NuclearBurrito
NuclearBurrito
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@StarLost said:
You know why these stats look like this?
I'll bet dollars to donuts it's because games where survivors and killers DC are being included. During the rift, while the DC penality was disabled, this was sort of commonplace. Hell, I would DC to dodge Haddonfield and Ormond on occasion.
Honestly even taking that into account 0.16 is still too low to be plausible.
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What's wrong with moving while stalking?
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@Eareland said:
Ikr, if cheater uses it, he cannot pick you up, but you can pick yourself up.
Although, why don't you just pick up person who has No Mither, tho?
If it's that OP, then I should pick up users the all the time and tunnel them because they are using such OP perk and I don't feel sorry.
Yes. If you see No Mither bring a mori
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@Golden_spider said:
Yeah this is why No Mither is so strong, just invalidates so many things that it's nearly impossible to counter it.
Yeah I mean it even negates blood.
Like how are you supposed to track Survivors at all without blood?
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@Dpooly said:
@NuclearBurrito Half the things you listed aren't really countered because the user is Broken the entire round, I'm assuming you're memeing, but all it truly counters is slugging.
So long as you are injured and don't plan on healing, instant down effects and anti-healing effects do nothing. Thus countered.
ez
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@28_stabs said:
It doesnt counter Spirit. You cant just walk away from her every time she sees you.. you know, scratch marks still exist. :D
Plague can hear cough and notice her infection.
Legion doesnt mind injured survivors + No Mither still have to mend. Keep mending, hehe. :^)
It doesnt counter my favourite perks tho - good old BBQ, good old Blood Warden, good old Bamboozle and Rancor. Also, PoP is nice. Good perks are not affected, all good.
Plague can't break you because you are already broken and Legion cannot injure you because you are already injured.
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@Moundshroud said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1667913#Comment_1667913
True but to balance it for SWF makes it pointless and useless for Solo? Do you see my point? I don't disagree with your intention, I am just stating that the unintended consequence here is always going to HURT the Solo to try and reign in the SWF. It seems a lose/lose situation. I'd rather SWF just get put into their own Que where additional objectives and a 5th Perk be opened up for the Killer to balance them without strangling everyone else.
All that being said, I don't see a way to improve this where it doesn't hurt the Solo and fix the problem. Thus the Perk probably just needs to go away and be replaced entirely.
Only if you don't do it right.
SWF synergises with some effects more than others, but Solo's CAN make full use of things that SWF don't necessarily synergise with.
Take Kindred for example. Has almost no synergy with SWF, but is super good on Solo Survivors.
Or as I mentioned earlier, Sprint Burst. Equally good on everyone.
This is like that. It's good on Solo's and not that much more useful for SWF, at least when compared to current OoO.
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@Moundshroud said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1667901#Comment_1667901
You have to understand that when I look at a Perk I'm not trying to balance it for SWF. I think that is pointless. I try to balance it as it was intended, for Solo. The only way to fix it for SWF would be to remove the Perk entirely. Or, massively gut the range at which it works, i.e. 8 Meters at Tier-1, 16 Meters at Tier-2, and 32 Meters at Tier-3, and still give the Killer +3 seconds of seeing the Survivor's Aura after they look away. :) I'm not trying to be snarky.
I'm just pragmatic and honest. It is impossible to "fix" this Perk if you are really trying to deal with SWF which isn't even official, and not used by everyone. I agree it is a problem, but I just don't think you can fix SWF by playing with the existing Perks.
Fix? Maybe not. Improve? Absolutely.
Some effects are disproportionately strong in SWF, but some effects are NOT.
Most tracking perks aren't a problem with SWF, like Alert or Spine Chill. And chase perks like Sprint Burst or Dead Hard are just as useful in Solo as in SWF.
It's the perks that require or enable teamplay that get the most benefit from SWF. Which is why something like BT, Prove thyself and OoO are all disproportionately strong on a SWF group.
