MrPenguin
MrPenguin
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I think it's ok that it counters perk related aura reading, gives killers some type of counter to things like Windows of Opportunity and other aura perks.
I think the real problem(s) comes in when it starts blocking base kit aura reading like slugs and that's what really hits solo q hard.
Main exception to that being Kindred, which in some form should be base kit but without the killer aura imo.
So my recommendation is to make it not block base kit aura reading but keep perks aura reading blocked; similar to how killer related object auras stay visible.
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They also could have just made the cage TP range bigger which would have helped both this issue and him tunneling in general. It's just a number change.
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PH is a little too high, Myers is too low, GF is too high.
Imo at least. Other than that I would mostly agree.
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"It just feels like I never really have any power since there are so many EMPs."
Yeah that's how most people feel playing him right now. It might not be you, the EMPs make this killer garbo as they are now.
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Because to them it doesn't really make sense to break chase and start with a new survivor who can just do the same thing. In theory you just add on the time of having to find someone else and end up in a worse situation.
It's kind of a gamble to start a chase with a new survivor and either hope they're weaker or hope they run to weaker areas or ones that have been used up already.
But a gamble is better than a guaranteed bad situation. But you have to learn that difference and not everyone does or it takes a long time.
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@EmmaFrostyEyes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448005#Comment_3448005
“Never seen a survivor give themselves as a sacrifice, but killers will give hatch.” I helped a bubba get his adept recently. And gave a knight a kill after he had a rough game. And i have a myers a kill after he was gonna get 4outed. And i offered to give clown a kill but he carried me to the gate. I have also been offered kills as killer. Just depends on how you play
I go for hooks, don't play Nurse Blight or Spirit, don't BM, and don't camp, tunnel, or slug bleedout. In my 5 years playing this game I've never seen it outside of farm matches.
"depends on how you play" my left butt cheek (no offense). The most I got was some props for basically being "a breath of fresh air" every 3rd blue moon. But most of the time? BM'd, stalled by notification spamming gate baggers, "gg ez". Some just leave quietly thankfully.
Thank you for being the survivor unicorn, but that's not a reflection of the community at all.
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@Mane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447415#Comment_3447415
Killers get kills when they've earned it, survivors get Escape when they've earned it I feel like both are within reach for the average player.
I mean, they are achievable with tunneling sure. That's still earning it.
Is it possible without? Sure. Is it reasonable? No.
The general consensus is that going for hooks is just not a consistently viable strategy with any type of competent survivor team.
If you believe that killers like Trapper, Myers, Ghostface, and Legion can go for hooks and still win against any sort of good team on a consistent basis, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I say this as someone who plays for hooks. It's not a good strategy. I just have more fun playing that way to be in chases as much as possible and to feel like I'm always active, amongst other things. I'd rather fun than be playing "optimally" but that's just me.
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@Orthane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448005#Comment_3448005
I actually have had a few Survivors give me a sacrifice. Whenever a DC happens super early I will often go for points instead and let the Survivors escape. I'll hook each of them twice and then let them heal, hit them, heal, break all the pallets and stun me and whatnot, and a few times instead of escaping one or two of them will go over to a hook and point at it and let me kill them for being nice.
Sure in a farm match I've seen it, pretty much the exact same scenario you're talking about where I lay off and go for points because of a DC, but I'm talking about in a normal game.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448922#Comment_3448922
It was just an extra thought I had to deal with the possibility of being completely ignored, which seems to happen often in this game both in the dying state and on the hook.
Yeah that definitely sucks when it happens.
Its also a tricky thing to address without negative side effects.
I believe that situation is mostly a product of the survivors not knowing who's doing what, so maybe giving survivors a chat wheel or something similar could help.
Something to help communication and teamplay. I think its silly that the survivors are supposed to be a team, yet they have no way to communicate with each other in the game itself.
I hesitate to suggest a free chat because the community can be quite... aggressive.
Survivor auras could also potentially work.
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Slugging is an issue but this solution was not it. Glad they saw that.
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"There can be another condition to deal with situations when other survivors do not go to pickup the downed survivor in a timely manner too. If the survivor is downed for more than a minute then they can fully recover on their own."
I was on board until this point.
It's the other survivors job to pick them up. This would make leaving the teammate on the ground to slam gens the best play all the time.
Why save them? They'll just pick themselves up anyway and if the survivors are competent in chase lasting a minuet is not that hard. You're better off sticking your nose to a gen.
Put the anticamp mechanic on slugs sure. Assuming the mechanic goes well which is yet to be seen. Basekit UB no. The devs just said they have no plans for that.
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@betelgeuseyes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448321#Comment_3448321
Yes. You should have to sacrifice them on the hook. That's what the game wants you to do. That's the objective.
The objective is not hooks its kills. That's why MMR is based on kills not hooks.
If the survivors die you won, doesn't matter how.
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Both sides player if that matters.
Gnerushing, or whatever you want to call it, is just survivors focusing gens. Considering most view that as the only objective, it happens most of the time.
No you don't need a perk loadout and toolboxes to be doing this, you can do it base kit just fine.
Most of the killer roster can't keep up with gen speeds outside of unfun tactics. Its just survivors being efficient and killers being efficient. But its generally unfun for both sides when the other does this.
Survivors should get a second objective and with that extra time killers have we can afford to put in stronger anticamp/tunnel features in.
Basically make the survivor objective take longer to balance for more hooks, then push killers to get said hooks. Alternatively we can make killers faster to match gen speeds.
