MrPenguin
MrPenguin
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Everyone learns at different speeds.
It is possible to never get "good" at a game, however that is usually more so about mindset or mental blocks, not inherently not being able to. Most times the person in question doesn't even realize that they're holding themselves back or what exactly it is that is holding them back.
For example I could be better at the game, but I really don't care enough to memorize every single tile in the game, the 5 ways to run each one, and what does have working collision and doesn't. In addition to not having the time of someone whose job is the game. I have better things in life to do. But I'm fine with that.
If you really want to get better my advice would be to really focus on one thing at a time. Awareness for example. Just playing for the sake of playing or aimless "get better" won't be much help. Just a little more purpose goes a long way. Instead of "get better" try "get better at pinpointing the killer, especially in chase". Once you're happy with that move to the next.
Prestige is just for personal achievement or bragging right to others who care about that stuff, which afaik is not many. After P3 there's no gameplay reward and after 9 there's no reward at all. I really wouldn't focus on it unless you personally want to.
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532343#Comment_3532343
Again, you're acting as if I want Xeno to be a toned-down Pyramid Head. I'm not saying it should be easy to dodge the ability. It would ruin the whole purpose of what a killer is. Is Pyramid Head's ability easy to dodge in higher MMR? No, absolutely not. But there's still a chance to react to his attack. Something Xeno lacks.
Sure, we can buff turrets to mitigate the issue. I wouldn't mind at all.
"Is Pyramid Head's ability easy to dodge in higher MMR?"
Yes. That's why you wait for an animation lock playing as him. Unless you're playing more for fun than to win.
If I get hit by a PH shot while I'm not stuck in an animation that's 100% my fault. It has a sound que before and during the shot, a giant red warning strip on the floor, a delay before it even starts traveling, then it needs to actually reach me. It's pretty easy to dodge on reaction in my experience.
Do you want Xeno to be similar?
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@mikewelk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3532071#Comment_3532071
Your belief doesn't mean anything and contributes absolutely nothing here. Tell me why you believe that because, you know, that's how arguments work.
Umm, I was asking what your balance point was and that didn't get answered. You're being unnecessarily hostile.
Are you concerned about the average player or good players?
Most people I see are putting them in A-tier, that's the general opinion, and for "good" players that's the "balance" tier afaik, hence why for example Huntress is considered balanced in general.
But the average player struggles with anything around B-C tier in my experience, so obviously A tier would be too much for them.
So before even trying to talk about anything I need to know your viewpoint and what you're talking about and you should probably answer a question that's asked. Since you know, that's how discussions work.
They're too strong for who?
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Really depends on the killer.
The majority of the killer cast are at the mercy of the survivors skill level being... less than great before even factoring in things like maps generally also being stronger for the survivors. So in most cases no.
But the killers at the top end feel powerful once you get good at them.
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What are you using for your balance point?
For the average potato player, yeah they might be a bit strong but that's not saying much.
For really good players I don't believe it's Nurse Blight level which is necessary to compete.
For above average players they're probably fine since that's where A tier is "balanced" I believe and most people seem to put the Xeno in A tier.
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It's a known issue if you're running the game fullscreened.
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Not just MFT but resilience and hope are also all in top 10 🤣
"It's just a fun build bro. Let survivors have fun."
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Turrets are fine. They shouldn't be a guaranteed power eraser and if the killer slips up once around them powers gone but they have a chance to counter if they play well.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3529063#Comment_3529063
Otz definetely is good killer but I think it shows average killer can win good amount of games without tunneling too. Or at least experienced killer can. It is harder now that gen rushing is more common as well.
Yeah but sometimes survivors can make 2 gens quickly but after that they do nothing but it's hard to tell as killer when that happens. So I don't always go immediatelly to tunneling. But 3 gen in first chase is very rough so after that I barely leave hook it's debressing. But then survivor has wasted too much your time and only option left is to tunnel like I said earlier.
Yeah I agree for the most part. If you're experienced/above average you can get away with it more. Things like killer choice, build, and map factor in of course but overall yeah.
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So how I normally play.
For fairness add slamming gens to the list, there's going to be new killers too.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3528545#Comment_3528545
Even that extreme what he says killer typically does not tunnel or camp immediatelly after first hook usually they go after someone else and usually tunnel when it becomes neccessary. Hard tunneling usually happens if survivor wastes too much killer time after there is no more options to killer win.
Some do it ofcourse immediatelly at 5 gens but that rather rare. Most play to have some fun but still enough efficiently that they win most of their games. Otz had video where he didn't tunnel and still had 80% winrate so certainly possible to win other ways. Now employing tunneling when neccessary I figure even average killer can have good winrate playing fairly.
