Raptorrotas
Raptorrotas
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@StalkingYou said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950350#Comment_3950350
It's such a funny coincidence that whenever I point out that the strategy you want killers to employ every game doesn't work against good teams, you either don't address it or bring up something else.
Or, you interpret "good teams" as "comp teams" and go "those only make up .000000001% of the matches you play so who cares"Dont bother, the community is having problems to aknowledge the existence of bad players on the killer side.
you probably seen the "killstats shows nurse needs buffs"-retort, should suffice as explanation.
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@Scarlett1111 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3948915#Comment_3948915
Caring about winning in a party game is absolutely insane. Do you also care when you lose at Mario Party? Games are meant to be fun.
What Mario Party are you playing? People burned/blistered their hand spinning the stick in MP1+2, nintendo had to offer hand-protecting gloves.
People play MP to win.
Anyways if dbd was as casual as survivors claimed, then they wouldnt be so salty for losing...
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The same has been said about every meta defining survivor perk. Be it SC, BT, DS or DH...
Its people who wanna get the strongest stuff without using a perkslot for it.
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A casual game
is a video game targeted at a mass market audience, as opposed to a hardcore game, which is targeted at hobbyist gamers. Casual games may exhibit any type of gameplay and genre. They generally involve simpler rules, shorter sessions, and require less learned skill.
They do not expect familiarity with a standard set of mechanics, controls, and tropes.
Well atleast according to wikipedia, dbd isnt casual like cookie clicker or bejeweld lol. And survivors are way to angry after getting killed to be actually playing the game "casually"
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I wonder how killers being able who to chase or killing survivors tactically/ efficiently became such a controversial topic.
its not even a tool given to them but a strategy...
In contrast looping became encouraged tho.
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Nurse wouldnt stick out so much if the other killers didnt suck in comparison.
The Community wants to buff survivor so survivor(badplayer)= survivor(goodplayer)+comms(goodplayer)
I dont see why we cant close the gap between killers by buffs too.
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Please elaborate the metric the devs should track to make this change.
"Chasing the same survivor twice" is a rather broad condition check.
How can the devs define tunneling if the community whos crying about it cannot.
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@Nazzzak said:
I imagine they'll eventually find themselves in an MMR bracket better suited for them, especially with the upcoming SBMM improvements.
Its funny this is never said to survivors.
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Most survivors complain about killers killing too fast/efficient, you know its their objective.
Either allow killers to complain or shut up about tunneling.
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You should check out Identity V's selection of useable items.
Theres a flaregun that stuns the killer, a whip to snag a survivor of the shoulder, i think there were some elbow pads that make you dash like a deadhard with 5x the range.
But too much items on the offensive side might be obnoxious or unbalanced in dbd, idv has some different mechanics and balance in place. (Imagine the outrage if dbd killers had instant downs when a hit interrupts an action)
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Dbd is in a limbo in which survivors gets to enjoy the wonders of comms without it being part of the game design or balancing.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3894180#Comment_3894180
You've got it backwards. The topic is not about MMR or Nurse, it's you who brought these topics in. You brought these topics in, because you know that your initial claim of "50% winrate" is dishonest, and now you'd rather talk about MMR or other vague stuff.
But allow me to insist.
Simple question: do you think a 50% - 37% winrate is balanced yes or no?
And do you think it was honest to present this information as "Killers have a winrate of 50%", omitting the 37% of survivors?
Ties dont work in dbd. Theres no survivor team that loses when it's more than 2 kills. Its 4 survivors that each escape or not. On a 3k, the escaped survivor wins despite all others losing, for example.
A 2k is a loss for the killer and 2 survivors, while 2 others win. Its just as dishonest to count these escapes as "draw".
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Killers get banned so they have a deterent not to do it.
"You leave, you get punished. So dont leave."
Its horrific survivors dont understand it and have ways to ignore the penalty.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3891330#Comment_3891330
Alot of ppl don't differentiate them. They see ANY slugging as toxic. Watched a video the other day that kept swapping POV between various streamers playing survivor and the video content creator playing Billy. Billy came up on 2 guys at a gen and instantly downed one before chasing and downing the other (the streamer). The first guy was slugged for MAYBE 20 seconds, but that didn't stop the streamer from complaining that the Billy was slugging at 5 gens. If I find the clip I'll post it.