Point is gen speeds need to be balanced out to hook/kill speeds because right now gens go a lot faster unless you tunnel which no one enjoys.
I know I'm bringing in more than just exclusively genrush but if we want to talk solutions we need to consider the other side of things.
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@Hannacia said:
Gen rushing is being used when gens go by so fast killer can't keep up and yes it happens. The term gen rushing is silly since like others have said survivors really don't have other objective. I would love the idea for survivors to get secondary objective.
Game is designed so killers usually lose 1 gen in the first chase, with toolboxes 2 sometimes even 3 all depending on perks and items. Survivors also spawn straight at gens. I think this should be fixed. Survivors should spawn edge of the map and always together. Map sizes and gen placements are also an issue, because 1 killer usually can't do many things at the same time. Chase survivor, protect gens and even maybe protect person in a hook. You have to usually choose 1.
you don't need toolboxes and perks to pop 3 gens in the killers first chase.
All 3 survivors are on gens, it makes no sense why 1 would finish it but the others won't.
Other than that yeah I agree.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448591#Comment_3448591
It sounds like I walked into a discussion that has shifted away from, or was intentionally misleading about, it's original message. I apologize for taking you as one to paint others with a broad brush.
I followed the discussion when it was originally created, weeks ago, and did not recall the conversation devolving into the absurdity you describe.
To OP's credit, they spent 2 full pages trying to keep respondants on-topic, as this discussion became increasingly inundated with whataboutism from people who disagree with OP on the basis of "your side isn't allowed to get nice things unless my side gets nice things."
It looks like once you prodded OP on their thesis, you found some skeletons hiding in the closet. ...or just someone who is inexperienced with game design/theory. Either way, you're both advocating for something to be done, and I find it comical that such conversations are hindered by those who cry "what about me?"
Tbf what I wrote previously does look that way without context and I could have been a little more specific, but thank you for being forthcoming.
I agree, it is hard to talk about these things for the reasons you mentioned.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448274#Comment_3448274
The title of this thread is "this kind of slugging shouldn't be possible." In other words, "developers, do something about this."
The body of their post goes on to state "this is why we need basekit abilities to deal with these situations."
I'm sorry, but you are wrong. OP is calling on BHVR to do something about this.
Forgive me for not reading all of OP's replies in this 5-page discussion, but if they later went on to scrutinize players for this behavior, those are supplementary opinions which exist only as commentary, and are not to be confused with OP's intentions here.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3448281#Comment_3448281
This is a gross overgeneralization of the community, that is neither constructive nor cooperative.
For starters, this is hypocrisy. You are guilty of the very complaint you lob against "survivors." My comment is completely neutral--I've merely observed that this community continues to argue about features that are notoriously unejoyable for at least one side--yet you've leapt off of it like a springboard designed to dunk on "survivors."
What's up with that?
Why are you making this out to be a partisan issue?
Do you really think someone will want to have a discussion with you if you're constantly working under the pretense that someone who disagrees with you must then also hold opinions A, B, C, and D?
Do you not see how destructive that is?
Sorry let me be more specific.
It's not all survivors, just most of the ones defending that side on this thread, including OP. I work under the pretense that someone is reasonable until they prove otherwise. They proved otherwise imo.
OP was adamant about specifically punishing killers regardless of what opinions, suggestions, solutions, ect. were brought up to them. Not changing things so its not necessary, not helping killers in situations where they realistically need to, not also gettign rid of the risk factors that make slugging the better choice. No, specifically and only punishing killers. It's clearly spiteful at least in some degree or they are heavily survivor biased (name checks out).
They are still holding this "hooks are the main objective" despite multiple others expressing its not with support from the MMR, the games code, and the devs themselves.
I told them what the objective is, and what you want it changed to are 2 different things, they clearly didn't listen given their more recent post. For what its worth I do think it should be changed to hooks, but that's not what it currently is.
I said what is currently a valid tactic and what you don't like and want it changed to are 2 different things. Didn't care.
Me: "Wanting it changed and not liking it is fine, saying people aren't allowed to play that way (currently) is different and not true."
To them, slugging makes you a horrible person and its morally wrong to do because survivors don't like it. No if ands or buts, it's not a way to win the game, it's abuse.
Hook dead zone? Survivors ran themselves to the corner? "Doesn't matter let them wiggle out". Want to avoid the 4% or hatch? "No you need to risk it". Skip the wait and just kill the survivors instantly? "I know I said that the time spent on the ground was too long and thus a problem, but that gives the killer a win so no". (paraphrasing here)
People have been bringing up issues and why killers slug and everything has been shot down.
If you didn't read most of OP's post you really shouldn't be assuming they weren't acting this or that way or hold this or that opinion when they expressed those in their other comments. Same for mine.
Here I'll quote their supposed "solution" after this entire thread.
OP: "I think if a killer slugs the entire team and leaves them all on the ground for more than a minute then the entity kills the killer and the survivor team wins."
That sounds wild to me, especially when they have not considered giving killers anything to help against survivors who will easily abuse it.
I'm neutral, I want the game to be better for both sides, I see this as a problem and have suggested ways to fix it and tried to have a discussion in this thread, along with many others. They're not being receptive.
It's not a partisan issue, I specifically said they're not receptive to the other side when approached on ways to fix it for both sides.
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Let it go to PTB first at least.
It's 16 meters, it might not even be an issue. We'd really need to test it out first.
