Rulebreaker
Rulebreaker
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@Yyys2ee3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3418210#Comment_3418210
Yeah, it's tricky to tell intent. That's why I think the word gets thrown around so much. Many people interpret tunnelling as toxic because they think you don't like them and are just targeting them for example, or they want to ruin your fun when often it's about getting an advantage and there is no intent to negatively affect your opponent.
Usually we'll give the benefit of doubt and think it's just to "win" but it's never surprising when we do find one of the later.
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It's more "personal" than "proper" but:
- Hatch goes to those that earn our respect or 4% off hook
- Stay till we know everyone we want out has made it to doors (not necessarily out). Someone sandbagging all game will be left for the killers mercy.
- Play as normal, maybe lighten up a little if it's not a rage DC. As killer we're not in charge of how your team acts. As survivor we don't expect any mercy anyway.
- Depends on our mood. Usually it's a single mercy pass.
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It's mostly the intent but it's really hard to tell most times. Do they want to use unfun but useful tactics to win or to wreck someone's day? Former is fine (for a given definition), but the later isn't.
Another, more clear case is end game chat. Taunts and threats give a pretty clear intent.
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@burt0r said:
Play artist only once a week to check if the problem still persists, to not increase the DC penalty, and just play other killer if they aren't problematic for you?
@Peanits said:
Just to clarify, what kind of freeze are we talking about? Does the game completely lock up, or are you stuck in place with the game still running (e.g. you can see mist and other things still moving)?
If it's the former, I would suggest verifying your game files - the steps vary depending on your platform. In very rare cases, corrupted files may cause the game to crash when certain things happen. If you're on PC, I would also recommend checking your graphics card drivers and making sure they are up to date.
If it's the latter, it's unlikely that the Killer you're playing is affecting your connection. I've just done a search and there doesn't seem to be any known issues with The Artist causing disconnections. Are you playing on a wired connection or on Wifi? I'd strongly recommend a wired connection whenever possible, it'll be far more stable than wifi, especially if your PC/console is far away from your router.
If you're certain that this issue only happens when playing The Artist, I'd strongly suggest creating a Bug Report and reaching out to our support team.
Thanks for the help. Was actually able to finish matches as artist yesterday so I'm chalking it down to 1/100 coincidence that it happened 3 times exactly the same way.
To clarify, was on wifi, the game kept running (sounds and all), could play other killers and survivor that night.
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We like thematic/restricted builds with our loadouts so we rarely see someone do similar.
Ex: Billy is a juggernaut (enduring, lightborn, iron grasp, hubris/mad grit/spirit fury [based off mood]), Pallet eater bubba (Eduring fury, hubris, brutal strength), unpredictable blight (tinkerer, dark devotion, trail of torment, eruption)
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Most are fine power wise to us, but rng usually dictates that they will usually be gone 20 - 40 seconds in the match. The only ones that we feel really need help is crowd control and ruin.
Crowd control is more hit and miss due to needing a map with more vaults than pallet to be impactful. Maps like the game make it worse than ruin.
Ruin does little for the risk of being a hex, but not being a hex puts it in a...odd position. It also becomes a survivor on first hook after someone dies which is sad to us.
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@I_am_Negan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3410781#Comment_3410781
On the bright side, if it keeps up the track record shows that they will somehow nerf camp tunnel.
If they were going to do it they would of done it by now. Their too scared to lose the player base that relies on it every game.
ohh ye of little faith, theyre gona do something the only questions are what and how entertaining will it be?
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@I_am_Negan said:
Because they don't want to change the way they play.
SOoooooooooooooo, they throw a hissy fit
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9KJDKPVPF1HO/tantrum.gif
And camp and tunnel more.
Mostly this. Many think they lost their favorite toy that they used as a crutch, so now they're relying on tunnel/camp as the new crutch.
On the bright side, if it keeps up the track record shows that they will somehow nerf camp tunnel. THAT would be an interesting train wreck.
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Your opinions are your own, but we'd at least like to point the following:
- She has 5ish seconds of moving 7ish meters with an additional 1 second of that speed post phase. Thats a decent chunk of distance while shes completely invisible sans the sound.
- She herself is invisible during phasing and all aura reading goes to the husk. No key wall hacks, information from fogwise can be screwed up, yada yada.
- Her attacks count as basic attacks after phasing unlike blight and (now) nurse meaning she can go zoom with insta downs, run sloppy, etc.
- She has the option of playing the pallet, catching up to survivors, moving across the map faster than most killers. In short she has options which many like GF or Pyramid head do not.