Well, I wouldn't use Otz as a measuring stick for the general player base considering his job is to live and breathe the game.
But yeah my experience has been about the same where most killers won't tunnel immediately unless pushed. Camping from the start I've had more frequently but it hasn't been crazy thankfully.
Additionally when 2-3 gens can pretty easily pop in the first chase it's also not uncommon to have 1 hook, 2 gens left, and that's already in tunnel/camp territory for most players.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3528444#Comment_3528444
i mean what’s fun about being the first chased and knowing that you’re dead lol. “Loop the killer for 5 gens or sit on hook all match your choice” is pretty much what happens in dbd when you’re the first one found and If you’re not being chased you’re doing nothing but Gens I fail to see how this is fun for either side or healthy.
It's generally not fun for either side nor healthy for the game. But it's also not fun to lose, have gens race, get pallet bagged, gate stalled ect.
Players would rather not have fun and win than not have fun and lose, and there's plenty of players who have fun because they're winning, regardless of how.
Survivors would rather slam gens and killer would rather tunnel and camp. Because both would rather win than lose.
The only solution without a mass rework of the fundamental game mechanics is for both sides to agree to play for fun. But I don't see survivors agreeing to stop sniffing gens to give the killer leeway to 12 hook nor vice versa. The general online community just can't be trusted to not be sweaty, so your best bet is to be sweaty back.
I say this as someone who rarely tunnels and camps, it's not like I'm getting props after every game or anything for letting people have fun. It's actually the reverse, a lot of survivors will still be toxic and BM in end game chat or at the gate. So a nice first step would be for that not to happen at the least.
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Tunneling and camping aren't toxic as long as they remain the strongest way for a killer to play the game the same way slamming gens is not toxic.
Annoying sure, unfun sure, should be replaced with a better game design sure, but not toxic.
You're not targeting people because you want to ruin their game, you're just trying to win. As opposed to something like t-bagging which has no purpose but to be a taunt and BM and target the other player maliciously.
Unless you mean "toxic" as in unhealthy for the game design in which case yes, but that's not how most people mean it.
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@BlazenW01f said:
So something I noticed is how it's almost impossible to get a hit with his tail if the survivors aren't in an animation. For example in one of my games I was not even 20 meters away from a survivor and I do my tail attack. The tail clearly hit them (i saw it go through their body) but they run away like nothing happened at all.
@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/389565/xenomorphs-tail-hit-box
20 meter? His tail range is about the same as Nemesis's tentacle (so about 6m - I don't know precise number).
It's 4.8 for Xeno and 5-6 for Nemesis depending on tier. So at all stages it's shorter then Nems.
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If the new killer is getting bullied out the gate that most likely means they're not strong.
Removing the DC penalty won't fix that.
Before anyone says "the killers have to learn the power" the survivors also need to learn the counterplay. If its already obviously lopsided it's not a good sign. i.e. Singularity
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The devs definitely do not listen to high MMR players, they just said Trapper is perfectly fine when pretty much every player who is good at the game has been saying he's the absolute worst killer and needs big changes for years now. Among other examples (MFT, Nurse, ect. not being touched).
High MMR is still very difficult for killers that aren't Nurse Blight Spirit and debatably a select few others.
The game is more or less balanced at a mid to mid-low level, you might just be under that. Maybe getting unlucky with teammates. Hence why the game kinda falls apart for the vast majority of the killer cast once a decent-good team of survivors gets involved.
Bad solo q teammates is not a balance problem, you can't balance for stupid. Realistically at least. That said there should be at least a ping system or something to help out.
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The chase theme itself was really bad.
The rest of it like the TR was fine.
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@Cypherius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3517434#Comment_3517434
I agree with most of what you said and know about the comp restrictions. And i do think that this game heavily favors Swfs at the highest levels.
But most tryhard swfs you encounter in matchmaking are nowhere near the level of a comp Swf in terms of skill level. Non Comp swfs can be beaten by A tier killers. At B tier and bellow you are going to struggle against good survivors though.
My point is that outside of Comp play you don't need Blight or Nurse to do well as killer, even against experienced survivors. So i don't agree with the notion that they need to stay as strong as they are to deal with Swfs.
Both sides have overpowered/unfair things. Instead of justifying one Op thing (Blight/Nurse) with another (Buckle up + FtP /MfT) i would rather nerf both things. Neither are healthy for the game.
They make up for not being as good as actual comp by being able to meta perk and item stack. You don't need to be a comp level SWF when you can just run 4 MFT+Hope+Resi ect. and have your perks carry you.
