NullSp3c
NullSp3c
About
- Username
- NullSp3c
- Joined
- Visits
- 2,533
- Last Active
Comments
-
@supersonic853 said:
I liked the idea on another post where legion can jump in a locker and come out of another locker as a different legion kinda like a teleport effect. Also why did they never think of giving him the ability to stealth as survivors like in the cinematic?
Its another good way to do it but they want to keep feral frenzy as it is.
Because people understood the trailer the wrong way(even tho devs couldve done it better). The trailer is only meant to justify the "darkness among us" title because they look very similar to survivors as they are the 100% survivor-like killer.
I agree that they could ve come with a better idea, but disguising as a survivor isnt opressive to swf and would increase the gap between them and solos.
-
I seriously dont understand why people complicate this topic so much, just asking for reworks when the solution is right in front of their eyes.
Just make the deep wound bar not go down within a fixed 20 meter radius instead of being terror radius based.
-
@BenZ0 said:
Thie changes are alright, I like you try to bring back old Legion possibly without problems. Idk for sure how that would be ingame but it sounds nice. I would like it. I just wonder, with this changes is Legion at 4.6 M/s at base or again a slow killer?
But overall well done, some ppl write here these changes are not good, Legion just needs a buff on this power and thats it but thats not true. You can buff FF as much as you want, he will always suck when you dont do something to shorten chases at downing. Legion NEED something to down survivors, not to injure. You understand that and made these changes and I appreciate that. Many ppl dont see that and think a killer without power is fine.
I have been posting ideas similar to these on the forums. With some number tweaks they should be fine.
I dont know why devs dont pick some of these that people create on the forums instead of keeping legion as they are now.
Its just not understandable imo.
-
@Spooky13 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/852714#Comment_852714
We know they don't playtest extensively. Take for example the Classic Ghostface Robes. The sleeve covers 25% of the screen for the killer, and the flaps are subject to all sorts of glitches. A single match would've caused the devs to have seen how badly the new robes work, and allow them to get a fix out. Same goes for perks like Mettle of Man existing for as long as they did. It was so ridiculous that it really only effected weaker killers, the ones who need the most help.
It doesn't take much time to test things and it is very worth it. I don't get why they don't do it but what can we do?
-
@Spooky13 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/852564#Comment_852564
Knowing the devs, I don't know. Don't forget Beast of Prey too.
I'm actually curious now about how do they create new things. Like, do they test it first? Or just do things on paper and launch it without much thought?
-
The interaction with nemesis would be solved by making the deep wound timer not reduce at a fixed 20 meters, including in chase. It's not that hard to program.
Also, there are ways to fixing them.
-
I've been called a camper because 3 swf decided to be too altruistic and be around the hooks. But i downed them with no pause so there was no confusion with patrolling the hook.
Bonus: 1 of those 3 was a adam that was in the basement and unhooked himself with deliverance when i was leaving the stairs and then called me tunneler because i downed him after.
-
@Monlyth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850714#Comment_850714
And yet red-ranked Legion mains exist, and are quite capable of getting 4Ks. If everyone stays injured, then they leave themselves vulnerable to getting downed in a single hit.
There are plenty of M1 killers whose powers don't allow them to end loops any faster, and yet they are quite capable of killing mid-high ranking survivors. Even if you remove Ghostface because he can sometimes hide his red stain, and remove Wraith because he has a tiny speed boost after uncloaking (Which doesn't help him get a down unless the survivor was already injured, by the way), you still have Plague and Myers, both of whom are also quite capable of winning chases and ending loops against even the best survivors.
Plague's power isn't lethal unless the survivors choose to make it lethal. It doesn't even slow them down like Deep Wounds does. Myers' power doesn't help him at all against a survivor that's already injured, even during EW3. So why does Legion's power need to be lethal? I'm perfectly happy with these changes as they are, and I find it ridiculous that people only dwell on the negatives here.
"(Which doesn't help him get a down unless the survivor was already injured, by the way)"
If you go through all killers like that, then only one shot killers have a lethal power...
But plague still has the potential to kill someone with corrupt purge and she has an error in design that being injured doesn't have downsides. That's NOT how she was intended to be countered, unlike Legion. Legion before had his power lethal for some reason, the same reason that makes them unviable now: progressing the game in his favour. The way that they did that originated exploits and then legion got to this state of being a meme in the community.
Your line of logic isn't even a line. I'm gonna do like that other guy and give you a simple and short answer and we'll end it here.
No, because legion is already too bad and these changes restrict him even more from builds and power.
Have a good day!
-
@DeanIcity said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850709#Comment_850709
It's not. My opinion was simplified to save time because I already can tell debating with you would be counter productive for me. Your "perspective" isn't logically sound and baffles me that you could even believe in the things you are saying.
Maybe you are being honest. Genuine with your assessment but I find it very hard to believe.
I think it's more likely that you are someone that doesn't really care much for the character and likes the fact that he has been crippled to this point.
Just to give you "some" insight on my perspective. I would hate to come off as completely "over-reactionairy".
Now I feel bad for wasting my time 😕
-
@Monlyth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850563#Comment_850563
May I see the source for that data? I looked on Google and looked on the wiki, but didn't find that information anywhere.
The Oni has a one-shot without a penalty, and can traverse the map better than Legion... after he spends the first few minutes looking for survivors and farming blood orbs from injuring them. Before then, he's just a normal M1 killer with all the standard stats, and a power that makes it easier for him to track injured survivors. After he finishes farming and pops Blood Fury for about 60 seconds, the Oni then goes back to being a normal M1 killer and needs to waste time farming blood all over again.
Compare that to the Legion, who can use their power immediately at the start of the game, doesn't need to waste time farming resources instead of chasing survivors or patrolling gens, and only has a 20 second cooldown time between uses of his Frenzy.
If Feral Frenzy only applied Deep Wounds and didn't injure the survivors, you could say that it has a "negative impact". But in addition to needing 12 seconds to mend themselves, the survivors (Unless they have a medkit) will also need to find another survivor, then they both have to waste ~16 seconds of their time to heal one health state. Therefore, getting a single hit with FF will waste, by default, at least 28 seconds of one survivors' time. And since the healer also needs to stop what they're doing to heal their friend, it's more like wasting 44 seconds of one survivor's time.
If you were to hit all 4 survivors with FF, they would each waste 12 seconds Mending, then they would each waste 32 seconds healing each other. If you manage to get 4 chain hits within 44 seconds while using FF (Which certainly isn't impossible in a normal game), then you actually gain time over the survivors. And that's not even considering the time it would take the survivors to group up for healing.
You have to remember that time normally isn't on the killer's side. If the killer never actually starts getting kills, then the survivors will eventually finish the last gen and escape, no matter how many times you injure them and they stop to heal. That's true for all killers, not just Legion. So saying his power has a "negative impact" seems like a moot point when any killers' powers will have a "negative impact" if you never actually get kills with them.
Legion's power makes it easy for him to find survivors, get first hits, and force them to either waste lots of precious time mending and healing instead of doing gens, or leave themselves vulnerable to getting downed. Reducing the mend time by 3 seconds is not going to make him useless, especially not when FF got so many buffs to its speed.
That is the perfect scenario in the low ranks. Middle-high ranked survivors know how to simply ignore deep wounds when they need to, know not to heal vs Legion. Most of the maps have enough pallets to you to chase someone until the game ends and they do nothing but dropping them.
The oni doesn't need that much time to stack his power. 1 hit gives him half of his bar (it can happen in the worst scenario at when the 1st gen is popped because he couldn't find anyone AND than can also happen to legion), has no penalty on using his power and can one shot everyone at will. I'm watching monto's stream and he is saying that this killer is better than billy which i agree after watching 15+ games of his.
Legion can make survivors waste a little bit of time but he also needs to hit multiple survivors to do what you're saying. To hit multiple survivors you need to waste your own time going after them and if something goes wrong then goes your power and pressure down the road with it.
Hitting 4 survivors is unrealistic between rank 8 and 1 and even above that you sometimes hit 3 survivors at best. Ofc there are exceptions but i think you get the point.
I don't remember how i got the info that legion's fatigue is 2.7 seconds, but i believe it was on the Q&A about the patch 2.7.0 when they changed legion and they explained why they increased the duration from 3 to 4 seconds that still doesn't make sense.
