NuclearBurrito
NuclearBurrito
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660814#Comment_660814
So killer lost because 2 escaped? SMH no, they only lost if they depipped. This is exactly the problem with using escapes/kills as measurements of a win. By this logic, the killer's win condition is near impossible at red ranks, and conflicts with the whole philosophy of balance "2 die 2 escape".
If you pip you win. It doesn't matter what else happens because there are like a millions things that can happen. What if a survivor willingly sacrifices themselves to save someone else. Did they lose because they died? No. If they pipped from doing that, then they won. If they just left and did nothing all game, then they don't deserve to win and will depip from that.
Escapes are not a win, I did not say they were, and in fact argue AGAINST that very notion. You can get a pip without escaping, and you can escape without pipping. Therefore escapes are not a valid measure of a win because there are different results.
Yes! The Killer's win condition IS near impossible at red ranks and it DOES conflict with the 2k goal (unless they want really swingy games)!
That's why so many people want most Killers to be buffed and why I've said quite often that a 2.7k average would be ideal rather than a 2k average.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660800#Comment_660800
No there is no other measure of a win. If you do well, you pip, therefore you win. You can't do poorly and pip. It doesn't happen. If you do poorly you depip, which is a loss.
You can't say escaping/killing are win conditions purely because of the pip system. The fact you can die and still pip or 4k and still depip are proof of this. Not to mention, how does this work when you factor in 4v1? If 2 survivors escape, did those 2 win and the others lose? What about the killer? Did they win or lose? You can't say, you need some form of actual measurement that you won, which is what the pip is designed to be.
There is no leap in logic. Play well = pip = win. Play poorly = depip = loss.
If 2 survivors escaped and 2 survivors died then the 2 that escaped won and the other 2 lost.
The Killer also lost because he failed to Kill the 2 Survivors that escaped, thus he hasn't completed his win condition of Killing the Survivors.
It's pretty easy to measure this using the icons at the end. The door symbols represent survivors that won, the skulls and DC symbols represent survivors that lost. The Killer wins by making all 4 survivors lose so you just need to have 4 skulls in order to know you've won.
And you STILL haven't provided evidence for pips being a win. You've just SAID they are a win and then concluded that escaping isn't as a result.
Your entire argument is essentially:
- Either pips are a win or Escapes are a win, it can't be both because you can have one without the other
- Therefor pips are a win
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660770#Comment_660770
Pips are the only consistent measure of success. If you pip you have to have played well, especially at high ranks. However the same is not true when talking about escaping or getting kills.
Pips are the only valid win condition.
Again, you are just making the claim without backing it up.
Where does it actually say that pipping is winning?
Don't just make the claim, DEMONSTRATE EVIDENCE for the claim.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660750#Comment_660750
Still doesn't change the fact that the way the tutorial is written does not explicitly stated "you win by escaping/getting kills". There is no other valid measurement of a win in this game besides a pip because you can escape/get 4k and depip, or die/get 0k and pip. The sheer fact that can happen dismisses the idea of "escapes" and "kills" as a win.
Again if I'm writing a tutorial for baseball I can say "your goal is to hit the ball and run all the bases to score a point". That doesn't mean by virtue of doing this you won the game, because the game is won based on which tram had the most points.
"There is no other valid measurement of a win in this game besides a pip because you can escape/get 4k and depip, or die/get 0k and pip. The sheer fact that can happen dismisses the idea of "escapes" and "kills" as a win."
You are getting it backwards. You must FIRST establish that pips are a win condition before you can make claims like this.
Ranking systems in general do not necessarily reflect the win condition in all cases, so it is NOT a given, especially since it contradicts the game guide.
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@chieftaco said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660749#Comment_660749
you guys keep saying this mess about "escaping" being how you "win" the round, but you never clarify why you are able to "escape" with very little bloodpoints and not enough emblem points for even a safety pip..
if the saga continues, please try explaining how that works.. how do you "win" without "winning"?
It feels like you are pointing out a contradiction. But you haven't actually said anything that needs addressing.
You can win without getting much in terms of progression, so what?
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Killers are killing players?
Yup, checks out. Move along nothing to see here.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660731#Comment_660731
You can't rank up if you don't win, therefore whatever the condition is to rank up is a win. You don't lose and rank up.
False. Many games use ranking systems besides winning. For example overwatch not only competitive but IS an esport yet it's ranking system isn't based on wins.
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@chieftaco said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660726#Comment_660726
notice in the screenshot you posted where it constantly says "Survivors"? In the first sentence it is followed by an apostrophe, showing possessiveness. "Survivors'", or in broken english "Survivors's", not "Survivor's" singular..
just in case you missed it..
