MrPenguin
MrPenguin
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635239#Comment_3635239
Yes, it does put them past their skill level. If they've been in a 4-man running gen perks, they WILL hit a wall where their poor micro and macro catches up.
Same with Killer. An over-reliance on tunneling often causes Killers to develop their skills poorly. Bad micro and macro play catch up to them and good teams WILL slaughter you for that. Hence why we get generally average Killers complaining about Survivors being OP while experienced one's are kinda chill.
And thus your bias is revealed via your defensive nature. A gross misrepresentation of Survivor skill as a whole in response to a factually correct statement. Whether you like it or not, tunneling is easy and extremely effective; it's also much harder to counter than it is to perform.
But, that wall is their skill level. Why is it above? Their play got them this far, they're lacking in other areas so this is as far as they go. How are they above that?
Because better players will beat them? Yeah no duh. There's always a better player, so I guess everyone is boosted except for the best killer and 4 survivors in the world.
And thus your bias is revealed. A gross misrepresentation of killer and survivor skill. Whether you like it or not, survivor is much easier to play.
We both can play us vs them. Or whatever you're doing.
Trying to write someone off as a "killer main" will just get you labeled as a "survivor main".
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635331#Comment_3635331
Oh, it isn't?
Even when it can jump your MMR to such an extent that you can't play without it anymore?
You mean if you use the most optimal playstyle, or any playstyle for that matter, and then you stop to use a weaker one you will preform worse. Inconceivable.
Also that means you think tunneling is so strong that it is equivalent to starting survivors on the hook from the start of the match. At which point I don't think anyone can convince you.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635328#Comment_3635328
It's your argumentation that playing 'optimally' puts you at that skill level. Are you now saying that there's a limit to that? That there is some kind of restriction where it goes from being 'optimal' to 'it wins the game for you'?
You're trying to compare playstyles to perks. Give me a playstyle comparable in power and ease to the perk you gave and we can maybe talk.
and tunneling isn't it
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635319#Comment_3635319
What?
It's just playing optimally, so that's their true skill level then, right?
Are you trying to compare a playstyle that the game is balanced around to an outrageous extreme example of a perk that basically wins the game for you?
Yeah it's fine because the survivors have a perk that completes 5 gens and opens the gate at the start of the match. It also stuns the killer for 60 seconds.
To borrow someone else words: "Friend, this is not the best Argumentation and you know it."
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635239#Comment_3635239
So let me get this straight: if BHVR released a killer perk that starts a random survivor on the hook at the start of the match, and some absolutely terrible killer manages to get his behind whooped by a comp team, the comp team would need to be nerfed, not the perk?
I'm sorry but... what are you on about?
How'd we get to starting survivors on hooks ???
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634835#Comment_3634835
If on an equal field of comp vs comp or scrim vs scrim the killers have to tunnel, then on an equal field of average vs average they would also have to tunnel. Because in both cases the skill level is equal.DbD changes far more than a symmetrical game between skill levels. In a symmetrical game as you advance in skill levels, your opponents advance in the same way. DbD adds completely new things at upper levels to one side only: there is no killer equivalent to getting three other survivors, planning out a strategy, and using a map callout system for maximum efficiency.
The path to becoming a really good killer is more direct than the survivor route. Choose a killer and play them a ton. You'll never get truly great unless you are seeking out other super competitive players, but you can get quite far. As survivor, you have to play survivor a ton, but then also go and find three other people who've also played survivor a ton and work out being on a team.
Sure.
None of that changes what happens when you do get good or equal survivors.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635212#Comment_3635212
No?
People tunnel and raise their MMR until they start getting beat down by teams that are actually good, then they come crying for nerfs because tunneling carried them past their actual skill level.
It's possible to counter tunneling if you're good enough, but it takes a hell of a lot more skill to counter it than it does to perform it
If tunneling is the way to play, which considering its the most effective tactic, it is, then they're not "past their skill level" they're at their skill level. Unless survivors slamming gens also puts them "past their skill level" and they come crying for nerfs.
Also I really don't think we should talk about difficulty to counter vs preform when the main way survivors win is essentially "hold M1 on gen, hold W across map, run in a loop, drop pallet".
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634835#Comment_3634835
Because there the balance of the game only tilts into the Survivors favor at the highest level.
At most other levels, it either leans towards the Killer due to perks or powers; or is relatively even.
I can almost guarantee that anyone who doesn't tunnel and is put up against a team of the same skill and the same mentality to them will be able to 2K consistently. I say almost because map RNG could change that in either direction.
