MrPenguin
MrPenguin
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I think this would just be easily abused by survivors. They could purposely 3 gen themselves on side opposite the basement and basically put the killer in a lose lose of "guard the switch we get the gens; guard the gens we get the switch".
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@NotAnotherDoctor said:
This post just helped me come to the realisation that survivors complain about slugging but stand at the exit gates for two minutes.
Hypocrisy at its finest, now that I realise it
Yeah there's a lot of survivor hypocrisy unfortunately. The community and game would be in a much better place if it wasn't so prevalent.
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" is this because the majority of players want to taunt other people"
Yes.
" being in a position where there is zero threat to you would also be wasting time as well?"
and here we have the classic and way to widespread survivor double standards. It's fine if they waste the killers time just to taunt, but if the killer waste their time its reprehensible and they are a horrible person.
Honestly if you want to play the game it's best to just accept this is the way most survivor players act, as unfortunate as it is.
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Yeah I agree.
As much as I despise Spirit and find Myers super unfun and boring, I don't give up when I face one as much as I would much much rather just go next.
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Yeah I played 1 game today as Dredge, the first down self sacrificed . After that just farmed with the survivors and let them go.
Wish there was some sort of self sacrafice detection.
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Its just super unhealthily designed.
If its usable its abusable. The counterplay is just to slug endlessly and let them bleedout. It's either miserable for one side, the other, or useless.
It needs a complete redesign imo.
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Survivor toxicity has also really grinded me to a point I don't really want to play the game much anymore. I still play it a little bit but I'm also tired of the unhealthy game environment and double standards thrown around on a near constant basis.
Loading into a match, playing for the 12 hooks, but also knowing if I don't kill everyone, which is way more likely since I'm going for 12 hooks, the survivors will just wait at the gate just to be a toxic turd is really off-putting and just kills motivation to load up another match. Not to mention the toxicity throughout the match just for running by a pallet and dropping it acting they just made the play of the century.
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@Frogsplosion said:
I'd like to be a nice killer but survivors rarely act in a way that tells me they deserve it.
I play "nice" when I play killer and this is still true. Most survivors in the wild are toxic t-bagging little Dredge droppings who love to waste the killers time just to be spiteful but will condemn anyone who waste theirs. Ungrateful when you play "nice" as well but will chew you out if you don't. It's either "gg ez baby killer look how 3 got out I don't care that you went for 9 hooks" or "Wow, you tunneled, wow."
But the few that aren't are cool.
I play nice on both sides, wish others would do the same.
@RareFantom47 said:
First off, let's be honest, many of the 'Nice Killers' aren't nice, they just don't want to be outed as a tunneler.
Secondly, I like to think of the survivor's experience. I wanted to be a survivor mainly, but all of this tunneling, camping, and toxic behavior by the killer really ruined the experience for me. I almost quit the game altogether, but then I started playing Killer, it was much more relaxing and the only way matches were truly toxic to me is if the survivor team was made up entirely of bully survivors.
The way I play is to make the experience fun for the other team because I understand how much it sucks to be camped and tunneled all of the time. So I go out of my way and try to make an experience that I would enjoy as a survivor. I don't intend on being annoying, toxic, or sweaty.
"First off, let's be honest, many of the 'Nice Killers' aren't nice, they just don't want to be outed as a tunneler."
Attitudes like this are what kill off nice killers lol.
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The only thing that messes with me is Nurses Fatigue. I physically get a headache if I play her for an entire match.
It's the only thing in any game that has done this to me and I don't get motion sick IRL.
The camera being slammed to the floor + the drunk sway is really jarring and "queasy feeling" at the same time. If it was like a legion fatigue it'd be no issue.
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Stick is fine as long as there's a good alternative, so I think a carrot is needed in addition to the stick. But that's not what's happening, its just stick.
It doesn't help that the stick seems to only be for killers either. We got basekit BT, basekit Deliverance is on the way, basekit UB might be on the way.
Meanwhile not a word of any basekit help for killers to counter gen rush, survivors running to hook dead zones, ect.
It seems very much give the survivors all the carrots and give the killers all the sticks, not great IMO.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Certain streamers tend to over-react and cause panic that just trickles down in the community. The past few chapters have been met with a lot of negativity hopefully it doesn’t discourage the devs from implementing these fun fresh ideas. The chase aspect is what makes this game so fun, and them adding new ways to have a chase is only gonna make the game more exciting.