Yes? What about it? They all have that objective.
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@chieftaco said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660724#Comment_660724
i'm sorry i believe it's you that is misunderstanding. @NuclearBurrito is stating that between survivors the game is competitive not cooperative. the game itself includes 2 aspects, competitive and cooperative, and is intended for your team to cooperatively compete against the killer, again the stated "4v1" description..
people can choose to compete directly with their teammates if they want to, but then the game is a free for all, not cooperative, and it becomes a much different game.
hope that clears things up..
While technically that is true, I was talking about between all 5 players.
The 4 survivors are each competing with the Killer.
While we could have a debate about if the 4 survivors are competing with each other (My stance is that they are allies but not teammates), it misses the point since they are DEFINITELY competing with the Killer
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660726#Comment_660726
Nothing here says "x = win" though. It tells you what you need to do to EARN the win, but it doesn't explicitly say that killing survivors or escaping will give you a win.
First line:
"The Survivor's goal is to escape the trial"
That's about as direct and explicit as it gets.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660695#Comment_660695
Uhhh the results screen in the game?
If you do nothing and run out the gate you depip. That's not a win.
If survivors all kill themselves on the first hook, you're not going to pip (at higher ranks). That's not a win.
If you pip that's a win. Anything else is just a personal goal.
What's the source that pipping is a win at all.
According to the game itself winning as a survivor is escaping. Thus when you escape and depip... you have won and depipped... and that's it because winning and pipping are 2 separate things.
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@thesuicidefox In fact, not only was the game guide as a whole updated, but that specific section OF the game guide was updated.
Here is the updated screenshot:
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@chieftaco said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660673#Comment_660673
you can use many many words and paragraphs saying all kinds of things about your competitive not cooperative opinion. i ask you only one thing.. how do you explain this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/068/IOLSOIU768PB.png
incase it's not readable after posting, its a google screenshot of me typing in "dead by daylight" and both of the official dead by daylight results immediately state the game is a "4v1" game.. so what is this you're saying about this being a competitive game and not cooperative? lul :)
Correct. All PvP games are by definition competitive.
Just because you have other players on your side doesn't mean the game as a whole is cooperative.
A cooperative game is a game where all players are on the same side. Most of these games are PvE but some of them don't even qualify for being "verses" anything at all, such as puzzle games.
Portal 2's multiplayer is an example of a cooperative game.
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@Fibijean said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660674#Comment_660674
Sorry, I didn't mean to come across like I was challenging you, I was mainly just continuing the discussion. That said, I realise I didn't quite understand your earlier point - am I correct in my current understanding that what you're saying is if killers weren't able to adapt their loadouts, there would need to be changes made to perks like FD which are rendered completely useless with certain survivor builds (or lack thereof)?
Correct.
It's perfectly doable, but it's important to keep in mind stuff like that.
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@Warlock_2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660637#Comment_660637
Still a fail man. You can define what you want, but the question is what "I" define as a win. You can beat your chest and talk about competitive game all you want, but it does not change the fact that the game is balanced around the bulk of casual players. It is a casual party game and people play it for different reasons. Perhaps someone plays just to face camp a survivor each match and that is a win to them. Nothing you ever say will change that. Why? This is not a competitive game on esports level.
So, I play for fun, and my list of fun is my own, you don't have any say in it. Relax.
You don't play to win. Ok cool, just say that.
DON'T PRETEND YOU DO.
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Specifically the game guide was updated at the time of the end game collapse. So the win condition would need to have been changed AFTER the EGC update for the game guide to be considered out of date in that sense.
Considering that the Emblem system was added well before the EGC and yet the game guide (which btw is the only place in the game that mentions winning) still uses the same definitions, there is no reason to think they have changed.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660675#Comment_660675
Except the tutorial is not the game. It's outdated and been outdated for a long time.
Pipping is the only defined win condition. If you don't pip you didn't win sorry.
Source?
Also the game guide has been updated very recently.
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@thesuicidefox said:
Winning is a pip. Nothing else.
The fact you can die and still pip, the fact you can 4k and depip or 0k and pip, proves this to be the case. If your goal is to get a 4k or escape, that's fine but it's not a win as defined by the game.
@NuclearBurrito said:
I do admit there is some gray area with what counts as a win (it says the killers wincon is to sacrifice the survivors, but what about moris? Bleed outs? And how many?) . But it very obviously isn't defined in terms of pipping. And dying as a survivor is obviously never a win while escaping through the gate obviously always is one (hatch is another gray area because it specifically mentions powering all 5 generators)
The game seems to disagree with you.
