Mindgame = Guessing game
Any time you mindgame someone there are always a few prerequisites:
1 - There is no dominant option for either side. That is to say, the Killer can't guarantee a hit and the Survivor can't guarantee a long loop. In this case they will take the dominant option regardless of what the other side does.
2 - At least 1 side has unreliable information on the other - Basically LoS is broken. Alternatively there could be multiple options that can be taken fast enough that the other side can't react. Basically a prediction is required
3 - The other side (relative to the one with unreliable information) is aware of the first 2 things - You cannot do a mindgame on accident. Suspecting a mindgame when the other person does not and messing up because of it is referred to as "outplaying yourself".
That being said. Lets look at one of the most common mindgames, the red glow mindgame at a loop:
Level 0 - The Killer has a red stain. If he rounds a corner the Survivor will know in advance. This gives the Survivor a better idea of where the Killer is going to be.
Level 1 - The Killer is able to walk backwards in order to hide his/her red stain. This can make the other survivor think they are going in the opposite direction.
Level 2 - A Survivor who sees the red glow disappear can note that there is a red glow mindgame and go towards the glow.
Level 3 - A Killer going against a good survivor can turn around and change direction to catch a Survivor that suspects a mindgame off guard.
Level 4 - A Survivor that suspects a level 3 Killer can go where there is no glow in order to avoid a hit
Level 5 - A Killer that suspects a level 4 Survivor can instead moonwalk anyways in order to mix it up.
And so on. This goes on forever.
Effectively this makes any and all red glow mindgames a guessing game. The only difference between this and a non-mindgame guessing game is that this has unequal odds. The Killer is more likely to get a hit by moonwalking compared to turning around or walking forward normally, and a Survivor is more likely to avoid a hit by avoiding the red glow. This is because there are more people who don't think about the mindgame than people that do.
This applies to literally every mindgame. It is inherent to mindgames in general. You can't guarantee a result so you have to guess what the other person guessed, who is guessing what you guess and so on. This isn't random per say, there are often inherent costs to making a given guess compared to another guess (for example if the Survivor can either go to a window or a pallet, and the Killer can cut off one of them in time but needs to predict it, the Survivor would rather go to the window in order to save the pallet for later), however ultimately both sides are always making a guess.
Comments
TLDR: Guessing is an inherent property of mindgames and is not a counterargument to something being a mindgame.
Nice explanation.
Thats just wrong. A mindgame is a strategy with a certain chance to succeed. A guessinggame is out of pure luck.
@MegsAreEvil
Chance is luck.
You can have a 99% chance to get something right but it is still luck that will ultimately determine the outcome.
Yeah. The entire skill in the mindgame is that the different Levels I mentioned have unequal odds of being what the other player is playing at, so you can use that to do better than pure random chance, plus there are sometimes signs based off of how someone has behaved up to that point.
However, it is never a mechanical guarantee no matter how good you are. If it was then it would violate prerequisite 1 of a mindgame and it would simply be a regular mechanically correct action. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it's just not a mindgame
A pure non-mindgame guessing game is what happens when you violate prerequisite 2.
For example you won't have any information, unreliable or otherwise, given purely the task of determining the outcome of a random number generator of either 1 or 0. However if you have someone else who knows the Number and tells you what the number is (with instructions to trick you to guessing the wrong one) then you have a mindgame.
The RNG tells you nothing. But the person has told you something which cannot be trusted.
I have always said DbD has no actual mindgames; what people were calling 'mindgames' was simply 'playing the odds'. I didn't outright object to other calling it 'mindgames', I just thought they would be hopelessly lost if they ever had to play an actual mindgame.
Your post is the first time I've read a proper argument and it's actually making me reconsider.
bows
You speak for all Spirit mains when you say this.
Thanketh.
Completely 100% agree. "Mindgames" as we call them are very dependant on random chance of the other side's choosing. If you play against potatoes who don't know any ofc you'll land a hit almost always but when other side knows about them it just boils into who has more information about the other side and who guessed better.
That's why I hate people complaining about spirit or nurse that it's unfair to determine getting hit through prediction is unfair when literally everything in DBD is only prediction based on information and some luck. That's also why I love facing nurses and spirits the most since there is no dumb looping around safe loops and so on.
