NuclearBurrito
NuclearBurrito
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Let me rephrase. It only applies for the 1v1 at the end.
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@YaiPa said:
Well, we need to find out why the other competitors failed:
-friday the 13th: in-game chat was essential and there were ton of shy people/ without a mic. You could not even decide to as Jason. The licence of Jason basically ruined their budget.
-last year: heavily survivor sided, no progression system (to these days), discord store 1 year exclusive. I remember that only after 1 week they were already paying for sponsored lives...
Imo hide or die is just gonna be another last year, it will barely see play in the long run. Dbd is so unique, and the only real competitor was Soul at stake, because it was a legit ripoff, similar mechanics, yet good atmosphere and theme.
Hide or die actually isn't applicable to being Survivor sided or not.
Unlike other similar games it's symmetrical.
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@Raven014 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/607873#Comment_607873
I mean, my only disagreement was looking up. Legion relies on knowing the initial location of the survivor he's chasing. Everything else is fine.
Maybe looking down like he does when exiting frenzy now is better...
I didn't play him when he was strong though. Could he see scratches/blood?
Legion has never been strong.
And he could never see scratch marks, this version and the original version can still see blood however
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@Raven014 said:
That charge up seems kind of bad... looking up? Seriously? You could lose your survivors. Roaring out loud isn't great either... maybe you could make it like the end sound instead of a roar, per se...
Instead you could use the animation he has for ending frenzy at the beginning as well... maybe altered to show them powering up.
I mean, working to a frenzy makes sense, but looking up to do so is ridiculous.
Causing you to break LoS is the entire point. Everything else is mostly (but not entirely) uberbuffing him from there.
He's faster in Frenzy, faster to exit frenzy, longer duration after a hit (although if that is enough for that situated is currently being debated) and extra utility from deep wounds.
To counterbalance this he has the self stun, his power isn't paused during vaults, pallets are not always vaulted and mending doesn't take as long.
This is compared to old Legion mind you. There are more differences compared to new legion of course.
The sound doesn't HAVE to be a roar, it just needs to be a distinctive audio cue and a roar was the most fitting sound that came to mind.
But yeah, looking up and thus having a serious risk of losing the Survivor if you aren't careful is deliberate. It's supposed to make sure his weaknesses are exploitable so we don't end up with the no skill killer we started with. And thus the buffs are there to both fix his initial power imbalance without addons and counterbalance his weaknesses so that they aren't crippling.
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He's alright
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@No_Mither_No_Problem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/607477#Comment_607477
Well I was talking about my Legion rework, for obvious reasons.
Your fix has fundamentally different design goals.
I'm trying to make something as close to the original Legion as possible without bringing back his cheese and lack of interesting counter play, while maximizing lethality as much as is reasonable without breaking him (which as we can see is a very fine line to walk).
You're trying to take the current Legion and improve on his stall potential. That's not invalid or anything, but it's different enough that it's hard so say that one is just better. Stronger maybe, but not better.
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@No_Mither_No_Problem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/607379#Comment_607379
"32% is the absolute minimum we can let him use his power at. Since anything less and he would fail to get a hit in even at 0 meters."
Not true at all. If you get close to the Survivor in your first Frenzy, you could easily catch them with a second short burst if you put them into an uncompromising position. It can be as simple as mindgaming them normally and then turning on Frenzy when you lunge. And besides, just because the minimum might be too low doesn't mean that waiting for it to just be higher before activating Frenzy isn't out of the question.
I know it's just personal experience, but having the minimum recharge so low was what allowed me to do well with old Legion when it came to chaining hits. In my honest opinion, the fact that he needs to have all of his power back is what nerfed him the most. Having it readily available soon after losing it was what made it good for hitting people quickly.
Nonono. With old legion and with your legion 25% is fine.
But here 25% of the duration is not 25% of the relative distance.
Remember, there is a 0.75 second startup.
So if the Survivor is literally right on top of you when you use Frenzy, then by the time you start moving they are 3 meters away assuming that they started to run (which we are).
