NuclearBurrito
NuclearBurrito
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Doesn't that make neither of them the best map? Since you just said that they are both unbalanced in one sides favor?
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Leatherface for sure.
He's far too similar to Hillbilly but is just worse in almost every situation.
Even Legion is at least unique in that his power has utility and effects that other Killer powers do not, even if it's still weak and ultimately bland once broken down. Unlike leatherface who's power is just billy's but slower.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/840704#Comment_840704
The issue you have now are measurements of outcomes. If a group of high skilled survivors go against a low skilled killer the outcome is highly likely to end in four escape. Same for a low skilled team against a high skilled killer. These type of matches need to be tossed out. Matches need to be evaluated when the skill levels of all players are near eachother.
If such a system existed, matches should be setup based on that system.
That issue isn't with the 2k balance ideal. It's a problem with the emblem system.
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@thrawn3054 said:
I think it's not that they want a 2k every match. I believe the idea is they're aiming for a balance that has that overall result. Meaning if you look at the kill rate across all the matches in a given time they will average out to a 2k. The basic idea being if you achieve that killers aren't getting steamrolled with 4 man escapes. And survivors aren't getting 4k wrecked every match.
My ACTUAL counter argument is that while neither of those individually would be happening every match.
Both of those combined WOULD be happening every match.
Meaning that 1-3k's wouldn't ever happen since it would throw it off such that the winrates for each role would be different.
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@EldritchElise87 said:
I agree that Spirit needs changes and counterplay, but a target of 2 kills is not a good idea.
2 kills is a depip/saftey, means that all the gens got done, a 2k game feels like a loss.
2k is a loss for the Killer and 2 Survivors.
I don't see the problem here. It's an average, not the mode.
2k average means half the time the Killer will 4k.
Not even that you specifically will only 4k half the time, but that the sum of all Killers will 4k only half the time.
Increasing the Kill rate would actually make that ratio go down ironically.
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@Mr_K said:
Copy paste from another thread.
2 kills 2 escape balance is BAD
At red ranks where pipping requires 13 points. A 2 kill 2 escape game would result in a black pip or a depip 9/10 times. In order to advance in this rank you have to, by BHVR's definition of balance, overperform. Thus whatever killer you choose to play will show up on the Devs stats as in need of slight tweaking.
Being that Nurse was the most popular killer at red ranks, she ofcourse would require 3-4k a match to even be there. Because she is hard to play, low rank baby Nurses usually don't perform very well balancing the numbers. But because of being the killer of choice at a rank that requires more than 2k to advance in, she was overperforming and in need
nerfsslight tweaks.Spirit, not requiring to use her power to kill low rank survivors and being effective enough to get over 2k in red ranks to rank up, is next on the chopping block. All because BHVR has two conflicting ideologies.
The issue trying to balance the game on two kills two escape is that matches are not played on even fields.
Ranking System
The ranking system itself isn't a measurement of skill but how much time you put into the game. Anonther being who you are matched against. If you constantly play against bad players you will rank up even if your skill level doesn't reflect that rank. You also have good players stay at lower ranks playing against bad players.
Matchmaking
Matchmaking pairs killers and survivors with varying ranks up to 6 in either direction. In worst case you could have survivors up to 12 ranks apart. A rank 4 killer could potentialy face four rank 10s and vice versa. It is easy to see the outcome of these types of matches.
Why 2k 2 escape?
Because it's easy. If you ignore whats behind your data it's the most logical way of balancing. Devs have said they don't purely look at the escape rate but what else do they have?
Solution?
Individual skill needs to be messured. Either this is something that can be tracked in the background or in a way the player can see. If a player can 4k with every killer then its the player that is good and not the killer they choose. There are systems already out there that measure player skill level that could be adopted. One of those is the Elo rating system that rewards points based on who you face and their score compaired to yours.
It doesn't make sense to describe an individual player as overpreforming regardless of how consistent they may be.
The whole idea behind an individual Killer or Survivor perk or whatever overpreforming is that people that take it do better than those that do not, but for an individual that is doing well it's often just due to a Skill difference rather than a mechanical advantage, in which case you would also see a lot of lesser skilled players who are NOT preforming as well.
However when checking a Killer as a whole you should ideally expect Skill to even out, since even if only the best players were using the Killer they should also be facing the best Survivors.