End result is the same: most killers can't compete if the survivors aren't bad at the game. It's not as bad as actual comp but its still too much for most of the killer cast.
The main thing keeping most killers "playable" is that the majority of survivors are bad. It falls apart as soon as you encounter a decent-good team.
Whether that's balanced or not is dependent on viewpoint, but if we're using "the average survivor" as a balance point we also need to use "the average Blight" which is not getting amazing results due to difficulty to play. So he would be fine under that model.
If we're using "good Blights" we need to use "good survivors" which would mean 80-90% of the killers need buffs.
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@lifestylee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3523072#Comment_3523072
2k is a draw i think bhvr sees it like that aswell
Correct.
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@jajay119 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522535#Comment_3522535
That's what BHVR say is a win and it's their game, so yes it is.. 4Ks are meant to be exceptional wins and right now they're not.
...
Anyway the amount of palates that are pointless now is ridiculous. Many if them aren't even worth using now because by the time you've completed the animation the killer is on the other side with you. I will happily take a reduced number of palates if they're more useful..
BHVR themselves have said a 2k is a draw, 3k and 4k are a win.
They said this in their MMR dev stream iirc.
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@versacefeng said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522399#Comment_3522399
A lot of the maps you listed have pallets that are fair for every killer or utter garbage, notably Dead Dawg and Midwich. With the exception of Disturbed Ward, Badham, Temple, the average number on pallets on the rest of these maps are unproblematic.
The maps were picked at random. I don't think having 17 pallets on average is "unproblematic", as that's not even including windows. Some maps are over 20.
I also disagree that they're mostly "fair or utter garbage" especially for M1 killers but we can just agree to disagree there. The main point was the number of pallets.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3522369#Comment_3522369
There's like 8-10 pallets on most maps and half are bad.
LOL I wish there were at most 10 pallets on a map or ever just 8. I loaded into a few quick custom game with Zanshin on a few maps just to check.
On average there's 17 pallets on a map. Saying "8-10" is some strong survivor copium/bias. It's roughly double that. That's not even including maps like Cowshed, The Game, RPD, Garden of Pain, or Borgo.
Numbers for those who care:
- Ormond - 18
- Suffocation Pit - 14
- Wreckers yard - 13
- Badham - 18
- Lampkin - 13
- Midwitch - 25
- Gas Haven - 14
- Chapel - 16
- Dead Dawg - 16
- Eyrie - 15
- Temple - 19
- Ironworks - 24
- Sanctum - 12
- Residence - 13
- Ward - 20
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@Pulsar said:
Some people would not survive in old DBD.
Other than Borgo and Garden of Pain, I've generally found maps to have too few pallets more often than too many.
As someone who's played since Clown was released, yes maps still generally have too many pallets imo.
Just because they had more before doesn't mean it's not still too much now.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
That's just RNG for you. Sometimes you get handful, sometimes it's a truckload, and there's no way to plan for it (other then The Game, which always has an absurd number of them).
One of the many reasons DBD is so imbalanced (and umbalancable).
I mean, they could make the RNG range smaller so instead of 10-25 it's like 10-15 or something.
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@Skillfulstone said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3521070#Comment_3521070
While I do agree, there's not much to be done to truly discourage tunnelling as far as base mechanics go.
The only thing I can think of would be to greatly reduce bp gain if hooking the same Survivor twice within a short window of time after unhook, and completely remove bp gain if a Survivor is hooked 3 times in a row in this fashion.
I also think that bp gain should exponentially increase when hooking different Survivors to encourage spreading hooks (kinda-like BBQ did to some extent before).
Well thats why you add more base mechanics. If they can add base BT, EGC, and potentially base UB in the future they can add a base anti-tunnel and reward system.
As for BP, that's not good enough and never will be, at least on its own. You need something that impacts the match itself for the positive and negative.
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Yeah that's the first thing I thought of
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We need base game changes not more perk baind-aids.
Anti-tunneling system coupled with making spreading pressure between the survivors actually a competitive tactic.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514150#Comment_3514150
I define tunneling focusing only on one survivor until they're death chasing and hooking them again and again. Well if you do hook one survivor and go after weak link and hook them and go after them well yes it's tunneling. But what I do is still usually go after someone else and if it does not work out then I come back for weak link so then it's not tunneling.
I just did that in my last match. Hooked kate then jake and went after laurie didn't work out so I went after jake again and hooked then went for laurie and hooked them and after that I found jake and took him out. So there was no tunneling. But I did got blamed for tunneling by jake and appearently I should quit as I don't have the level... Can't imagine what the chat it's on pc and when you actually tunnel.
