Riski
Riski
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I'll start but agreeing that "M1 killers" shouldn't be viewed as weak for being M1 killers. I generally believe "M1 killers" should refer to killer who have to, in some sense, play loops normally. Killers like Wraith, Legion and Clown have to play loops normally in the sense they have to respect distance, vaults, walls and Pallets. Even killers like trapper or pig who have M2 damage respect these aspects of the game.
Killers which aren't M1 killers are stuff like Spirit and Blight (who don't really respect distance), Pyramid head and Nurse (who don't respect walls) or Hunteress and Deathslinger (who can disrespect vaults and windows). This is still a somewhat murky definition as "respects" and "normally" as somewhat wishy washy terms but is a good frame of reference as a whole if you want to refer to killers who have to respect and perhaps struggle a bit more with loops.
Are M1 killers weak? Kinda? Naturally a definition which stems from a lack of a strength will result in weaker killers but the idea that a killer is weak because they're a "M1 killer" is reductive and unhelpful. Pinhead and Wraith are M1 killers who are pretty good and strong killers like Plague and Oni do have to play like M1 killers for significant parts of a match. Other killers like Vecna also emulate these elements when his power is off cool-down. Killers shouldn't be reduced to M1 killer, categorisation is useful for generalisation not specifics, but to dismiss the concept is equally not as useful.
Edit: had a typo
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@CrypticGirl said:
The other day I went against a Legion with Thana, Nurse's, Sloppy, (idk their fourth perk), and that pin add-on that makes you broken when you self-mend. I think that might be a more common Legion build, but for this match, even before the go-next prevention, I had never seen an entire team give up so fast.
sloppy is not a good perk on legion as a heads up. People are already not inclined to heal and you only tend to M1 for downs rather than injures so it only really affects people coming off hooks, at which point leverage or gift of pain are better. If you want to stop people from healing as legion as you mentioned broken addon is very good for that but just being legion is often incentive enough unless you have thana as you suggested.
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While not a full build I like discordance + play with your food. You only need one stack at a time to help get downs so if you run into the obsession you can use your power to put them into deep wound and find someone else already injured to get an easy down. Alternatively if everyone is already injured farming a few stacks and using discordance to find people is a very good idea.
This is usually best paired with addons which help find people or chain long range hits together (PWYF helps with that) such as duration or detection range and as for other perks I'd often use options like surge, ruin or thanna for slowdown. You could also use blood echo + broken addon to really make it hard to beat once you get people injured.
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on top of Ghoul's design being a lot and, in my opinion, the actual mechanics of it not being entire intuitive (namely duration of chain dashes and the animation cool-down for them not being clear) I think it doesn't help that Ghoul is the "sweat" killer of choice. Strong addons, easy to learn power and a somewhat high skill floor to play against makes him incredibly efficient in general play especially when considering how strong he is beyond these facts. If you want to win just chuck on any 4 slowdown perks you wish as that's all he needs, no need for info or chase, and whatever strong addons you like and as long as you pay some attention to not over commuting and hook states it's a pretty easy win everything said and done.
This isn't unique. Was blight for a while, forever Freddy, weirdly enough wraith for a period of time after healing nerf back in thana meta. Killers who aren't that hard to play well but punishing to play against with strong addons and favourable synergy with current meta perks. Ghoul isn't that great anyway, but this doesn't help.
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3966854#Comment_3966854
For me it depends on the Killer. I use two max on Killers that are low mobility and one max on those with high mobility. If I use two it's usually something strong that I can boost with something else - Surge and Pain Res, Grim and Thrilling, etc. - or block AND pop, something like Surge and Thrilling. If I use one, I favor gen block over pop or regression; my favorite one is actually just plain ol' Thrilling Tremors because it pulls double duty as info and some light gen block. I diversify the other two or three slots. Experience does the rest, because you can't replace that with a perk.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3966850#Comment_3966850
How is Lethal Pursuer slowdown? How about Coup de Grace, you know, the perk that actively is about letting gens get done for a longer lunge? There's a lot of perks that 100% are NOT "slowdown in some way" because they aren't a form of slowdown in any way.
It's an abstract way of thinking. Having a survivor on hook or on the floor is slowdown as someone needs to stop working a gen to help them. Similarly chasing a survivor is slowdown because they're not on a gen. So info perks which increases the proportional time in chase and chase perks which increase the proportional time someone is down or on hook are, in an abstract sense, slowdown. This is more so a way of thinking which is suppose to combat the idea of "without X slowdown perks how to I stop the survivors doing gens too quickly?" with the answer being info and chase also, in an abstract sense, provide their own down form of slowdown.
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I've said this before but complaining "3 gens pop before I've done my first chase on weaker killers" and then following it with "so I have to run pain res + dms etc and if they nerf these perks it'll hurt lower tier killers" shows 0 understanding of perk builds and killer needs. If you're not downing survivors quickly these perks get worse and instead perks which either buy time without hooks (deadlock, corrupt, ruin) or help you get downs thorugh info (discordance, lethal) or chase (Bamboozle, brutal) are a better solution for your problem. Unironically see people play wraith with 0 chase, passive slowdown, anti-heal or info and then complain when they're 4 hookbased slowdown build does nothing when they fail to get a down early. Even a build with a single non-hook based perk (such as my wraith build with discordance, surge, leverage and gift of pain) does infinately better on 80% of killers than your average dms, pain res, grim embrace and surge/gift of pain.