While there are still flaws here with the execution, the core idea of it evening out to a 2k average eventually is not itself the flaw, or rather concluding balance decisions given that ideal isn't anyways. The ideal itself has issues but it's more to do with the specific number chosen and not anything to do with the fundamental part you are trying to criticize.
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It's average, not mode.
Most games will not be 2k's even if 2k is the average.
If I had to guess the mode would be 4k.
Not because most games are 4k's, but because I would expect a more even split between 0k's 1k's, 2k's and 3k's for a variety of reasons, while a 4k is the result of an early snowball. So while a losing Killer could lose but still get a kill or 2 in anyways a winning Killer will almost always 4k, especially if they slug.
This is disproportionately true in low ranks, but even in red ranks its hard to win a 3v1 against almost any red rank Killer, meaning that if their team has a weak link that is quickly eliminated then a 4k is almost guaranteed, but when the team is escaping the Killer will sometimes secure a 1k anyways, but sometimes won't for a 0k.
Either way that makes a 4k the most common result even if it isn't the majority of games.
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@GoatyTCO said:
I'm so done with this forum, it has glitched out and deleted my post twice now..
Thanks for defending my point.
I'd like to say that I think your idea should be 9 or 10 meters instead of 8, maybe even 12, because a team may as well be running Bond for mechanical purposes, rather than this perk, as Bond is a full 36 (or 32) meter radius that you can see others, whereas this would require you to farm tokens to reach that. The reason I'm saying this is because, as BBQ & Chili is, it is it's own perk, not just a weakened version of another perk, so I feel that WGLF should work the same.
Ok sure but you get the idea right?
You'd run this on a medic build instead of empathy and then the other Survivors can easily find you when they are in trouble.
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@alphaholic said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/839142#Comment_839142
No one said to be altruistic just because it's nice lol. In fact, one of the points made above was that selfish gameplay leaves you vulnerable, and you're not going to get the hatch every time once everyone is dead, period. The game is 4v1, not 1v1v1v1 1.
Honestly, though, I am sometimes willing to sacrifice my own escape if it means I'm the only sacrifice the killer gets as opposed to them getting a 3k, and on several occasions I've gotten 30k+ bloodpoints in a match despite being the only one to die.
It's funny to me how the most obsessively competitive players are the ones who stay in green ranks forever tbh. Do you or whatever, but I'm going to do what gets me the most points and what moves me up in rank—you know, since those are literally the tangible rewards in the game. Lazy/gutless escapes and cheap 4ks get you nothing, save for perhaps a "look at me I escaped!" which idrgaf about personally. It is what it is.
The game is a Killer trying to kill 4 Survivors.
It's not a free for all because the Survivors are not competing.
But it's also not a team game because the Survivors win separately.
Trying to describe it as 4v1 or 1v1v1v1v1 is wrong in both cases. The former only allows for a binary end state of Survivors winning or the Killer winning when there is either the Killer winning or some number between 1 and 4 Survivors winning, while the latter only allows for a single winner.
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@Hag.is.Dtier said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/839030#Comment_839030
Ghostface no longer stalks survivors.
- Ghostface's kill rate has gone up by 20% after this change.
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@PigMainClaudette said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/839195#Comment_839195
Well, yeah. But I'm always near a rock or tree that he CONVENIENTLY ignores.
A good bubba (aka not me) will angle their camera such that they won't hit the obstacle. Him ignoring it is no accident.
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@PigMainClaudette said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/839172#Comment_839172
You would think, but no. I have tried it, and it doesn't work. He gets that speed boost when he launches his attack. Negating any momentum I've built up.
The speed boost is a bit after he releases the chainsaw.
And even if it wasn't he'd get the same amount of speed if he instead use the saw from a bit further back, he'd just ramp up in speed sooner.
In other words it just meant you were too far from a pallet/window even with the extra time taken into account
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Anyways he always feels so boring to face. His power is so basic and doesn't really require me to do anything I don't already do anyways.
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@PigMainClaudette said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/838981#Comment_838981
They rub against me before charging chainsaw. That's too close. And annoying.
Isn't that a good thing? It means you can get further before the instant down can get you increasing your Survival odds.
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Not happy about the basekit changes.
But I like the addon changes, including the non-prayer beads addons.