Its weird that the "at 5 gens" gets brought up so often. No one differentiates when survivors get flashlight/pallet/sabo saves. It's seen as equally valid doing it at 1st hook or death hook. Somehow applying pressure at 5 gens is toxic though.
"At 5 gens" is such a wonderful cop-out in my opinion.
It can mean anything between 7 gens at 0% and 7 gens at 99%. The number can also change at any given moment after about a minute or two into the trial. And it may even change by more than 1 within a short period.
Now imagine if someone kept pestering survivors not to do gens "at 0 hooks", they'd just be laughed at.
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I think its one of the things survivors want to close the swfgap. But its like with comms. You cant just interact with randoms as you do with friends.
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"Eh he's gonna get warped to the hook anyways. Dont need to get off the gen to help."
Survivors getting more reasons not to help each other. And then blame killers for other survivors not hlping each other up.
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Is there any thing in this game that wont lead to killer nerfs?
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Well. Identity V got a danganronpa skin collection. It fits the murder mystery vibe of that game. The artstyle of the survivors there helps tho.
I think DR in Dbd might work, though like with the concerns about the AOT collection, translating the anime artstyle into dbd's own is the crucial part.
Remember Quentin?
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@joeyspeehole said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882530#Comment_3882530
But I'm on the ground with three other people. We are lying there slugged, waiting for the game to end because we're just bleeding out. The killer is spinning in circles.
Either you hillariously gave a leatherface the once in the lifetime play of the game or you royally messed up the rescue attempts one after another.
Well anyways thats why i suggested just sacrificing all survivors in such a situation.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3882383#Comment_3882383
Literally anyone can play them competently if you give it a little time and patience, they are problematic, I play them and the new server desync thats came back this hotfix makes it so awful and easy to play I don't wanna hear the "Nowhere near that level".
MMR forces people to play against more experienced killers naturually the more the play, not because "High MMR" but because people who play often and optimally will plataeu in the same ranges.
Furthermore with the introduction of new regions, the playerbases are even smaller in EU now, I face said killers all the time, just because America has a bigger playerbase doesn't mean the rest of the world isn't dealing with the effects of crap MMR.
I think a lot of players need to start listening to each other and realise that these problems are common for the active playerbase who play OFTEN. Nurse is very unhealthy for the game, Blight is Unhealthy, I feel if these killers were dealt with we could make the game better for killers in general by giving QoL to the base game.
the game needs more help for casuals, there is no "Skill experession" in Nurse or blight, its point A to B quickly, they can't do anything crazy, they just do the same thing over and over.Same does apply to survivor zho. As per the posted stats, both solo and swf high mmr survivors are performing above target escape rate.
Tell me, is nerfing a character acceptable because a few outliers outperform the average? If you say this about nurse, the same applies to survivor.
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"Intended gameplay is to use hooks" ; so why arent survivors picking up the slugs? Thats "intended gameplay" too. Just pick up the downed survivor. If you can spare the time to unhook you got the same time to help up.
Maybe devs should look into just instant sacrificing all survivors if all survivors are incapacitated beyond recovery again
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Isnt it most survivors not wanting the one difference between solo and swf in the game? Comms are the one mechanical difference, the rest is player behavior.
But they dont want comms as tool in the game, that'd be acknowledging the advantage and would make way for compensatory killer buffs. The devs'd need to balance killers against "swf", not "solo" like currently the case.
I see most survivors wanting the RESULT of good comms usage without the mental strain of actually using comms. Bond basekit among other things, which are stronger than comms.
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Nice!
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@TragicSolitude said:
Why do I think there's no clear-cut win condition?
Usually, a win or loss is clearly indicated by the end screen. All survivors escape, the killer is told "The Entity hungers." Okay, so that's clearly a loss.
Sacrifice one, it's still "The Entity hungers." So, still a loss.
Sacrifice two, "Brutal Killer." Okay, two sacrifices is a draw, right?