In this regard even on some high tier killers who aren't the top like Oni or Plague this remains ture as they need more time before downs rather than afterwards. 4 slowdown is bad if it's the wrong slowdown and just running 4 slowdown because "it's the meta" and "I need the best to make up for being low tier" shows you don't know nor really care about what your perks do for you, your play style, or your killer. To slightly generalise I find this kind of philopshy lazy, people who want to optimise their chances of winning without putting in serious thought into why what they bring makes them win and what can make a perk good. That if a perk isn't top 6 it's bad and not worth it and if a killer isn't top 3 then they need to rely on the top 6 exclusively.
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@Legion_S_Tier said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3965875#Comment_3965875
I disagree with the numbers suggested, this would basically make pain res only be effective when paired with DMS. However I do agree that it is annoying when the scream forces you off and I do remember a time when you could react to the hooking aura to avoid screaming which I think was better. Could you explain what you mean in your second paragraph? As in the interaction between DMS and Grim Embrace.
When Grim Embrace triggers for the block after moving away from the hook I believe that triggers DMS, so what should be a relatively short block is actually blocking the gen for the remainder of the the time of DMS (which on faster killers like blight or ghoul is basically 50 seconds if they wish).
This makes the counter play for Grim + Pain Res + DMS when a survivor is downed 1) let of go the Gen when they're picked up if you think you're at risk of pain res based of hook states and gen progress 2) once hooked, if it's that survivor is on first hook, let go until grim embrace triggers which could be near immediately or if the killer takes time to break pallets, gens and/or check lockers up to about 10-20 seconds and 3) after grim triggers wait out that timer, afterwards you gen will unblock and you can work on it again!
If you don't do any of this don't worry, you just risk your gen being blocked for 50 seconds wasting time either way! During this time the killer is free to pressure other survivors and tunnel off the hook freely giving them an easy and relatively free 2 hook states for minimal pressure loss. You can go off and do other things but the amount of pressure the killer gains for hooking a single survivor at the start of the game is insane especially if they manage to do so before any gens are done potentially mitigating and potential tempo gained from the survivors.I do ultimately see the interaction between Grim + DMS as more problematic as it affects all gens being worked on and doesn't have scourge rng but I think reverting the shadow buff to pain res + dms alongside this interaction would overall be healthy. You could argue there is counter-play by using coms to dodge dms triggers easier and waiting out the unhook until dms triggers again so survivors can work on gens while the killer tunnels off hook but this requires good coms, teamwork and an assumption the killer is going to tunnel and isn't using an info perk on the 4th slot to play around stealth tactics.
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If pain res is a problem it's a numbers solution at this point, mostly. The fundamental perk is fine but giving killers a consistent 45-60% + regression for basically nothing is a bit much. Even changing this to 12.5% would be a nice adjustment. I think the only fundamental aspect of this perk that should be changed is it's interaction with DMS, you use to be able to let go in response to the red aura of the survivor showing up before the hook to avoid this but you can't any more either meaning you waste 5-10 seconds after pick up waiting for the hook or risk an unavoidable 50s gen block which to put it frankly, is lame. We had this with eruption where waiting for undisclosed amounts of time to avoid interaction blocking isn't fun and it shouldn't remain in the game.
If you want to nerf hard tunnelling slow down killers than Grim + DMS giving a free 50 seconds of blocks is what you address as the main counter to tunnelling (or any strategy which only presumes one survivor) is focusing gens which this stops. Honesty just make it so DMS doesn't work with Grim in the way it does, simpler change. -
It's not half, it's 12 to 8 and that's a third. Even calling 13 to 8 "nearly half" is a bit generous everything said and done. Nitpicking aside, I think given the streetwise change (no longer affecting the item you came in with) the overall max gen rush builds have been nerfed and this change is deserved. This change saves at most 12 seconds of hiding in lockers throughout the match but because of the streetwise nerf you're ultimately getting less bang for your buck with that time spent.
A less dedicated gen rush build with a good tool box + built to last is better than before because of this change but ultimately I don't see it being much better if any better than bringing Prove thy self instead or just a 4th perk which provides more utility like anti-tunnel or healing. I do think if streetwise got changed and this didn't BTL would fall off the face of the earth, it's just not worth spending 12 seconds in a locker doing nothing and a perk slot to recharge a single item. At 8 seconds even using this to recharge maps, keys or flashlights to help with chases isn't a terrible idea now which gives it utility elsewhere.
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- Overcharge and call of brine: No. Ok maybe they could do with a small buff but you don't want these perks meta. Metas involving these perks only form if these perks provide enough regression to make them worth using other iniating a chase earlier and as there are no conditions on these perks that means you can do it on and on and on and on… Sad because I liked call of brine on release but unconditional and repeatable slowdown is a bad idea.
- Oppresion: Cooldown shouldn't be reduced with a regression buff, see above. As for the 5% base, if it's only for the gen kicked, maybe? It seems way to free for regression on a perk which has more of its value placed in infomation currently and an oppression buff should focus on this detail but buffing its regression isn't the worse idea if it's done carefully.
