Nebula
Nebula
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659167#Comment_3659167
1. It's not a team game at it's fundamental level. Survivor's end goal is binary, you escape or you don't. The average between two binary options is 50%.
2. A 2K is not a draw. People keep saying this because on the surface it appears to make sense that 2 of one thing and 2 of the other must be even therefore 'a draw', and I get why this seems like it should be the case, but that's not what a draw is.
A draw is where neither side wins or loses.
For survivors, 2 have won and 2 have lost, so the survivors haven't "neither won nor lost" they have most certainly either won or lost depending on the survivor.
For killers, they have not 'neither won nor lost', they have completed half of their objective. It's a very different thing.
If the average game was a 2K, and we presumed that the most balanced possible state would be that 'every game is a 2K always', then every game killers would be achieving half of their objective.
The equivalent for survivors would be only powering 3/5 generators every game, which is quite clearly a loss. For survivors to win, they have to complete their entire objective.
A 2K is not only half of the killers objective, it also necessitates that survivors have completed all of their objective and powered the exit gatesn which means killers have not only missed half of their main objective, but also failed in their secondary objective (preventing repairs).
This is why a 2K is a loss for the killer, in order for it to occur, the killer must fail in the majority of their goals, and why this asymmetrical format does not allow for the existence of a 'draw' in the truest sense.
Is 2 out, 2 dead not considered a draw for both sides by the devs own admission? Am I remembering this incorrectly?
In an MMR perspective the survivors objective is to escape, not finish gens. The games still a 4v1. You’re fully reliant on your teammates to escape, if this game was more like TCM where an individual can actually escape all on their own I’d agree with this. You can be the best player in the game but if your teammates don’t support you, you’re not getting out. It’s a team game no matter how you spin it.
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I’d imagine most girls don’t want to put themselves in a game where they quite literally get murdered with a community that oversexualizes everything…
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658639#Comment_3658639
It’s not actually a draw for both sides. Two survivors win, two lose, and Huntress wins two micro-matches but loses two (so she may obtain some emblems but not all, she’ll likely break even with MMR b/c killers gain and lose MMR by each survivor they kill or fail to kill, respectively).
I get what you’re saying but by the very definition the devs gave us, 2 out 2 dead is a draw for both sides. Yes, the 2 survivors that got out “win” in MMR but the overall match outcome for survivor is a draw.
At the end of the day survivors live or die by their teammates actions, the games still a 4v1, not a 1v1v1v1v1 regardless of how MMR treats it. You can run the killer for 10 minutes straight but you’re not getting out unless your teammates help you. So why would the survivors target mark for escape percentage not be 62.5%, 2.5 escapes on average per game?
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658619#Comment_3658619
If you see my first post in this topic, you'll see that yes, survivors aren't making their ideal win rate (50% escape rate), but neither are killers making their ideal win rate either (62.5% kill rate/37.5% escape rate).
The discrepancy is because a survivors win rate is identical to their escape rate, but a killers win rate is not the same as their kill rate. A 50% win rate for killers is a 62.5% kill rate.
So many grievances with this game are down to it's asymmetrical format, yet the complaints seem to completely ignore it as a factor.
Why is the survivors target mark not also 62.5%? 2 kills 2 escapes is considered a draw for both sides. Why would the killers target mark be 2.5 kills per game average, aka a win on average, while the survivors target mark would be 2 escapes on average, otherwise a draw on average? I get the game is assym and you need to account for that but this just doesn’t make any sense to me.
Not saying I think it should be this way or is even possible, but I’m just not following your logic.
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I still have PTSD from Monitor and Abuse Slinger with no lullaby. A 16 meter terror radius on a ranged killer was never a good idea.
I agree though that Slinger deserves some love, he definitely feels clunky to play for such a precision killer.
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@Saiph said:
Not a comment on game balance itself but just a reminder that BHVR's justification for the 60% killrate makes absolutely no sense in a game with MMR.
MMR's job is to keep the killrate at 50% regardless of game balance. You could make killers move at 2x speed, the overall killrate would still be at 50%, the system will simply match experienced survivors against total beginners to achieve it. Actually, the kilrate should mathematically be more around ~40%, because hatch escape does not even count as a full escape for MMR.
So, the fact that the killrate is 60%, does not just mean the game is killer-sided. What it means above all, is that MMR is not doing its job.