But isn't that the current power dynamic with tunneling? Average survivors and killers might be even in power rn with tunneling, but if you take that away, thus nerfing killers as a whole, wouldn't it just favor survivors everywhere but low level play?
And what would happen to higher levels where it already favors survivors even with tunneling? They'd just get even stronger.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634616#Comment_3634616
I would advise you to try out for scrims and then report back.
The gap between "good" pub teams and scrim teams is massive. The gap between scrims and comp is also big.
OhTofu runs a scrim program, I've participated before under a different name. It's a really fun experience and I'd highly recommend it.
I think their point was the same is true for scrim and comp killers having a gap with average killers as well. If on an equal field of comp vs comp or scrim vs scrim the killers have to tunnel, then on an equal field of average vs average they would also have to tunnel. Because in both cases the skill level is equal.
So the question is, why would it be different when both teams are maybe not comp level, but still the same level?
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633991#Comment_3633991
Friend, this is not the best Argumentation and you know it.
What I personally see as "gen-tunneling" is basicly finishing it with the killer standing 2 feet away from you. If someone is getting chased right next to the Gen, why not do this Gen right next to the killer to make them sweat a little harder. The killer had 2 hooks for 4 gens done? Let's just finish the 5th in their face. That's what's complained about. Is this doing the objective? Yes. Is it also basicly saying: "we don't care about your experience at all? Just want to win?" Yes.
Anything else i personally don't see as gen-tunneling but these are UNFUN strategies for the killer that happen more often that you like.
Tunneling and camping are in the game. They are in the game for now over 7 years. Why? Because as @MrPenguin said, it's designed with it in mind. "Fixing" tunneling entirely means giving the survivor literal god mode or making the killer player a bot. Both are not good. I didn't know that insta gen BNPs are still around. Seems like they broke the game and got nerfed. I'm the last guy encouraging tunneling, but it is a necessary evil that sometimes has to come into play.
That is what @MrPenguin meant as far as I see it. Both sides can do stuff that is extremely unfun for the other side. However, it's more frowned upon when the killer side does it for a good reason. Tunneling destroys a lot of interaction, the game normally provides. Everyone gets less points, less chases, less heals and in the worst case scenario less points.
When did anybody say that the game is way too fast for them? Did I miss it? For this I'm going back to my statement from earlier. If the killer has 2 hooks and 4 gens are done without them making huge mistakes, should the 5th be done in their face? No match should only last 4-5 minutes. Not initiated from the survivors or killer doing side. Currently, that's absolutely possible. Slugging Nurse against soloq / voice comms swf against casual Doctor.
If you truly want to tackle tunneling, I suggested to make a version of ds basekit with a ton of HEALTHY requirements that mean, that it ONLY works to counter tunneling and nothing else.
But maybe there should also be a mechanic to encourage killers not to tunnel. Maybe a BBQ stacking effect for BP could be a solution.
Tunneling is a problem, but not as one dimensional as you make it seem like.
Yeah that's pretty much the idea I was going for, thanks.
For what its worth, I agree with what you're saying as well.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634148#Comment_3634148
An equal match for me that killer able to get 5 kills in 2 matches, and that achievement is really easy to get without the need of tunneling.
If you play it fair against a team and get 2K, you would be able to 3-4K if you tunnel. Which mean, for survivors to have 2E against you as a tunneler, they have to be better than you. And if you dont even get 2K after tunneling, survivors are too far better than you which they deserve the winning.
Who decided that was "fair"? Its not "fair" for one side to slam their objective while the other doesn't. That doesn't sound fair to me.
Yeah it would be easy for someone like me because I'm in an MMR where I already don't need to tunnel because that's how I always play. I'm getting survivors well under how well I could play because I choose not to play optimally. But if I wanted to play as well as I could, that would not be the case as I would be tunneling.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634148#Comment_3634148
No.
If your opponents are the same skill, you do not need to tunnel to kill two. You probably don't need to tunnel to kill three.
If your opponents are better than you, then sure.
Yes.
We'll just have to agree to disagree here.
With all due respect I don't really see a way for either of us to prove whether it's "necessary" or not. You feel like its not, I feel like it is. Plenty of others share the same views as both of us.
But regardless we should at least be able to come to an agreement of "if you want slack you need to give slack".
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634138#Comment_3634138
What I am getting at is that this line:
"I understand what you're trying to get at but tunneling and camping are not OP and overpowered. They are needed to preform at an even level in an evenly skilled match."
Is getting cemented more and more with every survivor nerf/killer buff. This idea that you -have- to tunnel is a supposition that's being leveraged to demand more survivor nerfs/killer buffs.