- Surge: This perk is already good, why?
- Crowd control: I don't like bloating perks with new effects but I guess fine.
Also why any buffs? For these buffs to mean anything they'd need to be better than DMS + Grim + Pain Res which is already pretty oppresive against less coordinated teams even ignoring the potental for a 4th perks (which often times is surge). I don't see any up coming changes from the ptb which should make a significant difference to gens? Anti-slug/tunnel features aren't going to be base just yet (just trailed) and the new item changes affect chase time more than gen time and if anything encourage people to use less toolboxes and generally nerfs options like streetwise, built to last, hyper focus toolbox builds. There are aspects of balancing which aren't gens and making gens wouldn't fix issues which the new items cause. New items are chase focued so if they're too good wouldn't you want to focus on chase balancing rather than gen?
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@tjt85 said:
I don't see it either. Just the usual mix of the top 20 meta perks plus whatever else Survivors like to run sprinkled in.
I did see We'll Make It in a fair number of my recent games, but that hasn't had any buffs recently and is a good perk available to new players, so not really a huge surprise to see it often.
This is how I feel feel. I see more healing perks being ran outside of dedicated healing builds but I don't really see healing builds or have it feel like a meta, more so healing perks are viable alongside what was meta. I find the most "average" build is something along the lines of an exhaustion perk, healing perk, second chance perk and than either a second second chance perk, chase perk or info perk which hardly feels like a healing meta but just healing perks existing. I find myself seeing more DH and DSs than botanies and resurgances so would I be more fair in saying it's an anti-tunnel meta? Hell in my last 20 games I'll probably seen more MTFs than botanies.
Medkits seem common still but that's not a healing meta that's medkits. Medkits provide both utility, safty and timesave while other items only provide one of thse usually which has been the case forever.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3726603#Comment_3726603
I would disagree... Using language you can pinpoint any location any map just as precise as with a ping... It may take some time to describe, but that's completely fine considering the player you are describing it to is not around the corner anyway but will probably need some time to go in that direction anyway. You can be way more precise by going further than just clock callouts.
It's about speed and ease more than anything. If I say the killer is coming and my friend says "where" I then need to explain where and they then need to look around and figure it out (normally by this point they would of seen the killer themselves but it could be a stealth killer). If I could ping the location we wouldn't need all that hassel and even if that saves only a couple of seconds that could make a significant difference. I would argue it's a minor buff to people on swf but not insignificant.
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@DerpedByDave said:
We have been asking for 1 & 2 for years it looks like the devs are actually starting to listin with these newer updates hopefully will get something like this soon.
An we have a system to ping places it's called the glass bead map add-on ;)
I would take base kit glass bead I love that #########
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If the last survivor is in sight or know location otherwise, fair game. It may actually take the killer less time for themselves to just go after and down the 4th than it would to find hatch, close it and then to the little tango with the exit gates. Slugging for the 4K when they have no idea where the survivors are, kinda rude. I get you want your 4K but the other survivor shouldn't have to wait up to 4 minuets doing nothing for this to happen however this is an issue with the game first and foremost. The game should give the survivor in this situation some way to give up and move on or the "optimal" play for the killer shouldn't have to involve forcing a survivor into 4 minuets of inaction in a match they've already lost (optimal in this context being optimising rewards/gains from an individual match).
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Cheating in the sense that you'll be banned or it's against the rules, no. It's undetectible so BHVR couldn't enforce it if they thought it was cheating and it's not a modification of the game or the game files. BHVR describes hacking (what this would be closest to) as "Using 3rd party software or other tools to gain any kind of unfair advantage that wasn’t intended by the game, except if they have been whitelisted by us" however the filter in your headset would be hardware not software so there is a good case BHVR doesn't consider this hacking and there is nothing else in the rules that would mean it's cheating.
Is it cheating in the sense that it is an advantage other players have, yes but no? Having a good headset, or other good hardware, is an advantage reguardless of if it comes with filters or not so where to draw the line with external factors such as video/sound filter and good hardware is completely arbitary. Is it ok? Up to you. If you personally feel like it's cheap or unfair to use it then don't, and you wouldn't be alone in thinking that, but there are no rules saying you can't use it.
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Ultimately for it to be cheating it would be bannable, and thus would need to be enforcible. How can the devs enforce people altering the audio output? Even if they scanned for 3rd party software I can use a physical devise to adjust the audio to my pleasing before passing to my headphones. Ultimately nothing is the game is affected directly when using equalisers, nothing has been tampered with. It's not cheating because if they devs say it's cheating and don't enfoce it (because they can't), they'd look like a joke.
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@mizark3 said:
Nerf: Any/All of the top 5, but lets just use Nurse as a placeholder.
Buff: Any/All of the bottom 5, but lets just use Myers as a placeholder. A couple Myers buffs could be starting the match in T2 (with an add-on to start in T1), T1 being buffed to 110 from 105 and/or middle lunge between current T1 and normal M1 Killers, or both of the previous ideas.