It takes 1.875 seconds to cover that 3 meter distance so anything less than that is a loss in distance even before the cooldown starts, so you will never hit them. This math was all factored into the 6.6 base effective range I've mentioned a few times.
Again for reference, the Spirit has an effective range of 9.2.
If the startup wasn't there then this Legions effective range would be 9.6 instead btw. But the startup exists for non-balance reasons in the first place so it's not something I'd consider changing for this to work.
I'm not saying we can't mess with the cooldown, just that simply tweaking it to work like old Legion isn't going to cut it.
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Btw. Idk if you'd call this a benefit, but if we make the duration 8 seconds instead of 6 seconds then the total speed is an average of 4.5, which means that using the power gets you a longer distance than walking normally would, rather than just being burst movement.
Right now it doesn't unless you actually hit someone.
@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/607379#Comment_607379
I'm too sleepy to think about numbers and stuff. Give me the numbers and I'll change them on the post, if you guys have an idea ofc.
I'll ping you if we can figure out something good. For now I'm just playing with the Numbers to see what happens.
Most of it is fine as is in most standard situations (such as the ones listed in the play, counterplay section) but since one of the situations where it DOESN'T work is an important one, that means something needs tweaking, at least a little bit.
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@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/607283#Comment_607283
That can also be a change. And i agree with it. It's exactly as @NuclearBurrito said, the numbers can be changed so it is the most balanced and effective as possible.
If there is a case that he can't catch a survivor, the bar will refill quickly up. I think that the correct value should be 45% not 25% nor 60% but still... he can catch survivors more easily with these changes.
32% is the absolute minimum we can let him use his power at. Since anything less and he would fail to get a hit in even at 0 meters.
I don't think that's the right approach.
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@No_Mither_No_Problem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/607262#Comment_607262
Even if you stand absolutely still and only start running when the Legion turns around to chase you, he would need to hit that first Survivor in under 3.5 seconds to catch you.
Need proof? I’ll do the math.
Legion runs at 5.6 MPS. A running Survivor runs at 4 MPS. This means that Legion catches up to a running Survivor at a rate of 1.6 MPS. When Killer Instinct activates, this iteration of Legion stays in Frenzy for 12 seconds. Multiply that by 1.6, and the Legion covers 19.2 meters more than a running Survivor in that time. This means that to outpace the Legion in a Frenzy, you need to be more than 19.2 meters away from him.
Put more simply, Legion covers 67.2 meters in FF, sure, but a running Survivor covers 48 meters in that same time. The difference between the two is only 19.2 meters.
So let's say he starts chasing after someone, and you don't run until he turns around to chase you. He is running away from your position at a rate of 5.6 MPS. In a mere 3.5 seconds, he runs 19.6 meters away from your location—already more than the distance you need to be from him to outrun him.
At a closure rate of 1.6 MPS, this means that in order to hit that first Survivor within 3.5 seconds, the Survivor needs to start running from his Frenzy when he is 2.1875 meters away.
2.1875 meters. A Survivor can walk more distance than that in a second—2.26 meters, to be exact.
And this is all if the second Survivor stands stock still until the Legion activates his Frenzy. So you can see why even with a suboptimal path, running away screws him over.
Ok makes sense, sooo... solutions (because yeah I didn't take into account the legion's MS away from the 2nd Survivor when I wrote this. Whoops):
- Increase the Frenzy speed even further
- Increase Frenzy duration even further
Note: if Frenzy is able to cover 120 meters in it's duration for any reason, then that means he is able to catch any Survivor from anywhere before taking into account the actual walls ect (which obviously are important), this is because the largest map has a diameter of 120.
- Decrease the cooldown (not the fatigue time although I'm already decreasing that to 2 here). Basically the approach you mentioned sort of.
- Something wacky
Increasing the duration is possible, but not something I'd want to do. Mostly because I'm not wanting to make it too easy for the Legion to get that first hit. That being said a 2 second increase to base time is conceivable (and thus a 4 second increase for the follow up time). For the record that would be a 22.4 effective follow up range.