- She doesn't need to immediately attack after phasing and wont go into any fatigue like blight or nurse regardless if she swings or not. Also a missed swing isn't as costly on her as others like say Wraith.
- As stated by GannTM, she can play any pallet except god pallets
- She weeds out the stupid survivors in the best way.
We occasionally play spirit without add ons (miss the double passive phasing ones) and have seen people perform well without them against us. We can safely say that while people love the ring and cherry blossoms (of which the cherry blossoms are what we personally hate), she does not need them to stand near the top.
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It does still does that unless your in a deadzone. That said, what you personally do doesn't change the fact of what the others did. Whenever a side gets nice tools, they abuse the hell outa it till it gets hit with the nerf bat till the devs look into it again.
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We agree that returning to 5 seconds and keeping it off after 5 gens would be fine, we also want to remind that usage was high because a large chunk of survivors kept throwing themselves at the killer just to use it.
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Congrats. Enjoy till the anniversary~
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@IWasLrft2Die said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3406870#Comment_3406870
Yeah I think that's very true. I do think these types of perks encourage it more so though. I'd be into them existing if there were some conditions (like must complete a generator in the match) to avoid sandbagging
That's fair. Though we're gonna be a pain and point out the obvious of they would just do the gen then hide (sorta already do that from what we've seen. They do all of 1 gen then f off somewhere or play normal till there's 2 left, theeeen f off).
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You really can't tell people what to do and expect them to do it. They're still going to tell you it just like your telling them to stop. Everyone can do as they wish and mocking them for it won't do anything.
Second everyone has a different definition of win here. We can win and still die when we can run the killer all game. We can win as killer and have 0k with 8 hooks.
Third some people above really do enjoy being the reason the others escape. Personally, we don't care much.
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To be fair, you can't blame the perks for how a survivor plays. Some would probably do the same thing again even without those types of perks.
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Fearmonger + GF = dropped survivor
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1: no. It would end up in a similar situation to older DS and unbreakable. Survivors would abuse the immunity and the killer would resort to slugs to keep them down.
2: no but admittedly this is a more biased reason. The killer should always be a threat to the survivors survival. While it would be nice in theory, we don't want the killer threat effectively dead till a certain point.
We think tunneling has become out of hand in recent months, but we agree with the above in that more anti tunneling should be incorporated instead of killers being restricted or straight up unable to do things.
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@imakepeoplehateme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3403637#Comment_3403637
Pain resonance used to have a loud noise notification, telling you which gen had the most progress,aka where you needed to apply pressure,screaming was a cherry on top.You also just hooked a person.From both of these facts alone you already have enough information and areas to pressure,.Dms tells you when someone lets go of a gens,telling you when they start running away or going for an unhook.IF you knew how to use said perks,the information was beyond strong on top of the ridiculous slowdown.
Survivors perks are MEANT to be situational.Boons require you to find a totem and be within range of one when you need its effect.Prove does nothing if only one person completes a gen.Any means necessary doesn't work if the killer breaks pallets.The same concept applies to MOST perks.If you take away all perks in the game,killers would tunnel,camp and slug relentlessly,which is why it so happens that meta perks are situationally strong in these situations.
I think you don't have enough experience facing or using the pentimento ruin + build,which is understandable, it wasn't the most popular.There are two situations that can play out,survivors do the totems of they don't.If they don't they have to face the consequences of either the strongest regression perk that ever existed or if they stop midway through have to deal with 30% slowdown,both ideal situations.If they do totems doing 2-3 totems which are slowed down by thrill adds up to a generators worth of progress,and this is on top of the massive travel time.
5 stacks of pentimento is irrelevant. The first token does everything you want the perk to do,everything else is a cherry on top.Plaything is a mediocre combo,since the survivors can just ignore the totems,the penalty isn't that big,especially for a swf.
You need to kill a survivor fast or you lose the game.The average match lasts 10 minutes,if you don't have a kill or something better(multiple people on death hook would be an example) by the halfway point you lost.Killing someone is the strongest strategy the killer can employ by the simple fact that,in a 1 v4 the killer is overwhelmed,while in a 1 v 3 the killer is the one in control.By having a hook and chasing another survivor no one is doing gens.If you can incapacitate 2 survivors(Hook or slug) and you find the third the game is as good as concluded.You can always camp to guarantee a 2k etc.
Now having 3 hooks and one kill,unless the survivors messed up massively is a different story.You don't want to hard tunnel the first survivors you meet unless the survivors allow you to do so,an example being them unhook very early with you nearby,why start a new chase when you can just conclude the old one.
Without the scream deadmans wouldnt proc, which means survivors would usually either finish the gen in your face if it was close enough or simply bail. Again, not alot of killers would be able to reach that gen across the map in time to stop survivors from doing either.