If killers drop off the face of the game, maybe they'll finally get some changes to make not camping/tunneling viable like they've been wanting. But that's doubtful, more than likely more killers will just pick up Nurse Blight Spirit or stop playing killer.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
I find it funny that we still need to have discussions about things that are incredibly unenjoyable, and people still feel the need to debate them as if finding a solution isn't the best way forward.
Hard to do that when survivors refuse to give killers anything to actually help the reasons why they might be slugging, or even acknowledge those reasons to begin with, and are tunnel versioned on getting their way with no compromises.
They don't want solutions for both sides, they want the killers to suffer and lose because they don't play how they want them to regardless of why they are doing it.
Anything to try and balance things out for the killer side gets shot down immediately and aggressively.
Can't even get it through to them that currently the killers goal is not hooks, but kills; nor that under these rules that slugging is a valid (although unfun) tactic.
How are we going to talk about changing the system when they don't even care to understand or acknowledge the current one? They are dead set on "no the killer must be in the wrong, they need to be punished".
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@AssortedSorting said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447584#Comment_3447584
Not 12 Hook 2-Hook staggering everything, just trying to go for 12 Hooks in general. If a Survivor misplays into me, so be it. But trying to avoid leveraging current Hook mechanics in that you go for distant generators to give Survivors room to Unhook and give yourself a target to chase that hasn't been Hooked recently. If someone is unlucky and gets found repeatedly and is sacrificed quickly, that's unfortunate. But basically try not to go out of your way to do so, even though the game heavily suggests you should.
While the game shouldn't mandate this playstyle for all 12 Hooks, consciously playing in such a manner means that your MMR is set to the point that you're matched with players where a 2K2E is more towards when you've put in the most amount of effort, and a 4K actually takes less effort if you fully leverage tunneling and camping.
and what are survivors doing to give the killer breathing room in return? oh right nothing. They reap what they sow, at least some killers won't tunnel, but I've never seen a survivor give the killer the same treatment.
Never seen a survivor give themselves as a sacrifice, but killers will give hatch.
"treat others how you want to be treated" and all that. They want breathing room, they need to give it to the killer as well. They usually do the opposite and also BM the killer, especially at the gate.
Why would killers keep doing it if survivors just spit in their face? They wine if you try, yet mock you if you let them "have fun". Survivors are toxic to the killer no matter what. They cry and moan for you not to tunnel them but when you do? -t-bag- "gg ez baby killer".
It's long overdue that survivors step up and stop putting everything on killers while they slam gens and t-bag their way out the gates.
There needs to be "allow your opponent fun play" on both sides, not just one. Until that's agreed on nothing will change.
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@Mane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3447083#Comment_3447083
Correctly need? You don't need a 3K or 4K every single game, I'm not saying you shouldn't strive for that but understand that can't have your cake and eat it too goes both ways, especially considering I never said that I assume to "Correctly" win every game as Survivor nor should anyone else.
More objectives for survivors is what I was saying before, but again that doesn't mean it's going to stop tunneling you're assuming that's a playstyle that can be stopped with more time given to Killers it's not you can't stop people from playing certain ways unless it's against the rules or less rewarding.
No you don't need it every game but it should be reasonably achievable. I never said you should get it every single game. Currently it's not reasonable. Maybe if you're playing a cracked Nurse, but for the vast majority of the killer cast no.
Doing these changes alone won't stop tunneling, but these changes are needed to make not tunneling consistently viable, and to allow the space for an anti-tunnel system/mechanic to be introduced.
Preferably both happen at the same time, not tunneling becomes viable and anti-tunnel gets introduced.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3444772#Comment_3444772
Sweating and playing most optimally always ruins the games in the end just look fortnite probably prime example of that. It takes all the fun away. Same looks to happen dbd as it's becoming more sweaty. Tunnel/camp 5 gens left and gen rushing more common than ever 3 gens pop in first chase.
So put those kind of players only agains't each other. Sweaty tunneling killer should never face casual soloQ survivors. Casual killer going for hooks over kills should not face sweaty gen rush swf. Some amount of sweating is not bad if letting other side have some fun but when it comes to these strat that not the case.
Good example is that killer spreading hooks smartly and priorisating kills when he gets opportunity. Otz for example managed 80% win rate without any tunneling. Now what if he would tunneled when neccessary. But just proves hard tunneling every game is not always the best or only way to win but the most easiest and sweaty. Survivors should not bring toolboxes with BNP:s and gen rush builds. In match they should not prioritise gens over everything. Swf really just needs a nerf.
Yeah you can optimize the fun out of a game but that goes both ways.
You can't really filter the players that way, the most you can do is improve the MMR system so that if a killer or group of survivors is playing in that way, they get placed into games where they have a fair shot at winning. Whether that's because the other team is also doing sub optimal strats or they are just outclassed to the point it doesn't matter.
Otz tunnels all the time. But he also plays the game for a living. 95% of the player base is not going to reach that level where they outclass almost every pub match they are in to the point they can play for hooks frequently.
SWF might need a nerf, but MMR definitely needs to be improved and the core gameplay needs some adjustments to be more fun for both sides.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446786#Comment_3446786
You're assuming that the killer has the game sense, chase skill, and understanding of map pressure where *switching* to tunneling can be the best play.
In that sense I'd agree that they are in the correct MMR bracket. Although, I'd also say that this killer has enough knowledge to understand what went wrong, what they could've or should've done in that situation, and how they can improve in the future.
