NuclearBurrito
NuclearBurrito
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/597306#Comment_597306
Unless they changed something and I didn't read it, it should still be 16 seconds per totem, for a total of 70 seconds.
Everyone has had ideas on how to incentivize killers to leave the hook, but survivors don't want any of that stuff. They don't want to meet killers halfway, they just want to have their cake and eat it too. Many people have suggested incentives. You need only search.
You are both wrong. It's 14 seconds.
Also, you wouldn't even need to use Kindreds effect, since that sometimes gives information that not even SWF would have access to.
Just inform every survivor of which survivors are in the Killer's terror radius, and then rework insidious to not be so campy
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Are you guys on PC? I can be on in an hour to test this with both of you. I have spirit.
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@Marcus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/596331#Comment_596331
1 That Spirit had Mother Daughter Ring, she could make that distance. Even when she appeared, it was clear that she came from the pallet, that's why the other grass didn't move. She was still phasing because she was still invisible.
2 This is again is not the only video where I saw grass moved by a invisible Spirit, but it was the most recent one.
3 I like you call people "full of #########" even if you don't know anything about them. Not all people from Reddit are Omega survivors biased, there are also nice people who actually know something about balance. So practically you said you are the only one right and the other are wrong, right ?
4 I don't need to test anything in KYF when I saw it happening in game and other people did as well.
@Marcus if you aren't willing to test it then how are we supposed to settle this for good?
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Well at the very least the video DID show him not falling for a spirit standing still. So, progress I suppose.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/595062#Comment_595062
Yes actually, they do suck at it. Just because you are good at basically running in a circle, or that you have 5k hours, or that you are rank 1 DOES NOT make you good at mind games. In fact, it seems most players are just in bot mode, doing the same sorts of things against every killer. Maybe they can do simple mind games, but it takes a certain type of mind to get into the opponent's head. It's not easy to learn or teach this either, it's more of a case of "you can do it or you can't".
I mean, in a fighting game anyone can do a combo. It just takes practice and repetition. Setting up for that combo is a different story, especially against a very strong opponent that can read your moves.
Like I have 10k hours across the entire Gears of War series. I was diamond ranked in Gears 4 (before they introduced d1-d5 I stopped playing before that). And let me tell you, even at a diamond rank there are players that just have no game sense and no mind games. They are literally like bots doing the same thing over and over. They fall for the same tricks over and over. Then they complain about it when they lose, when it was pretty much entirely in their control to counter. Most players honestly, truly do not learn from their mistakes over the course of a single game. They cannot change their behavior on the fly.
So yes, being a good looper or high rank or whatever is not an indication of one's ability to mind game and/or play against mind games. And Spirit has a lot of potential for mind games and as such a lot of players fall for her shenanigans. But trust me when I say that there are players out there that don't fall for it. I've had to chase them and it's not easy. I have to really be on point and outplay them if I want to catch them.
I'd suggest playing a Social deduction game of some sort.
Especially One night ultimate werewolf if you have people to play with.
Those games are somewhere from 50% to 90% mindgames depending on which one you play.
It won't help you with DBD fundamentals, but it helps you get into the right mindset.
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@KaoMinerva said:
No dude we're not about to start this NERF SPIRIT thing!
That already started. I'm just trying to quantify it.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/596062#Comment_596062
@theArashi huh?!?!
the hatch would be open with one survivor. In which case just find it and close it first. They can’t loop forever once EGC has started.
@DudeDelicious the Killer couldn't close the hatch when infinites were more of a thing.
Also. Infinites are pretty much the ultimate dominant strategy. You have no reason not to run to the infinite loop every time you can and the Killer will never hit you if you do.
So whatever you did is not a mindgame, since it has a definite right answer for both sides.
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@KillermainBTWm8 said:
It looks like anything I don't like in a game=cheating therefore I don't like the fact that the killer kills me cheater!
TBH my opponent using M1 is cheating.
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They didn't add this, 0/10 rework. Would rework again
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Well. To be more specific it CAN be a mindgame. It's not ALWAYS a mindgame just because the setup is there.
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@ArecBalrin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/594731#Comment_594731
It's close to what you explain in your OP. I can quickly say that Peanits example using rock-paper-scissors is something which I categorically dismiss as not being a mind-game: both sides have equal information, particularly on the first round against each other. Both are getting the same information with each iterative round, though often the one paying attention to it the most likely has an advantage. Research on psychological determinism suggests no one is capable of picking truly at random; their choices are unconsciously known a long time before they are consciously aware of them.