No suprise this comes from someone with a spirit picture lol
Yeah you can tell I'm a spirit main lol.
I'll have you know that it is because I love mindgaming people and play a lot of games that embrace that style of play, rather than the other way around.
Exactly. This is why specifically Omega Blink Nurse is a problem as opposed to Nurse in general.
The more Blinks the Nurse has the more situations she can guarantee a hit in. Having only 2 blinks still allows for mindgames in many situations. 5 rarely does.
I've always wondered what people like you consider a "real mindgame" to look like.
Chess is a weird example. There is technically a "best move" for any given state of chess. The issue is that it's practically impossible to actually figure out what move that is in a reasonable time frame. This is why a super computer who can calculate things much MUCH quicker is able to beat the best human players in the world.
Reading an opponent doesn't mean you aren't playing with the odds. You only do better than random chance because those odds aren't even.
If a Killer respects 10 pallets in a row then chances are he's going to respect the 11th one too. However, it's still playing the odds even then, a Killer could respect a large number of pallets in a deliberate gambit to make you think he's going to continue doing so, and thus later on in the game he can just not respect a pallet and get a hit at a critical moment.
And yes. I absolutely expect a better survivor to be able to play the odds more effectively than a worse survivor. But at the end of the day you haven't guaranteed anything.
Let's go back to the example of a killer respecting pallets.
When the Killer respects a pallet there are a few possible reasons why:
A: His build makes this a dominant strategy for some reason. Maybe he's playing Nurse and can just teleport through it to hit you anyways. Maybe it's a Hag with a trap at the other side. Maybe he's just running BS and wants to use it. Either way this isn't a mindgame since he has no reason to run through the pallet even if you don't throw it.
B: He specifically expects you to throw it. This is also not a mindgame since there is no expectation of the abuse of unreliable information. This however is critical to something which is a mindgame. Just understand that this is level 0.
C: He's conditioning you to not throw down pallets. Basically this means he's going to unexpectedly not respect a pallet at somepoint. That's the situation I mentioned earlier. It's also a level 1 mindgame.
D: He's predicting that you will predict that you are about to mix things up, and thus doesn't. This is level 3 and up.
E: He's crazy and doesn't understand what he's doing at all.
Basically. ANY potential mindgame interaction can be broken up into these 5 options.
1: It's situationally dominant
2: He assumed standard play
3: He's counterplaying standard play
4: He's counterplaying counterplay
5: He doesn't understand the situation.
Remember though that I could technically negate your skill against me entirely by flipping a coin at every pallet in order to decide if I'm going to respect it or not. Heck I could use RNG to determine what I'm going to do for the first few pallets (the exact number could also be random) and then switch my strategy after that random amount of time. You could not possibly do better than random chance at counteracting random actions. And since each action could be effectively random with no way for you to know, it is always a guess to assume it isn't in any specific situation, even if the guess is a reasonable one that doesn't make it any more of a guess.
Remember. Poker IS played professionally. Guessing is something you can be better or worse at and mindgames are the same deal. The reason why we don't actually use RNG at loops is because we suspect that we can do better otherwise. And we can because the odds are not even for each option. But just because the odds aren't even doesn't mean they aren't odds. Otherwise we could just calculate everything out before hand and always do the same thing every time.
You lose distance if they keep running.
When it comes down to it, Spirit's mindgames aren't any different from other mindgames except for in the Number of places you can preform them.
If the Spirit cannot guarantee a hit because of your potential actions then it necessarily is a mindgame and follows the formula I layed out in the OP.
Any and all mindgames can be reduced to that formula of "I know you know I know you know I know..." and so on. Once you have done so every mindgame becomes ultimately the same thing. From there the only thing left to do is to figure out what type of player chooses what options and what other things those types of players tend to also do. That helps improve your odds a bit and that's also the core of mindgames.
It's not about determining the answer, since there is no best course of action. It's about finding a likely answer.
I'll keep my response as simple as possible, but it's not quite a blind guess, it's more of an educated guess, and that can sway the outcome of it. It's like rock paper scissors, but you know the guy you're playing against has a 50/50 shot of picking paper.