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1667895#Comment_1667895
Ah, I see, that makes sense. Sorry. However, the killer gets nothing in return for this? And therefore won't have any indicator the perk is in use?
That is correct. Since the perk only gives the full payoff to the Obsession, having it be telegraphed would make countering it a bit too trivial (just ignore them and go after the 3 other Survivors unless it's a free hit as if you were running STBFL).
You can still do that without a telegraph, but this way you have to realize they have the perk rather than being given that info for free.
Unlike with other of the more powerful Survivor perks, this perk doesn't stack with itself well (only 1 Survivor can fully utilize it at a time), it doesn't work particularly well with SWF (the strongest effect is exclusively useful in the 1v1 which is the same regardless of coms) and it isn't a second chance perk, just an information perk. I mean there's nothing JUST about an information perk of course, but what I mean is that it's not letting you take a bunch of extra hits like say: DS or DH is.
Thus I think it's fine.
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@Moundshroud said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1667889#Comment_1667889
Not really. If you have to push a button to turn it on, you as the Survivor control it, and turning it off means the Killer has YOUR aura for 3 additional seconds. That is the price you pay. The problem with OoO isn't really built into the Perk. It is SWF. Let's be honest here, if it weren't for SWF abusing this Perk, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Trying to fix this issue by playing with the Perk rather than addressing the SWF 5th Perk (Comms) will never really fix anything.
Being able to control it as Survivor IS the problem.
If anything what you are suggesting would make it even worse, since they could use it cross map and it would be easier to use it with distortion since you wouldn't get any accidental procs.
The 3 second additional reveal doesn't make up for the increased control.
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1667885#Comment_1667885
"But if you are the Obsession, then suddenly you are immune to a lot of mindgames the Killer is likely to throw at you, which is super useful in a chase."
Explain how so, based on your proposed rework? All you've said is that you see the killer's aura when your aura would be revealed, or the obsession is being chased. Nothing about the killer seeing anyone or nothing.
If you are the obsession and you are being chased, then the Obsession is being chased and thus you get to see the Killers aura.
Being able to see the Killers aura is super useful mid-chase since you know exactly how they are attempting to route while LoS is broken.
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@Moundshroud said:
Actually, I think it should be the other way around, using the Perk reveals the respective Auras to the Survivor and Killer for as long as the Survivor keeps the button/bumper/trigger depressed. However, when they end it, the Survivor's Aura remains visible for an additional (3) seconds for the Killer.
That has the exact same problems as the current OoO
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@GoshJosh said:
No from me. Here's why:
- You wouldn't want to be the obsession under your proposed changes, yet have an increased chance of being so.
- How does it make you the Object of Obsession, if it no longer reveals your aura to the killer/they have no indication the perk is in use?
You (or at least most Survivors) would absolutely want to be the Obsession with this perk.
If you aren't the Obsession then the benefit is knowing where someone in a chase is, which is just nice I guess.
But if you are the Obsession, then suddenly you are immune to a lot of mindgames the Killer is likely to throw at you, which is super useful in a chase.
As for point 2, it's less about actively singling you out, as it is giving you payoff for being singled out for other reasons.
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@Slashstreetboy said:
That´s a nice approach tbh. On the other hand, if I´m not mistaken, with your suggestion the Obsession would have 100% uptime while in chase? That would be miserable since it would remove any mindgame potential for the Killer unless some form of Undetectable was used.
Yes it would have 100% in-chase uptime.
This kind of benefit can only really exist as an Obsession only effect for this reason. Since all 4 Survivors being unmindgamable is obviously problematic.
Just 1 however, maybe, but it's at least much less of an issue.
Since even if all 4 Survivors bring this perk, you will still have at least 3 Survivors that can be chased like normal, and you know which 3 they are.
Additionally, since it's in chase only it means a lot of Killers can still preform mindgames to catch the OoO user off guard before the chase begins.
It's not a perfect solution, but part of the perks niche is for those who are trying to be found and chased, and mid-chase tracking fits that niche.