Rework: Plague - She currently deletes Altruism. Killer mechanics should add to the base, not subtract. Re-enable Altruism, even if you have to take the infection for others or always take double time. Also to help prevent boring gen defense playstyles, allow for pre-cleansing while uninfected (that still unlocks the red pool for Plague) to gain a limited item that can cleanse/cure everything and everyone within 4-8m when used (takes 4-8s adjusted by altruistic heal speeds), and prevents object (not person) re-infection for 30s.
Although I wouldn't mind a plague adjustment this is sounding a bit like singularity, even ignoring infection you also run into the issue where altruism isn't possible with corrupt purge either due to its very short cooldown, range and piercing properties. I personally like plague and I don't entirely disagree with your opinion but I'm not sold on the end product here.
I like your Myer's changes as a start but more would be needed, make tire 1 less of a hiderence and tier 3 more rewarding is mystance and making tier 1 start in 110% with normal lunge sounds like a good idea.
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@Huge_Bush said:
Buff:
Nemesis- Zombies are now equipped a Rocket Launcher that can obliterate map structures and put survivors in the dying state. Also, Zombies get a new cosmetic feature and can now be zombified survivors.
Trapper- Either he starts with all of his traps and has faster trap setting speed or he gets one of his Iridescent add-ons as base-kit.
SM Myers - He gets faster movement speed and game will also select a random indoor map.
Rework:
Tombstone Myers- Tombstone becomes basekit but only allows Myers to kill the Survivor when they are on Death Hook. Tombstone piece is replaced with a new add-on that allows Myers to do something new that I can think of.
Nerf:Pig. Pigs can’t have nice things.
I'll agree on the nemesis change on one condition, the zombies are too dumb to use them properly. Instead of aiming and shooting if the zombies evers attack or get stunned the rockets in their arms will explode killing them, the survivors nearby and permanently breaking the gens. To balance this we'll nerf the zombie speed addons /s.
Jokes aside the idea of having the zombies spawn in as zombie survivors is very cool and now I want it a lot.
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@Seraphor said:
Buff: Ghostface and Myers
Nerf: Wesker and Huntress
Rework: Skull Merchant and Singularity
Both Ghostface and Myers need to be penalised less in their stealth. Pig just got a increase to crouched movement speed, GF needs the same and Myers shouldn't be slower in tier 1, he already has no lunge. Myers also needs a way to regain stalk on 'depleted' survivors somehow so that he doesn't effectively run out of power.
Wesker and Huntress are the killers I personally find to be problematic to face. The ones that can be on top of you quicker than they have any right to be, and can effectively camp/proxy from a much greater distance than many others. I'm not sure what they need to be nerfed, but my initial thoughts are something to reduce their effective distance a little. A small reduction to Weskers base dash distance maybe. Huntress is tricky because she's kinda built around sniping, and to take that away entirely wouldn't be right. I would maybe like to see something like: hatchets thrown from greater than 32 meters can't down, only inflict deep wound, except for Iri head which reverses it a little; hatchets thrown from greater than 12 meters can instadown, but not if less than 12 meters.
Skull Merchant and Singularity need to swap some aspects of their powers. Why tf does SM have camera drones that injure people, while the rogue AI that wants to assimilate humans merely 'watches you'?
I feel like ghostface isn't that weak, or at least if he is improving his mobility while crounched wouldn't make a significant improvement. Those Myer suggestions are nice however.
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In lore explaination? Same reason everything else is "wrong" in the entities realm. The entity goes "ok I look through your memory Sable and found a cinema, a park and a lot of money wasted on pinball machines. I've combined all of these to recreate what I believe your home town is". Unless a character has a specific memory of a hill or elavation maybe the entity just assumes they don't exist, or chucks one of those smaller hills or dips down.
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I feel like the main reason we don't see that is not because of fessibility but because it's hard enough to find someone who would commit the time to getting 1900+ wins in a row, never mind 4 who are consistently free enough to play at the same rate.
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Survivor perk 1 and killer perk 3 are good ideas, biggest issue is the killer does not currently have a proper special activation button but that's something that could be worked around. With survivor, more perks to do things with side objectives are neat and this has a significant bonus, only issue is the pallet animation may look too goofy.
Survivor perk 3 and killer perk 1 are way too situational, if a perk is to help with tunneling/losing it should at least be consistent at doing so like DS or deadlock. Further more Survivor perk 3 just feels like Decivise Strike with extra steps and using it on your teamates is just like using for the people to give them another health state a lot of the time. As for killer a simplier idea of "chase bonus after gen is done" is a cleaner idea which doesn't run into the issue of doing absolutely nothing if you're even doing half well.
Survivor perk 2. The idea of a boon that works as a booby trap is neat but these has a few issues. Firstly the wording is confusing and has massive implications, 36m of the killer would probably be too strong as it makes it too hard to hook anyone but 36m of the boon kinda does nothing unless you're next to the boon when you down. If I'm using a different boon and that gets snuffed because my solo Q teamate set this up and it proceeded to do nothing after triggering I'm never touching a boon again I swear to god, I understand this is a spam safty net but survivors should never feel this punished for their teamate's perks. A better idea would just be the closest hook gets broken for 30 seconds (28 seconds feels like a weird duration unless you have a reason) when a survivor in range is downed and we skip the whole song a dance with it deactivating, simplier can be better.
