Rhoska
Rhoska
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2562179#Comment_2562179
This is very true to an extent. I think many killers vastly overestimate their skill. Or their chase might be solid but their game management is horrible. The best killer players out there still aren't losing many games with MMR turned on. You need some level of information against an elite killer.
Its the otherway around.
The better the 4 Survivors are, the greater they can leverage numerical superiority and whats associated with that (as a pool of 16perks/4 items/and coordinated actions), past the potential of even a good Killer whom is always solo, has only 4 perks, 5gens and whatever abilities that Killer has with 2 slots for items, no matter how good/bad the Survivors are, or how good/bad Killer is.
Survivors potential scales far better into higher tier matches.
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Abuse of voice comms, is the problem.
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@Yords said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2562211#Comment_2562211
If you are on a hook you can struggle to ######### or choosing to wait for your team to save you.
I know slugging is real gameplay, I was just exaggerating how boring it can be for the slugged survivor.
Hooked can struggle, perhaps get off.
Slugged can crawl and hide.
Arguably its not "fun" for any Survivor to be in either state, but thats also what is "fun" and necessary for the Killer.
Its the Killers choice to hook or slug, its part of the actual gameplay.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2562299#Comment_2562299
There is plenty of video evidence that the game is ridiculously killer sided. All you have to do is watch Twitch and you hardly ever see survivors win. After 5 years of nothing but survivor nerfs and killer QOL patches, there is enough evidence they care very little about survivor experience, especially solos.
Survivor gameplay is totally in the dumpster as the game has evolved into nothing but a power fantasy for killers.
Then why is the average only 2K?
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@KnotEnthusiast said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2561255#Comment_2561255
The implications being that the average killer has a 50% chance of killing the average survivor? Yes I do. I know there are plenty of other parts at play, and that these stats don't tell the whole story. And I know a lot of killers (myself included) don't count anything less than a 3/4k as a win, so these stats mean on average, the killer loses more than they win. But for the health and longevity of the game, as close to 50% is a good thing.
You made a bit of a statistical mistake.
At 2K average, from Killer perspective, that means from pool of 4 Survivors, an average killer has a 25% chance of killing any one of the average Survivors (not 50%).
To achieve 2K, at that average, Killer has to act on each of the 4 Survivors, and as 2K is 50%, and 4K is 100%, killing each Survivor is a separate, individual, 25% likelihood for a kill.
Inversely however, from Survivor perspective, 2K average means each of them has a 50% chance to survive the Trial.
The average of 50% (2K) presents differently from Killer (solo) perspective, to that of the perspective of any 1 of the 4 Survivors.
This is because Killer is solo, so indivisible, whereas there are 4 Survivors that each splits the odds.
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As to Killers "expecting" 3/4K, the data average in reality doesnt match that.
Thats what I said earlier. 2K is that which on average can already be considered a "win" by Killer in this current status quo, and that also inversely should reflect on what Survivors also consider a "win" for them (meaning if only 2 get out, their team "lost").
And by extension of that, the higher the skill level/coordination of 4 Survivors in team (ESPECIALLY if on voice-comms) vs even the best of Killers, the disparity of odds increases dramatically, such that frankly even 1K can be considered a "win" for Killer, and a "lose" for Survivor team.
That because there still (regardless of skill level etc) is only 1 Killer played by one person, whereas there are 4 persons playing different characters on Survivor side, so they can leverage in ways that are impossible for the Killer to match, and that is reflected in the odds.
2K is a "win" for Killers, on average.
Thus 2K is a "lose" for Survivors, on average.
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@Yords said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2555443#Comment_2555443
Because there is actually gameplay
How is hooking more "actual gameplay" than slugging?
Remember, that each and every hook is preceeded by a slugging (unless grabbed, and in which case the Killer can drop the grabbed Survivor also, thus slugging).
Slugging thus IS actual gameplay, and a core mechanic.
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@EqMonkVeeshan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2561131#Comment_2561131
See the biggest issue is slugging is probably the most powerful tool in the killers arsenal infact its part of their base kit. it hardly needs more perks focused on that core aspect when it is already so strong as it is. In fact this reminds me of something I read years ago on the steam forums long before you started playing so lets see if this sounds about right?
Killers said ages ago looping was unfun game play they cried and whined and behavior has spent the last 4 years reducing survivors abilities to loop killers, exhaustion changes, reduced the amount of safe loops and has really made an attempt to rid the maps of infinites this game right now is nothing like it was three years ago and nothing like it was 5 years ago. they have focused the new killers designs on killers that are anti loop as well. and most these changes I have totally agreed with they was needed.
Im more concerned with looping perks/abilities regarding Survivors, as looping IS a Survivor related mechanic rather than Killer. Its Survivors that use/need looping to fulfill objectives. Its part of their options.
But yes, further focus on this core mechanic also opens up the potential for interesting Killer related perks on being looped.
Overall my purpose in this thread is to raise up into discussion this (core) aspect of the game that has seen remarkably little focus.
Its taken for granted without afterthought, and I think thats a missed opportunity for meta development also. Perhaps even at best, looping could turn into its own form of more involving mini-game.
see asking for something already so strong to be buffed even further is just outright nuts.
Loops and that mechanic are an entirely different topic, and have nothing to do with slugging, which is the topic here.
Please try to keep on topic, specific to slugging.
Your transposing of, and "mirroring" what I said verbatim, substituting "looping" for "slugging" is irrelevant and off topic.
They are two completely different things.