Majority of the survivors are not in the skill level you need to tunnel to win. There are lot of soloQ players it's not like 4 man swf are that common. Well we could just say 90% dbd players are bad/worse well better word would be casual. If everyone would be good then 2K would be usually maximium result for killer even tunneling is not enough agains't good survivors even if you play nurse and blight.
But most luckily are not that level usually not even that 4 man swf you face. So there is usually enough time to win if you play effieciently. There are definetely many games I have lost because I have had tunnel vision on one survivor like I said before don't tunnel strongest link that's why it's smart to take at least ond more chase maybe not everyone is that good. Well I do usually squeeze 2K from those games but I did want to win.
When survivors just rush gens I go straight away for tunneling whoever got hooked first before I tried to force second stage with camping as well now you can't do it. I just try to secure kill I can. Those games usually are unwinnable and it's only way to get something out of them.
Still sometimes im able to win and sometimes I win by actually stopping the tunneling as others come to protect I have slugged them all. So even there are still other playstyles to win. But like I said I actually jisy aim to get that one kill and tunneling is great for that and opens possibility for 2K.
Well the bar for "needing to tunnel to win" (realistically) is also influenced by killer choice and the killers own skill level as well. A Clown or trapper will need to do it a lot more than an Artist or Huntress.
90% might be a bit high but I agree that more than not are casual players.
Both are valid imo. If you want to take your (tbf good) chances on the survivor skill level you can, but if you want to play efficiently in case they're better than most I can't say that's wrong either. Against casuals the efficient route will also win as well. So in that regard I believe it covers more bases.
It's the weird middle ground where you have some causals and some strong players in your game where it varies and get situational.
I think it really just depends on your viewpoint and if you're playing for the best case scenario or the worst one.
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I mean, we could just remove map offerings entirely. They're mostly just abused anyway.
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She has her fans that enjoy playing her I guess.
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No, it's time to nerf maps and pallet amounts and has been for a while.
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Having something happen when you "fail" isn't necessarily a problem on its own, its that its way too strong.
i.e. Desperate Measures and Spirit Fury are fine, MFT isn't.
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He's a very "knowledge check" killer. If you don't understand how his chain hunts work you will have a bad time. Yes that includes the spawn logic.
On the flipside if you do its not that bad, arguably easy.
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I've been hearing they were busted. Maybe the feedback of them being to strong was taken into account?
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It's nice to look at while I chill because I loaded up on the only map I refuse to take or play seriously on as killer.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514273#Comment_3514273
There is no universally accepted definition of tunneling, camping, or gen rushing. It means something different to everyone. The reason we've had so many definitions is primarily because of salt.
A killer loses a game because they spent 5 minutes chasing one survivor, so they lash out and call the survivors genrushers. A survivor deliberately provokes the killer and repeatedly body blocks using BT after being unhooked, so they lash out in the endgame chat and call the killer a tunneler. Before we got basekit BT and even before BT, survivors would go for unsafe rescues and then blame the killer for not letting them go. There is a history of people blaming their mistakes on others.
The game has evolved so much since then, and with it, our idea of what these strategies actually are. Gen Rush used to refer to bringing a BNP in to instantly complete a generator, and it was gen rushing since the entire team could do it and have all gens completed before the killer could even do anything. The match would be over in 2 minutes.
After BNP got nerfed to instantly consume the toolbox and all its charges for a total of 25% repair progression, the only way to actually gen rush was to use builds that increased the speed at which you could repair generators. This required commodius toolboxes with BNP and Prove Thyself with survivors doubling up on gens. Particularly confident survivors would run No Mither with Resilience for even more repair speed.
Genrushing could also mean prioritizing generators over rescuing a hooked survivor who isn't being camped, but with the changes to hatch and keys, doing that is detrimental rather than beneficial. Most of the old strategies surrounding gen rushing related to how stacked the game was in the survivor's favor. Hatch used to spawn invisible at the start of the match, and survivors could locate it by being observant. They used to be able to use a key to escape early provided enough gens were done.
Genrushing could also refer to what you've said, which is doing generators instead of totems and chests. The only reason to do totems if the killer wasn't running a Hex was to rule out NOED, but aside from that and extra bloodpoints, survivors never really had any incentive to do totems. They don't progress the objective, after all. It was a poorly thought-out secondary objective that relied entirely on survivors willingness to do something entirely optional that provides them with zero benefit.
The only reason to open chests was to try to obtain a key, assuming you didn't bring one, which most did not due to the stigma surrounding keys. Killers would tunnel out the person with the key.