Killer perk 2 would be way too much in terms of balance implications, I understand you're trying to push the boundries of what is allowed but this is probably too much. On some maps you'll have no where to place it while on other maps you ignore map size which is a balancing tool despite some large maps being too good for survivor. Being able to take a large map with weak loops and take the one thing benefital to survivors and go "nuh uh" for just a single perk slot is probably too much. The existance of this perk also makes many killers feel redundant, what's the point of having a teleport in my power when I could have this for just a single perk.
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The weakened status effect is removed by looking at the killer and shots can be bounced around doors or angled to burst near a wall an hit the other side. I'm not sure indoor maps are ideal for him but they make removing weakened hard and allow for some cool shots which sounds alright.
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@Phasmamain said:
I like him a lot so far. My only worry is with aura reading and indoor maps like Lery's he might become overbearing with the splash going through walls and being unable to cleanse weakness as easily
Although I can see the concern I don't think it's a massive issue. The blast radius from the attack is relatively small so most the time you can space yourself away from the wall to avoid a hit. This gives up distance of course but I feel like that's apart of the risk that comes with playing against this style of killer.
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As a killer who uses devour hope, it's a super silly perk. A perk shouldn't solo a game because a totem happened to spawn in the right spot and as much as people like moris or the tense situations it creates losing to this perk more than once in a short period goes from unique and fun to frustating very quickly. The perk isn't an issue in small quanities but if this perk had a higher playrate then you'd go from match to match where the outcome is entirely dependent on if a single hex is found, you could argue this for any hex but most of them can be powered through if needed (although that is unideal) while powering through devour gets the killer 5 stacks which is almost unwinable. Perks fine atm but if you have truely been blessed with the power of prophecy and it's the next hot thing then maybe it can be an issue.
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I personally like Freddy but he is kinda weak. Too few traps to utilise on their utility such as snaring doorways for infomation as they get overridden and the addons are almost all gimicks with many redunent ones (We don't need 3 addons that do the same thing especially when many of them are already weak). I do like how you can now place snares through walls now as it makes his chase much more interesting now.
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Two reasons really. Firstly maps are specifically desgined to help survivors and killer sided maps are ones that do a worse job at that. Most aspects of a map such as loops, walls and size are factors that benefit survivors so a large psychological factor plays into this. More imporantly while the factors that hurt killers are pretty consistent (size and loop strength being the main two), factors that help killers are different. Some killers like wide open maps where ranged attacks and mobility are unrestricted while other killers like a lot of walls and line of ight blockage to be stealthy. Some killers like multiple floors such as Nurse, Skull Merchant or Freddy because they are hindered less by them while survivors will find it more difficult to traverse because of it while other killers like Hillbilly or Legion are hindered by this because it makes traversal harder for them. Even smaller maps tend to have a higher density of loops which some weaker chase killers like Pig can struggle with. Even minor things like footstep sounds heavily affect what maps Spirit likes with her best maps debatabally being swamp with how easy it's to hear survivors.
That isn't to say killer sided maps don't exist but more so that they're more factors that go into a killer sided map (many of which depend on the killer) and as a killer they feel less strong because a lot of the map is still designed to help survivors (even if they do a worse job at this). I will say some of these killer sided maps need looking at (Dead Dawg an Midwhich personally) but even these maps could be considered balanced for some killers (but not most) which is why they stick out less than survivor sided maps which are bad for all killers generally.
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I'm of the belief that if something like that is being said show it. Even a one of sentence in someone's lore such as "his husband" or "her date wasn't happy and she left" is much, much better than just saying "oh yea they're gay" on twitter and nothing else. I understand that's not how it works in real life, people are still themselves even if they don't outwardly show it, however the second option is such a cop out where they can easily turn around and say "lol jk" if they wish and almost feel non-cannon anyway if it's not actually in any official media.
As for if they should do it, I see no harm. If they feel like making a character cannon they should and in the case of a character like David I feel like it added to the lore with the idea of his parent's expectations and working in a field where that wouldn't of been as acepted (Rugby). I'd personally like more repersentation but like I stated earlier I would rather some effort be put in beyond a twitter post.
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Pig buff (improved stealth and ambush), blight nerf (addon nerf and slight base kit nerf) and executioner rework (nerf base kit but improve addons).
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I'm going to be real pharmacy lost on the "buff" they gave it. Used to be an avid pharmacy farmer but needing to be injured meant that you couldn't get the chest when convient, as when injured it's usually better to get a teammate to heal you, on top of healing nerfs and all medkit rarities being basically the same for self healing (their best use) it's a hollow shell of its former self.
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The deathslinger one almost has a use. It makes the chain break faster which can be useful when combined with bayshore cigar (similar reasoning to jewled beatle, makes the follow up on the first hit better but worse against people already injured). The issue is it only increases break speed when the survivor is struggling and the survivor won't struggle if they know you want to break the chain, namely if there isn't colision to break it on and the survivor doesn't struggle you have to go for the m1 as it would take to long otherwise which is where an addon like this could help but it doesn't.
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Considering what beens said I think I just had an unlucky stroke of several farming killers in a row. So take what I've said with a grain of salt.