Gona be honest here and say we're confused as to where this train of thought has come from and gone. (Think its from saying reassurance doesnt kill camping?) That said, no, everyone wouldn't slug, tunnel, and camp relentlessly (though alot more probably would because they think they need to).
Admittedly we have only faced it about 6ish times. That said it only worked 2 / 6 times, which is respectable but no where near as strong as other builds we've seen. The 5 stacks is relevant because one of those 2 wins was due to being unable to clean penti because they lit their 5 totems essentially at once (randos are lovely). Thrill and ruin are lit up first with undying subbing whichever gets broken first. Unless that killer was guarding the lit totems (or got lucky or was someone like trapper) those lit totems would be broken in the early stages of the match (which happened each time we faced that build). While we think your underestimating plaything, each has their own opinion on the mater and it isnt really relevant atm.
We are perfectly capable of killing everyone at the end. Each match is different and various factors decide whether or not you "win" or not (ignoring each person's definition of win). While 3v1 is much more manageable, saying you lose automatically if everyone's fine at the half point is false. If we can make a comeback, and we're far from the best, then everyone better than us certainly can and everyone else can be good enough to do it.
As for this....not sure why your saying information we know already....or it at all...(is it part of the above part?)
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@imakepeoplehateme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3403443#Comment_3403443
Moris could insta kill people in the same patch gens could be completed instantly.Both got nerfed in the same patch.You are right that overall it favored survivors,but they needed to come in prepared,and in solo queue didn't matter.The game was simply a mess back then,the sided who brought stronger stuff was massively favored compared to now.
So the build doesn't work because the killer can't get downs?How do you fail to capitalize on the info?You know the gen with most progress on it,if its white no one is on it,if its red someone is working on it.You also have a hook you can return to if you don't find anyone?The build was straight up busted in its prime,3 of those perks got massive nerfs.
No perk stops one side from doing something.Ds and Otr don't stop tunneling,ub only stops slugging once,reassurence has its limits,but these perks punish the killer heavily in those situations.Getting an extra health state while getting tunneled,preventing the killer from securing an extra hook state by timing reassurence right,one guy running ubreakable picking everybody up once a game etc.
The kick meta sucked,it punished killers for engaging and winning chases,since you couldn't get value from you perks.You had to defend your gens tightly, and be territorial cause a single tap can disable half your build.Eruption was indeed disgusting as aforementioned.
Ruin+undying was a strong core,that only got better with pentimento + support hex(Thrill or retri for nurse).Its a damned if you do damned if you don't build.Ruin was ridiculous for as long as it was up so you couldn't ignore the hexes,thrill and retri further punished you for cleasing the hexes,and pentimento made you do even more totems or suffer a heavy slowdown.
Killer is in a more healthy spot indeed,but the overall loss in strength killer perks have suffered have made slightly weaker than before,with the only viable strategy being to tunnel since your perks no longer reward you for creating pressure or winning chases.
In solo q, while we cant speak for everyone, most people did come prepared, but yes we agree it was a mess (we kinda miss it in a strange way).
Lets assume you got the PR proc but no one screamed because they let go before the hook, no info. What if deadmans procced but your on the opposite side of the map. Same with deadlock. Most the killer cast wouldn't be able to capitalize on that info well except the fact of "Heres where survivors are this second, theyre probably leaving or hiding now".
The killer is the one creating those situations and those perks are ment to counter them, and only that. Reassurance is only helpful against camping. It doesn't help in any other capacity, while Unbreakable does have other uses, its primarily an slugging deterrent and those other uses are niche (specifically thinking about flipflop, unbreak, and power struggle). OTR and DS are the deterrents to tunneling, but they do not deter it nearly as much as unbreakable deters slugging.
Agreed
Penti only realy became prominent with plaything. While we can see someone using that build, survivors would simply break the totems again once they noticed. Admittedly it would work wonders for the uncoordinated as everyone would be looking instead of working, but your stuck either guarding the totems or the gens if enough survivors figure out what your doing, not factoring rng of totem spawning. You would have also been unlikely to set up all 5 unless someone needed totems for a perk or rift as boons came out in a close timeframe and most would only break the hexes after penti came out.
For the first part, we're gona assume you wish to be super technical. In this assumption, you would be correct in that its slightly weaker. However, for those of us who have played for a long time, this slight weakening currently happening is MASSIVELY off set by the bonuses killers have gotten recently.