However, there's a different kind of killer who lacks game sense and/or skill, who always uses tunneling as a powerful tool immediately. These are the killers who will win and raise their MMR by sheer brute force, but then when opponents can begin to counter this strategy, they have nothing other than 'tunneling stronk' to fall back on, and that is already failing them.
You see this second type of killer a lot on this forum: where they've boosted their MMR above their skill level because tunneling is powerful and not complicated to pull off, or even because of broken perks (Eruption), and they have no introspection or perhaps even desire to consider improving.
These are the people who, when their *only* strategy of tunneling fails them, immediately close the game and post online to rant about hopeless games and survivor nerfs, while not even considering that they could have made even one mistake.
Well if they don't then their MMR will stop right there. They will be in their appropriate skill bracket. They will climb, reach a little too high, lose, drop back down, and start winning again. That's exactly what its supposed to do.
Again if MMR worked well.
Also getting a survivor out the game asap is always the best move. Anything that would slow that down is actively hurting your chances at wining.
That needs to change if we want the game to improve in this aspect.
Not sure what other strategy you're suggesting that is as strong as getting an entire player out the game.
Those players not wanting to improve is a problem with them and there's nothing you can really do to change that within the game.
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@Mane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446835#Comment_3446835
That's fair, though if you only consider a 3K as a win you're setting yourself up to be disappointed from time to time that goes both ways.
I'd actually prefer if killer wins could be based off hooks not kills, I also agree that gen's should be balanced around that if only that could be the case.
Except gen's already take 90 seconds, gen rushing is only a problem (for some) cuz there's nothing else survivors have to do to escape, since that's the main goal for survivors, if there were other things survivors had to do in order to be allowed to escape Killers would have more time.
Adjusting speed to make things like gen's, healing and movement would only stall out the game in a way some people don't want.
This being said this doesn't mean any of it is going to stop tunneling, that's why I lean heavily on it being considered abuse it should be reportable, or less rewarding. (In my opinion)
Well you can't have your cake and eat it too. Survivors need to understand that they are wanting the game to take longer so their objective will take longer. 90 seconds isn't enough time with how many hooks a killer would currently need.
If you don't want to slow down survivors you need to speed up killers.
So the number of hooks survivors have available would need to go down or the amount of gen time they have to do would need to go up.
You can also introduce more objectives for the survivor.
You need to do something to equal an entire survivor being left alive instead of taken out early.
With that we can also address tunneling in some way. Both should happen at the same time, making non tunneling more viable and adding in an anti-tunnel system.
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@Mane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446810#Comment_3446810
Do you always agree with everything the devs say or do about this game? Personally there are updates I don't agree with (but of course it's not the end of the world) which is why I play killer now not survivor.
In my opinion each individual player makes up what is considered a win if that's a 1K, 2K, 3K or 4K for you that's fine you don't have to agree with what the developers say.
I agree the system is weird.
Map reworks are a completely different discussion, but I will agree there are some maps that I don't like when I play killer. (But still a different can of worms)
Survivors speed shouldn't have to slow down because you're spending too much time in one chase, that being said this discussion isn't about speed it's about tunneling.
Again I never said I have a problem with Killers getting kills it's how they're getting them, of course the devs are going to approve tunneling it's a optional play style you don't have to play that way you want to, when most killers tunnel at the start of the game and so on that should be considered abusing a playstyle.
Its not about whether I agree or not, its the devs game and they decide what's the win condition.
Having it changed, sure, but that's not the discussion that was taking place. I think the game would be better with a different win condition like hooks, but that means gen speeds need to be balanced around whatever hook count gets decided as a "win".
Sorry, I wasn't saying survivor speeds should go down because a chase is taking too long. They should go down if we want tunneling to cease, so that its reasonable for the killer to win. I don't think its reasonable to only be able to win because the survivors greatly messed up or you outclass them so much that it doesn't matter that they were playing tryhard by focusing gens and you weren't.
It is about tunneling. As is, killer speeds and survivor speeds are only kept somewhat in check because of focusing on both sides. If you take only one side out, the balance gets skewed heavily. So, in order to facilitate the speed at which killers complete their objective without tunneling, gen speeds would also need to go down.
Whether by community sentiment or an actual systematic change.
There are killers who don't tunnel, I don't see why survivors can't do the same with their objective and slow it down to facilitate those players more.
Again, if its abuse to focus your objective than that needs to be true for both sides. Its not a problem with survivors doing gens and escaping, its how they do it.
I don't care which as long as its consistent for both sides.
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@Archael said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3444483#Comment_3444483
Actually no, this would incetive tunneling even more since hooking the weakest link constantly would eliminate all tickets from better loopers so they would have only one chance. And tunneling would deplete those tickets much faster than trying to spread hooks with better loopers.
Implement the ticket system along with an anti tunnel system.
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@Mane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446802#Comment_3446802
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446800#Comment_3446800
Gotcha I was confused so in that case run Starstruck, or agitation or iron grasp I believe it's what it's called?
3k every game? and why 3k?
When I did play Survivor I didn't need to get a 3 out to consider that a win, I mean sure be nice if I could get my randoms out and all.
Well ok you can see it that way, that Survivor gets god tier at looping why do killers get to complain about gen rushing if they're focusing down one Survivor who happens to be good at looping? What is the rest of the team / randoms supposed to do while you're focusing down one survivor?
Stand around and wait their turn? No they're going to do gen's because they want to open the exit gates and get an as many survivors out.