I've said many times that I think addons in general are a problem, so reducing their impact is always a plus in my book.
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@DarkGGhost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/838949#Comment_838949
Well BBQ have been seen 3 times only so this is out of the qustion.
Out of the question you say?
Because it only takes 1 time for someone to get the perk without the DLC.
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@alphaholic said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/839049#Comment_839049
It is still abundantly clear which playstyle is encouraged by how actions are rewarded. I honestly don't care if escaping is "technically" a win if I get next to nothing out of it. Same goes for killer—a 4k is cool and all, but if everyone dies on their first hook because you camp them to death there's no way you're getting a 'merciless' victory out of it or any significant number of bloodpoints. How is that fun?
All I'm saying is, there are precisely *zero* entertaining or fun plays I've ever seen that involved sandbagging teammates or camping/tunneling just to get a cheap 4k. Good players just don't play like that. Do you see many successful DBD streamers with that mindset? No. Why? Because it's boring to play that way, and it's even more boring to watch someone play that way.
Look, no one's saying you can't be selfish if you want... but there's a reason that playstyle is unpopular and that it doesn't really get you anywhere. It's totally cool & 100% your prerogative if you want to screw your teammates to escape almost every time and consider that "winning"... but you also probably earn an average of 8k bloodpoints per match and never make it past rank 16, so you'll forgive the rest of us if we're not that impressed.
Weather you care or not it's a win.
Not my fault the ranking system doesn't properly reward optimal play and tries to force specific play styles on me.
Also you shouldn't be camping not because it's a dick move, but because it's not a very effective strategy most of the time. It's just asking to be gen rushed.
Meanwhile you shouldn't usually get your teammates Killed not because "altruism always good, must rush hook at all costs" but because those other Survivors are useful. It's why I run a medic build, because the healthier the other Survivors are the longer they can loop the Killer and the more time I can spend on gens as a direct result.
And more importantly, when you ARE being super altruistic, the fact that it's not how you win makes it even more so. After all what could be more altruistic than knowingly losing just so the others can win?
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@Atrushan88 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/837268#Comment_837268
You get significantly more BP for playing killer, and you don't have to just do gens and escape without offering any other form of gameplay(which there is more to survivor than just doing gens and escaping if you're actually playing the game, which I don't count what you're doing as such).
Btw last I checked farming survivors off hooks was actually reportable, I either Peanits or someone saying that if it was intentional farming that it was.
Farming with the explicit objective the hooked Survivor killed is reportable.
Farming because doing so is pragmatically the best way to keep yourself alive due to the circumstances is not. For example using the unhooked as a human shield.
I go for safe hooks because you are more useful to me alive. But in the event that an unsafe hook will keep me alive where I would otherwise die then it's optimal for me to do so and that's not reportable.
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@fluffymareep said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/836660#Comment_836660
It's a team game whether you want to acknowledge it is or not. You're more likely to survive the more people are left alive. You let someone die on first or second hook and you're down a person. Besides, this is more so a game to entertain the entity. It would be more of a survival game if it was implied you escaping is an escape/win condition of sorts, but its not and the emblem system would imply the entity finds selfish/boring play to not be appealing and rewards it less.
The tutorial explicitly states that your win condition is to escape.
Not just implies but specifies in plain English.
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@alphaholic said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/836660#Comment_836660
You can escape and lose a pip. You can also die and still double pip. So unless we're just playing fast and loose with the word "win" here it sounds like you're just a bit of an edgelord.
The game itself has a stated win condition I the tutorial and it's either to escape as Survivor for sacrifice everyone as Killer.
The pip system is a separate thing used for matchmaking which isn't directly connected to winning. But the games tutorial is clear on what your objective is.
Thus regardless of playstyle or opinion that is the wincon
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I'd prefer it to have a stackable buff with a more unique effect.
The hook related auras are already covered by other perks and so is ally tracking in general.
So I suggest it be the opposite:
* Survivors within 8 meters per token can see your aura
Put that onto the existing effects.
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I get gen times, but iron will is fine.
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@csandman1977 said:
If she doesnt have collision when phasing she should be able to phase through windows and pallets. At a considerable drain to her power
I don't see how this follows.