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@Fibijean said:
@NuclearBurrito As I've said, I understand the benefits of allowing killers to adapt their loadout, and I don't really have a problem with that. But adapting is different to just dodging the lobby, and I feel that if killers can leave just because they decide they don't want to play against a particular build, it's not fair for survivors to not have that same chance. There may be a solution I haven't thought of yet, but the only ones I have brought up so far are that neither killers nor survivors get punished for the above (which is a bad idea considering other problems with dcs), or they receive the same amount of information about each other in the pregame lobby - that is, none (which is also a bad idea considering what you've mentioned), or they both get punished equally somehow, which is what I'm currently leaning towards.
I'm not contesting this.
All I'm doing is pointing out what other changes would need to be made for it to work properly.
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@chieftaco said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660637#Comment_660637
its a casual game, not a competitive one.. you guys with your numbers, stats, complaints, & whatever else are the ones who think you quantify a "win" in a non-competitive game..
personally i'd rather get sacrificed immediately in 400 games back to back than play one game where i watch everyone die and pretend to be a rock. would you say it's my "personal goal" that i'm accomplishing, not fun?
by the way, you're welcome for all the times people like me have pulled your sorry sack off of a hook and you've watched us die for no reason other than to secure your "win" :)
who would you say is better at the game? the person who can break a facecamping leatherface and secure a safe hook rescue or a 13k bp average per game breathing boulder? who wins in that scenario for you?
The one who escapes is the winner.
And a game being casual doesn't mean it isn't competitive.
Competitive just means you have at least 2 opposing player controlled sides. Which in DBD you do. And guess what! You need a win condition for that to work! Because otherwise you need to design around the possibility that players don't bother competing and thus end up with a game where the intended outcome isn't reached, at which point you don't have a competitive game but a COOPERATIVE game. This is why the ranking system needed to be changed from blood points, the Killer was working with the Survivors in order to maximize BP for everyone and it was defeating the point of the game due to people no longer playing to their win condition.
You can quantify a win in any game you where you can win. In games where you CAN'T win there simply is no state you can reach where you can correctly say you have won, which is just as important.
You can use that game as a basis for a DIFFERENT game which DOES have a win condition, but even if it uses the initial games code it still is a game in of itself that would need to be designed with separate considerations.
For example Minecraft is a game you can't win. But Survival Games is a game you can win. Survival Games is not Minecraft even though it's a game played within Minecraft.
And again, Mario Party's win condition is just as objective as league of legends is. Are you going to try and tell me that Mario Party isn't casual? Or are you saying that the victory screen in that game straight up lies to you sometimes?
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Franklins would need a buff to be useful on Survivors without items somehow, and both Hag and Wraith would need to be less effected by Flashlights.
If both of those things were to happen then this could be done. Should? Maybe not. But it definitely COULD be done without breaking anything besides the above (which have straight forward solutions)
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The primary benefit of seeing people in the lobby is that things like Franklins can be used such that it will always have a good benefit, and that Killers that get countered by items such as the Hag can avoid using those Killers when it would get them screwed over.
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@Warlock_2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660614#Comment_660614
Maybe to you, but not to all. You don't get to define victory to others in a casual party game. The goal is fun. You only have the power to define your version of victory.
Still not what a win is.
Personal Goal? Yes. But the distinction is important.
You know what DOES get to define victory to others? The game being played. And I have repeatedly shown that the game has an unambiguous win condition. At that point it isn't an opinion. It isn't "just to me", but it's an objective win condition and you must achieve before you can correctly say that you have won a round of dead by daylight.
But ok, lets humor you. You say the win condition is fun? How are the developers now supposed to balance with that in mind? How do they go about quantifying it in order to ensure that no character is overpowered or underpowered?
If winning is fun then how does a high level player go about optimizing a build with which to achieve this goal? In fact, how do you even determine a high level player at all? And how would you even begin to go about constructing a ranking system that puts the players who have the most fun at the highest rank and the players with the least fun at the lowest?
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@Karl_Childers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/660126#Comment_660126
Lol what?! This is insane entitlement. An escape being comparable to a 4K with 5 gens left? You would have 5 hour killer queues, who the hell would play survivor? This would kill the game.
Agreed. Escape would be comparable to a 4k in general and thus should have the same odds.
I'd estimate a 2.7k in most games (decimal number because it's an average) would be fair and have interesting results given equal 4k and escape odds.
That's because at that Kill rate you can have your odds of winning be equal for all surviving players no matter how many players that is. In otherwords even half way into the game when 2 players are alive your odds of escaping are STILL the same as the Killer getting the 4k, and thus surviving to be the final survivor will give you a 50/50 chance.