Anyways, legion needs better numbers to chain hits and his power must be lethal. There are ways to do that and i think that the devs are working on something about legion and this is not a change that there is to stay as a final hit on legion (I THINK) peanits told me roughly 2 weeks ago that they were in early development on some changes but nothing confirmed and that we shouldn't create hopes and stakes.
All other killers have a way that helps them in chase without add-ons by any means. Even ghostface and wraith have, respectively, red stain hiding (that is pretty dope) and a burst of movement speed to cut some loops that would've been otherwise impossible to cut.
So many buffs is 2 meters, what's your point?
Idk about your "buffs". 🤔
-
@Monlyth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850358#Comment_850358
Honestly, having done the math, I don't know if you gain distance or not if you use FF to traverse the map, because I can't find any sources on how fast Legion moves during his fatigue animation. It's noticeably faster than the Nurse's movespeed during her fatigue and the Hillbilly's movespeed during his chainsaw cooldown, but I can't find a single source for the actual hard number.
That being said, you're really overreacting if you honestly believe that FF will be useless, just because it doesn't interact with a handful of perks anymore. It's not like you can't use other perks to replace them. Might I suggest Monitor and Abuse? It makes it easier to get first hits on survivors, and it increases the range of your Killer Instinct detection once you get the first hit in FF.
You can score a lot of hits and get a lot of chains now with FF that you previously couldn't, either because your vault speed was too slow or your movement speed was too slow.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/850425#Comment_850425
Again, compared to most other M1 killers, Legion doesn't benefit that much from the effect of STBFL, because survivors often won't heal against him. It's the same reason you don't see many Plagues running STBFL, even though they usually rely on M1 to get downs. The reduced attack cooldown only helps you if you need to get multiple M1 hits in a very short time frame.
If you're up against survivors who don't heal, Thanatophobia slows them down and they're vulnerable to getting hooked if you find them. If you're up against survivors who do heal, then they waste a lot of time healing instead of doing gens, buying more time for you to chain hits with FF, or just get hooks. Either way, you win.
If the killer is following you and waiting for you to drop dead instead of just hitting you and getting it over with, then they're throwing the game. If you're upset by the fact that the killer is dicking around and wasting time with you instead of putting you on the hook, then that's on you.
And again, Beast of Prey only works when you're in a chase. The moment you break the chase, you lose the benefit of BoP. And last time I checked, Deep Wounds won't tick down if you're in a chase, even if the Killer has no Terror Radius.
Legion moves at 2.7 ms when fatiguing.
Simply walking ->4.6*14=64.4m
Feral frenzy-> 5.2*10+2.7*4= 62.8 m
So, even with the buff, legion gains more distance by simply walking...
And the oni has a oneshot without penalty and can traverse the map even better than legion. Seems fair.
EDIT: Also, the impact of your hits is negative compared to the time that you take to apply deep wounds. Deep wounds takes 3 seconds less to be "cleansed" and you need roughly the same time in feral frenzy to hit more people. SO it is a nerf and this isn't add-on related.
-
@Almo said:
The goal was not to nerf Legion. We decided the overall benefits were worth it, and the Legion effect was small. This game is large and complex; it's hard to change anything without affecting something else. So it's always a cost/benefit analysis.
Then why don't you guys give legion something extra to compensate for that "no intention to nerf legion"?
The buffs that you gave him are nowhere near to the 2 nerfs that you gave to their direct power. Decreasing the cooldown from 4 to 3 seconds and/or increasing the feral frenzy speed to 5.4 m/s would be something that would make (almost) everyone feel better about the killer.
-
Nurse mains, join us legion mains in the forgotten killers' dark well.
I don't like to play as or against nurse now because those changes made me sad. Nurse got the legion treatment: Power made the most unfun thing ever, useless add-ons (only 4 add-ons work on legion imo) and you can get bullied by survivors if you don't sweat. Even sweating is very hard to not get bullied.
And nurse can still be a good killer, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that she is very boring.
BTW what is that site that you used to get stats?
-
@FireHazard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/835196#Comment_835196
That seems too similar to Furtive Chase though...
I mean it could work but if we're talking originality than it's almost the same as Furtive Chase, except Furtive Chase relies on obsession hooks (Least it's supposed to...) while this Insidious suggestion relies on generators being done like Fire Up!
Makes the perk a non camping perk, furtive chase sucks and being similar to fire up doesnt seem bad for me. There are not those many generator token based perks and this one seems just right for it.
-
Making them oblivious will make deep wounds reduce in chase and survivors are on a timer, a more unfun legion than before and braindead. I dont think that that is a good idea.
-
Why not make it token based and for each generator completed your terror radius is permanently reduced by X meters/%. If needed, an additional X meters/% when all generators are completed.
Very bad at the start but you start to shroud yourself and have a very little terror radius.
-
@newduls said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/832110#Comment_832110
again, it hasn't made legion unplayable, nor is their power worthless. There is just only 1 way to play them right now, but it does work. Are their counters to it? yes all killers are counterable. BHVR has shown this is their desire, that is why they nerfed nurse.
Its apparent they want all killers to have a hard counter play. This isn't a bad design, its not a competitive design, but it isn't a competitive game.
I know that every killer should have counterplay and downsides, but the gap between feral frenzy's upsides and downsides is so huge that makes no sense. Also, to make it fun to play against you need to have counterplay and interactive mechanics.
-
@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/832169#Comment_832169
I hope it's another multi-mode Killer like Doctor was.
That would be cool and there are theories that he can come back in time but i'm not that sure about it. I think that things coming back was only an animation to make it more epic.
If you want to talk more about it, make it on discord so we don't get out of the discussion.
-
@NuclearBurrito said:
The magnitude of the fatigue reduction is a bit too high (or the base fatigue is too low for a similar reason).
Having a practically free down after getting a 3-4 stab is fine, however the issue is that you can do the following:
- Stab someone with Frenzy
- Catch up with Frenzy
- 2.3 second fatigue
- 7.475 second chase later and he's downed.
This is extremely fast, easy and refreshes the Frenzy bar.
For a Killer that's supposed to be best against a group this is too much lethality while outside of his strengths.
If this was all the Killer had then that would be fine, the clown for example can get similar numbers. However the issue is that this Killer is supposed to be extremely effective against Grouped up Survivors in particular, so having it be also super effective against isolated targets is a bit too much.
I'd suggest having more scaling on the speed or duration and take away some of the scaling on the fatigue and initial speed.
Specifically I'd suggest 16 seconds for the extended power duration and 5.6 M/S for the extended speed but 0.5 reduced fatigue and 5.2 M/S initial speed.
That's a 9.6 meter initial effective range and a 25.6 meter extended effective range. By comparison the current legion is a 10 meter effective range.
In other words if you see someone with Killer Instinct then you can definitely reach them for sure so long as you have a straight shot at them (baring TR manipulation perks/addons of course).
The range you have currently is 19.6 extended range btw.
Off topic* What do you think about the new killer's teaser?
-
@NuclearBurrito said:
The magnitude of the fatigue reduction is a bit too high (or the base fatigue is too low for a similar reason).
Having a practically free down after getting a 3-4 stab is fine, however the issue is that you can do the following:
- Stab someone with Frenzy
- Catch up with Frenzy
- 2.3 second fatigue
- 7.475 second chase later and he's downed.
This is extremely fast, easy and refreshes the Frenzy bar.
For a Killer that's supposed to be best against a group this is too much lethality while outside of his strengths.
If this was all the Killer had then that would be fine, the clown for example can get similar numbers. However the issue is that this Killer is supposed to be extremely effective against Grouped up Survivors in particular, so having it be also super effective against isolated targets is a bit too much.
I'd suggest having more scaling on the speed or duration and take away some of the scaling on the fatigue and initial speed.
Specifically I'd suggest 16 seconds for the extended power duration and 5.6 M/S for the extended speed but 0.5 reduced fatigue and 5.2 M/S initial speed.
That's a 9.6 meter initial effective range and a 25.6 meter extended effective range. By comparison the current legion is a 10 meter effective range.
In other words if you see someone with Killer Instinct then you can definitely reach them for sure so long as you have a straight shot at them (baring TR manipulation perks/addons of course).
The range you have currently is 19.6 extended range btw.
Thanks a lot for the feedback! I knew it would be helpful. Some of the numbers that i've put there (the fatigue reduction, for example) were simply to make people understand better the general idea behind his rework.
