RainehDaze
RainehDaze
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@IronKnight55 said:
So... you chased someone long enough for the other guy to finish 2 gens? Why didn't you just leave the guy?? What even is this thread???
Because at that point it didn't matter if I left the guy??? Maybe the other player would have been worse at the hold W game, but the actual match wasn't why I made the thread.
The "wow, that's a lot of time you can buy with unavoidable pallet drops and running around circular obstacles, exemplified by a barely-used map" part was.
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@Dogma_loki said:
Let's just squash the survivor conspiracy theories involving bringing maps and "tactical advantage" right here. Yes the RNG on maps is terrible, for both sides. When me and my friends bring a map offering its so we don't get Auto haven/MacMillian for the millionth time. BHVR's random map selection logarithm seems to be horribly broken and has been for years.
You can also bring in a green offering that kills any map offerings brought in by other players if it bothers you that much.
If Sacrificial Ward were yellow or something, maybe.
But it's as rare as any individual map offering, most of the time you think to play it the survivors don't play a bloody map offering anyway, it's consumed regardless if it doesn't do anything, pure RNG can overcome it, and it can be defeated by concerted map offerings.
What offerings should do is ban maps.
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@Mockingjay_S451 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/359390/and-this-is-why-slowdown-feels-obligatory
So you are saying a 3K is a loss on your part? This is half the problem. Killers think the only way to “win” is a 4K.
Sounds like you had a good game that was going well, got lots of hooks and some good chases. That’s a win in my book.
No, I'm saying a 2K followed by 2-3 minutes of just holding W through pallets exemplifies how much (Survivor) slowdown is built into a map and why slowdown is always the #1 perk category for Killers.
That this was a good game on my end is exactly why I had the time to spend doing this.
Also, I wanted fun games, which was why I dropped all slowdown. Lo and behold, I wound up in a game where the most memorable part is where there was no mindgame and minimal power usage. Great incentive. <_>
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@Mockingjay_S451 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304895#Comment_3304895
Yeah, I don’t even think the red bars are showing correctly as in my game I had the red bar but my friend and I were a duo and she said the red bar was showing on her and my ping looked fine when she checked. But for me it was really high. Deffo a server issue. Are you in the UK?
Yeah, I'm up in Scotland.
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@Mockingjay_S451 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304890#Comment_3304890
It only started Christmas Day for me, around 4pm GMT. Then yesterday on the 26th, matches were fine during the day but then it started again around 7pm GMT and never stopped. Tried a few games now today and 1 in 3 happening again. You can tell which games are going to have it as it takes forever to load in. But once in, unplayable. It actually lags so badly, it makes me sick to my stomach to move around so I just stand there until the killer DCs or kills me.
Yeah, really long loading times... I normally assume someone's playing on a PS4 or something and don't think about it. But after loading in, hi, yellow ping bars! And then excessive judder.
I hoped it'd go away if I targetted the red ping guy in game 2, but A) it was bad enough that tunnelling didn't remotely work anyway, and B) nope, it was still there after three people got out.
I hope this gets fixed or at least uh... officially noted. Because the game being unplayable is obviously not good.
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@Mockingjay_S451 said:
It’s still happening to me like 1 in 3 games. Making it impossible to build up pips as I’m losing one every match it happens in as it is unplayable. I’ve messaged the other people in the game after to ask if theirs was laggy with rubberbanding and they said yes it was.
Quite a few people in the DBD Discord have also said they have been having this in the UK for the last two days.
Mmm, I only logged in on Christmas Day itself, so it could've started earlier. I had some good matches a bit earlier in the night, but...
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@Sonzaishinai said:
What you told me is that you don't need slowdown at all for that match.
The only reason the gens got done by somebody mindlessly dropping pallets is cause you mindlessly kept going after them.
Having some kind of slowdown does feel needed vs equall survivors but your example really isn't good
I didn't need it for that match, true (but also, there wasn't much else to do at that point; I have two survivors, and a power that doesn't lend itself to shortcutting Lery's; what else am I gonna do but eat pallets? I could maybe have mindgamed some but that might take longer if I misplay).
But that wasn't what I was really getting at. It was just that in a situation where I couldn't definitely cut down on the chase time (and I did when I actually had space to bound), there was several minutes of chase time added with both of us just going from pallet to pallet.