Content creators do this every PTB with all the perks unless they are unsalvageable. If they can force the perk value on the PTB against survivors clearly not great at the game or messing around, it's "insane". I don't remember who, but they did the same thing with "THWACK!", saying its going into their builds forever. 2 days later, gone from builds lol.
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Happens on both sides.
People overvalue the perks and the killers power by a lot usually.
Last chapter people were actually saying "THWACK!" was going to be a great perk, and "Leverage" was going to usher in a new age of healing slowdown.
Where are both perks? In the trash.
People were saying Sadako and PH (both) were absolutely busted. Where are they now? Still not strong enough to compete with good teams and never were.
I've just taken the practice of dropping a killer down a tier or 2 compared to where everyone is saying they're at, same with the perks unless they're obviously and easily busted and/or abused.
Tbf, "Hyperfocus" can be/is disgusting, it just needs more work than most players want to put in (thankfully).
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Not having to hold the button would be a nice QoL.
Dredge is already not great so I think that small buff would be fine.
The locker logic for a lot of maps also needs to be improved so they don't bump into situations where 25-40% of the map has absolutely no lockers in it for Dredge to even use their power on.
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Can't really answer the main question without knowing which killer you're playing.
If it's Nurse, Blight, Or Spirit then yeah you just need more practice.
For the rest of the cast it depends on:
A) do they have busted add-ons
B) are you running them every match
If either are untrue than your killers power level might be stopping you from being able to compete with good teams and/or how strong most of the maps are.
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I mean, dark is dark. Vision is just more important for killers, survivors don't have a giant red "I'm here" light lol, and this was the best for "its hard to see for both on the same map".
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What does the timer amount have to do with anything in regards to your own work? It could be 10 minuets and the fact of the matter is you still had to chase and down that person and you have to find the next one. It's not an exploit. The last survivor can hid in a corner or locker jump for 4 minuets and still escape through hatch. What does that have to do with "chilling". How stressful it is is irrelevant.
You might have to explain that point a little more. It's not making sense.
You didn't earn your escape just because you existed in the match until endgame, maybe by hiding in a corner. You still need to survivor until you get out. Those perks make it guaranteed that you get out with nothing the killer can realistically do about it just because you're existing with the perks equipped at endgame.
If all survivors get downed then they lost, its the same as if all got hooked. The killer had to chase and down each individual one, they didn't just exist and the survivors just fall down because of a perk they had. Imagine killer had a perk like that "Once the gates are powered, all survivors enter the dying state", that's the closest equivalent to endgame DS and OTR.
"Why should I get cheated out of deserved win if I played perfectly 95% of the match but misstep (or a teammate makes a mistake) and I end up dying. That's also RNG."
Because you or your team messed up? It's a team based game. Unfortunately, that means sometimes your team will mess you up. Its part of any team game. That's not cheating you out, you messed it up yourself.
That's different from the game giving the killer a cop out like basekit bloodwarden on the last survivor if 3 escape and a switch the survivor and killer have to find that if the killer finds it instantly sacrifices the last survivor. Like the hatch is for survivor.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428859#Comment_3428859
No kill/escape should be guaranteed . Isn't that why DS and Off the Record are de-activated in end game? SO as not to be a guaranteed escape? Why should the killer be able to guarantee 4k by slugging indefinitely one survivor?
Basekit UB should come for the last survivors. Maybe killers won't play as greedy if there's a timer. Get your guaranteed 3k and if you're lucky you get 4k. Don't force it.
Slugging throughout the rest of the game will still be a strategy.
You don't need a guaranteed 4k.
Bring basekit UB for 2 last survivors, there I said it.
There's a difference between getting a guaranteed kill/escape because of a perk just because you hit end game and earning a kill/escape through your own work.
The killer earned that kill by getting down to 1-2 survivor before the gens got done. They just don't wanted to get their kill cheated out by hatch RNG, which iirc the devs stated mainly exist so the last survivor has a reason to keep playing and doesn't just hide indefinitely. It's literally an anti-spite/selfish mechanic that rewards the person they're trying to prevent from being spiteful/selfish by cheating out the person who earned their "point" (kill). Then they get a 2nd chance to cheat out because the gates get powered lol.