I'll change them.
-
@newduls said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/831975#Comment_831975
it isn't bad design. Calling it bad design because you don't like it doesn't make it bad design. Legion was always intended to be a target switching killer. Killers exploited his first version by Moonwalking to drop the chase so that DW would kick in and they could down people super fast. Or by using franks mix tape to stay on 1 target and down them. Again, this was NEVER how legion was meant to be played. KI was meant to get killers to target EVERYONE, so they'd all be injured.
I consistently 3 and 4k with legion at R1 against R1. You just don't want to adapt to the play style that works for legion, instead you want to play the way old legion was played.
The legion we have now is perfectly playable at R1 using the playstyle I have described, liking it or not, or thinking its fun or not, doesn't change that its playable.
@NullSp3c said:
I've made a cool list about legion's power.
These are the downsides:
- Doesn't work to down survivors.
- To chase.
- To get information far away.
- Against spreaded survivors.
- Has a huge penalty.
- Is slow so some loops can be loopable when using feral frenzy.
- A stun takes you out.
- A missed hit takes you out.
- Hitting someone twice makes nothing and drops the power.
- Doesn't do anything against injured or exposed survivors.
- Doesn't help you patrol generators because you go further by just walking.
- Has a huge punishment in the end.
- You can't see blood pools.
- You can't see scratch marks.
- Makes your screen blurred so you easily miss a survivor when fatiguing.
- Partially deafens you.
- Has a 24 second cooldown.
- Your vision is turned down a little making it harder to see survivors.
- And there are white lines in the screen that partially limit your vision, to seem that you go fast (and in reallity you are not going).
- Feels bad to use due to their uselessness and sluggishness.
- You won't use it in the end game because you can't down people, it will be just used in very specific situations.
- Isn't flexible, needs a full power bar to be activated.
- When you miss a hit you lose all the pressure that you had.
- Hitting someone while out of feral frenzy takes 50% of the bar.
- Killer instinct doesn't let you know the distance.
No orange auras on killer instinct for no reason(already changed).- Mending can be completely ignored by survivors.
- Mending is annoying to play against
These are the upsides:
- Hit multiple survivors when they are VERY close to each other and you don't miss or are stunned or hit someone twice.
- You see survivors that are around you.
- Make them mend so they waste15 seconds of their time.
- You can have a first hit, but it is not easy.
As you can see it is worth to use their power 100% *BEING VERY VERY SARCASTIC
But don't be afraid, you have 5% more movement speed now while walking normally, seems a good trade.
Just watch this list I made.
-
@newduls said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/831975#Comment_831975
it isn't bad design. Calling it bad design because you don't like it doesn't make it bad design. Legion was always intended to be a target switching killer. Killers exploited his first version by Moonwalking to drop the chase so that DW would kick in and they could down people super fast. Or by using franks mix tape to stay on 1 target and down them. Again, this was NEVER how legion was meant to be played. KI was meant to get killers to target EVERYONE, so they'd all be injured.
I consistently 3 and 4k with legion at R1 against R1. You just don't want to adapt to the play style that works for legion, instead you want to play the way old legion was played.
The legion we have now is perfectly playable at R1 using the playstyle I have described, liking it or not, or thinking its fun or not, doesn't change that its playable.
The problem with legion now is that they have stall power and don't have a way to finish survivors. Being a 4.6 killer that only goes after a survivor and m1s is really bad design and can be looped without being able to do anything about it.
Behaviour already made it clear that legion has a bad design and most of the people in the forum agree with it. Some even say that he has no power, and i agree.
He isn't capable of making everyone injured. what you described is how legion is now technically, not how in reallity he works. Only stupid survivors don't run away from a legion that stabbed their friend and hear a terror radius, sometimes people don't even waste time bothering about deep wounds.
I don't want to make it personal as you did, because i played old legion as the new one is SUPPOSED to be played. Even then, legion is poorly designed their power is the most restricted in game and the less rewarding. It's pure math and logic, no subjectiveness involved.
I have more than 600 hours on legion and 400 of them are on the new one so how am i not adapting to it?
It's a matter of seeing the power and thinking about it. It's the only power that has 0 help in chases besides people not cleansing against plague which is a flaw on her design. People are supposed to cleanse but being at 1 hit down isn't threatening enough to do so.
As you see, every killer should be helped in chases with their power, or to map travel, or to track. Legion can only track when they already have someone in their screen so it is already a downside.
-
@newduls said:
Legion is actually in a pretty good spot right now.
Play with ruin/thana/enduring/pgtw.
focus on gen defense and keeping everyone injured, you'll have 10 to 20 min games with consistent 3 and 4ks.
Survivors don't like to play against legion because when played right he doesn't stick to chases so they can't really loop him and waste time. You're constantly switching targets and you become very unpredictable, which puts the survivors in situations where they get caught out more often.
What you described is purely bad design. Even if that is how legion is better now (even then being very bad) that's not what he was designed for. He was supposed to be a killer that rushes down survivor and is fast, the opposite that he is now.
So, basically, they are badly designed now and devs are still in VERY EARLY development to change them. This just proves my point.
3 or 4 kills with legion or you are out of red and purple ranks, or the survivors that you get are really bad and dont understand the killer.
Their power is so exploitable by survivors that i always pray to face a legion so i get a free win. Also it's not just power that counts when you are playing, this game is supposed to be fun and what you described is being unfun for survivors and imo legion is very unfun to play now.
-
@Milo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/831942#Comment_831942
Even two hits give you a 1,6 fatigue time. EVEN with 4.4 m/s killer (that can first catch up with FF) would be really good
It's 1.4 and i said that the numbers are only examples and you should ignore the eaxt values, they are only there to make a better understanding of the idea itself. The exact value could be 0.5,0.4,0.6 idk I'm not a dev so i can't test it. They can take the general idea and change one thing or another and then put the numbers on it.
-
@Milo said:
Am i the only one that sees the "reduced fatigue for each survivor" being broken?
This is a way for you to get rewarded for chaining hits and chaining 4 hits isn't that easy and also brings you lethality that legion completely lacks.
Maybe reduce the mending time from 15 to 10 in exchanges for this. But with the correct values this would fit legion perfectly imo.
It would only be broken if legion was a 4.6 m/s killer that he isn't in this rework.
It's a matter of testing, but the idea itself isn't broken.
-
They said they were in early delevopment of legion changes in another discussion of mine but not to have any hopes for now because nothing is final and confirmed. Also, they are listening to the community when changing legion, @Peanits said that we had pretty good ideas in the forum that were passed to the team to take into consideration.
Light shines again xD
-
I would like to see your opinion about this, as you are a math lover. Maybe your help would make some good values. I don't like the numbers without testing but you have a good understanding of how things work in this game.
-
@BenZ0 said:
Yeah would be nice, but how I said, the general Idea is really cool, just abit more benefit for the frenzy itself, I made a own rework and I put in something like you have for a duration after getting your frenzy stun a faster movmentspeed as base, so from 4,4 M/s up to 4,5 M/s after you hit someone with frenzy.
I made it now, go there and check it out.
Also, you don't need to increase the speed if you reduce the fatigue duration, that seems overkill to me.
-
Ok, I'll make EXAMPLE numbers bellow the power description that shouldn't be taken with more consideration than the general idea.
-
@AChaoticKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/831763#Comment_831763
ok i didn't catch that part about the reduced fatigue thats a good idea however i think the majority of the community will hate it if legion can just keep hitting you with his power until you get downed because that was extremely annoying and took no skill to do. I still dont think that he should ever go back to 4.4m/s tho since getting 3-4 survivors with frenzy requires some luck which would make the speed nerf meaningless they could also just go to a pallet and loop it like normal if they are injured already and know that you are going after them.
Old legion took no skill because they had their power when it was 25% filled up, could vault pallets normally and had no penalties. Now you have for missing hits and have to wait a bigger time to do so.
Also, injured or exposed survivors start with a reduced bar which means less hits to take you down. If legion is after you, run to pallets they are safe until legion destroys it, not the same to windows but the killer needs to kill.
Its very easy to chain hits with the changes that i propose. They get faster when killer instinct activates and the power last longer. Being able to vault windows and pallets on top of that seems really good to me but you dont need and are NOT intended to hit all 4 with the same power, that would be just annoying. You can benefit from a hit or two and it already helps in a chase.