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@NumB_16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/837572#Comment_837572
Pressing a button that makes you do an action that gives no feedback to the survivors is not a mindgame
The mindgame isn't pushing the button, that's just the mechanical aspect. It's making them think you didn't push the button that is the mindgame.
It's as silly as the "You stood still to mindgame thus it wasn't a mindgame" argument. Other than fooling the Survivor what benefit does not imputing anything have?
Not only is standing still as Spirit a mindgame, but it's also ONLY a mindgame and would be completely pointless if it wasn't, just like it's completely pointless on most other Killers that don't use mindgames as a big part of their gameplay.
Remember, the aspects that make a mindgame a mindgame have nothing to do with the specific inputs, that's just the execution, but in the prediction aspect where each player tries to figure out what the other player will do (or in the case of Spirit has already done), not through mechanical information (animations, audio cues, ect) but through psychological information (patterns, game sense, logic ect).
The inputs themselves are just how you translate that prediction into gameplay, they aren't themselves the mindgame, just you locking in your answer.
Contrast a Killer with more focus on mechanical Precision such as Huntress. There the literal mechanical actions you take actually ARE the plays rather than just the medium for translating a play you've in a sense already made into the games mechanics for interpretation.
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@Monlyth said:
I just had a team of survivors throw the game by going for unsafe unhooks instead of doing gens, turning what would have been a 1K into a 3K. Then they proceeded to call me trash after the last one escaped through the hatch.
People are weird.
If your trash I wonder what makes the 3 Survivors you just Killed?
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@projecteulogy said:
Am i the only survivor who runs Spine Chill so i dont EVER get pulled off a Gen? lol this new wave of new players are scared of the spirit? Oh come on.
Just sucks when the person playing spirit is a tunneling jerk. Though I have seen in the killer community more often people NOT tunneling, so its really just how you play at this point.
If new players would play like every killer uses BBQ, Devour, Spirit Fury, and Rancor, there would be a case of git gud. Instead I would suggest buffing the rest of the killer roster before nerfing Spirit. The killer role is meant to be a scary unrelenting force of Oh ****. They are in fact. not.
In fact, its more stressful and scary to play killer than it is to play survivor. You can't really jump scare as a killer unless you play as Spirit with Prayer Beads or Wallhack Mikey. But you can jump scare the killer with a pallet or Head On. I'm so traumatized from playing killer that when i'm caught as a survivor i don't even wiggle. I don't see any reason there should be a mechanic that allows the killer to get bullied. Makes for a hilarious YT clip but the reality is that mechanics are not great.
The moral of the story is that Humans are the real monsters
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@Yucchi said:
As a person who only played survivor until Spirit came out:
- vault/ collision changes are great - collision was/is bullshit and she could bodyblock you
- yakuyoke amulet - now it's not even worth using - I can get both speed and duration in 2 add-ons with better outcome than using the new "fixed" version with a speed buff. Just another trashy add-on
- prayer beads - just if just changing the rarity to "ultra-rare" and simply listening to loud stomps wasn't enough? Global phasing is the worst change that they could come up with. Just... use your goddamn ears survivors! I have never been yoinked by Spirit with prayer beads because I listen to the game and not Katy Perry during games
- Even with all the add-on changes people will still complain "I don't know if she's phasing! How am I supposed to counter that?"
The addon changes I like. I'm all for reduced emphasis on the power from consumables.
While I don't LIKE her basekit changes, I can live with them. So at least I don't have to morn her like people are with Nurse.
SHE'S ONLY INJURED BUT STILL BREATHING PEOPLE!!!
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The quantity of stalling perks after the 4th has no impact on the effectiveness of the meta since you can't take more than 4 of them.
Only the quality of the best 4 matter.
This is for the same reason as all of the different exhaustion perks effectively being a single perk in terms of checking how many chase helper perks Survivor have since they are mutually exclusive.
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I'd like to point out that the way her post phase MS boost works is also changing, so the range is disproportionately decreased on top of this.
Also the change to the purple addon is a pretty large difference, to the point that both of them combined is the same duration as just the purple one is right now.
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You are under attack. Run
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Personally I want it to be something that can actually be used while moving for surprise attacks. Insidious means to approach slowly so something that works well with that idea would be nice:
- When standing still get a token every second up to 2/3/4. Each token reduces your terror radius by 8 meters, reduces your movement speed by 2% and removes your red stain. 45 seconds after you've moved or when taking an offensive action you will lose all tokens.