What I mean is; as you play that match, you start to learn how they play. Do you moonwalk and keep walking a lot? Do they respect pallets? Do they try to run ahead and cut you off, or do they just follow exactly where you run?
Once you get a feel for how they play, you can play around that to improve your chances. Same goes the other way, killers can figure out how each survivor plays and plan around that.
There's definitely some guessing involved, but it's not completely luck.
Who said guesses were always blind? Of course it's an educated guess.
Poker is basically entirely these kinds of mindgames combined with normal statistics and it's one of the most competitive and skill based games in the world.
In fact. One of the prerequisites for a mindgame I gave was that it must have SOMETHING to start with.
This is why I love Ghostface with I’m all ears, just use Night Shroud in a chase and completely trivialize jungle gyms.
Mindgames in other competitive genres are much the same way -- you're trying to get inside your opponent's head and proactively counter what you think they're going to do.
Like in Street Fighter, dude jumps over a fireball once and gets anti-aired (AA). Next time he might throw a fireball, then walk forward and bait out an AA, and then punish it because his opponent was expecting it based on past behavior. But maybe his opponent suspected THAT, so he didn't AA, and instead countered the guy's punish...
This concept is called Yomi.
Killers such as Spirit are very heavy on it. Both sides are working with imperfect information, and trying to predict their opponent's actions based on past behavior. People in this game just get way more defensive about it because the survivor player is exposed to a lot more risk if the exchange doesn't go in their favor.
@Sairek That sounds like a problem that can be solves using QoL.
Since the interaction itself is no different from any other mindgame, standing still is just as predictable as a red glow mindgame in it's own way. But rather that it's hard to tell exactly what the mistake was.
There are a ton of stuff that can be done to improve that without a single change that actually effects the chase mechanics themselves.
For example: Imagine if when the Spirit unphased she left a trail that showed the path she took for a brief second.
This wouldn't help you in a chase. But it would help you show exactly what she did in order to get to you. And if you lead her astray then you'd know where she checked and thus where she lost you. Suddenly just like Nurse you get that visual confirmation, much like how you can use a cross hair to make a Huntress more accurate without effecting hatchet mechanics.
There are other things you can use for the same purpose:
You can use the exact same methods to figure out a Spirits next move as you can a Killer using red glow mindgames.
For example standing still:
If the Killer stands still out in the open they are almost always phasing
If the Killer stands still too soon after they just used their power they are obviously not phasing. But more importantly that's a situation where they like to do that so make note of it.
A Killer standing still in front of a dropped pallet has fairly even odds of phasing given no further information.
When you break it down this is mechanically identical to other mindgame situations.
If you add in additional feedback after the fact then there should really be no problem with the interaction.
Also, I never mentioned a single perk.
@Sairek "people hate facing against Spirit for a specific reason"
Yes. And that reason is they suck at mind games. They have little to no prediction skills and they act predictably. They lack any sort of creativity when it comes to figuring out what their opponent will do and what their opponent expects they will do. When the killer tries to do a red stain mind game on these players, they aren't predicting the killer as much as they are just reacting to the red stain.
If I had to give it a number, I'd say 9 out of 10 survivors simply suck at mind games. Thus, 90% of survivors are easy prey for a good Spirit that can actually mind game and predict their opponent. But that 10% of survivors that don't suck at mind games can actually beat a Spirit player. And no it's not me messing up, it's them doing something that outplays me. They do a mind game, or predict my mind game, which messes me up. It's not me messing up on my own, they had influenced it.
@NuclearBurrito Another aspect of mind games you missed is called "conditioning". This is where you purposely act in some manner for a few of the initial interactions, then do something completely different once the opponent is "conditioned" to react a certain way. A good example of this is respecting pallets. If you chase someone and respect say, the first 2 pallets they loop very hard, they will be conditioned to expect you to respect pallets in the future. So then when you start to disrespect pallets, you get free hits because they don't expect it. And even if they realize you will disrespect pallets, because they have been conditioned like a Pavlovian dog, they will subconsciously expect this and thus continue to react as if you will respect the pallet. Once conditioned, it is VERY hard to break the pattern even if you are aware of the change.