Sacrifice three, "Ruthless Killer." Is that a win? The killer doesn't get bonus points for it. The survivor who escapes is better rewarded.
Sacrifice four, it's "Merciless Killer." There we go, that's different from the previous screens, so that must be the win condition. The killer gets bonus points for no one escaping.
Then why does everyone keep saying a 3k is a win and killers should let the 4th one go? Why did the devs say 2k is a draw if the killer isn't rewarded for "winning" with a 3k?
Then take into account SBMM and MMR. A killer's MMR increases for any kill, not just sacrifices. A bleed out counts as a kill which increases the killer's MMR. But the end screen will not count a bleed out as a sacrifice, so you'll get "Ruthless Killer" for three sacrifices and a bleed out. No Adept Killer achievement for the killer in that situation. I think the killer does get the bonus points for no survivors escaping, though. Mixed messages, there.
So… ??? It's hard to say there's a definite win condition when different scoring systems in the game treat an outcome differently.
Edit: I think I mixed up two things, so I fixed it. The end screen remains ambiguous and the point system does not reward three kills in a way that suggests three kills is a win.
Take this with a grain of salt because im killer biased.
In the first two years of dbd, killers only considered 4k a win ( like you said, only a 4k gets rewarded and lesser results got mocked by the game: "prtty killer" etc).
Then survivors started a constant stream of downplaying killer desire for 4k and conditioned/gaslit killers into considering a 3k a win too, even if the game doesnt reward it. (Similiarily in current time, survivors keep telling killers 2k arent a loss.)
Now as for topic tax:
3-4k are wins for killer, other results are losses. 4k still more desireable due to actual rewards.
Survivors is easy: escape = win, death= loss
Survivor team rating doesnt exist, so there arent ties or draws. A 2e/2k isnt a tie, but 2 players winning and 3 losing. Theres no survivor team to tie with the killer.
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Technically swf is neither op nor different from solo. Theyre the same characters, perks, items and technically can plan some stuff in the lobby (excluding comsole peasants).
So the difference is mostly mentality, comms or player skill. If it's not those three, its the character.
Then just like he nurse crusades have taught us, nerfing a character for good players winning with said character is totally acceptable, despite the majority of player sucking with the same. Dont be hypocrites lol.
The devs can't touch player skill or the mentality, and people are weird about adding comms to the game. They want all the results/info but without the actual comms. ( Ive seen people demand basekit bond, tho )
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3871080#Comment_3871080
If you want to zoom out, why not address killers not having fun paired with other strategies getting nerfed being the reason for the uptick in the unfun tactics survivors dislike, like tunneling and slugging? When you make comments like:
Why is it still so easy for a killer to tunnel someone out of the game before anyone else is hooked a single time? There should be a system that doesn't let that happen (specifically: tunneling someone out before a single hook on any of the 3 other survivors).You are passing the blame for survivors leaving to the way that killers are playing, and removing blame from the survivors who actually quit the game early. There is a big difference between reasoning and excuses, and that is defending an excuse. There is no parity in being able to leave the game early, so this is a moot point. Killers have no way of "going next" and are expected to remain in matches where they are losing or unable to conclude the match (I.E survivors hiding until server shutdown, ones who stomp due to bad matchmaking yet refuse to finish the match and drag things on as long as possible, etc.) and yet the killer is not only not allowed to leave early, but guaranteed to face ridicule for sticking with their match.
THAT would be zooming out and looking at the big picture: Your opponent making you miserable is not considered a valid reason for leaving the game. Unless you're a survivor apparently.
As for lessening the gap between SWF and Solo, you are indeed correct. The problem comes with how that would be attained, as most suggestions boil down to either "nerf killers" or "nerf SWF", with a handful being "buff solo" while accidentally (or not) overlaping with "nerf killers." Many of the disadvantages of solo relative to SWF have to do with core gameplay design, as a lack of knowledge was always a core tenant of the game's philosophy: Its why so many forms of information (perks and basekit, respectively) had to be added over the years. The issue is that SWF broke most of the game's core design, and they have been trying to get solo caught up to that slowly over time without kneecapping anything that relies on a lack of information. Meanwhile, Solos often feel that they deserve everything about SWF that broke the game in the first place, and demand it instead of actually trying to come up with ways of tightening the gap without nerfing killers against SWF in the process, or just outright breaking other mechanics. The best way they can help solos is to help them help themselves, there is an insane amount of sardonic mindsets where players burn themselves out hard and take it out on everyone around them, like this exact thread is about.