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Her biggest tell is that when you get close to the Husk it will lunge at you and injure you.
Try seeing if she does that and you will be able to determine if she's faking with 100% accuracy!
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@BloodyNights said:
From what I read from the devs they do not just take all of the killers kill rates from all ranks. They said it them selves that Nurse was the absolute worst killer and underperformed drastically at mid to high ranks especially on ps4, yet when she gets to low ranks she over performs. Which is why she was changed.
I hear people mentioning how stupid it is to base balance around getting 2 kills per match on average. Which translate to a draw of course. If you do well you'll get more kills and just 1 more over 2 should deffinantely be considered a win for killer. You can bring up nonsense excuses as to why a killer is getting these at least two kills on average. But it's the average! It happens pretty much all the time. So those excuses don't make much sense.
So if you don't want to balance it around 2k's on average. What do you want it based on? 3k average is pretty much always winning with a killer. So if we bring it up anymore that's ridiculous. And we need a different measure for balancing if kills don't work. Any suggestions?
Before bringing up the emblem system, it's a mess but it has nothing to do with balance, so I wouldn't bring that up honestly, but feel free to complain about it, me getting a 4k with Infinite memestone myers shouldn't de-pip xD
Interesting how you forget that there are numbers between 2 and 3.
Also the higher the Kill rate the lower the winrate for all players in general. With 2k the overall winrate is 50%, while with a 3.2k (which is the highest number that can be balanced) it's 20%. Anything above 3.2k is guaranteed to be unbalanced in one way or another and same for bellow 2k.
Ironically given perfect balance a 2k average kill rate would lead to 2k being the rarest outcome by far. This is because the lower the average Kill rate is the higher the Killers snowball potential needs to be in order to maintain balance. In other words the higher your escape odds the lower they will be if another Survivor dies, with it dropping to 0% at exactly 2k and vice versa with lower escape odds. At 2.7k it's such that your escape odds remain constant as other Survivors die.
Keep in mind that those statistics I just mentioned are before taking into account the specific scenario and thus should be taken with a grain of salt, but the core idea still holds.
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@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/832150#Comment_832150
Off topic* What do you think about the new killer's teaser?
I hope it's another multi-mode Killer like Doctor was.
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@AshleyWB said:
Or it could be Tracer.
best killer
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The magnitude of the fatigue reduction is a bit too high (or the base fatigue is too low for a similar reason).
Having a practically free down after getting a 3-4 stab is fine, however the issue is that you can do the following:
- Stab someone with Frenzy
- Catch up with Frenzy
- 2.3 second fatigue
- 7.475 second chase later and he's downed.
This is extremely fast, easy and refreshes the Frenzy bar.
For a Killer that's supposed to be best against a group this is too much lethality while outside of his strengths.
If this was all the Killer had then that would be fine, the clown for example can get similar numbers. However the issue is that this Killer is supposed to be extremely effective against Grouped up Survivors in particular, so having it be also super effective against isolated targets is a bit too much.
I'd suggest having more scaling on the speed or duration and take away some of the scaling on the fatigue and initial speed.
Specifically I'd suggest 16 seconds for the extended power duration and 5.6 M/S for the extended speed but 0.5 reduced fatigue and 5.2 M/S initial speed.
That's a 9.6 meter initial effective range and a 25.6 meter extended effective range. By comparison the current legion is a 10 meter effective range.
In other words if you see someone with Killer Instinct then you can definitely reach them for sure so long as you have a straight shot at them (baring TR manipulation perks/addons of course).
The range you have currently is 19.6 extended range btw.
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@Galklife said:
@NuclearBurrito pls dont make me chat with 14y old child that thinks killer is on him while im chased or some 4Head that doesnt speak english but thinks everybody in the world is speaking his language, its easy for killers to say "just give them voicecoms and ballance around it" + do you think blendette will ever listen to you?
they wont add voicechat for survs that will just kill game or 80% will have that turned off but game will just be harder because it would be ballanced around thing that you wont use
I didn't suggest that.
I want more mechanical methods of information sharing such as action icons for a similar result but without relying on everyone else to play along.