If you want a good example of this look no further than a Japanese Street Fighter player named Tokido. He will literally throw the first match to condition his opponent, then completely demolish them the next 2 because they have been conditioned to react in a way he can seriously punish. It's not easy to break down everything he does, but a good example is that he will always do a wake-up dragon punch when knocked down. This conditions the opponent to block then immediately start a combo to punish it. However, once he stops this, the opponent will block and then throw out the combo anyway, which he then blocks himself and does a super damage counter combo.
Any killer can condition their opponent(s) to react a certain way, and Spirit is no exception. However in the case of Spirit, she is more effective at conditioning because she has more options for it than most other killers do. Such as the stand still mind game. No other killer has that option available to them, so while it might seem like a blind guess it's actually not. It's the killer setting up a scenario that will condition you to react in a certain way. There are players that do not fall for this at all, and that's because these players understand what the Spirit is actually trying to do and know they can call her bluff by walking away from her and the loop. If she was faking, now she will either stop and follow or start to phase walk (which you can predict because you won't see her start to walk), giving you a chance to run to the next loop or maybe even stealth her depending on what tile it is. If she wasn't faking, well there is a chance she won't expect you to walk away like that and thus won't land the hit out of phase walk. The biggest trick here for survivors is to NOT ALWAYS DO THE SAME THING! That's how you get conditioned. It's hard but you need to actively do something different every time she tries to do this mind game. Doing this will stop the conditioning and make it harder for her to predict you, meaning she is more likely to guess wrong on her end.
I honestly feel that people who say Spirit has no counter play just have no ability to mind game themselves. They are pure reactionary players, and then they complain because they have nothing to react to, as @Sairek is. You're not SUPPOSED to have something to react to, your supposed to do something creative and unexpected to avoid this stuff. I main Spirit and I honestly don't have a problem mind gaming her because I know what she is trying to do, what she sees when she is doing it, and I know how to avoid being conditioned to react a certain way each time. I also use Iron Will and Spine Chill, and I honestly don't see why it's a problem that you could use perks to counter her to make up a lack of mind game skill, ESPECIALLY when those perks counter her so hard it's like night and day.
@thesuicidefox
Yeah I know what conditioning is and it's very important for these types of things.
I'd like to point out that anything that Iron will counters can also be innately countered perkless by simply being healthy. She can't injure you for free afterall and no perks are required in order to be healthy to begin with.
Spine chill is a different matter but isn't strictly required anyways. It definitely helps though.
If you don't believe that predicting people that far in advance or as Sairik put it "being a psychic mind reader" just watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TVccz8oHAc
@NuclearBurrito Yea I didn't read the whole thread, just the OP and the Saireks comment actually.
My point with Iron Will/Spine Chill is that there is really nothing wrong with using a perk to counter a killer, yet people say "that's not a counter".
First, IW/SC are both good perks against EVERY killer, so there is no reason to say "why should I have to run THESE perks" when you get a lot of value from them no matter what.
Second, IW/SC counter Spirit hard. VERY HARD. So hard in fact that if you suck at playing against Spirit they will automatically bump you up to "not suck at playing against Spirit". It's such a drastic counter that you seriously can't just ignore their impact versus her. Just Iron Will will immediately make you so much harder to track for Spirits, even if you're not even that good.
Third, Calm Spirit. No one ever runs this perk because it's only major value is against a Doc. But guess what? It completely destroys him. Doc's whole shtick is that he is impossible to stealth as his power is made to find you super easy. Take that away from him and it completely changes how you play against this killer. I personally HATE Doc and therefore Calm Spirit is one of my favorite perks. I had been running it for a while, SPECIFICALLY TO COUNTER DOCS, and only recently took it off because I just haven't been seeing as many of them lately. But every time I do, I curse out the game because I don't have Calm Spirit on. But that's not the game's fault, that's my fault for not taking the extra precaution. Now I'm stuck having to try harder to counter this killer. Same goes for Spirit. You will need to work more for it if you don't run IW/SC, so if you really don't want that just equip those perks and you're set.