@Jeromy137 said:
Farming killers have been in the games since conception not really anything you can do besides just finishing gens and leaving as soon as you can if you don't want a farm match
Also sometimes it can be nice to have a game where you don't have to go all out and enjoy a casual time with in-between matches
I can understand that but I guess I don't play for long enough at a time to feel like that.
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Although I do agree with these counter arguements I think the core concept of the perk (haste while injured) isn't broken although does have the issue of strong against weak killers. Ultimately the amount of chase needed for this to be better distance than sprintburst/lithe is 50 seconds which considering you're injured is quite an ask against a lot of killers. On top of the killers mentioned it's a bit limited against chase focused killers such as nemesis or deathslinger for this reason. The aspect of "out in the open" is better worded as "caught of guard" namely against stealth killers. Against stealth killers even lithe is better than MFT against many stealth options as vaulting a nearby window will gain you a lot of distance where as with MFT it can still be quite unsafe. This isn't to say the perk is bad here but against the top tiers, chase focused, stealth killers and instadowns you'd much rather another option. Now this does mostly make it good against lower tier killers which isn't an ideal which we agree with.
I would argue the biggest issue is the point mentioned about exhaustion, using this then getting value from DH or balanced landing is too much imo. Changing it to actually give exhaustion or a slight nerf (2% or a time limit) could be in order but the principle isn't over powered.
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Although I understand the idea of these being poular killers they're other factors that make them popular. Huntress is a killer everyone starts with and has a range attack which makes many new players gravitate towards her. Blight is one of the strongest killers in the game with a pretty straight forward and easy to pick up gameplan making him popular amongst people who want to win. Finally Wesker is a liecenced killer from an iconic gaming franchise with voice lines and a borderline comical power of throwing people. That is to say there is a lot more that makes these killers popular than what you said. To say many people find these killers fun to play against is not fair. People complain about huntress' hitboxes and camping potential quite a bit, base blight is full of techs and bugs that can make him feel unfair or cheesy to play against and many people feel over exposed to Wesker and infection is a mechanic that not only makes tunneling easier but makes you feel punished for doing well in a chase (as you then come off the hook with more infection making you easier to tunnel).
Finally, what's most healthy for the game is diversity. I tend to enjoy killers with powers that aren't straight forwards to use and that focus more on the 4v1 than the 1v1 such as Dredge, Plague and Ghostface. This next part depend on what you mean by "more" but if we were to only see killers like that in the future I would feel worse about the game and they're killers I care less about. Even if I enjoyed playing against huntress if I played against huntress every match I would get sick of it very quickly and it's most important that different playstyles are catered to. I will agree that we've not seen many of these "straight forwards" killers as much recently and I would not complain if the next one was but reguardless of what's "fun" too much of it and repetition would quickly make people sick of the game.
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3457311#Comment_3457311
Made for this is great against 50/50 killers like executioner and nemesis. With 50/50 i mean you can either drop the pallet or run another round, and you need to guess correctly if the killer uses his power or runs through the pallet.
You also reach pallets faster and can predrop more safely, which helps aginst them.
Made for this is like you said weak against an ambush from stealth killers (but bl and lithe are also weak against that) and insta downs. Also against speed killer like spirit.
Fair but I will also say that a good nemesis shouldn't be relying on 50/50s he has one of the best chase powers in the game for hitting survivors and for executioner I found didn't make much difference but maybe the survivors weren't using the bonus right. As a nemesis I'd much rather mft than sprint burst as I can still infect survivors and gain mutation as normal without wasting time.
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People on hooks/ground revealing you as ghostface, I understand the balance and flavour side of things but gameplay wise it can feel like you're being punished for having someone on hook and make using your power hard after a hook.
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Machine learning has the issue of being a contradiction. To activate it you need to kick a gen, then you need to kick another gen and then you need the last gen you kicked to be completed. In other words you want to go around kicking gens but without actually defending them and the perks that benefit you going around and kicking gens are gen defense perks, leaving it with awkward perk synergy. I agree that once activated it's very powerful and could be toned down a bit however to justify that you should change the activation condition, if it worked like you said it does where you just have to kick one gen then yes I'd agree it would need to be toned down (5% haste maybe or a buff similar to overclock's action speed bonus instead).
Made for this is ultimately a win more perk. Against a killer who is beating you in chase such as a nurse, executioner or nemesis it does very little, against an instadown killer it does very little unless you never want to heal which is a large risk even with haste and against a stealth killer who wishes to down you without chasing it does very little. In any situation where you are injured for less than 50 seconds it's worse than a sprintburst/lithe triggering, it also has the endurence however that is a relatively minor effect in the scope of things and the 3% will mostly matter in chase with little impact on map traversal. The perk helps make compliations against killers who aren't as good and does little against the killers you actually need help with, if you wish to predrop every pallet you don't need this perk to do that or make the chase not worth taking for the killer. The biggest issue with the perk as a whole is that it can be stacked with other exhastion perks like dead hard or balanced landing which are harder to trigger but very powerful when they do as then you can get the benefit of made for this and then get the benefit of another powerful exhaustion perk.