I don't have a problem with the Killers objective to get kills I have a problem with them abusing a certain play style by using it every single match at the start of the game.
It's 3K and 3E (escapes) because that's what the devs defined as a win when they introduced MMR as stated in their dev stream at the time and as datamined from the game itself.
For the killer to win they need 3 kills. It doesn't matter how or how many hooks, all the game cares about is "did they die or not?". For survivor its a little different. The team as a whole wins with 3 escapes, however the individual survivor only wins if they escape.
Hatch counts as neutral, its neither a kill or an escape and just voids out the survivor from consideration essentially.
The system could be better, but that's the current one.
Killers shouldn't complain about survivors playing efficiently if they are also playing efficiently.
Not tunneling and not focusing one gen does not mean waiting until the other side catches up. It's just doing thing in a way that allows for the other side to be on equal playing ground if they are also not focusing down their objective.
So in your example, the other survivors should theoretically be spreading out their gen progress doing totems and w.e. but the killer can still lose if they get outplayed.
It's the same way that sometimes a killer can win by spreading hooks if the survivor team does poorly enough or if the killer just really outclasses them.
If anything the survivors slowing down should help with the looping complaints as killers would have more time to actually deal with how strong maps are for survivors.
If you're going to say its fine because survivors want "as many out" as possible, then you need to be ok with killers doing the same to get as many kills as possible. Otherwise it's hypocrisy.
Its the same as survivors spawning in and completing a gen right away and focusing gens all game.
In the current system its not abuse, its been okayed by the devs as something non-reportable. If it was abuse, it would be reportable.
If you personally don't like it then that's understandable, but that's not the same as it being abuse and that it shouldn't be allowed.
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@Mane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446786#Comment_3446786
Tunneling is an optional play style Killers don't need to they want to.
Survivors need to do gen's if they don't then they're just running around until 3 Survivors die and one might get the hatch.
Same on the survivor side with gens. Its optional if they focus down gens or not.
They can do totems, chest, or help their teammates by healing or taking hits. They can do gens partially then find a fresh one. They don't need to just run around doing nothing.
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@Mane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446769#Comment_3446769
I thought the devs did a patch where survivors couldn't directly block the hook?
12 hooks total, three hooks per Survivor, Killers Don't Need all 12 hooks unless they are a tryhard who needs a 4Ks every game.
(Just like tryhard survivors need an escape every single game but that's beside the point)
Tunneling a player at the start of a game is disabling them from actually playing the game why would anyone want to play Survivor at that point when killer is clearly the best role considering they get to be in the match for its entirety where survivors are only in it until they are eliminated or escape.
And I'm not defending double standards tunneling is not an objective doing gen's is.
Not blocking the hook, "body blocking" as in getting in the killers way in an attempt to make them hit you to give your teammate time. Like body blocking with BT, you're taking the hit for your teammate.
Sure that's why I said max. Under a non-tunneling system, a killer would not have "won" until around 10 hooks, since that's a 3k and a 3k is a win. That's just 2 off from 12.
Tunneling a survivor is not disabling them from playing the game, they're still playing. They're doing chases, they're looping, they're dropping pallets ect. They are playing the game.
Killers whole point is to get survivors out the game. If that's not what you want you shouldn't be playing DBD.
Yeah you are defending double standards.
Tunneling is not an objective, neither is focusing gens. You don't need to focus 1 survivor to eventually get 1 kill the same way you don't need to focus 1 gen to eventually get 1 done.
Gens are the objective, not focusing gens.
Kills are the objective, not focusing (tunneling) kills.
Saying survivors can focus gens but killers can't focus their objective is a double standard. So to reword your phrase to not defend double standards:
Focusing down kills is not the objective, neither is focusing gens.
Gens are the objective, and so are kills.
Killers shouldn't focus down kills, and survivors shouldn't focus down gens.
or
Survivors can focus down gens, so killers can focus down kills.
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@Nazzzak said:
I mean, they do kind of get punished. Even one of the devs said that successful tunnelling can increase your MMR above your comfort zone, to the point where you get much harder opponents and will struggle. When I see a player who both tunnels and complains that they're going against Seal Team 6 every game, I feel like they've kind of punished themselves.
I don't think getting put into your appropriate skill bracket is a "punishment". You might not be in your comfort zone but that's the point, your games should be more balanced not comfortable and easy.
If the MMR is working well at least (which its not).
However yeah if you're going to play the most efficient way then you shouldn't be complaining about the other team doing the same. Similarly if survivors are going to focus down gens they shouldn't be complaining about killers focusing down kills.
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@Mane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446213#Comment_3446213
Considering gens take 90 seconds each, not being able to complete them from 0% to 100% would be a ridiculous mechanic, Killers have plenty of gen regression perks they could use to give them more time (like Hex Ruin for one). Also it's a part of the killers job to scare survivors off the gens.
After you hook for Survivor that Survivor is marked with a hook for the whole rest of the game you hook them again they have a second hook and third hook they're out of the game, sure a Survivor can get a gen to 50% and then leave after being scared off or whatever but the killer can kick the generator or use a different gen regressing perk to lower the progress of that gen no matter the progress is, therefore the two objectives are not comparable.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3446166#Comment_3446166
Once a gen is done the killer has a mark that can't be undone.
time on a gen = time in chase. The time this take can be extended by either side.
Survivors have plenty of second chance and chase extending perks they can use just like killer regression. Base kit killers have kicks and survivors have looping, pallets, windows, and can heal if they escape chase. Plus survivors can also prevent a hook via body blocking, going to a hook dead zone, as well as perks like Sabo, Boil Over, and ect.