I always wonder how the devs are suposed to fix "the SWF group actually cares for each other" .
Mechanically solo and SWF are already the same.
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@UndeddJester said:
I dunno... I've heard veterans say this a lot... but as someone who took a very keen interest in the history of Dead By Daylight, all the things people cite and complain about as things being "unfun" in modern DBD, don't look like they were any less doable back in the day, and often were even more exploitable.
For example I hear people talk about: -
- AFC does nothing, killers just proxy camp... and yet Bubba face camping people under hook is apparently fondly remembered and better state of the game?
- Killers constantly tunnel off hook... and yet old Borrowed Time was hard meta that everyone took because it was so common.
- Killers constantly slug the whole team to death... and yet the old version of DS required killers to juggle if they were close enough to hook or leave survivors slugged.
- The Finisher Mori is so obnoxious, I hate having to watch moris as the killer rubs it in my face... and yet old moris could literally kill you on your first down.
- Modern flashlights take no skill, the old version you had to time it... and yet old flashlights had the add-ons to insta-blind the killer effortlessly even if they were walking.
- Survivors have so many second chance perks that are incredibly unfair to have to chew through... and yet in conjunctions with numerous infinites littering the game, survivors also had old Dead Hard where even if they made a mistake on said infinite, they could push a button and gain that mistake back.
- SBMM is plain broken, it doesn't work pairing newbies with veterans, and encourages sweaty play; the old grade system was so much better... except at the start of each season 10hr players would be thrown in with 5000+ players until they made it up the ranks, and players would crunch teams hard with broken strats until they reached top grade, and you only need to look at a single PTB to see how this goes.
Like... this is only a fraction of things from the history of DBD,and I honestly can't see how veterans can look at old DBD and think all of this unbelievably unfair BS somehow makes the game better or more fun...
Even if I'm being super generous... the only way I can see these mechanics as fun is because you're too busy laughing hard at the players (who don't know about/dont have a means to handle these things), that you are freely slam dunking hard into the tarmac to care how broken stuff is...
I've heard people like Coconuts talk about how DBD was better as a wild west, and when you break down the language carefully it basically amounted to "yes OP stuff is annoying to face, but it wasn't every game, and there were games where your OP stuff got to shine". Basically the medicine to getting dunked on was dunking on someone yourself... 😒
NGL... as post 6.1.0 baby, this sounds absolutely awful to me.
Well I think most people only miss the OP broken stuff for their side. Cant Imagine many Killers wanting old DHL or mettle back, as example.
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I'd prefer an addon rework into something like perks. Theyd still be addons but less "+10% x" and more perk-like effects.
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Ugh. The devs dont intend to ever Split survivor into SWF and solo. The Problem ist comms. The Problem always will be surviviors sharing Intel in a way thats not part of the Game.
Its like a dead Player in among us telling the other on discord who the imposter is.
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Years ago I played some, but i think I ddnt even get 50hours down. My tablet had no space and setting up on pc was tedious. I think the geisha was the newest back then. **checks wiki to see that season was around 2018** damn thats been a long ago.
I certainly did play mostly hunter and most of it 2v8. I think aside from interrupting survivors causing double damage, the survivors were plenty strong, irrc. I atleast remember there being some horribly obnoxious places for those priestess' portals.
I remember playing Ember, gamekeeper, jack and hastur ; the clown and michiko somehow didnt click for me. Cant remember how to tentacle tho. Hell Ember is kinda a nice starter killer and I'm really sad bhvr didnt just copy him for the knight.
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@PuddleOfBludd said:
Why is this the only game where people talk about thinking about other peoples enjoyment when you play?
how many games of call of duty have you decided “you know what I’m not gonna kill that person on the other team because they might’ve been killed too many times already and it’s probably not fun for them.” If the answer is more than zero, you’re lying.