But in any case most games should have someone escape. 4K's should be only about 1/3ish games and thus someone should be escaping the remaining 2/3rds of the time.
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@Warlock_2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/652195#Comment_652195
I don't care what anyone thinks. For me, winning is having a good time. As killer, I've had good mind game wins, lots of hooks, and a few laughs. I'm good, since I play for fun.
As survivor, I've aided my team by doing some gens, or running the killer, making a risky save or performed well enough for the killer to comment on it afterwards. I'm not salty and could not care less about kills, pips, escapes, etc. Heck, I'll run back in and give the killer a kill if everyone is escaping and he is obviously new or was not horribly toxic.
Winning in a casual party game like DbD is very subjective.
That's not what winning is.
Casual or not Dead by Daylight is a competitive game.
No that's not an oxymoron. The opposite of competitive is cooperative and not casual.
Mario Party is a competitive game for example. Do you win if you have fun in Mario party? NO! You win if and only if you have the most stars.
It's the same deal here, the only difference is that instead of getting stars your goal is to either escape or murder people depending on your role. Does that mean it isn't casual? No, does a game being casual fundamentally change how win conditions work? No. Can you ignore the wincondition and do something else anyways? Sure, but do declare that something else is winning is to say that you aren't playing the same game in the first place.
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If you can see a nerf the nerf can see you.
If you can't see a nerf then you may be only seconds away from unviability.
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@Frosty said:
Omg
A) it doesnt take long to figure out the real meaning
B) I've had to look up pretty much every effect multiple times because the name does not give a discription of the effect applied. Mangled, broken, hindered, exhausted. Did any one know what these ment and how you were effected by them from the name alone???
Exhausted and Hindered I understood.
Mangled I understood because of the image that went along with it.
Everything else is indeed vague.
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@yukairi said:
I can access the ptb without having the game?
No
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@AntiJelly said:
@Jdsgames @Carpemortum @Locker_Monster @brokedownpalace @ClogWench @johnmwarner
Not to brag but...
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/84219/3-2-0-player-test-build
I told you so.
BRAGGING INTENSIFIES
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I put him at low A tier. On par with Huntress in my opinion.
Snares are good and the teleport is surprisingly good in a chase if they are asleep.
The lullaby doesn't tell you how close Freddy is at all, so you can teleport and the guy you are chasing won't know.
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@Judgement said:
I’d name ‘Exposed’ to ‘Endangered’ personally. ‘Vulnerable’ has the same issue as ‘Exposed’ in that it could literally mean anything regarding the game.
Endangered definitely means that you should GTFO, much more than Vulnerable would.
‘Exposed’ can become a status effect granted by an item or perk to alert you to the fact that your aura is being read. Maybe Distortion could have an additional effect after all tokens are gone, to state that your aura is revealed to the Killer? It should not appear on just any aura exposure though, as that can end up as a partial nerf to Scratched Mirror, other aura add-ons, and perks.
In short, ‘Endangered’ will get the point across the best way.
Vulnerable refers to the correct idea.
Exposed means visable
Vulnerable means open to attack.
Games usually use the term Vulnerable to describe where attacks will be more effective on the target.
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@FolkoSage said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/655023#Comment_655023
Ummm the killer is just spinning around trying to get lucky and hit it literally take no skill and is broken. Look at where the pig is looking and where the jake is she's not even looking at him and yet she still hit lol
Yes she is. Her red stain is pointing directly at the Jake. Thus she is looking at him.
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@Raptorrotas said:
Already discussed a lot recently, but there are a lot of
idiotspeople who dont see it as problem. Dont wanna call the out as survivormains but ir's most likely."Regression on a generator lasts until X charges are repaired" isnt really that big of a buff for regression concerning it takes ~320 seconds to regress a generator from 99% to 0%
In case anyone is wondering it takes exactly 316.8 seconds.
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@Gcarrara said:
Interesting idea. I think the perk should be disabled when carrying a survivor... Looking straight up to avoid being flashed could activate the perk involuntarily. 👍️
Probably a good idea but even then I can't imagine you'd need to do it for a full 3 seconds straight.
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@Yinnix said:
Infinite tokens with Furtive Chase
well technically not infinite, but the synergy is deliberate.
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@Peanits said:
This is precisely why we haven't just done something simple like, "Increase generator times" (at least not since early 2016, when they were increased from 60 seconds to 80 seconds). Tightening the skill gap is also out of the question, though. That essentially means "make skill not matter as much", which is a really bad move for any game. Rather, you'd want to make sure that the skill level of both sides scale equally.