I don't think anyone has a clue on what the killrate means, including BHVR. The stats they shared have always been pointless and full of contradictions, and even more after they explain them.
Like, look at this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/NVT4S27VNE8T/image.png
High MMR survivors, escape less than regular survivors? I'm sorry but what the #########? So the higher MMR you go, the more you lose? It's the single game on the planet that works like that.
This is what I've been preaching for a while. I've never in my life seen or heard of an actual MMR system that doesn't shoot for 50/50, because at that point it's quite literally not an MMR system. You can't artificially set benchmarks in a system that is supposed to give both sides a 50/50 shot to win if they're at the same level.
On top of that, skill is arbitrary in this system as kills and escapes in no way equate to skill. The killer that got 10 hooks and 2 kills is apparently at the same skill level as the killer that got 2 kills by proxy camping and tunneling the first person out, and ended up killing another in a 3v1... Or the survivor that hid all game is apparently more skilled than his teammate that took agro the whole game and ended up dying so they could get out.
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It's a tough balance to find where you try to make both sides as happy as possible. I can say for sure in my personal experience that survivor was way more enjoyable before they benchmarked a 60% kill rate, but killer was definitely less enjoyable for me.
I don't know if they'll ever find a spot in this game where both sides actually feel satisfied in this regard. Some people want to escape every game and some people want to 4k every game, they can't ever make everyone happy.
I'm the type of person that enjoys winning and being competitive, it's not an end all be all for me but I definitely play to win in the majority of my games and playing survivor feels like a chore in that regard sometimes. I don't really agree with the others in here saying they like the lower escape rates because it feels more challenging and rewarding when you do escape. In my experience it feels less like a challenge and more hopeless than anything. A lot of survivor games I'm wondering if there was literally anything I could have done to have gotten myself or teammates out, and half the time I truly don't think there was. The game was just lost from either matchmaking or terrible map spawns and layouts.
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@TheArbiter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658281#Comment_3658281
I'd like to know this as well, do we have stats on player counts per platform?
Not as to my knowledge, consoles very rarely ever release playercounts for games. I would argue this is just a guess or an educated guess.
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@CLHL said:
There is a reason why all killers with a secondary objetive are among the top in kills in the latest statistics. Bad players don't even know what they have to do, and this is something that they will hardly be able to solve, because people are not going to learn to play overnight. They seem to have decided that the way to fix this is to make these objetives less oppressive, but it's the wrong approach.
Freddy will unleash chaos in soloq no mather what, they will keep dying by Sadako's condene, they will continue winouth solving Pinhead's box and they will not be able to get rid of Pig's trap. This game needs tutorials that explain all its mechanics and from the developers side assume that there are people who are just bad at videogames or just casual players who are not aware of how all these killers work.
This game needs tutorials that explain all its mechanics
Exactly. They don't need to nerf or buff killers with secondary objectives that are not at all bad when you understand what they are. They need to make an actual tutorial system that goes beyond "touch gens, touch exit gates, escape!". This game offers so little up-front information to new players that they don't have to actively seek out from outside sources or clicking through 4 different prompts to bring up a killer power.
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@tak47888 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3655774#Comment_3655774
Well it is in a much better state because it is way more balanced now than before. Killer gameplay was unbearable at that time due to the game simply limiting their actions. Survivor gameplay is not broken. In my opinion, it is just a skill and missing coordination issue in most of the cases. Especially in Solo Queue. But technically, all the options are still available to build strong survivor teams. Stats on SWF proove that.
I wonder why Killer is constantly on 100% Bloodpoints during the nighttime in my region.
In my region (NA East) the bloodpoint bonus usually switches to killer around 7 pm and I think the reason is the same as it has for years, you play way more SWFs at night than compared to the day. People are off work/school and play with their buddies and a lot of people would rather not have sweatier games where they have to try harder to win.
Also, a lot of people also just want to play with their friends in this game and there’s obviously only one role to do this with. I’d play a lot more killer at night but it’s the only time I can play the game and same goes for my buddy so we just end up playing survivor (bHVR please drop the 2v8 mode 🙏).
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@appleas said:
That is with the assumption that there are enough Killers and Survivors at every "skill range" throughout the day in all regions.
The answer is probably no so the game is forced to grab someone from a lower or higher rating to fill up the numbers.
