NuclearBurrito
NuclearBurrito
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@SmokePotion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/446514#Comment_446514
if you watched the dev stream, they called it tunneling, to stab the same guy and stay on him till you hook him.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/446512#Comment_446512
I also had a neat idea for Legions power.
Feral Frenzy scales as you strike more targets in the same frenzy.
Frenzy will start with its current (ptb) speeds/duration and deep wounds timer.
Each time you hit a different survivor the deep wounds timer get's reduced by 10%, your frenzy is reset, and given an additional 3 seconds (this is to help you get to the next victim)
After stabbing a second victim stabbing the same victim will no longer end feral frenzy,
After 4 stabs total, your stab now has the ability to put down a bleeding target.
Yeah this is not even that. This is stabbing someone once and then leaving him to mend, likely outside of your terror radius.
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@SmokePotion how could someone possibly consider it tunneling? In order to do this you need to hit someone with Feral Frenzy and then leave them to chase someone else. That's the opposite of tunneling.
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@Madjura said:
No, that would be disgustingly overpowered
@Madjura How so? Remember that a 172% Killer who can use her power to down you immediately after the first hit, sees scratch marks AND has 0 fatigue time is considered balanced.
As well as a Killer who can teleport through walls (hag, not nurse)
AND A Killer who can just hit you from 10 meters away even when you are vaulting a window behind a pallet.
If we can make those work why can't we make a once per chase speed boost work?
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Also the M1 drain mechanic would make more sense with this.
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How do you determine which legion member you appear as?
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Adding more exits or changing the stains to the basement sounds like a really hard and long modeling job. Just decrease the Killer hitbox so that Survivors can get around the Killer, it's way easier.
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@Dreamnomad also at that point you're basically just doing a varient on the whole Frenzy -> cancel -> stun thing. Since you still need to chase them with M1 in order to hit them the first time in order to even attempt that.
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See? Even the M1 draining Frenzy thing suddenly makes more sense with this sort of change.
Also even without that it would be comparable to other combo hits such as with the Huntress or Plague.
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@Dreamnomad said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/445327#Comment_445327
@NuclearBurrito Just to play devil's advocate for a bit here, that isn't how players would use his power if they did this. The smarter play in most situations would be to hit players with a regular hit and then use Frenzy to secure the down. Maybe that would be a problem, maybe not. But when trying to figure out if it would be balanced or not, that should be considered.
You mean hit them once. Wait 13 seconds and THEN down them with Frenzy.
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First of all: Shush, you aren't supposed to say it out loud.
Second of all: I am all for removing scratchmarks and reworking aura perks if it means looping isn't a dominant strategy. 40 pallets is a bit much but we can work something out I'm sure.
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Here's an idea. Maybe the Survivor SHOULDN'T have a strong chance at living at that point.
I mean the Hatch is already a Free escape. Now you don't even need to do a gen for it. So why not give the Killer a "Free Kill" for getting there first?
Remember that the Killer ALWAYS needs to deal with the Hatch at some point in order to win. But a Survivor can easily escape without the Hatch even coming up.
And even then it's not THAT Killer sided. Yes the Killer is more likely to find the Hatch than the Survivor. But it's not THAT much more likely and it is still possible to open the gates despite everything.
Easy? No. Possible? Yes.
Is it possible for the Killer to kill you if YOU find the hatch first? No
So why should the Survivor still be able to easily escape when the Killer finds the hatch first?
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@Acromio said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/446042#Comment_446042
Spouting non sequiters as always, I see. Whatever, it doesn't change the fact that "mindgames" is just a stupid buzzword used by those who don't know how to explain themselves or describe what they're talking about, which is playing the odds. It doesn't matter what you do during a match, there's always a 50/50 chance that you'll be right -except where the devs caved in and unbalanced the game in survivors' favour.
@Acromio while I know people misuse the term, Mindgames are a real thing and are more than playing the odds.
Take my example of 3 possible routes from earlier. Yes you have a base chance of 1/3 of picking the right path. However you can increase those odds through psychological factors. For example by default most people aren't going to go towards the dead end. And if someone has went to the jungle gym then they are more likely to go do the juke location next time to mix things up.