For the second half, we just plain disagree. Tunneling isn't the only viable strategy. Perks like pop and pain res still reward winning chases. Hooking survivors and harassing another still creates pressure. What is currently happening is that everyone who relied on stacking slowdown and kick meta will have a nice rough time and either adapt or sink. We're personally hoping a lot of them sink, but we're also spiteful little gremlins.
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@imakepeoplehateme said:
I keep on seeing this topic brought up and it rubs me the wrong way,since i personally couldn't disagree more.
Firstly depending on how back you want to go,the game was not as survivor sided as much as it was an unbalanced mess.Yeah the loops were stronger,infinites existed,busted perks roamed free for a while,hatch gave survivors an easy escape but killers also had tools such as moris for over half of the game's lifespan to even the odds to an equally oppressively degree.
If you want to talk about modern era dbd such as pre patch 6.10,yeah gens took less the complete and killers were a bit slower,survivors had their perks at full power but so did killers.
Corrupt,pain res,DMS and Deadlock was a disgusting combo,that could be run with great success on almost any killer, and has yet to be rivaled imo.A combo in which all 4 perks not only slow the game down but to the resourceful,provided valuable information(Split the map in half,loud noise + scream bubble,info on blocked gens,gen with most progress).
The strongest killers in the game were also arguably stronger.Not only were blight and spirit the best users of the aforementioned build but old DH was of equal hindrance if not a worse since their powers are predictable and speed boost is far worse than a near miss.Ds didn't matter to these strong killers either the same way they couldn't care less about it now.
Nurse was also significantly nerfed,in both build(ruin,penti,und,retri) and addons to a significantly weaker killer.
IF you think m1 killers are stronger,than you might be right,i would argue it slightly depends on the playstle,what doesn't change however is that at a high level these killers cannot compete so it doesn't matter.
On top of that every new map and rework has filled the pool with more survivor sided maps,and butchered some of the few killer sided maps, reassurance was added to completely kill camping by efficient teams,meanwhile otr is as efficient as DS at preventing tunneling.
I would also like to mention that the gen kicking meta(excluding erruption,that was vile) is not as strong as the builds of old for the simple fact that a competent swf can easily power through your 3 gen,unless you play the infamous 2 killers.
This is not even mention the upcoming patch,which we'll have to live before we can comment on it,but it seems like a buff to blight and nurse(Dh nerfed mostly) and a nerf to 70% of the killer roster since they cannot end chases fast enough without slowdown.
We're gonna throw our opinion here.
Most of that unbalanced mess in the beginning favored survivors. Moris required hooking (when we started), which could be damned hard with infinites, instant repairs, going from slug to healthy syringes, and the like.
While that combo could work, there were times where it wouldn't simply because they couldn't capitalize on that info. Had both an artist and spirit fail using something like that because they couldn't find or catch the survivors.
Nurse maybe nerfed, but the rest of the cast? The rest got better. And before you say something along the lines of "only these killers are viable" no. Everyone is viable.
Reassurance doesn't fully kill camping, though you won't find sympathy from us on that front anyway, and your correct in that OTR is effective as DS for tunneling. Which is very little. Killer wants to tunnel, they WILL tunnel and get you unless your better than them, or the gates are powered.
The kick meta was worse in our opinion. You could stealth the shpr and Deadman combo, could disable the ruin tinker undying combo, couldn't do beep about the kick meta except try and rush critical gens. Even competent teams would be troubled and a LOT of people found it annoying.
Slowdown doesn't help end chases anyway. It gives you a longer window to start and finish a chase, but if you require that huge window from stacking 4 slowdowns, that's on you not every killer. In addition those slowdowns being changed are still viable (res requires a lot more thinking than it should but a quarter gen isn't to be ignored)
If you want to be super technical, then maybe your correct in that killer isn't the easiest it's EVER been, but it's SO SO much easier now than before.
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- To ensure that people know what they're doing.
- The auto buy is to speed up everything. If there's nothing you want, click and move on. It's a blessing for those who have everything they want and if they see something, they can target it.
- To see if you want something on that specific web.
- This is a freaking GREAT addition
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@09SHARKBOSS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401183#Comment_3401183
i play pig and dont use ambush she stil has stealth in her basekit
True, but so does spooky girl and spoopys has been more effective for us everywhere but lerys.
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Just so we're clear, fair does not always equal fun.
- Everyone has a realistic chance to play each part of their role. Killer can hunt and chase down survivors. Survivors can work on objectives (gens, totems, boxes, heals) and evade the killer. As an example, tunneling someone out first gen, while scummy, falls under fair as they have a chance to evade the killer. A killer never seeing the survivors and all the gens get done also falls under fair as they had a chance to hunt them.
