a lot in a chase when u get used to the perk
I, like PainReliever, also refuse to play survivor without Bond and Spine Chill. Bond is the best survivor perk in the game, full stop. And Spine Chill is to survivor as Whispers is to killer -- that is, once you learn to read it and really understand the powerful radar that it gives you, you'll feel crippled without it.
And yeah, it really helps vs. Spirit mindgames -- husks don't register as being the killer, so you'll know if she's trying to trick you.
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Wraith is great for teaching fundamentals of chasing, learning maps, dealing with loops, learning movement speeds and lunge ranges etc. You basically HAVE to learn the fundamentals, because Wraith has nothing else to lean on.
He's definitely the first killer I would recommend to totally new players.
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@DrDeepwound said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/591599#Comment_591599
so you dont want to hear the killer, but think the killer wants to hear a bunch of mouth breathing teenagers?
Pretty sure no one said or even implied this.
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@LordGlint said:
The biggest gripe I have is "the mindgames" at pallets. I put this in quotes because the Spirit player isnt losing anything by just standing there watching. Its up to the survivor to simply GUESS at which point the killer stopped standing still. Thats not a mind game, thats a guessing game.
Beyond that, lemme ask what you think @NuclearBurrito. If a Wraith could simply run up to a survivor while cloaked, thereby having the extra speed with the cloak, and hit them without ringing the bell first... would this be fair? Thats pretty much what happens with Spirit, except theres no shimmer.
I want to argue, here, that nailing this with Spirit requires a developed skill -- that is, consistently and correctly intuiting survivor location from environmental cues -- and hence should be powerfully rewarded to a player who has put in the effort. Wraith can see survivors while cloaked, so it's not a fair comparison.
Shouldn't killers with a higher learning curve (Nurse, Hillbilly, Spirit, Huntress, maybe Hag) be harder to deal with in the hands of a player who has learned their really specific idiosyncrasies and can consistently execute?
And, broadly speaking, the survivors as a group have the advantage, because the clock is always against the killer. So, shouldn't it be appropriate for killers to undoubtedly have the upper hand in individual chase scenarios? In other words, big picture favors survivors, but specific encounters favor killer.
I suppose I am arguing this as my position because I sort of "softly" believe what I am describing to be an appropriate balance target. But I'm throwing it out there as an open question, because, I dunno, what does everyone think? Spirit certainly seems to be a fulcrum for this particular philosophical debate.
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I think it's unfun that she moves at 110 instead of 115.
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@LordGlint It's a good theory. I think something would also need to be done to manage ranks better, though. I wish players would get locked every 5 ranks or so (i.e. you can't derank past 10 once you achieve that rank), and give players an incentive to strive for a high rank each season.
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@Seltas0208 said:
As a hag main all I'll say is. Expect traps to be placed in completely random places, these tips you've been given will work but hag mains also know this and will plan accordingly.
And also just avoid the killer shack, there's a 80% chance if their being a trap in it
I tend to place traps in non-obvious places -- not right on pallets or at windows or underneath hooks, but in avenues of ingress. In grass that survivors are likely to run through at some point, along escape routes from hooks, and so on.
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@LordGlint said:
@Rydog I dont think there really would need to be that many changes to killers besides to stop pretending like the blindness effect or perks similar actually do anything. If survivors end up becoming strong enough to effectively "bully" a killer player, those teams would just end up becoming a different rank and not play against that player.
Eh, I'm of the mind that killers should have a supremely easier time actually locating survivors, just in general because the clock is always against the killer. Baked-in comms would make that a lot easier for people to accept as a balance necessity.
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@MonsterInMyMind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/591513#Comment_591513
You're missing the actual problem EVERY team is going to have free information its basically going to make every game more boring because you are going to have solos have free information the point is not them being good or boosted its basically taking the fun of playing against solos away and instead just making swfs every game i dislike the idea and i probably wont be playing if this releases its gonna take all the fun away.
Again, discussing in good faith: The idea is that they would work to balance the killer experience around this, too.
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@Condorloco_26 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/591490#Comment_591490
You're right. It seems I'm overly pessimistic about this idea in particular.
I may not type everything that goes through my mind in that exact moment, but it kinda goes like this:
I don't see it happening, in the first place. I see a lot of cons aside from the possible hassle that it would be to mute 4 people every match.
Why do I think like this? DbD was not designed around comms. Are you really asking them to rebalance 16 killers and all their perks, mechanics and maps, just to fit the idea? Just look at how long it took to rework Freddy. Springwood. 2 maps A YEAR.
The devs know people already use 3rd party apps or PSN party chat, and the Xbox equivalent to communicate. Why would they load their backs with this unnecessary burden?
