Riski
Riski
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I don't feel like the perk is that bad. Let's say a survivor is on a gen and you chase them off it, a 30 second chase to down and then 30 seconds for the hook, unhook and back on the gen (these are arbitrary but a minute off the gen total isn't unreasonable). This is a minute where the gen is regressing which translates to 15 seconds of gen time. This isn't accounting for the killer's ability to spread pressure or people needing to get off gens for unhooks. If you run it on billy and never drop a chase it'll be bad but on killers who can get a lot of pressure and spread it like Legion, Cenobite or Nemesis (with zombies) the perks gain a lot of value even if it's temporary in the match as a whole.
Another way to see the perk is to compare it to mangled. Mangled makes a 16 second heal 20 seconds, or it gains you +25% time spent when the survivor heals. If a survivor heals for 16 seconds rather than get on the gen the gen regresses by 4 seconds with ruin so it's the same time gain. Now the survivor can choose here and it's gen time, not inactivity which is worse as mangled can delay unhooks if the survivor spends more time healing, however, ruin does this for all actions. 20 seconds to unhook is 5 seconds off your gen, a 40 second chase is 10 seconds so on and so forth. These are small amounts but they do add up when it affects all gens and survivors, especially on killers that keep survivors busy like the ones previously mentioned.
Suddenly making every mend or worry about your chain hunt buys you more time than before. Ruin isn't meant to regress a gen from 80% to 0%, it's meant to regress 4 gens from 80% to 60%. Even the act of cleansing and finding it will cause your gen to regress and the perk also has some nice synergies with mangled, surveillance and pentimento which helps keep it going.
The only change I'd suggest is removing the self-cleanse. At 200% this would be fair as a 3v1 against old ruin was unbeatable beyond a god-like chase, yes finding the totem but that isn't reliable, but with 100% you can reasonably power through it.
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I disagree with the sentiment that specific addons are needed on him, namely map and horse meat, despite being strong so I'll make the assumption that you can run other addons and do well because reasonably you can.
The Chain Mail Fragment and Broken Hilt should trigger on injuring a survivor in a hunt rather than a guard injuring as it's more consistent and doesn't punish you for going for the quick hit. There is a case for condensing these addons into one but as haemorrhage is very good on the knight I wouldn't mind trying just this to start with. Maybe changing the mangled to broken instead of changing the trigger could be fun too. Town Watch's Torch and Ironworker's Tongs are both very cute and fun but are too similar to warrant having both in the game. The Tong's are stronger but the Torch is more unique so I could go either way. As for a replacement, I wouldn't mind an addon that improves the haste for longer paths, although this is similar to the Lightweight Greaves which doesn't need a change beyond being fixed, or provides some information for kicking gen with a guard like a mini Nowhere to Hide, maybe 8m of the gen for 5 seconds. With Torch and Knight's Contract, I wouldn't mind some kind of counter/token system like with the Legions' bbf addon to help keep track of the effect.
Gritty Lump's effect isn't even a strict benefit and there aren't really "smart" ways to use it as on average the guard staying in a place is just as good as them moving away from it. Perhaps an addon that makes the guards move to the survivor quicker after spotting them or increases how quickly you recover your power, although this is already quite short. Maybe not for the addons which is food to make the guards invigorated in lore, but a transformative addon that lowers hunt time but maybe makes the guards faster or some other benefit could be fun. Similarly, Pillaged Mead isn't useful. You still need to walk around the pallet when using the Assassin or Jailer and the Carnifex breaks them basically instantly anyway so it's no use there and kicking gens faster isn't useful here. Perhaps an addon that allows you to see the aura of the survivor during/after the hunt to help you track them, especially at longer distances.
Finally, the Knight's Contract I'm not massive on but that addon isn't that weak. I don't like exposed on addons but if we're just looking at making weak addons better then perhaps increasing the duration of the effect could work or having it apply when the survivor enters hunt rather than on summon so the knight is more likely to be mobile when it applies. I will admit I suggested a lot of reworks which is a lot of work but many of these addons don't work well with the kit as a whole.
The double guard addons are nice for making unique builds so they should stay and the rest of the addons I feel like are generally strong enough to keep how they are or lead to interesting enough build options to keep around as more fun options, especially the purples. If the Knight had too much of one and not the other, like the Oni not really having interesting addons or Freddy not having good ones, that would be a problem but there's a good enough balance for it to be fine.
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It depends on what you mean by "bullying". If you want to deal with sabotage strategies or flashlight saves then the Knight can chase multiple survivors at once to get them to go away and the Doctor disables people's ability to use items. An instadown killer like the Cannibal or Hillbilly can quickly punish people for grouping up and being altruistic. In contrast, a killer like the Plague can keep people broken to stop it from being an option. Finally, the Nurse can hit anyone within 20m of her very quickly even if you're not that good so she's good at punishing people for grouping up.
Beyond that smart play is good. Looking for birds, scratch marks and keeping an ear out for teammates when picking up under a pallet or if people have flashlights. Recognising if people are taking body blocks and who you should chase as a result. What hooks they're likely to sabo and maybe not going to the closest one. There's no foolproof solution, people would never try "bullying" otherwise, but they're a way to make it harder or punish people for it and in a decent spot you can still win after survivors get a good save. Generally speaking "bullying" also requires not being on gens so you don't have to worry about them, focus on the survivors and you'll do well.
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The biggest issue is it's outclassed by agitation, and they both follow a very similar design. Both ensure hooks but iron grasps do nothing else while agitation also saves you time. Some other effects could be useful as just buffing the numbers still mean it and agitation still step on each other's feet, but given how many perks help deal with sabotaging/wiggle-outs it's hard to give it a unique effect that's useful.
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@JoeChill261 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336027#Comment_3336027
Even a 50% survival rate would not work in this game. There is a reason why the Devs aim for a 60% kill rate. It is an asymmetrical 1v4, that relies on Killers feeling powerful and survivors working together to overcome the Killers power advantage. All m1 killers feel weak to play, and feel weak to face. You play an m1 killer and survivors know its going to be an easier match, and will play accordingly, taking more risks and memeing around. Play a Nurse or Blight, and hardly any survivor will take risks or meme around, because recovering against a Nurse or Blight is much harder then an m1 killer.
You were probably not around the when survivor queue times were longer then actual matches. Take a look at VHS, a game that lets survivors kill the Killers. The power struggle is not there and is a huge problem with how the game feels and plays out. DBD is approaching that level of dissonance in regards to what it feels like to play against M1 killers. When an equally skilled set of survivors and m1 killer face off, the entire match boils down to the minimum time to optimally run a tile set to secure a health state. Thats literally all it boils down to, for m1 killers at equal skill level, and you know who wins? Survivors, because maps design gives survivors more then enough tiles to run killers to complete gens. M1 killers success is 99% due to survivors making micro mistakes. If survivors do not make mistakes, which when you get enough hours, they don't make many mistakes, M1 killers will not win, despite how well they play.
This is compounded by map design. Certain maps, and map variations, on M1 killers is an automatic loss for M1 killers, unless a survivor makes a huge mistake early, and the other survivors are overly altruistic and the killer leverages it.
Next kill rates posting will most likely see a 3-5% drop in kill rates for all the weaker killers, probably more for the top 5% of mmr, where it is already less viable to run M1 killers.