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@EqMonkVeeshan said:
the problem is most players killers and survivors agree slugging is boring and unfun gameplay so asking them to focus on that aspect further then it already is, would really only hurt the game and drive away some of the player base. however I would love to see a survivor perk that allows us to speed up the bleed out process, because if i am on the ground more then 1 min I just go afk.
This makes no sense.
I addressed this earlier, in that this line of your "reasoning" regarding Survivors committing deliberate suidice to get out of the Trial, is already reconciled in that you can leave match or DC, whether hooked, slugged or not.
I dont think you are understanding that you are defeating your own argument and unduly complicating what this actual topic is about, which is core slugging mechanics and perks/abilities related to that.
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@KnotEnthusiast said:
Kill rates for most killers are well above the 50% threshold, so clearly the game isn't super survivor sided in all games. Learn to run tiles correctly and you can get all non-long walls out of the way in 20 seconds or less. DH for distance is annoying, but it's an exhaustion perk, it's supposed to be strong, just like sprint burst.
In short, git gud.
Premise there, is that 2K is above average.
Do you understand the implications of that?
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@EqMonkVeeshan said:
enter new anti slug perk. every time some one is put into a dying state you heal 5% of your recovery if your slugged at the time.
Im more concerned with slug perks/abilities regarding Killers, as slugging IS a Killer related mechanic rather than Survivor. Its Killers that use/need slugging to fulfill objectives. Its part of their options.
But yes, further focus on this core mechanic also opens up the potential for interesting Survivor related perks on being slugged.
Overall my purpose in this thread is to raise up into discussion this (core) aspect of the game that has seen remarkably little focus.
Its taken for granted without afterthought, and I think thats a missed opportunity for meta development also. Perhaps even at best, slugging could turn into its own form of more involving mini-game.
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@IWFreak said:
You say there aren't that many Slugging perks, but I disagree. As said in many posts before, there are perks like Infectious and Third Seal that help in Slugging. Yes, they aren't DIRECTLY related, but they have many synergies with it. I would say Sloppy also can be used as a Slugging perk, since healing is slower. Same goes for Dying Light, for which you need to hook...
As for the reason there aren't that many perks for Slugging...:
The devs are trying to decentivize killers from Slugging. Same reason why Prove Thyself was nerfed.
I personally don't hope new Slugging perks will be added, cuz I think it isnt fun. Yes, you could say that hooking and Slugging have the same effect: it disables the survivor from doing the objective and forces other survivors to come get them. But in the meantime hooked survivors have max 2 minutes (1 minute per hook-stage), bleeding out takes 4 minutes, as I understand from posts before.
The reason I don't like getting slugged, is because I can't do anything for that time. Yes I can crawl and recover. But I can't do anything else.
Getting hooked is faster, it only takes 2 minutes to die, maximum. But you also have the option to just #########, which you do not when getting slugged.
By getting slugged you are forced to do nothing the whole game, and sit out the whole game.
So yes, by Slugging you are indeed an ass, if you do it from the start. I understand it if you did it in endgame, and then hooked everyone right after.
1) Per my understanding, Sloppy doesnt affect heal time when slugged, nor does it increase bleeding while slugged. Indirectly though Sloppy hit Survivors, if allowed to bleed by Killer or dont "mend" (which doesnt require perk/medkit or another player), will be closer to death if/when a Sloppy Killer finally decides to slug them down, permanently.
2) As I said, and you agree, Knock Out is the only slug mechanic specific perk on Killer side.
3) Whether you think being slugged is "less fun" than being hooked, is really neither here nor there. And whether its "less fun" for Survivors is cancelled by it being "more fun" for Killers, so its arbitrary. Game is ofc supposed to be "fun" but some things are mandatory, though not "fun". For example M1 on gens is arguably not "fun" either, but is required to win for Survivors.
4) The option to "#########" while hooked is a pyrrhic choice, unless you are suggesting that a slugged Survivor should be able to somehow kill themselves also.
5) The duration of hook stages to death, and slugged bleeding to death, is an interesting comparison. But its countered by the fact that if a slugged is 99% healed, pickup is nigh instantaneous, whereas de-hooking takes a few seconds and can be grabbed on the process. Either way, altruism is forced unless the team is prepared to lose a member.
6) Calling sluggers/slugging an "ass" move, and those that do it "asses" is arguably rather toxic. I dont mind you doing so, that doesnt "offend" me, especially as this is a discussion thread on a topic and not personal, but on your part its not a valid argument either on the topic.
7) Slugging is a core mechanic, snd fundamental to the game. Every single hook is preceeded by a slugging (unless rarely grabbed), THATS how integral it is. Its ubiquitous and happens all the time.
As such, its a mechanic that ought not just be ignored, but taken very seriously in balance concerns and game development of especially perks/abilities that affect it.
8) Thus my argument and point of this thread, to seriously look at what slugging is and its part in this game as a core mechanic, and not just write it off/ignore it as somehow trivial, which it certainly is not.
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@R2k said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2559859#Comment_2559859
U underestimate people. If u want to offend someone u will find the way. And u can't just filter every single word in dictionary.
Or, you are underestimating people.
I you want to feel "offended", somehow you will find a way, and yes, we cant just filter every word in the dictionary.
Unfortunately there is no way to guage how "offended" someone actually is, or if they are taking offence just for the sake of it.
BHVR has however decided, as it can on its own platform, to filter certain words, and also in rules has dissallowed certain words on this forum pending moderators review.