Read this for more info:
In situations such as the movie scenario mentioned above, one often may try to use what he knows of his opponent to make a better choice. However, in some cases this leads to recursive reasoning: "But that's just what he wants me to think, so I'll do the opposite. But maybe that's what he wants me to think, so I'll not do the opposite. But maybe that's what he wants me to think..."Social deduction games are actually one of the best examples of mindgames. Considering that mindgames and psychological manipulation are literally the entire game sometimes.
The key to a good mindgame situation is where there is a mathematically "best option" no matter what, but using it constantly makes you predictable enough to make you lose every time. In the context of a DBD chase that means if the Killer knows how the Survivor is going to run a loop then he should be able to down that Survivor very quickly. And more importantly by the time both the Survivor and Killer can see which route the other has chosen to take it must be too late to change back.
That last part is key. As a Killer you can see how they will run a loop and move to cut them off. However they can just see you doing this and take a different route on reaction. Yes there are SOME loops where this isn't the case, and the entirety of the Spirit negates this (ignoring the bug for a second) but in general these are not Mindgame opportunity's.
Basically. If you can program an AI to do it perfectly then it isn't a Mindgame. (baring the insanely advanced neural network AI's that make up prediction algorithms).
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Which is why we don't want that. I just want to do proper mindgaming which REQUIRES unreliable information. Looping does not provide unreliable information since I know for sure where the Survivor is as the Killer (using scratchmarks and/or vision) and the Survivor knows where the Killer is (using 3rd person and/or red stain)
Therefor Mindgames cannot meaningfully occur most of the time while looping. Yes there are exceptions like a few loops in maps like Larry's as well as the entirety of the Spirit (who I main btw). But in general most loops occur in places where the Killer and Survivor have vision of each other.
Thus you aren't having any mindgames. Just routing.
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Yes. Make the Killer hitbox smaller to fix this issue.
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@Saint_Ukraine you are going to need to be more specific. Which guy?
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I don't blame you. There is a reason it hasn't been fixed already and it isn't because there is no problem, instead it is because the easiest solutions cause even bigger problems.
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Note: My stance is not the same as Orions clearly even if we do reach nearly identical conclusions. Please do not hold us to each others claims.
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@MrDardon for reference my current stance is:
A: Looping as a dominant strategy needs to go
B: Pallets and Windows ect NEED to exist since they are what make alternative strategy's plausible. Thus they need to stay
C: Thus some alternative method to nerfing loops is needed.
I have not settled on a way to do that and it would be great if we could brainstorm together.
Some potential ideas are:
Stamina system for survivors.
Hitbox and bloodlust buffs for Killers.
Total map overhaul
None of these are "silver bullets" or anything. I personally think that Stamina has the most potential but would be hard enough to implement that coming up with something else would be much better.
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@Judith the meta making a good deal of kits nonviable simply due to the fact that you NEED to be able to get quick downs in order to be a good Killer. If that was fixed then it might be much easier but we already have an entire thread discussing how much of a headache THAT causes.
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I certainly don't want to remove pallets. That would be very counterproductive.
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Technically yes but it's easier said than done.
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I would like to point out that Survivors don't need mindgames to loop. Most of the time they can simply see the Killer and thus just need to react and follow the optimal path.
Does that require skill? Probably. Is it fun for the Survivor? Maybe. Is it the best kind of chase? Definitely not.
Remember. Mindgames require unreliable information.
You need information so that there is an actual piece of logic to go through. But it needs to be unreliable so that if your opponent can predict you then they can guarantee a correct course of action (and vice versa)
For example. Lets say they removed scratchmarks. You as a Killer are chasing a survivor who runs out of LoS using a window. When you get around you see 3 different possible paths the Survivor could have taken. One of which would take you about 30 seconds to loop if you both run it optimally, one doesn't have a loop but has more juke areas where the Survivor might break LoS again and the 3rd location is practically a dead end where they will be downed immediately if you follow them down there.
If you Killer choses wrong the Survivor will escape for sure.
Where would you go as Killer?
Where would you go as Survivor?