Anyway, the first major sticking-point for me when regarding your case is the very first numbered-point: that a mindgame prerequisite is that there is no dominant option when odds are in play. I will cite high-level Poker as an obvious case where mindgames are happening which are prompted precisely because of dominant options. Every player has different options that are dominant and there is an advantage to finding out who has what options and that is a mindgame.
@ArecBalrin Dominant option in this case is an option that is ALWAYS the best. Or in otherwords. If I can guarantee a down in roughly the same amount of time no matter what you do then I will take that guaranteed down no matter what.
It's like playing rock paper scissors but I automatically win if you play anything other than paper. In that case scissors is my dominant strategy, since I will win no matter what you throw out.
And in chess. Once you reach a "Mate in X" situation the mindgames are over and the game is just seeing how long the opponent can delay the inevitable. There is simply no benefit to tricking the other player so no mindgame can occur.
That is different from a PREFERABLE option. Which is usually the best but sometimes not the best. So long as you can exploit that "sometimes", and your opponent knows this, a mindgame is possible.
Take my example of going to a window vs a pallet. Depending on the Killer I am it's possible to get to exactly one of those locations. Possibly with a red glow mindgame depending on the exact location.
However I need to do it quickly enough and I need to get to the right one in order to not lose a lot of distance and get the hit quickly.
If the Survivor goes for the Pallet then that Pallet is lost, if he goes for the Window nothing is lost.
Thus going for the window is preferable.
Would you go for the Window or the Pallet?
What if you were the Killer?
That is a mindgame.
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@thesuicidefox said:
@Sairek "people hate facing against Spirit for a specific reason"
Yes. And that reason is they suck at mind games. They have little to no prediction skills and they act predictably. They lack any sort of creativity when it comes to figuring out what their opponent will do and what their opponent expects they will do. When the killer tries to do a red stain mind game on these players, they aren't predicting the killer as much as they are just reacting to the red stain.
If I had to give it a number, I'd say 9 out of 10 survivors simply suck at mind games. Thus, 90% of survivors are easy prey for a good Spirit that can actually mind game (as other killers too) and predict their opponent. But that 10% of survivors that don't suck at mind games can actually beat a Spirit player. And no it's not me messing up, it's them doing something that outplays me. They do a mind game, or predict my mind game, which messes me up. It's not me messing up on my own, they had influenced it.
@NuclearBurrito Another aspect of mind games you missed is called "conditioning". This is where you purposely act in some manner for a few of the initial interactions, then do something completely different once the opponent is "conditioned" to react a certain way. A good example of this is respecting pallets. If you chase someone and respect say, the first 2 pallets they loop very hard, they will be conditioned to expect you to respect pallets in the future. So then when you start to disrespect pallets, you get free hits because they don't expect it. And even if they realize you will disrespect pallets, because they have been conditioned like a Pavlovian dog, they will subconsciously expect this and thus continue to react as if you will respect the pallet. Once conditioned, it is VERY hard to break the pattern even if you are aware of the change.
If you want a good example of this look no further than a Japanese Street Fighter player named Tokido. He will literally throw the first match to condition his opponent, then completely demolish them the next 2 because they have been conditioned to react in a way he can seriously punish. It's not easy to break down everything he does, but a good example is that he will always do a wake-up dragon punch when knocked down. This conditions the opponent to block then immediately start a combo to punish it. However, once he stops this, the opponent will block and then throw out the combo anyway, which he then blocks himself and does a super damage counter combo.
Any killer can condition their opponent(s) to react a certain way, and Spirit is no exception. However in the case of Spirit, she is more effective at conditioning because she has more options for it than most other killers do. Such as the stand still mind game. No other killer has that option available to them, so while it might seem like a blind guess it's actually not. It's the killer setting up a scenario that will condition you to react in a certain way. There are players that do not fall for this at all, and that's because these players understand what the Spirit is actually trying to do and know they can call her bluff by walking away from her and the loop. If she was faking, now she will either stop and follow or start to phase walk (which you can predict because you won't see her start to walk), giving you a chance to run to the next loop or maybe even stealth her depending on what tile it is. If she wasn't faking, well there is a chance she won't expect you to walk away like that and thus won't land the hit out of phase walk. The biggest trick here for survivors is to NOT ALWAYS DO THE SAME THING! That's how you get conditioned. It's hard but you need to actively do something different every time she tries to do this mind game. Doing this will stop the conditioning and make it harder for her to predict you, meaning she is more likely to guess wrong on her end.