Nothing like that exist for killer and you want to add a 3rd for survivor. I say no. I don't even think we should have the 1st.
Remove hatch and make the last 2 situation not a potential kill robbery x2 if you decide to go down to 1and slugging amounts in that situation would drop through the floor.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3430137#Comment_3430137
Its a part of the game I will continue to criticize and give my opinion on how wrong it is to be a part of the game. I don't get to decide anything on this game, but I do get to provide my feedback and talk about parts of the game that I believe should be changed for the better. That is not entitlement. That is a paying customer nearing 3000 hours played who spends money on this game speaking my mind on it. If that bothers you, stop reading my posts and saying the same thing over and over again.
It is entitled to try and dictate how others should play just because you don't like it, that why I said saying they're "not allowed" or "that's not how you win" is different. You're not going to get productive discourse with that mindset/attitude.
Not to mention, those statements are also false. You are allowed and that is a way to win, but you want it changed to be better.
Wanting it changed is fine.
However, basekit getting up from he floor (UB) has been shown to be abusable and not work, so we'd need different solutions.
Just to throw some suggestions out there I'll put the following.
Small and larger things we can do to improve or eliminate slugging, hopefully without breaking game balance like basekit UB did in the test:
- Give killers a buff or reward for hooking survivors that greatly outweighs slugging, the killer now has no reason to slug over hooking. Can be coupled with a system to reward different hooks or a hook/death system rework to also disincentivize tunneling.
- Make hooks not despawn. Why is this even still a thing?
- fix hook RNG so that we no longer have "hook dead zones" where you physically can't hook the survivors.
- If, and only if, you fix hook spawn, remove saboing, and remove hooks breaking, you can debuff the killer for each survivor left on the floor for over 15 seconds with a speed penalty and/or disabling their power to account for killers like Nurse, who don't care about their movement speed.
- Remove hatch, the need to slug the last 2 survivors to avoid losing a kill to RNG is gone. Slugging is way less incentivized than before.
- Remove bleedout timer, survivors can be on the floor indefinitely. Killer needs to hook or mori to win. Remove hook sabo to avoid abuse by survivors. To avoid abuse by the killer to BM, we can also use suggestion #4, and/or once all remaining survivors are down for over 30 seconds they will be sacrificed. Makes slugging for kills way harder since you cant slug someone long enough for them to die unless you get everyone all at once and you might also be debuffed.
There are other solutions to test that are not buffing the survivors with basekit abilities that will break the game balance since they will abuse anything they can as the past has shown multiple times. If you really want to stick to punishing killers, I suppose #4 and/or #6 would be the best bet from what I offered.
You can't just debuff killers alone, as there are different reasons why someone slugs, some of which are out of the killers control.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3430105#Comment_3430105
Killers are supposed to be sacrificing survivors to the entity. Any kill that isn't that should not be rewarded in the same was as a sacrifice both in mmr and points. You are still using the same argument which is basically "well survivor died therefore I win" even if it means a 4 minute bleedout. No, you don't win like that. That is the very kind of player that no survivor player wants to play against. Excessive slugging needs to be disincentivized.
"No you don't win like that"
Who are you to decide how people win? Yes you do win like that, that's part of the game.
People can choose how they play as long as it follows the guidelines set up by the devs and the game.
Bleedouts are perfectly within those bounds.
When you become a dev or make your own game you can decide how people get to play. As of now you don't and neither does any other entitled player.
Wanting it changed and not liking it is fine, saying people aren't allowed to play that way is different and not true.
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@apathyinc said:
The devs NEVER said bleed outs are counted as kills. Never, not even once.
They did say that the killer rating result specifically tallies kills, and it's proven that it does not count bleed outs as kills. This screen uses the game's own ruleset to determine the kills.
If bleed outs were counted as kills a new player could come in and have no idea that they were supposed to hook someone (even though there are picture diagrams showing to do this) and just knock down every one and bleed them out. If they did this every match they would soon be facing the best players in the game without even grasping basic gameplay concepts.
I understand that there is no convincing you and I no longer care to try.
They also never said they don't.