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@prettyf said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/831181#Comment_831181
solo players can't chat and most swf players did wheres your logic boy please not tell me your imagination its different with reality
swf with random join? who does that to get a single match with friends
do you think they accept waste so many times to get every matches lol
thats not even happen in a system, why you bring minor uncontrollable situation to defend your non logical story?
prevents "common" balance at least as i said, matchmaking is not a god as you think lol
you are not talking in common sense, why excuse things if its not even realistic
Solo players can absolutely chat, they just need 3rd party assistance to do so. SWF need 3rd party assistance as well.
Anyways why would I talk in terms of common sense when common sense is incredibly unreliable? Lots of wrong things are common sense because they fail to account for uncommon scenarios or unintuitive consequences.
Regardless though I'm not talking hypotheticals when I say people can use means other than the SWF button to get voice chat. People straight up did that before SWF was a thing. No one does it now because it's pointless, but if SWF is altered to punish those who use it then it won't be pointless anymore.
Even now it's really not that hard to get into a lobby with someone you know via the solo que. And again even if it wasn't I can tell whoever I'm matched with to join a discord server in the pre-game chat to the same effect.
BHVR can't stop these things, even if they removed the exit lobby button and the pregame chat there are workarounds to both.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/831198#Comment_831198
When you're being chased by Billy and Huntress, you know that they're trying to get a clear shot on you so they can hit you with their chainsaw/hatchets, and they know that you'll be trying to break line of sight with them to prevent that. In many chases at various looping locations, you end up doing an intricate dance with the Killer, with both of you trying to mindgame each other and catch the other player out of position, either so the Survivor can extend the chase time or so the Killer can get a hit on you.
There is no such interaction or counterplay with the Spirit. The Spirit's power is uninteractive by design. The Survivor can be a godlike player who's totally mastered the game's systems and understands every aspect of playing against Spirit, and the Spirit can be a noob who just makes random guesses at where you are when she phases, and yet the Spirit player can often score a fast and easy hit on the survivor, just by dumb luck.
When you take a hit from Spirit, you're often being outplayed by the character, not the player.
A mindgame scenario is just as likely to result in a lucky hit for the Killer for Billy as it is with Spirit (50% or less just like your odds of guessing as a Survivor). For stuff like that all mindgames are the same
The data you actually have isn't what's important there because it's not what you use to win a mindgame, only what you use to set up a mindgame.
When the data is sufficient to make a definite right decision it's called a reaction and not a prediction. If you can guarantee they don't hit you then whatever you did wasn't a mindgame, since for it to be a mindgame there needs to be something they could have done but didn't that would have stopped it from working, and the reason why they would need to have not done it is an incorrect prediction.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/831084#Comment_831084
Honestly, there's not a lot of room to truly outplay a Spirit. All of her counterplay is based on guesswork, because she has no visual or auditory feedback to let you know what she's actually doing.
Even if you equip all the perks that supposedly counter her (Iron Will, Spine Chill, Fixated, etc.) and try your absolute hardest to mindgame and mislead her, there's no guarantee that you won't take a hit. The Spirit might bump into you while phasing, or predict the trick, or hear your footsteps, or hear your breathing with Stridor, or do a fake-out that can't be detected by Spine Chill, or just make a lucky guess. No matter how much you try to outplay her, there's always a good chance that she'll hit you anyway.
When you're being chased by a Billy or a Huntress, you KNOW that they can't hit you if you break line of sight and force them to make lots of tight turns. The Spirit has no such guarantees; there's no foolproof way to avoid taking a hit from her until she's already used up her phase walk.
Just because it's not a guarantee doesn't mean it's a guess.
If you try to guess then you will never do better than 50% juke rates and you will often do worse due to there being a lot of objectively wrong options that don't actually initiate mind games.
If you instead use psychology, pattern recognition and logic to predict her then you can do much better.
I have other posts with the details in specific scenarios, but there is a difference between a prediction, a reaction and a lucky guess.
And honestly even if that weren't true, how is your "outplay" on billy or huntress any better? You said yourself that you've guaranteed you won't be hit. That means that the player behind the character is completely irrelevant to your success. In other words you've outplayed the character and not the player. Since the other players input had no relevance in the outplay.
By comparison, when you outplay a Spirit there is usually some action that she could have done to hit you anyways, but was tricked into not doing in one way or another. In other words the character could still hit you, but the player was prevented from succeeding in spite of that. You've outplayed the player.