-
@BenZ0 said:
Numbers are missing, I dont know how fast the legion sprints in FF, how fast they vault pallets or windows and most likely, how long the stun gets for each hitting survivor etc.
I like your though about bringing back old Legion, I have the same thoughts. But if you didnt know, the old Legion was weak, but fun. So with your idea the Legion is even weaker because you get stunned even longer as a slow movemntspeed killer. You should get abit more benefits after hitting a survivor, faster ferzy speed is not enough. But still cool ideas, I like that.
My idea is clear, why is everyone reading it wrong?
"Reduces the time of the extended recovery cooldown, for each survivor hit." - what i've written.
This isn't increasing, this is decreasing.
"faster ferzy speed is not enough." - what you said.
"The power gauge drains at less speed." - this is what i said as another buff to chain hits.
Now that i've explained it better, what do you think?
-
@AChaoticKiller said:
yea i get where your going with this but he was actually worse to play as a 4.4m/s killer during his release than he is now because while his power gets him free hits it does not help down survivors so decreasing him to base movement speed will ultimately make him worse. The devs actually did good with his rework imo its just that legions design sucks since the mending timer is so easy to exploit and being injured is not threatening when the killer cant benefit from it and is basically a m1 killer.
if you want to make a legion suggestion its not his power that needs to be looked at but the deep wounds timer, addons, ect.
"his power gets him free hits it does not help down survivors so decreasing him to base movement speed will ultimately make him worse."
The power can reduce the deep wound timer of the survivor, you have a reduced fatigue for each survivor hit so it gives a bigger reward for doing your job as a killer that is supposed to spread hits. Also, you even have 2 ways of downing someone with this: by reducing the mend timer to 0 or hit multiple survivors and then face VERY short fatigue and down them with the basic attack.
I will disagree with you when you say the rework they did was something related to good. No fun for both sides and still a very ######### straightforward killer. The power hurts him more than helps, even if you don't do any mistakes using it.
He is a 4.4 with this change that i propose, yes, but also you have a reduced fatigue that REALLY makes up for it and even compensates. You did your thing, now get rewarded for it.
I agree that their add-ons suck and deep wounds, thats why i proposed a change to deep wounds and add-ons should be reworked according to these changes. I don't like numbers without testing tho.
Thx for the feedback. :)
EDIT: Forgot to mention that it is very easier to chain hits with these changes by making them faster, vault pallets and the power lasting longer when hitting someone without deep wounds.
-
Legion
-
@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827696#Comment_827696
I was saying making it truly objective about Legion having the most downsides of any killer would be to pit them against every others killers list ?.
I agree they do need some of those downsides changed. I dont have a clue myself how to though but i hope they get some love soon.
I honestly thought Legion was going to be a killer who could change who they were in game originally I loved the idea of a possible power for each char you changed too. Probably could have been a bit too much but it would have been fun.
Anyhoo it is quite off topic you are right but it's been really fun chatting. It's nice to agree and disagree with a civilised conversation. Have a nice rest of your day and gl in the fog.
That version of legion would be really good yeah. I didnt play dbd when they got released, i started playing in january so i didnt have that feeling. But now that i know dbd and all the killer's lores etc. it would be fun to make them that way. But it isn't good against SWF.
It was good to talk to you too, even tho we didn't get into any conclusion xD
It was fun chatting, have a nice day.
-
@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827646#Comment_827646
But what other downsides does each of those killer have?
One list isnt objective as I said as its only only looking at one aspect. Now comparing them to all the killers each with a list with the same mindset is. Legion can be weak in the current state there is no doubt but they are not the weakest of all killers and that alone says those weaker must have more downsides in comparrisson.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827632#Comment_827632
Do you think that then reflects the opinion of the 1 million+ userbase of DBD?
I don't understand what you mean by "One list isnt objective as I said as its only only looking at one aspect."
All of the items of the list are a downside to their power AND they are not meant to all be fixed, that would make something that i would feel bad to play AS because it owuld be nothing but broken.
The thing is the difference between the upsides and downsides. They should REALLY close the gap between both of them. Maybe be left with 6 or 7 out of all of these idk, it depends on the choice that the devs make to change.
TL;DR: They need to close the gap between the downsides and upsides of their power more than any other killer.
-
@NitpickDropkick said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827408#Comment_827408
again, really great feedback thank you. You make great points and there is only a couple issues where I can say I disagree.
(on borrowed time) If you unhook someone close to a no terror radius killer it is your fault to do that move.
You are right, but in the context of the game I believe its is too abusible. In a perfect world I would go with your method all the way, but considering the amount of toxic players and people willing to facecamp, I just feel that survivors need this perk to work every time. I will say though, that it is incredibly annoying to have a BT survivor block you or worse, unhook someone in your face while they are "sheilded" by BT. I wish there was a fix for all these issues but I cant think of anything that could work.
(on distortion)It still ruins the purpose. The purpose of this perk is entirely to deceive the killer making wrong decisions, by going "undercover". It's not what being stealthy means. The tokens buff that you propose is gucci to make this perk good/playable.
Its a weird balance, because I knew it needed more tokens, but for most killer builds 8 tokens means that you will never see that player's aura. The power swing from useless to OP is dramatic and im not sure the solution lies in the number of tokens. I dont know, ill think about this some more.
All in all, great points. I will definitely be making a 2.0 at some point and you've given me a lot to think about. Thanks again!
For borrowed time, i think you're right but maybe reduce the radius. If they are camping that hard, they need to be close, like 16 meters or something close to it because it can also be exploited by survivors. I'm a killer main and I hate campers and i never camp unless toxic SWF against my poor legion (that can only walk on the mud and break their back when vaulting) xD
For distortion, i think that you should give it a way to gain tokens. I mean, the perk is to push deceiving play so it can be something like stake, giving it a risk to gain tokens. It also seems to kinda counter the purpose, but it feels right at the same time because it is giving it a risk that doesn't interfere with it's job of deceiving the killer.
EDIT: About borrowed time - Facecamping/Camping is a game design flaw and no perks should be a bandaid to fix a flaw.
No problem, I liked to help.
-
@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827590#Comment_827590
That's the thing you could make a similar list for almost all killers with downsides and some will not apply to Legion.
Some m1 killers on will have almost all the same downsides on your list and one thing Legion has that they don't is a guaranteed a hit at times to injure someone let alone the fact they can do it to multiple at once.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827594#Comment_827594
Legions hit with power has a purpose. You get close enough you should always injure them and sometimes more survivors while they mend it's not much but they also have to lose you and it's all time off gens.
It does then turn them into the same as most m1 killers but the difference is those killers don't have the advantage of that first hit in the first place.
M1 killers have some of the problems stated above but all of them have something that helps them a little in chase, EVEN if the survivor is injured which is the most important part. Also, this means that legion has no uniqueness. He is an m1 killer and nothing more than that.
Some places that aren't loopable can turn loopable when you are using feral frenzy because of how slow your power is walking and vaulting (you can't break pallets in feral frenzy) and you can miss hits and then have a chance to lose the survivor plus the amount of distance that you lose because of fatigue or hitboxes happen, or autoaim happens, or lag happens or you get stunned.
It's the opposite of what people think, he can't do anything to down survivors and injuring them is a pain with a lot of downsides if you do a single mistake that can cost you the game by using the thing that is supposed to make you win the game.
Other killers have the advantage of that first and second hit without all that much penalty.
Either way, we are getting off topic from this discussion.
-
@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827558#Comment_827558
But if their are those that enjoy playing them so their opinion does infact differ. You simply stated what you don't find fun.
If someone wants to play Legion and finds it fun running around with them and the challenge of hitting multiple people over and over and can do well with them killing what makes their opinion less valid than yours?
That is why ones persons opinion of fun is always subjective. Not everyone likes to play all killers but that doesn't mean if some dislikes the mechanics of Hag she is not fun for many others.
Yeah, that is what makes a good and fun killer. If you are just hitting people without reason and not killing them, then why DBD and not another game? That is kind of unrealistic imo but it's still a possibility, who knows these days?
But by making sense it doesn't seem an option. Just to make it clear, I respect every opinion, but this seems very strange to go play dbd to simply hit people without caring about downing them.
-
@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827561#Comment_827561
- To get information far away.
- Very few powers do this
- Against spreaded survivors.