Increasing the speed is problematic for the same reason, but also just isn't as effective as you would expect unless you increase it by a large amount.
Now decreasing the cooldown actually wouldn't have a positive effect here. In this legion suggestion the cooldown is 15 seconds to fill to max. Technically he can use it after only 9 seconds but that's only with a duration of 3.6 which will only hit within 2.76 meters (0.75 second startup is a core part of this whole thing).
That being said, in order to get inside his max range of 6.6 he needs to gain 22.2 meters on the survivor from where he would already be.
If the Survivor stopped moving immediately after your Frenzy ended then that would take 5 seconds, however if they keep running then it's going to take an entire 55.5 seconds (since it's 0.4 M/S) in any case, they are going to reach the end of the map before you get to them. And more importantly your power will be back well in advance even if we change nothing about it (all of this is ignoring the fatigue btw).
TLDR: Optimal Survivors in an empty field will never get chain hit by anything other than maybe traps.
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@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/607216#Comment_607216
Yeah, but when you chase someone, you always cut the path shorter. That is why he gets chained hits.
They know your starting location as part of the premise of the situation. They'd be running in a straight line away from you.
They'd need to be heading for a dead end withing 40ish meters (which is possible but mathematically suspect)
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@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/607153#Comment_607153
"The amount of distance you travel is irrelevant. What matters is how fast you can catch up to a running Survivor."
What do you mean is irrelevant? If frenzy only ables you to run 2 seconds at 6 ms(for example) it should be very good, as you're saying it is.
point 1- Legion can travel a lot and can catch them, survivors aren't omniscient and know where you are all the times. Legion has a small terror radius (24 meters) and with our without M&A he can catch multiple survivors with his power. He is really fast so he can catch up fast and far.
point 2- What i said makes a LOT but i mean A LOT of difference. Even if the survivor runs away to the opposite side you can still catch them, and fast. Those "leagues" of distance can be compensated by the distance and quickness that you can catch them.
No he's right. It's relative distance that matters not absolute distance.
Basically take the Legions speed and subtract 4 M/S. That's what you use to calculate his effective range, which is 6.6 for the first hit and 19.2 for additional hits.
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@No_Mither_No_Problem said:
@NuclearBurrito Also, I made a miscalculation. If you’re running towards one Survivor at 5.6 MPS, and the second one is running away at a rate of 4 MPS, then there is a total of 9.6 meters of distance being put between the second Survivor and you every second. This means that the Survivor reaches the distance needed to outpace your Frenzy if you chase the first Survivor for longer than 2 seconds. You would literally need to be right on top of them by the time one of them is within hitting range.
Ok so by THAT math (thinking about it that does make more sense and I made the same mistake myself) the Legion would need to be able to travel WAY faster in order to make chain hitting work, even in theory.
How the heck does anyone get chain hits again? Anyways:
Using the 9.6 M/S* 5 seconds we get that the survivor is 48 meters away. In order to catch up from that distance in 12 seconds the Legion would need to move at 8 M/S. Obviously that's unreasonable.
Something we COULD (technically) do is double the time (thus making it 24 seconds) again. Since that would mean that the Legion could literally Frenzy across the entire map, meaning that the Survivor would be forced to stop running away at some point ant would have to start running in something other than a straight line away from the Legion, at which point the Legion starts gaining ground significantly faster than 1.6 M/S.
Another option would be trying to increase the initial speed further, since if it's something like 6 M/S at all times then the initial time spent running away would be smaller. Specifically it would be 40 meters of distance. That would require 20 seconds of running at that speed, however that can be fudged in if needed.
Anyways though, looking at these numbers really makes me question how the hell Legion gets chain hits. Because he DOES get chain hits, even if it's not consistently. Do Survivors just not bother to run away? Or are we still underestimating the length of a meter and thus the initial distance is much shorter than we think it would be? For example if we started with 3 meters instead of 8 then the 2nd Survivor would end up a far more manageable 18 meters away. Sure that sounds insanely close but somehow Legion is currently able to get chain hits off sometimes and the math doesn't check out for that with larger distances.