It really doesn't matter what the state of the game is like, as long as you, as killer, get to be the sole arbiter of what's 'necessary to win', you're always going to claim tunnelling is required.
And you're never going to find out if it's true, either. Tunnelling can inflate your MMR to a point where you're not getting 'even' matches. Matches won by tunnelling could've been winnable without. You'll never know.
That's why tunnelling needs to be ripped out. We'll never have a clear understanding of the balance as long as it exists.
"I'm not sure where you're getting this data. Killer win rate should be around 60% so accounting for discrepancies in killer strength maybe 55%-65% give or take afaik. I would like to see where it's above those numbers."
A -win- rate of 60%!? That's extremely killer sided.
I assume you mean a -kill- rate of 60%, which BHVR, a long time ago, stated was what they felt was best for the game.
But right now, we're sitting on killer winrates that are a little ways over survivor winrates. Killers are outperforming survivors. Increasing killrates would slant the game too much towards killers.
But killers are not the sole arbiter. Survivors are also deciding slamming gens is also "necessary to win".
If you have to tunnel to win then you have to. If you have to slam gens you need to. That doesn't mean survivors need nerf or killers need buffs, just that you should tunnel your objective.
However if you want to nerf killers by removing or hindering their tunneling abilities, then for the sake of balance you should do the same to the other side. Unless survivors are already underpowered, which is not my experience playing as or against survivors unless its like, Nurse.
Imo, it's not "inflating your MMR" to play in the most efficient way possible. That's what your MMR is for the playstyle you're using. It should put you in matches where playing your best is the same as the opposition playing their best. Is it it inflating survivors MMR by them slamming gens? No, that's just what their MMR is.
It sounds like you want a shift in the balance philosophy and/or state where tunneling is no longer the thing we balance around. Which if that's true on that I can agree. We should stop tunneling. We just need to do so in a way that doesn't bork over the entire balance.
Again, either from the game or the community.
Also yes I assumed you meant killrate since that usually what people mean. So I can take fault for that. But I also don't know where this data for winrates is coming from, so if you could share that'd be appreciated.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3634138#Comment_3634138
Tunneling is not necessary.
It's easy, efficient and EXTREMELY difficult to counter, ie, OP. That's why it's common.
On that I'd disagree. At least if you're on an even skill level with the opposition.
Like I said if you outclass the survivors a lot sure. Which with the way matchmaking is, can happen more often than not for some.
If you always play a certain way then you will get put where that playstyle is effective. Myself for example. I'm probably well below where my skill level actually is in MMR, but that's because I DO spread hooks. So ideally I'm put where me handicapping myself is equal to the skill of the opposition.
Matchmaking could be better but that's the idea.
When I face good efficient survivors, they will roll me because I'm handicapping myself. As they should. But if we both handicapped ourselves we could both have better matches. But they don't want to.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633962#Comment_3633962
"forum survivors" also reject the idea of doing anything to combat their unfun effective strategies as well. Both sides go through this.
Strategies like what?
Because currently, the biggest complaint coming from the killer side is that survivors sometimes win by doing their objective. That is what these complaints boil down to. That's why the term shifted from 'genrush' to 'gen-tunnelling'. Because genrushing was already acknowledged to be a problem, and killers now just want to make 'survivors doing gens' into a problem.
Tunneling and camping aren't "breaking the game", the game is designed with them in mind. The game expect you to.
This argumentation can excuse literally everything. Remember old old BNPs? Instafix a gen?
Game was designed with them in mind. Game expected you to.
Did it break the game?
So again I ask, do you want both sides to handicap themselves or not? There needs to be a general agreement for both sides to either play "to win" or "Play to win but with handicaps so it's more fun".
The handicap you're asking for on the survivor side is literally that they just throw the game. The slowest possible pace isn't slow enough for you. And guess what? It's going to continue to not be slow enough for you. You lose one match and you'll be back here.
Tunnelling is by far the most effective and fastest way to win.
Doing gens is the ONLY way to win for survivors. Asking them to stop doing that is to ask them to just lose.
Killer winrates are above where they should be. They're a good distance above survivor win rates. But it's not enough. And it's never going to be. Tunnelling is always going to make you feel like you have an argument.
It needs to be ripped out so killers can see how the game is supposed to work.
If, and only IF, this causes killer winrates to drop too low, we can talk about nerfing survivors. Because we've been through several waves of survivor nerfs and the tunnelling never stopped, and nerfs to tunnelling continue to be off-limits. I don't trust any forum killer to admit, after any survivor nerfs, that tunnelling is breaking the game, so we're not doing this whole 'nerf survivors and then we'll stop tunnelling' song and dance again.