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I've personally not found it bad. The colour shceme is nice in my opinion and I've not had much issue tracking scratch marks on the map or finding people. The balance of the map doesn't feel remarkable, I've not noticed any insane set ups and although they're a good amount of pallets with a strong main building they're not many interconnected loops from my experience keeping it tame. Biggest gripe is that the edges of the map feel unnescerarry being large and empty creating areas which can be difficult to hook in, trimming down this excess fat I feel like could be good. I also find it's often hard to indentify where pallets are from a distance as they're often hidden in the tiles they're in. I've heard some people complain about line of sight but I've not played many range killers post patch and I like it for playing stealth killers.
I do love the visuals of the map with the ambience, different types of alien funa and flora and unique materials the structures are made off. I do sometimes struggle to see on some of the darker maps due to the lighting in my room, sometimes struggling to see objects straight infront of me, so a map that is a bit brighter is nice for me. This has generally been one of my favourite maps for a long time and I hope this realm is expanded upon if possible.
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Without getting into specific placements within each tier:
I feel like B-tier is a bit bloated, the power difference in the tier is high while being much bigger than the rest. As someone who has mained ghostface and doctor, they're not the same strength as many of those killers and I would say the same for demogoron, nemesis, and billy. Ghostface is strong potential but very low floor with a large dependency on map, doctor is the opposite with very consistent mathces but lacking overall potential for insane plays, demogorgon similarily just doesn't have much that is unfair and is very predictible with play and build, Billy like ghostface is high potential but really struggles against smart players while having a high skillfloor and nemesis has the base kit of a B tier killer but not the addons or perk synergy to really push him up there.
I entirely agree with the killers currently in C and D tier. D tier killers sometimes struggle to even do something useful with thier powers while the C tier ones are pretty consistent at getting value with definate potential. Glad to see someone recognised the strength of Knight and Skull merchant and also isn't just dismissing the new killer as trash because they sometimes feel bad.
Only killers I'd want to move up a tier would be Wraith (B-tier) and Twins (A-tier). Recent changes to healing, dead hard and killer perks generally benefit both of them quite a bit and into more average teams they regually decimate while still having potential against better players. Wraith has to put in more work especially early while Twins can basically always pop off with smart play.
Their is a case to move some killers around post patch with the new perk Made for This however I don't see this being much more impactful than sprint burst long term personally and not many killers need to move around it unless it gets really big.
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Two massive issues which you both said, 5 skill checks while not having the bonus skill check chance from a toolbox is very unreliable and the 50% penalty is way too punishing. I wouldn't even say it was that strong on the ptb outside using it with some very strong toolboxes but it's similar to hyperfocus stakeout, it's not the perks that are over powered or making gens go insanely fast as much as it's the toolboxes and efficent playstyle people use to make them work. They should come back to this perk because the butchered state it's in now is sad.
As for your edit, no that's always how it worked the other users were incorrect. The wording is not clear however as the perk being "active" and "activating the perk" refer to two different things, using the last charge and getting 5 great skill checks.
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One thing I feel like dbd does better is the survivors can't directly fight. They can use elements of the map or stall for time but there is basically no option for an attack, flashlights annoy and pallets delay but they don't hurt/kill. This power difference is, in my opinion, important for horror as I've never felt much tension in a horror game if I have a gun and gun beats bad guy, playing VHS felt like this where there were situations where I unironically felt stronger than the monster and this horror illusion broke. Horror is based of fear and when you are inheriently weaker and all you can do is run that triggers some prey instinct which is what horror is built off, a more balanced back and forth of power means people swap between prey and preditor throughout the match which I don't like.
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@nars said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3454523#Comment_3454523
why didnt I think of that!? thats so much simpler, thank you so much for articulating how I feel about this perk so well lol. you mind if I add a paraphrased version to the post?
Sure. I will note that you shouldn't solely believe the maths as you will miss out on a lot of important infomation which isn't as numeric. Some important factors for both sides of the SB vs MFT argument that I didn't cover and should of are:
SB is stronger:
- The distance SB gets can be obatined while healthy. Not only is this better against instadowns but also means the distance can mean you avoid being injured at all, while MFT means you must get injured if you were already healthy to gain any distance.
- SB is a short burst of speed which is better for repositioning, allowing you to get out of deadzones and unsafe tiles with ease (that second one applies more to lithe however). This also makes it better against stealth killers such as wraith as it's more likely to get you to a pallet or vault.
MFT is stronger:
- It has unique perk synergies. Iron will works very well as you stack the same condition allowing you to get the value of both in one. DH also works well as you can use it when you would go down anyway allowing you to get value from both MFT and DH in one chase.
- MFT can make some unsafe loops safe and safe loops very safe so why reposition from an unsafe area when sometimes you could make it safe. Although I don't know too many specific examples I believe shack and TL walls become much safer with this, the latter being an example of a tile which isn't always great usually.
I generally would agree SB is better than MFT as it's safer but still very strong although the potential for MFT is thier and I would say potnetially makes it better than lithe. Finally, needing to be injured for MFT is different than need to get injured for overcome as overcome needs you to be healthy first while MFT doesn't, I believe this was a miss judgement or understanding in your original.