OP's post is contradictory in that they say that it isn't genrushing if the killer loses 3 gens in two minutes, but it is genrushing if survivors don't do "other objectives". By that logic, the killer should never lose 3 gens in two minutes because the survivors should be wasting their time doing totems.
If something isn't beneficial, however, it is a waste of time and every second counts in Dead by Daylight. The killer isn't going to go easy just because people are goofing around. They're just going to consider that an easy win.
It used to be considered camping patroling the hook because somebody's waiting nearby to go for the rescue. It also used to be considered camping if the killer lingered by the hook for more than a second.
It used to be considered tunneling if the killer committed to a chase instead of playing a hit and run playstyle. It used to be considered tunneling if the killer chased you for too long. It used to be considered tunneling if you got hit with old DS.
There have been many definitions, and each one has had its fair share of people who say it's something different while also having it's fair share of people who agree with the definition.
The community will never be able to agree on a single definition. Threads like this one only add to the confusion. Just use common sense. If you've hooked one survivor twice before you've hooked anyone else, and the only thing they did was exist, you tunneled them. If you've hooked Steve, then Bill, then Steve again, that isn't tunneling. It also isn't tunneling if Steve used his BT to take a hit for his rescuer.
If you lost two or more gens in the first 40 seconds of the match, that's a genrush. If you lose two gens after 60 seconds, that's a 2-1 split which isn't a gen rush. If it takes 52.98 seconds to complete a gen with two people, and it takes 90 seconds to complete a generator solo, that's one and a half gens done in 53 seconds.
Fair enough. If its all subjective though then the words really have no meaning and there's no point even debating about what means what.
IMO if the killer can "killrush" basekit then the survivors can "genrush" basekit. They're playstyles not builds. Anything else would be a double standard.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513824#Comment_3513824
You do need a build to genrush. Tunneling doesn't require a build because you're targeting the survivor who's just been unhooked with the intention of removing them from the match.
Survivors ignoring totems and chests because they don't progress their objective is not genrushing. Genrushing is doing generators as fast as possible, which you cannot do without a build. Splitting up on gens is not genrushing. You are not supposed to be able to defend all seven generators for the entire game.
The killer may not feel like it's worth their time to go chase someone else, but the fact of the matter is that if the killer is tunneling, the person being tunneled barely gets to play the game while the other three survivors don't really get to interact with the killer.
If the killer never pressured the other three survivors and got ran for 5 gens, they didn't lose because they got genrushed; they lost because they failed to prevent the survivors from completing their objective.
The survivors objective is to power the exit gates by repairing the generators. Their win condition is escaping.
The killer's objective is to prevent the survivors from completing their objective. Their win condition is to kill all four survivors by any means.
Killers complain that gens go too fast, but how can they be when solos are running perks like Plunderers, Ace in the Hole, Empathy and Bond? The reality is that killers will often ignore their surroundings just to get that one down.
There is no stigma behind trying to win. The stigma behind tunneling and genrushing is because it sucks the fun out of the game for one side. You aren't simply trying to win at that point, because tunneling and genrushing aren't necessary. At that point, you're trying to win as quickly as possible.
A killer doesn't need a build to tunnel because they only need to hook the same survivor three times. Survivors need a build to genrush because it takes 90 seconds to repair a generator solo, 53 seconds for two people, 42 seconds for three, and 40 seconds for four.
Those numbers change depending on the killer's perks, and if the survivors brought toolboxes and perks like hyperfocus. A genrush build could see survivors complete gens solo in 51 seconds or less.
You are blatantly wrong about what genrushing is, and your whole argument is that it's the natural state of survivor when it isn't. Nobody's out here demanding the killer injure all four survivors before committing to a chase. So why should survivors do totems and chests for it to not be genrushing? Spreading your hooks out is not even close to being equal to survivors doing totems and chests.
OP's post and others also doesn't list that a build is needed.
If you have the dictionary definition somewhere I would like to see it, but afaik there isn't one.
I disagree and think you're the one in the wrong.
At this point we're just not going to agree, I think you have a fundamental misunderstand and you likewise with me. The conversations not going to go anywhere imo.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513774#Comment_3513774
If you tunnel right away you might actually tunnel the strongest link that's why it's better to chase others and identifyi the weak link. Sometimes there is not even obvious weak link so then focusing on two might be better. Tunneling on paper might be best for getting someone out but not always in practise.
If the tunneled one runs to let's say garden of joy main building or shack is it worth to chase? But the unhooker runs to deadzone. On blight/nurse tunneling is best option for that as then RNG and survivor skill won't matter as much.