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While he can do an M1 swing during the windup, he cannot do an M2 swing. So long as you get a fast vault during the first half of the fake out he can't catch it with an M2.
And depending on the exact distance, if you aren't close enough you can start to bait the window and then medium vault. Ideally you will catch him off guard and he will cancel the M2, and then you will have vaulted before he can do it again.
Obviously if he's right on top of you this won't work, but he can't chose the timing this matters at, since the timing for him to open up the bait in the first place is dependent on when you would reach the window. Too soon and he's forced to go through the cooldown and the medium vault is completely free, too late and you can fast vault before his M2 is ready.
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@Zwergz112 said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/O336HJ7NEWCS/snapchat-1600760050.jpg
I actually got told this a few days ago😂
I'd ask him which Killers he thinks are NOT OP
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@Szarman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1661430#Comment_1661430
On paper it sounds good, but in reality in most cases you will have to get at least 50% of your power gauge :). Look at the "Old Legion" Videos on youtube and show me a video when someone got downed without franks mixtape faster than 20 seconds :)
3 second CD to start, Survivor gains 3.9 meters still
2.25 seconds before power re-use, during which time legion gains 0.9 meters
15% of his power gauge is 0.9 seconds of use for 1.08 meters gained, and you still lunge at the end for an additional 1.45 meters. Or in other words, 0.47 meters of remaining distance. This requires an additional 0.55 seconds of waiting
Totaled this is 13.8 seconds
The version of legion you are proposing downs almost 5 seconds faster.
I WANTED to post a video clip here instead of more math, but I couldn't find an old Legion video of someone attempting frenzy downs that wasn't either moonwalking, using franks mixtape or both. It's not that I found video's of people failing to do it quickly, but that no one was even attempting it that I could quickly find. I'm sure it exists somewhere, but there are a lot of Legion videos to sort through, both new and old and I only have so much time.
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@Szarman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1661279#Comment_1661279
Not 10 seconds my dude :). Maybe it will be a pretty good possibility to down a survivor but you will lose a lot more time to do so. Still Legion is slower in Frenzy than before and you can juke Legion in some ways. Still i respect your opinion. Also remember that there is no insta downing and chase exploiting as before :)
He isn't slower, they reverted that.
And fine, I'll get you the exact timeframe.
Ahem: Starting the chase from the 2nd frenzy hit (since the first one applies DW and the 2nd doesn't have a cooldown in between) you have:
- 3 seconds of cooldown, Survivor gains 3.9 meters of distance during this time
- Frenzy is usable after 1.5 seconds post fatigue and gains 0.9 meters of distance
- With 10% of your power bar Frenzy can be active for 1 second, which is 1.2 meters of distance, but you can also lunge at the end for an additional 1.45 meters of distance, leaving you 0.25 meters away. As such you must wait an additional 0.2 seconds
- This must happen twice for a grand total of 9.4
So your right, it's not 10 seconds. It's LESS than 10 seconds.
Even if you take into account the first 2 hits that's 20 seconds tops since you aren't going to start a chase at all from more than 12 meters away and the 2nd hit happens almost immediately after the first.
Vaults will add a fixed 0.9 seconds to this time per vault since the duration is paused during a vault.
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If you bring franks mixtape then you can down any Survivor in just over 10 seconds every time.
We don't want old legion.
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@PassarinoT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1660281#Comment_1660281
My bad, misread major as minor, but 120 seconds of haste is fine but 5x a 10 second 7% boost with removed scratch marks isn't? Ok lol.
The point of the perk is to ease your get away from a gen site or from the killer and this helps, that's all.
I'm not objecting to the buff itself.
I'm objecting to the language used to describe it.
Hope is a lot of things, but QoL is not one of them.
QoL changes aren't buffs in the traditional sense. So when you are adding raw power to a perk or power, calling it QoL is inaccurate.
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@PassarinoT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1659865#Comment_1659865
It's not much but it can be useful, for example, if you're hindered any amount less than 8%, this can mean the difference between a fast and slow vault for 10 seconds. Not much, but it does more than you might think. Do you want a full out exhaustion perk to be in play here? It already has another effect at the same time.