- Very few powers help with spread out survivors that can't be avoided.
Stun takes them out
Stun takes all killers our of their power.
Can't be sued to pressure gens
Few killers powers can do this which arent avoidable and most have to walk there also.
Is you want more look at your list and apply it to each killers powers.
The thing is not about these things don't apply to other killers. The thing is that ALL of these things apply to a single killer that gives almost no reward and that is something objectively not fun.
All killers have downsides AKA counterplay but legion doesn't have counterplay, he has overkills with every move that he does related to feral frenzy.
No exhageration, I tried to test if legion was better with or without using the power and guess what... i had a better time killing survivors without the power. You might not believe me and i respect that, but this is my experience with that.
-
@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827531#Comment_827531
The list isn't as objective as you think as most of what you said on the list can apply to most of the other killers powers.
Please give me examples.
-
@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827515#Comment_827515
I don't disagree that most of the community agree that they need something done to make them better but I disagree that most think they are unfun. Fun is afterall subjective and not everyone goes out to kill all 4 every game. I myself get the most enjoyment from engaging chases.
The change to Nurse has lowered her map pressure that's a given but is that loss of map pressure making her as bad as stated. If her map pressure is still greater than most if not all the other (bar Billy) then the main question is how has it affected her ability to kill. How much has this change reduced her lethality which is what the stats are needed for as good players didnt want her gutted just made slightly below what she was.
I think that the matter of fun with legion isn't subjective and let me explain myself.
If you like a killer that has more than 15 punishments in their power for little reward, has a giant cooldown and does nothing for you in chases so you are simply a m1 killer you might as well play clown.
Clown has no gen patrol, no map pressure and no tracking when you don't have a target BUT he has chase potential and is an m1 killer. It is preferable to be a m1 killer with something in chase rather than nothing like legion.
Ofc you can like to spread hits and accomplish absolutely nothing with it but the joy of hitting someone to see the animation or something that you like. But to progress the game on your favor you have nothing. You just stall and m1 to death which can be easily countered in purple and red ranks. Which means that clown should be better.
What makes a killer unique is their power, that's the main reason why you choose one. I, personally, love more their looks than their "power" as it is now.
-
@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827504#Comment_827504
I would say that most of the community agrees Legion is in a bad spot.
I agree that most of the Nurse feedback has been kneejerk, however, her map pressure has been destroyed, that much is not an opinion.
@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827400#Comment_827400
Ok..your clearly not reading or are not very intuitive on how ds or legion works if you wont even acknowledge what I'm saying and merely claiming it's to fit a narrative when it's purely factual..
@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827480#Comment_827480
That's the good thing about an opinion everyone is allowed to have one and yours isn't wrong as it's personal.
All I was saying is someone stating a personal opinion as something the whole playerbase thinks is wrong as their is no way to prove that.
I don't think that what @immortalls96 said is subjective. The list and the motives that i showed you prove the opposite. It is very objective and if there are people still thinking that legion has potential as they are right now are ignorant about the legion's purpose, gameplay and situations and risk-reward relation with their power. No offense intended when i said "ignorant"!
-
@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827446#Comment_827446
That was always the issue with Legion as I have stated many times due to the nature of their power and why I never liked the idea of them whatsoever.
For a killer to basically be a survivor in movement but faster their power was always going to be extremely hard to balance.
It's why I would prefer them to be reworked with a Freddy style makeover as right now I can't see how they become stronger or their power gets lethality without it being unfun to verse as good players rarely miss when in frenzy and can spread the hits well.
Their power can be split in two parts in the same button. Like...
By pressing the button, the power is balanced around chase. They run faster and have some mechanics that help them in chase, and then, when they apply deep wounds on a survivor, those stats and mechanics get changed/buff to make chaining hits more easy. This is like a prototype of a idea, it's a base structure to change them basically. Stats and mechanics are up to the devs but i think that they should be a 4.4ms 24 terror radius killer power dependant.
When i started to understand more about dbd i had the same thoughts as you that legion cann't be a balanced killer that easily. The thing about spreading hits and having a single power is very hard to manage. If they want to keep the chainging hits thing they should buff the current status of feral frenzy and add another button that helps only in chase.
Still, it is very hard
-
@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827229#Comment_827229
Again that is just taking the users that ask these questions which is mainly from here. What number are those? Are they the same Twitter users on the forum? Without any of the data it's purely subjective.
There is also no data to see how they are performing and one of the devs stated not long ago the kill/ratio hasn't changed mich with them. I understand you don't like the change but that is soley your opinion along with a tiny amount of hours voicing it. Thete will be more of course by the same could be said for those that don't mind or like the change as those who want to complain always shout the loudest.
DS can be removed from the game. You can eat it or slug for 60s. Both ways work and it's a choice which one you choose. You are just seeing what can't be done and ignoring what can be to fit your viewpoint.
Again you are only seeing what you want to see with one sides changes and ignoring all the ones to the other.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827234#Comment_827234
What you just stated there was unless you have good muscle memory I.E take the time to learn and be good with them you won't do well then you won't do well. Isn't that how it should be? Should players who aren't willing to learn really be good with a killer?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827274#Comment_827274
They do listen to feedback as I said. The Nurse feedback is being taking into consideration but these changes aren't as simple to see flaws in as one perk change as most complaints are about fun and how clunky she feels but that alone is subjective to the player.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827325#Comment_827325
The same counter argument applies for what data there is to show she is no longer performing and that most users dont find her fun.
Yes I don't have the data and never claimed too I simply pointed out the argument some of the posters here are using cant be used as a reflection of the whole userbase's thoughts when stating she is garbage now or the players dont find her fun as thats an opinion.
Its all subjective to what we see and why I said they devs are collating data and that takes time.
I never once stated all posts are rants. There is a lot of good constructive feedback from a lot of users which is good for the devs.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827345#Comment_827345
So because you personally dislike them then no one can enjoy playing them?
There is a user who posted a few above yours that mains legion who states they are not horrible is thier or my opinion not worth as much as yours?
I'd argue that is what those who state all players can see they are now horrible are the ones doing dismissive and yes a jaded viewpoint as they beleive their opinion is shared by all.
Legion needs some love and is prefer a total rework personally. Always remember a killer who could vault windows and pallets was one of the most asked for by the community over the years. That is a great example of what the community believes would be good doesnt always translate well in game.
The ceiling is so low, but so low. The power doesn't benefit you in any way whatsoever, it just injures people.
"They need to waste their time mending"
Yeah, but you need to waste your time running after them like a slug + the cooldown and 1 of the survivors doesn't mend because you will chase them and try to m1 them to death.
My point is that you can do with legion what you can do with every other killer. Their power isn't lethal so doesn't help you in chases, so unlike spirit, you have no skill measure on chases. No gen patrol, so unlike demogorgon, spirit, nurse, etc. you don't have skill measure on gen patrol. Can't travel the map with it, no tracking with it if you don't know where someone is, so unlike hag, trapper, plague if you already vomited someone at the start of the match, ghostface because of stealth, etc. you have 0 skill measure on that.
Basically, it's just muscle memory and you don't need to make hard decisions which are the main reason that you can say "i'm good at this specific killer and i love them for that". With legion now you just need to know the distance. Yes, you need that too with nurse, but you also need to know if you use the second blink, waste a charge and be at risk of having a bigger fatigue for nothing; if you should double blink travel the map faster to hit a survivor on the generator or should just walk there and save the blinks to down the survivor(s).
To legion there is nothing more to that, you press that button and have a gut feeling if you can get to that survivor to injure them. If they are already injured, well... 14 seconds for nothing and you have a chance to miss the survivor. If that survivor is healthy, you can fail the hit, get stunned or double hit the guy you have already hitted so you do absolutely nothing and get a penalty. Even if you hit that healthy survivor, they need to mend... or not because you will need to follow them after that and they don't bother to mend.
Even if you leave them, they can be in your terror radius doing a gen and not caring even a little about deep wounds because they won't go down.
This is the sad truth :/
-
@NitpickDropkick said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/821110#Comment_821110
Thank you for your incredibly well thought out reply, I wanted constructive critisim and you came though swinging. Very well said on all points.