Getting a hook = completing a gen. This can't be undone by either side.
The survivors also only have to get 5 + gates as opposed to the killers max of 12.
If not being able to go 0% to 100% would be ridiculous, than killers should be allowed to tunnel and get their kill complete.
You're still defending double standards, thus preventing actual solutions from being discussed.
The two objectives are perfectly comparable if you actually understand how they relate to each other.
Also a gen is only 90 secs if you don't hit any great skill checks or have anything to speed it up. Most players can hit at least a few greats per gen, even if not intentionally.
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@Archael said:
Those threads, and its comments especially, are more and more irritating, tho silly at the same time.
First of all... why one can think that removing tunneling from the game = killer loosing matches?
Second, why counterargument for such threads is always "what about genrush"? I mean... its related, for sure, but its not the topic. Im for both - nerf genrush and remove tunneling, bith tactics are bad for game health, but if topic is about genrush, then one should not bring tunneling and vice versa.
And third - If one is talking about rewarding killers for not tunneling, it basically nullifies argument, that without tunneling killer cannot win, the sentence litterally says "reward" so some kind of help of doing killer objective - and this should be the main discussion in such threads: what reward, what in exchange, or, on the other hand, why it should not be a thing.
Otherwise we are going totally offtop.
For the second one its because the two are linked by being either sides main objective. Because the game is asymmetrical, you can't just ignore the other sides version of something all the time and isolate topics like in other games. Some topics are linked to something on the other side that needs to be taken into account. In other games if you change something its changed for everybody, not just one side.
Responses to removing tunneling are basically "ok but you also need to address gen speeds then" and the response to that is usually "No I still want to be able to do my objective efficiently, only you should get slowed down" which of course is not going to go well after that point because you're having double standards put up.
The majority of killers would be fine with tunneling vanishing as long as they either get an equally strong alternative in its place or survivors also get equally slowed down with them. But as we can see here, a lot of survivors do not agree with that. Call it survivor entitlement or w.e., but that mindset needs to change.
If they want this from killers they need to be willing to give an equivalent in return.
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@Mane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3445904#Comment_3445904
Tunneling it's just one option of contributing to The Killers objective as in they have other options like after hooking a Survivor they can go after someone else instead of going after the one who just got unhooked.
I can't remember if it was this thread or a different one but I did say that I would be on the Killer's side about this if they weren't abusing the tunneling option every single game.
Tunneling it's just one option of contributing to the survivors objective as in they have other options like after working on a gen for a bit they can go after another gen instead of going after the one that just got worked on.
Both sides either can or can't do their objective optimally, not just one side. Otherwise you're upholding double standards.
If killers are "abusing" focusing kills to 100% so are survivors with focusing gens to 100%.
Killers main objective is to get kills, so if you want them to stop their kills partway survivors need to do the same with their objective.
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@RaSavage42 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3444958#Comment_3444958
So you agree on the map part... or the whole thing
Either way thanks (it does help my confidence)
The whole thing.
I was just adding on that the "their working on maps" is technically true, but they're making the situation overall worse not better unfortunately.
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@RaSavage42 said:
Tunneling achieves 2 things
1) gets a Survivors out of the match... leaving the 3 remaining Survivors to finish the match
2) slows down the Gens progression
Cause this leads to the viscous cycle known as DBD
1) Tunneling leads Survivors to complete the Gens as fast as they can... cause they don't want to be the ones caught
2) Survivors whom have more focus on Gens leads to Killers Tunneling Survivors out... cause they don't want to have 5 minute matches
The base mechanics of the game are in need to a dire change... Base Gen regression, base hook timers, base bleed out timers, base Gen progression, Maps (but they are working on that)
100% agree.
Most maps are honestly getting worse more than better when they update them and new maps have all been bad for a while now. Idk whose on that the map balance team but they don't understand what makes a good or bad map.
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@Göch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3437741#Comment_3437741
You can meet the win condition as killer without tunneling, but you cant as a surv without completing gens. That's just a very bad take.
This is a false equivalence.
You're comparing focusing a kill to completing a gen.
Focusing a kill = focusing a gen, both sides can win by not doing this. Although not reasonably unless both sides do it, not just killers.
Completing a kill = completing a gen, neither side can win unless they do this.
You can meet the win condition as killer without focusing kills, and you can as survivor without focusing gens.
You can't win as killer without completing kills, you can't win as survivor without completing gens.
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@Xord said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3444774#Comment_3444774
I'm just going to assume you're trolling with this entire response and move on.
I mean that leaves my entire response unopposed as you offered no counter so fine by me. 👍️
Hold the L.
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@Xord said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442131#Comment_3442131
Hahahahahahahahahaha.
Gens aren't people. And doing gens is the objective. Tunneling isn't. That's why we advocate for either hooks being the sole objective, or anti tunnel mechanics. It's litterally IMPOSSIBLE for a killer not to get a 4k while tunneling. It's just not possible. Tunneling isn't doing the objective, it's taking the game hostage for 4 players by refusing to play it fairly.
Gens not being people does not matter in the context of the conversation. It just "feels bad", which is a separate discussion.
Kills are the current objective.
Tunneling is trying to kill the survivor, 100% doing the objective.
It's not an exploit and it's not a cheat. Its 100% fair.
The devs have said tunneling is perfectly within the games bounds and not something you can report someone for doing in their game rules.