As regarding Twitch, thats a different platform provider, and there registered members can block or ban other users from their streams or view, without any need for Twitch moderation actions. They can even appoint their own members moderators do do it for them.
Regarding censoring and whats considered "offensive", and calls specifically for punishment actions, that has proven itself a slippery slope.
No matter what companies do, a certain segment demands more restrictions and sticter punishment, for even the smallest considered slight. What began as an inch, has been extended into a mile, and still they demand more.
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@Hannacia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2559805#Comment_2559805
Never did i say i have the right nor did i say i want the right, nor did i say people shouldnt be allowed to say what they want. Please dont put words into my mouth :) However i would like the company to punish people that take it too far little better than they do now, and in this i mean people who really take it to personal insults or racism or disabilities.
The chat is filtered for profanity.
Its literally impossible for anyone to say something in the chat that would offend you or hurt your feelings.
As to you wanting someone ELSE to restrict expression and punish for it, on your behalf, thats a very slippery slope, and you ought perhaps why you want to go down it.
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@Rougual said:
Dude you should look into the Slug Meta.
Ill give you two examples:
1. Pig; Add Ons: Face Mask + Last Will (Blindness always active when trap is on, +1 Box) Knock Out, Infectious Fright, Ruin, Undying.
Alternatives: Deathbound for roaming without crouching, Third Seal is you like hit and run.
Goal: M1 and keep them down, make survivors rush gens with ruin so they kill eachother with traps, give them zero downtime and your constant attention to down, play with them a little and watch their heads pop to mix up the 4k bleed out win. Never use Hooks. Make them want to give up.
2. Freddy; Red Paintbrush (Everyone is asleep, failing skillchecks won't wake them up, Hooking will mever wake them up because you never hook.)
Knockout, Ruin, Undying, Surveillance work great if you fake teleports often, lets you know if someone jumps off a gen and you can cancel your power and cut them off because nobody wants to risk laying on the ground for 3 minutes while everyone leaves you to die.
Knock Out may be the best option but Add Ons and playstyles are out their.
Tip 1: Doctor can find and shock the last survivor easily to tier 3 madness and they cant pick up slugs, you can mess with the last survivor and make them watch their team die while they stand their helplessly trying to snap out of it.
Tip 2: get yourself a ruler or eyeball it, pick up a survivor near the level of blood left till bleed out and line up their bars, they will bleed out at the same moment and hatch won't open. If you had them waste Unbreakable you can walk away and let them die alone without attention.
Tip 3: Watch out for Soul Gaurd, if one has it leave them for last or let them break your totems.
Tip 4: Learn how to tell if someone has Unbreakable by discovering the trick. If you figure it out don't tell Survivors. Shhh..
Awesome on-topic post.
Thanks for the builds and tips.
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@Hannacia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2559563#Comment_2559563
I dont mean to take people's rights to talk away no, i just simply think people should have more i dont know maybe empathy towards others, maybe respect? I don't think its normal when someone insults you after a game where they eather died or escaped or killed everyone or noone. By insulting i mean the truly negative things like attacking how someone looks like or calling them cancer or autistic which i personally truly hate. Or being racist and just really nasty. Small things like oh no you are a jerk you noob those people should be able to handle and laugh about. I truly mean the bad stuff which i have lately seen a bit too much.
Everyone has the right to express themselfs you are correct but everyone should also think before opening their mouths if its 100% necessary to say what they are about to say.
There is salt and then there is people that just want to hurt you
You dont have the right to restrict what other people can say, nor demand punishment for it.
BHVR howevet can restrict what it allows on its privately owned platforms.
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@apathyinc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2557801#Comment_2557801
Many killers don't "overlook" these "many aspects". They just don't do it because bleeding out a survivor doesn't award any points for sacrifices. There is a difference between a kill and a sacrifice, bleeding out a survivor doesn't give you any points for the effort, because you aren't doing anything.
If you were using this no point strategy to do something like stay in low MMR and bleed out inexperienced players over and over because it is "fun" for you, whatever, but it sounds like you are taking this game way too seriously. Not saying you do that, but if you do, then yeah, maybe it's time for a break.
Is there supposed to be a point somewhere in that rambling mess of (not so) veiled condescension?
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@latinfla4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2555523#Comment_2555523
What would you suggest instead of slowdown perks?😊
From the perspective that Killers need hits/downs/slugs/hooks as their primary mechanism to "win, and that Survivors need gens done (and as many Survivors alive and moving as possible doing them), instead of slowdown perks, perks that facilitate getting hits on Survivors, ease chases/loops would be primary, and slow-down secondary.
To paraphrase: Slowing Survivor progression wont "win" you the Trial, it only makes it slightly slower for Survivors to fulfill their objectives.
Interesting comparison, is slotting 4 slowdown perks, so going all out on that. Then you significantly slow Survivor progression, but you have no help from perks to actually fulfill your objective of getting hits. So you will have more time in which to "win", but nothing else (perkwise) that actually helps you "win" in that time.
So slow-down perks are like medication that helps slow down the progression of a terminal condition, but doesnt "cure" it. From the Killers perspective, the only "cure" is elimination of the Survivors (which requires hittibg them), and to facilitate that, key perks are a substantial help.
Perhaps the most important of those, is Brutal Strength to quicker kick through pallets, doors and also gen kicking. In an average match (different in top level matches), a Killer has to repeatedly kick those, so the advantage of 20% off each such action quickly adds up, plus ofc time/distance to chased in each pursuit (so they cant as readily reach another), and after 5 you sort of get the 6th one "free", in the time you saved on the previous 5.