I think that Hex Totems should be time based and not generator based
I did consider this but I wondered if I would be shutting down possible survivor options by taking the ability to draw out totems away from them. Its tricky as I would bet 1.5-2 min would be wayy too long if we were to go this route. I regularly see the first 2 gens pop before the first chase is over. Hard to say forsure, ill have to think about this. All in all, i would be happy with either suggestion with some number fine tuning.
Instead of putting them(survivors that self-escape a bear trap) in the dying state, i would propose the deep wound state.
This could work, but remember I only want them in the dying state for a couple seconds. There is this extremely annoying event when someone gets trapped, they hit that 25% chance on the first try and run away, the bonus salt in the wound is that if they were already injured there is no penalty. Deep wounds is nice but i dont think its enough. Maybe a strong hindrance penalty instead of either?
I think that the (hillbilliy's)wild sensitivity should stay because it is VERY VERY hard to control and even more to master.
I knew i would be lowering the skill ceiling, I just hate how this feels so disconnected from what im doing. Like if there was a random rhythm mini-game to get the chainsaw revved it would technically increase the skill cap, but it would feel out of place. I dont know I just hate it as it is right now. you're probably right
This(limitless teleport hag) feels overkill because the other buff you propose is already a very big buff
I agree, it might be too much.
Everyone complains about prayer beads bracelet because there is almost 0 counterplay
My mistake, I don't think I was clear enough and this is a misunderstanding. The sound I want to remove is the sound the other players outside of the terror radius hear, not the wooshing sound the victim hears when the spirit is close. I agree the prayer beads need to be reworked.
For the other change, I want to say that removing the groaning detection from spirit will kill her.
I dont think this would kill her, you basically already have to put up with this when you chase a healthy survivor or a survivor with iron will.
The way I read this, this(bottle limit) is a nerf and clown needs everything but nerfs.
Sure, but that other buff I gave him was pretty extreme, probably too powerful. Just to be clear I am only proposing this bottle limitation when the addon that gives you the exposed effect on direct hit is used. If you havent tried it just take the exposed addon and the +2 bottles addon and its literally impossible to counter. This is terribly unfun for the survivors on par with the similar huntress addon.
Survivors should be rewarded by making the huntress miss the hatches and she should be punished when missing hatchets.
Fair enough, My thinking is that she is punished because she just becomes an m1 killer, but this might just make her too powerful.
Everything should have counterplay in PvP online games and this(impossible overcharge) doesn't seem like it.
I hear ya, but hitting the skillcheck isn't counterplay, its just a flat out negation of that perk. I think your idea could work, not sure, id have to think some more.
Unnerving presence should always be showing.
I don't want to hide the perk from survivors, its just that right now it acts as an advance warning for survivors that you are now in the terror radius. Maybe just keep the debuff visible in the hud regardless of terror radius?
I think that adrenaline should stay the way it is
Maybe, but this always seems to be a "rich-get-richer" mechanic that is very popular.
I recently experienced of how frustrating this(no hook auras) perk can be
Absolutely, I also fell victim to this once, but I thought it was a clever little trick that barely gets time to shine. All the killer would have to do is take note of the nearest hook before hand. Its just another option to end the overreliance on DS
The objective of using borrowed time is to make a safe rescue, but should have some counter from some killers imo.
Im all for adding counterplay, But a clever ghostface or wraith can end up just kicking a player when they are down, and making another player feel like they wasted a perk slot.
The purpose of distortion is about not giving the killer information. This change seems counterintuitive.
The killer is now getting a "you are getting no information" warning rather than just not seeing anything and wondering whats going on. Its still not helping him much since there is nothing he can do except suffer through it, but at least he will know why his perks aren't working
Shouldn't it(the weight change of WGLF) be the opposite?
No, I intended for this to be a perk for people who intend to block hooks and to give them a significant bonus to stopping the killer in their tracks. I will admit this it is lacking and probably wouldn't see any play as is.
Also, for this effect there is a very much better perk called lightweight that should have 25% OR 50% reduced running speed.
that does make perfect sense
Thank you so much for the well spoken points you've made here. You're a saint for taking so much of your time to discuss my little list. Best!
No problem for giving feedback. You were also dedicated to this list and you have a really good general idea about this game that i feel that is worth commenting. And very good ideas to change the game, in general.
I think that Hex Totems should be time based and not generator based
I did consider this but I wondered if I would be shutting down possible survivor options by taking the ability to draw out totems away from them. Its tricky as I would bet 1.5-2 min would be wayy too long if we were to go this route. I regularly see the first 2 gens pop before the first chase is over. Hard to say forsure, ill have to think about this. All in all, i would be happy with either suggestion with some number fine tuning.
In my personal experience, survivors destroy the totem in the first 2 minutes of the game, I only play at red ranks (not that I want to play at red ranks, but this community punishes too much the people who play for fun only and don't want to think about the game) and people are smart so they can find the totem really easy and fast. But I think that this is a matter of testing the time.
Instead of putting them(survivors that self-escape a bear trap) in the dying state, i would propose the deep wound state.
This could work, but remember I only want them in the dying state for a couple seconds. There is this extremely annoying event when someone gets trapped, they hit that 25% chance on the first try and run away, the bonus salt in the wound is that if they were already injured there is no penalty. Deep wounds is nice but i dont think its enough. Maybe a strong hindrance penalty instead of either?
It can be so that if the survivor is already injured, it makes them hindered for 60 seconds.
I think that the (hillbilliy's)wild sensitivity should stay because it is VERY VERY hard to control and even more to master.
I knew i would be lowering the skill ceiling, I just hate how this feels so disconnected from what im doing. Like if there was a random rhythm mini-game to get the chainsaw revved it would technically increase the skill cap, but it would feel out of place. I dont know I just hate it as it is right now. you're probably right
Imo, the most balanced killer in the game is hillbilly. Is fun for both sides and has a cycle of counterplay between the survivor and the killer. I wouldn't touch him even by a little.
Everyone complains about prayer beads bracelet because there is almost 0 counterplay
My mistake, I don't think I was clear enough and this is a misunderstanding. The sound I want to remove is the sound the other players outside of the terror radius hear, not the wooshing sound the victim hears when the spirit is close. I agree the prayer beads need to be reworked.
I don't know if we are talking about the same thing, but the wooshing that i think you mentioned you only hear it when the spirit starts using the phasing; you are outside of the husk's terror radius, the one that she leaves behind and she is close to you while invisible. Prayer beads removes this completely, that is what i think you propose.
For the other change, I want to say that removing the groaning detection from spirit will kill her.
I dont think this would kill her, you basically already have to put up with this when you chase a healthy survivor or a survivor with iron will.
Iron will is a complete counter to spirit that shouldn't be a thing and all spirit players hate (making it unfun). A healthy survivor sometimes doesn't know where the spirit comes from due to her small terror radius, granting a free hit. People while healthy have a tendency to be A LOT less careful than while injured.
You need to have a counterplay to survivors, this completely removes it because survivors can remove their scratch marks, no blood pools shown and no groaning with what you propose. What you mentioned that is left for her doesn't make her viable at all imo.
The way I read this, this(bottle limit) is a nerf and clown needs everything but nerfs.
Sure, but that other buff I gave him was pretty extreme, probably too powerful. Just to be clear I am only proposing this bottle limitation when the addon that gives you the exposed effect on direct hit is used. If you havent tried it just take the exposed addon and the +2 bottles addon and its literally impossible to counter. This is terribly unfun for the survivors on par with the similar huntress addon.
I suggest to put that number up from 3 to 4, after all, it is a pink add-on and you must make up for it.
Survivors should be rewarded by making the huntress miss the hatches and she should be punished when missing hatchets.
Fair enough, My thinking is that she is punished because she just becomes an m1 killer, but this might just make her too powerful.
She has 5 chances to hit a hatchet at minimum. Also, that change removes the purpose of reloading hatchets.
Everything should have counterplay in PvP online games and this(impossible overcharge) doesn't seem like it.
I hear ya, but hitting the skillcheck isn't counterplay, its just a flat out negation of that perk. I think your idea could work, not sure, id have to think some more.
I, personally, am horrible at "tremendously difficult" skillchecks. Making it half the space would make the per usable at least 5 to 6 times per match, depending on how much you kick gens. That results in a total 50%-60% gen reduction, if not more. Impossible skillchecks doctor smiling xD
Unnerving presence should always be showing.
I don't want to hide the perk from survivors, its just that right now it acts as an advance warning for survivors that you are now in the terror radius. Maybe just keep the debuff visible in the hud regardless of terror radius?