I honestly feel that people who say Spirit has no counter play just have no ability to mind game themselves. They are pure reactionary players, and then they complain because they have nothing to react to, as @Sairek is. You're not SUPPOSED to have something to react to, your supposed to do something creative and unexpected to avoid this stuff. I main Spirit and I honestly don't have a problem mind gaming her because I know what she is trying to do, what she sees when she is doing it, and I know how to avoid being conditioned to react a certain way each time. I also use Iron Will and Spine Chill, and I honestly don't see why it's a problem that you could use perks to counter her to make up a lack of mind game skill, ESPECIALLY when those perks counter her so hard it's like night and day.
@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/594737#Comment_594737
Chess is a weird example. There is technically a "best move" for any given state of chess. The issue is that it's practically impossible to actually figure out what move that is in a reasonable time frame. This is why a super computer who can calculate things much MUCH quicker is able to beat the best human players in the world.
Reading an opponent doesn't mean you aren't playing with the odds. You only do better than random chance because those odds aren't even.
If a Killer respects 10 pallets in a row then chances are he's going to respect the 11th one too. However, it's still playing the odds even then, a Killer could respect a large number of pallets in a deliberate gambit to make you think he's going to continue doing so, and thus later on in the game he can just not respect a pallet and get a hit at a critical moment.
And yes. I absolutely expect a better survivor to be able to play the odds more effectively than a worse survivor. But at the end of the day you haven't guaranteed anything.
Let's go back to the example of a killer respecting pallets.
When the Killer respects a pallet there are a few possible reasons why:
A: His build makes this a dominant strategy for some reason. Maybe he's playing Nurse and can just teleport through it to hit you anyways. Maybe it's a Hag with a trap at the other side. Maybe he's just running BS and wants to use it. Either way this isn't a mindgame since he has no reason to run through the pallet even if you don't throw it.
B: He specifically expects you to throw it. This is also not a mindgame since there is no expectation of the abuse of unreliable information. This however is critical to something which is a mindgame. Just understand that this is level 0.
C: He's conditioning you to not throw down pallets. Basically this means he's going to unexpectedly not respect a pallet at somepoint. That's the situation I mentioned earlier. It's also a level 1 mindgame.
D: He's predicting that you will predict that you are about to mix things up, and thus doesn't. This is level 3 and up.
E: He's crazy and doesn't understand what he's doing at all.
Basically. ANY potential mindgame interaction can be broken up into these 5 options.
1: It's situationally dominant
2: He assumed standard play
3: He's counterplaying standard play
4: He's counterplaying counterplay
5: He doesn't understand the situation.
Remember though that I could technically negate your skill against me entirely by flipping a coin at every pallet in order to decide if I'm going to respect it or not. Heck I could use RNG to determine what I'm going to do for the first few pallets (the exact number could also be random) and then switch my strategy after that random amount of time. You could not possibly do better than random chance at counteracting random actions. And since each action could be effectively random with no way for you to know, it is always a guess to assume it isn't in any specific situation, even if the guess is a reasonable one that doesn't make it any more of a guess.
Remember. Poker IS played professionally. Guessing is something you can be better or worse at and mindgames are the same deal. The reason why we don't actually use RNG at loops is because we suspect that we can do better otherwise. And we can because the odds are not even for each option. But just because the odds aren't even doesn't mean they aren't odds. Otherwise we could just calculate everything out before hand and always do the same thing every time.
Yeah I know what conditioning is and it's very important for these types of things.
I'd like to point out that anything that Iron will counters can also be innately countered perkless by simply being healthy. She can't injure you for free afterall and no perks are required in order to be healthy to begin with.
Spine chill is a different matter but isn't strictly required anyways. It definitely helps though.
If you don't believe that predicting people that far in advance or as Sairik put it "being a psychic mind reader" just watch this video:
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/594795#Comment_594795
My point is that Spirit turns these "educated guesses", basically, everything and anything a player does to be good at this game, and just tosses it all out the window for an uninteractive 'blind' guessing game instead that so uninteractive, Spirit can literally just stand there and it's a "mind game".
Whether this is balanced or not is a different discussion. However, is removing all of that interaction fun? I strongly do not believe it is. A killer that's so uninteractive that they can still there and it be a mind game raises lots of red flags to me. If the survivor could do the same kind of "mind games" back, then it would be a lot more interesting and would indeed be a lot like Poker, but more often than not they are just a sitting duck, at a massive disadvantage, and with no feedback on how you could of prevented getting hit, it feels like there is nothing you can do, and this is frustrating beyond belief when on the receiving end of her blade and even more frustrating when you know there's nothing you can do, because for all intents and purposes, it feels about as fair as facing a 5-blink Nurse or old Legion.