Queues that prioritise faster lobbies over players of similar skill level wouldn't exist if there were enough players at each skill range to begin with. Matchmaking could be tightened if there were enough people. If it's not tightened, it just means there aren't enough players in each skill group or there is a risk of insufficient players in skill groups queuing
I’ve always been on the side of if you can’t properly let the matchmaking system work (in this case prioritizing queue times over fair matchmaking) then there’s absolutely zero point in having an MMR system.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657494#Comment_3657494
Pig is still a M1 killer. And last time I checked M1 killers still couldn't fly. What mind game do you propose Pigs use against pre drops and Shift + W?
Petition to take Pig to Pilot school to become Sky Billy 2.0
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@GeneralV said:
I don't have a P100 character yet, but I'm trying to get there. I wasn't really playing DBD when the prestige system got changed, and I took a long break shortly afterwards.
Now I just want to catch up with everyone who already finished this journey for their own mains.
This is just guess, but I think some players that I go against might be a bit surprised by my prestige level, because I main Freddy. He is already pretty rare, so I don't think people expect to find someone who spends a lot of bloodpoints on him.
A P100 Freddy would definitely surprise me in a good way in an end game lobby 🤣, I love how you put on for him
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The Golden Boy of tiles in terms of fairness. Both sides can make great plays and use mindgames for advantages.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657708#Comment_3657708
The bushes on Dead Dog Saloon are among the best of bushes
Truly the bushiest of bushes. Shades of David Blaine if you will.
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Hmmm I have a feeling you have a personal connection to this cause...
Do the bushes on Dead Dawg speak to you?
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Petition signed
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For me personally, all these killers look more goofy than scary.
I can't lie either, I'm super disappointed in the Unknown's design based off the teasers, I really thought he was going to look way different than what we got. I know people like him though, so they definitely didn't completely miss, but for me I think he's the worst looking original killer they've released (besides Skull Merchant, everything about her sucks). I think there's a fine line between scary and too much and I think they tried way too hard to make him look scary and ended up with something that just looks super goofy.
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@OogieBoogie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657192#Comment_3657192
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657321#Comment_3657321
They weren't "shadow" changed. It lists in the patch notes the perks/addons that were changed because of the Mangled changes.
Ah my fault then, didn't read them closely enough clearly.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657452#Comment_3657452
Actually, I was watching Coco talk about her, not sure what Twitter clip you're talking about.
Hmmmm actually, according to those stats, Huntress is stronger than Nurse. Oops.
The more I talk with you, the more I see what's happening here.
It's so glaringly obvious they're just using console players as an excuse to get Huntress buffed on PC, any attempt to play this off is laughable.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657448#Comment_3657448
Two console players who are telling me she’s good who don’t actually play her. Meanwhile the Huntress mains I follow on TikTok rant about her on console 24/7. Don’t ignore the fact you haven’t played against her current version at all and have no idea if she needs to be reverted or not. You’re just completely guessing that she is too strong. You ignore the fact she is still very loopable and that I have actually played against her while you haven’t.
Dear lord, I'm done with this. Just making assumptions out of your ass while preaching conjecture. I play quite a fair amount of Huntress. I don't have to play as or against her PTB version to know that these changes are absolutely unnecessary. Citing TikTokers as your source is just laughable. Have a good one.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657430#Comment_3657430
I agree console needs better aiming but she also needs to be faster. 77% on a 110 killer is outdated. Low kill rates at high MMR too confirm this by dbds own stats. Plus this is all conjecture on your part. You haven’t played against the new version of her since you’re a console player and I have. I still looped her, I’m 10% faster than her. She only gets hits a free seconds faster. It’s not like she can run loops while holding hatchets.
Once again, stats are not supposed to be used for balance changes for a plethora of reasons, they don't tell the whole story.
Huntress is far from being in a bad spot and is currently one of if not the most balanced killer in the game.
I also am failing to understand why your citing console players as the reason Huntress needs a buff when you don't play on console. Talk about conjecture. You have two console players straight up telling you she's not that bad on console. Any killer that is projectile based is automatically going to be harder on console than PC, but once again, there is no way to buff or balance around that, it's simply an inherent advantage of being able to aim with your arm instead of your thumbs.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657414#Comment_3657414
I’m not comparing her aim to other ranged killers, I’m comparing console vs pc. A console Huntress is at a severe disadvantage compared to PC. They can mitigate it by buffing her. Simple.