What? Did you read what I just said?
This is a huge power buff and not a QoL change.
QoL would be something like revealing to other Survivors you have the perk or telling you when a gen is about to pop.
Giving you 10 seconds of haste is improving the effect of the perk rather than just the feel and/or usability of the perk.
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@PatWesker said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1660043#Comment_1660043
Not sure about that.
My explanation is... borrowed time is to avoid tunneling, I don't know if you agree with me? I mean, to allow borrowed time to work, the killer must be close (in terror radius) PLUS the killer must hit the same survivor just been unhooked. That's what I call tunneling.
I play myself killer, and when someone unhook a surv whil im close, I usually go to the unhooker and not the unhooked... if I hit the just unhooked survivor, I'll leave him on the ground to let him have a chance to be healed while I'm pursuing the other.
So, when you play against a good killer who has good ethics, the perk borrowed time is useless.
I just mea that, lot of my games have been ruined by campers/tunnelers losers. Litteraly ruined, what's the point of playing if the only thing you do in a game is... nothing but waiting on the hook with no chance of escape. On the other side, what's the point of playing killer if the only thing you do is, nothing but look at a hooked survivor without even moving.
That is frustrating that if you get unhooked, the killer can just hit you a second after with absolutely no chance of doing nothing. Some killers wait for the animation of unhooking just to be able to hit again the unhooked surv. I think this is the most toxic thing in DBD.
And when you have just badluck and get downed easily by a killer, that is really frustrating to know that you could be saved and win some time by looping him after that unhook unless just being saved and hit right away without trying at least to loop him and show what you've got. Because killers like that are usually very easy to loop because all they do is camp, so never really practice their pursue skills. That would be such a great way to show them that camping tunneling ihas no benefits and encourage them to play better than just being sh*t.
I didn't say this was an unworkable idea. Just that you can't copy and paste BTs effect into basekit and call it a day.
15 seconds is enough time to force a body block and guarantee and EGC escape. This is a problem given how it effects non-tunnelers trying to hit the unhooker.
Additionally, while something like 6 seconds would solve the former issue, it still creates a pure balance issue in that losing the ability to tunnel off hook is a large power decrease.
Pure balance problems aren't as bad as game health issues, so this doesn't mean the mechanic couldn't or shouldn't be added anyways, but what it does mean is that the ability needs to be compensated for somehow, preferably in a way that makes winning while not tunneling easier, thus doubling down on the objective behind this change.
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Such a change could not happen in isolation, due to it allowing Survivor to effectively have 5 perks.
You'd need to decrease it's power drastically (ex: decreasing the endurance duration by a lot), possibly making BT still give the current effect without the hypothetical nerf.
And additionally you'd need a basekit Killer buff to compensate. I don't have a specific example in mind for what that would be, but it could be literally anything of the appropriate magnitude.
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Autodidact, BT, Blood Pact, WGLF
This is a real build I have used with intent to win.
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OP: "Small QoL change"
Also OP: *Suggests a major power boosting effect that doesn't improve QoL at all
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You use cages to either bypass perks or to hook while another Survivor is in sight that you want to chase.
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Wasn't 3.4 like a year ago?
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I'd add a proper stamina system, remove scratchmarks and put more emphasis on the games win conditions.
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@xEa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1654533#Comment_1654533
Please tell me this was sarcasm.
It is in the sense that it's this is an example of them doing distinctly not Survivor sided changes.
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While I agree with the conclusion I disagree with the reasoning.
Things that annoy you from the PoV of the Survivor aren't likely to annoy you from the PoV of the Killer, that doesn't mean there isn't a problem.
That said, what playing the Killer/Survivor perk/Whatever CAN help you do is come up with viable solutions.
Sometimes an annoying Killer mechanic is also vital to that Killers success, sometimes a mechanic is causing annoyances on both sides and sometimes it's just a side thing. Knowing this improves the quality of any suggested solutions.