BTW. If we set his speed to 6 M/S then he would be able to hit anyone in his terror radius exactly (given a straight line, but since both most people will be closer or further than that and lunges exist ect that's still pretty close).
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lets move this here, since it has nothing to do with your suggestion and is instead about THIS suggestion.
Anyways:
So starting with the 13 meters you calculated it takes 8.125 seconds to reach them, meaning you have 3.87500 seconds to spare on vaults ect.
Ok so, when a Survivor vaults a pallet or fast vaults a window it takes them 0.5 seconds. Since it takes you 0.9 seconds that means they gain 0.4 seconds of distance.
0.4*4 = 1.6 meters or in other words 1 second. Add in 0.9 and each vault costs the legion 1.9 seconds of time.
1.9*2 = 3.8 so that means he can afford 2 vaults and still hit the Survivor.
There aren't that many places on most maps where there are 3 or more vaults close enough together for that which are also forced, especially since you can hit people immediately after a window vault and during any vault, so if they only barely make it then that isn't going to cut it since the Legion will just lunge and secure the hit.
AND you've just (explicitly) assumed there is no mindgame. Some windows and pallets don't have a mindgame sure, but many of them do and that can sometimes save you time. Sure they can see you through the window if you just stand there, but if you start running in one direction and then turn back to vault then that can mess up their movement a bit, which might let you get to them slightly faster if successful and that can be enough to secure a hit.
Probably not as applicable as in a standard M1 situation, but the possibility is there.
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@Marcus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/606784#Comment_606784
Spirit's charge time without add-ons is 1,5 seconds, not 2.
Is it?
Ok in that case it would be 9.2 meters.
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Ok this is actually getting a bit off topic tbh.
If you want to talk more about our rework then you can comment on the thread for it.
The existence of an alternative rework idea doesn't invalidate this idea anyways.
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@No_Mither_No_Problem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/606754#Comment_606754
So, you basically just admitted that Feral Frenzy’s hit-chaining capabilities are still weak with your rework, further nerfing any pressure he may have in exchange for a more “lethal” four-hit-down power.
In both the current and past version of Legion he wouldn't be even close to hitting both Survivors in my Situation.
Old Legion would be 7.94500 meters short from the 2nd survivor and Current Legion would be 10 meters short.
Being able to hit these survivors anyways despite a decent initial distance (5 meters is more than you would give credit for) is excellent chain hitting capability's. No other Killer comes anywhere close to damaging Survivors that quickly and unless your name is Sally or Max, Killers don't tend to cover ground as quickly as you would expect even when using their powers.
Even Spirit who's power is insanely fast only gains about 7 meters depending on addons. (2 second activation time so +8 initial distance, 7.04-4=3.04, 3.04*5= 15.2, 15.2-8=7.2)
This is only a little bit below that for the first hit and more than double that for any additional hits.
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@No_Mither_No_Problem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/603820#Comment_603820
I'm sorry, but I just disagree as a whole with your philosophy regarding Legion at his bare fundamentals. There's no way a power like Feral Frenzy can be fair and balanced if it can achieve downs. It's pure fantasy. Legion is fine as an M1 Killer; his short stature is not a double-edged sword unless you struggle to track Survivors and the Deep Wound VFX pay dividends (mostly back before the nerf), I can assure you. Keep in mind, I did well as an M1 Legion back when his base movement speed was slower. If I can M1 at 110 speed, then you can do it at 115.
Besides, even if it were good at chasing, that matters little if the Legion has no stall, because genrushing is simply too powerful of a strategy. Feral Frenzy works best as a pressure tool, not a chase tool.
ANYTHING can be balanced with the right Numbers. You just need to actually work through it.
This is why I try to avoid variables when describing an idea. Instead of just assuming that a specific number is fine, I actually calculate which numbers to use.