The game needs to be balanced around the expectation that survivors are communicating, yes. Because they are, whether you and I are personally doing it or not, and it impacts play in ways we don't necessarily see. If that's not taken into consideration by the developers, then I think everyone is just continuing to pretend it's not there.
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@Condorloco_26 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/591462#Comment_591462
They are related, in the sense that the OBVIOUS features that should be in the game, are being OBVIATED, left out, for some reason.
But, if you don't want to connect the dots, it's as simple as this:
Don't count on them adding an obvious feature.
I'm tired of having to mute 7 different profiles each time I go into a match in Friday the 13th, for example. Is there a button to mute EVERYONE? = No.
Do I expect DbD to add the button right away, in case they even add the thing? = No.
I hear you, but I have to assume some sort of good faith as a baseline when discussing ideas like this -- i.e., I naturally assume you could disable this feature if it were integrated into the game. Just going NO DON'T, and squashing good ideas because you're counting on the developer to completely botch it is not productive.
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More positive gestures would be nice -- salute as you said, cheer, thumbs up, bow, etc.
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@Condorloco_26 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/591414#Comment_591414
Yeah. With your logic, there's also a strong likelihood for having a chase music volume slider, colorblind options, ranked and casual modes, the ability to stay playing as an SWF group, etc, etc.
I don't take anything for granted in DbD.
Except, that it's full of 12 year olds.
None of those things have anything to do with what we're talking about. I understand things like the curated audio and visual experience (music volume and sound effects being set to a specific level for a reason; brightness setting being controlled by a consumable item). None of those are the same as external voice comms, which is an outside agent intruding on the game experience.
Any built-in voice comms would would have to come with the option to disable the feature, but I don't think that's a reason to NOT consider it.
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@invira_zero I get what you're saying, and I agree that there would inevitably be teammates who get salty because someone wasn't using voice comms.
The problem at hand is that voice communication is a factor that impacts the game experience whether it's in the actual game or not, and nothing else they add would ever address or really correct the issue in quite the same way; it would just be a bunch of Band-aid fixes. When it comes down to it, this is a case of reality intruding on the intended play experience, but what can really be done balance-wise?
I'd love to see both of our suggestions implemented, frankly. More in-game communication tools, and voice comms for people who want it. If post-game chat goes south because someone didn't use comms, you can always just say gg and leave (and I feel like this is a practice a lot of us have had to develop for this game anyway!).
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I feel like people in this thread have their heads in the sand, and are just insistently ignoring the strong likelihood that you'd just be able to disable and ignore this feature if it were implemented, if you don't want to use it.
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idk why but everytime i go against a hag it usually results in a snowball and all of us are dead with barely 1 generator done, so how do i counter hag during a chase?
Crouch-walk more. The Hag's great strength is that she preys on our human impatience; I suspect a lot of people just don't want to take the time to be that slow and meticulous about their movement.
One specific tip: Whenever you are either unhooking someone or BEING unhooked, HOLD THE CROUCH KEY the entire time it's happening, so that you never return to a standing position. I can't count how many times I've seen someone trigger a nearby trap the second they're off the hook, because they didn't crouch.
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@invira_zero I really think the game would benefit from certain perks being baked into base kits (like, say, Bond for all survivors and Whispers for all killers). And, it would be great if the HUD icons showed fellow survivors what teammates are up to (working on a gen, getting chased, hiding in a locker, and so on). There ARE a lot of options to smooth out the overall experience.
What I'm saying about voice comms is this: Organized groups already use it, and this is a detriment to both killers (since the game wasn't designed or balanced around it) and solo survivors (since they aren't getting any teamwork benefit out of a SWF group's communication). When I say it would close the gap, I mean that it would benefit all survivors equally (SWF or not), and it would force the developers to balance the game's killer side more honestly, since they would have to move forward KNOWING that voice comms roundly impact the whole experience.
The way I see it, no one loses out. Anyone who would prefer not to use voice chat could just disable it and never have to think about it, but it would, I suspect, inevitably drive balance in a better direction for everyone. As it stands, whether you or I or anyone else personally prefers to use voice comms or not, it IS impacting our play in largely invisible ways. Making voice chat a base feature of the game would add a lot of much-needed visibility to that impact.
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Crossplay would be so broken in this game. Just imagine PC keyboard+mouse players vs. console players.
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If they implemented this, there's no way you WOULDN'T have the option to turn it off and just ignore it if you choose to.
In-game voice comms would make the game more honest all around about where the balance stands, it would help to close the gap between solo and SWF play, and it would be a first step toward closing the gap between survivor and killer lopsidedness.