And from the Killers PoV, as someone like Nurse you just get LoS and then blink in their direction to get the hit.
If a reaction is possible for the Survivor no matter what the Nurse does then the player is irrelevant and you are only outplaying the Character.
If a reaction is possible for the Nurse no matter what the Survivor does then it's the same deal but in reverse.
Reaction based scenario's always have a fixed outcome given optimal play. Thus if one of the players is optimal then the other player is irrelevant even if they are also optimal.
However Prediction based scenario's don't even allow for more than 1 optimal player in the first place, and the outcome isn't predetermined by the mechanics. This means it instead comes down to the players since the mechanics are insufficient to determine the winner.
What could be more player vs player than an interaction where it's the player inputs solely determining the outcome of a match up that is neither predictable through shear mechanics nor influenced by randomness (in the context of the specific play. DBD has plenty of randomness overall).
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@SteelDragon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/831001#Comment_831001
yet in red ranks a 4k can still mean depip/black pip. even 3k's can be black pip. best case scenario of a 2k is a black pip. if 2k is average and is the framework for balancing, something needs to change, either the emblem system or the framework for what is considered balance
That's a different scenario.
You claimed that 2k black pip is a problem given a 2k average goal.
This is false. You should not be pipping from a 2k.
While yes the framework is problematic, this is not one of the problems.
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@prettyf said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/831089#Comment_831089
knowing each perks and hex is op and steam chat while hooked also can make different
i never had a teammates in swf not using "any" communication and i had casual players in my team and still they done better with swf format without any cost in game, because they knew im gonna chase first with OoO and they ran borrowed time even before i joined their team, and i knew they using borrowed time and that made major different
if swf members promised something like map offerings theres even bigger gap between solos
your negate without logics didn't made improved to more ideal but just annoying
None of that is actually tied to the SWF button.
It's all from voice chat, which while associated with SWF is not itself SWF. You can get all of those OP effects without the button and it's equally OP as if you used the button.
You could even test this yourself fairly easily:
Step 1: Play a Solo game normally. This is your control
Step 2: Play a SWF game, however once you've invited them immediately cut off all communication until the game is over. This is the strength of SWF once we've removed comms. The benefit you get from this is the actual effect of the button and nothing else.
Step 3: Play a Solo game, however invite the other players into a voice chat of some kind. Keep dodging until they actually join and are talking. This is the power of comms with the SWF variable removed.
Step 4: Repeat steps 1-3 for a larger sample size because just 1 game each isn't good data. Preferably get multiple people doing this for as much data as possible.
Step 5: Compare your in game results between scenarios.
I predict you will do best in the Solo games with comms. This is because SWF is not itself what is OP but the comms that you often use SWF to streamline. You take that out and you're a glorified solo group. And the otherway around applies too, if you give comms to solo's then they may as well be SWF.
Since you can get comms with or without SWF, that means people who use SWF right now will just use Solo que with comms anyways for the same effect thus bypassing whatever system you are using to punish SWF.
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@prettyf said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/831079#Comment_831079
why you think like that? yes it is, swf is op button right now
No.
Communication is what is OP. You do not need to click the SWF button to get it and clicking the SWF button does not itself give you comms.
You can reque until you are with your friends
You can send the other Survivors a discord invite
You can start a voice chat over steam with the other Survivors
The only reason why no one does these things right now is that there would be no point since it's just strictly better to use SWF if you want comms anyways. However if the SWF button starts giving direct mechanical disadvantages to those that click it the players that want to take advantage of comms will just not use the SWF button to get there.
The only thing the debuff would do is make things more annoying for everyone, since now you have more lobby dodgers and random invites from people using these strats while the people who play casually and would still use SWF anyways are being punished for no reason.
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@SinfulHarlot said:
It's less about the chase time and about how it ends. A short chase done by anyone else feels like you got outplayed by the player.In the case of the Spirit, it feels more like you got outplayed by just the character not the person behind the character.
The solution to problems like that is presentation. Not nerfs.
Because you DID get outplayed by the person and not the character. So even if it feels otherwise the issue isn't a mechanical one and thus doesn't necessarily require a mechanical solution.