For example 5.6 M/S is needed to help make up for the 1 second self stun. Because part of the whole point of doing this it doesn't COMPLETELY make up for it (he gains 1 extra meter) but it means it's a reasonable 6.6 meters gained on the survivor (which means you would get pretty close to a survivor before using it). Old legion was 7.68 meters btw.
If you wanted to make it completely cancel out btw you would want a speed of 5.78 M/S. But the idea here was to make it so you'd need to be close to hit the first Survivor but that additional survivors could be relatively far away (19.2 meters to be exact).
For example if you walk up to Survivors working on a generator within 5 meters (probably with M&A) and activate Frenzy, and they both start running in opposite directions. The first survivor you will hit in 5 seconds no problem, the second survivor you will barely hit using a lunge.
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@No_Mither_No_Problem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/606628#Comment_606628
The problem is, your proposed rework has three ungodly terrible changes that will utterly destroy Legion’s ability to chain hits:
- Losing 15% of your Frenzy when vaulting a pallet or window, making the chaining-hits aspect of Frenzy even more heavily countered by pallets and windows than it is right now.
- Killer Instinct becoming aura-based, allowing Survivors to use aura-canceling abilities to hide themselves from the Legion and avoid being found during a Frenzy.
- Deep Wound’s pathetically short 15-second mend time being reduced even further, down to 10 seconds.
It all comes down to math.
Right now while vaulting Legions power depletion is paused. A 15% drain is simply what would happen if there was no pause.
The ability is deliberately hard to hit because the reward for doing so is far higher than in the current iteration or even the initial iteration. Using it and then canceling for example can easily lead to a 10 second chase from healthy.
The mending time is mostly because no one likes mending and thus making it as short as we can afford to is good, the power (due to the shorter cooldown among other things) is much more lethal and has utility in being a whispers lite. So having mending take too long in addition to that is too much.
That being said don't underestimate the presence of skill checks. It means that the Legion can approach someone mending more easily letting him take advantage of the brief moment of vulnerability in one way or another.
It can also drain faster.
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Not. Listen closer and have an extra perk slot.
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@DocOctober said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/606573#Comment_606573
It does somewhat as both give a strong second chance in the endgame scenario and unlike NOED, Adrenaline has no reliable counter to stop it from activating.
I didn't say they don't have similarities. But that's not what makes 2 or more mechanics connected.
You nerf something in response to nerfing another thing if the nerf to the 2nd thing is a buff to the 1st. Or vice versa.
For example, the Enduring sidegrade is a DS buff and a SF buff due to both of those perks having an interaction with Enduring. And a buff to Sloppy butcher is also a buff to Thanatophobia. However a buff to Sloppy Butcher is NOT a nerf to self care and botany, because even though they are effecting the same mechanic (healing) they are NOT effecting each other, that is to say that even with SB you still get the full effect of both perks.
If Adrenaline it nerfed it's Sloppy that would need to be nerfed in response, not NOED. Since Adrenaline completely cancels out Sloppy while losing none of its effect, making it as if the Killer wasn't running Sloppy to begin with.
So for NOED:
If NOED is nerfed, then Small game, Maps and Detectives Hunch would be nerfed by this change, and ToTH would be buffed. So in order to maintain the current balance additional changes to those perks would be needed.
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@switch said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/606566#Comment_606566
That's the worst way possible to gen rush, would rather have 3 survs on 3 different gens while the 4th gets chase.
thats 3 gens gone in 80 seconds, if not less with toolbox meta aka 60% within 80 seconds.
but don't worry gen rush isn't a thing 2Head.
I know. That's the point I'm making.
Someone was claiming gens were done in 20 seconds.
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@Enriro said:
If you want to nerf noed you should nerf adrenaline :D
NOED and Adrenaline do not interact with each other. So a nerf to one does not imply a nerf to the other
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4 survivors generator completion base time is 28.57 seconds.
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5. Something about stealth
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Regarding a generator indicator.
It would actually have a psychological effect, specifically that "oh ######### I don't want to look useless to my fellow survivors so I should get on a generator".
Thus having the indicator motivates you to help the other Survivors by doing gens.