Corrupt in total time, will likely earn you more "time" total than Brutal Strength, but Corrupt wont help you later in chases, and Brutal Strength has (as was in my list of perk priorities) the advantage that it lasts throughout the match and is in the Killers own control/choice to use ingame and cant be countered, whereas in the Corrupt period at start, Survivors can just hide, hunt Totems or stack on the unblocked Gens, all of which are potentially harmful to the Killers setup.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/286545/slugging
In practice, slugging isn't a realistic way to win games, as unless you have a fully stacked DH or NOED, you can easily teamwork around it (where you don't have counter-perks). It's mostly used in situations where you can potentially down multiple targets, to avoid certain second chance perks, as a counter to sabo/bad hook spawns or to BM.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2555669#Comment_2555669
What?
No it doesn't.
'Slugging' in common usage just refers to leaving a survivor 'downed' for a certain period of time, as there is a possibility of another down/saving a gen or to avoid certain perks.
What you are referring to is mostly just being BM, or being silly.
There you list some good uses of slugging, and in addition to those are the ones I have listed earlier throughout this thread.
Point being that slugging has many aspects to it that many players, especially Killers overlook, as we are "programmed" to focus on hooking more, and also Survivors "expect" it.
Also as my point in OP, that Devs also may be overlooking this core mechanic. (Such as its really only Knock Out in Killer perks that applies to it specificially, and no abilities are specific to slugging either).
TLDR: We are so used to "slugging" leading to hooks, that we take it fot granted somewhat without thinking/planning/perking to capitalize on it.
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SWF is fine.
SWF on voice-comms even can be fine.
But SWF on voice-comms deliberately abusing information sharing, strategizing activities, and alternating their perks etc, is NOT fine.
They ought remind themselves, and be reminded of that by others in community, that the game is not built to accomodate for voice-comm abusing, and that their choice to engage in that is deliberately and directly negatively (and unfairly) impacting the other human player on Killer side, that is playing alone vs them.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2555464#Comment_2555464
Hey, if you find slugging not unfun to go against, that's fine, that's your opinion. But the general opinion is that being slugged is just not fun. Of course the occasional slug is not a problem for most people, it's the 3 or 4 man slugs before hooking a survivor.
I think it's unfun in particular because it never really progresses the killers objective, or it only does that in an incredibly slow way, but it constantly means survivors have no breathing time, healing a slugged survivor takes a bit unlike unhooking a survivor, and in general a slug fest can make matches last very long, and just become boring because you are just constantly trying to pick each other up, and every once and a while, repair a bit of a gen. Meanwhile the chase gameplay can fall a bit short in comparison, which is arguably the most fun part about DBD.
But yeah, the reason that their are barely any perks aiding this playstyle is that most people do not enjoy going against a slugging killer.
1) Slugging doesnt necessarily make a longer match than triple hooking every Survivor does. Slugging inversely can infact make for a quicker match than that. In some senses also, the longer the match, the better for the Killer. Regardless, match length doesnt really matter, and they vary a great deal for many reasons.
2) "Unfunness" is subjective. And whats "fun" for Killers and Survivors are different, also whether they are necessary or not.
3) Slugging progresses Killer objective, in that it forces altruism (away from Gens etc) like does hooking, stops one player from actions (as does hooking) but also bleeds them.
Slugging also has the advantage, that unless perked for it, Survivors cant get up on their own, whereas a hooked survivor gets 3 chances in first hook to do so, regardless of perks.
Slugging also means you dont have to use time to carry them to hook, nor deal with harassment on the way there, or various other hook related perks.
4) As to lack of perks related to slugging on Killers, I think its simply an oversight regarding an often overlooked core mechanic.
Fact is, that its actually SO core, that every single hook is preceeded by a slugging (unless rarely grabbed). Slugging thus happens all the time in every match, but people (Killer and Survivor) often dont think anything more of it, as we are "programmed" for Killer to hook them asap, and Survivors "expect" that also, whereas that next step doesnt have to follow, and Killer can just leave them where they lie, or also drop them to slug where they want them to be.
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Bubba is the king of slugging, and from him comes Knock Out. Billy also.
But Ive been preferring slug-play with Wraith.
Perks vary in selection (Knock Out ofc, and mostly detection perks to chain slugs), but it helps to have Wraiths mobility and lack of Terror radius to pressure across the map and to rapidly return to re-slug those that are picked up, unnannounced.
Forget hooks and gens entirely.
Just focus on slugging everything that moves upright.
It plays havoc on Survivors that expect hook based play, and the time you save to exert pressure from not carrying to hooks starts adding up/paying out, as does their bleeding.
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@CrowVortex said:
There's cases that warrant slugging but either way no one likes it but it's necessary in some cases in order to win a game or secure a kill.
- A team that likes to bodyblock and running flashlights, more effective to slug them if they become oppressive.
- Down to 2-1 gens and lacking pressure, hook one, slug another who comes off the gen to attempt rescue.
- It's Endgame and Survivors have 99'ed the gate, Slug one, open the gate and either other survivors leave or you draw them into you while you're on top of the slug with timer counting down.
- Survivors are on top of each other after you down one in a chase, slug him and chase the other to force another survivor off a gen to heal the slug.
Yes, those are circumstantial and important as part of a Killers options. But as I said, each hook is preceeded by a slugging anyways. Slugging happens all the time, we just are "used" to thinking that a hooking follows.