Ok ngl I meant 60% kill rate, not survival rate, but I pulled what's known as being "big dyslexic" and somehow missed that typo when I checked my message sorry. I don't disagree with what you're saying about other games like VHS (although that game has a couple of other problems) and killer needing to feel powerful.
Generally, some m1 killers need some buff although I do disagree with where this line is drawn sometimes. M1 killers like Wraith, Doctor and Dredge are in fine spots IMO and killers like Freddy and Clown aren't too far off the mark, killers like Tapper and Onryo need more support.
I'd also argue maps also need help but less so in being less survivor-sided but in being less extreme generally, Dead Dawg and Sheltered Woods are too good for killers while Garden of Joy and Cow Shed are too good for survivors. I'd say for every map that's an auto-win for competent survivors there's one that's an auto-win for competent killers, just might not feel this way because killers seem to use fewer map offerings at least in my experience.
I disagree with the kill rates dropping so drastically but I could definitely see them dropping by maybe 1-2%, although that's speculation.
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@Chordyceps said:
- The Maze Runner: Not something anyone really associates with horror or something anyone else wants to see in here I'm sure, but I think its one of my favorite books it would be cool. The Dredge's existance makes me feel better about the idea of a killer like The Greaver existing in the game, and the glade could make for an interesting map. I always remember the portion of the book where the walls don't close and the greavers pick off the gladers one by one at night, and that sounds like a pretty horror-like thing to me. I feel like Thomas and Theresa's telepathy could make for some decently interesting perks.
- The Last of Us: I would love to have the opportunity to play as/against a clicker. I honestly think theyre one of the coolest versions of zombies to be made in basically all of gaming. So many human characters could make for excellent survivors too. Joel, Ellie, Tommy, Dina. The fact that a show for it came out recently makes me feel pretty optimistic about its potential to make it in.
- Hotline Miami: Again, not really a horror thing, but the characters you play as kill enough people to qualify as a slasher for sure. The idea of different masks granting you different powers could be really fun. Obviously my main choice for the killer would be Jacket. For survivors, I think either Evan Wright or Beard could make for cool survivors. A nightclub map could be an interesting setting, and would finally give us a thematically appropriate map for trickster while we're at it.
I hadn't considered hotline but yes, or some none horror slasher. Thematically they contrast a lot but even as a legion skin I would love it.
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Alien is one that interests me quite a bit as they're a few ways of doing it.
Cthulu mythos is one of my favourite kinds of horror however not sure how well it translates to what is essentially slasher horror. Wilbur Whateley, from The Dunwich Horror book, could be interesting. He is never shown to fight in the books but maybe he could collect pieces of the Necronomicon to bring upon his brother and play similarly to a killer like Oni or Myers. The biggest issue would be implying the entity is more powerful than Yog-Sothoth, or at least smarter to trick Wilbur.
Not a chapter but a don't starve cross over with cosmetics would be cute.
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I wouldn't mind a 60% survival rate. My average session is about 3 games so if I escape one of those I'll feel good and generally with killer I feel good as long as I feel like any loss was my fault or in my control. I believe the kill rate was higher than this since the last time it was shared so maybe some nerfs are needed for the stronger killer options, I believe this would generally be more impactful than buffs to weaker survivor options. The HUD change does help so maybe better to see if it settles before saying too much.
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@RaSavage42 said:
Surveillance and Oppression... it's not as good as others but it's underrated
Corrupt and Whispers... go toward the blocked Gens until Whispers activates
Surveillance and Whispers... One for Gens and the other for Survivors
Now put all of those perks together... Oppression, Surveillance, Corrupt and Whispers
Plus hearing a Gen being worked on the walking up to it like "What'cha dooooiiinng" is hilarious
Surveillance is a nice perk, lots of nice combos. I like using it with the Freddy addon which also makes gens louder to make them very loud, or knight who can easily tag gens from a distance if he needs to. Tried corrupt + whispers on Onryo and was quite nice on that killer, being able to teleport around with it and find people thanks for the suggestion.
@Phantom_ said:
Distortion + Wiretap, I'll get to see the Killer's aura, but they won't see mine 😈 (<< that might have been my inner GF talking 👀)
Starstruck and Mad Grit against SWF's, it's just too funny when they try to take hits/sabbo.
I often run distortion with my mentioned fogwise toolbox combo to become the info master myself, certainly feels very crafty to use just like ghost face.
@Solomonkane said:
Resurgence + Solidarity, while rather niche, I enjoy the feeling of healing the person who unhooked me, and we both get healed to full in the process.
And then my main build of Red Herring/Blast Mine/Head on/Flashbang, the adrenaline rush I get from when everything lines up and I get these perks off in succession.
As far as killer goes, one of my personal favorites is Rancor + Nemesis for obvious reasons. Add Furtive Chase for some extra roulette nonsense.
I've personally not considered that first one but sounds nice tbh. Rancour roulette can be fun too.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334680#Comment_3334680
Simply knowing what a teammate is doing does not put solos anywhere near the level of a SWF good comms. I've benched players for bad comms and denied players outright after tryouts because of comms. "I'm on a gen"'/"I'm on a totem" are not comms. You're telling the team nothing by saying that. The person in chase has no idea where "the gen" is. A comp call-out is "I'm on a gen (here) at (percentage)" or "I'm in a chase (here) going (there). I used (pallet)." The new HUD for solo queue doesn't even begin to approach that. Basic SWF comms do very little against a good killer, and very few SWFs have good descriptive comms.
A very good point and way of putting it, glad to hear people who put this into good words from their own experience.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3335032#Comment_3335032
You presume incorrectly that I will continue to play killer.
I remember the original killer strike.
What was those about again? I remember them happening but I didn't really care at the time, I just played normally and didn't see a difference in my games.
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@DBDVulture said:
1)Take 4 tournament teams from one of the last DBD tournaments.
2)Randomly assort them so that each team has 1 player from each of the teams.
3)Give one of these four new voice teams voice coms.
4) Do not let the teams plan out their perks/items before the game.
What happens? The team with the voice coms win. Everyone involved is a really good player but the difference is that the teams that can communicate are more effective.
That team can say things like :
There's a hex totem where I went down.
The killer shack generator is 90% completed.
If he leaves me for a few seconds I have unbreakable.
Keep doing generators I have deliverance.
Playing against 2x teams of 2 man SWF used to be "fine". Now with the new hud these four players play much more like a 4 man SWF. That's not fair. What you're telling me is that I need to only play Nurse/Blight every game to compensate. And I need to tunnel one player out with the first three hooks while spreading pressure.
I mean we may have to disagree with that last bit, if you think you need to play the best killers with the best builds and the absolute best strategy to win against any coordinated team then go ahead, I disagree with the extreme but we all play differently and work well with different strategies.
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@Firellius said:
While it's certainly true that pre-game co-ordination is strong, I also think that the most powerful thing survivors can do isn't just being efficient on gens, it's turning a 1v1 chase into a 2v1. Chain flashlight-saves, pallet saves, sabo saves, breakout + boil over, all the usual bully squad trappings. And that requires constant intel and coordination.
I think killers should get better pick-up protection after failing a hook.
Yes, however, I believe this is something countable and inefficient. Sabo saves and flash saves do require coordination but also require conditions the killer can play around with, such as limited availability of hooks and angles, and they have risks. Going for a flashlight save can often get the killer an extra down or health state if you're not careful and requires you to go off your objective for a period of time giving the killer a large benefit if it goes wrong. Sabo plays similarly can be played around by going for different hooks as well as time, item and perks dedicated to not doing objective or more consistent survival. These kinds of "bully squads" also require pregame coordination of agreeing upon it beforehand and wouldn't be possible otherwise. It's potentially very powerful but I'd say the risk, counterplay and commitment stops it from being too strong.