It also means if someone is hooked it's (usually) clear if someone is about to go for an unhook by the fact that they'd suddenly stop doing gens but not enter a chase.
One thing I'd like to add, Survivors should have an indicator when a Survivor is in the Killer's terror radius (the Killer shouldn't obviously). This most importantly would include a Survivor on the hook.
This could just be highlighting the body portion of their portrait in something like orange with it getting more intense the closer they are.
This isn't anything SWF don't regularly communicate. "He's on me"
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@savevatznick said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/606140#Comment_606140
Well, ideally, survivors would have their Item slot be open to choice between Flashlight, Toolbox, Medkit, Map, and Key (Firecrackers for events), and have two add-on slots which modify the function of those items. To sum it up, the items should function much the same as killer powers : They're abilities survivors have that are balanced at the baseline, and can be modified with add-ons which function as side-grades. Keep in mind that none of these items nor add-ons should run out.
For example, a survivor could choose the tool-kit as their Item, and then pick an add-on to the tool-kit that exchanges an amount of charges for increased repair speed, making them able to complete gens in a different manner than if the took a different add-on.
The next game, they could decide that isn't working for them, and simply use the basic "baseline power level" tool-kit with no add-ons for a longer lasting tool-kit that repairs at a slower speed more reliably.
You could CHOOSE to run without an item (survivors seem to function fine without them, to be honest), but the idea is that survivors could specialize around working with their items just as killers work with their powers - there'd be no reason not to equip an item because they all confer SOME benefit with no real downside.
Obviously, it'd require rebalancing the game nd such, but I think it's better than some days having that Purple flashlight with Incandescent bulb in your inventory, and other days having a measly Yellow Flashlight no add-ons at all. It'd encourage experimentation with different add-ons and playstyles because you wouldn't be afraid of losing that ultra-rare whatsit in a bad game. Consistent power is key here, and I feel like if the game was built from the ground-up around consistent, reliable power as opposed to unreliable,chance-based power, it'd be healthier and more easy to balance in the future. It'd also get rid of the terrible bloodweb grind for add-ons that everyone hates so much.
Keys, now that I think about it, throw a bit of a wrench into the spanner because they function like an ebony morii does - it deletes gameplay and ends the round prematurely. Perhaps keys should be restricted to only aura-reading, or some other, more versatile benefit aside from hatch-opening. Currently, they're balanced around "You won't see them every game, so even if they are extremely powerful, they're not crashing the party all the time", which, as I said, DOES NOT WORK if the game is to be balanced competitively.
So, to answer your question, items and their add-ons would work like killer's powers and their add-ons. Side-grades based on personal choice. Switching your item as a survivor would be like switching to a different killer with a different power, and the add-ons go from there.
What about chests? And perks like pharmacy would be practically useless with that change
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Medkits are WAY faster and also effectively allow for an extra perk. So just bring those instead.
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How would that work with items?
Or in otherwords, how do you balance having an item so that it's equivalent to NOT having an item? Just like how you are proposing that addons should be null in terms of balance impact.
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you aren't healing yourself THAT many times in a single trial.
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Hand them a medkit and point out that it's twice as fast.
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@BBQnDemogorgon said:
@NuclearBurrito Name something else the killer can do at end game that doesn't disadvantage like going to a door.
An anti camp mechanic that just gives free escapes garbage big doo doo poo poo mechanic.
Slugging everyone.
Also if they've gotten all 5 generators done AND had the time to 99% a door, then the escape wasn't free.
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@BBQnDemogorgon said:
@NuclearBurrito You can't camp a body/downed survivor while going across the map to open a door.
You open the door start the collapse but lose the reason they would want to stay in meaning they just leave.
Oh no. Anything but an anti-camp mechanic.
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The Killer can open the doors himself to counterplay this.