Or, you can just flat out ignore the burden of hooking in play and perks, and just aggressively focus on slugging everything.
Try it. Forget hooks and gens. Just knock down and slug all that is moving and focus on only that.
Particularly good, is that you dont have to worry about BT anymore, or then stunning you off your shoulder, nor waste time carrying them to hooks with obnoxious flashlights in your face or hook destroyers, or body blocks to the hook.
When all 4 are slugged, you can hook them at your leisure, if you wish, but I recommend keeping an eye on each that you do, cos they can (due to another mechanic that slugs dont have) jump off if they get a lucky RNG roll out of 3.
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@LiquidPhat said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2555660#Comment_2555660
Like I said, don't complain when survivors advocate as well for more anti-slugging perks.
What makes you think I would complain about your complaints? :D
Slugging is a real and core mechanic of this game. Are you now here already complaining about that?
And Survivors already have Unbreakable as a native non-DLC perk, so what do you have to complain about?
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@justbecause said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2555666#Comment_2555666
Slug doesn't mean that? Slug means basically leaving survs on purpose on floor going after others there's difference between slugged and downed....hooking ppl is main mechanic of game not that u just lose points but also zero hooks and it's gonna take a while until u get everyone down or they bleed out game would go for an hour for no reason slugging has no point unless it's endgame ofc it just promotes toxicity and nobody wants to lay on floor for most of the match u said u would down them and than they get picked up and u slugg them back to ground you don't see anything wrong with that? U actually think that's valid and fair?
Yes, its entirely valid and fair.
As I explained, every hook (except from a rare grab) is preceeded by you being a slug.
The mechanic is intrgral to the game, and arguably more so than thereafter hooking, which is optional and additive (for certain benefits, such as BP and hook stages), but certainly not mandatory.
As to terminology of "slugging", its literally the comparison to the Survivor as a slug that crawls slowly on its belly, leaving a trace of bodily fluids, and cant do anything else.
As to how long bleeding out takes, thats also an integral part of the game, and a core mechanic, and occurs when you are a slug.
Killers have four means to eliminate Survivors. By hook, by bleeding to death, by Mori or by Entity when game expires after gates are open.
All are valid.
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@justbecause said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2555652#Comment_2555652
Slugging someone over and over until they bleed out is dic* move and definitely not any kind of strategy hooks are there for a reason and they will remain there with purpose slugging over and over waiting for them to bleed out is just toxic and idk if u think u discovered hot water or something but it ain't it but as I said u keep u do you
"Toxic" "dic*move"
No, perfectly valid and fair.
Remember and realize, that every Survivor that gets hooked (unless grabbed, which is exceedingly rare and a Survivor massive failure), was ALREADY slugged, each time, before each hook.
You were a slug before each hook.
If you got hooked three times, you were a slug, first, three times.
The only difference in this, is you remain a slug, and Killer doesnt waste time to hook you.
Killers dont have to, or even need to, slug you three times to hook you three times.
They can just slug you once, without the hook, and that can be enough.
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@LiquidPhat said:
Feel free to advocate for more perks that cater towards slugging. Just don't complain when survivors bring Unbreakable and Soul-guard and want other perks that help us not get slugged also.
Have a nice day.
Unbreakable only works once, and if I can force you to slot it, thats one less perk I need to worry about for something else.
Soul Guard is more complex, but in essence, you have to be unslugged first anyways for it to activate.
And regarding those both, they are already in the game, and Ill just slug you again, and again, as many times as it takes.
The purpose in this, is to sidestep the burdensome Hook mechanic, and also Survivor perks related to that, which many slot.
Also the purpose of this post, is to remind Killers that Hooking, though its been "programmed" into us behaviorally, is not the only way to play.
Slugging can be far more efficient, and most Survivors expecting the traditional Hook play, will be taken aback when the Killer doesnt play the way they expect.
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@justbecause said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2555504#Comment_2555504
There's no perks for that because that's bs and it's gonna stay that way slugging over and over leads to nowhere but 20 minutes + of pointless boring gameplay than usual normall match if u do that that's ur choice but stop acting like it's strategy when when's it's nothing but dic* move
Whats pointless about it, and why would it take 20mins? When/if you have 3 slugged, there is only one to deal with.
For a Killer it makes no difference in terms of having to rechase a risen slug, to having to rechase an unhooked survivor.
Mathematically, if you consider all the time it takes to carry each Survivor multiple times to a Hook, that is time you could instead spend aggressing the unslugged ones and those that try to pick up the ones you already put down.
The hook mechanic is burdensome in comparison.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2555479#Comment_2555479
There is still RNG involved with Slugging because as part of the meta, many survivors opt to bring Unbreakable, or one of them could bring syringe, WGLF, etc.
Hooking survivors kills them faster without any trade off. So if you leave someone on the ground, yes you will pressure others to pick up but also if they are successful at it you’ve just reset their hook. Meanwhile 2 gens were finished because you were trying to apply pressure via a slug.
Slugging when not done excessively promotes healthy fun teamwork. I do it sometimes and sometimes it’s just not worth it. I never slug for the 4K because I’m not that invested. I’d much rather have fun chases and get my hooks in.
RNG=Random Number Generation.
The perks and items Survivors bring are not random. They are detemined. The chance to unhook oneself, is RNG (even with perk).
Yes, hooking has advantage of progression in phases to elimination of that Survivor, and is "faster" than slugging, but slugging nonetheless, as you agree, facilitates the same function of disabling that Survivor and forcing another to save them, and at length, causes death by bleeding.