- Everyone plays out the match till the end and making an attempt to complete their role's objective. No DC, no AFK, no farming. There is a outlier in a survivor giving up on first down. While pathetic and horribly irritating, a survivor that was chased who gives up on first down will be counted as given a fair chance.
- Obviously no hacks or cheats.
The points above are what makes a "fair" match in our opinion. Not "balanced" or "fun" but it is "fair". Everything goes from tbagging squads to 3 gen camping merchants long as its within these parameters to us.
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Leaning towards piggy or sadako. Piggy is an m1 killer that has a lethal slowdown requiring a down first with an ambush that rarely works against attentive survivors. Sadako is an m1 killer with a fast slow teleport (teleport itself is fast, tv cd is slow) and a lethal gimmick thats hard to exploit without add ons. At least Trapper can get alot of pressure real quick (though requiring luck and unlucky survivors) and technically some anti-loop while Freddy has mobility and ways (or 1 way since no add ons) to help in chases.
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@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400985#Comment_3400985
The problem is that most 'chase' perks are pretty garbage. If they buffed them and made them actually on par with some of the better slowdown perks then people would use them.
The only chase perks I'd say that are really worth bringing are Blood Favour (which has it's own problems, being a hex perk) and STBFL, which is more a camping perk than anything.
It's not about chase perks persay, it's the ability to chase/ when to keep chase/ something like that, though we'd argue for bamboozle and crowd control some other time. Most that we see either mindlessly follow or mind game themselves to paranoia. Maybe it's more accurate to say the killers thinking needs changed. Not sure about the proper words and Abit busy to think to hard about it ATM.
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Thats a big wall of text right there...
Overall we agree with the main points (or what we think the points are)
Our answer to the top question is that everything is serviceable as long as the load out compliments it or use it effectively. For example we've gotten use out of grim embrace on trapper by using it as a mid game corrupt intervention to reset/move traps without worry. The only contender we think is non serviceable is ruin, though someone could prove us wrong (doubtful though).
We also agree that slowdown perks are ment to give a window to pressure survivors. Currently we mostly see killers stack 3/4 slowdown perks and trying to whittle away everything while never chasing more than a handful of seconds, wasting that huge window. No "natural" pressure and most have become compliant in having this huge window. While some maps make it look like taking 4 slowdowns is the best option it's not going to help in the long run. People need to stop relying on slowing down gens and to speed up chases.
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First thought, they know absolutely nothing they're talking about.
Second thought, stop being judgemental and read what they say.
Third thought, contemplate what they said and see if we were right. (Close to 50/50 so far)
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The saw brothers. Bubba's usually camp and it's always the same point blank saw with Billy.
Merchant gets an dishonorable mention due to how 90% of people play her.
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Our favorite to play as would be Artist. We just like her kit so ever much. Can find survivors easy, can down across the map if we want, can turn off most stupid loops, and has pretty wings.
To go against would be nurse. We like how different the chases are against the nurse.
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This is so far the best thread we've seen XD
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Stay healthy as much as you practically can as he gets first hits really easy on unsuspecting survivors.
Eyes and ears open. Know where your safety nets are. Unless it's a map like lerys, you usually can see him coming since he doesn't have complete invisibility while moving at you fast enough to reach a nearby window or pallet. Unless your team used them all, then your in trouble.
Basically be paranoid but calm and you'll be rewarded.
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Most anti camp ideas usually either end up being abused by survivors or are so ridiculous that it's not worth entertaining. The closest good idea we've seen is make hooks like ph cages with a survivor sensor. We would need an idea that works that can't be abused.
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Object of Obsession. We just hate (REALY REALY HATE) the perk on principle before and after the rework. We will gladly throw games just to make sure they die and if we ever run it we accept whatever the killer does.
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Do we get a finders fee if we own one?
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We call it hell because we dont know when we'll get teammates that will stay in the game, let alone if they're competent or not. We get more people either dcing or suiciding on hook than normal teammates. As survivor we're ok, but we rely on our team. If a member quits at the start, then the rest fall.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394266#Comment_3394266
Nice way of simply ignoring every single point I gave to you.
In my "scenario", what are you supposed to do if they just complete a gen when you are in front of the hook with the survivor? Drop it? Let it escape so they can progress the gens some more before hooking him for the first time so you can get the most benefit from PR? Because I don't know in what other way we could chose when to proc the perk if that happens. Not that you really have a choosing in when exactly you down and hook survivors anyway, but hey, I'm trying to stick to your logic here.
And why overall healing didn't needed a change? Because again, people don't stop repeating "altruistic healing should be lower than self healing with a medkit" and "altruistic healing wasn't the problem" but yet I don't see anybody giving a good and logical reason of why.