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No. Maps don't kill people. Killers IN maps kill people.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/605615#Comment_605615
I wouldn't count on that (the pallet bit, not the library part). Generally we try to keep things consistent throughout the game. Imagine being a new player and trying to remember what the pallet looks like on each map. On one map it's a pallet, on another it's a bookshelf, on a third it's a stack of boxes, etc. It would be very confusing for something that you need to be able to recognize instantly.
You all heard it here first. Library map is 100% confirmed!
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I just want to say. That video is SO satisfying.
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@Glipngr said:
While it is true that the win condition is for each person to escape on their own, it does not change the fact that you need each other to survive, and if none of the survivors played as a team at all, you would almost never be able to escape.
If it was possible to escape the normal way without needing teammates, then I'd concede that it isn't a team game, but that fact that you NEED your teammates in order to do all the gens and get out the door is what makes it a team game for me personally. If it was a 1v1 from start to finish against the killer, you'd lose 100% of the time. It is the team you have that allows you to stand any kind of chance.
Your example of a deathmatch is a good one for games where you could team up but don't need to. However, Dead by Daylight is a game where, as the survivor, you NEED your team. You could camp hatch every game, but that's not playing the game the way it's intended. In almost no circumstance can you play the game the way it's meant to be played alone and survive.
If it were multiple 1v1's, you'd have 0 obligation to go back for your teammates at any point in the game, and they'd have no obligation to go back for you, yet all of us here who play survive know that unhooking a survivor is a must, and to not leave them from first hook til death.
Left 4 Dead is actually a great example of how this is a team game with separate win conditions. Left 4 Dead in undoubtedly a team game. I can't think of anybody who would argue against that. With that said, it is entirely possible to leave teammates behind at the end of every campaign to save your own skin. That doesn't make L4D not a team game, it makes it a team game where you have to make sacrifices. Everyone's win condition in L4D is the same: survive. Yet you play as a team, and when the time comes, you have to decide whether to go back for a teammate or save yourself. Same as DbD. You are a team with the same objective, which is surviving. Since you're 4 different people, you all want to survive, and so sometimes you've gotta make sacrifices in order to do so. It doesn't diminish your role as a team, it just means that sometimes everyone can't make it.
@Glipngr the mechanics of the game DO allow you to beat the game normally on your own.
You are incredibly unlikely to do so, but there is a perk to make it easier (left behind) and an achievement for succeeding.
So it is possible for 3 survivors to immediately DC or die on 1st hook or whatever and then for the final survivor using a build like Left behind, Poised, Sole Survivor, Object of Obsession, to evade the Killer (who for whatever reason decides not to close the hatch) for the entire game and successfully power all 5 generators in order to escape.
Probable? No. Optimal? Definitely not. Possible? yes.
I mean, using your logic where do we draw the line?
Ok so obviously players with contradictory wincons are not on a team. But are ALL players with compatible wincons on a team?
What about games where cooperation is NOT optimal. Such as if there are significantly less resources than are needed to reliably win, and thus killing others to take their stuff is optimal even if not required.
What about games where cooperation is technically optimal but not particularly encouraged? Like in the example with survivors in social deduction games.
And we could keep going. Approaching mathematically required, at what point can we say a game is a team game instead of just a solo game where cooperation is a decent idea.
Is Cursor.io a team game? You CANNOT win by yourself (mathematically impossible) however at the same times the ones who cooperate are the least likely to advance at any given moment.
I've always just defined a team as a group of players who win together, that is to say the victory of one implies the victory of everyone else in the group and the loss of one implies the loss of everyone in the group. A group can be allies without being a team but all teams must always win and lose together in order to be a team.
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Does this matter at all?
Even if someone was just mashing on the keyboard without even understanding english their arguments would be equally valid.
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@SunderMun said:
SWF with multiple instaheals doesn't really justify noed in most cases though...
Mostly because you would need to equip NOED before knowing about any instant heals.
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^^
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That is really cool. I've always thought it shouldn't have a cooldown.
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@Steve0333 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/604637#Comment_604637
So plague is unfairly super strong then if she runs play with your food? You can get 15% MS with that.
considering it's limitations it's not unfair.