Ultimately though what you're talking about isn't affected by the hud changes either so I doubt it's going to appear more than it was before.
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@KingDeathly said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334500#Comment_3334500
Really. How can you even say this game is killer sides? Why don't you take a trip down memory lane, and go read the patch notes on how nearly every update has been for survivor, including the one we just got with the hud, and the next one being killer perk nerfs. We only got a killer update a few months ago, and then get ignored while killers get nerfs, and survivors get buffs nearly every update. Don't speak lies.
They never said it was killer-sided, they just said regardless of whether killer-sided or survivor-sided killers have a bias towards low levels of play.
Killers can very easily snowball off a survivor's mistake while being punished less for their own at lower levels of play. Remember low levels so the concept of certain perks giving a "second chance" isn't as applicable as people run meta a lot less. A survivor makes a single mistake in a chase and can immediately go down while the killer can make a mistake and lose a small bit of time, which at lower levels with less gen efficiency matters less. Survivors often need good coordination or perks to punish killer mistakes while killers often punish mistakes by hitting the survivor and getting a hook which is easier.
At higher levels where survivors are coordinated better, have those perks they need and are more gen efficient it's easier to punish killer mistakes while getting away with your own making that part of the playing field more even. Killers do get their own benefits, namely in perks and add-ons used, but the strengths that can make killer seem unbeatable early on in a player's game time, a very important factor in horror, dissipate as you go up the levels of play and people get better.
Also, I don't see what you mean about the "memory lane" of updates. DS nerfs, infinities gone, toolbox nerf. I'm not saying "Oh pity the survivors they've had it so rough" but to say that nearly every patch favours survivor is just plain wrong. Yes, killer perks often get nerfed however the killers themselves have gotten much stronger and survivor perks get nerfed too. Given killer generally is much stronger than they were on release, which isn't a bad thing, it's not unreasonable to say that updates generally favour killer, if not in quantity then the quality of buffs and nerfs at least.
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I would have to disagree. The "swf" experience does exist but most people in swf or access to coms are playing with friends and not sweating so its prevalence is greatly exaggerated, at least in my experience. The added hud info helps survivors but also doesn't give nearly as much detail as comms can, namely killer perks or their playstyle, in match and more importantly doesn't give survivors the ability to plan their builds with each other any better, which I'd say is the true strength of comms.
I'd say the buffs in recent times have generally favoured killer. On both sides, perks were nerfed quite equally but the new meta that came has much stronger perks and options on the killer side between eruption and pain res builds. Gen regression has remained about the same, although the %s are lower it ends up being comparable as you're getting a % of a bigger number. The general buff I would say are more subtle but stronger on killer as you do everything a little bit faster while gens take longer which is more consistently useful than the base bt. I would say the hud changes help survivors but with the release of the last chapter is probably the strongest killer has ever been with the gen kick meta in full swing, with the changes we've just seen it's hard to say what's to come but I imagine killer will still be quite strong.
The killer endgame is stronger with no more ds or otr in the late game, the early game is stronger with longer gen times and the midgame is better with the faster attack cooldown. Survivors obviously got some buffs and have some issues of being too strong in some areas too but generally, I would say killer is stronger. Notably, killer perks have been nerfed to in theory make these parts of the game weaker for killer however the buffs don't require killer perks in use while the nerfs are dependent on the perks the killer is using.
I wouldn't like to use terms like survivor-sided or killer-sided as I believe they give the wrong impression and it's a bit more nuanced than that but if I had to pick a side to say is stronger I would say killer.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3331078#Comment_3331078
Thing is - I'm not sure his purps are working properly. The Assassin one and the Jailer one to be specific.
The former shows no aura and the latter just seems to give the same speed boost as all summons if you use him at range.
I couldn't say I've not used them this patch but if they're bugged I hope they get fixed. Maybe go into a custom with some bots and test it.
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Plague is definitely more explosive and has higher potential, but Wesker is generally more consistent. Wesker is similar to nemesis as they both come with a good balance of information and chase, Wesker trading off the zombies for map mobility and nemesis' strong late game for being more well-rounded. Plague is probably the most comparable to huntress but might be one of the most unique killers in the game, she's quite difficult because of this and because survivors have a lot of input on what you can do you need to be very adaptive. Plague is potentially the stronger of the two but I would also say is the harder, Wesker is good regardless of how well you play him.
A bit of advice generally, don't worry about survivor items. A good team with medkits will be a struggle but a bad team with good items is still a bad team. Strong items definitely help survivors but is rarely what loses you a match, they mostly turn close games into hard games but you can do the same with addons.
General advice for both killers, Wesker's bound is difficult to use and although you can "back bound" people constantly it's worth experimenting with how to use it in loops. Also, avoid addons like unicorn medallion, crank or other addons that change the bound early on, they're good but it'll become a struggle to unlearn them. My advice for starting addons is the leather gloves and maybe the red herbs as this allows you to use your power more and buy you more time to experiment with using it.
For plague the projectile is very unique, take your time to learn it it's weird. Information perks are very strong on plague so don't just run 4 slowdowns you'll be shooting yourself in the foot. As for addons, I'd say avoid them early on apples do give you more uses of corrupt purge but a large part of plague is learning to play the 1v4 and these addons change that significantly and using addons that change the purge itself obviously will mess up you mechanics long term.
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I'd say still below average but in a healthy spot similar to killers like wraith a doctor, he can perform well without too much struggle or luck but does need a bit. His ability to surprise survivors on gens at range now is very good and demands a fast reaction time, using his powers around loops is unpredictable now and more regression when damaging a gen is nice. I feel like the level 1 style of the knight of step 1) place guard stationary at tile, step 2) survivor holds w and step 3) repeat hasn't really changed but the more advanced options are more viable and easier to pull off making him feel a lot better to play and perform better against smarter survivors as you can deal with people hold w if you're smart.
Would also like to give a second to praise his addons. Although the greens aren't particularly useful and I'm not massive on the exposed addons the rest feel like they're genuinely well-designed. They're strong and impactful but very few feel generic meaning you actually have to consider which addons you bring with which builds instead of going "well this one had better numbers so I go for this one" like you often see with killers like the Oni or the Wraith. I feel like we've seen this kind of addon design on the dredge and the trapper rework too and I hope we see more of it in the future.
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Can I ask why?
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@Marik1987 said:
Allow me to introduce you:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/AEZV8M5VGVM4/freddy-p100.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/2ZMHZ7DZ3RRU/1323212312.png
Now its time for you to enter my Nightmares! (Wow, exactly 800 Paint Thinners LOL)
Honestly, I respect it, I feel like Freddy is more fun than people give him credit for and I do generally enjoy him myself. Just have no motivation to put bp into him because the only addons I care about with him are the jump rope and the recovery addons (I can't do dream pallets, I feel like there is no strategy in using them beyond hoping survivors fall for them which stops being rewarding quite quickly) so not getting to high prestige any time soon.
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Not fully committing to full p100 yet but I'm trying to get the Knight to p9 at the moment because I like the perks and killer. Also have tried getting Pig and deathslinger to higher prestige but the only character I've gotten past p12 is Cheryl who's about p20. But one day I wouldn't mind committing to the grind for a killer, probably one of the 3 I already mentioned or maybe a killer like plague, ghostie or doctor as my favourites when I started playing (and to this day still some of my favourites).