Source: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/139-game-rules
As for changing the main objective to hooks, I agree, but that's not what it currently is and what the game currently is is what was being talked about.
The game would be better, the devs should do it and rebalance killers to make it more viable. However at the time of posting this they have not nor announced any plans to.
Also holding the game hostage means you make it so the game won't end for one or multiple people, literally the opposite of what tunneling tries to do which is end the game ASAP. Going for hooks actually takes a lot longer so it would be closer on the spectrum to making a game last too long.
"It's litterally IMPOSSIBLE for a killer not to get a 4k while tunneling. It's just not possible"
I'm just going to assume you're trolling with this point and move on.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3443615#Comment_3443615
If mmr would be based on hooks that would punish killers going for hooks instead kills so that would be no good. Ofcourse 11 hooks and 3K is much more skillful than 4K with 4 hooks but it's best to put sweatiest teams agains't sweatiest killers. One flaw they need to fix is to increase softcap so 2000 mmr killer won't face 1200 mmr survivors.
Getting put into your appropriate skill bracket isn't punishing the player.
MMR defines the win condition, that was the main point of making it besides attempting to improve how players were sorted.
Sweat just means trying hard to win. So yeah going for hooks is less sweaty because you're prioritizing that over that actual win condition of getting kills, so you're not trying as hard to win as someone who doesn't.
Your MMR is lower than your actual skill in that case because you're purposefully handicapping yourself for your own personal goal of hook count, but that's not the goal of the game itself.
"One flaw they need to fix is to increase softcap so 2000 mmr killer won't face 1200 mmr survivors."
Yes I agree on this. One of the problems is that the softcap is so low more than half the player base is above it.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442657#Comment_3442657
Totems and chest are not objectives more of an side quest. So survivors only has one and only one way to do gens. Ofcourse we could count healing as objective. Maybe before if killer had hex ruin or devour hope as those could slow down doing gens sugnificantly. Like I said usually soloQ does them lot slower yes 1 out of 10 games you might get good team who do them fast. But most of the time when gens go quickly in soloQ is because killer made mistakes.
Killer primaly objective is to hook survivors that what the game literally says not just killing that's why survivors don't die when they get first hooked. Devs intended killers to go for hooks and survivors to heal and probably do some totems. But players ofcourse on both sides find more effient ways to play and take the fun out of the game.
Yeah that's why I said optional objectives. Killers don't have anything similar to be doing instead of trying to kill the survivors. The defense "survivors don't have anything else to do" is false. If you mean they don't have any other main objective then sure. But they can choose to do so to slow down the same way they want killers to choose to slow down their main and only objective.
Killers primary objective are not hooks.
If it were hooks MMR would be based on hooks, but no, devs made MMR based on kills.
If it were hooks mori's wouldn't exist as a benefit as they skip hook stages to kill the survivor.
Kills are the objective.
Hooks are just the first and most common way to get kills.
For survivor it's the same, the primary objective is to survive and escape through the exit gates, gens are just the only way to do that. Otherwise MMR would be based on gens.
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@Archael said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442507#Comment_3442507
My main point is that tunneling have to be resolved for the sake of the game, since players experience is what makes game being played. Gen rush on the other hand is more about game balance.
yes, those two have to be resolved at the same time since sometimes tunneling is only way for the killer to win, and everyone wants to win, so removing tunneling needs some other things to be done so that tunneling is not only not available but also not needed.
YET. If thread is about tunneling ONLY then we should focus on tunneling. Arguments about "if", "why" and "how" should it be resolved, without throwing arguments about genrush unless its the argument with "how". Only saying - no, tunneling must exist because genrush exist is not only silly, but also nonproductive, and presuppouse that because OP did not mention genrush means that genrush is OK in the thread is just as bad.
I agree to your main point mostly, but gen focusing is also about the game experience as it make the game miserable for the killer and is a large part of what makes killer feel stressful to so many.
I'm not assuming that on OP I'm saying that to you since your comment brought up gens "The difference is survivors doing gens...".
If you don't want to talk about gens in the tunneling thread... then why did you bring up gens?
But if you're withdrawing that point then on everything that's left yeah I think we're on the same side at least somewhat. To me it appears that wires may have been crossed at some point.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442143#Comment_3442143
Survivors don't have another objective than gens to do so just doing gens can't be called gen rush. Killer has multiple ways to do objective camping/tunneling/slugging even 3 genning and spreading hooks and that can be placed in many categories some spread hooks until it's neccessary to tunnel some want 2 hook everyone some are very tactical about it and spread hooks between 2 players to get 2 kills quickly.
Survivors only has that one thing they can do. So that's why I call gen rush only if survivors bring tools to make them faster if it's not swf. Like I said gens are done bit too quickly so I would like to see them increased to 100s at least if it's swf. SoloQ can rarely make gens anywhere close to effiently and they suffer the most about tunneling.
Without perks or toolboxes I would call gen rush when survivors do only gens and don't save their teammate until last second and this is mostly done by swf. Well soloQ leaves that teammate definetely to get second hook. But killee can usually punish this kind of behaviour. Unfortunately survivors can't punish killer from tunneling unless it's swf again.
That's not true survivors have totems and chest as optional objective. Killers actually only have 1 thing to do, kill the survivors. There's nothing else they can really do.
Everything you mentioned is just doing the objective in slightly different ways, its not different optional objectives.
You have it flipped.