I think its kinda minimizing to say its just "survivors win sometimes by doing their objective". That's like saying "survivors are just upset that the killer sometimes win by doing their objective. Their trying to say 'killers getting kills' is a problem'". Its not just winning in general that's the problem. Its doing the objective in the mot effective playstyle for either side that's not fun for the other or sometimes both parties. From the killer perspective, especially when they expect and often demand that the killer purposefully play in a very suboptimal way that in any serious match is throwing. It's not just people saying saying "doing gens at all is a problem".
I understand what you're trying to get at but tunneling and camping are not OP and overpowered. They are needed to preform at an even level in an evenly skilled match. Things like BNP were not needed to preform equally and they were unbalanced.
So maybe its more accurate to say "the game is balanced with these things in play/mind" which cannot be said for BNPs and such.
Sure, if you outclass the survivors you can spread hooks around. If you always play by spreading hooks, like myself, you should be in an MMR where you can do that and still win reliably. But that needs matchmaking to work well and we both know it doesn't for both sides.
"The handicap you're asking for on the survivor side is literally that they just throw the game."
Yes, exactly, and you're asking killers to do so as well. If both sides throw then neither side is throwing. The problem is survivors are asking killers to throw, while they themselves play efficiently.
I understand that "well we don't want to do totems and chest, it makes winning take longer and actively detrimental". which is fine, but if that's you attitude stop asking for the killer to spread hooks, because it's the same for them.
No ones asking for only survivors to handicap themselves while the killer tunnels, just that survivors return the favor when killers don't tunnel in their own way. But instead we get this attitude that "no we can't. We NEED to ONLY do gens and do so efficiently, even if the killer is giving us slack". Which is exactly the thing in the way.
I'll give you slack if you give me slack. This people will be a lot more willing to agree to.
You need to give me slack but I won't give you any. This people will not agree to and they shouldn't.
"Killer winrates are above where they should be."
I'm not sure where you're getting this data. Killer win rate should be around 60% so accounting for discrepancies in killer strength maybe 55%-65% give or take afaik. I would like to see where it's above those numbers.
Well, I can't speak for others but I'm not asking for a nerf to survivors alone and acting like weaker survivors = less tunneling because that's not true. Just like nerfing killers won't make survivors suddenly stop slamming gens.
If its coming from the game, both sides need to be slowed down. How that's done can vary.
If its coming from the community, the mindset of survivors needs to change to consider the killers side of the equation and their fun as well.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you want killers to not tunnel and purposefully make bad decisions while survivors continue to slam gens and play efficiently. To that I ask you, how is this fair to the killer player?
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633909#Comment_3633909
So would you rather have both sides play relaxed or both sides play efficient?
My guy, we had that. Killers didn't like it. Now it's gone, and killers don't like that either.
Any talk of restricting camping/tunnelling/slugging is always going to get mired in a bunch of forum killers decrying the very idea or drowning it in drawbacks and conditions to make sure that the mechanism, even if it ever does see the light of day, does the bare minimum.
We had whole loadouts being dedicated to countering those strategies and those had to be nerfed. We had people wasting time on boons, they had to be nerfed. We had people healing, that had to be nerfed.
Also idk where you've been, but gens going too fast has been complained about since forever.
But it's never been complained about more than now. Now, when gens all take 10 seconds longer. Now, when killers work faster in a bunch of aspects.
You know what it is?
As long as tunnelling/camping/slugging are in the game, survivors will always be 'too strong'. Gens will always go 'too fast'. Because as long as you have the ability to utterly break the game, you have leverage it to make demands. All these methods are used as beatsticks in balancing discussions.
'We'll tunnel less after a round of nerfs.'
'We'll tunnel less after the next round of nerfs.'
'No, no, one more round of nerfs and we'll totally tunnel less.'
'Gosh, you survivors are so stubborn, just take your nerfs and we'll totally tunnel less.'
Kill rate could be 95%, and as long as tunnelling has not been addressed yet, the second someone complains about tunnelling, there will be complaints about 'gen-tunnelling'.
I'm not sure what you mean by "we had that". We had what? Both sides playing efficient? Isn't that the supposed problem? If that's the case its not just "killers" survivors don't like it either.
"forum survivors" also reject the idea of doing anything to combat their unfun effective strategies as well. Both sides go through this.
Those things got nerfed, in most cases, because they were too strong. Things on the killer side got nerfed as well for the same reason. Both sides experience this.
You can't just sub one problem for another and then ask "but why are you complaining about the new problem?". It's still a problem and should be complained about so it can hopefully get fixed. We need improvements not replacing old problems with new sometimes worse problems.