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@Pulsar said:
I'd like to see a system implemented where Killers you haven't gone against in a while are weighted heavier than others.
If you've played against 5 Legion's in a night, weight them to the bottom of the list. If you haven't seen a Billy in a long time, try to push them in.
Sounds cute but doesn't this just end up pushing killers for playing killers who are popular by giving them a long queue? Like "oh wow everyone loves playing [insert killer here], we're so glad everyone brought and is enjoying this chapter and as a special reward have a longer queue." On one hand, it would be nice to incentivise more variety but oh no I got my blight daily so I must be punished with a queue that's twice as long for trying to complete it.
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@FengShuiExe said:
Maybe I missed something, when did Eruption get so strong? I always thought it was just ok. The amount of times I caught survivors with eruption seemed small, it just felt like a guaranteed Jolt/Surge
It became strong when people started to realise how spammable it's with other perks. Kicking a gen with Call of Brine, Overcharge and Eruption is a great way to defend it but nothing but space between the gens stops them from kicking all the gens like this. Eruption is the most noteworthy of these 3, the potential time it saves is the highest and it's not inconsistent at reaching this potential and people have realised getting hit by a 25-second incapacitated is not fun when the killer doesn't chase you leading you not interacting with the killer or objectives or anything.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330660#Comment_3330660
I just have to ask this:
Do you know that there is a penalty for both Survivors when they repair a Gen together? And Prove Thyself just removes the Penalty and does NOT grant extra progress?
Really, asking because I have seen many people who did not know this.
@Topic:
Prove Thyself is really not a problem. For the Killer it is better if two Survivors are on one Gen with Prove Thyself compared to two Survivors on two Gens without it. The main reason why people bring Prove Thyself are just Bloodpoints, you cap out on Objectives pretty fast with it. Especially now that the BP-Gain has been buffed to 10k overall in Objectives.
I would say, if you remove the Speedboost (or rather: negation of the penalty), you would still see a lot of Prove Thyselfs. If you would keep the Speedboost, but remove the BPs, you will probably remove the Perk from the Loadouts.
No, it's much worse for survivors to stack prove. I understand it is basically the same time as splitting but there are two key factors, you can't defend a gen that's already completed and survivors only need to do 5 gens, not 7. Having two gens at 50 means you can kick them, keep survivors away or even use perks to defend them. This allows the killer to create a back-and-forth that can be played around to try and win. If the survivors stack with prove and get one gen to 100 instead you completely remove this option. Additionally, once you get to 1 gen left stacking with prove can complete the last gen super quickly where there wouldn't be many benefits to having multiple gens at 50. Most other speed options are either limited by needing to be "earnt" (weird term in the case of resilience but same idea), having limited use (toolboxes) or being inconsistent (mostly just stakeout). As long as your team cooperates, which maybe you see as a large cost, prove has none of these issues so while isn't unique in getting gens done quickly it's the most reliable throughout a match.
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330660#Comment_3330660
My brother in christ it makes it 7 seconds faster. You're acting like gens take 15 seconds with Prove.
7 seconds isn't massive but it's certainly enough to make a significant difference especially when you consider this is similar to what other gen speed options offer, especially when you can do it multiple times.
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@WitchKing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330671#Comment_3330671
There are still perks like Pentimento and Thrill but it is true that hexes have a bit of a problem. I mean, killer has to bring another perk to save one of his hexes, meanwhile survs may just hold E for 14 seconds and get their boon for free
Yes but they need to bless for 14 seconds to get any value out of the perk, meanwhile you could completely forget you have a hex perk and it still carries the game for you. I'd say generally hexes are fine as there is a significant reward when they stay up and winning a match as killer with 3 perks is doable, basically what happens with no way out or noed if you win before all gens are done. I'd say the reason they get the reputation they do is that hexes like ruin don't win matches solo off not being cleansed any more and there aren't any super generic hexes beyond pentimento, which requires more hexes. Blood favour, crowd control, face the darkness, plaything and ruin are all good hexes which can be run by themselves on the right killers but not on everyone, and with pentimento, there is always a reason for any killer to run a hex. I feel like some players need to understand risk rewards better and how to use these perks, just because the perks go early sometimes doesn't mean it needs to solo handily win you the game the rest of the time you do have 3 other perks and 2 addons.
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What wizardry is this post, tell me your secrets warlock how did you do that?
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@Pulsar said:
PT isn't an issue.
It saves you what, 7 seconds? It's better for you if Survivors group up on gens, even if they have the massively OP perk Prove Thyself that shaves off a completely ludicrous 7 seconds.
I really wouldn't care if it got nerfed because it doesn't do anything anyway, but I think we should be focusing on different perks that ACTUALLY cause issues.
I would say it's an issue not due to efficiency but due to commitment. Being able to reliably and repeatably do gens in that little time with two people leaves little room for the killer the defend the gen or interrupt it. Unlike toolboxes, the perk has no upper limit on how much it can be used but unlike resilience or fast track, it can be used right out the gate. If it only worked early due to having capped usage or late due to needing to be earned, which could be a funny play on words given its name, I wouldn't mind it or if it was a little slower but doing a gen in that time repeatably is a bit much. Maybe it's a play-style thing and against other players it's not too bad but it's not something you can exactly adapt to in a match because you never have a solid idea on if they have it unless it's too late. Hyperfocus is inconsistent when you try to use it due to needing to get skill checks, resilience doesn't work early game and toolboxes have limited use, prove doesn't really have any of these things though. Not saying it's the end of the world biggest problem ever but suggesting it gets changed isn't unreasonable. I will say however, it's a perk that is useful for breaking 3 gens which I can appreciate being in the game.
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I agree the 3 gens on this map are a bit good, it's a large map but considering about a 1/4 doesn't have any objectives (behind main) it really isn't. Maybe a good idea to push the gens more towards the edges to help create space or make the map generation a bit more careful to space them out?
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@Tsulan said:
All non meta perk should get either a overhaul or buff. We need to have more strong variety for both sides. More synergies between the perks to allow for more builds. Instead of only "fixing" the same 5 perks that continue to be meta.
Yay and nay. Some non-meta perks aren't even that bad but just unfavoured. Ruin getting nerfed just as a bunch of gen-kicking perks that it synergies poorly with was just bad timing, the perk is good just has very poor synergy with the current meta. Similarly lithe and overcome aren't exactly meta but in a game where most survivors run dh of course other exhaustion perks aren't seeing use. In a world where dh doesn't exist, I'm sure people would use more lithe and overcome and in a meta where killers want hex synergy or surveillance, ruin would be much more prevalent. These perks don't really need buff they just need to wait for the right meta and fill their niches in the meantime. Ruin is still good on killers like legion and overcome works well with lucky break, until the limelight comes I'm sure they're fine in their roles currently.
Furthermore, if a perk is a problem what does buffing do? Make a bigger problem that power creeps the old one? Not all perks that are meta are problems but if your solution to the ones that are/have problems is to make more I'm not sure that helps long term.
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@Ithiria said:
Could I throw in a couple more?
Resilience should apply hemorrhage. If you 99 a heal it is a pretty low-risk gen speed bonus.