Now that i rethink about it, doesn't seem bad the change that you propose.
I recently experienced of how frustrating this(no hook auras) perk can be
Absolutely, I also fell victim to this once, but I thought it was a clever little trick that barely gets time to shine. All the killer would have to do is take note of the nearest hook before hand. Its just another option to end the overreliance on DS
I know what your intention is, but it doesn't feel like this is the best way to procceed. Making a perk less meta because there is another one even better in 80% of the cases.
The objective of using borrowed time is to make a safe rescue, but should have some counter from some killers imo.
Im all for adding counterplay, But a clever ghostface or wraith can end up just kicking a player when they are down, and making another player feel like they wasted a perk slot.
I am a defendor of the idea that every perk should have a counter or a bad situation. If you unhook someone close to a no terror radius killer it is your fault to do that move.
The purpose of distortion is about not giving the killer information. This change seems counterintuitive.
The killer is now getting a "you are getting no information" warning rather than just not seeing anything and wondering whats going on. Its still not helping him much since there is nothing he can do except suffer through it, but at least he will know why his perks aren't working
It still ruins the purpose. The purpose of this perk is entirely to deceive the killer making wrong decisions, by going "undercover". It's not what being stealthy means. The tokens buff that you propose is gucci to make this perk good/playable.
Shouldn't it(the weight change of WGLF) be the opposite?
No, I intended for this to be a perk for people who intend to block hooks and to give them a significant bonus to stopping the killer in their tracks. I will admit this it is lacking and probably wouldn't see any play as is.
I know what kind of playstyle that you are pushing with this, but you need to give something to partially compensate for this debuff. Its almost like no mither. Either way, how would you make the tier 1 and 2 of this perk? More noise or less noise?
All the other changes are REALLY good, but some of these make it off-road. You have some knowledge about how devs change things so you have capacity to change things the right way.
-
@twistedmonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/827166#Comment_827166
That's highly subjective and I would like to see the data you have that shows Legion is horrible for all the users who play them as otherwise it's just an opinion.
DS while still strong can be removed from the game entirely and it does it's job both as an anti tunnel perk and a time waster as slugging and chasing another means one other survivor if off gens to pick them up. It's understandable for 3nduring not yo work with DS as making it an anti tunnel perk that did it's job too well.
The only issue with DS is at end game which needs looked at.
@NullSp3c said:
I've made a cool list about legion's power.
These are the downsides:
- Doesn't work to down survivors.
- To chase.
- To get information far away.
- Against spreaded survivors.
- Has a huge penalty.
- Is slow so some loops can be loopable when using feral frenzy.
- A stun takes you out.
- A missed hit takes you out.
- Hitting someone twice makes nothing and drops the power.
- Doesn't do anything against injured or exposed survivors.
- Doesn't help you patrol generators because you go further by just walking.
- Has a huge punishment in the end.
- You can't see blood pools.
- You can't see scratch marks.
- Makes your screen blurred so you easily miss a survivor when fatiguing.
- Partially deafens you.
- Has a 24 second cooldown.
- Your vision is turned down a little making it harder to see survivors.
- And there are white lines in the screen that partially limit your vision, to seem that you go fast (and in reallity you are not going).
- Feels bad to use due to their uselessness and sluggishness.
- You won't use it in the end game because you can't down people, it will be just used in very specific situations.
- Isn't flexible, needs a full power bar to be activated.
- When you miss a hit you lose all the pressure that you had.
- Hitting someone while out of feral frenzy takes 50% of the bar.
- Killer instinct doesn't let you know the distance.
- No orange auras on killer instinct for no reason.
- Mending can be completely ignored by survivors.
- Mending is annoying to play against
These are the upsides:
- Hit multiple survivors when they are VERY close to each other and you don't miss or are stunned or hit someone twice.
- You see survivors that are around you.
- Make them mend so they waste15 seconds of their time.
- You can have a first hit, but it is not easy.
As you can see it is worth to use their power 100% *BEING VERY VERY SARCASTIC
But don't be afraid, you have 5% more movement speed now while walking normally, seems a good trade.
Just watch this list i made. You can take conclusion with this.
If some legion players have a good kill ratio, is because they know how to m1 well, or the survivors they faced suck, etc.
Basically there is nothing that can make you say "I'm a good legion player" atm besides having a muscle memory of the distance of your power.
-
If it is like when legion got changed and they say that they will monitor to see if they are doing good or not you might as well forget about it and move forward.
-
@TuckzysGayMeng said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/823294#Comment_823294
Neither do insta down’s and mori’s. You know what survivor mains do with this info!? They suck it up and keep playing.
I agree with moris having almost no counterplay. But instadowns?!
All instadowns in this game have a kind of counterplay.
Trapper add-on: Watch your step or let someone free you from a trap which isn't possible 80% of the time. Anyways you should watch the floor.
Clown add-on: You can dodge the bottle as you want.
Huntress add-on: Dodge the hatchets.
Ghostface and Michael's stalk: Stay aware of your surroundings and when you are exposed try to hide or run to a pallet.
Michael's Tombstone add-ons (if you consider it an instadown): Get in a locker or don't let him stalk. He takes almost the entire match to stalk to evil within 3 with any of those add-ons.
NOED: Cleanse all totems.
Devour Hope: Destroy the totem or unhook people near to the killer(not recommendable).
Hillbilly: Play smart in chases. Bait him to use his chainsaw to hit a solid object that is not yourself. Same for Leatherface.
Make Your choice: Or unhook the survivor within 32 meters from the killer, or the perk is on cooldown, or you can hide until it stops. The perk even has a bad rank up, being tier 3 worse that tier 1.
Iron Maiden: Pls...
Rancor: You know that the killer has that perk since the first generator is done. Just hide and play really sneaky when all generators are done and the perk has no effect, it actually hurts the killer a lot.
Haunted Grounds: If there is no hex:perk that you can tell from the start of the game, don't cleanse hex totems, if there are two lit up. OR you can cleanse and make sure the killer isn't chasing anyone, just play stealthy until it's end. Now the killer is playing with 3 perks.
Pig's Traps: Remove them. They don't tick down 70% of the game and you have 3 minutes to take them off, so there is no problem.
I think I didn't miss any instadown.
As you can see, there is ALWAYS counterplay to an instadown.
-
@lilbitofliah said:
I know I know, "Ugh, another newbie complaining about not being good". Here me out.
This game is severely unbalanced right now and I don't know why this hasn't be addressed yet. It seems that the game has been unbalanced for years now judging by old forums and complaints made by others. Now, yes, I'm new and I don't know all the ropes yet. I'm not here to whine over not winning. I'm here to be level-headed and provide enough proof to show that there's more to this unbalance mechanics than just being bad.
First off, all of the game's unbalance-ness is rooted in unbalanced match-making. As I've already said, I'm new. I just bought the game and played for the first time and have a total of 10 hours on the game. Before anyone clicks off because "that's definitely not enough time to be making opinions on the game mechanics!!!!", just listen. I have 10 hours on the game. Just 10. Meaning my survivor rank is currently 17 and my killer rank is 19. How is the match-making unbalanced? I've been paired up with survivors and killers who are rank 10 and up (or is it considered below?) One time I had a survivor on my team who was rank 8. I don't know if they were paired up with anyone else on my team but I doubt it because they were the last to join the match after we've all been waiting for a few minutes. I believe it was my third or fourth match where I was paired up with a rank 12 killer while I was still rank 20.
This unbalanced match-making causes a whole new slew of unbalanced problems. I've read the forums, guides, and tips from higher ranked players. I've seen the youtube gameplay videos. And I'm here to tell you that those are not helpful when you're a newbie going up against people with hundreds, if not thousands, of hours dedicated to the game. This means that no matter what I do, I'm always losing because the killers are OP against us newbie survivors who are still learning the game or the survivors are OP against us newbie killers who are too slow to get anyone.
"How about you just git gud, newbie?!" How many I supposed to git gud when I don't have a fair chance to practice against people my own skill level? The very first time I played as killer, I got paired up with a bunch of rank 12's or so (two of which were partnered I believe while the other two were separate) and they completed all the gens in like 3 minutes. I didn't even hit a single person that round let alone anyone hooked. How is that fair? How am I supposed to practice when I can't even get a chance to play properly?