That then draws back to my OP, regarding how/why such a crucial core mechanic is so little represented in Killer abilities/perks to capitalize on specific to slugging.
And also the concept that slugging is a way to sidestep the Hook mechanic.
Pragmatically also, as I positted, it is better and easier to have 3 Survivors slugged, than it is to have 3 Survivors hooked, is it not?
Key to that, is 1st stage hooked can jump off without perks, but slugged cant get up without one.
Id much prefer to create a result where I have 2-3 slugged, than the (almost impossible to maintain) of 2-3 hooked.
And as I said and bears repeating, slugged Survivors are closer to dying every second they bleed out.
For a definitive 4K by hook you need ~12 hooks. But for 4K by slugging, you can potentially achieve it with only 4 slugs.
Id also argue, that slugging creates more pressure than hooking.
Same as how generally even if you slot Pop or Overcharge, kicking gens is time away from actually chasing/hitting survivors, so also is carrying Survivors to Hooks a net loss in time, rather than just slugging them.
The playstyle and perks involved are different, and requires highly aggressive approach, but the payoff is that you sidestep the burdensome Hook mechanic, snd playing on Survivors terms, and can take control of the game yourself.
Survivors also are "trained" to expect hooking mindset, and perked for that. They are not prepared for instead aggressive slugging.
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@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2555597#Comment_2555597
Yes. I fully agree that you are scared of swf. Honestly it makes me giggle to think about.
You see 3 little icons showing someone is on a different platform and you run away, that's funny.
You seem to believe that me validating your opinions is the same as agreeing with them. It isn't, it's just my refusal to invalidate your personal experience. Personally I like swf. It adds to the game and makes survivor much more fun. But I'm not going to pretend like my opinion is more important and invalidates your own.
I'm sorry that you are so unused to having people who respect your opinion and still think you are factually incorrect speak with you, that you are unable to recognize it. Hopefully tweaking you on your cowardly playstyle firs put you on familiar footing and helps you understand.
That whole post again, is a misconstruance were you, again, superimpose "your" views as if they were mine, and to which in the record you already stated that I was not wrong, you said "yes" to them, and have not refuted them.
Why you do this, I dont know, not is it my concern or problem, just yours.
I was right, you agreed to that, yet you still present as if somehow it was otherwise, and worse, deliberately misrepresent what I have said in false contrivances of them.
Again, why you do that, I dont know, but its you doing that, not me, and thats on you and your pyschology/mentality, not mine.
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@Labrac said:
You forgot Infectious Fright, Third Seal and Deerstalker
I didnt "forget" them.
They just dont actually affect slugging itself.
Only Knock Out does that.
------
Infectious Fright affects OTHERS in Terror Radius of whom is put into dying state.
Third Seal is specific to a M1 hit.
Deerstalker is just a detection of dying Survivors.
None of those actually affect the slugged themself, or the slugging mechanic, except Knock Out.
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@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2555582#Comment_2555582
All the points you made come down to you presenting your personal experience and likes as though they are facts.
I'm not going to disagree with whether or not you like something. Yeah, you don't like swf. Yeah, you run away when you think the match is going to be too hard for you. That's your opinion, I can't disagree with that, because I'm not you.
What you haven't done, at all, is show how your opinions matter beyond whether or not you choose to play a match or run from it.
You don't like swf and cross play. Swf and cross play are both very very popular despite your dislike. Prove me wrong.
Go back and re-read this thread, where you have said "yes" to my points.
You have no basis for your strange dualistic insistence that I have been wrong to that which you agreed on.
Why you do this is beyond me, is irrational, and not my concern, but its readily apparent and your problem and causation, not mine.
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@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2555572#Comment_2555572
You're right that you dislike those things
You are wrong that they are hurting the game overall.
Just that simple. The things you dislike are what keeps new players coming in.
You have not refuted even one of the points I made.
Instead you have agreed with all of them, but "present" as if somehow you are in disagreement, or if I had stated falsely.
Thats irrational, and on you.
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Nothing you said there refutes any of the points I made.
Instead, you repeatedly agree with them, and say "yes" that I was infact correct, valid and covered them already.
Why you contrive to present as disagreeing, when infact I was right all along, and you repeatedly state you agree with what I stated, is peculiar.
You were wrong. I was right.
Deal with it.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2555525#Comment_2555525
What? Every Pinhead I've ever encountered with that build chases the box. There's no other reason to run that build. Yeah, I'll just pick it up out of Hoarder range on The Game or Midwich.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2555529#Comment_2555529
Being interrupted by a chain every two seconds is the unfun part.
Being interrupted by chains is how the core mechanic of Pinhead works.
Its not "fun" either for Killers to discover that an unhooker had BT, and the unhooked one absorbs a wasted hit.
Im seeing a lot of this "fun" argument thrown around, and its all subjective and irrelevant to balance.
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@EntitySpawn said:
Actually the devs said they're not looking at hoarder or Franklin's on him. The iri fang probably, just add a range requirement.
I'm all for good and strong killers, nearly all need a buff and things like base regression and kicks should be changed.
But the fang is abit strong, need a slight change/requirement. But pinhead shouldn't break his chains and they should always spawn infront/side of where the survivors facing
I dont think its possible, or desirable for the game to be programmed to spawn chain portals in Chain Hunt as specific to where the Survivor is facing.
Player behavior is unpredictable, and facing can be changed instantaneously.
Worse, they arent even connected, as as a Survivor can be moving in one direction, though their facing is another, such as looking backwards while running forwards.