Anyway when I see that -1 it does not feel like a win. Though I don't watch it anymore. But if you want to red grade spreading hooks is best option and tunnel only when you can do it quickly but maybe not at beginning as other survivors might just dc or suicide so then it backfires. But I think pipping needs rework.
Camping still works for few killers like huntress and bubba but for others they just have to watch when survivor is unhooked last second. If you get first down quickly you're quaranteed 2K on bubba and if they make mistake then 3K is possible.
I mean, finding the weakest link to then tunnel them is still tunneling. So tunneling is still the best option. Additionally if there is no weak link, then you put yourself in a worse position than if you just tunneled the first guy. In either case tunneling is still the best option.
What do you do if every survivor runs to the main building or shack? Chase no one? Again you'd just put yourself in a worse position than if you just committed.
Yes you can try to avoid it for a weaker player, and that's a gamble you can take. But at the end of the day, not tunneling is only better if one of the survivors is bad and you find them early enough. At that point its not the strategy that's better, it's your opponent who is worse.
Anything can work against bad/worse players.
Its one of the big reasons SWF is such an outlier, they can filter out bad players and make it so there is no weak link.
Imo we should be talking about the game in a state where all the plyers are good at the game, not when there's a skill imposter you have to find.
Again, not saying it cant win to not tunnel, that's how I play and I still win games. But "it can win" and "it's your best shot" are 2 different things.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513824#Comment_3513824
You're kind of off here mate, Generators are their main objectives, not doing optional things that might not do anything for them is supposed to be gen rushing? Come on dude... That would be the same as saying if the killer does not kick every breakalbe door on a map he is kill rushing... Just because it is a side objective does not mean you need to do it, if you play efficient you only do what is necessary to reach your goal, escape. By your definition every survivor team that is just doing gens and then leaving is gen rushing... This does not make any sense. Prioritising gens is literally their goal, the survivors would be doing something wrong if they would do all 5 totems just for the sake of it... Let's say they know all the killers perks, because they are fairly obvious to see, they know have 0 reasons to do the totems, except for the bp, and you're saying they are gen rushing now? Because a. they all have items, so no reason to open chests b. no hex perks or boons or potential noed is in the game so no reason to do totems...
Instead of that you can just say they are genrushing because they are not just standing around doing nothing (usefull) for 70 seconds... Like what do you expect people to do? xD
Generators are the main objective for survivor and kills are for killer.
Killers getting kills ASAP is tunneling (or kill rushing in your words), the equivalent is survivors getting gens done ASAP which is gen rushing.
I don't expect survivors to "stand around and do nothing", I don't expect killers to spread hooks, I expect them to genrush and tunnel. I never said I want survivors not to genrush. That's the best option to win the game.
Just because its the main objective doesn't change a thing. If anything that's why it's done.
They are gen rushing. Why is that such a big deal? They're trying to win. It is what it is dude.
What I do want is for the devs to change the game so those are no longer the best strats and have it be balanced, especially tunneling. But we're not living in that world nor is that the current point.
Also you're taking it to extremes by saying that the killer has to do absolutely everything possible besides the main objective to not be a tunneller. Extremes are usually not good arguments to make. I never said "you have to do all the totems, chest, heal every injury, help every chase". But if you're minimizing those things to only when necessary in favor of slamming gens, then your gen rushing.
Replace that with killers and kills and its the same. If you're only interacting with other survivors besides the one you're focusing down when necessary or convenient, you're tunneling/kill rushing.
You want the kill ASAP, you want the gen ASAP.
If the playstyles main goal is to RUSH the objective, then they are gen rushing/kill rushing. Which is to be expected, as that's the win condition.
Like I keep saying, you can be "nice" and "fun" and not do that. But you have no real reason to do that. Its not "bad" and the stigma that trying to win is "bad" is ridiculous. On both sides.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513793#Comment_3513793
Genrush is not the natural state of survivor. You're suggesting that doing gens is genrushing. Survivors don't have any need to open chests. There's no point in wasting time on totems if the killer has a hex. Helping someone in chase just means the killer is pressuring two survivors instead of one. Why should survivors goof around for any significant length of time unless they're throwing?
Maybe you missed the part where the killer needs to pressure multiple survivors to get them to slow down on gens. A killer who camps, for example, isn't getting genrushed. He's only pressuring one survivor. What are the other three supposed to do? Politely wait their turn?
You can't "rush" generators if you don't have perks and items to increase repair speed. Multiple survivors working on the same gen isn't genrushing.