It obviously depends on your read on the other player in that particular match, which means you can never rely on having a best answer. But the important thing is that a decision made with partial but incomplete information was required. The Survivor doesn't know where the Killer is going to go in order to continue the chase and the Killer doesn't know where the Survivor ran in order to end it.
Looping however is often just about running the optimal path. There isn't really any meaningful decisions to make since there is an objectively right answer to any action AND enough information to execute it on reaction.
Yes not all loops are like that. But most are and that's the problem. The Killers shack is an example of that. It's more of following an algorithm than preforming a mindgame since barring perks you have enough information to be sure what to do at any given moment.
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@TreemanXD oh this is absolutely not a reliable tactic. But it's better than immediately getting into a chase. If they see the light and go to investigate then you MIGHT be able to slip away and get to the other gate.
Will you? Probably not, but it is possible.
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To answer the question you get a feel for how often the Killer turns and then make gate progress while he's looking at the other gate. Right before he turns back around duck behind cover and repeat until the gate is open.
No I would not expect it to work very much. But it's something I guess.
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@Judith It would be! That's why you can't just remove looping and call it a day. I'm not saying we should and anyone who is saying that doesn't understand how balance works. I know better than do think that is a good idea.
However that does NOT mean that we shouldn't nerf looping. Just that if we do then we MUST also give Survivors buffs. Maybe to gen repairs speed, probably buffs to stealth and other alternative strategies (which is also the best approach to gen rush. Nerf it AND buff something else as an alternative). Luckly unlike genrush there IS a clear alternative. Yes right now no one cares because looping is just better. You are 100% correct about that and ITS PART OF THE PROBLEM!
Therefor:
Nerf looping
Buff not-looping
You must do both or nothing will be solved.
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Yeah losing a Killer who is breaking a pallet IS an example of an alternative to looping.
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@LCGaster technically you can. But that misses the point so for a real answer:
You don't, instead you nerf it until it isn't a viable strategy, or at the very least isn't a dominant strategy while in a chase.
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It all comes down to how exactly you remove looping, since looping isn't a mechanic but rather a strategy you can't just say "looping is now removed" since that means nothing in terms of mechanics. And you can't just remove windows and pallets since those are very important to the LoS jukes I mentioned.
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@Judith I'm presenting alternatives!
They definitely exist. Unfortunately they are not nearly as strong as looping is which is why we don't usually talk about them. But that doesn't mean there can't be other ways.
So long as we don't make these kinds of changes in isolation we can definitely make it work.
Also:
"Yes considering the fact survivors have hardly any other means to escape the chase. Pallets and loops are there for a reason and make the game what it is today."
This right here is why I think Scratchmarks are the root of the issue rather than some Survivor mechanic.
Scratchmarks mean you can't really escape a Killer who is determined to catch you 9/10 times. So if you can't shake the Killer then what can you do? Stall them until you can escape! And how do you do that? Looping!
So no scratchmarks (or at least weaker scratchmarks) means jukes work well enough to be a primary strategy. Which then means looping doesn't have to be a workable long term strategy for the game to work. Which then lets us nerf it restoring the games balance, both in general (since juke/mindgame focused gameplay generally leads to shorter chases for one reason or another) and for Killers (Freddy, Doctor and Wraith suddenly are able to compete really well, Nurse and Billy suddenly have a lot of counterplay to contend with ect)
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Ok. How?
Also the alternative is LoS jukes btw. If you are able to get back into hiding before the Killer is able to catch up do you then that is a successful chase that didn't involve loops.
I know that's unreliable in the current state of the game but that just misses the point, the way the game is setup allows for it to work and all we really need to do for that is nerf the ######### out of scratchmarks.
The real question is how to stop looping in the minimum number of changes in a way that doesn't stop alternative methods.
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I mean. If you aren't supposed to down people with M1 out of frenzy, and you aren't supposed to down people with Deep wounds.
Then what ARE you supposed to down people with?
This is why I think Frenzy should down people who are injured without DW. It doesn't encourage tunneling since it work on everyone BUT the person you initially went after. It gives a logical inherent reward to chain hitting a bunch of people. AND it lets ALL of the nerfs work for his kit in order to make it still fair.