I'm sorry but in the nicest way possible, this is an awful idea.
Yes, console killers are at a disadvantage when compared to PC killers, but this is true in almost every single game. It's just an inherent advantage to be able to aim with your entire arm instead of simply your thumb, there's no way of getting around that. Buffs, nerfs, doesn't matter, you can't ever get over that advantage no matter what. There's little to no difference between PC and Console survivors so this argument is entirely moot. You're not in competition against PC killers, you play against survivors who have very little to no advantage when thinking about the platform they play on.
You buff a killer purely because you want console players to be better with her and in return you just buffed the ######### out of every PC killer. The games crossplay, this is a terrible idea.
Now, if you were to argue that console needs better sensitivity and camera options, I'm 100% with you there. Literally only having a controller sensitivity option is one of the most dated things I've seen in a modern video game, but to argue that certain killers should be buffed because they're harder to play on console is honestly a laughable idea.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657402#Comment_3657402
If she’s the easiest killer and she is one of the least deadly then she needs buffs obviously. Saying she’s easy only proves my point tbh.
I'm not saying she's the easiest killer lol, I'm saying that she's not nearly as hard to aim with on console as other killers as you've been saying, this quite literally goes against your argument. Huntress is widely considered a top 5-10 killer. There's 30+ killers in the game and 20 that require attention before Huntress does.
She's a killer that requires a different playstyle than the rest of the cast and has a higher skill ceiling than 90% of the cast, of course her kill rates aren't as high as easier, lower skill ceiling killers.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657362#Comment_3657362
I’m not taking a shot at console players I’m telling you what they tell me. And they say she is miserable on console. They are specifically making these changes for new/casual players as they said. A lot of Huntresses resort to camping for kills which is why her rate is where it’s even at now. 77% is outdated, 85% is the slowest she should be. And I don’t see the big deal in giving her that. There are still 5+ killers who are better. She’s the only FREE, RANGED killer and noobs gravitate toward her. We don’t balance this game based on the players like CoCo or Max. We balance it around the casuals which is why solo q survivors need more buffs. Also I thought you were MikeWelk cuz that dude has commented on everything I ever comment on.
As a console player Huntress is the easiest projectile character to play by a very good margin. Her hitboxes are huge and very forgiving. Deathslingers spear is a minuscule hitbox and can be very hard to hit, and Trickster is definitely harder to aim with than Huntress.
The whole argument of using kill rates to justify buffs/nerfs to killers is both not practical and quite literally discouraged by the devs. Nurse has the lowest kill rate in the game due to her entry barrier and diverse playstyle, should we buff her because her kill rates are low and her skill ceiling is high?
Buffing these strong killers with high skill ceilings will only result in the skill ceiling being minimized, leading to less skill expression for both the killer and survivors playing against them. Not a good way to balance for either side and hence why these Huntress buffs are bad for the state of the game.
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Why do they shadow change things? What’s the point of not putting this and Pyramid Heads new add-on in the patch notes? It just feels disingenuous.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653775#Comment_3653775
Im currently playing Elden ring. Almost at 100% first playthrough. What an amazing game!
I want to check Lies of P out after that.
You started at the perfect time, DLCs just around the corner and it looks absolutely fantastic!
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@Emoba said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657144#Comment_3657144
"makes it that far"
Bro, 2025 is in 10 months.
The amount of people who think this game is dying / going to die is always insane to me. I’ve seen these posts for 5 years now, the games not going anywhere until they get an actual competitor (very, very slim chance) or until they literally close the servers.
The average player count for this game has remained stable if not increased for the better half of 8 years, its consistently in the top 30 of most played steam games and viewership on twitch is consistently in the top 15-30, not to mention the game does numbers on YouTube.
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@Rulebreaker said:
We agree that saying it's one sided or the other is silly as there's enough variables and RNG to make it swing one way or another. It's also dumb to us (but amusing) seeing everyone go rabid at almost any change.
That said everyone is different so we can't really fault anyone. Just cause we don't think it's a competitive game doesn't mean someone else won't. Having fun for one isn't the same as another, and yada yada. We can't force people to think differently {we'll sure as hell try and persuade them though}.
And as much as it stretches our belief, we do think a majority are saying what they think is best for the game (whether it would be depends) and don't want it to crash and burn.