So why does slowdown always seem necessary? Because the way maps are designed is bloody awful; info perks can obviously do a little bit, but chase perks are nearly garbage outside of specialised situations. Enduring would've actually been great there, but imagine I'd brought Bamboozle or Play With Your Food. And when you can have minutes of time on the map when there aren't good deadzones or misplays, of course at least one slowdown perk feels obligatory.
(also, I would like a game where I don't have slowdown but I also can't spend two minutes holding W between pallets, tbh; that's just tedium)
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I was playing some games about five hours ago and, uh... the ping was very bad. Stuttering every few seconds, jumping back to previous spots, etc.
I quit the first game after hooking one survivor, and 3/4 of the Survivors chimed in to complain about lag. About ten to fifteen minutes later I loaded into another game, with completely different Survivors aaaaaand... just as bad. And again, the Survivors able to take part in VC noted it as well (one was in their first game of the day and wondered if it was their internet).
Given that I was streaming my view at Twitch's data cap for non-partners the entire time without a hitch, and I've been able to do that comfortably for well over a year, I'm pretty sure something's up with the servers, or at least the European ones.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304731#Comment_3304731
Simple. Counterplay to DH is waiting it out. Counterplay to DS is waiting out the full 60 seconds to not get hit by it. If you fake an M1 and they DH early, they're exhausted. If you swing and whiff on purpose and they DH, they're exhausted. Killer has actual counterplay to DH, whereas there is none to DS beside just wait it out or eat the stun. Keep in mind that the exhaustion that DH causes prevents the player from using any other chase-extending exhaustion perks, like Lithe, 99 SB, or Balanced. In this regard, how is DH different than any other chase-extending exhaustion perk, and why are you making a special exception for DH?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304742#Comment_3304742
How is Dead Hard, which will only situationally give value by extending a chase, less balanced than, say, Sprint Burst, which gives constant value throughout the match in the form of speed boosts, as well as extending a chase if used mid-chase, or any other exhaustion perk that also extend a chase (without the requirement to have a pallet at the ready at the perfect distance with perfect timing to guarantee the DH use)?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304753#Comment_3304753
Give me a single example.
Because DH can still be used to skip powers, doesn't have a limiting factor that requires you to avoid just running straight to the nearest loop/pallet/window at full speed, and when you DO need it, good timing is always a third health state. Good Sprint Burst usage can lengthen a chase... but if you don't use it right away, that's limiting yourself. Balanced Landing needs a drop. Head On is locker shenanigans. Overcome is a really nice speed boost, but if you can't make use of it after getting whacked by knowing the map, it does nothing.
DH is basically a perfect escape if you can time it, and if you CAN triggers all sorts of cooldowns on the Killer end. That also makes it nastily counter things that might deal with SB or other ways of making up ground.
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@HugTheHag said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304812#Comment_3304812
I think they're maybe a bit too situational. Awakened Awareness can be really good, especially on indoor maps or if you're taking Agitation to be able to walk around a little bit. I've definitely been found through it a few times when I had sabo builds or just happened to be working where the chase ended.
Uniformingly bad is Wraith in my opinion. Only somewhat useful is Shadowborn I guess, but for wider pov I go for Monitor and Abuse because at least I get a nicer TR.
Every time I've taken Awakened Awareness (and usually on Wesker), I have been confronted with the idea that Survivors really hate being in my terror radius, let alone 20m. Taking Agitation might help walk 'em into it, but it's just "ok, nobody's around, I guess I'm a little more flashlight proof". It's basically discount Lightborn... xD
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@HugTheHag said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304754#Comment_3304754
Does it cancel after gates are opened ? I don't have Wesker so I never really gave the perk thought.
Maybe it could get an effect that after being injured, you are broken for 30s or something. Wouldn't be coherent with the name, but it wouldn't be the first perk like this and it would prevent heals mid chase, syptic agents and the like.
It lasts up to 30s after the gates are opened. But yes, it's an endgame perk that promptly goes away as soon as you get into true endgame, for... no apparent reason. And even if it didn't, it wouldn't be a great pick
(I also feel like Wesker's one of those fun examples of a Killer whose perks are almost uniformly bad: Superior Anatomy can't keep up with Survivor vaulting, has a CD, and requires you to be on their ass in the first place--i.e. too many balancing factors at once; Terminus borks itself nearly as soon as the gate opens AND forces broken at the weirdest time; and Awakened Awareness has a low enough range it requires suicidally altruistic Survivors to ever do anything... and on top of all this, none of those perks gel with his kit at all, I fluked into the adept)
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304787#Comment_3304787
It depends on which side you play the most to see guarantee 75sec blocking Gen on down is balance.