Also, I've heard higher ranked players say that killers are always OP for newbies no matter what rank anyone is, the game is more balanced when you're around the 12-8 rank, and the survivors are OP when you're 7 and up. However, like I said, I've seen youtube game play videos by higher ranked people and more times than not the killer ends up getting at least 3 out of the 4 survivors. And that doesn't seem balanced to me. "Well, the survivors' role is to get killed. That's how the game works. You're not supposed to escape" <-- yes that was an actual quote made by a higher ranked player. I don't know if they were trolling or not but if they honestly believe that, then the game is even worse because no one wants to be cannon fodder. The whole point of the game is to work together and escape. What fun is the game if you're role in the group is to sacrifice yourself so only one person can escape at the end?
And another thing, the wait times for killer are INSANE! When I queue up as survivor I'm in a game like 2 minutes later. When I queue up as killer, I'm waiting for 25 minutes minutes. Yes, I do mean that literally. And it's every time too, not just a one-time thing. I've actually pulled up a timer on my phone and timed how long I've waited for a game. The shortest so far has been 18 minutes.
Bonus discussion/idea: I've had a lot of trouble with players DC. One time 2 of my teammates DC'ed after being downed once (not even hooked yet) and we still had 4 generators to complete. And then I got hooked and the killer camped me so my teammate couldn't rescue me and I ended up dying. This makes the killer definitely too OP no matter what. I don't know why the game devs haven't implemented something to counter that yet like maybe for each DC survivor, the amount of gens needed to be repaired to open the gates is reduced by 1. Or maybe each DC survivor adds a significant speed bonus to healing, cleansing, and repairing.
Long story short: this game is too unbalanced and is a waste of money. I want a refund.
You seem to have a very good game sense for a person that only has 10 hours in the game.
I just want you to know that between rank 7 and 1 you can get 3-4 kills in these conditions, so you don't get the wrong idea:
1st- Survivors are too bad for their rank, the so called "potatoes". Yes, there is people that are too bad for their rank but because being a survivor you can get carried by your teammates by doing almost nothing.
2nd- The killer is very good at the killer that he is playing.
3rd- When the hex:ruin totem isn't broken in the first 2 minutes of the game and you play with only 3 perks. I know that hex:ruin isn't a must to all killers, but is a really good choice in most of them. I, personally, don't use it.
4th- All survivors commited a mistake at the wrong time.
I may be forgetting some...
But my point is do not judge the gameplay at red ranks based on youtube videos because they are highlights. They basically do 10 games trying the same thing and then put 1 or 2 of those that they did good.
Also, some of them are really good, but being really good doesn't always give you the 3-4 kills because the survivors skillcap is higher than most killers.
-
The following list are the changes that i don't agree with and i'll do my best to give them tweaks/remove them with good arguments, according to my experience ofc. You seem to have very good ideas tho.
The changes that I will propose are counting with the other changes that you made.
Enough talking, let's start...
TOTEMS
Killer can only bring one totem perk per game(I think it might be too strong to have multiple hex totems hidden until the first generator is active)
Totems are only revealed upon first generator completion and hex totems are revealed upon second generator completion (all totems are revealed after the first generator, but the correct hex-linked totem is only lit and revealed upon second generator’s completion. The hex totem can be cleansed after the first generator but the survivor wont know if its a dull or hex totem until the second generator).
I think that Hex Totems should be time based and not generator based. So, no exact number, but around 1.5 and 2.5 minutes into the game, a dull totem becomes lit with a hex perk that you have at random. The perks still have the effect from the very beggining of the game, this is just to make the "30 seconds ruin explosion" not a thing anymore, also slows down the game more.
Furthermore, the killer can use any hex: perks as they want. If there are no dull totems on the map, then hex perks will have an animation so everyone knows that the hex perks in the game are no longer having an effect when the 1.5-2.5 minute mark is reached.
TRAPPER
If a survivor frees themselves (no help from another survivor) from a trap they will be put into the dying state with an effect similar to inner strength where after 8 seconds they are raised a health state.
Instead of putting them in the dying state, i would propose the deep wound state. Although i think that getting out of a trap shouldn't have a downside without add-ons but if there is a need of one, I suggest deep wounds. Dying state is VERY overkill. With deep wounds they waste time mending.
HILLBILLY
Remove the wild sensitivity spike to his chainsaw on sprint activation
I think that the wild sensitivity should stay because it is VERY VERY hard to control and even more to master. I only play hillbilly for dailies and I usually just chainsaw someone when i'm right next to them because I can't do the wild sensitivity turn. A lot of hillbillies skillcap is based around this mechanic, it feels like a unhealthy and unfun change to me.
HAG
Remove limit on teleport distance
This feels overkill because the other buff you propose is already a very big buff, even if it doesn't seem like it. I mained hag for a few months and what you do with her is basically a web with her traps and if survivors blow away 2-3 traps and you get no value from it you are in a very bad place. The other buff will make her much better.
SPIRIT
The spirit can no longer hear the survivor’s grunts of pain or breathing when using her ability, only footsteps, grass, and rushed actions.
The survivor’s no longer get warning sound when the spirit uses her power outside of her terror radius(this was a buff that only helped SWF groups, and it made those in comms able to say exactly when the spirit used her ability, ruining any chance of tricking the survivor)
These 2 changes seem horrible to me for both sides. Everyone complains about prayer beads bracelet because there is almost 0 counterplay to it, so making it base kit would make spirit VERY OP. Everyone already complains about it because it is very unfun to play against, so no.
For the other change, I want to say that removing the groaning detection from spirit will kill her. Even making her a 4.6 killer on par with the changes wouldn't make it for her to be close to as good as she is now.
I propose to make her have an animation while channeling the ability but making the channeling time shorter so she can catch survivors and sometimes be sneaky. An completely change prayer beads of course.
LEGION
Rework killer instinct to show directional markers to blips not on screen(similar to the damage markers from an FPS)
I don't like this part about killer instinct, but I like the other changes. Also, as a legion main with 600 hours on them i don't think this is the right way to fix them. They need much more to be fixed and be made a good killer, at least.
CLOWN
Bottle count with the addon that give survivor’s the exposed effect are forced to be 3
The way I read this, this is a nerf and clown needs everything but nerfs. I think that they should increase the bottles that he has by 1 and this add-on shouldn't change that fact and you can use add-ons that increase the bottle count on pair with it.
HUNTRESS
When out of hatchets move speed becomes 115%
Survivors should be rewarded by making the huntress miss the hatches and she should be punished when missing hatchets. This change takes down those parts and i don't think this is a healthy change.
Overcharge
Final level of overcharge now has an impossible skill check.
Everything should have counterplay in PvP online games and this doesn't seem like it. Counterplay has a giant impact on fun so i think this doesn't make it.
Perhaps make it half the space that it has as it is now, but not impossible.
Unnerving presence
Debuff icon hidden when no skill check is active.
Unnerving presence should always be showing. The other buffs are already really good and make the perk a must on a terror radius build.
Survivors
Adrenaline
If being carried by the killer or on a hook when adrenaline triggers, the free health state is lost. Otherwise unchanged.
I think that adrenaline should stay the way they are and receive no changes. It's a very good, very balanced perk imo.
Boil over
The killer’s ability to see hook auras reduced to 0 while carrying survivor.
I recently experienced of how frustrating this perk can be and not knowing where the hooks are. This is very overkill, no fun for the killer. It's vey OP having a wiggle free most of the time and reset chases. DS already is strong and very frustrating because of that and has a lot of restrictions, one of them being that it can only be used once per game. It's a no from me.
Borrowed time
Now activates when the killer is within 32 meters. Otherwise unchanged.
I think that this perk should have a risk against some killers. The objective of using borrowed time is to make a safe rescue, but should have some counter from some killers imo.
Distortion
Killer is made aware of this perk when it triggers.
The purpose of distortion is about not giving the killer information. This change seems counterintuitive.
No Mither
JUST A QOL CHANGE: Also remove the music while injured using this perk.
Everything else is fine i think, maybe a bit overkill not showing the broken status effect, but it's a matter of testing.
Were gonna live forever
increased survivor weight stat by 50%
Souldn't it be the opposite? Also, for this effect there is a very much better perk called lightweight that should have 25% OR 50% reduced running speed.
I don't really know how to change this perk to be honest.
I hope this helped. :)