With Spirit, the lack of interaction, the lack of feedback, the blind guessing -- I may as well be playing against an AI opponent. It wouldn't feel any different. And that's why I will suicide on first hook against her every single time until she gets some kind of change. She's the only killer I will do this solely against, because I find her that boring and that uninteractive that I'd rather just not play the game at all than face her.
Hell, I'd rather go up against an Omega blink Nurse than an add-onless Spirit. At least when an Omega blink Nurse tries to swing at me and whiffs, I know it was because I consciously reacted to her and did something to avoid getting hit (unless she just outright sucks and can't blink to save her own life, of course). I have that visual feedback -- that interaction. Not that the Spirit just appears and smacks me down with zero counter other than apparently being a psychic mind reader to the point that I need to pick specific perks before I know which Killer I am facing to counter her. There's a reason Huntress has an audible cue for winding up, an arm and charge time -- imagine if she was able to just whip a hatchet with no sound or animation from the survivor's -- that'd be a guessing game on when she's gonna throw -- much like Spirit. And I had to face that against a T-posing Huntress before -- no Hatchet animation, no wind up sound. It was exactly like facing Spirit. The exact same problems.
At the end of the day, you can try to define, or redefine what a "mind game" is, but people hate facing against Spirit for a specific reason and I can ensure you it's not because people don't like blue-skinned ladies making Waluigi impressions or just because she's strong (I like the fact she's strong by the way -- I just hate why she is strong).
@Sairek That sounds like a problem that can be solves using QoL.
Since the interaction itself is no different from any other mindgame, standing still is just as predictable as a red glow mindgame in it's own way. But rather that it's hard to tell exactly what the mistake was.
There are a ton of stuff that can be done to improve that without a single change that actually effects the chase mechanics themselves.
For example: Imagine if when the Spirit unphased she left a trail that showed the path she took for a brief second.
This wouldn't help you in a chase. But it would help you show exactly what she did in order to get to you. And if you lead her astray then you'd know where she checked and thus where she lost you. Suddenly just like Nurse you get that visual confirmation, much like how you can use a cross hair to make a Huntress more accurate without effecting hatchet mechanics.
There are other things you can use for the same purpose:
- A brief flash when the spirit moves after standing still
- A different animation at the end of a vault that show phasing moreso than teleporting
- Maybe even an audio cue after she exits phase walk near you (thus making it more satisfying when you DON'T get hit after that)
You can use the exact same methods to figure out a Spirits next move as you can a Killer using red glow mindgames.
For example standing still:
If the Killer stands still out in the open they are almost always phasing
If the Killer stands still too soon after they just used their power they are obviously not phasing. But more importantly that's a situation where they like to do that so make note of it.
A Killer standing still in front of a dropped pallet has fairly even odds of phasing given no further information.
When you break it down this is mechanically identical to other mindgame situations.
If you add in additional feedback after the fact then there should really be no problem with the interaction.
Also, I never mentioned a single perk.
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In fact. One of the prerequisites for a mindgame I gave was that it must have SOMETHING to start with.
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@Peanits said:
I'll keep my response as simple as possible, but it's not quite a blind guess, it's more of an educated guess, and that can sway the outcome of it. It's like rock paper scissors, but you know the guy you're playing against has a 50/50 shot of picking paper.
What I mean is; as you play that match, you start to learn how they play. Do you moonwalk and keep walking a lot? Do they respect pallets? Do they try to run ahead and cut you off, or do they just follow exactly where you run?
Once you get a feel for how they play, you can play around that to improve your chances. Same goes the other way, killers can figure out how each survivor plays and plan around that.
There's definitely some guessing involved, but it's not completely luck.
Who said guesses were always blind? Of course it's an educated guess.
Poker is basically entirely these kinds of mindgames combined with normal statistics and it's one of the most competitive and skill based games in the world.
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@TRB124 said:
I’m all for mind games and all but spirit is ridiculous. The fact that you can let go of your mouse and keyboard and force the survivor to take a chance, while you don’t lose much at all just for standing still is ridiculous.
You lose distance if they keep running.
When it comes down to it, Spirit's mindgames aren't any different from other mindgames except for in the Number of places you can preform them.
If the Spirit cannot guarantee a hit because of your potential actions then it necessarily is a mindgame and follows the formula I layed out in the OP.
Any and all mindgames can be reduced to that formula of "I know you know I know you know I know..." and so on. Once you have done so every mindgame becomes ultimately the same thing. From there the only thing left to do is to figure out what type of player chooses what options and what other things those types of players tend to also do. That helps improve your odds a bit and that's also the core of mindgames.