The code for the MMR is what it is.
Is it dumb that it's inconsistent with the endscreen/emblems? Yes.
Does it make sense for it to be a kill since they died? Yes.
Does it make sense for it not to count? No.
Does it make sense that its different between to two systems? No.
Do the devs make sense half of the time? Also no.
Do the devs mess up a lot? Yes.
Does MMR define the win condition? Yes.
You're literally refusing to accept reality of the way the system and game is built to avoid admitting you're wrong and to protect your ego. So if you want to run away please do, its a waste of time to try and explain anything to you as you'd rather believe your right than actually have the answer.
I don't care if it ended up counting or not, but I do care for having the correct information and knowing what the win condition is.
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@apathyinc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3429970#Comment_3429970
Here is why it's hard for me to understand what you are saying:
- I linked a source of the devs saying where kills are tallied
- I showed that bleeding out a survivor decreases from that kill tally
- Anyone can bleed out survivors or bots to confirm this how it works
- I pointed out how bleed outs don't count for adept or challenges
- Gave an example (and I'll provide the details if you want) of someone using bleed outs to abuse MMR
The source that you linked is a wiki that can be edited by anyone, my sources were this site and the game itself. The devs have said over and over they won't give the details of how the MMR is calculated other than it's based off kills and bleed outs aren't being counted as kills by the game.
The devs did reveal the details of MMR though in a dev stream and said it was (paraphrasing here) just kills and escapes and it doesn't care how you killed them. I believe it was actually the stream where we got the infamous "DBD is hokey" meme.
The game was datamined, thats how we know the softcap for MMR is, iirc, 1900 and new players start at 1100. Why we know gains and losses are affected by match duration.
That's how we know that bleedouts count for a kill in MMR.
They just didn't bother to update the killer rank system to include bleedouts and just changed how the emblem system affected the rank. However, that system never included bleedouts and they didn't add it in, maybe they forgot, didn't care enough, or something, but they didn't add it in. However, that has no bearing on the MMR system which is completely separate.
Unless that streamer datamined his own game and showed that his MMR wasn't increasing, then no, his MMR was going up given all other evidence.
The survivor is dead, you killed them, its a kill, the MMR counts it. The endscreen and achievement system does not.
If you want to ignore the very code of the game itself, and the dev stream on MMR, because of a different post about an entirely different system, then you are purposely being delusional.
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@apathyinc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3429886#Comment_3429886
To clean things up, the result you get after a match will now be tied directly to kills.
To clean things up, the result you get after a match will now be tied directly to kills.
To clean things up, the result you get after a match will now be tied directly to kills.
To clean things up, the result you get after a match will now be tied directly to kills.
So what you are saying is that even though game does not recognize a bleed out as being a kill in ANY way, somehow it still is.
A while back there was a TTV who would do nothing but bleed out survivors, match after match. He has been banned on Twitch, these forums, Reddit, Steam and who knows what else. He would go through hundreds of matches without anyone escaping through the gates or hatch, yet somehow he ALWAYS seemed to play against new players. This was happening because the excessive use of bleed outs were keeping his MMR low. Kills are tied directly to MMR, bleed outs aren't considered kills by the game, and they drastically reduce MMR if abused.
Yes, because that's literally how its coded and how the system works.
I don't see why its so hard for you to understand.
His MMR wasn't lowered for bleedouts, matchmaking just sucks.
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@apathyinc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3429842#Comment_3429842
This has nothing to do with the scores, emblems or blood points. This has to do with the words. These words ONLY change based on number of kills and that specific first page of the post match system reflects what happened.
MERCILESS KILLER = 4K
RUTHLESS KILLER = 3K
BRUTAL KILLER = 1K or 2K
THE ENTITY HUNGERS = 0K
If you bleed out a survivor it DEDUCTS from your killer rating. MMR is based on kills, if you kill a survivor your MMR goes up, if you don't kill a survivor your MMR goes down. Bleeding out a survivor is clearly shown IN THE GAME as not being the same as killing them by sacrifice or mori. A killer does not get a kill by bleeding out a survivor, and if it's not a kill it's a loss. Abusing this is how some killers tank their MMR intentionally.