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@Rivyn said:
Because apparently if they hotfix it now, they have to redo the entire build being used for the next patch. At least, that's what was said in a similar thread over a week ago. Nothing we can do but suffer though the exploiters. Not like the devs actually throw out bans for this. At least, doesn't seem to, seeing as everybody and their sister is using the exploit.
What the hell kind of justification is this? They can't hotfix exploits?
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Would you ever consider removing perk tiers, so that each perk only has one version?
With 65 total survivor perks and 60 total killer perks, this would alleviate the most oppressive aspects of the grind, and actually make prestige a tempting decision, while still requiring players to put time into building up characters.
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I wish @Peanits would provide a clear and direct answer to why they don't just remove perk tiers.
With 65 survivor perks and 60 killer perks in the game (most of them gated behind specific characters), new players still have a lengthy development process for each character they are interested in. Compressing perks down to a single tier apiece would also make prestiging characters more tempting, even for characters that are already "finished."
I just wish they would address this.
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I wonder if these problems are even solvable within this genre. It's essentially meant to make people angry at each other by design, because each side is given frustrating mechanics that are hard or impossible to play around. It's easy to feel like a victory wasn't earned, or like a loss was not preventable.
There are plenty of other competitive games -- Hearthstone, League of Legends, whatever -- where I can look back on a match and go "Well, I got outplayed." It's harder to consistently feel that kind of closure here, and I think it's a genre-wide problem. Friday the 13th often felt quite the same way.
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Yeah, they announced a couple months ago that this is, unfortunately, going to be a thing.
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Not against the rules, but they should definitely disincentivize this kind of behavior.
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Instantly teleport anywhere on a cooldown, a sense power that he can feather to see all survivor auras, Spirit phase walk but he can see survivors the entire time, and an ability to disable TR on a cooldown. These would slowly unlock in this order, the longer the match goes.
Also, be can throw knives like Huntress, and set a limited number of traps like Trapper.
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@Atrushan88 said:
@Peanits One big thing about "tunneling" is that survivors often unhook people directly in front of the killer. This happens all the time. Survivors don't know when to unhook and when not to unhook, as there's nothing telling them when or when not to, and they keep that thought process as they go into more and more games. While unhooking in front of the killer should not be something that just can't happen at all, I feel like something should be done so that people can not be unhooked in front of the killer if they don't want to, because this is what leads to what other people call "tunneling", and being farmed off the hook. About 5 times out of 10, I'm unhooked when I know it's a bad call, but I can't stop it. I immediately get put back on the hook because they don't have borrowed time, and then people claim the killer is the problem, when in fact it was the survivor who caused that situation to happen. This is one thing that I absolutely feel needs to be improved in order for the game to get better. Being farmed is not fun, and it's not the killer's fault someone is unhooking me in front of him. So if you're looking into tunneling, please keep this in mind. Survivors do not need to be able to unhook in front of the killer's face and get away with it, something needs to be done to incentivize them NOT to do something like that unless they absolutely have to, whether it be a tutorial with different situations, or a mechanic.
The Borrowed Time mechanic should just be a one-time thing that's baked into every survivor's base kit. This would incentive the killer going after the unhooker rather than the unhooked.
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It would help a lot if some "must have" perk features were simply baked into the base kit of each role. The amount of false choice in this game is so out-of-control.
For survivors: We're Gonna Live Forever for the LOVE OF GOD JUST REWARD THE ALTRUISM FOR EVERYONE BY DEFAULT IT'LL RESULT IN MUCH HAPPIER PLAYERS, Bond, Kindred, Borrowed Time (on each player's first unhook).
For killers: Whispers, the BP aspect of Barbecue & Chili, Bitter Murmur (or Discordance), Make Your Choice.
This would address the problem of killers not being able to find survivors quickly enough, killers tunneling and camping, and survivors not having enough information by default. Before you criticize it offhand, sit down and picture what the game might look like if EVERY player had all of these perks in their base kit by default.
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What is the best and most importand michael myers location? Always wanna know.
Ummmmm, Haddonfield? Specifically the old Myers house? Lonnie Elam said never to go up there, Lonnie Elam said that's a haunted house.
Source: Believes everything Lonnie Elam tells me.
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Man, I hope this doesn't just scroll down and die like all other constructive feedback. I don't think developers should hang every decision on what some especially vocal players say or think, but the sentiment expressed here is broad enough to warrant some sort of consideration in terms of at least acknowledging problems. Hopefully folks press them on a lot of these issues in next week's Q&A.
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Five Nights at Freddy's would like a word with you.
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@Onionthing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/586638#Comment_586638
I get what you are trying to say, so Ill keep any further (misc) retorts to a minimum. You are NOT wrong in the spirit of things. It is good to criticize the dev team, i just think some people take it a bit far. BHVR has said they recognize the problems that were posted and are looking at ways to fix them. I think that's a good sign at least.