It's not about determining the answer, since there is no best course of action. It's about finding a likely answer.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I'm sorry, I don't quite agree with this.
This is like saying Chess is nothing but a game of chance like Poker, or that fighting games are nothing but luck.
Aside from other things like reacting and reaction time to what your opponents do, if you're trying to mindgame your opponent by nearly guessing what they're going to do next, then you are mindgaming wrong.
Mind games has nothing to do with guessing. It has to do with reading your opponent. If you read incorrectly, you get punished for it.
For example, if I see the Killer has a bias to respect pallets, you bet I'm going to use that to my advantage. There's no luck or guesswork involved in this -- it's a simple observation. This is me reading my opponent and how they play. If I were to just randomly "guess" the killer would respect the pallet when they have a tendency to not respect pallets, then I'll probably be punished for it every single time.
When you see a good survivor running a killer around an entire game, you can't possibly think this is because it's just them guessing correctly a lot of the time. That's way too consistent to be just classified as nothing more than a "guessing game".
A killer, like Spirit, who outright you cannot see what they're doing or how they play, makes it a true guessing game. There's no reading. There's no tells. There's no observations. You can't tell what you did right. You can't tell what you did wrong -- if you even did anything wrong at all.
If I don't drop a pallet and the killer doesn't respect it and I go down as a result, I know immediately what I did wrong. The feedback is clear.
When that happens with a phasing Spirit, it could be a 101 possibilities of what I did 'wrong' was what got me got caught. Should I have fast vaulted the pallet? Slow vaulted it? Walked? Sprinted? Doubled Back? Fake vaulted a window? Equipped Iron Will? I have no idea -- there's zero feedback. And sometimes (albeit rarely but not impossible)
Imagine you're playing Chess, except now you cannot see your opponent's pieces on the board. Suddenly all of that knowledge, all of that observation, all of the reading the situation -- you can't do that anymore. Now it's just a guessing game.
Chess is a weird example. There is technically a "best move" for any given state of chess. The issue is that it's practically impossible to actually figure out what move that is in a reasonable time frame. This is why a super computer who can calculate things much MUCH quicker is able to beat the best human players in the world.
Reading an opponent doesn't mean you aren't playing with the odds. You only do better than random chance because those odds aren't even.
If a Killer respects 10 pallets in a row then chances are he's going to respect the 11th one too. However, it's still playing the odds even then, a Killer could respect a large number of pallets in a deliberate gambit to make you think he's going to continue doing so, and thus later on in the game he can just not respect a pallet and get a hit at a critical moment.
And yes. I absolutely expect a better survivor to be able to play the odds more effectively than a worse survivor. But at the end of the day you haven't guaranteed anything.
Let's go back to the example of a killer respecting pallets.
When the Killer respects a pallet there are a few possible reasons why:
A: His build makes this a dominant strategy for some reason. Maybe he's playing Nurse and can just teleport through it to hit you anyways. Maybe it's a Hag with a trap at the other side. Maybe he's just running BS and wants to use it. Either way this isn't a mindgame since he has no reason to run through the pallet even if you don't throw it.
B: He specifically expects you to throw it. This is also not a mindgame since there is no expectation of the abuse of unreliable information. This however is critical to something which is a mindgame. Just understand that this is level 0.
C: He's conditioning you to not throw down pallets. Basically this means he's going to unexpectedly not respect a pallet at somepoint. That's the situation I mentioned earlier. It's also a level 1 mindgame.
D: He's predicting that you will predict that you are about to mix things up, and thus doesn't. This is level 3 and up.
E: He's crazy and doesn't understand what he's doing at all.
Basically. ANY potential mindgame interaction can be broken up into these 5 options.
1: It's situationally dominant
2: He assumed standard play
3: He's counterplaying standard play
4: He's counterplaying counterplay
5: He doesn't understand the situation.
Remember though that I could technically negate your skill against me entirely by flipping a coin at every pallet in order to decide if I'm going to respect it or not. Heck I could use RNG to determine what I'm going to do for the first few pallets (the exact number could also be random) and then switch my strategy after that random amount of time. You could not possibly do better than random chance at counteracting random actions. And since each action could be effectively random with no way for you to know, it is always a guess to assume it isn't in any specific situation, even if the guess is a reasonable one that doesn't make it any more of a guess.
Remember. Poker IS played professionally. Guessing is something you can be better or worse at and mindgames are the same deal. The reason why we don't actually use RNG at loops is because we suspect that we can do better otherwise. And we can because the odds are not even for each option. But just because the odds aren't even doesn't mean they aren't odds. Otherwise we could just calculate everything out before hand and always do the same thing every time.