Player facing is irrelevant to the Chain Hunt mechanic, all that matters, is that the Chain Hunt mechanic applies the chains it should so as to facilitate the amount of delays and checks to slow them down.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2555331#Comment_2555331
Do you genuinely think it's fun for survivors to constantly deal with a chain hunt? Honestly ask yourself that question. Something can be fun for one side but unhealthy overall.
Its a game.
Whats not "fun" about dealing with the core mechanic of Cenobite?
What is your intepreration of "fun" and is it not thus "fun" for the Cenobite Killer player?
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Slowdown perks are necessary only vs SWF on voice comms, but even then, it only delays them abit, and doesnt help you win as Killer.
Killer objective is to eliminate Survivors.
Survivor objective is to finish Gens.
Its rational to focus on perks that help eliminate Survivors, rather than the secondary of delaying Survivors to achieve their gen goal.
But then again, frankly 1 Killer vs 4 SWF on voice is a losing proposition anyways.
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@justbecause said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2555491#Comment_2555491
Because you slug people? Anyhow do as you wish just don't come here complaining when people dc because they didn't come to play floor is lava
Where did I complain about people DC?
If they DC, thats their choice, screws their team, and increases my win ratio.
Do you grasp, that before every hook (unless you grab them without 2 hits) ALL Survivors are slugged?
Its a key, core mechanic.
2 hits, and you are slugged. Period. Its systemic.
The essential difference here at issue, is just not hooking them afterwards, and why should a Killer bother to do so instead of leaving them slugged, disabled from gens or other actions, to bleed out, and also require another Survivor to pick them up, whom you can then reslug or hit the saviour to slug them later.
In many senses, its better to slug, than hook.
And related to that, why is there only one perk (and no Killer abilities) except Knock Out, that are specific to DYING/slugged Survivors, though its a seminal, core mechanic?
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@justbecause said:
Ummm because we ain't in penthouse and nobody wants to lay on floor whole match?
Why would you lay on the floor longer than you would hanging from a hook?
Surely in either case, someone will come save you, or your fate is the same?
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@Johnny_XMan said:
My personal view is that Slugging (while annoying) in some instances it does make sense to do it.
Generally I tend to hate excessive slugging because some players choose to do it at the beginning of the match and that just isn’t fun IMO. Yes, fun. Because as much as it is very easy to just choose to leave someone on the ground, nobody should spend that much time on the ground.
If they were to add more slugging perks, I’d argue that they should buff survivors’ anti slugging perks because they aren’t very good atm (aside from Unbreakable).
Does it really matter to Killer whether a Survivor is Hooked or Slugged? Sure Hook has its minigame, but Hooks also can also by that by jumped off by RNG, whereas a slugged Survivor cant get up from RNG.
So arguably, slugging is better, except that you dont get BPs or perk tokens for Hooks if you have such related slotted.
The rough net effect is the same, in that they cant do anything until someone comes help them, and those that do, are pressured thus off gens.
Its almost impossible to have 3 survivors hooked at once, but its far more possible to have 3 survivors slugged, and with tracking perks, you can find the 4th, and just reslug whomever they pick up.
Plus whilst slugged, they literally are dying via bleeding, whereas Hook mechanic just looks at what hook stage they are in.
So slugging kills Survivors eventually, same as hooking.
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@vacaman said:
It is very hard to 4 man slug, I've been doing it these days to test stuff and mess up with mmr and you need knockout and infectious and pray they are not swf so they can call each others position. Imo slugging is more fun than going for hooks, games get much more active, chases everywhere and survivor spend less time on gens, i don't get the guy above that says it's boring, it actually keeps people active all the time, the fun part of the game.
You understood one of my core points.
For a Killer, just chaining slugs can be more fun than the Hook mechanics, and as I pointed out, if you slug enough, frequently, they bleed out on the ground and die, just as they would on a hook, and it also forces Survivors to come save them so you dont have to chase them around.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2555443#Comment_2555443
Because you don't sit on the hook for 4 minutes with no way to speed up that process.
So who is that not "fun" for?
Do you find being hooked to me fun? :D
The result is the same for Killer, in that the slugged cant do gens or any other actions except crawl or heal, and obligates another Survivor to stop doing other things and xome pick them up (latest before they bleed to death).
Sure, Killer takes a loss in BPs for not hooking, but if you have 3 slugged, its better than having 3 hooked, cos they cant get off the ground (without specific perk) but can potentially jump off the hook.
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@TMNoThumbs said:
I know infectious fright is technically a tracking perk, but in my experience ita generally used for slugging. I imagine there aren't more perks for it simply because being slugged is "unfun" for survivors.
Yes, Infectious Fright works well with slugging, but it doesnt actually involve/affect slugging mechanics in the way that only Knock out does.
Infectious Fright is a detection perk, it doesnt actually affect slugging mechanics at all.
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@Crowman said:
Do you really want more killer perks that incentive killers to slug rather than hook survivors?
Also you are forgetting perks like Infectious Fright which let killers know other survivors are nearby helps with slugging decisions. Hex: Third Seal making all other survivors blind is functionally the same thing as Knock Out hiding the aura.
No, because I specifically have used Infectious Fright with Knock Out specifically to chain slugging, and found it quite refreshing to not have to deal with the Hook mechanic at all.
When they are slugged, they cant do anything except crawl around, and need to be found and picked up by another Survivor, taking them off gen duties, same as hooking.