So the whole idea of "you shouldn't need perks to counter a killer" is bull #########. If you don't like a certain killer, you can easily equip perks to counter them. And when those perks are useful against other killers (or meta in the case of IW) then there is no excuse to not use them honestly. If you don't then you are just being stubborn.
PS. And yes I've seen that video before. I'm actually OG Smash Melee player. M2K got his start at my tournaments and I actually know him personally, though we haven't really spoken to or seen each other in years. I know a lot of the OG players and I am part of the reason the Smash community is where it is today because I was one of the biggest monthly tournaments on east coast. Hell I invented a lot of Fox's tech. Short hop double laser. Multi-shine. Shine grabs. Shine upsmash. No one did that until I started to do it, and even then no one did it because it was deemed flashy and unnecessary (this was many years ago before Brawl even came out, the average skill of players was no where to the point it is now, and because of that none of these techniques were useful because you just didn't need them). If you don't believe me ask around the Smash community about me. New players won't know me, but anyone that is OG like M2k will know exactly who I am. I was also a member of the back room and part of the elite, I helped draft Melee community rules and all that. I left the community shortly after Brawl because that game is just total ass. I'm actually very happy that Melee had a revival, and Ultimate looks very promising for the future of Smash.
It's close to what you explain in your OP. I can quickly say that Peanits example using rock-paper-scissors is something which I categorically dismiss as not being a mind-game: both sides have equal information, particularly on the first round against each other. Both are getting the same information with each iterative round, though often the one paying attention to it the most likely has an advantage. Research on psychological determinism suggests no one is capable of picking truly at random; their choices are unconsciously known a long time before they are consciously aware of them.
Anyway, the first major sticking-point for me when regarding your case is the very first numbered-point: that a mindgame prerequisite is that there is no dominant option when odds are in play. I will cite high-level Poker as an obvious case where mindgames are happening which are prompted precisely because of dominant options. Every player has different options that are dominant and there is an advantage to finding out who has what options and that is a mindgame.
@ArecBalrin Dominant option in this case is an option that is ALWAYS the best. Or in otherwords. If I can guarantee a down in roughly the same amount of time no matter what you do then I will take that guaranteed down no matter what.
It's like playing rock paper scissors but I automatically win if you play anything other than paper. In that case scissors is my dominant strategy, since I will win no matter what you throw out.
And in chess. Once you reach a "Mate in X" situation the mindgames are over and the game is just seeing how long the opponent can delay the inevitable. There is simply no benefit to tricking the other player so no mindgame can occur.
That is different from a PREFERABLE option. Which is usually the best but sometimes not the best. So long as you can exploit that "sometimes", and your opponent knows this, a mindgame is possible.
Take my example of going to a window vs a pallet. Depending on the Killer I am it's possible to get to exactly one of those locations. Possibly with a red glow mindgame depending on the exact location.
However I need to do it quickly enough and I need to get to the right one in order to not lose a lot of distance and get the hit quickly.
If the Survivor goes for the Pallet then that Pallet is lost, if he goes for the Window nothing is lost.
Thus going for the window is preferable.
Would you go for the Window or the Pallet?
What if you were the Killer?
That is a mindgame.
Well. To be more specific it CAN be a mindgame. It's not ALWAYS a mindgame just because the setup is there.
I'm sorry but this has become more confusing for me now.
In your opening-post, the first prerequisite for a mindgame is:
"There is no dominant option for either side. That is to say, the Killer can't guarantee a hit and the Survivor can't guarantee a long loop. In this case they will take the dominant option regardless of what the other side does."
This conflicts with what you say in your post, which rather than accepting the dominant option as in play when there is no gaurantee of a 'win' in the form of a killer landing a hit or survivor making a long-loop, these things themselves are dominant options because they are always the best.
This has taken the presence of a dominant option from being an exclusive prerequisite to an inclusive one.
Okay, I realise how I've misread the first point now and will have a think on it.
@Sairek
So, there is actually a way to predict what the Spirit is doing. See, even when the spirit is invisible, she still triggers crows. I know this is minor, but it is still a way to figure out what she is doing.
I'd love to see that kind of explanation from Mathieu when he said infinites were mindgames.