Mortal Kombat? “ oh, I’ve been winning too many games, I think I’ll take it easy so the other person can have fun.” Yeah that’s not happening either.
Fortnite? “Oh man I don’t wanna be the one to kill that person and have them be the first one out. They’ve only been in the game for 30 seconds. What kind of fun are they having?” Come on, give me a break, nobody thinks that way and nobody plays that way.
but yet when it comes to this game, people seem to think that the opposing team is supposed to be mindful of your fun. It’s honestly ridiculous.
The best part that it's only expected of killers to be mindful of the other team's fun.
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For a 3k apparantly being a win it surely doesnt give a "win bonus" like a 4k.
Complaining about people wanting to 4k is like complaining about wanting to escape once the doors are open.
Its also funny how people are allowed to delay the disadvantageous EGC by 99ing the door but stopping the hatch from opening by the slug is frowned upon, such hypocrisy.
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PPeople still treating noed as if it teleported survivors into melee range?
Noed activating does not guarantee a hit or that hit actually benefitting from the double damage.
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Adding voicehat to survivor would instantly remove the mechanical differences between "solo" and "swf".
All that'd be left would be the survivors' own choices and agency and skill issues which the devs cant touch.
I dread the day people demand buffs to survivor because bad players perform worse than good players without being able to blame swf. I'll be the first to point the exact same thing applying to nurse, which sadly wont shut up the hypocrites.
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DDiscord for teamchat, proximity chat to insult the killer.
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Well, you used a truetalent vid, so by this forums logic your argument is invalid by default.
I wish this was a joke but this forum hates that guy for some reason that eludes me.
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SIIm always curious about how people call out some math fallacy then proceed to present survivors being able to draw with the killer.
Killer winrate + draw + survivor winrate = 1 doesnt exist in dbd. It's killrate + escape rate = 1... which only indirectly has anything to do with the win rates.
There's only one out of five outcomes of a trial in which no survivor wins. And thats the 4k.
- survivor A wins when A escapes
- survivor B wins when B escapes
- survivor C wins when C escapes
- survivor D wins when D escapes
- The killer wins if more survivors die than escape (3-4k)
BBut then people also get the following stuck in their head, even though its not enforced or hinted at ingame:
- "The survivor team" wins if there are more escapes than kills
- The "draw" happens on a 2k because kills equal escapes.
SSo now we have the problem that the killer win is in direct comparison to two different variables, the individual winrate and the team winrate. So which one of the two should be equal the killers?
IIf you go for an 50% average escape chance, the team wins ~31%, the killer wins ~31% and the rest is draws. But is it really fair for every survivor to have a ~1,6times higher chance to win than the killer?
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Counterpoint: make it harsher and make survivors unable to skip it.
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Conceptually no player should be able to evade the disconnect-penalty.
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@VantaNite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3826629#Comment_3826629
It's easier than you think, get one hook at the end and you can often lure them all in. There are dozens of video's of killers doing exactly that with more then a few perk's besides noed to further buff a killers endgame potential. Just heal before rushing the gate is just a copout to the point above. The killer's gonna do the best he can to stop that and isn't always possible.
What youre describing is the normal gameplay loop, If that works then its not an extra chance but a really bad misplay by the survs. They could just walk out the finish line but it seems a 4E is more important than just winning.
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Ugh.
It has always been because of the hatch.
"Last survivor could jump in" → "maximise time theres not just last survivor left"
"Egc starts at open doors" → "99' gates so egc doesnt start".
BBoth sides have tricks to delay triggering disadvantageous gamestates.
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I think challenges should just be permanently active without selecting any. Obviously the devs are free to tweak numbers. Like the first hook challenge needs 4 hooks, the second 5, and afterwards you need 6 for the bonus.
IiIirc borderlands does something like that.
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Alternative idea.
If all survivors mess up and end up incapacitated by being in struggle phase or downed (with no way to get up), they instantly randomly get mori'd or killed by the entity and the round ends.