If you kicked 3 gens, if survivors are spread out on those 3gens, and if you can regularly get downs.
An expiry time or a limit to the gens it can affect makes more sense than nerfing the duration; if the issue is it can shut down all survivor progress, what we want is to limit its ability to multiply across gens, not its duration.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304611#Comment_3304611
Incap should go, completely. A perk should not have a gaps between 27sec to 120sec of Gen lost, where the 120sec applies to the weakest role.
Gens blocked for 15sec on down, thats it, that will equally affect both Solo & Swf.
The block should be 25s, but I agree with changing incapacitated to block. It should not be reverted to 15s baseline, that was unnoticeable enough even beforehand.
(Also, I thought CoB only applied on kick anyway?)
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@SmarulKusia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304287#Comment_3304287
Why is it such an ultimatum? There are literally perks and addons that aid in that. Perks and Addons are the balance and medium between the two worlds.
I never said M1 killers shouldn't exist, but if you actively choose to play a killer like that, and not equip something that will help you in chase - knowing fully well that it is your weakness.. That is literally entirely on you, as the player.
Because addons don't change loop potential, and having to use perks to address your fundamental inability to partake still leaves you behind EVERYONE ELSE. And most anti-loop perks are weak at best, can be ignored, or outright get disabled.
As hilarious as it can be to stack up on ways to just walk through pallets, that's not good gameplay or balanced compared to "I can do something at a loop AND bring other perks"
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304751#Comment_3304751
thats because they kept getting more options
if more slowdown is always the optimum choice no matter how much slowdown has been added, that also says a lot.
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@HugTheHag said:
If a perk only happens once, iy should at least have a notable effect. Especially if it's gotten through fair play and spread out hooks.
Endgame perks particularly. There's a reason Adrenaline is good and balanced. If it's a gamble whether it will happen at all, it's effect needs to be good.
Same with Blood Warden, No Way Out, and I really, really wish it was the same with Grim Embrace. That perk deserves a serious buff.
I kind of wonder the same about Terminus. Aside from Plague doing weird shenanigans, "people stay broken" is a bit... lacklustre. It's only good to prevent healing to full and coming back for a coordinated rescue before the gates are opened, and after they're opened (assuming someone has been hooked), that's still 4 minutes of time to rescue and it only works for 30s.
'Vaguely disincentivise 99ing' ain't great.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304741#Comment_3304741
there is not a single point in DbD's history where killers thought they didn't need slowdown
Whether that tells you more about the Killers or the map design is up for debate
But the amount of slowdown people want to bring does seem to have kept creeping gradually upwards.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304727#Comment_3304727
This would literally turn it into the single worst exhaustion perk in the game. Every other exhaustion perk can get you guaranteed value, except for arguably Smash Hit. Turning DH, which is already difficult to use with ping shenanigans, into a once-a-game thing would be ridiculous. DH is fine as it is, I wouldn't be opposed to the OP's suggestion, as it turns pallets into a 50/50 instead of a guaranteed escape for a survivor.
"This perk is hard to use" is not a balance argument.
You cannot balance an optional extra around the difficulty of using it 'correctly', because then the people who get good at using it are disproportionately rewarded: the perk they have is now completely broken, whilst it's useless for anyone who's bad with it. †
All you can do is look at how it performs once you get good enough, which in this case is a once a chase third health state, especially when the map favours getting to a pallet or a window. It's even worse if you accept the possibility of a reaction DH.
A perk that adds another health state and 15-30s or more of chase time when used competently, requiring the Killer to develop prescience in many cases, is not balanced if it can be used 9 times a match. At its most conservative, that's over two minutes of extra chase time. Without regression, that's enough for 1/4 of the total required gen time (and ignoring that for much of the match that 15s might by 45s of gen progress).
† This is also kind of the problem with Nurse, except her power is so fundamentally out of step with the rest of the game it's a forever long slog to work out how it COULD be made more balanced without destroying the character's entire feel and gimmick.
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I do love how Wesker's chase music is the single hammiest thing added to the game in any fashion.
After that, probably Spirit's. Although it is kind of counterintuitive to give the audio killer such a loud theme.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/359197/how-to-fix-tunneling
Not the worst ideas I've seen, to be honest. Balance is a bit all over the place, but I see what you're driving at.