@Sairek I will agree that Spirit is pretty unfun to play against, although she isn’t my LEAST favorite. I still hate Billy and Legion more. Not because Legion is OP (they aren’t) just because I hate their playstyle.
The thing about Spirit is that you aren’t supposed to know where she is going, that’s the entire point of her character. You have clues of when she is phasing.
Three of the four Spirit also uses to track survivors. Spirit tracks on footsteps, grass/corn moving, crows, scratches, injured moans, and breathing. It is a guessing game on where she is and where you are. Basically who is gonna win.
I do like the idea that @NuclearBurrito suggested with showing you the path that the Spirit took to catch you. It should glow for a few seconds to show you the track she took.
I also believe that Spirit should have audible footsteps (louder than they currently are) and breathing similar to Wraith while she is phase walking so you have an indicator of where she is.
You should not have the vacuum sound effect when within her terror radius, why should you? If you stand at a pallet while she stands at the other side and you just SIT there that is all your fault. She also shouldn’t have a trail behind her or a glowing red stain like Nurse when blinking or a shimmer like Wraith. Not saying you’ve mentioned this but I heard people suggest this.
Her phase walk mechanic is fine as it is, survivors should just have a bit more of an indicator on where she is during phase walking. You’ll never have a clear indicator on where she is. It is the point of her character/lore.
Especially when there is only one survivor and hatch is not open yet.
@DudeDelicious the Killer couldn't close the hatch when infinites were more of a thing.
Also. Infinites are pretty much the ultimate dominant strategy. You have no reason not to run to the infinite loop every time you can and the Killer will never hit you if you do.
So whatever you did is not a mindgame, since it has a definite right answer for both sides.
@MegMain98 "She makes grass and corn move"
Actually this is not true. Grass/corn does not move when she phase walks. It was never a thing. This is just a serious case of Mandela effect in action, and I think it's because of old Freddy as he WOULD make grass/corn move while you were awake.
Yes actually, they do suck at it. Just because you are good at basically running in a circle, or that you have 5k hours, or that you are rank 1 DOES NOT make you good at mind games. In fact, it seems most players are just in bot mode, doing the same sorts of things against every killer. Maybe they can do simple mind games, but it takes a certain type of mind to get into the opponent's head. It's not easy to learn or teach this either, it's more of a case of "you can do it or you can't".
I mean, in a fighting game anyone can do a combo. It just takes practice and repetition. Setting up for that combo is a different story, especially against a very strong opponent that can read your moves.
Like I have 10k hours across the entire Gears of War series. I was diamond ranked in Gears 4 (before they introduced d1-d5 I stopped playing before that). And let me tell you, even at a diamond rank there are players that just have no game sense and no mind games. They are literally like bots doing the same thing over and over. They fall for the same tricks over and over. Then they complain about it when they lose, when it was pretty much entirely in their control to counter. Most players honestly, truly do not learn from their mistakes over the course of a single game. They cannot change their behavior on the fly.
So yes, being a good looper or high rank or whatever is not an indication of one's ability to mind game and/or play against mind games. And Spirit has a lot of potential for mind games and as such a lot of players fall for her shenanigans. But trust me when I say that there are players out there that don't fall for it. I've had to chase them and it's not easy. I have to really be on point and outplay them if I want to catch them.
I'd suggest playing a Social deduction game of some sort.
Especially One night ultimate werewolf if you have people to play with.
Those games are somewhere from 50% to 90% mindgames depending on which one you play.
It won't help you with DBD fundamentals, but it helps you get into the right mindset.
You are actually wrong, she indeed moves grass and corn while phasing, I have video proof.
It can help, but predicting another person's behavior is not something that anyone can do. The reason survivors can do it against most other killers is because most killers have limited options in mind games. It's like, red stain mind game and fake-pickup to counter flashlights. I honestly can't even think of any other mind games that matter. But Spirit has significantly more options available as mind games, and that's why people have trouble with her. They can't handle all that and just resort to bot mode where they become predictable AF.