Edited: to throw in the below sauce
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/369
Merciless Killer
Finally, we have a small update to Merciless Killer ratings. These ratings are currently tied to the grades system, where a double pip earns you a Merciless Killer result and the corresponding adept Killer achievement/trophy. Unfortunately, this means that as your grade increases, it becomes harder to earn these achievements. Since the emblem system has transitioned to a monthly ladder, it no longer makes as much sense for match results to be based on them.
To clean things up, the result you get after a match will now be tied directly to kills.
- 0 Kills: The Entity Hungers…
- 1-2 Kills: Brutal Killer
- 3 Kills: Ruthless Killer
- 4 Kills: Merciless Killer
With this change, the requirement for a Merciless Killer rating is much clearer and remains the same regardless of your grade. This will also make Killer adept achievements a similar level of difficulty to their Survivor counterparts.
Sure, but that's only in regard to the endscreen/achievement system, not MMR.
This is literally data pulled form the game itself, its how the game is coded and it lines up with what we knew before.
Bleedouts are kills for MMR. But they don't count for the words on the endscreen which is a completely different system. That change was made for achievements, as it sates in the source you yourself gave, and changed nothing about the MMR system.
There's no debating that, those are the facts, bleedouts are kills for MMR as coded in the game by the devs and hasn't been changed. It's the same as before outside of achievements.
They are 2 separate, unrelated, isolated, uninteracting systems. Everything on the endscreen has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the win condition or the MMR system. Including the "_ killer" part.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3429397#Comment_3429397
I've actually been looking for a source since I posted my comment. I found the wiki as well, but as you said, it's a fan one so I've been trying to find something more official. Found multiple discussions on it with people having a varied idea of what a bleed out constitutes, but again, nothing official. Did find confirmation from a dev regarding hatch escape being null, so from a comparison pov it would make sense (imo) for bleed outs to be the same, especially considering how they're treated post-game, but I'd prefer official confirmation so will keep looking.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9Y9PWS891EY1/screenshot-20230517-105624-chrome.jpg
Just tagging you to let you know that the wiki datamines the game, so its confirmed that bleedout are kills. Since I know you were looking for a source and potentially to save you time if you still were.
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@apathyinc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3429391#Comment_3429391
Here is how it works, this quote comes from patch 6.5.0:
Merciless Killer
- Moving forward, getting 4 Kills will earn the Killer a Merciless Killer rating, rather than the previous requirement of a double pip.
The MMR system is based on kills and escapes and the very first post match tally screen will tell a player if they made kills. If a player kills 4 survivors (by sacrifice or mori) , they will get a Merciless Killer rating. If they kill 3 survivors and bleed out 1, they will get a Ruthless killer. If they bleed out 2 or 3, they will get a Brutal Killer. Bleed out 4 and they get "The Entity Hungers".
This shows that the game doesn't consider bleed outs as actual kills. A killer can't get an adept achievement if they bleed out even 1 survivor or advance a tome achievement for killing X survivors by any means. And if a killer doesn't get kills, their MMR goes down.
If anyone still doubts this, they can load up a game with bots, bleed them out and see for themselves.
See this is exactly what I thought was happening. Listen, the scores at the end of the game screen are absolutely 100% irrelevant to your MMR. It's a completely different system. You're getting them confused.
Your grade/rank is not your MMR.
As said above, the wiki datamines the information from the game itself, and as far as the devs have stated in their dev streams and post across time, the only things that don't count are DC's and escapes, with hatch being neutral.
So its confirmed that bleedouts are indeed kills and we can put this to rest.
"Whether a Survivor died because of being sacrificed, being killed by the Killer's own hand, or being bled-out, or even how many times they were hooked, is of no concern to the MMR system, they will all count as kills."
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@Alionis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3429405#Comment_3429405
"Not an amazing source".
The fandom wiki literally datamines all of their stuff. There objectively isn't a better source than the game's own code.
Oh I didn't know that, thank you.
So bleedouts are kills confirmed.
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@Raptorrotas said:
How about just ending the game if all survivors are incapacitated? Add a "can get up"-chck or whatever. Or make it a vote.
Give killer full sacrifice score or not.