How much something is complained about is subjective. We got gen times increased because it was complained about so much and people were legit quitting killer and survivor ques were 20+ minuets. Was that more or less than now? To me it feels about the same.
Survivors (good ones) are too strong, for the majority of killers at least, if you don't tunnel/camp/ect. That's part of the problem. I'm not sure if that's what you're saying or not but that's my opinion on the matter. They are tied to each other. Gens do fly and they do so because killers can make kills fly by as well. If you choose not to have your kills fly by, the gens don't care. They don't get longer timers and as is survivors also don't care they will still slam gens. At least one of these needs to change if you have any serious intention of making the game fun for everyone not just survivors.
Tunneling and camping aren't "breaking the game", the game is designed with them in mind. The game expect you to. Choosing not to do so is handicapping yourself. Likewise focusing gens is not "breaking the game", but you handicap yourself if you choose not do it.
So again I ask, do you want both sides to handicap themselves or not? There needs to be a general agreement for both sides to either play "to win" or "Play to win but with handicaps so it's more fun".
Killers are not going to tunnel less unless you give them a reason to the same way survivors are not going to slam gens less unless you give them a reason to. Whether that's from the game itself or the community.
There are killers who play "nice" because of the idea that they should to help others have fun. But I never see survivors holding themselves up to that ideal as well.
If killers should play "nice" why shouldn't survivors? The double standard is hurting both sides.
Do I expect it to change? No. Survivors want their handbook signed but don't want to sign the killers. That's how its always been. I'm cynical af and would love to be wrong about this. But I've seen close to if not zero progress in the entire time I've played the game.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633902#Comment_3633902
It makes a difference because it draws a false equivalence.
Killers can choose not to tunnel, while still progressing.
The only way survivors can 'not gen-tunnel' is by loitering around doing nothing.
As long as many if not most survivor players refuse to show the killer any respect or kindness in this regard out of the flimsy defense of "ThE GeNs DoNt HaVe FeELinGs", things will remain as they are.
We've had YEARS upon years of killers constantly refusing to accept any measures being taken against these extremes, but now that killers have been buffed to hell and back and survivors are playing efficient to try and keep up with it, suddenly it's the survivors that are stubbornly refusing to yield?
Gens going 'too fast' is comparatively recent. Killers cutting corners and wrecking the game in the process is as old as DBD itself.
That's under the argument that its a false equivalence which I disagree with. It might be false in your view, but to others not so.
Well if survivors have to do chest and do totems then so be it. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You need to do something to give the killer extra slack since they are giving your side extra slack. If you don't want to then don't ask for extra slack.
So would you rather have both sides play relaxed or both sides play efficient? You can't have efficient for me but not for thee. Well, at least if you don't want to be a donkey. Which is exactly the reputation survivors have and this is a large reason why, double standards.
Also idk where you've been, but gens going too fast has been complained about since forever. I can only account for when I started playing the game back when clown was released, and ever since then its been complained about. It is in no way "recent" that junk is older than Plague.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633577#Comment_3633577
Tunneling gens doesn't necessarily mean one specific gen, it means putting gens before all other side objectives (hook saves, body blocks, healing, etc.) Maybe thats where we're not seeing eye to eye.
Oooh.
You mean genrushing.
Does it matter what we call it? The ideas the same.
Tunnel gens, gen rushing, tunnel kills, kill rushing. It's all the same in the sense of "I'm mowing down my objective efficiently because I want to win".
There's plenty of IRL examples of the same thing being referred to with different names/words/phrases. I don't see why all of a sudden in a game it NEEDS to be referred to as only 1 specific word/phrase.
Everyone knows what's being referred to.
The main point is: you're focusing you're objective I'm focusing mine. It hurts your "feelings" to get killed quickly? Well maybe it bothers killers too to have gens finished quickly.
If you want killers to consider your feelings on losing too quickly you need to respect theirs as well. As long as many if not most survivor players refuse to show the killer any respect or kindness in this regard, especially out of the flimsy defense of "ThE GeNs DoNt HaVe FeELinGs", things will remain as they are.
Sure the gens don't, but the killer player does. Why should they respect your feelings and your play, if you don't respect theirs?
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The other survivor should have crawled away.
Also it's intended to be anti-facecamp, not just camping in general. Hence the detection being only 16 meters.
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Yeah that sounds like mid-high to high MMR.
Unless other killers get buffs I don't see Blight going anywhere. Weaker killers just can't compete up there. I would personally enjoy that as variety would be nice, but we have to consider the average gamer who already struggle against even mid tier killers.