Thanks for the tip of Third Seal, but I dont hold Hexes in much regard. 4 eyes/hands easily destroy it before they have lasting effect.
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@Objectively_speaking said:
Common opinions | Hexes are global and affect everyone, Boons are limited to a smaller radius and have a limited effect to their radius and take time to set up. Whether or not these are good reasons depend on your stance but these are some common things to keep in mind. Additionally, always remember that perks are subject to change and they could always make adjustments at anytime.
Secondly, Hexes are High Risk\High Reward <you can shift the game using these easily> while boons are moderate risk\moderate reward <takes time to set up and use and can be snuffed in a couple seconds>.
<Important note> I think hexes, like any other perk could use some updates but I just want to give a little perspective on things.
Addition:
There are 4 Survivors that each can interact with Totems throughout the Trial.
Thats 4 pairs of eyes and hands, that can be all over the map, vs 1 of those for the Killer that can be in only one place at a time and has very limited time in addition to his other Killer time use requirements.
The universal effect of Killer Hexes is arbitrary vs the local effect of Boons, because there are 4 seeking the Killers Hexes, but just one 1 Killer for the 4 Boons of Survivors, and the imabalance in that is obvious, as well as the magnitude/mechanics of these proposed Boons.
They are a very, very, bad idea as now proposed.
This is, again, an issue where the 4v1 aspect of this game is both ingenious but also problematic to balance.
Its crucial to bear on mind, that the Killer is ALONE vs 4 other players, and that the Killer cant do more than 1 person can.
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2K is the "balance" point, as a "win" for Killer.
Thats the clear standard from stats.
There are too many Killers, abilities, perks to rationally "balance". Atbest, just specific outliers can be adjusted.
The only meaningful way to swing 2K as "win" standard, would be changes to core game mechanics that affect all Killers and/or all Survivors.
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I dont have any issue with SWF, per se, albiet its a massively different situation for Killer than solo players.
But. If the SWF is using voice comms, that is seriously problematic for Killers, as it renders many Killer abilities/perks useless, and enables Survivors to leverage their perks (and actions) in ways that are not accounted for, or balanced for, in the game itself.
If voice communication was "intended", it would be enabled in the game itself.
-------------
I dont know how you think I said consoles limit DBDs scope, except in my observations that:
- Consoles are a limiting platform as to game design, compared to PC. Crossplatforming forces game design to accomodate for console gamepads as the interface, in ways that a mouse and keyboard on PC are not limiting (and gamepad can also be plugged into a PC in addition to those.
- Also that if I see 2PC/2console in lobby, odds are better that its not a 3+SWF, and especially on voice comms.
- If I suspect a 3+ SWF, I will leave the lobby, and its my prerogative to do so.
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@James4125 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2553443#Comment_2553443
Ah yes. Telling me again that I don't play killer even though that's practically all I play. 😂 I HAVE EVERY KILLER MAXED OUT AND EVERY SINGLE KILLER ACHIEVEMENT.
I'm not sure how you're still not understanding this. So I'll try to explain it very slowly.
New players playing killer almost always get a 4k because new Survivors hide instead of doing gens.
New Survivors almost never escape because they don't know how to loop or lose the killer in chase. Nor do they understand the importance of pressure so they often leave gens and hide in corners.
New killers don't have this problem because their objective is to kill. Doesn't take much knowledge to follow someone until you catch them and as survivors run into the open instead of towards pallets they go down fast.
Bloodlust doesn't matter because the survivors don't know how to loop so they throw every pallet instantly and run in the open and baby killers kick every pallet asap so it never kicks in. Removing Bloodlust will have no affect in these ranks because chases either don't last 15 seconds or killers are constantly resetting it. On top of that NONE of these players even know what bloodlust is so they never force it.
If you nerf Survivors speed when they're injured that 4k almost every game becomes every single game. Why? Because the survivors are still just as bad but now they're bad and weaker.
If new players cannot win they won't have fun. If they don't have fun they stop playing. They stop playing and when older players inevitably get bored and leave the game dies.
You cannot change something so fundamentally important to the game and have it work out the same at low ranks and high ranks because low rank killers dominate and high rank Survivors dominate. Making Survivors weaker affects ALL survivors not just the strong ones. Removing bloodlust only affects the mid/high killers who know how it works and actually use it to their advantage. And those are the killers who ACTUALLY DO need help.
It doesnt matter what new players experience as either survivor or killer, as they dont know what they are doing, and will learn to get better.
Thus in regards to balance issues and changes, "new players" are neither here not there as anykind of cohort from which to draw conclusions or base decisions upon.
You arent making sense. Just seems you are ranting for the sake of it.
Your "think of the children!"-style argument doesnt work on this.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2553640#Comment_2553640
Because you used those arguments to claim that the game is as unbalanced as some people here believe. You called me biased and said I probably don't play killer much because I don't think the game is so survivor sided anymore. That's how this discussion started.
I was arguing against your post because I was backing up my viewpoints on this game's current state regarding balance.
I'm not refuting what you were saying. Never claimed I did. Don't know where you got this from. I just don't agree that this game is so unbalanced. And I argued why I think that way, by arguing that the optimum of one second in chase means three seconds progress on gens isn't the norm throughout the entire match, which you used as an argument to claim that this game is indeed unbalanced like the person was claiming that I responded too.
Nothing I said was false, all of it is accurate, and you state you do not contest any of it.
That you think survivor/killer balance "isnt that bad anymore as some say", thats, well, like your opinion.
My assesment is what I already posted.