And what you said there doesn't change the fact that now your best option is to tunnel every single unhooked survivor to avoid him to get DH later in the game.
But yet again, you do you man. Whatever all of you say (BTW, who are we?).
Then don't overcomplicate each point. Its about a game, not life or death.
You can do whatever. If you want the most out of new pain res then we'd recommend slugging them or dropping them. So yes, you can drop them, you can use the token and hope there was a gen being worked on, you can spin around till they wiggle free, you can do whatever you want. You still have that choice, good or ill. If they removed the scourge hook requirement then competent killers would burn through their 4 tokens really fast and it would be wasted anyway. Currently killers can at least hold off burning them if they dont want to.
And why overall healing didn't needed a change? Because 2 people healing for most of a gens worth of time is ridiculous.
And if that survivor can run you the rest of the gens while you tunnel them does it still make it the best option? Tunneling them only avoids dh, not the rest of their skill (or map rng). If you only want to avoid dh then sure, best option.
[We is shared account of Rulebreaker]
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394219#Comment_3394219
-"That sounds condescending all things considered over us not being clear with wording"
I didn't mean to be rude. I just think we can both agree that perks that went from 30 to 6% or lower usage is a very clear indication of "nuked". When they change a perk with the intention of making it a meta perk and then it gets 6% usage - that's an indication the perk sucks.
-"DH is stronger now than the old "DH for distance" because you get sprint burst distance on demand."
I still stand by this quote. DH now is better/stronger for the top 5% of players than the old DH was for most players.
DH in its current form lets you loop throw a pallet and then take a hit - letting you go to a new loop. If the terrain is great you can run 2-3 loops and waste all the pallets. When you're about to get hit you use DH. This last part is the key here because you get the endurance twice.
What if you only get endurance once per "down". In other words if you were hurt and used DH you could get the endurance - but if you were healthy you would only get the endurance the first time and get no speed boost from using DH (just the distance from killer recovery)
We would consider that people using "stronger" things. They're not as effective as before, thats a given, but they aren't really nerfed to the point of uselessness (some exceptions ofcourse like Ruin). People want to use the best for their wants, if the current best toy gets nerfed they move on. However, if thats your definition of "nuked" then very well.
We also believe the intention was they (the devs? higher ups?) wanted to not make it a meta perk anymore when changing it. They want it used less, which to be fair to them they usually get when they "nuke" things unfortunately.
Fair enough, to each their own.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393765#Comment_3393765
A quarter of total progress loss if the most progressed gen has a quarter of total progress in it to begin with the moment you hook a survivor for the first time. If while carrying the survivor to the hook they complete a gen an the next one has only 2% of progress in it, it would regress just a 2% of progress. And I would prefer if them just removed the "Scourge Hook" requirement from it so it would depend a little less on RNG instead of making it stronger, at least.
And they could just keep the 24 altruistic seconds, buff CoH to 100% as they are doing, buff the medkits to go from 50 to 100% of healing also and they would have the same effect in terms of "altruistic healing being equal as self healing with a medkit is a problem because a streamer said so" as now healing someone with the best medkit would reward you with a healthy survivor and almost 21 charges in a gen instead of the 24 charges that would take the survivor to heal themselves, while still giving some breathing time to killers. But no, because people would still complain that they being equal is still a problem as someone, somewhere said so.
And I think is simple to understand. Before, taking in count an scenario where the killer can get the unhooked survivor soon after being unhooked, if they decided to go after the unhooked survivor they would first have to deal with the basekit protection (Endurance + Haste) for 10 seconds, making the chase longer and almost impossible for the unhooker to not get DH, as for it to not being a "Safe Unhook" the unhooked survivor need to get downed again. From the wiki:
For an unhook to be considered as such, the just unhooked Survivor must not enter the Dying State for the following 10 seconds.
So, despite what people said, tunneling to denying DH was not a viable option unless you already planned to tunnel, so it wasn't an incentive to do it. Now? Now it would not only incentivice it, it is the best decision to make, as someone already with Deep Wound won't get the protection hit from DH. If you want to avoid the unhooked survivor to get it, you just need to trigger the basekit Endurance for him to get Deep Wound.
In other words, DH would not help you in that situation as there is no way a killer that has you on his attack range would simply wait the 10 whole seconds so you can get to chose when you are protected of the hit by using DH. They would hit you to trigger basekit Endurance, and just keep chasing you like they would do anyways. In fact, this change would benefit killers than can camp reliably like Bubba the most.