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@ArecBalrin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/594259#Comment_594259
I have always said DbD has no actual mindgames; what people were calling 'mindgames' was simply 'playing the odds'. I didn't outright object to other calling it 'mindgames', I just thought they would be hopelessly lost if they ever had to play an actual mindgame.
Your post is the first time I've read a proper argument and it's actually making me reconsider.
I've always wondered what people like you consider a "real mindgame" to look like.
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@DaS_only said:
No suprise this comes from someone with a spirit picture lol
Yeah you can tell I'm a spirit main lol.
I'll have you know that it is because I love mindgaming people and play a lot of games that embrace that style of play, rather than the other way around.
@Kebek said:
Completely 100% agree. "Mindgames" as we call them are very dependant on random chance of the other side's choosing. If you play against potatoes who don't know any ofc you'll land a hit almost always but when other side knows about them it just boils into who has more information about the other side and who guessed better.
That's why I hate people complaining about spirit or nurse that it's unfair to determine getting hit through prediction is unfair when literally everything in DBD is only prediction based on information and some luck. That's also why I love facing nurses and spirits the most since there is no dumb looping around safe loops and so on.
Exactly. This is why specifically Omega Blink Nurse is a problem as opposed to Nurse in general.
The more Blinks the Nurse has the more situations she can guarantee a hit in. Having only 2 blinks still allows for mindgames in many situations. 5 rarely does.
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A pure non-mindgame guessing game is what happens when you violate prerequisite 2.
For example you won't have any information, unreliable or otherwise, given purely the task of determining the outcome of a random number generator of either 1 or 0. However if you have someone else who knows the Number and tells you what the number is (with instructions to trick you to guessing the wrong one) then you have a mindgame.
The RNG tells you nothing. But the person has told you something which cannot be trusted.
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Yeah. The entire skill in the mindgame is that the different Levels I mentioned have unequal odds of being what the other player is playing at, so you can use that to do better than pure random chance, plus there are sometimes signs based off of how someone has behaved up to that point.
However, it is never a mechanical guarantee no matter how good you are. If it was then it would violate prerequisite 1 of a mindgame and it would simply be a regular mechanically correct action. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it's just not a mindgame
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@[Deleted User] said:
You have to understand, nurse is the problem of this game.
I'd argue it's scratchmarks but whatever.
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In all seriousness either just wake up or ignore it.
It's only 9% anyways, so if you care then wake up and if you don't then don't.
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@Kikki said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/594274#Comment_594274
Bbq and if you don't play on a swf were someone knows where the hatch is you must search it anyways.But wait for the hatch shouldn't be the solution.
Genus plan. Hide in a locker for the entire game to hide from BBQ.
Switch lockers after every generator completion.
Use the following Build:
Calm Spirit
Spine Chill
Wake Up
Sole Survivor
Go for the Exit gate every game after the Killer 3k's. Sole survivor means things like Bitter Murmur and Scratched Mirror Myers can't find you. Calm Spirit means things like Doctor and Iron maiden can't reveal you. Spine chill and wake up let you get cheeky gate openings.
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@Bravo0413 said:
On a serious note she is balanced... devs have finally made another top tier killer who can take some shifts from Billy, nurse and huntress.... Rin isnt even a year old yet and the good ones are few and far apart..... you come across one thatll smack you down every phase....no the next one most likely wont be able to phase to save their lives.....
Rather then talking about "what is unbalanced and what should change on spirit?" Why dont we talk about "what could help out Doc or LF?" ...... oh wait that would mean more higher tier killers possibly...
@Bravo0413 I have a LF fix thread if you wana see it.
Still theory crafting other low tiers.
I'm wanting to eventually look at:
Doctor
Wraith
Trapper
Pig
Clown
I've already posted ideas for LF and Legion.
Other Killers are relatively good.
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@vampire_toothy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/593616#Comment_593616
I don't know exactly how I feel about removing the husk, I think a better idea would be to give it a new animation when you activate your phase if you're looking for a visual indicator rather than an audio indicator.
I say this because the husk has collision which can bodyblock survivors, allowing for more skillful options that people should still be able to utilize. @NuclearBurrito
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/594047#Comment_594047
Actually I'm not a survivor main, I probably play roughly around 70% killer and 30% survivor.
@vampire_toothy close enough
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@prayer_survivor said:
Yes, and change moris to auto-moris. Please, survivors don't deserve more nerfs
Now I'm just picturing a Survivor being moried by nothing because it's automatic and the Killer already left.
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TLDR: Guessing is an inherent property of mindgames and is not a counterargument to something being a mindgame.