Perks can change at any time though. A new chapter with good perks or number tweaks is all it takes. Even a shift on the survivor side can change killer perks.
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Not to rain on your parade but this build has been known about since Demo got their add-on pass.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3630349#Comment_3630349
What do you think the EGC mechanic for?
What do you think that has to do with circumventing the mechanic to begin with thus not having anything to complain about?
That's like complaining about the DC penalty. Who cares when you can just self sacrifice and ignore it anyway.
"What do you think the DC penalty is for?"
Does it matter when you can just easily ignore it?
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limit maybe, different buffs no.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3630349#Comment_3630349
Whose going to complain about a mechanic they can choose to ignore and that rarely ever matters?
Then we should not see many complaints about the new anti 3-gen mechanic. Hopefully that will be the case.
as long as it rarely ever matters sure. Some people are saying that's not the case but we'll see once it hits live and isn't in the mess that is the PTB.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3630099#Comment_3630099
But then most players would hate the EGC, wouldn't they?
It tremendously limits the potential of interesting plays happening after the gates are opened, because it added a timer, and yet disliking the EGC is an extremely unpopular opinion.
Survivors just ignore the mechanic entirely by just 99ing the gates, which is complained about.
Whose going to complain about a mechanic they can choose to ignore and that rarely ever matters?
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@I_CAME said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622668#Comment_3622668
I'm never sure if these posts about only 3-4 killers being viable at high MMR are actually serious. I play killer nearly every day and have been doing so for years. I have no issues winning with any of them outside of maybe the bottom five weakest. Stricter matchmaking will never happen because killers won't allow it. 90% of the pushback on stricter matchmaking comes from killer mains who don't want to play against strong survivors every match. Usually influential streamers are at the forefront of this. The matchmaking being what it is now is what allows things like that one clown main to win 90% of his games at high MMR with zero slowdown perks. They've done so many things to make killers stronger since 6.1 and I have no idea what people even want at this point.
Depends on what people mean when they say "high MMR".
If its just past the softcap sure. But that's more because there a huge range of skill there so if you're actually really good you should be doing well more often than not just because you'll outclass most of the survivors by a lot. Imo that sounds like what you're talking about and in my experience it's about the same. Of course it goes the same on the other side where if you just have an above average survivor group to play with you'll roll most of the killers as well. Speaking from experience on that end as well.
When I think of a "high MMR match" I'm considering all of the players are really good, not just the killer. In situations where the entire survivor team is strong, that's where only the top few killers can compete.
So there's a strange dichotomy of "yeah I can win a lot if not most of my killer games because I'm good at killer and matchmaking sucks so I get survivors I shouldn't" and "but in the games where I get matched with survivors who are also actually good and/or at my level, if I'm not playing x, y, or z killer then I kinda just lose by default".
It's the second situation I believe people have an issue with as there's not really much you can do besides just play the stronger killers next time. It's at least what I have an issue with.
It's either easy because I'm getting survivors way under my level, or I can't reasonably compete because I'm not playing an A+ or S tier killer and I actually got good survivors. If I lose with someone like Wesker, in most cases it was my fault or the survivors were cracked lol.
It'd be more accurate to say "in games where the survivors are good and there's no weak link to exploit or large skill gap, only a few killers can consistently and reasonably compete".
At least that's been my experience.
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If you're not playing Nurse, Blight, Spirit, and maybe Wesker, yes.
But if you make gens take longer, make chases shorter by buffing killers, or make maps smaller/weaker to help; most survivors will get upset so idk what to suggest to be done that won't have them throw a fit.
I would say better matchmaking for more even matches but this community seems to be more inclined towards unfair matchmaking so they can pub stomp more games "like the good old days" of ranks.
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- Spirit - might be some leftover trauma from when she was even stronger but: never was fun to play against her, too strong for how simple/easy she is to play, going from top 1st or 2nd to 3rd best isn't much of an improvement imo on the receiving end. Playing as her is a power trip though.
- Myers - either boring and weak or has busted add-ons. Lack of counterplay to the power besides praying to the luck lords that you have a good LOS breaking map generation isn't fun either. Exposed last too long. Not gameplay related but people exaggerate how weak he is imo. Not great by any means but not worst or 2nd worst killer. Very much a "not super strong but very annoying" killer.
- Freddy - Sleep mechanic is tedious and the lullaby is super annoying
- Hag- Do I even need to explain?
- Skull Merchant- see above.
List is not ordered. That said my most disliked is Spirit lol.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3601085#Comment_3601085
We technically have BP incentives now to encourage people to play a specific role and at least in my zone it’s usually 100% survivor until late evening. But it turns back to survivor after midnight. And remains there until late evening again.