You could buff its effect a bit if you'd like to help it out, like make it affect mending and locker animations so that it genuinely does buff almost every action speed. That wouldn't be terribly OP imo as being stuck in the injured state is something you would not like to be in, and it'd be novel to have a perk that affects mending.
Calm Spirit should have its 30% slower totem time removed. It doesn't need this downside due to how absolutely niche of a perk it is.
Revert the self-care nerf, it wasn't necessary.
Windows might deserve a nerf... if I were to do it I would return it disabling on fast vaults for a bit. This leaves it a really good scouting perk while making it not play the game for you. This perk could also be left alone too, I don't think it's much of a problem in itself, any problems with it are more because it exposes how badly the map design punishes certain killers.
Oppression: Instead of reducing the cooldown as many suggest, they could consider having it reveal every gen it affects. Currently, you only know what gens it hits if someone on it fails a skillcheck. This would make it a neat info perk, in addition to its current role of being like a super diet ruin that regresses inactive gens.
I personally don't mind resilience and it debuffing you when injured kind of goes against the idea of being "resilient" but your version is a cool idea, I'd say better implemented as its own perk.
I wouldn't mind self-care going to 40% (40-second heal if I'm right) however I find that I value reliable self-healing very highly so I could be overhyping it and 50% would be fine.
Windows nerf may not be an awful idea, it does allow people to turn their brains off quite a bit however it doesn't provide a massive benefit beyond that and is a nice option to use yourself.
That's a nice oppression change I've not heard before, honestly focusing more on the information side of things sounds fun.
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@TeabaggingGhostface said:
Amanda's secret needs a big buff, it needs to work every time they finish a search, for a purple addon its extremely underwhelming
A bit necro but only just read this, you do realise how bad of an idea this is? Like every search. So if you need 4 searches with an active trap, after each one the killer knows where you are and what you doing to make removing the trap impossible and force a head pop. Given a large map and 4 searches, you need very little input to force a pop and this gives you so many good opportunities to do so. I agree it's not the strongest option on the strongest killer but this would be kinda unfair.
@TeabaggingGhostface said:
A big shout out to video tape and razor wires causing many an early game dc
A meme combo but its funny
Ngl I've seen this and it's very goofy. Have you ever had someone miss a skill check getting off the box when you're approaching, I'd want to dc after that sounds like bs but good cheese.
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@FellowKillerMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329894#Comment_3329894
I've experienced both and Dead Hard generates a very similar feeling to what eruption creates. Except eruption doesn't force me to chase and mind game someone for that additional 30 seconds.
Personal take I guess but that sounds more enjoyable than sitting around for 25 seconds doing nothing. Neither are great at the moment though.
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@TheWheelOfCheese said:
Dead Hard: The change is mostly fine. I'm not sure it will change that much though. The problematic uses are typically the 50/50 at a pallet/window, which doesn't change except that it may force them to drop the pallet after being hit. For a window 50/50 there is effectively no change as much of the speed boost was already eaten up vaulting.
Off the Record: I agree with these changes, but I have one tweak to propose. The long cooldown has never made much sense to me; if you are being tunneled, you're almost always going to get hit really soon, closer to 20 seconds. The long cooldown only encourages new players to play immersed and not contribute once they are safely away from the killer, lest they lose their protection. The tweak I propose is that the timer changes to either 20 or 30 seconds, but the timer is paused when the killer is within 16m or 24m; additionally, the survivor loses collision with other players. Like the longer timer, this strongly discourages the killer from waiting it out. Unlike the longer time, it both prevents OTR from being used to body block counter to its purpose (collision is removed), and it doesn't incentivize players to refrain from working on their objective to keep their protection.
Hyperfocus: Synergizing with toolboxes is indeed a problem, as toolboxes guarantee 3 skill checks. I'm fine with Hyperfocus not gaining tokens or awarding bonus progression while a toolbox is in use. Alternatively, if Hyperfocus is equipped, it could suppress the skill checks the toolbox usually generates.
Circle of Healing: Usage with a medkit is only part of the problem. CoH effectively deletes an entire playstyle, one that weaker killers rely on: hit and run. Spreading injury is a great way to create pressure. When CoH first released, playing nearly every M1 killer was absolutely miserable because your primary mechanism to generate pressure was taken away from you. Now that CoH isn't the shiny new toy and has undergone a few nerfs, those killers are somewhat viable again. However, if you load into a match with CoH on such a killer, you're very likely to have a hard time. CoH needs some tweak that retains its spirit, but doesn't delete an entire killer playstyle just by being in the match. Maybe it doesn't grant the self-heal ability -- or, there is no speed bonus whatsoever when a teammate heals you (it's purely a self-heal thing). Something needs to be done, though.
Better than New: Similar to the above, having the healing speed boost last until down punishes hit-and-run. You saying that this perk would "act as a punishment to killers who don't go for downs" pretty much makes this point for me.
Pain res: Honestly a 3% nerf might actually be too little for a map-wide perk. Maybe it could go the PGTW route and instead have it take off 18-20% of the gen's total progress instead of a flat amount of progress.
Deadlock: I think your proposal is good. My only worry is that the precondition means a killer who is struggling to get hits isn't going to get value out of the perk. It might also cause some problems with certain killer powers (for example, Trapper can injure with a trap across the map).
Overcharge and CoB: Honestly, I'm not a fan of the design of either perk and would probably opt to rework them. Ruin-style x% regression increase on-demand is not interesting. CoB is like mini-Ruin plus mini-Surveillance. Overcharge is also like mini-Ruin, except with the surprise skill check, which I kind of like. I'm not sure how to address it for newer players, but limiting how often it can be used isn't the right answer, I don't think. Basically, I'd rather both perks did something entirely different than what they do right now, but I don't really have any good ideas to give.
Grim Embrace: I think 60s is a bit overtuned, and aura after a hook is redundant with BBQ (I'm not even sure why the perk currently has that effect). Another aura reading effect could be cool, like: for the duration the generators are blocked, any time a survivor moves more than 16m away from a generator (even completed ones) they have their auras revealed for 3 seconds. This creates an interesting dilemma for the survivors: stay near the generator they were on or risk being revealed. It also makes generators act like traps, revealing any survivor who goes near one and then leaves it.
For DH I agree it doesn't change much and although I think it's unhealthy at the moment that's mostly due to needing to play around it as a default, with a weaker effect playing not playing around it until you see it is less punishing and a lower play rate from it being weaker would hopefully influence that too. The 50/50s definitely would still exist but the punishment for failure would be less which could make up for that.
Off the record change is cool. If you're going to remove collision I don't mind that for all endurance to discourage off the hook blocking, stops survivors from getting themselves tunnelled, if not you may make the perk a bit too much. It provides 4 effects on a timer that constantly pauses and unpauses with some effects deactivating early and although it does the most to make the perk fair it does make it a bit of a headache. Also, the timer pausing in its current suggested state would make it much stronger on smaller maps and act as a way to find out if a stealth killer is nearby.
Personally, I disagree that CoH completely invalidates spreading pressure, it makes it weaker while the boon is up but I would say it doesn't completely invalidate it, rather it requires you to change your tactic around it such as focusing on removing map resources rather than getting hits. I don't usually like to add personal elements to these kinds of discussions but some of my favourite types of killers are hit and run killers like ghost face and wraith so hopefully you can believe I'm not talking out of my ass here although maybe we have to agree to disagree on the impact this perk has on a match. Either way glad we can agree that both this and hyperfocus have problematic elements with items.