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Also, unlike other Killers like Ghostface, Myers and Pig. The Survivors still know you are nearby, so you aren't going to catch them completely off guard unless you are running a build with something like tinkerer.
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@The_Sadistic_Lewis said:
That’s an interesting idea, does she get anything out of channeling fully? Like a speed boost, or does she get a stun like fatigue. It would kinda be over powered of she stood right behind you and came out of her power naturally as well. So what sort of bonuses would be added to her power?
Completing the channel just lets you hit them early.
You wouldn't want to just stand behind them naturally because during that time they can run to a pallet or window. Remember, unlike the Wraith or Spirit she doesn't get any movement speed bonuses while in stealth and unlike even old Freddy she doesn't slow the game down.
So it makes sense for her to be able to immediately attack out of invisability if you are able to position yourself in their exact spot after exactly 10 seconds.
And if she wants to down you faster then she can either not use her power to do it or she can do a mindgame involving her channel.
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Please also remember the obvious counterplay of waking up frequently.
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@vampire_toothy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/593225#Comment_593225
@OrionsFury4789 I would actually like to point out that without any addons, Spirit's mobility benefit is actually not that significant. In total, Spirit's power takes 6.5 seconds to fully use at a base - 1.5 of those seconds are spent standing completely still (costing you 6.6 meters of distance) while 5 of them are spent moving at 176% (7.04 m/s) resulting in moving 35.2 meters during those 6.5 seconds vs moving at the base 4.4 m/s for 6.5 seconds which would provide you 28.6 meters of distance. Sure, during that time you gained 6.6 meters of distance + the slight boost you gain from the reappearance, but that comes at the cost of not having your power ready when you get into a chase when you could've instead spent the extra 1.5 seconds moving without her power. Her gen pressure is only actually sufficient with addons (although her chase potential is still insanely good even without addons). So it's still entirely possible for a good Spirit player to lose because of gen speeds - it's just in the cases of chases that you generally cannot win unless you have a strong window to work with or specific perks (iron will, dance with me, lithe, quick & quiet) which is where I think my suggestion would help remove the whole standstill issue while promoting healthier gameplay.
Lastly, I don't think people give Spirit enough credit when it comes to how difficult it can be to use her at times. The people who just stand completely still at pallets make a bad image for most Spirit players which is where I'd agree and say that something should be done for that playstyle in particular.
@vampire_toothy Wouldn't it make more sense to remove the husk instead then?
After all, using LoS breakers to fake a phase is much harder to do and more costly when it fails. So I see no reason why it should be an audio cue instead of a visual one.
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They can see her fully while she is channeling. She can just cancel the channel to be invisible again and 10 seconds after she goes invisible she becomes visible and able to attack instantly.
Basically she can replicate how you can sometimes see freddy in dream transition except she can chose when to show herself or even if she should show herself at all.
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I'd like to point out that a big part of this is trying to use the 2 second channel as a mindgame.
I could imagine you starting the channel on one side of a loop, and then cutting them off on the other side at the end of the 10 seconds.
Since waiting out the 10 seconds lets you strike without warning, although they will know you are there just not your exact location.
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@The_Sadistic_Lewis said:
ok, how about when the shimmer channels their power, instead of seeing her you can hear her somewhat loudly. I just think this would help a little bit
Ok so just to be clear, what exactly are you trying to accomplish here?
If they can't see her then there is no point in looking around, this isn't like the wraith where you can kinda see her anyways.
Are you saying there should be an audio component in addition to the visual one?
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@LordGlint said:
@NuclearBurrito Probably not the answer you wanna hear, but maybe give it the Freddy treatment and rework it from the ground up. I could pitch some idea if you want, but they wouldnt be anything like spirit's current ability.
@LordGlint go for it.
I wouldn't specifically request that people hate on my favorite Killer if I wasn't prepared to hear things I disagree with.
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@The_Sadistic_Lewis alright then. Let's hear it, what changes need to be made in your opinion and why?
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@LordGlint alright then. How would you go about fixing those problems if you were given the chance to?
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Just a reminder that the main point of this post is theory crafting solutions.
So far I've just heard the collision thing, which is great but I'm sure people can come up with more idea's. Or does everyone think that would be sufficient?
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@LordGlint said:
The biggest gripe I have is "the mindgames" at pallets. I put this in quotes because the Spirit player isnt losing anything by just standing there watching. Its up to the survivor to simply GUESS at which point the killer stopped standing still. Thats not a mind game, thats a guessing game.