There's nothing stopping solo's from doing gens quickly. They have a lot of other problems, doing gens is not one of them lol. They can spawn spread out and gens are easy to find. You don't need communication for gens, just people who actually do them.
That's more of because solos can't filter out potatoes like a swf can. But if you get a team with a brain gens still fly. You can't really do anything about bad teammates however. Signing up solo is rolling the dice on teammate quality like in any team game.
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@jeffkillsyou96 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442494#Comment_3442494
Ok so let me clarify somethings the switch should take 45-60 secs in the basement and the killer should get a notification of the switch being activated and it won’t fully power exit gates so it shouldn’t ruin endgame builds
That doesn't really change the situation, survivors can still split the map and do both at once.
For the 2 man stand, that's on the survivors for refusing to participate in gameplay, so I'd rather help the killer find one and start a chase instead of rewarding the survivors with another failsafe mechanic on top of hatch, which already only exist because the last survivor would hold the game hostage by hiding forever.
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@Archael said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442211#Comment_3442211
Yes, and this is what are those threads about
Yes that's how the thread started, but the thread as a whole also turned into people defending that it's not fine to tunnel but fine to rush gens. It seemed like you were supporting that idea with "The difference is that with doing gens, survs are doing ho harm". Which is why I talked against that point.
If that's not what you meant then I apologize.
If we address tunneling we also need to address the base gen speeds vs killer efficiency problem that gets skewed in the survivors favor even more than it already is if tunneling is removed.
Tunneling = focusing gens, so we need to address both at the same time.
I'm fine with anti-tunnel as long as killers also get anti-gen focus or they get sped up enough in chase/mobility to keep up with the gen speeds.
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@jeffkillsyou96 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442464#Comment_3442464
I’m not entitled to anything lmao I just think that there should be an alternative to the gens in case of faulty map rng and to do something about the 2 man stand problems
I understand, but this solution isn't going to work it'll just get abused by survivors, which is usually the problem with proposed solutions.
It needs to be fair for both sides, as both sides can 3 gen, not just killers. It's just not advantages to survivors atm, (they still do it to themselves a lot by messing up).
You'd just be flipping the problem to the other side and giving survivors another failsafe for messing up on top of hatch.
I'm not sure what scenario is meant by "2 man stand". So I can't comment on that atm.
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@jeffkillsyou96 said:
Well what if the killer gets a notification of the switch being turned on
ok cool, it's on the other side of the map, the survivors can be in both places, and you can only be at 1. You know about it but you still can't stop them from doing both.
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@jeffkillsyou96 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3442124#Comment_3442124
Well if there’s 4 survivors left and 1 gen then chances are the killer lost anyways unless they have some sort of end game build or something
No the killer hasn't "lost anyway" just because there's 1 gen left. Idk where survivors keep getting the idea they are entitled to an escape and won the game already just because they're at endgame.
The killer hasn't lost till 3 survivors are out the gates.
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@RaidenHusky said:
Honestly, I don't think tunneling has EVER been THIS bad before. It's THE strat like EVERY game anymore.
This is said every patch. Not by specifically you, but in general.
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@Archael said:
The difference is that with doing gens, survs are doing ho harm. While if killer tunnel it basically prevent one player from playing (not to mention that the player payed for the game to be able to play it).
Killers should be able to do their objectives efficiently (killing survivors) but no player should be harmed because of that - killers should be efficient without need for tunneling.
That's on the devs to fix not the players. and the devs should tbf.
As is however, asking the killer to shoot themselves in the foot by purposely playing sub optimally while survivors can do their objective as freely and quickly as they want is asinine.
In order to be fair to the killer player, survivors need to also slow down their objective to compensate. If they don't want to they need to be ok with killers doing the same.
There is harm being done, you're costing the killers their experience/enjoyment as well by holding them do a different unfair standard. It's also not as if killers have fun when gens are flying and 3 can get done in their first chase.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3438440#Comment_3438440
Not bad idea but you can't tunnel gens remember literally the definion of tunneling got nothing to do with gens. The word you're looking is gen rushing. That is problem but not as big as tunneling which happens nesrly every game but both should be solved. Just repairing gens is not gen rushing but using perks, toolboxes and swf to coordinate and make them faster is. But problem also is right now gen repair times are too short they should increase them to 100s and nerf toolboxes and Bnb. On big maps gen could be increased to even 110s.
Double standard, if the killer can do kills "too fast" basekit than so can survivors with gens. They are both either side's objective.
Call it whatever made up word you want, both are just doing the objective efficiently and quickly. Tunneling a gen sounds fine to me because you're focusing that gen over all others the same way tunneling a kill is focusing that kill over all others.
But in the end what made up word we call it is just semantics, the idea is the same. The words don't have concrete definitions either, so both can be valid depending.
In my experience, gen rushing originally meant just focusing on gens, it wasn't until much later that I started seeing people adding 15 flavors of perks and items that need to be present to be considered gen rushing.
But your exposure and experience are valid as well.
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@Xord said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3437741#Comment_3437741
"tunneling gens"
Dude is coimparing a gameplay exploit to doing the objective.
Its not a gameplay exploit it's literally doing the objective lol.
Survivor objective: Gens, so they should 0-100 gens.
Killer objective: Kills, so they should 0-100 kills.
Both are doing the objective efficiently.
Double standards will get us nowhere. Either its fine for both or not fine for both.
Expecting killers to stop a kill partway is the same as expecting survivors to stop a gen partway, both sound silly imo.