It was part of the reason I was so good with old Freddy, because he had a lot more mind games open to him than normal killers. And not just the transition mind games, because he could basically track everyone in the game you could mind game survivors by changing targets constantly. When survivors are confused and don't what I'm doing it's literally like easy mode, even if they are normally good survivors. And that's also the reason most people sucked balls with old Freddy and complained he was weak (which he was but not as much as people said). These are the type of players to put someone to sleep, chase them until they catch them, find another survivor, rinse repeat, and that just doesn't work with him. You NEED to disengage and change targets often. You NEED to scramble survivors and make them unsure about what you are doing. If you can't do that, he's complete trash. If you can, he was actually a very effective killer.
LOL show me then because I've tested this to prove my friends wrong and she doesn't move grass/corn.
Https://youtu.be/1LoU-5F1qSs. Watch from minute 27:00 and you will see a Prayer Beads Spirit who clealry moved the grass.
The grass moved because she came out of phase walk for a lunge. If you notice, NONE of the other grass moves at all, which it should have considering the direction she was approaching from. So when that grass moved she was basically not in phase walk, she was in post phase walk lunge. That's not the same thing.
Try it in KYF on a corn map or near grass. Pick survivor, stand still in the corn/grass and have your Spirit friend phase walk around you. Nothing will move.
Well at the very least the video DID show him not falling for a spirit standing still. So, progress I suppose.
The Spirit was still phasing, she appeared just after grass moved. She was still in the ethereal plane when grass moved and the other grass didn't moved because she came from behind. Also, this is not the only video I saw Spirit moving grass, but I am not gonna to look for every video now. Also, I asked people from Reddit if they saw a phasing Spirit moving grass. I asked them specifically if they saw grass/corn/bamboo moved by a phasing Spirit and they said they did, and it wasn't one, it was several people who told me that. I don't think several people lie, especially when they have no reason to.
The Spirit just ended her power, it was obvious she is on cooldown, nobody not rank 20 would fall for that.
No the other grass didn't move because she doesn't make grass move. She was coming from his far right. There is absolutely no way she was able to get right behind him without making ANY other blade of grass move. And it only moves a split second before she appears on screen, which means she was ending her phase walk and was in a post phase state. If she did make grass move during the actual phase walk you would have seen an invisible thing push through all that grass around him. That didn't happen in the video. The grass moves and literally frames later she appears on screen. That is post phase walk NOT phase walk.
Go try it I'm telling you she does not make grass move. Try it, stand in some grass and have your friend walk around you as Spirit. It won't move. I've tested this extensively, grass/corn does not move. You are welcome to make your own video where you prove me wrong.
Well, Stridor counters Iron Will and not looking directly at the survivor counters Spine Chill. Plus, Doctor has specific add-ons to show auras when Madness tier up and these add-ons counter Calm Spirit. Also, Iron Will is garbage against Plague and Spine Chill doesn't work against Scratched Mirror Myers.
1 That Spirit had Mother Daughter Ring, she could make that distance. Even when she appeared, it was clear that she came from the pallet, that's why the other grass didn't move. She was still phasing because she was still invisible.
2 This is again is not the only video where I saw grass moved by a invisible Spirit, but it was the most recent one.
3 I like you call people "full of #########" even if you don't know anything about them. Not all people from Reddit are Omega survivors biased, there are also nice people who actually know something about balance. So practically you said you are the only one right and the other are wrong, right ?
4 I don't need to test anything in KYF when I saw it happening in game and other people did as well.
"Not looking at survivors counters Spine Chill" yea but it's very difficult to do. Also just realizing a survivor has Spine Chill is difficult. Iron Will at least has a dead giveaway that you won't hear them even when you are right behind them.
Those add-ons do counter Calm Spirit, but if you just stay in Madness 3 he can never find you unless he also sees the Doc illusions.
Scratched Mirror Myers is super easy to beat because he is slow and can't get bloodlust. So you run to any decent loop and infinite him. If you don't see him, just assume that he is nearby, you can usually find a spot on any map where it would be impossible for him to come toward you without you physically seeing him. Also Calm Spirit soft counters SM Myers because he still disturbs crows. So if you run Calm Spirit then suddenly hear crows going off near you and it's SM Myers, just start running. It could be another survivor but if you have Bond or are in an SWF you can eliminate that problem easy.
@Marcus if you aren't willing to test it then how are we supposed to settle this for good?