Having a perk be good against hit and run isn't an issue even if that strategy isn't good, because then the perk wouldn't see use. You could argue it's an issue if the perk is seeing play even if the strategy isn't good but with my suggested change to better than new it would be an option for when a strategy like hit and run or defensive gen play are good currently. It isn't even good against these tactics so even if they were good the current perk wouldn't see play, the plan behind this change is to keep this idea of a stronger recovery perk in tack although maybe I went too far with it.
For pain res, I don't disagree but I would be concerned that it would be hard to evaluate what the perk is really doing for you. It hits a gen, who knows which one, which had some progress and regressed it by an unknown amount. It also overlaps with pop goes the weasel which I'm not massive with as it already does this quite a bit, but in terms of making the perk fairer to play against your suggestion might go a bit further. Alternatively, you could do 10% regression but we'd be here all day arguing about small numbers like that if we wanted to.
For deadlock yes but if you're going that long without a hit I don't see why the perk needs to hold your hand. Even if you're struggling I feel like most of the time you'll be able to get it back before you need it again unless the survivors have 3 gens close to completion.
Overcharge and CoB are fair enough, you could redesign them but I don't think they're unsalvagable in their current state and it's a lot of work to make completely new effects.
Grim Embrace, your idea is interesting although in practice serves a similar function. The aura reading is there otherwise survivors would just hide for 45 seconds as without objectives they have no incentive to take risks which may hurt them down the line. But you may be right 60 seconds is a long time.
@Brix said:
Thrilling Tremors Cooldown 40 instead of 60
Opressions Cooldown 30 instead of 80
Give Urban evasion an extra buff where footsteps are near silent or give this to Lightweight
Calm spirit remove the penalty for interactions with side objectives (Boons/Totems)
Buff Dance with me duration of no scratchmarks from 3 seconds to 5
Premonition when looking in the angle of 45 degrees to the killer not only a noise notification triggers but u see the killers aura for 3 seconds
Quick Gambit buff so it shows teammates you have this perk equipped visually like Open handed, additionally you can see each others aura in the 24m Radius.
Red Herring after repairing a gen for 25% of its progress this perk activates, Gens which survivors are not actively worked on by any Survivor light up Yellow, select one gen with holding shift when beeing inside a locker and the Killer gains a loud notification on that gen. Afterwards the perk deactivates until the requirement is met again.
Residual Manifest You are granted a basic Flashlight but u have the chance to get a higher rarity Flashlight by RNG
Up the ante Luck now also effects Chests and which items will spawn inside
Dissolution when this perk activates Survivors no longer get told by an icon this perk is active.
Dragons Grip Cooldown reduced from 80 to 60 and the time the effect lasts on the gen is increased from 30 seconds to 45 seconds.
Eruption incapacitated effect removed and replaced by beeing Oblivious for 60 seconds when hit from it while working on the gen, the regression lost is increased from 10 to 15%.
Fire up for each gen that is completed the Killer gets 6% (was 4) faster action speed.
Furtive chase each time you hook the Obsession up to 4 tokens your Terror Radius decreases by 5% outside of chase and increases for each stack by 5% in chase. ( The change from meters to % in this perk is changed so Killers with a low TR wont be granted a 0m TR)
Gearhead when hitting a great skillcheck by any means, the Killer now sees the Survivors aura for 10 seconds. (including by perks like Overcharge,Opression)
Hex: Huntress Lullaby No longer needs to build in power. It will have its full strength from the beginning until cleansed.
Hex: Thrill of the hunt changed to a non Hex and the Speed penalty will be 30% by default
And many more i could think of
Many of these are quite nice. Premonition would probably be too much unless you specifically made it not trigger in chase unless it already works like that.
Silent footsteps I'm not massive on only because it makes tracking healthy survivors while blinded impossible and would be kind of annoying to play against a healthy survivor pre-dropping and blinding you at every pallet if they have this.
Up the ante sounds cool but that sounds a lot like plunders, although maybe luck needs a look at as a mechanic.
Dissolution isn't the strongest but would probably be unfair if the survivors didn't know as it triggering almost always gives the killer a free down.
Furtive chase giving a % decrease in tr is interesting and I'm not entirely sure if that's how it should work, but having it increase and decrease in and out of chase sounds fun.
Hex: Thrill of the Hunt I would say benefits more from being a hex because the survivors have to spend a lot of time cleansing it, it'd be more consistent but at 30% and not giving the survivors the totem to waste time on you'd probably make it weaker than it is now.
The rest seem like genuinely good changes, not entirely sold on red hearing but not entirely sure what's wrong for me not to be sold, and would like to see these tested.
Although the perk has its problems I would like to make one case for its existence. Against long, grindy matches survivors have very few options to win, in a way this is ok as the killer has to force these but with the power of slowdown that isn't too hard to get, and having options on the survivor side to break these statemates like strong healing options or perks that get more value over time is healthy. Generally speaking, aggressive killer play and going for downs will beat a circle of healing because the survivors will get fewer chances to heal which although not equally viable on all killers I don't think is impossible on any killer except maybe hag. As a result, it forces the killer to adapt and actively try and end the stalemate by going for a win. The one thing I will say is on stronger survivor maps it could be seen as unfair to ask weaker killers to compete with this however you could argue this is an issue with those killers or maps instead.
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@Wexton said:
I want the crow perks to be buffed, spies from the shadows and the other survivor one I don't really remember the name of.
Calm spirit? I wouldn't mind more interactions with crows, they're a fun part of the game and birds are cool.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3329153#Comment_3329153
Fair point.
So the survivors can´t do much during those 25 seconds (apart from repositioning). The time between the down and the end of the hooking animation is aprox 20-25 seconds. Unless the survivor gets downed right under a hook.
How about DH? It also prolongs chases. Often for more than 25 seconds and since its meta, a killer is bound to face it several times per match. Is that ok?
The advantage of Eruption for survivors is, that the killer often has to break chases in order to kick gens. This prevents chases/downs and gives survivors the option to go for something else instead of starting a chase.
Eruption isn´t unhealthy for DbD. At least not unhealthier than other perks. We had really healthy perk/combos like Undying Ruin. That got nerfed hard and then Eruption was buffed to give killers something. What do people think will happen when Eruption gets nerfed? There will come something else. Something that might be scarier. Just saying.
Yes, but when DH extends a chase by 25 seconds the killer and survivor are still playing the game afterwards while eruption leaves the survivor doing nothing for 25 seconds. If the killer is kicking gens instead of chasing survivors then you remove player vs player interaction in the PVP game and because eruption can be used once per gen per down.
I won't argue DH doesn't have its issue for game health but while it may be unfun to play against you are at least playing the game when it wastes your time, instead of sitting around doing nothing. There are other perks that encourage killers to go around kicking gens like call of brine and overcharge but those perks also encourage the killer to chase survivors off the gen after kicking it to get the regression, instead of going to the next gen and repeating; they also don't stun for 25 seconds. Eruption's problems are most not unique but they're a unique combination of problems that make it stand out as an issue. Balance aside, if you can show me someone who loads into the game with the intent to play it and then enjoys being stunned for 25 seconds for trying to play the game please do but I do not believe anyone finds the effect of a 25-second stun interesting to play against when it's a punishment for the thing you're supposed to be doing.