Pretty much what I've been advocating for. They don't want that, they specifically want the killer to be punished for slugging.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3429442#Comment_3429442
A shorter bleedout and those deaths counting as kills for the killer would incentivize the entire killer playerbase to do nothing but knock down and slug every team they go against. I'm advocating for fairness and balance. There is nothing fair or balanced about leaving the entire survivor team on the ground for a full bleedout. Survivors have one way they can escape as a team and that is powering the exit gate by doing 5 generators. Killers have 3 ways to eliminate us: hooks, mori and slugging. Survivors can't just stand around after the exit gate is powered and wait for it to open itself. Slugging should be in every way detrimental to the killer if done for a prolonged period of time the same way it would be detrimental to survivors standing around and not trying to open the exit gate. A bleedout should not count as a kill and from what I understand you don't gain near as much as you would through a hook elimination so you're arguing simply from the perspective of survivor elimination rather than through genuine progress. It really does sound like you look at it as "survivor died therefore I win" but really you didn't win. You actually lost and all those bleedouts aren't making you go up in MMR like you would with hook eliminations.
Actually as far as we have seen a bleedout does count as a kill and makes your MMR go up. Those saying otherwise are currently trying to find a source. Imo it seems like that's a bit of misinformation floating around due to confusion with the emblem, and a source doesn't exist because it's not true.
Last I heard any kill counts towards MMR going up, including bleedout. However your emblem score will not count a bleedout, but that's separate. MMR only cares if you killed the survivor, since that's the win con.
I don't see what a conditional shorter bleedout would change in the event everyone is on the floor. It just saves time, but if you'd rather wait for 4 minuets instead of 30 seconds then sure advocate against it.
It wouldn't incentivize it anymore than it does currently as you'd still need to get everyone on the ground.
You still chase, you still down, you just opt for a bleedout over a hook. In either case the killer can still defend the area, and another survivor still has to come save.
It takes much longer than a hook sacrifice (almost double iirc), Killers don't see the aura unlike a hook (basekit), all healing buffs speed up the process of picking someone up, you might have to do it a lot more than 3 times per survivor, and the survivor can move.
It has trade offs, its fair and balanced just fine. It's just unpleasant because it takes too long after the point the game is lost in most cases.
If it was unfairly strong almost everyone would be doing it just like they do with all the unfairly strong things (Old DH, Old MoM, Iri hatchets, release reworked Freddy, Old DS, CoB pain res 3 gen, Ect.).
Survivors don't only have the gates, they have the hatch. But regardless its an asymm game, they wont have the same amount of options on both sides by design.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3429397#Comment_3429397
I've actually been looking for a source since I posted my comment. I found the wiki as well, but as you said, it's a fan one so I've been trying to find something more official. Found multiple discussions on it with people having a varied idea of what a bleed out constitutes, but again, nothing official. Did find confirmation from a dev regarding hatch escape being null, so from a comparison pov it would make sense (imo) for bleed outs to be the same, especially considering how they're treated post-game, but I'd prefer official confirmation so will keep looking.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9Y9PWS891EY1/screenshot-20230517-105624-chrome.jpg
Yeah I saw that post when they posted it as well. I personally don't see the connection between hatch and bleeding out. One is luck based so it doesn't count, the other is (usually) intentionally used to kill the survivor(s).
Imo, bleeding out is closer to a pig trap or Sadako condemn, just an alternate kill condition.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3429412#Comment_3429412
You're advocating for a risk free "win" at the expense of making the game miserable for others. If a 4% unhook chance worries you that much then I don't know what to tell you. The subject of slugging should not be designed around that perspective. If you leave an entire team of survivors on the ground you deserve to be punished for it. You're going to an extreme to mitigate the rarest plays that happen in the game. You don't see what is irrational about that because you went into this thread with an extremely biased perspective on the whole situation. Excessive slugging is toxic. It has no place in this game.
What biased perspective?
My perspective is it is a valid win condition so its allowed, that's all. That's factually true, my bias is removed lol.
I actually don't like it as is, hence why I avoid doing it myself. But I can remove myself from the objective.
I'm advocating to get rid of the wait time. If you don't have to wait so long I don't see why its a problem anymore.
At that point what is there to be "miserable" about? That they didn't hook you? So what?
Your advocating to punish the killer just for trying to win in a way you don't like. Slugging isn't toxic inherently. You can use it to be toxic, but its not toxic in itself.