I think you don't have any idea what you're talking about, and you're just trying to blur the definition of genrushing.
No you don't need a build to genrush the same way you don't need a build to tunnel.
It doesn't matter whether the survivors believe totems and chest and w.e. are worth their time or not, the fact of the matter is they're still ignoring them in favor of gens.
The killer doesn't feel like it's worth their time to delay their kill to go chase someone else or kick a gen or w.e.
Does that make it not tunneling? No, they're still doing it regardless.
I didn't miss anything, that part is irrelevant. Its not about pressure it's about the player(s) doing its decision to do so. The killer camping or not doesn't change that the survivors are deciding to focus the gens. It might personally push you into deciding to do it, but you're still doing it.
Of course multiple survivors working on the same gen isn't genrushing, as I said earlier I specified splitting up is. Working on the same gen slows you down, actively detrimental. At least until the end where there's only 1-2 gens left to do.
I think you don't know what you're talking about. Cool now that's canceled out and we can drop ad hominem arguments ty.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513648#Comment_3513648
What you're saying is that just doing gens is genrushing, which makes no sense.
Why not?
You're rushing the gens. By necessity that means you have to be doing them.
There's a difference between focusing majorly on gens and not. i.e. totems, chest, goofing around, helpign others in chase
But most players don't care about those things so they just end up genrushing.
Genrush is the natural state of survivor in the game currently and has been for a long time.
Is that wrong? No. Is it a problem? Depends on what you mean. Problem that they're doing it? No they're just trying to win. Problem balance wise? Imo Yes. Problem for the killers "fun"? Yes.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513400#Comment_3513400
There are other efficient tactics than just tunneling and camping. They're not always optional more like win or lose badly tactics they do not quarantee anything. Decent survivors know to do gens while killer camps and even usually run reassurance. Tunneling you just need to do very fast. When the survivor loops you 5 gens at the end you usually think I should tunneled harder. But it probably was not right play.
They're high risk and high reward tactics. But what separates them is they're most simple. Best tactics is not limit yourself but do what seems best play usually at beginning of match it's smarter to go some chases target 2 survivors. When either of them reach second hook then tunneling is good option and lot less risky if the survivor is in bad spot and lot less pallets left usually.
Still is also best tactics for pipping. Camping and tunneling can result depip even while 4K:ing. But I do think pipping should reworked kills should matter more and depipping standards lowered at least. 4K should be automatic pip.
Well I disregard pipping since that's not the actual win condition.
Strictly in terms of killing as many survivors as possible, getting someone out the game ASAP is always the best play. There is no reason to let anyone live longer than they need to as that will be overall detrimental in all cases.
Camping I agree pretty much is only as prevalent as it is because survivors empower it. So in certain groups it's not a good idea. But against most groups it works well enough.
Tunneling however, even if its focusing on 2 survivors back to back or focusing on the weakest link, is always the best decision you can make.
Of course it's not a guarantee, nothing is. Even doing the best tactic available you can lose for a variety of factors. Many out of your control (like the survivors skill level). Just because it doesn't have an 100% winrate doesn't mean its not the best option available.
i.e. Every survivor in the lobby is good and you're on Garden of Joy as Legion? Even using your best available tactic, you can easily lose just due to the map, not even factoring in things like unlucky RNG ect.
Just because the survivors are good doesn't change what the best option for the killer would be. Getting someone out ASAP. The alternative is just letting an additional good player stick around even longer doing more damage.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513232#Comment_3513232
Unhooking, not to camper.
Totems, why should I do a dull if it give me no benefit? Unless its a Hex or I have Inner strength.
Chest is pointless since how weak items are. I dont spend 10sec to open a chest, 24sec to self heal. While I can get a 16sec heal from teammate. Same as 10sec to open a chest, to save 5sec on Gen.
Healing? How can I heal my teammate when they're tunneled?
Well, like I said they're optional. Regardless of the reason why genrush is genrush.
If you're doing it because you don't feel like doing totems and chest, ok that's understandable, but you're still doing it.
If the killer is tunneling or camping genrush them then, it's the right play. Like I said it's not bad the same way tunneling is not bad. Trying to win isn't "evil".
You can be "nice" and not tunnel/camp/rush, but its actively harmful if you actually care about winning.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513232#Comment_3513232
Most games do involve people healing others and taking hits during chase. That's just normal gameplay. Chests and totems though aren't necessary objectives. Chests are useful towards the end of the game, when the items you have brought into the game are depleted and you could really use a medkit or something to help you potentially survive til the end. Totems are useful if you have a boon or the killer has a hex or running Plaything and/or Pentimento - that gives incentive to cleansing totems. Otherwise they're good for bloodpoints and potentially warding off NOED. Survivors avoiding chests and totems does not mean they are genrushing. They're just not necessary for their survival in the same way gens are. In the vast majority of my solo games, the killer has the upper hand. Doing chests and totems can be throwing the game.