Beyond that, lemme ask what you think @NuclearBurrito. If a Wraith could simply run up to a survivor while cloaked, thereby having the extra speed with the cloak, and hit them without ringing the bell first... would this be fair? Thats pretty much what happens with Spirit, except theres no shimmer.
Am I able to make additional changes to the wraith in order to account for this?
If so then I could probably make it work so yes.
If not then it still depends on exactly what you mean. The wraith has an addon that makes the bell not ring but still requires a channel. I'm ok with this addon.
Or it could just mean you can swing while invisible with no additional changes. Which I would not be ok with.
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To be fair I wouldn't be surprised if they just reworked shadowborn in the future.
STBFL was a big problem at the time so addressing that first makes sense. Whereas shadowborn isn't really used very often so it makes sense for it to fly under the radar.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/591140#Comment_591140
You would essentially just be left with two perks that do nearly the same thing but don't stack for arbitrary reasons. It's really messy and it wouldn't work very well. For example, if you have both on, which effect does it use? The missed attack cooldown would be better on Unrelenting and the successful attack cooldown would be better on STBFL.
It's just best to have a different effect entirely.
TBH I can respect this reason. This is why I try and make it so these sorts of things CAN stack when designing a perk suggestion.
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@LordGlint 0.3 seconds I'm pretty sure with 8 stacks of STBFL.
It only really works on one downs though except under very specific circumstances.
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@Spicybarbecue said:
killers need buffed in order to compete with SWF as 90% of games are SWF now and those games last 3-4 min max.
it's a bad sign when the only killers that are viable vs SWF are completetly OP.
either buff killers to the same power level of Nurse or completetly rework all the maps, removeing littrerally 50-60% of pallets. that's legit how strong killers need to be right now to compete.
any easier solution would be to just remove SWF from the game entirely.
@Spicybarbecue SWF is 50% actually. Not 90%.
Anyways, I'd buff up to Spirit/Hag (ignoring flashlights) level rather than Nurse level. This is slightly under Nurse but still easily strong enough to complete.
Removing SWF solves nothing and shouldn't be considered a viable option.
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MS = Meters per Second or Movement Speed
87.5% = 3.5 Meters per second btw up from 3.08.
As for Pig you'd need to see her before she gets within lunge range to be safe. She can't go through windows while crouched and will never gain distance on you if you start running so this should be fair. Also sprint burst still exists. If she's able to get close enough to ambush you then she's earned the hit.
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@ShyN3ko said:
Rework Pig addons and RBT.
I use 2-3 different addons, because many addons are just useless.
And yeah RBT has nothing to do with skill.
Just some kind of RNG.
And the ambush is rly slow.
Legion has 5 ms, Spirit 7,04 ms and Pig has 6,4.
Legion should have 6 ms,Spirit 7 ms and Pig 8 ms.
@ShyN3ko the Ambush's MS is not arbitrary. It's an extended lunge so it's speed is identical to a lunge. The Ambush roar should totally be after you are done charging though.
Legion being 6 MS would be a bit much. But a lesser increase of speed would be reasonable. Like 5.2 or 5.4 or something. Anything bigger would require additional changes (of which I have an entire thread detailing)
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Doctor could be given 10 meters of range and a 1 second shock charge time (up from 9 meters an 1.1 seconds). Speed him up to move at 87.5% MS while charging shock (up from 77%). Tier 3 makes you scream when you start to snap out instead of randomly (no longer screams from just walking around).
Trapper could just have all of his traps on him right off the bat with no arbitrary carrying capacity. The total number of traps could be reduced to compensate (maybe 6?). Also make him not get caught in his own traps. Basically I just agree with @ClogWench
Still theory crafting wraith. I'll get back to you on that
Pig should move at 100% MS while crouched. Removing her RBT requires half the boxes to be searched rounding up (2 by default) instead of a random box.
Leatherface is above
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No not a full on rework. As fun as that sounds, it's not the best idea considering that he's always going to have a chainsaw. These changes all go together:
I agree. It's much more productive to push a specific fix than an ideology behind a change. That way you can quantify exactly what it is you want.
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Vocal cords
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A base kit version of your kindred idea was tested and it was abused by survivors.
Basically. Camping NEEDS to work, otherwise it would mean unhooks are free and that means you get almost no pressure from a hook since someone who is hooked will immediately be freed with no possible consequence to doing so.
This is anti-strategy and thus anti-fun in a more fundamental sense than camping itself is.
That doesn't mean camping needs to be OPTIMAL per say. And it's 100% not right now, all you need to do in order to counter it is gen rush. You will be able to complete every generator and leave before he can get a second Kill. But there is a time and place for camping and so it's not as simple as just mindlessly punishing Killers just because.