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I don't see what's irrational about that. They have 3 chances to 4% and it's for each survivor.
What is the reason for the killer to hook everyone? Its literally an unnecessary risk just because the survivors won't like waiting.
If anything its more irrational to suggest the killer hook them. All it does it put them at risk. The only reason to is emotion based, not logic based.
I'm not "missing the point" your point just isn't true, hooks are not the objective, kills are. Hooks are just the most common and accessible way to get kills.
Also it seems your other main argument is "survivors don't like it" which yeah sure, but that sucks for them. Survivors also don't like just dying in general.
Lets say one survivor 4%, then the other(s) die, hatch spawn and they escape.
I've had that happen to me multiple times. In that situation I get punished for hooking when I could have easily just left them on the floor. I don't because I don't want to wait that long but that's my choice.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3429391#Comment_3429391
Bleed outs are the same as hatch escapes - they're neutral and don't affect MMR. MMR also isnt simply increased by kills, it also depends on the MMR of your opponent. If you kill a survivor with a lower MMR than you, then it doesn't increase your MMR because the game expected the better player to win. There's a bit more to it than simply dead survivor = more MMR, or escape killer = more MMR.
@apathyinc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3429226#Comment_3429226
Bleeding out 4 survivors lowers your MMR. Bleeding out 4 survivors doesn't give you any score points either. Bleeding out a survivor is a loss in both emblem and MMR land.
This is the best I could find and it contradicts what you're saying
"the Skill-Based Matchmaking Rating only considers the death of Survivors (or their failure to escape) when calculating its final MMR score, and does not care how that death occurred.
Whether a Survivor died because of being sacrificed, being killed by the Killer's own hand, or being bled-out, or even how many times they were hooked, is of no concern to the MMR system, they will all count as kills.
This is contrary to the Emblem system (used to determine a Player's Grade), as that system only considers deaths from being sacrificed or being killed by the Killer's hand as actual kills, and also factors in how many times they were hooked."
That's from the fandom wiki, so not an amazing source but again, best I could find.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3429391#Comment_3429391
Bleed outs are the same as hatch escapes - they're neutral and don't affect MMR. MMR also isnt simply increased by kills, it also depends on the MMR of your opponent. If you kill a survivor with a lower MMR than you, then it doesn't increase your MMR because the game expected the better player to win. There's a bit more to it than simply dead survivor = more MMR, or escape killer = more MMR.
ok that's nice if its true, but I asked for a source not the same info I already got that might not even be true.
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@apathyinc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3429226#Comment_3429226
Bleeding out 4 survivors lowers your MMR. Bleeding out 4 survivors doesn't give you any score points either. Bleeding out a survivor is a loss in both emblem and MMR land.
Can you give me a source? Afaik the only thing that doesn't count as a kill is an escape (obviously) and a DC.
All the info I can find just says as long as they die your MMR goes up, it doesn't matter how.
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@apathyinc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3429165#Comment_3429165
The problem here is with the bleeding out though, not slugging. Kills are the win condition, but the game doesn't consider bleed outs as kills and deducts them from the kill score post game. Bleed out one and you can't get a Merciless Killer, 4 bleed outs give a "Entity Hungers". The OP is just wanting to participate in normal gameplay.
The score and the win condition are different, hence why MMR and the emblems are separated. You can even kill the survivors too quickly to get a good score. You still won the game in the eyes of the MMR system the same as if you had a 12 hook game.
Bleeding them out is still a kill and still counts towards the win con and the MMR considering it a win afaik.
Hook rescues and picking someone up from the floor are pretty much the same thing. The only real currently relevant difference is needing to wait after everyone alive is on the floor, which Is why I suggested a small timer to allow for perks like UB, then having them all be taken if no one gets up.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428859#Comment_3428859
They win if they choose to hook everyone when hooks are nearby. They already "won" in that context but since they are refusing to follow through with the hooks then survivors should have a way out of that situation. That is what I mean by they already won at that point. Survivors need something different than a perk as a basekit ability to deal with this. We need a situation reset. Maybe something similar to what no mither allows you to do but it only works when either everyone is down or you've been on the ground for a certain amount of time. Survivors being able to recover naturally should be a basekit thing for them at this point in the game but as I said, make it conditional.