For example if you know an annoying mechanic is also important for balance reasons, then you'd know to counterbalance it's removal with a large buff to take it's place.
Whereas if it turns out to be a minor portion of their kit, an addon for example, then less compensation is needed.
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@FFabeq said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1654533#Comment_1654533
THEY CHANGED PH THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY SURVIVOR SIDED1111!!!ONEONE
Fr killer mains be like
Mhm.
The devs are incompetent, but it's not like they don't care about balance. They just suck at it.
I don't live in the reality I would expect to be in given truely Survivor sided devs.
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Because the devs are Survivor sided obviously
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Nope. Perk is #########
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Note that there are some changes in the PTB that weren't documented
Specifically, Mindbreaker no longer has the 50% gen requirement, and thanataphobia now effects totem cleansing. That 2nd one is the reason I'm not calling the change a nerf inspite of what would otherwise be an insufficient numbers buff.
As for some of the other things you said.
Forced Penance is a very underrated perk, in particular it's a perk that's great for stealth Killers as an answer to hyper altruism (aka: the counter to stealth Killers). This is because Stealth Killers can easily both proc the perk (by ambushing unhookers and healers) and make use of the perk's effect(by ambushing broken Survivors on gens). So I would not agree to a rework or whatever.
As for blood pact, you can't remove the healing requirement, you'd be left with an effect that is never triggered.
Healing isn't a prerequisite, it's a trigger.
For example, with the second wind perk, Healing a Survivor is a condition, while being unhooked is the perks trigger.
For lithe, vaulting a window is the trigger, while not being exhausted is a condition.
ect ect ect
Blood pact's condition is having the Survivor you are interacting with be the obsession, healing or being healed is a trigger, not a condition. As such removing it is the same as removing the effect entirely unless it's replaced with something else.
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@gibblywibblywoo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1650092#Comment_1650092
That would be absurdly OP but I assume you're joking.
While it's not a serious suggestion it's not a joke either.
I'm trying to make the point that a sufficiently large numbers buff CAN make the perk good.
A more reasonable change would be the existing time but a global range or something.
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@Human_Giraffe said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1650094#Comment_1650094
Well yeah but would you really qualify breathing as a skill? Or lighting yourself on fire? I think you're confusing ability to do something with a skill, something you can do that you can do well. You can't really tunnel well now can you? You do it the same as any other killer.
idk about breathing, but I would certainly call lighting yourself on fire a skill.
Not a particularly practical skill, but a skill nonetheless
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@gibblywibblywoo said:
Mindbreaker still has its "below 50% gen progression" limit which still remains to this day the weirdest limitation on any perk. So its hot garbage. Without that it could be good on Ambush/Stealth killers. The devs seem so afraid of punishing survivors who remain injured with Sprint Burst/Dead Hard who rush gens without healing its bizarre.
Cruel limits just isnt worth using no matter how much they buff the numbers.
What if Cruel limits was 128 meters and lasted 180 seconds?
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For example, we don't nerf the "blendette hiding in a corner while waiting for 3 Survivors to die for a hatch escape" strategy, because that strategy is already terrible and thus Survivors already learn not to do that by trying it and dying as a result until they learn better.
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Either way though, it's not a particularly productive point to make regardless of the truth.
Depending on your objective I would either try to prove that Tunneling is:
A: Overpowered - And thus should be nerfed by the devs (preferably with some idea's on what changes would fix it)
B: Suboptimal - And thus should be dropped by the Killers using it in favor of more effective strategies (which you should specify)
C: Counterable - And thus Survivors should change their own strategy in order to prevent tunneling (again, specify how)
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@xXCAM3R0NXx said:
Let's change the focus a little then.
Yes I guess I claimed the definition of strategy wrong.
What if I said this:
*Tunneling isnt skill*
Then you can in principle be correct.
Although I would instead word it "Tunneling doesn't require skill", since skill is something a player has not something a strategy or game element has.
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Cruel limits will still suck.
Mindbreaker technically depends on the magnitude, but will most likely still suck.