Totally agree. I think a lot of people use their anecdotal, personal experiences and project them onto the game as a whole (I’m 100% at fault of doing this as well). And like you said, it doesn’t completely invalidate their experiences. It doesn’t mean they’re true for the game as a whole, but in that individuals mind and experience, they struggle in one role compared to the other and their perception is that the game isn’t fair/balanced for one side.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3656836#Comment_3656836
No reason to be rude to him, he was helping me understand that survivors weren’t actually throwing to skew data like I thought they did with Skull Merchant.
While I’m sure that there are a select group of people who throw matches to skew data, I don’t think people are killing themselves against SM to get her nerfed, I think the vast majority are simply doing it because they don’t want to play against her for a myriad of reasons. Causation doesn’t always equate to correlation.
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Thank you for sharing your perspective on this, this was very insightful. And like Caiman said, I'm glad that you're comfortable enough to vividly give your thoughts and personal experiences.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3656406#Comment_3656406
It's fair for us to disagree, of course, I'm always happy to drop a topic with a respectful disagreement- but if you wouldn't mind hearing me out, I do have a slight gripe with the way the Tampered Timer is invoked here.
Even if we were to assume its only purpose is to flat increase lethality (which I'm on the fence about, there are other ways to interpret it), that doesn't necessarily mean that Pig's power is designed that way overall. It could be an addon designed to add that element to her kit where it didn't meaningfully exist before... or it could just be a flat out badly designed addon.
Iridescent Head and Pinky Finger weren't changed for years, after all. Tombstone Piece is still in the game. Addons existing doesn't automatically mean they're healthy, well designed, or cohesive with what the power is actually supposed to do basekit.
Oh absolutely, I definitely understand you now. There are for sure a plethora of add ons that fundamentally change the way a killers played, and tampered timer could definitely fall under that category. And you got no argument from me on there being plenty of poorly designed add ons in the game 🤣
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3656362#Comment_3656362
1: Slight correction: It's not that you're assuming they don't have comparable hours to you, it's that you're assuming only the people who outright say they have hundreds/thousands of hours are that dedicated. You don't know anyone's hourcount, the people you disagree with could have comparable hours to those other players you're seeing talk. Apologies if the italics seem aggressive, they're just for emphasis.
2: That's not the argument, I'm just pointing out that those commentators have comparable knowledge to the actual top tier players. The ability to execute on the knowledge isn't a requirement to have the knowledge to begin with. The people who can physically perform the action don't have knowledge the people can't are incapable of getting. You can have a comparable understanding to a top tier player without being required to perform at that level personally. Mechanical skill and analytical skill are different skillsets.
3: That is how she's designed, yeah. As I said to my esteemed fellow Jester, those addons are both not particularly well designed and, separately, more geared towards increasing the slowdown you get from survivors being pushed towards boxes and you pushing them away. The actual "goal" of the timer reaching zero isn't meant to happen unless the survivors mess up, that's why some of the listed addons have been nerfed whenever they get too good at forcing it to happen reliably.
4: Buffs and nerfs are more versatile tools than just "make thing stronger generally" and "make thing weaker generally". Huntress is getting buffs because the devs feel she's too dependant on certain addons, that much has been stated outright. Pig is getting nerfs alongside her buffs because... well, I can't say with complete confidence, but I think it's because they want forcing head-pops to be less appealing compared to the alternatives and they also want to cover for bad box spreads on certain maps where survivors may get head-popped even though they're taking the right action to prevent it and the killer isn't even really trying to stop them.
Whether you agree with Huntress being buffed at all, there's nuance that goes beyond "This killer is weak, buff them" and "This killer is strong, nerf them". Game balance is rarely so binary. That's why a killer like Pig, who is only middling in terms of strength, could get totally fair and justified nerfs- those nerfs don't actually affect her core gameplay or design, they're not that impactful even when the killer would notice them, and they hem in some unfair edge cases with RNG. The fact that those slight and mostly-healthy nerfs come alongside noticeable and welcome buffs is good, mind you, I'm very glad they did it that way. It's just not inherently a bad thing for them to exist just because "Pig is weak (ish), ergo, she should never be nerfed in any way".
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you on most of your points, especially about your balance points. There is definitely way more nuance than I implied in my last post, I'm not the best at clearly conveying my thoughts sometimes.