DH won't only not protect you from being tunneled , but now you would only get DH when survivors stop unhooking you with the killer 5 meters away of the hook... yeah, good luck with that. That's what happens when people complain of things they don't fully understand.
Multiple perks can be wasted. DH, SB, Pop, Blast mine, head on, heck even old PR as we've had your scenario happen before. As we've said before killers can chose (little but its there) when to try and apply that 25% and now we got to be smarter about it when playing killer.
Fair enough to your own thoughts on the healing but we still think the medkits needed changed and not overall healing.
We saw "Tunneling to prevent DH" more as "Tunneling to prevent this survivor from getting DH" as they needed to save others to activate it. This gave killers a reason to go for the unhooked as it was guaranteed they didnt have DH active (atleast for the first one). Currently going for the unhooker is the same thing instead of the unhooked.
In your scenario it wouldn't matter which survivor you went for at the start though we feel your correct that it would encourage tunneling later in the match. Either you hit the unhooked through bt and keep going (as an aside, we've had killers, ourself included, wait out basekit protection if they want a survivor bad enough) or go for the unhooker and no DH for them assuming its not someone already hooked. When your scenario happens.
If survivors are unhooking 5 meters from the killer, then they are either new, trolls, or desperate. Even in solos we often get people who know how to safely save.
We don't realy see it benefiting bubba though as he really cant be countered camping if the player has a brain. It buffs camping, but dont think it even maters to bubba.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394176#Comment_3394176
-"Can it work against your opponents effectively? Yes"
Will it work well against efficient survivors regularly? No.
-"Lets decide on a definition of "Nuked" before we go on"
We already agree on the definition of Nuked. What we dont agree on is which perks got Nuked. Pop has been Nuked.
Pop went from ~33% usage or more to 6% usage. That's a nuke.
Iron Will went from ~20-30% usage to 4.5% usage. That's a nuke.
Eruption is down to 6% which is once again a Nuke because they intended this to become a meta perk. It should be having a ~30% usage with the "buff" it got recently. Lol.
Right now PR is looking at 23% usage and that's going to get nuked when the patch hits.
"Overall its a nerf [to PR]"
Thank you for being honest.
"How pray tell do you get SB distance if they failed? How do they get it on first chase without SB itself? How do they get it if legion frenzy stabs them? "
You get distance on SB because you pre-ran or because you were holding it at 99%. That's how you use that perk most effectively.
Legion is a pretty stupid killer because much like plague it doesn't matter if you are hurt. Both killers suck at getting the second hit.
Yes, it can. You or me being able to may be different, but being completely unable to is false.
You didn't give a definition at all. You just went and pulled numbers. Which went down because people found toys they liked more after they got nerfed. Your insinuating that if the usage numbers dropped significant it got nuked correct?
That sounds condescending all things considered over us not being clear with wording but your welcome?
Lastly:
"DH is stronger now than the old "DH for distance" because you get sprint burst distance on demand."
We were referring to THIS specifically with those questions
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393719#Comment_3393719
-"First only eruption got nuked (and only the annoying part at that) and while pr got nerfed overall (our opinion) it got a decent compensation for it."
That's not a valid opinion for people who play killer often vs good players. Everyone I know and the big streamers share the opinion that those perks are dead.
From 6.1 to now these killer perks got nuked : Eruption, PR, Pop, Ruin.
-"Second people would have used DH regardless of which change went through. "
My friends who play at comp level in bully squads had already started planning builds w/o DH. The previous plan where you had to unhook someone would have killed it- and rightly so.
"-Third, NEVER did we say it's ok. We just want it to happen less on ALL SIDES."
You're not giving the impression you are a centrist considering you think this change to PR is a buff.
-"Lastly you straight avoided our questions."
What question do you feel I avoided that was worth mentioning?
"That's not a valid opinion for people who play killer often vs good players. Everyone I know and the big streamers share the opinion that those perks are dead."
And thats their OPINION . Can it be used? Yes. Can it work against your opponents effectively? Yes. Is everyone gona have the same opinion? Not a chance in hell.
Lets decide on a definition of "Nuked" before we go on with this otherwise its gona be you say vs us say. We say nuked is "Becomes practially useless [give too little value for the effort] to detrimental [actively helps the opponent or help not at all] to run in an average game". By this definition we would only consider Ruin truly nuked. Each has been hit with the nerf hammer but are still usable and practical enough to run (PR needs testing before we're gona call it.)
"My friends who play at comp level in bully squads had already started planning builds w/o DH. The previous plan where you had to unhook someone would have killed it- and rightly so."
Your friends are not the only ones here playing mate. There would still be people to run it no mater what you and your friends do. Why it even maters is beyond us.