Finally, ruin undying wasn't healthy IMO although was healthier than eruption, assuming we're talking about release undying. I liked the fact it did encourage killers to actively chase survivors and that part of the game played out as normal but the fact survivors had to cleanse a random number of totems means even if you could find all the totems quickly because you're skilled and know all the totem spawns, you'd lose because spending time to cleanse 5 totems while ruin is active does lose you the game regardless of efficiency and not cleansing ruin would usually lose you the game against a competent killer. Just because eruption came after ruin undying doesn't mean that every meta will be worse after eruption, that's an absurd extrapolation based on no good reasoning. Looking at it it could be fair to assume that pain res could become meta or maybe no way out and deadlock which are generally considered to be fine to play against, at least in my experience.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328325#Comment_3328325
Why is erruption unhealthy?
The incapacitated is basically a 25-second stun because you have nothing to do during that time, dodging that stun is a random guess or requires you not to touch the gen (easier said than done if they're only 3 gens left and it can be on all of them) and it leads to drawn out matches which take a very long time but don't encourage players to interact with each other more than a standard length match because the killer is constantly kicking gens and survivors are stunned continuously. It's also a perk that does better against solo than swf and even with the changes to the hud this holds true, considering this is one of the most used perks at the moment this leads to significant discrepancies to the balance and experience of solo and swf.
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@NewPlayer100102 said:
Here's a thing:
I want Eruption changed, not in the way you do but I do want it changed. I don't want a new perk sold in its place. I would like some new perks sold that synergize with it.
I need a gen regression perk that works consistently against a well organized SWF. Some people suggested locking gens, maybe it locks each gen that was kicked for 10 seconds on each down, or something. What I just said might be too weak or OP I'm not sure, and I won't know until it gets tested. And I won't be interested in any test until someone aside from myself accepts the problem.
Beating solo que players isn't usually difficult, and Eruption doesn't work well when people are paying attention AND attentive to team mate prompts(Like a normal SWF would be). But its pretty much the only perk you have in place that can assist you toward the end of a match, when gens have gone quickly and the SWF has forced hook rotation(or you've allowed them to manipulate it). With Eruption sometimes you can tire them out and they will make a mistake, this will get the gen person(s) off the gen and allow you to pursue a second down and hook(because you already had 1 that triggered eruption). This is what I want Eruption to solve, and it currently doesn't do that, because as has been said by much better survivors than myself, let go of the generator and walking toward the unhook site counters it.
In actual play you can dodge the debuff. I dodge the debuff with bond and looking at the screen of the player next to me, and occasionally asking "W T F is going on that I can't see from here, with my screen filled with gen". From the other side, stopping to kick a gen means the player on that gen makes it to the next tile. This slows a chase down to the point where its usually not worth starting.
It is not better to fix some issues and ignore others if you make game play goals impossible for some players. I don't think this should ever be done. I think this legitimately leads to people silently leaving. Killers need a way to compete with SWF at their highest level, this solution needs to keep in mind that it is 4 brains against 1. And expecting the 1 to be a genius and limiting them to 3-4 of the available killers, while the opposing 4 can be drunken, ********, and running 3 games at once is not acceptable.
Yah, its not fun. If you are having fun holding the gen repair button down, Eruption will wreck that. If Eruption wrecks your PvGenerator time you could rush at the killer and start t-bag. This might be fun and PvP.
I agree with you on the next one. I'd rather not kick generators, the animation is silly. I'd rather chase survivors. If all generators would lock for 10 seconds or more each time I hit a survivor I think that would be a great place to start testing from.
The people I wind up playing against seem to love camping and tunneling. I know that sounds insane(to some) but, its true. At any time the SWF I'm forced to face can leave the hook area, do gens or just walk out the exit gate. They, 99% of the time refuse to do this. They will rush the killer, body block the killer, grab dance the hook with the killer, ANYTHING except leave/expedite the leaving process. They basically force you to camp by cornering the killer into a chase around the hook. They force a tunnel via blocking on the unhook OR making it impossible to tell who just got unhooked. This is intentional, and is fully under their control. Solo players are playing a different game, they clearly don't want this stuff, but(when playing a killer) I'm not the one laying out or perpetuating how the end game is played.
I play survivor, I get mad at myself when I get hit with Eruption 2+ times in a match. I personally prefer to think I'm the idiot when it happens. Not the killer, or the game tools.
The solution is to understand the problem. The solution is to test some new solutions. The solution is not to listen to people crying on the forum. If its about survivors not having fun, maybe give them a new perk that says "...While incapacitated, you run 10% faster...". If its about Eruption not doing its intended job, maybe add a scourge hook perk that "... When hooking a survivor, all generators are locked for 20 seconds." And test that stuff.
I agree that it can feel bad to get hit and that looking for counterplay is nice, but the counterplay isn't there. Counterplay is something you can reliably do to mitigate the effectiveness of something but without additional information, there is no reliable way to know when the teammate will go down meaning that dodging it and getting value from trying to dodge it is largely random. If you let go all the time then you can let go for too long but beyond that, it's a complete gamble as to when to let go meaning it's not even reliable at mitigating value or being worth your time. Using comms or bringing the right perk isn't counterplay because knowing the killer will have eruption isn't reliable and is basically luck too.
Other strong perks have limited value like deadlock and corrupt and as such are predictable and reliable rather than giving a lot of value or have counterplay to make up for getting good value. Pain res + dms showing you the hook happening before the effects happen, call of brine not giving info when you hit great skill checks, hexes can be cleansed or discordance having an obvious trigger to play around. You may not know if the killer has perks like call of brine of discordance but if you are able to figure these things out you can play around them, to play around eruption you need to not play the game otherwise you may get hit and not be able to play the game, to mitigate the perk you need to do the exact thing that would happen if you weren't to play around it.
Powerful effects like eruption should have counterplay to mitigate value, counterplay should be reliable and available without having to know if the perk is in the next match before joining it. Rushing the killer when incapacitated doesn't matter in this context because most times they're hooking a teammate, also throwing the game shouldn't be the solution to being forced to not play it. A perk that makes incapacitated survivors faster wouldn't fix either of these issues and encourages the killer even to not interact with the survivors not playing the game.
The idea of blocking instead of incapacitated sounds good in my opinion because it allows survivors to do side objectives and play the game, the exact numbers of this are less relevant than the effect but it's a good idea. A scourge hook that blocks gens could be fun but all gens might get a bit tedious even if it's a short duration and being a slowdown perk with the same trigger as pain res sounds a bit redundant. Perhaps having the effect last if someone is left on the hook for too long or happens on uhook?
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@StarLost said:
Okay.
Let's go point by point.
- This game cannot be balanced around solo players. In an SWF, it's not hard to say 'let go'. The reason this game has to be balanced around SWF is because survivors can choose to play solo or in a team, and killers have no choice - your next game could be against a 4man.
- No, saying that killers need muscular regression perks because of how fast gens can potentially move now is a perfectly valid statement. Because it's true. If the incap is really the complaint here, then - as a lot of folks have suggested - just make it a gen block. But you and I both know that this won't even slow the QQ train down. Also - you do realize that, to get Eruption off, the killer actually needs to chase and down someone, right? I'd say that most folks care less about 'fun' than about 'winning'. Because, for most folks, winning is fun.
- 'Fun' is subjective. See above. It's all good and well to say 'well, killers should play in x way because that's more fun to me' - but A. that ignores what is fun for the killer and B. is not the reality on the ground. Balance does not occur in a vacuum.
- Irrelevant. Moving on.