To the point of her trap lethality, I think we just fundamentally disagree, which is totally fine, at the end of the day it doesn't really make a difference. I just can't imagine that lethality was not intended when add-ons like Tampered Timer have been in the game for 6 years now (I know it got tweaked at one point, but left in the game regardless). That add-on is practically only for the purpose of adding more lethality to her traps, nothing else.
I think where I'm getting frustrated with these patch notes is that seeing a killer like Huntress get basekit buffs for objectively strong add-ons that are in my mind absolutely not necessary and will add to her lethality a very considerable amount, while poor Pig is still crouch walking slower than survivors and the ambush just got basekit yellow and brown add on buffs, it doesn't really change much. Better? For sure, absolutely, but I don't think it's enough to justify touching her traps.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3656265#Comment_3656265
You're still assuming two things, though.
You're assuming that everyone who disagrees with you isn't someone with comparable hours on Pig, and you're assuming that having a high hourcount means you understand game design inherently and unavoidably better than someone with less hours.
For the first, it's just an assumption without basis. For the second, it's forgetting that skill at playing a video game and skill at analysing a video game are different skillsets. There's overlap, but not every commentator/analyst is a top-level player of the game they're associated with for that reason.
Don't get blinded by seeing a big number in an area that's only mostly related. Pay attention to the arguments themselves and how much they hold water.
EDIT: forgot to mention that people who otherwise know what they're talking about are 100% capable of overreacting in the moment, too.
I see your points but I still have contention with them.
- I'm not assuming that everyone who disagrees with me doesnt have comparable hours to me on Pig. I'm assuming that the players that have mained her for years and have solely dedicated hours and hours to learning and playing her have a better understanding of her than your average DbD player. I also have my own opinions on this change and agree with the Pig mains that this is entirely unnecessary.
- I totally get that, but if you're going to argue that the commentator that's not on top-player level has a higher degree of knowledge than the actual top-level player than we just disagree.
- I think your whole point in this debate has centered around the point you seem to make about pigs traps not being meant to kill survivors, and I think that this is completely subjective and just outright not true. As Undead Jester pointed out, if the traps weren't meant to have lethality than why are over half her add-ons trap lethality based?
- Why in the world does Pig deserve to be nerfed on any level and not outright buffed when killers like Huntress in the very same patch are receiving outright buffs, no nerfs? She's stronger, played more, and outlines a balance design issue with the developers.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3656205#Comment_3656205
It's a bit silly to assume everyone who disagrees with you doesn't play the killer being discussed.
The arguments in favour of this being a massive direct nerf to her main value are shaky and unconvincing regardless of who they come from, too. Hourcount doesn't guarantee that you know what you're talking about in general.
I worded that poorly, so for that I'm sorry. I don't doubt that you or others play Pig, but my point was more so that there are multiple people on this thread and others with thousands of hours solely in Pig and I think it's a little silly to be telling them that they're overreacting when they have way more experience with her than anybody else. I've seen this happen with dozens of trapper players as well.
And I'd disagree with hour count not equating to knowing what you're talking about. If you have thousands of hours on a weaker, niche killer I'd say you have way more of an understanding of her and her power than someone that just plays her rotationally or plays against her. This argument kind of reads to me like a your local dad trying to diagnose you because he thinks he knows as much as the doctor does. I understand your argument about the traps not being meant to kill anyone but when you have all the mains telling you that this is a harder nerf to her than the ambush changes were a buff, I think it's silly to argue that.
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@satx3241 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3656208#Comment_3656208
I thought pretty much the same thing when I was watching this guy, but I wouldn't doubt in the least that there are a lot of both survivors and killers that think they are doing something when they do these things
Hahaha yeah that I don't doubt, there's most definitely people out there that would try to do that
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3656070#Comment_3656070
First of all, thank you for this well written answer.
Yeah, Ruin was quite the meta back then. Which benefited both sides, as killers didn´t feel as "pressured" as now. Since survivors had an objective apart from doing gens. Sadly, currently no one uses hex (or even boon) perks. Because everything totem related is so underwhelming. Its like the devs went overboard with the changes. Totem spots were harder to find, which cause survivors to waste more time doing other things than gens. Now you take a couple of hex perks and hear the thunder sound, before you see the first survivor.
I´m not sure about the infinites. But chases were different back then. More running in circles. Less shift w like now. Back then BBQ was part of every killers loadout. Which gave killers a new objective after a hook. So camping/tunneling existed, but wasn´t as prevalent as now. Simply, because it wasn´t the optimal play.