I'd also add:
- Killers cannot use their powers while within a certain radius of a hooked survivor and remaining there for a few seconds. If a chase begins outside of this radius, entering this radius while in chase will not trigger this effect.
- Hook grabs removed completely.
- Kobes removed completely, and the relevant perks reworked.
Nothing that operates on an invincible bubble of screw powers around hooks will ever work, be balanced, or be a good idea. This is a game where chases can be blocked by obstacles you can see over because you're not literally gazing upon a survivor's backside; "if you go near a hooked survivor and a chase hasn't started you are now an M1 killer regardless" is a terrible idea. Plus being plain confusing and nonintuitive about radiuses like every other thing in this game.
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@VideoGameMage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302555#Comment_3302555
Yeah but it's like the second most picked survivor perk after dead hard. Windows was never quite this popular before.
Nah, Iron Will was busted. You can't have some sort of sound-based Killer, and rely on Killers having bad viewing angles when they are going round corners, and also have a perk that makes someone absolutely silent with no conditions beyond 'injured'. Especially not when the other ways to track (blood and scratches) are subject to weird RNG and map hiding at all times.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302095#Comment_3302095
This, right here, would be one of the most positive changes that DbD has ever or will ever see.
The problem is that man, it would be tricky to execute, as other games that have tried this realized.
You can't make the bots too good, otherwise a player DCing will actually make teams stronger at times. A bot capable of giving a 4000 hour killer a decent run is going to be hilarious against a 50 hour killer and could well hard-carry teams.
On the other hand, a weak bot might be worse than missing a player - STBFL stacks, Surge, Devour, PWYF, bodyblocking people in chase...yeah.
Still though, man it would be great.
What I'd probably like to see in conjunction is a simple change to the way DC penalties work. Rather than just going to get a drink, to make it decay, you'd need to play out a certain number of matches without DCing.
This is how most other games handle quitters.
of course, a weak bot still contributing to Killer perks would also seem like a good thing other than tactical DCs denying the usage of perks entirely. Especially the hook-count based perks.
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Tunnelling is always going to be caught in a situation of being the most effective way to get someone out of the game, and making the game take longer won't disincentivise it. Nerfing tunnelling won't disincentivise it (just make people more frustrated about doing it). Incentives to go chase someone else, or start a suboptimal chase in general rather than hanging around the hook, need to exist beyond a few really niche perks.
I don't think suggesting people stop tunnelling if that's how they get wins and just focus on having 'fun games' really works. Killers start a match in a stressful situation and it only gets more stressful if losing. Chases aren't a luxury to be enjoyed when there's three unharried Survivors on gens somewhere, and chases at this stage of matches are dominated by pallet availability anyway.
And with old BBQ gone, there's no real "well, at least I got my stacks" feeling of achievement somewhere. Hook states are an incomplete objective; it'd be like taking satisfaction in half completing gens. So 2-3 hook, 0k games don't even have a consolation prize to shoot for now. And, to boot, there's no reverse-hatch scenario where you can at least get something.
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I feel like a big contributor is also that a lot of the perks that added general slowdown or regression have been largely nerfed. Corrupt only buys time when the first chase takes forever; Ruin is even less likely to have any effect; Pain Resonance gives no information and therefore mostly becomes another 18s for some gen somewhere to pop.
Since the current regression combo is all about actively going out of your way to kick specific gens, and eruption (as maligned as it is) only gets any value at all on successful downs whilst CoB has no immediate effect and can be stopped with a tap, it's not actually hard to be in a situation where the gens can go faster even before perks than the old meta, 10s longer per gen or not. Even before the occasional presence of hyperfocus+stakeout and BNP.
And presumably there's less brand new Survivors, which influences things.
@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301024#Comment_3301024
RPD is such an underrated map for killer. Especially on blight. I have not lost a game on RPD yet.
I don't care how 'underrated' it might be, it's a twisty, obnoxious little cesspool that might as well be renamed "Corner Every 2 Metres". There's like four corridors of any length total, and since I DON'T play Mr. Pinball, trying to play anyone else with some sort of mobility feels like I've joined a game as an M1 Killer.
Two floor maps are a garbage abomination and should be burnt to the ground, too. "Our audio is completely two dimensional and have fun being nowhere near the stairs" is stupid. If we ever get a third one, stop making the game's entire audio totally flat. This isn't DOOM's 2.5D map layout.