That's why I said usually. For some people in certain MMR brackets combined with regions and time of play, among other factors, it can be different.
I almost always see it on killer unless there's something going on like recently with the Chucky release. Outside of things like that I'm pretty surprised the once in a blue moon it's on survivor.
Overall, from what I can gather at least, survivors are very much the majority of the playerbase, or at least where most players spend more of their playtime if they play both.
Having a general incentive to the side less played might be their goal.
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My guess is because they want some incentive to play killer since in general the game is usually lacking a lot more in the killer department than the survivor one for a few reasons. In terms of amount of people playing the role.
Usually.
That said, personally I wouldn't be against an increase.
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@Hensen2100 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3587811#Comment_3587811
Why not? I face plenty of Nurse's and Blights in solo Q. And it's one of the biggest wastes of time I can think of because those characters are way too strong for solo's unless the killer is a complete bot
And killers playing someone like Legion, GF, or Pig face SWF that are way too strong for that character unless the survivors are bots.
It goes both ways.
We need to pick a power level for both sides to balance around, either low mid or high. But it has to be the same on both. Either the few at the top or the majority at the low-mid.
If you wanna nerf or restrict perks solely because of the top 2 killers ignoring the other ~90% of the killer roster, than you should be doing the same on the other side. Likewise if you're balancing for the "low/mid power" level of survivor, which is solo, then you should do the same for killer. In which case the perk is fine. Well, unless you want to just blatantly favor survivors.
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Is popping 3 gens at 1 hook necessary?
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@[Deleted User] said:
Unbalanced Ultimate Weapon:
The perk in its current state.
Balanced Ultimate Weapon:
Whenever you open a locker, Ultimate Weapon activates.
Any Survivors within your terror radius scream and reveal their location to you.
Those Survivors suffer from the blindness status effect for 30 seconds.
Ultimate Weapon has a cool-down of 40/35/30 seconds.
This adjustment allows the perk to synergize well with iron maiden but in all honesty, it would heavily nerf the perk and put it with the rest of the trash perks which is what needs to happen. MFT is already getting this treatment. The way the perk is in its current state is unhealthy for the game as it’s just too potent for solo queue to deal with. 4 game out of 5 if the killer has UW, it’s going to be a bad game for survivors in solo.
I do agree with this change, but not the reasoning behind it 100% in this case.
If we're going to balance for SoloQ we shouldn't balance for Nurse and Blight. That'd be balancing survivors for the "low tier" but killers for the "high tier".
UW is fine on most killers its just the very top where its a problem.
If your balance philosophy is low-mid tiers then UW is fine, if its high tiers then it should be nerfed a little bit.
But we should be consistent for both sides. Its either SoloQ and low killers or SWF and high killers.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3586543#Comment_3586543
Yes, if Nurse and Blight are not going anywhere we need to nerf perks. Strong perks should never exists when these killers are in game.
I would like to see nuke Blight and rework Nurse but i am highly doubt this will happen. So we have to target next things which makes them even worse to face.
If we're only caring about the <10% of the killers at the top we should do the same for survivors.
Strong survivor perks should never exist as long as good SWFs are in the game.
SoloQ and other killers can just Suffer I guess.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581902#Comment_3581902
"Select add-on disclaimer" kinda undermines your whole point, doesn't it? Blight only gives you a remotely fair fight if he's holding back.
No it doesn't and I already explained why.
Regardless, as I expressed, at this point I think our best option is to agree to disagree and move on.
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Its just a bubble coupled with the worse status effect in the game. It announces to the survivor when it procs. It's not hard at all to just move? It's not like it's an Aura.
It being "the best info perk", which is already debatable, doesn't mean its too strong. One perk is gonna be the strongest in every category. Should we also nerf COH again just because it's the best boon?
It's a problem on Nurse and Blight but most info perks are. That's a Nurse and Blight issue not a perk issue.
At the end of the day its just info, and it's not like its old OoO levels where its just perma wall hacks. If UW needs a hard nerf so does WoO.
The most I could say is make it not move with the killer and go on CD instantly.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581621#Comment_3581621
Dude I wouldn’t even continue the conversation. You have made excellent points and counter arguments that they continue to ignore and flip. Some people aren’t worth debating with on here.
They will refuse to listen to anything that doesn’t agree with their opinion.
But I applaud you for your comments. You made some very good points here, even though you were met with fallacy filled responses.
I appreciate the sentiment and thank you for the compliment, I really appreciate it.