- Anyone using Overcharge is playing the game wrong. This perk sucks, no matter how you slice it - and is only really useful in skillcheck builds. It takes 12 seconds to reach regular regression rates.
- Lazy strawman. Moving on.
- The issue isn't design here, really. It's pure psychology. You can follow the complaint train (comtrain?) about literally whatever the killer meta is at any point in time, right from the start. For the longest time it was Ruin. Then Ruin+Undying. Then still Ruin+Undying, after it got nerfed. Then it was PR+DMS. Then 6.1.0 happened and it was Overcharge. Then Thana. Then STBFL. Then PR+DMS again. Now it's Eruption. In most of these cases, the complaining led to these perks being nerfed into near uselessness. There are 4 survivors to every killer per match, meaning four more people to get salty and blame the killer/playstyle/perks/teammates for their loss rather than saying 'well, I made mistakes'.
Eruption will probably get Thana'd before too long. Then we'll be back to complaining about PR+DMS or STBFL until that gets gutted. And on and on we go.
Eruption...not sure what you mean by 'numbers'. It's strong if you get hit by it, but you can take steps to avoid this. You can't just talk about one thing in this game, because balance doesn't work like that. It's all well and good to say 'well, killers being crap doesn't bother me if I'm having fun' - but that's incredibly selfish.
The reason you see Eruption, CoB and/or PR so much is because...what else are killers going to run? Ruin and Thana aren't worth using anymore. Surge and Penti are unreliable. Overcharge and Oppression are terrible. Info perks get redundant and there aren't many universally good lethality perks. Because of how fast gens can potentially move - killers need to go in prepared for it.
The solution is to take some agency and find an SWF - which is super easy to do, by the way, they're always popping on the DbD Discord. Or run an aura reading perk and use some gamesense to try and let go in time.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323024#Comment_3323024
As others have suggested - make it a 40 second gen block, to compensate for the lost regression.
Do you think that will end the moaning? (Spoiler: not a chance).
It's not the incap. It's that this perk requires survivors to be a bit proactive, apply a bit of gamesense and let go for a few seconds.
The idea that some of these "common counter-arguments" are strawman arguments is fair but that's kinda the point. They're not there to shut down all further discussion but some weaker arguments that I felt were surrounding this discussion but I respect the fact that you are willing the debate that these are weak.
Maybe starting with balance points was a bad idea because my main point was the psychology/feeling of playing against. As stated in my other comments a 25-second stun isn't fun for anyone playing against it due to not being able to do anything for so long and receiving it for doing the thing the game tells you to do. If people didn't want to play the game they wouldn't have loaded it up so why would anyone enjoy not being able to play or 25 seconds? Furthermore interacting with the environment (such as kicking gens) is nice as it leads to interesting decisions making with the risk of lowering player interaction, however when you have enough perks to make that decision irrelevant and default overwhelming to yes you remove the fun part while having matches where the killer would rather interact with the environment than survivors. If survivors wanted to not interact with other players they wouldn't have loaded a PVP game.
I agree that having it block gens instead of incap would be a good idea as the survivor could still do secondary objectives such as healing or chests then and feel like they have more agency in what they do in those 25 seconds instead of sitting around.
As for balance, 10% as contingency is still good and forcing the survivor to constantly get off the gen is even more on top. I will agree that against very coordinated survivors on full coms playing as hard as they can to win it's often 10% but that is a very small minority compared to most players where the perk consistently gets too much value as it will hit people on gens at least somewhat regularly.
Finally, it's not fair to say that people need to be playing on discord to enjoy this game. If I wanted to play a game while on voice chat with strangers, I would have played a game that advertises that.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3322857#Comment_3322857
The problem isn't simply that it's an unfun perk, it's that the perk removes a player from normal gameplay. It's essentially a stun, or most games call it a 'silence' effect, where you can't do much more than move around with your character.
Most perks/effects in the game that remove a player from gameplay have either a warning/telegraph, or a form of counterplay. Sometimes both.
The biggest form of counterplay is interaction with the opposing team. So, being removed from play by being hooked or slugged, for example, has counterplay of looping and directly interacting with the killer. You can use mind games, players make mistakes, etc.
There are exactly two perks in the game that remove a player from normal gameplay, have no warning or telegraph, and do not involve direct interaction with another player. These perks are Blast Mine and Eruption.
Blast Mine must be earned, can only apply to one generator at a time, and expires after 60 seconds regardless of if it triggered. It's also generally considered one of the 'fairer' perks in the game because it has all of these restrictions.
Eruption, on the other hand, has no activation requirement (like pop with hooking a survivor), can be applied to any number of gens at the same time, and never expires. Even the cooldown isn't limiting because it's barely longer than the stun at 30 seconds, and triggers on down, not on kick. The perk is effectively always available to use.
Eruption needs a restriction to when it can be used at minimum, or reworked entirely. Maybe both.
I'd say the difference is much simpler. Defending gens is ultimately a secondary objective that you don't have to do and if you do get punished by blast mine you suffer a 5-second stun. Survivors' primary object is generators and if you get punished by eruption, for doing the thing you have to do, you suffer from a 25-second stun. Obviously killer perks need to be stronger, but this isn't about balance games shouldn't have 25-second stuns because people want to play the game.
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@WesCravenFan said:
If "unfun to play against" is being considered a serious argument I have a large Santa Clause style scroll of things I wanted removed from the game....
I would like to point out that although it may seem like an emotional appeal I did provide reasons as to why I think it's unfun and works against why people would load into a PVP game, namely that it encourages players to interact with the environment more than it does other players leading to less player vs player engagement despite making matches take longer.
@StupidBanana said:
Hyperfocus + toolbox worst than eruption.
Killer not has a chance to win.
https://s3.gifyu.com/images/Hyperfocus.gif
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT8p_I3zxbh43RotdnEHpH5D8CD7rC0E_7bMg&usqp=CAU
As stated before, never said otherwise. I chose I talk about eruption because I think it's a more interesting issue to talk about than "the objective is done too fast" or "numbers too big".
@Blinckx said:
I'm a killer main and i hate to run Eruption but i am forced to run Eruption. I'd really would love to try out different builds and perks but guess what ? I like to win ( what a crime ) and if i want to win, i have to use those perks that have the strong impact in the game, basically slowdown/regression perk and i truly hate them because there is no fun to kick a gen over and over and over
Eruption is not the problem, the problem is the status of the game. Even If eruption is removed from the game, killers will run CoB, OC and other regression perks and tunnel/camp even more in a minute and nothing will change as long the game don't change
As a community we should ask to change those aspect of the game that ruin the players experiences for both killer and survivor, not just "nerf this and this" but provide a better gameplay
I disagree with the sentiment that killers have to play like this to win, but if you're talking about your own experience then I can't argue otherwise. Personally, I find I can win regularly with killer without resorting to such ideas but as stated if you need to or want to play like this to win I have no intent on shaming you for it you're using the tools at your disposal. Again I do think there are none eruption issues in the game and I did mention that overcharge and call of brine probably also need cooldowns to prevent them from being used like they're currently. On a personal level tunnelling, camping and these gen-kicking builds all encourage you to not interact with most survivors on the team which is what I think is the most unfun part about these strategies; I singled out eruption in particular because I believe it has issues beyond being used in a gen kicking build. I would argue even in a game where everything else is more balanced/fair and people don't have to use the best options eruption still wouldn't be unhealthy for the game.