That's fine, its the same way not tunneling can very easily be throwing the game if the survivors are good and you're not playing like, Nurse Blight Spirit.
Regardless if you feel like "the survivors only/best logical option is to genrush" it's still what they're doing.
If your games regularly involve people taking hits then that's cool, mine usually don't, people are just glued to gens. Its rare I see anyone go out of their way to help someone else in a chase unless they're SWF.
Healing is mostly done right under hook or sometimes if they go next to the gen you're working on. That's not enough on its own to not be a genrush imo. The same way I wouldn't consider a killer who hits someone once before continuing the focus the same survivor not a tunneler because they took a tiny break from doing it when it was convenient.
I did say they were optional objectives.
Again, not saying its bad. That's how to play survivor efficiently, genrush unless something pushes you to do something else.
If you want to be "nice" you can avoid slamming gens/kills, but its detrimental to do so if you care about winning in the slightest.
Its normal for survivors to genrush, its normal for killers to tunnel. The stigma around trying to win is ridiculous. On both sides.
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The only thing I disagree with is genrushing in this definition.
There's more objectives than just unhooking survivors, you have totems, you have chest, you have healing, you can help your teammates in chase ect. Yes they are optional but they are still there.
If a player(s) is just focused on getting the gens done as efficiently as possible throughout the entire match, with or without builds, they are genrushing. Splitting on gens as soon as the match starts, running straight from gen gen to gen, not helping teammates in chase, ect.
It's not inherently bad, just as tunneling isn't, both sides are just trying their best to win. Which if that's what they want to do then in all fairness that is the point of the game, to win. If its the most efficient way then it is what it is.
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From what I understand, no its not necessarily fun for most but it beats losing because you didn't do it. It's not fun to lose either and unfortunately those tactics are your best chance at winning most of the time.
But I can't say much on that personally, as I generally don't use those playstyles unless I get pushed into a situation where I feel it's necessary or deserved.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511990#Comment_3511990
Unlike GF and Myers though, Xeno has map traversal and his power seems like it'll grant way more hits you can't do with a M1. I also don't think the turrents will be THAT much of a pain. Seems like DE pumped the brakes after Singularity got screwed by EMPs.
Oh I'm sure he'll be used more than those 2, just not nearly as much as Wesker after the hype dies down. But only time will tell.
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@KoreWaPantsu said:
Just DON'T PLAY KILLER until things are getting better. Leave the "skill issue" players wait in the lobby with their absolute and unargued truth.
Yeah anytime I think "oh I kinda wanna play killer" I also remember MFT exist and I'm like "Oh right, nevermind".
I'm either playing survivor or a different game.
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@[Deleted User] said:
M1 killers can have a hard time against players who are optimizing the crap out of the game. They're fine 95% of the time. It's when you get into that top 5% and competitive level that the flaws start to show themselves.
Are mindgames possible? Yes, if both sides are participating. But a thing most players and content creators miss about survivor play at the highest level is that you don't need to optimize every tile to get the gens done. There's a reason 6 hook stages is considered a good result for an M1 killer at the comp level.
If I'm being optimal on survivor, I'm not taking the first chase to the first tile I come across and looping it. I'm pre-running to the nearest god pallet or god window on the map. There's zero mindgame potential here. Guess where I'm going after that? The next safest pallet, and I'm pre-dropping it. You are 60 seconds into this game and you haven't had a chance for a mindgame yet.
Sure, if I go to a rock filler, you might be able to mindgame me and get a hit. But why would I take that risk? What is the upside there for me as a survivor if my teammates are being efficient on gens? I can drop it early and make distance. It's like a basketball player electing to make a behind-the-back pass for no reason instead of a simple pass.
All that being said, the overwhelming majority of survivors do not play that way. And most of the killer roster has chase tools.
95% is extremely over the bar. I can run M1 killers pretty easily most of the time and I can tell you right now I'm nowhere near the top 5%.
In my opinion and experience, M1 killers start to struggle as soon as you start getting at and above a medium level of understanding/skill at the game.
Which is to say, a lot of the time.
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Doubtful imo as I don't think they're nearly as strong nor as simple as Wesker.
Yeah they have fan appeal but so does GF, Myers, ect. and they aren't seen to that degree.
Plus the turrets are an additional annoyance factor.