Game's been out 3 years, how charitable do we need to be about holding their feet to the fire? Freddy rework only took 2 years, and how long have they been talking about dedicated servers now?
They need to take action on the big problems immediately. Like, how was a fix to the current Sprint Burst exploit not prioritized and deployed inside of 24 hours? I know that development is not an instantaneous process, but when major issues are taking literal years to fix, and there's no demonstrable urgency to anything, I have to raise an eyebrow at any promises that are made, and any assurances that they're looking into such-and-such.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/586225#Comment_586225
As a Camper/Tunneler myself, BHVR's recent changes to Killers just makes me want to Camp and Tunnel. Have you noticed people like me in your stats?
The sad thing about the situation is that the experience on both sides is a mess.
Anecdotally, when I play killer, I feel like survivors are too fast and have too many options to slip through and undo my efforts, and I feel powerless in what should be the power role. I find myself often questioning why killers don't have some cooldown-based way to simply see where everyone is every X seconds, as a matter of catching up when I am fatally behind.
And on the survivor side, if I get caught, I feel that I am 100% at the mercy of the killer player's decision to tunnel, and/or my teammates' ability to not fail me. Whether I get to engage with the game is not up to me a lot of the time.
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@Onionthing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/586603#Comment_586603
Sorry, while it is a very colorful analogy, I think its a stretch to consider a video game domestic abuse...
Fair enough, sorry to be so extreme about it. The point I was trying to make is that we shouldn't normalize this kind of Stockholm Syndrome-esque view of the game.
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Yes, this idea would be a good, quick way to make the game a little bit more friendly and accessible.
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"Git gud" is a worthless shorthand that is largely just used to patronize people who are frustrated at a game for (usually) valid, legitimate reasons.
Even Dark Souls, the game that popularized that turn of phrase, makes SOME recognizable attempts to onboard new players and ensure that they don't feel totally, ARBITRARILY trampled before they can even begin to understand the big picture of what the game is all about and how to move forward.
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And I mean, god, man, throwing your hands up and saying "Welp, it's just not friendly to new players" is neither a healthy attitude, or a design direction that makes sense to anyone who takes game design seriously. It's a serious problem that I suspect quantifiably harms DBD's stickiness, and results in more churn than we are publicly privy to.
It's going to be interesting to see what the reception is when the game launches on Switch. I would bet that we're going to start seeing threads like this pop up almost every single day.
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@Onionthing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/586575#Comment_586575
Fair enough ... But I was comparing them to Blizzard and Epic who are in the thousands.
Those companies are good examples of why size does not necessarily correlate 1:1 with healthy development practices.
Also, @darktrix made the point "It takes a certain type of person to keep at it and not saying this type is better, maybe more damaged. I think we are all damaged." This is a super-broken, dim view of our broad relationship with this game. It shouldn't have to be this unhealthy. "He still loves me, things will change" is usually not an attitude that works out in the victim's favor.
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@Onionthing Behaviour employs more than 550 people. I know not everyone there is dedicated to this game specifically, but that is not a small company.
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I've said this before, but every DBD match is a full-bodied roulette, every time you hit the queue button.
There's no consistency about what you're going to face, and getting any satisfaction out of the game is incumbent on putting in enough hours to get familiar enough with all the weird edge cases that exist in such quantities, that at least a couple are active in any given match. I have a friend who just started, and he was immediately overwhelmed with us bombarding him with this kind of information ("It's Legion! To be safe, don't hide in lockers or team up on gens until we figure out what perks he's using!" "Looks like Wraith is using add-ons that hide all useful tells, and also gives him the ability to track you!").
The perk grind is also arranged in such a way where you have to deeply commit to a specific thing before you can even understand whether you will enjoy it at a basic and reasonable level (i.e. I dunno if I am gonna enjoy Spirit, but I have to put the time into unlocking a bunch of perks on her before I have a basic idea of her real capabilities and synergies).
And it doesn't help anyone's early impressions of the game when fully one-third (optimistically) of all matches begin with a long 3+ minute loading screen hang, followed by a disconnect error and absolutely no reward for the inconvenience. It's 2019, and this game doesn't even have dedicated servers.
And I don't care if there's a time and place for camping and/or tunneling, it's a miserable experience when it happens to you multiple games in a row, and it doesn't motivate a new player to come back, when all they see is a game that is doing its damnedest to keep them from coming to grips with it. The hoops that you have to jump through for a basic level of enjoyment are INSANE, and I say this as someone who has put hundreds of hours into this game.
Give us more than "this is being worked on," @Peanits -- give us specific solution plans and a timeline.