But yeah 15% extra MS will make a hell of a difference in a chase. So she is super strong so long as she can keep stacks of it.
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literally
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@Steve0333 said:
Freddy is still an m1 killer so what if you run NOED? It's fair game IMO.
Funny thing is survivors will tell you "don't cleanse against the plague!" which basically gives her NOED throughout the entire game but according to popular wisdom that's the best way to win against her. Oh yeah and she's weak.
Micheal Myers basically has a built in NOED that occurs way before the end game if you run an infinite tier 3 addon. Actually it's much better than NOED since there isn't a totem survivors can cleanse to get rid of it.
4% MS makes all the difference.
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I too hate feeling for someone else.
Being an unfeeling robot is so much better
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Russian roulette build is fun
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/603397#Comment_603397
Although good MOST of the time, sometimes all that ToTH tells you is you’re about to lose your hex at the furthest end of the map right at the beginning of the trial.
Na man. It tells you that someone on the other side of the map is about to be yoinked by my spirit.
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@Glipngr said:
"a group of players forming one side in a competitive game or sport."
That is the definition of team. When you join a lobby, you are put with 3 other players who are considered one side of the game. The other side of the game consists of a killer. Like I said in the post, the survivors do not have to work together, communicate, or even escape together to be considered a team. In fact, there doesn't have to be ANY indication that they are on a team, and they'd still be a team. You can never see another player in the game and the survivors would still be considered a team, because they all share one objective that if one of them completes, they all get the benefits from.
While it's true that some players like to try and kill their teammates, they are still on that team, which is why doing so is so frowned upon. It's a betrayal. People team kill in other games all the time and are still considered a team, so why would team killing in this game be any different? And before you say "Well they aren't directly killing each other, so it's not team killing," it is still team killing because you are purposely ending the life of someone on your side.
It does not matter how much one person or another contributes to the team, they are all a team, and it does not matter whether their main objective is to get out together or with everyone else, they still are designed to work together to "win" the game. If you've ever played a game like TF2, Mario Party, or Left 4 Dead, you'd know that just because you're on a team does not mean that you always have to stay with your team. If you survive and leave first, you're a member of a team that survived. If one dies within the game, they are a member of the team that did not survive. You're still a team, no matter the outcome.
Except you DON'T have the same wincondition as the other survivors.
My wincondition is for Me to survive while Your wincondition is for You to survive.
Relative to each other we are neutrals.
Compare that to something like tf2, where our wincons are ACTUALLY the same. And thus your win is my win and my win is your win. THAT is what makes something a side.
However, in this case my win condition technically has nothing to do with yours. It only just so happens that fullfilling my wincon makes it easier for you to fulfill yours in most cases. But that doesn't mean we are on the same side, when push comes to shove I'm obligated to leave you behind and save my own skin.
The Survivors don't actually mean the 1 requirement for being on a team. Specifically they are NOT on the same side, but rather slightly different sides.
Just like how in ffa deathmatch everyone has a very similar wincon but the difference in who it refers to causes people to conflict. The only difference here is that the Survivors wincons aren't mutually exclusive, however that doesn't make them a team. Just look at any game with a variety of wincons. For example in social deduction games it is common to have roles who's wincons are to survive. When 2 or more of those roles spawn, no one would say they are on a team. If they find each other they will likely cooperate for mutual benefit when possible, however at the end of they day they are each Neutral in that they are only interested in themselves in terms of winning.
It's the same here. This isn't a team vs team game, it's multiple 1v1's.
This is actually why the game is so hard to balance. If you have 1 amazing players and 3 terrible ones with a pain old good killer, then who should win? Obviously the 3 terrible ones shouldn't, but what about the amazing one?
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I'd just like to say. The Survivors are not a Team.
They do not win together and thus they are allies at best.
Since the Survivor "team" cannot win, only the individuals can and only if they individually complete their objective and escape. In fact in some specific instances a Survivor might purposefully sabotage another Survivor's chance of winning in order to take a win for themselves. No that is not working with the Killer since they are still simply attempting to optimize their own win.