His ability to ignore pallets and windows too strong? They were just nerfed. He can just wait for you to mend? Not if you can just ignore DW in his terror radius, which also makes it easier to tell when he is nearby since the edge of the TR can be hard to hear sometimes. Too hard to juke? No scratchmarks, no blood, a long stun and he is kicked out on a miss. Can't get away from him while he is using Killer Instinct? Now he's slower while using it and has no addons that help make it that better.
All of those things make no sense to implement if you can just ignore his frenzy attacks anyways. But if once you have mended (which you eventually have to do) he can (relatively) easily down you with Frenzy then suddenly it all adds up.
@Peanits any idea if this was one of the "too awesome to share" ideas that the devs had?
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I personally think that having it be more time but after the gens would be cooler. But right now is fine too.
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Spirit with Huntress as a secondary
I don't play survivor much but when I do I'm Meg
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*faster
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1 hit is far FAR easier to get as Spirit or Hag compared to with Wraith.
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@Coriander said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/443068#Comment_443068
What if they're Obsession because of your perks? =P
Camp anyways because it's dying light kappa
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@Luigifan64 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/435678#Comment_435678
So you'd have it just speed up medium vaults and not the fast ones?
@Luigifan64 yes. If you could do a medium vault at almost (but not quite) fast vault speeds then that would make you much more difficult to corner giving a comparable advantage to BL's secondary effect.
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Apparently they agree. The terror radius change was reverted
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Wait no she's not dead yet! They reverted the TR nerf and everything!
WE HAVE A PULSE PEOPLE!
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@CronaWins said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/442096#Comment_442096
@Cali You're argument would be more valid if you didn't dodge my question.
I haven't mention anything about traps being place in front of the hook as that is not part of the conversation. Do not mislead others.
Do you consider a known issue or exploit a nerf because it was removed?
@CronaWins yes
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Sounds good to me
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With the dedicated servers in the PTB the hitboxes seem to be fixed.
It's not perfect, there are stutter issues and some input delay that wasn't there before. But the hitboxes in particular seem to be good right now. I tested it with the Huntress btw.
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@Hoodedfengm1n No one left behind
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I'd honestly rather keep the nerfs but make the power down injured survivors who don't have deep wounds. Thus making the power lethal.
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@Ihatelife said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/442320#Comment_442320
You are the one who is trolling here. Thanks to people like you killers are nerfed to the ground.
To be fair he does acknowledge that the Legion is weak right now and should be buffed. He's just saying this is a decent base, which we can more easily improve on.
This is a reasonable opinion to hold and has potential predictive power we can work with.
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yeah. EGC is after the gate is openning. The Killer isn't camping the gate because you are already on the other side of it.
I've only even gotten an EGC Kill by openning the gate while the survivors were on the other side of the map while using ToTH and NOED and then downing people that tried to cleanse my NOED totem.
And even then they easily could have escaped using the other gate. I was playing as Huntress btw.
Also dedicated servers seems to have a thing where is causes powers to cancel randomly. I had multiple missthrows where I held the button but threw the hatchet anyways or where I randomly unphased as spirit.
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@powerbats not how that works. It is always on the devs when an exploit is performed or when a broken strategy is performed. Also there was only 1 exploit not 2.
Moonwalking does not involve any bugs whatsoever and thus doesn't qualify as a bug. At most it is emergent gameplay. But even with the infinite mending bug it would be insane to expect it NOT to be used and abused.
If there is a useful exploit then it WILL be used by someone. Depending on its usefulness more people might use them. For example survivors vaulting entity blocked windows, the bug is just a bug, but the survivors actually performing the vault is an exploit. Is this surprising? Hell no, I would be shocked if no one took advantage of that bug
Same with the Spirit bug and now with the Legions missed attack drain bug (it's supposed to keep the timer)
The fact that an exploit is used when it gives an advantage is an inevitability when it isn't fixed fast enough. The only exploits that aren't abused are useless (like some animation and sound glitches) or are impossible for a human to perform and require a TAS.
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Shorter, not effected by downs or starts on 1st gen.
I think exactly one of those would be good. Any more might be too much given its purpose
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no
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You are. Stand your ground soldier