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Nope, aside from plaything and pentimento doing their mid-game slowdown shuffle.
The changes made by boons to put totems in even more obvious places so that Killers can also squeeze in and get to them has never helped; the odds at least someone is running CoH in any given game are super high; and the time needed to get rid of them is comically low and require specific builds to even try and protect them (if they're not cleansed immediately).
Add that Ruin is now not only nerfed in how effective it is but self-deletes and the most common culprit is dead and buried... well, kind of dismal.
With the added bonus of every time I try to run multiple hexes, I seem to attract Survivors running that 'cleansing a hex is a massive repair speed boost' thing, to the point that I keep winding up down several perks whilst the other side is buffed by my even trying.
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@Ripley said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298010#Comment_3298010
I haven't got the achievement but survivors who do locker strat just put me off trying. It's another MMR thing. I can't be dealing with trying to play Myers against the average players who just above my paygrade.
There's the fallacy of survivorship bias (nothing to do with survivor/killer but only looking at successful Myers).
Exactly why I haven't even considered trying. So, I have to not only get my T3 up before the gens are done, and kill three of the survivors, I then have to get the jump on the fourth one before he goes into a locker? With a plain ol' 115 M1 killer, who can vault fast.
No idea what I'm meant to be doing to 'earn it' by the fourth kill if everyone adopted that attitude, since it comes down to the Survivor being either too dumb to work out what's going on or no lockers anywhere in the area (which isn't exactly common map gen).
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3300239#Comment_3300239
Minimal interaction playstyle is something that not a single player in DbD likes from what I recall.
That's why, but after all is a game choice for each player.
Thing is, would allowing more choices make for more meaningful interaction?
I highly doubt it. You'd just have the split between teams who go even further in on genrushing, or ones who have every second chance and healing option to make sure there's no real pressure. Killer tactics would remain unchanged unless they could constantly pick Nurse, in which case it all devolves into nurse/counter-nurse gameplay instead.
And then... well, why are people doing that? Because it's efficient. If you're trying to score points, guaranteed kills or hooks matter more than anything else. No point running slowdown when the effectiveness of slowdown is really contingent on rapidly getting downs faster than Survivors can target those gens, against a team with great communication.
Didn't stop that one Dredge player Otz uploaded a video of to youtube, but that was seriously impressive. And still dependent on sloppy being effective due to limited healing options (and the map's being favourable).
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Honestly, the 5s it takes to press escape and check if an offering is in play isn't enough of a headstart for the Survivor, usually. And if you're nowhere near the location, just slug surv #3 if possible and go over to check if they're hiding around there.
They're not all that useful or healthy but, well, brown. No shortage of brown add-ons for powers in my experience, they build into the hundreds without trying.
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How would having four medkits make things more interesting to watch, anyway? Really not seeing the connection here.
"Every survivor could bring a full suite of the best second chance perks and medkits and they're extremely practised using voice comms" would not make for an exciting viewing experience. I don't know why you've singled out, of all things, item limits as making it boring.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299538#Comment_3299538
Because you are playing a game with others and everyone is entitled to play the game and have a good experience.
Just being bad at the game is no excuse to deny someone the ability to even play the game by constantly tunnelling them off hook and that should be punished harshly. Being bad at the game is no excuse for tunnelling off hook
That everyone includes the Killer. Who, apparently, needs a laundry list of things they shouldn't do so 'everyone' has fun, no matter how hard it makes the game for them (and how multiple Survivors being the same or just plain bad luck on scratch marks/auras can lead you to the same person anyway).
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Dodge. It doesn't matter that I'm probably streaming my own perspective (I don't have TTV in my username or anything... or actually speak, so), the 'I might be streaming you to even more people and being as insulting as possible' potential tends to put me off before the game even starts. I'll just not deal with it and queue up again instead.
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@Seanzu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298999#Comment_3298999
I get blood points for wiggling, it's in my best interest to be carried to a hook, and it's an interesting ethical assessment, not carrying survivors to the hook is only denying them the chance of a minor reward or not. Especially in the given scenario from the OP where the supposed person is the last alive implying the other 3 are already dead.
So, we're weighting the ~1000 max BP you can get from being carried once if the hook is sufficiently distant but not distant enough to get free
vs
Potentially an achievement, and if this run is failed, the cost of two Iri addons (8000 BP minimum, ignoring all the other filler to have these come up).