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@StarMoral said:
We should repeat this to the heavens:
You can double pip, even if you die. (Give or take depending on rank) While the end objective is to survive, the pipping system dictates you do other things.
That's why 20 second gen games end with EVERYONE losing a pip. Nobody gains enough points to do anything.
I don't see how the game having a bad matchmaking system makes this any better.
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@prettyf said:
im 100% solo player but controlling numbers of swf is just being selfish and stupid
because they just tied up with friends theres nothing wrong
just nerf their repair speed 10% at 2,3,4 members
What? NO!
That's even worse! By a lot!
You can't stop the issues because the SWF button isn't the cause of the issues. So tying a solution to the button won't solve anything no matter how convoluted it may be.
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You are confusing average with mode.
a 2k average does not mean most games are 2k. That would be the mode.
Average just means the sum of all kills over the number of games is 2
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@SteelDragon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/830969#Comment_830969
BUT the thing is balance to BHVR is 2 kills 2 escape
Average.
A 4k and then a 0k is a 2k average.
Winning is always above average in a perfectly balanced game, regardless of what the wincons and team sizes actually are.
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@Gibberish said:
I agree.
Escaping should be considered a "perfect", the equivilant to the Killer killing all 4 Survivors with all 5 gens remaining, and should have its difficulty rebalanced to reflect that.
No. Escaping should be considered a win and thus be the equivalent to the Killer sacrificing all 4 Survivors period.
A perfect would be iridescent unbroken where you aren't even downed.
Killers wincon isn't to keep all gens up, so a comparison to escaping is unfair in terms of balancing ideal statistics.
Killers wincon IS to Kill the Survivors. So using THAT is absolutely a fair comparison in terms of balancing statistics.
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@SteelDragon said:
at red ranks as survivor you can die and still pip, at least black pip most of the time as long as you where not a Dwight in a locker or get moried instantly. FOR KILLER. a 2k AT BEST IN A PERFECT SCENERIO is a black pip, most of the time it's a de pip. even getting some 3k's is a depip with some killers/gate keeper emblem being ENTIRELY up to the survivors due to how fast gens go at red ranks. with killers like plague and billy you are at a disadvantage with the chaser emblem, so not only is your gatekeeper emblem not gonna be high more than likely BUT your chaser emblem will be low to if you play these 2 killers. which means a "balanced 2k 2 escape average" is not being able to rank up in red rank and will probably de rank. for some other killers LIKE SPIRIT WHO CAN GET IRIDESCENT CHASER, even then 3k is usually a black pip and most of the time you NEED A 4K TO PIP AS KILLER. you DON'T need to escape as survivor to pip. so this 2 kills 2 escape balance is bad until AT THE VERY LEAST you change how difficult it is to pip in red ranks
While I agree that 2k average isn't exactly optimal I don't agree that any of this is a mark against it.
If you want a 2k average then if you 2k'd you did average.
Compare that to a fighting game. Obviously the overall winrate is 50/50 (before you've taken into account anything like characters/maps/player skill ect) so that means you will win 50% of the time.
That however does not mean that you did good if you get that average result, which is a draw. In fact draws in fighting games are extremely rare, yet they are still the average result. You don't win if you draw.
It's the same deal here. A 2k is 50% of the way to your goal. You still have 50% of the way to go. It may be the average result but that's only because the average player loses half the time and wins the other half.
The actual reason why I don't like the 2k balance thing is that other detail. Specifically that the "draws" need to be extremely rare. In a fighting game that's fine since winning losing and drawing or whatever happen instantaneous at the end. But in DBD you can 2k half way into the match, and if an overall 2k is extremely rare then that means when that 2nd Survivor dies the remaining survivors are nearly guaranteed to die. Not only that but even just 1 death would guarantee the remaining 3 die too.
You can actually somewhat see the effects of this in practice and it's a big part of why tunneling is so prevalent.
Of course if you set the Kill rate goal too high you have the opposite effect, where your teammates become more of a hindrance and your best chance of escape is the hatch right from the start.
Somewhere between the 2 extremes would be best. I've suggested 2.7k as my own ideal however any number between 2 and 3.2 can in theory be balanced. Numbers above 3.2 are always Killer sided no matter what and numbers bellow 2 are always Survivor sided no matter what, so only numbers within that range can be used as viable balance targets.