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I would like to propose some simplier maths. Sprint burst/lithe (best exhaustion perks of last patch) gave 50% extra speed for 3 second which translates to 6m over 3 seconds. Made for this provides 3% extra speed which is 0.12m per second. If you want made for this to match sprintburst/lithe in value you need to last 6/0.12 = 50 seconds while injured with it which is quite a long time especially against some stronger killers. What does this mean? 50 seconds is a long time even with the 3% haste so I'd say this perk is probably worse than Sprint burst/lithe but is reasonable enough that the perk isn't bad (espcially considering it still gets value up until these 50 seconds). I will say this perk does better against killers with weaker chase where those 50 seconds can be more reasonable and worse against stronger chase killers who can down you anyway, instadown killers who avoid you being injured and stealth killer who can down you without a chase. It's solid but still worse than it's best competition.
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They're all perks that are very focused on the chase and that usually want builds dedicated to them to optimise thier value, singalarity doesn't need much support in chase so 3 chase perks is overkill and if you're running all 3 they aren't helping eah other reducing the value you get from them. Genetic limits is nice for hit and run builds of singalarity but the haste from machine learning/hindered from forced hesitation doesn't matter so much on a killer who can teleport on top of the survivors. I do like perks that work well on thier killer (such as corrupt intervention or discordance) however I can see the value in making perks that work well on other killers as that may encourage players who don't care about the killer to buy the chapter for the perks.
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I personally didn't think pop needed a buff however it'll be an interesting shake up. Initially I'm seeing a lot of pop and it's a very good perk and keeping gens low especially on more mobile killers who don't lose much distance or when used with other gen kicking perks like eruption. I've had a few matches where killers lost gens early but were able to create a very strong defence once at 3-4 gens left which if the killer had previously killed someone became almost impossible to break beyond a god tier chase, not like the old 3 gens however because they did actually have to commit to downing the survivor. As stated previously this has the benefit over old pop of working on gens which are 90 seconds not 80, having an additional 2.5% when applied and new gen kick perks which are actually good although it's worse at bringing gens to 0% (which is probably good for the game).
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Yes because botany is worth it by itself. Compared to We'll make it it's less of a bonus but you have it all the time which is very nice against killers such as wraith or legion who injure people without downing them a lot, making it a good perk. At this point selfcare is basically just old selfcare which is a good perk and defiently worth running if you want to keep yourself healthy, the only weakness is the change to hemorage (namely sloppy butcher) makes it much weaker when playing against it however botany is very good against sloppy butcher so this evens out.
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I would ask for the opposite, having to search a chest then rummage it can feel extremely slow and pharmacy was already made more akward to use by requring you to be injured first meaning you can't get the medkit at the start of the game, when there isn't much demmand to help anyone else yet. Being able to search a chets at the start of the game to get the item you want feels very good but spending 20~ seconds to do so doesn't and I'd much rather pharmacy had its old text and risidual manifest and scavenger would just guarentee on the first search instead of rummage.
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DS is still useful because it stacks with endurence. The obvious example if the off the hook endurence which many killers may eat if they want to tunnel but also perks like DH or BT which although less common are still useful. As you said you should be near a loop when downed with it really and anything else is either a misplay or being hooked in the most unfortunate deadzone imaginable. To an extent you could call OTR and DS bad perks because they don't disway tunneling but instead punish it which is different to old DS where if there was an obession in a match the killer couldn't really tunnel safely preventing it in the first place. If I could suggest one buff I'd remove it's once per game restriction, after tunneling and survivor off first hook it may actually encourage the killer to not do the same off second hook if they see the survivor has DS and would allow more time to be brought for your team to help or get the gates ready for you to escape.
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I mean hope was already like this before. 107% was enough to take 110% on a long enough chase because of the survivor's smaller hit boxes and faster vault speeds and most 115% would lose chasing a hope user anyway, at this point in the game all the gens are done and chasing anyone with hope will buy everyone enough time to open gates and get out including the person you chase. At the end of the day if survivors are trying to "take the game hostage" with this you can open the gates yourself and reguardless of the new perk this kind of interaction happened with hope anyway. I will agree this perk has the potential to break the game in the future if there is another easy to access haste bonus however I doubt any serious issues will arise from this in the immediate future.
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If I could give my input for what makes survivor fun is the careful balance of gens with interactions. Generators by themselves aren't interesting but when you have to balance doing them with healing, alturism and side objectives it becomes difficult. Chases aren't just about wasting time but taking the killer away from your teammates and objectives and going to save a teammates is a careful act which sometimes isn't worth it. That is to say what makes gens fun is the game around them and the other demmands that are thrown at you as survivor.
What makes the killer interaction fun for me is the fact that they take me off the things I and my team need to do and an interaction going well for a killer potentially creates other demands for us to do and the literial pressure of having multiple things to do. Now if the killer doesn't create this pressure, if they fail to get hits or down then it isn't fun. The chases lose tension because we're not losing and gens become less interesting because nothing is making them difficult to do. Yes doing gens for 4 minutes isn't fun but I'd have more fun getting on with it and moving on to the next match than premeptively deciding we've won and faffing about for 10 minutes with chases that ultimately don't mean anything. Player interaction is fun when there are stakes at hand and the microgame loses stakes when you have to intentionally throw to make it happen.