From a purely economic perspective, it's a net negative (they have to spend another 8k BP) if you sit in the locker. From every other one, you're just timewasting.
Your argument has amounted to 'maybe I'll get 1k BP!' Really? You're going to sit in a locker for an hour over 1k BP? You could squeeze multiple games in there. You don't want someone else to maybe get an achievement or sense of satisfaction that much that you're willing to stop playing for an hour, and your justification is 'there's 1k BP in it for me in this game'?
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@Seanzu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298983#Comment_3298983
I already posted a picture of me getting tombstoned yesterday by a Myers, I had BPS (my swf friend had a flan) because I was doing the 50k BP challenge where was my leniency when he moried me at 8K lmao? Ima do as much as I can to get as much bp as I can, and guess what? They already had the achievement so idk why I'm supposed to just throw points away because achievement or something lol.
That's whataboutism. We're talking about a situation where you've already lost no matter what choice you make. You don't gain or lose any more BP based on what you do from this point.
The only thing that changes is if you get stabbed, or you get hooked. Myers may already have the achievement, but on the other hand he might not.
It's an interesting little ethical assessment, because your only option is whether you deny someone the chance to get a minor reward or not.
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@Seanzu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298885#Comment_3298885
Yea sounds like the killer should have just pulled me out, and I've never seen a Myers in this stand off stand directly in front of the locker they're always a little bit away and off to the side, idk what's so elaborate about this scenario lmao.
Just pull from the locker it isn't that deep 🥰
or
just accept the mori
I really don't see what you gain out of possibly denying someone an achievement when you can acknowledge you've already lost the game.
Like, it's a simple question: What. Do. You. Gain. Is there anything in it for you other than the idea that maybe you've stopped someone else from getting a little digital checkbox? You come out of the locker--you lose. You stay in the locker--you lose. You lose either way, so what's in it for you to drag it out five minutes, ten minutes, an entire hour, other than denying someone else a specific achievement?
If you lose either way and there's no point difference, what is there to defend.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298970#Comment_3298970
Sure, that could be the case in some instances but also part or getting good with killer is learning when to drop chase too. Plus I see the same people in game who every time I go against them they do exactly the same thing; chase, hook, camp, tunnel off hook... repeat.
There's probably a lot of overlap and blurry cases--the people who go into a game with an attitude of "I have a planned strategy to tunnel out this one person" and consciously execute it is probably way lower than the number who are on a spectrum that covers everything from 'this went badly and I can bring it back by focusing one person down' to 'panic and try to secure one kill'.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298958#Comment_3298958
You know, it would not be a necessary evil if there were not the lowest common denominator in the form of players who will intentionally tunnel someone out at 5 gens...
I am increasingly seeing a killer tactic of chasing the first survivor they find until they get a down, which they will do even if it takes a stupid amount of time... then they just hard camp that survivor and wait for the unhook so they can hard tunnel them off the hook even if they could easily get a hook trade.
This most definitely should be punished hard
chasing the first survivor until they get a down is, to be fair, also what happens when people start panicking. If a chase takes too long, by the time you've realised that (and especially if you've got a hit, which could still mean two more swings with excellent DH timing and looping to pallets) gens could be about to go or already going. Is breaking off the chase at that point a good idea? Well, if this is indicative, no, any other chase would take longer! Got to stick with it.
I don't tunnel off hook intentionally (I'm not going to waste time and the chance if I can't see a clue where the rescuer went though and the unhookee zooms into my vision though), but I can see how easily you slip into the first part of that.
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@Seanzu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298787#Comment_3298787
I might have DS, I may have head on, I may be far enough to wiggle and get hatch - but of course survivors have to instead hand the kill to killer or it's toxic, lol.
Killers always say it isn't on them to make the match fun for survivor so why is it on survivors to make it fun for killers?
if you've been in the locker for over a minute in this stand-off, you don't have DS†, and if you have head-on, why aren't you using it? You're constructing a very elaborate scenario here where the Michael is carefully out of head-on range this entire time and there are distant hooks.
As I said, unless the map position is very favourable, there is nothing to be gained from squatting in a locker for five minutes except to deny the mori. You have no reason to deny the mori except being petty, as this is an achievement that has a pretty massive factor of the Survivors playing along--it's really easy to get into a locker if you don't care about being stealthy as soon as the terror radius announces itself.