(It's a whole can of worms, not going to go into it, it would be a novel and a half.)
I mean, depending on the details this isn't inherently bad.
The entire point behind QoL changes for example is making the parts of a game that aren't supposed to be where the difficulty comes from easier.
So while we could show the optimal route for looping to Survivors in the UI in theory, doing so would take away from the game.
However making notifications for generator completions also have a generator symbol on them and have a counter for the number of generators isn't a problem, since keeping track of the number of remaining generators isn't supposed to be hard to do.
Same goes for a ton of other QoL stuff, all of which tighten the skill gap without taking away from the overall experience.
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Right now you can Burn the Husk. Or at the very least determine that it's the husk and not the Spirit, using a flashlight.
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Magic
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/656535#Comment_656535
I do bones for bp
Hence why I specifically couldn't say no one. I know there would be that one guy who would correct me if I did.
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if this is to be a thing the reward would need to be in game, like with a chest, rather than for progression.
Not very many people do Totems for the BP. They do it because of the perk interactions.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/656512#Comment_656512
It's definitely way more than a mistake. Any time you blink and miss, you made a mistake. A small mistake, but it's a mistake. You can't disregard them. If you do, that's saying, "There is nothing I could have done better here." and that's not true. When you then lose that survivor at the start of the match, that's a bigger mistake. Everything at the start of the match is magnified. You need to get that pressure up ASAP.
That's not to say anything about the killer. We all make mistakes, we all have bad matches. I have my fair share as well, there's no shame in admitting it. In the same way the survivors can make a mistake and turn a good situation into a bad one in a matter of seconds, the same can happen to the killer.
You cannot expect the survivors to not do generators just because you messed up. Having the game tell you, "No, you can't do the objective yet." would be unreasonable.
I know it's not what you are talking about.
But Corrupt Intervention literally does that.
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A better solution to slowing down gens would be to speed up Killers. That way rather than the Killer being given free Gen Pressure, he is instead being given better tools with which to GET gen pressure.
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@ASAPTurtle said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/655238#Comment_655238
Putting them on a Mori list? Isn't that quite pathetic? In the end it's just a game and there's always other matches. No need to ruin someone's game because they chose to not do what you please.
I mean if they feel this strongly about it then I don't see why not. Plenty of people have Mori lists for this exact purpose. I personally don't have a Mori list because I don't give a #########, but for those that DO give a ######### such as the OP it's an option and qualifies as a consequence.
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@White_Owl said:
I don't like much the idea mainly because currently sounds are not reliable, so against a survivor with good aim a killer would have a very hard time using their power.
I like instead the idea of giving flashlights more utility, by revealing killers props and illusions. If that was the case, a little buff to how many charges flashlights have would be nice.
The only Killer it has an actually interesting dynamic with is the Spirit. You can use it to remove the husk, which is useful for catching out a mindgame but doesn't cancel out her power entirely.
What?!? Since when?
The main thing is that it isn't fair for the flashlight to be super useful against specific powers but then also be useless against everyone else.
Most Killers don't have props, so in order for a special interaction with props to be fair there needs to be a special interaction with Killers that DON'T use props.
Hence fast blinds.
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I changed the OP to say 0.3 seconds instead of instant.
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@G0lden_Ra1den said:
I think this perk would be really good with other obsession perks like Dying Light and by itself it is a good tracking perk. I also believe this perk would have really good synergy with my Play With Your Food perk rework and would promote you to higher speeds.
Exactly!
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@Larcz said:
No need if you play against wwf or with somone you know this alredy.Devs got great idea with this entity arms when i chase obsesion so every one got free info.And now you want give survs even more free info!? No!
When it comes to ally tracking we should be giving them as much free info as possible.
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@justarandy said:
This is the most important thing what is needed for solo survivors. And the best part: it doesn't buff swf groups at all.
Anyone who is against that is 100% biased towards killer, no doubt.
Not even. The entire point of these kinds of changes is to establish balance between both sides, which is ultimately beneficial to both Killers AND Solo's. So even a 100% biased Killer main should still want changes like these to go through.
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@Carpemortum said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/655669#Comment_655669
Except your post specifically says "weaker than swf" and "cheat or exploit with voice comms to gain an advantage".
Heavily implying they're good swf.
Because as we all know, most swf teams, in voice, are not pro swf teams and will not make a difference wether or not they're "cheating".
Which is what I was referring to. The fact that your entire post was based on all swf being "pro" swf.
"Oh my gawd AHHHHHHHHHH Nurse get away from me!" is the same as saying "The Nurse is chasing me go do gens".
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Death is not an escape