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I'm more of a unapologetic killer main, but even i can see that it's unrealistic to balance around survivors being a full fledged team. Not even the game currently treats survivors as such (a dead survivor doesnt win or get rewarded when 3 others escape)
But we shouldn't make the balance such as 4 random headless chickens having an even fight with motivated Supaalf on Nurse. For the balance, we must consider both sides being "good players trying to win".
Gotta keep the solo-swf and killer-tier gaps in mind tho. Ideally, when all players are good and trying to win, the "power level" of "4 randos vs skull merchant" shouldnt lag too much behind of "4man swf vs nurse". (this isnt meant to suggest nurse nerfs)
Edit: the solo swf gap is mostly comms and player mindset. Adding comms to the game or mechanicas currently emulated by comms usage (chatwheel, radar, permanent survivor aura reading) may close the gap, but will warrant some killer compensatory buffs.
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As nurse is considered a special case....
Blight?
IIf survivors get to claim "survivor+comms+best players at using comms" as what "survivor" should be, i dont see why "killer" shouldnt be all at least at the level of the cutrent top 5.
Btw, unlike with survivor you can buff weaker killers without changing the stronger ones.
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IIdentity v has super agressive crows for survivors who havent done stuff in <90s if i remember correctly.
DDbd needs something similar.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3803710#Comment_3803710
It's asking for Devs toguaranteeat least two Survivorsalwayswin.This isn't true. A 50/50 kill rate would likely increase the number of 0ks over the current setup and increase survivor win rate, but there is no reason to presume that 2ks would somehow become common.
The average results over many matches (mean) is very different than what the average result of a match is (mode). Given the way the game is designed 2ks are, and likely always will be, the least common of the five possible game results.
And if Killer getsany less than a 3k, it's considered a loss for Killer by MMR, not a win.That's not true. If you're going strictly off of MMR, in a 2k you'd need to know which two survivors escaped and which two died. Depending their MMRs, you killer could either gain, lose, or stay even in the MMR.
Why do you all believe that Killers do not ever deserve to win whilealsobelieving that at least two Survivors should always and forever be handed wins without any effort or skill on their part at all?I'm fine with the current kill rate goal, I'd probably bump it down a few percent, but nothing major. However, this setup just isn't true. We can easily turn it around and ask (if we presume that we are using MMR as our defining win condition): why is it okay for survivors to lose 60% of the time while the killer should expect not only a win rate that exceeds 50%, but a win rate that exceeds both their loss rate and draw rate combined?
Why do we use win:loss for survivor but win:draw:loss for killers?
A 50% winrate for killers means a 50% loss rate for them.
A draw only happens when neither involved team reaches their goal. DBD is not "have more kills than escapes, thus a 2/2is a draw", because survivors arent scored as team (you still lose when 3 others escape).
DBD is killer wins on 3+ kills and each escaped survivor wins....
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Just make crows spawn on survivors when they havent done a goal relevant action in 60-80 seconds.
Identity V already does so iirc.
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Why is everyone treating survivors as a monolith capable of having a draw?
Nothing in the game treats them as a full fledged team, the sole escapee doesnt lose because 3 die and the sole dead guy doesnt win when the other 3 escape.
A 2k isnt a draw, its 2 survivors winning and the other 3 players in the trial losing.
IIdentity V atleast gives % bonus points for 3+ escapes as something to mark its survivors as a team.
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Oh silly billy, getting to throw a game without penalty is survivor privilege. Killers arent supposed to have that (according to survivors).
IIn every DC-penalty discussion I chuckle at the obvious survivor bias to remove the penalty for only survivors. Its funny because survivors would loathe if killers could chicken out like survivors can now. (Not to mention that escapes would become somewhat impossible as killers would legalky/rightfully rq once gates are powered or the first guy escapes.) But as advocators of 50:50 fairness/parity shouldnt we all agree to having both sides have the same options?
Alternatively, Remove hook suicides, maybe the most un-immersive change to just remove the death by failing the struggle phase skillchecks. Or add a cooldown to attempting a self unhook.(You'd keep the self unhook chance and shortened first phase if failing the unhook, bit you wouldnt be able to skip straight to dying)