Not necessarily, there's still the chance to unhook yourself on first stage or wiggle off. The safest and most logical option most of the time is for the killer to just let them bleed out and not risk the 4% or a wiggle off or a perk like power struggle. Securing the win.
If past 1st stage, then you'll all get sacrificed anyway.
There should be no reason to not just let them get sacrificed on the spot like I suggested, it just saves everyone time.
The survivors don't need "a way out" they already lost. So just skip the wait and go to the loss.
Slugging for kills is still getting kills, which at the end of the day is the win condition for the killer. Not hooks. But it not taking up to 4 minuets once there's no chance of the survivors winning would be nice.
Blood points don't matter.
Also you're basically asking for some form of basekit unbreakable. No mither is essentially just unlimited unbreakable with broken. So idk why you're trying to say you're not asking for it when you are, even if conditional.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428821#Comment_3428821
I never suggested basekit unbreakable. In fact I don't think that perk or a basekit ability would even be effective in dealing with this situation. Also I would rather the killer be punished for ignoring hooking an entire downed team rather than be rewarded for it.
I thought that's what you meant by "basekit abilities", if not my mistake.
As for not "rewarding" the killer, as you said the killer already won. You'd be potentially ripping away a victory or kill from the killer by trying to punish them just because they slugged the last 2 survivors. Slugging is a valid potential route to take to secure a kill or close out a match. Even as a main strategy, slugging is valid. It gets you kills which is the win con.
I'm just suggesting to expedite the process. If you want slugging gone from the game entirely that's different than the impression I got.
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While yes this is true and I agree.
Camping and tunneling are also the fastest way for the killer to win the game. So yes survivors should stop with the childish BM, they also need to understand that killers are slowing their gameplay down considerably by playing "nice" and should also do the same.
That way, the killer still gets a fair chance to win and isn't being punished by being nice by the same people they're being nice to.
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Killers camp and tunnel, survivors slam gens.
Both sides rush their objective. Both issues need addressing, preferable by the devs.
The community can technically address the issue by killers following the survivor rulebook and survivors following the killer rulebook.
But I don't see the survivor community agreeing to that ever.
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Basekit UB isn't the way to go, just have the entity take them if all the remaining survivors are downed for 30 seconds or w.e.
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The problem I experience a lot is that people say "nerf tunneling" without also agreeing to then buff killers in other ways to make up for it.
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Map design and only 3 viable base kit killers is kinda making the game a chore for me.
Playing survivor gets boring after a while. But I'm tired of loading into most of the maps in the game and thinking "ugh" on the killer side.
So it's just a choice between survivor ease and the resulting boredom, or killer frustration unless I want to only play top tier killers/add-ons every game.
Improving the map design would help a lot in that aspect. But given the recent track record, it's actually gotten worse.
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Both sides can bring strong things, but the majority of maps are survivor sided. Also there are killers who don't even have a strong add-on they can bring even if they wanted too or don't synergize as well with meta perks.
So, overall, the game is survivor sided imo. Not every killer player plays Nurse Blight Spirit, but every survivor player has the same power potential, which is very high.
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I mean every killer is playable unless they're bugged.
If you mean viable, like 90% of the killer roster, not unless you have survivors way under your skill level.
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Playing killers who can actually compete with a solid team.
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Not healthy for the game. Needs to be reworked.
The "will they/won't they" game on both ends is just not fun (for most), and it happens every single time someone is injured unless you saw them use something else.
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I believe Nurse is only allowed as is because ~95% of the killer roster can't keep up with 4 good survivors running meta. If we're counting Nurse and Blight as the 2 killers who can which seems to be the general consensus.
So while I personally don't like her, she is a necessary evil so to speak in the current state of the game. A nurse nerf would have to be met with either a general killer buff (again), Targeted killer buffs, or a general survivor nerf.
Either would probably be better for the overall health of the game.
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Oni for the actual killer. Knight for perks, particularly nowhere to hide. So it depends on what you want.
Decent killer with bad perks, or bad killer with decent perks.
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They need spawn logic and/or potentially more than 4 a match.
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I don't think its "many killers here" when at the time of posting this it's 2% lol. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with a select few.
Here's hoping solo at least gets action icons soon.