"You're not giving the impression you are a centrist considering you think this change to PR is a buff."
Overall its a nerf, but its a buff from 15% with 4 tokens. Mayhapse we wern't clear so that may be on us.
"What question do you feel I avoided that was worth mentioning?"
How pray tell do you get SB distance if they failed? How do they get it on first chase without SB itself? How do they get it if legion frenzy stabs them? Admittedly it was abit venting at all the nonsense combined with an annoying day but we would realllly like to know.
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We don't really like it as there's an annoying number of factors to use it well. But we'll see how it goes as 25% regression where it's needed is something worth testing.
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As much as we dislike Billy, we're going to join the quire and agree that playing him well does take skill. Even if we rarely see it.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393719#Comment_3393719
PR got a decent compensation for it? Are you real?
Before, you needed to get lucky with Scourge Hook spawning, as if they all spawned in the same corner of the map, you are screwed. It was still useful because if you was lucky, you would get the effect everytime you hooked someone, so if you get downs fast you could use it reliably and have more chances for it to really do some slowdown.
Now? You don't only need to be lucky with the hook placement, you would need to be lucky that when you first hook someone the max progressed gen is not just 4-5% done, as that would be a waste of the effect. And if you aren't lucky enough those 4 times then puff! Perk's gone, and you didn't get value from it.
PR nerf was ok when all healing times was higher as the killer would get more downs and PR would become more oppressive, so it needed balance. But now that they reduced the healing again (because everybody repeat the mantra that altruistic healing wasn't a problem, yet not one person can explain or give a compelling argument of why it wasn't) PR depends so much in RNG that it would be almost useless no matter if it's strength is 15, 25 or 90%.
Oh, and by the way, DH won't serve you in that situation for the simple reason that if you are getting tunneled on unhook the killer would simply have to hit you to trigger the basekit protection for you to not be able to use DH, as Deep Wound would make it to not protect you from the hit anymore. So it is just as before, but worst.
Decent as the gen with the most progress loses a Quarter of total progress now. Would you rather it be back to 15% per token? We don't like the nerf, but saying it didn't get something back would be lying. Add to the fact that you can CHOOSE if you want someone on that shiny hook, you have some (not alot admittedly) control over when you want it.
For the healing speed thing (and this is opinion based like the rest) that 2 survivors healing each other for practically a gen's worth of time just plain wrong.
...not sure what your going on about for the 3rd paragraph so if please explain if you want us to think of a thought out answer.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392686#Comment_3392686
-"We get you want to kill the perk but the nuclear option isn't an answer for balance."
So it's ok to obliterate perks like Eruption and Pain Res but the sky will fall if DH gets an equal treatment to the point where : NO ONE WILL USE IT.
That's the definition of an unfair game where one side gets preferential treatment. Killer perks get obliterated and survivor perks get a slap on the wrist.
First only eruption got nuked (and only the annoying part at that) and while pr got nerfed overall (our opinion) it got a decent compensation for it.
Second people would have used DH regardless of which change went through. The newest one at least gives a reason to go for the unhooked instead and protection against killers who wait out the base kit bt.
Third, NEVER did we say it's ok. We just want it to happen less on ALL SIDES.
Lastly you straight avoided our questions.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392662#Comment_3392662
DH is stronger now than the old "DH for distance" because you get sprint burst distance on demand.
DH should give endurance but no movement speed buff. The problem is that it has always given better distance than both Lithe and Sprint Burst and as a result lets you waste more time.
Look at what happened to Eruption - the core effect that made it worth using got obliterated.
DH should get an equal treatment to where it goes down to 1-5% usage among top players.
How pray tell do you get SB distance if they failed? How do they get it on first chase without SB itself? How do they get it if legion frenzy stabs them?
How the ever loving hell are people going nuts against this?
We get you want to kill the perk but the nuclear option isn't an answer for balance.
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Ehh, we'd be a little sad about things getting removed but not horribly.
That said we have gotten practical value out of each. Head on saves feel good to pull off and is a great bubba staller. Knock out has bought time for us as killer and gives a good laugh in a kyf hearing our friends try to find each other.
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For us the camper award goes to bubba with honorable mention to merchant for quickly rising in the ranks.
The tunneling award goes to...well it's sorta a tie between everyone except trickster. We have yet to see a trickster tunnel for no reason (by our definition of tunnel).
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It will forever bug people who like clean numbers. The evil evil jokesters.
That aside, we think it's just a nice like thing for a.... holiday?...so hopefully people just enjoy it
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25 for each survivors first hook then drop to 10 for each hook after. That gives some extra incentive for spreading hooks.
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Could always play with feet~