And people do this all the time even if there's no chance they're wiggling free from a hooking. It's not like there aren't videos of this build, and Survivors will jump in the shack lockers of all things. Or lockers right next to a hook. There is no chance of the Survivor winning in this situation except the Killer letting them, so why not let them get the mori? It's not like you get stabbed IRL. Killer might get the achievement, everyone goes to the next game. No ten minute staring contest.
† Also, this is against tombstone myers going for a 4k via stabbing. DS is even less of a factor.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298665#Comment_3298665
Ok so everyone starts running DS again and its even stronger now, and it totally will get used against killers who arent tunnelling because the weaker version that only worked once was constantly used against killers who werent trying to tunnel.
Survivors can't use it against any killer.
Survivors can't use it at all. Survivors can't force the activation condition. Killers have to work to make this perk trigger. Pay attention to the status indicators and you know who was pulled off the hook last. All you have to do is not pick them up, and the perk does nothing.
I have been hit by DS -once-, and it's not for lack of trying on the survivors' part. But after that first time, I remembered the perk's existence, and whenever I encounter the survivor that was unhooked last, I try to go for a different target. If they try to obstruct me, I make them take a nap.
To say that DS has counterplay is an understatement. In its current state, the killer has to either try really hard to make it pop, or fall for obvious bait. Either way, the killer is at fault and deserves a stun.
A level of facecamping meta to secure kills that you cant begin to imagine.
Considering my proposal is more or less a revert to what we had before 6.1, I can absolutely imagine. And it isn't particularly worse than what we have right now.
Besides, killers will threaten to facecamp over literally any change they don't like. It's kind of their beatstick to try and force the devs into doing what they want. I've grown kind of numb to the trantrum.
a return to everybody and their grandma running DS/Unbreakable/Dead Hard+1 because DS is buffed to be even more effective than before and the response is therefore 'slug' wouldn't be great, I don't think.
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@Seanzu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298418#Comment_3298418
you guys throw around words like hate far to easily, honestly why would I let a killer insta mori me who has just killed my entire team in the same cheap way. Either way they still get the kill whether I hop in a locker or not.
why wouldn't you?
What are you actually achieving by denying them the kill that way? "Hah, ######### you!" is a terrible reason to do something in a game, and it's at best petty. It's outright spiteful if you're willingly disregarding that they might be after the achievement (after all, I haven't tried to get it yet, so that'd be on my mind if I was playing Myers) and force them to choose between wasting their time or having to do this again to a different team
Seriously, unless there's a very strong chance that the hook layout will let them escape and find hatch (rarely the case), there is absolutely nothing a Survivor stands to gain from this situation except maybe ruining someone else's achievement. Kind of pointless.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298687#Comment_3298687
Mine only affects the immediacy of the current basekit BT
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298665#Comment_3298665
to be fair, I said perks.
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Still wondering why every suggestion to fix second chance perks trends straight to 'for an entire minute after they get off the hook, even a still-injured survivor has de facto three health states'. Like, yes, they might not be doing anything for this minute. That's true. But if they can buy time for the less-protected survivor to get away and then the other three survivors have a minute of safety? Well, that's way more effective.
The usage of anti-tunnel effects to distract and protect others rather than avoid tunnelling always exacerbates it. Because when you lose more time trying to not trigger them and go for someone else, that just engrains the mindset of 'take them and get it over with'.
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@SmarulKusia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3298008#Comment_3298008
Why is it bad-sport to not want to lose the game?
Think its poor sportsmanship to expect someone to throw their game and lose their MMR for someone else and their achievement.
Uh, because if Mikey is standing outside the locker you're in with infinite t3 and tombstone, the survivor is already dead. Unless the map spot they're in is really favourable to wriggling free, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by squatting in the locker indefinitely. It's bad sport because there is a chance that the Killer is going for the achievement for shanking four people in a single game--something that can't be done if they're forced to hook the last survivor.
Anyway, to answer the actual question: neither is holding the game hostage, but they're both being kind of stupid. OTOH, the Killer does have two iri addons in play whenever this happens and there's an achievement for it, so they at least have an incentive to do it (after all, you can't make infinite attempts because it hinges on those addons). Survivors that do it when there's no hope of escape (like in the shack when basement spawns there) are just being weird.
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People being slammed into objects that don't seem to be there is the inverse of Killer powers colliding with objects that aren't there. And playing twenty questions with what plant can be moved through and what's a solid obstacle.
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Maps. Particularly, getting maps really unsuited for who I'm playing when i choose to not lean in to slowdown, then have a terrible time all around.