Some perks were really busted back then. The i win button E. Weaponized DS. It sure wasn´t fun for killers that didn´t tunnel. Yet got hit with DS, because survivors repaired in their face. Which probably was one of the reasons why the perks got changed. Maybe a bit to much. Devs probably haven´t reversed so controversial changes, simply because the perks were to strong.
Escape rates being higher, could also be explained by the lack of survivors suiciding. Like they do now on every occasion. I think it became more prevalent in the last 2 1/2 years. I blame a mix of the sbmmr and the archives for it. Archives give out so ridiculous quests, that require players to play bad on purpose. If they want to complete a challenge fast. Meanwhile the sbmmr, isn´t what was originally promissed. It just takes kills vs escapes into account. A basement bubba with 4 hooks = deaths would be considered more skilled than a huntress that got 9 hooks. But only 1 kill. Equally, a player could run the killer for the whole match and then get face camped at the end. Meanwhile the survivors that just did gens and nothing else, would be considered more skilled. Because they survived.
Anyway, i think DbD is in a healthier spot for both sides now. Its not perfect. But definetly better now.
Totally agree with you here on every point. Hexes were over nerfed to the point that they're only truly viable if you bring Pentimento. Playthings definitely not bad and Devour's can still be very scary but with how long the games gone on now, most people know totem locations and if they don't theres always the RNG that it can spawn literally right in front of them or out in the open.
The amount of times I used to get hit by DS even after I hooked somebody else was wayyyy too much 😅
I also think that a big reason for survivors suiciding more is due to the DC penalty and a way to get around it, a double edged sword essentially.
The archive challenges are often times baffling 😂 Essentially most of them read to me as "throw the game for your team or yourself. do this in a single trial."
And completely agree about the SBMMR system being flawed, it overlooks the most important thing a SBMMR system should look for, skill. You can't have a functioning system if skill is just an arbitrary metric.
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@satx3241 said:
I wouldn't doubt in the least that is happening. I saw a ghostface main on tiktok awhile back that specifically said he farms every few matches and will frequently give the last survivor the hatch because he doesn't want the data to make it look like ghostface needs to be nerfed. If there are killers doing things in an effort to intentionally skew the data there is no doubt in my mind there are survivors doing the same thing.
You gotta have a slight ego problem if you think that your sole performances with a killer that's played by thousands of people worldwide are going to be the reason they get nerfed...
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I can't get over the fact that there's so many people in this thread that are trying to justify nerfs to a weak killer that they don't even play when the Pig mains with thousands of hours are saying that this is directly a nerf to her power. Holy DbD.
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Nothing you can do but pray at that point 😂
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I can't lie I'm a little disappointed as well in this regard, I was definitely expecting a different type of power and it doesn't really seem to fit his theme at all, but I'll try to reserve further judgement there until I actually play him.
This is also one of the very few times I've ever been disappointed in the design for one of their original killers as well (ahem Skull Merchant). I think they tried to lean a little too hard into the body horror theme and to me at least it's less scary than it is goofy. The animations are super cool but he just doesn't really do it for me scary wise, I just chuckle every time I see him.
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@Tsulan said:
Could you specify, what exactly is so unbearable in solo queue right now? Since there are so many threads, it should be easy to pinpoint.
Lets say, whats worse, compared to... lets say 2020?
Objectively speaking, I’d say that survivor was for sure in a better spot (including solo queue) in 2020. Now don’t confuse this as me saying it was healthier, killer was in a way worse position than compared to now and it’s way better balance wise for both sides now then it was then, a necessary change.
But as to your question, the things that were better for survivor in 2020 would be a mix of things that have been changed over the years, mostly map layouts/spawns, and overpowered perks. Map layouts used to give you chain after chain of tiles, the vast majority of them being safe. This was also during a time where anti-loop killers were not very prevalent being that Pyramid Head (you could very well argue Demo) kind of started that trend, he was released halfway through 2020. Correct me if I’m wrong too but I believe there were still certain infinites in the game at this time as well (I’m thinking about Groaning Storehouse). Most killers followed your standard M1 gameplay and add that onto the broken maps that favored survivor, that’s already a big enough advantage to say survivor was in a better spot than it is currently (maps are still a big issue but objectively more fair than they were layout wise). Gens took 50 seconds less in total to complete. Killer regression relied almost entirely on one perk (Ruin) that was in the utter hands of RNJesus that your totem didn’t spawn directly in front of survivors (this was also before they revamped totem locations).