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Of course it's a strategy. Not only is it a strategy, but it's a dominant strategy.
So long as you accept the definition of the term strategy, it's not even a matter of opinion.
Official Definition of Strategy:
"a plan of action or policy designed to achieve a major or overall aim."
Tunneling perfectly fits this definition, since it's a pre-planned course of action intended to give you an advantage in the goal of Killing all 4 Survivors.
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@DarkMagik said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1648102#Comment_1648102
Reread i just added something.
What if the farthest fountain is already corrupted?
And regardless of the answer you are missing the point, cuz it's not just about balance.
Plague is not a stall Killer. When I play plague it's because I want everyone to be injured at all times and I want to be able to suddenly murder everything in my path. Vile Purge is not designed to buy time and it's certainly not what anyone that plays plague is trying to do.
The issue I'm getting at is that you are putting the Legions playstyle onto the Plague.
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@DarkMagik said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1646346#Comment_1646346
well then by your logic survivors will be constantly cleansing which means they are not doing gens.Secondly they stay injured once they cleanse which could mean more time wasted healing just to be infected again.
No because people are just going to cleanse immediately without waiting to break first. You'd only get anywhere by doing a full break in one chase, in which case you may as well just play Legion.
You won't be getting corrupt because Survivors will be cleansing every chance they get. Legions 14 second stall wasn't enough, so a 5 second stall certainly won't be.
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@Iceyrawr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1647726#Comment_1647726
The problem with OoO is that it divides SWF and solos,
the perk is too strong in SWF, but mediocre in Solo,
and quoiting BHVR, they want to balance Solo to the level of SWF,
then this perk should be their top priority in their logic.
However, the biggest perk unbalancing patch, which will be this one, has no OoO changes.
OoO makes really good SWF broken against some Killers. Bad to mediocre SWF will just go down in the chase anyways.
DS makes everyone broken against all but 1 Killer, even if they don't actually run the perk.
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@Iceyrawr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1647703#Comment_1647703
Yup, priority matters when doing perks balancing.
I don't think anyone would disagree OoO is the most problematic perks in the game when it comes to balancing
*raises hand*
OoO is not nearly as bad as DS.
At least OoO only effects matches where the Survivor actually brings the perk. And OoO can be countered by more than 1 Killer.
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if it's 5% it's a nerf. If it's 6% or more it's a buff.
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@MusicNerd_TC said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1646753#Comment_1646753
What's wrong with BT? DS and OoO are the only OP survivor perks imo.
Basically it's an instant heal that works with every single hook and bypasses 1shot downs, and has excellent timing and can be used a LOT in every match.
Consider how many times BT triggers in a match, or alternatively how often a Killer will deliberately not hit a Survivor for fear of BT.
Sure it's not as bad as DS, but that's not saying much. The quantity of procs easily makes up for the relative power of a single DS proc. A single Survivor with the perk can get up to 6 procs afterall.
By comparison OoO's problems are non-balance, since the informational advantage is significantly counterbalanced by it's downside, making it more of a playstyle change than an advantage, an extremely unhealthy playstyle change but still. Not that it's weak, don't missunderstand, it's just that DS and BT have power to a crazy degree. There is a reason everyone runs those 2 perks and not OoO.
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Also, not a perk but Keys need to be reworked.
I'd strip the hatch opening component entirely and rework them to be completely focused on the mind channel ability.
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DS and BT are the only perks that are outright super OP.
Other perks may be a little stronger than they should be, but not nearly to the same extend as those 2, at most some perks become super strong through synergies.
Anyways, a handful of other Survivor perks also need changing for non-balance reasons. In particular OoO immediately comes to mind. The issue isn't so much it's direct power but that the dynamic it enforces is super unfun, especially in a SWF. As such OoO should be sidegraded to fix this issue.
The other Survivor perks are mostly ok. Adrenaline, Sprint Burst, ect I wouldn't want to be directly nerfed, either indirect through exhaustion perks or sidegrade changes.