Also, how the tiny FOV interacts with basically everything. Those weird zig-zagging door connections in RCPD, for instance. Or having to spin back and forth constantly because someone attached horse blinkers to me.
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the solution is to not run away at full speed making as much noise as possible
If you want to be sneaky, be sneaky.
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@OmniSkeptic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3296835#Comment_3296835
You can’t have it both ways. First you say “generators are useless then, nobody will do them”. Then you say “the exit gates will be camped, meaning gens can be done easily”. Pick a lane. If the killer camps exit, do gens. If he’s patrolling gens and the exit, great, that’s the intended effect (to add a quasi-generator). If he’s patrolling only gens, do the gate. That part is not the radical part.
No, you CAN perfectly well have it both ways.
If the killer doesn't obsessively check the powered gate, nobody has an incentive to do gens: just keep the killer occupied whilst the one guy hops on the gate and does it.
If the Killer does keep checking the gate, that's such an attention sink (especially if the gate is nowhere near uncompleted gens) that it buffs the survivors when someone dies.
In both cases, you're verging on making it easier for survivors to win the instant someone dies, and bypassing the normal mechanics of the game entirely.
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@OmniSkeptic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3296689#Comment_3296689
Read closer. Games would not end the moment someone dies or ragequits. Exit Gates would take a LOT longer to open and would function as quasi-generators. Endgame perks would need a rework but we're making a fundamental game design change so I'm not sure why one would expect nothing would need a rework. In fact, reworking a few endgame perks doesn't take nearly as much dev time as some alternative methods of stopping the snowball (like reworking the balance of all the various killers' powers, survivor perks, loops etc.)
No, I read it.
It instantly devalues working on gens. The time for 3 people to do multiple gens is objectively longer than the time for one person to sit on a gate even under your proposed logic. It becomes infinitely more sensible for Survivors to immediately drop gens and waste the Killer's time in such a scenario, especially if the map is unfavourable. And if the Killer keeps having to check a gate? Well, now they're free to do gens, because you just put a huge WE WIN button right on the edge of the map.
And reworking every perk that goes 'when the exit gates are powered' is not easier than introducing this ridiculous change.
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Games potentially ending as soon as someone dies or ragequits and eliminating the viability of every endgame perk or build in the game (aside from, basically, Adrenaline and Hope) to counter 'the Killer has an advantage in winning the fewer people are left' is not a good balance change.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3296598#Comment_3296598
Before its change, NOED devastated teams. It still does (to a lesser extent). Saying instadown anything isn’t a good comeback mechanic for killers is absurd.
One instadown after a long period without a down is not the same as NOED (also NOED's got a speed boost). It also doesn't affect all killers equally (Killers that rely on special hits of one sort or another either already HAVE an instadown or don't benefit except by being M1 killers). That makes it a bad thing to implement as a comeback mechanic.
@OmniSkeptic said:
The hatch mechanic is the anti-snowball mechanic but it only affects the last survivor. I would replace the hatch with the following:
Every time a survivor dies an exit gate becomes powered. If both gates are already powered, one gate becomes open. Time to manually open the exit gates is increased to take longer than a generator. Completing the 5 Generators now instantly opens both exit gates.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/HTB2172BBE8V/explanation-png.png
that is a terrible idea in just about every conceivable way. Someone DC's? Well, Killer had better not go the wrong way on a big map or think someone's actually on gens, otherwise everyone's out. Also every endgame effect has instantaneously been gutted.
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I think one of the obvious problems is that a comeback mechanic for Survivors would just be doing gens faster--that gets them closer to going out, and it's an obvious boost. Easy to take advantage of, easy to adjust the magnitude, could get to the point where finishing a chase before gens go isn't really on the table (although that won't help the 3-gen camping too much).
But what sort of comeback mechanic actually helps Killers? If they're losing that badly, the key thing is likely the opposite; too many gens have gone. An instadown probably wouldn't work--some powers mean it won't come into play at all, and many situations won't lend themselves to snowballing off the one hook (if the chase can be won). And built-in slowdown or regression would probably do nothing unless it blocked all gens... but that's so obvious that everyone would just go to ground until it's over.
If you want comeback mechanics, both sides need to benefit equally. But the game is asymmetrical, and an easily-used passive buff would work for Survivors, but is super strong, but what can actually benefit Killers as a whole and not just be ignored when they get into another chase?