Perks like Dead Hard for distance, Balanced Landing not giving you a stagger even when exhausted making certain loops close to infinites, 5 second stun DS paired with unbreakable (the infamous small pp build), made it so tunneling (which also wasn’t quite as prevalent as it is now, not to say it still didn’t happen) was not nearly as viable as it is currently. Items like medkits could give you personally multiple heals throughout the game. Toolboxes and BNPs were much much stronger and could guarantee a gen done by yourself in like 35-40 seconds, etc.
I definitely didn’t touch on everything and am for sure forgetting some absolutely broken things, but I truly think that survivor and by extension solo queue was objectively in a better spot in 2020. And l want to reiterate again that this doesn’t mean it should go back to that in that sense. It wasn’t very enjoyable (at least for me) to play killer back then as you constantly had a stacked hand against you, the games in a much, much better state of balance currently.
Objectively speaking though, when thinking about statistics, survivor escape rates (don’t even want to guess what they were I’m not sure) were definitely higher than they currently are. I think that’s what most people mean when they say solo queue is in a rough spot, it’s very hard to escape currently compared to how it was in the past.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3655910#Comment_3655910
Why aren’t wet crying about Trickster eco is 2% faster than her? Nobody cares about him I guess. Also they are using shiny pin. Which needs to be removed.
Trickster takes 8 knives to damage you, huntress takes 1…
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The aesthetic and art team knocked it out of the park once again, but once again they’re let down by the actual execution of the killer and perks on both sides.
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@TheycallmeLix said:
another thirst trap survivor like Thalita, this is probably never gonna stop
its all about cosmetic sales
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@Adaez said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654463#Comment_3654463
This is not true, most people quit, and dont come back to the game after hearing how bad and unfun the gameplay health is.
Its like advertising a food product that looks good on the poster, but when you open to eat it, it tastes awul even if it looks so good on the outside.
I guarantee you if the first Residen Evil chatper would have been released today, after BHVR fixed the corse issues with an operation health chapter, that 100k+ player online at the same time would have stayed instead of plummeting almost immediatly.
Now the steam player count ranges around 30-40k or even lower.
That's just how it works though, no game can hold their peak player count. I totally agree that an operation health chapter would be great for the game and in the long run would help with player retention, but the game is almost 8 years old now and the fact that they still have consistently stayed at or above their average player counts for that long proves that until DbD gets an actual competitor, it's not going to just die. It will be a very slow decline over the course of years until they stop providing live service.
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@Adaez said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654432#Comment_3654432
I couldn't agree more with this!
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654441#Comment_3654441
Its crazy that's what most people are asking for and not new content and yet all that we're getting is afterthought bandaids that are not reall fixing the real problem .
Yeah sadly I can’t really see them ever going through an Operation Health chapter as new content is what brings people to/back to the game and a large chunk of their revenue besides skins. They unfortunately, as most big businesses do, have metrics to hit every quarter and I can’t imagine a health chapter would go over too well with the higher ups. It’d be pretty cool though…
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3654430#Comment_3654430
Oh look I I know there is some of that at play but I have been playing DBD for 5 years now and I take long breaks so I return somewhat refreshed.
But also I think my attitude has changed a lot over the years to the point I really don't care anymore whether I live or die. I play for Head On stuns, blinds, flashbangs and good chases so I don't care if I 'win' as far as escaping goes
Oh absolutely, I can 100% appreciate that. Thats for sure a good mindset to carry in this game.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
I honestly don't get what all the crying and bitching is about lately and I say this as a survivor main myself. I recently came back (lights out mode drew me in) and have been really enjoying DBD.
The game was so survivor sided for so long it is nice to have it feeling more balanced now, even though an asymmetrical game will NEVER be truly balanced by its inherent design.
As someone who also recently came back from an extended break, you’re probably in the honeymoon phase (at least I was), play for another week to two and see if you still feel this way. It’s entirely possible you do but for me personally I’ve been playing 80/20 killer recently. Survivor feels like a chore.
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I think by 2025 the game has at least one mainstay of something like 2v8, 5v5, etc.
(One can hope at the very least)