Honestly I feel similarly. I'm sure they also have similar feelings just flipped unto me. Warranted or not.
I'm trying to push it in the direction of a conclusion if I can while also at least giving their points a proper response. But I also tend to go into a lot of detail when I reply so "wrapping things up" is really not my strong suit.
But I don't see much more to discuss so one way or another it should be over soon.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581621#Comment_3581621
According to BHVR's stats, Blight's killrate goes up in high MMR, not down. From 57% to 61%.
If you want to lose less often against Blight, the optimal move is to NOT get good.
You're simply not rewarded for playing well against Blight. Your reward is to face him and lose to him more often, not less.
Nurse and Blight are the Meta Knights of DbD; sure, you can beat an "average" Meta Knight who hasn't really learned to use the character to the fullest, but only to a point. The characters are consistently at the top of the tier list because after a point, you simply CAN'T outskill them anymore. The "git gud" argument falls apart almost immediately with a character that thrives specifically in an environment where people have gotten gud.
I mean yeah it makes sense that the character that scales with how good the player is, gets better as the players do. Going off of the fact that "balanced" in this game is a 60% kill rate (according to the devs), according to those stats he was just fine.
"You're not rewarded because you start to face better players" is true for every killer and the game in general. It's true for killer players as well, including Blight. They get better and get stronger survivors in their games. But facing better players because you got better is not a punishment, it's balancing. That's literally what MMR is supposed to be doing. Your "reward" is moving up in the skill brackets and over more players.
I guess if you just don't want to be better/good at the game then you shouldn't but if you don't want to get good at the game you shouldn't complain when better players beat you.
You're choosing to stay not good enough to ever compete vs trying to be able to compete because you got better. When people want advice they're usually looking to improve to the point they can get over the problem if possible, not drop their skill bracket down to where the problem doesn't exist. Although I suppose technically that is a solution.
Blight doesn't get to a point where he's consistently defeating survivors better than him. He starts mid/weak, slowly gets better as they climb, and at the top he's on even ground with the other good survivors. Again, select add-on disclaimer (SAOD). So if they're beating you and they don't have busted add-ons, then they just played better.
No you can't "outskill" him to the point you'll win most of your games like most killers, but you shouldn't be able to. The killer can be good at the game as well and that should also matter. It should come down to who plays better in that match, which is exactly where he is (SAOD).
It feels like you just want a "solution" for Blight where you do X and will win most your games regardless of the Blights skill/effort. But where does that leave the person playing the killer? Most of the roster is already like that and we should be working to reduce the number not increase it.
Which if that's what you're advocating for, intentional or not, we're going to have to agree to disagree.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581557#Comment_3581557
Again, what's supposed to follow is that getting better will help you in some way, and it doesn't. Blight scales extremely well with player skill by your own admission, so any tricks you learn to beat him with are quickly tempered by Blights who've learned how to beat you in chase anyway.
Your own extremely specific experience with Blight is not the norm, and expecting everyone to match your exact skill level, never getting better, is quite unreasonable.
I'm sorry, but what do you want then?
As the survivors get better the killers dont?
Good survivors already roll the vast majority of the killer roster. Do you want it to be the whole thing?
Yes Blight gets better as skill increases, so the other side should have to also play better to compete. He gets stronger as survivors get stronger. Outside of add-ons he does not reach a level where skilled survivors can't resonably win.
This just sounds like its circling back to "Why cant mid survivors beat a good blight". Which they shouldn't, since he's playing better.
Do you just want them deleted?
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581446#Comment_3581446
Okay, getting "good" is not unreasonable at all. Sure, I suppose so.
Just one small problem: Getting good doesn't solve a thing if your problem is with Blight. In the short term, it might win you a couple games, but in the long term, it'll make your problem worse, because you'll be running into better Blights, and there'll be more of them.
With that in mind, if you really can't stand Blight, ultimately the only winning move is not to play. Disconnect or give up at the first sight of him; it'll even lower your MMR so you'll run into him less in the future. Which is one of many reasons we generally base tier lists around the MMR softcap.
Yes and no. I'd rather take "I can play against this killer as long as they don't bring busted add-ons" over "I can't play against this killer at all". Especially when we know he has add-on changes planned.
Also like I said, the Blights where I'm at are just mid and pretty manageable. You should only really be struggling a ton against the average Blight if you're on the worse side.
Getting better against Blight isn't going to shoot you into high MMR, that's just as you said "a couple games". You can definitely get better against him without raising your general MMR much. Unless I'm an anomaly for some reason.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3581010#Comment_3581010
The majority opinion on Nurse and Blight is that they're top-tier; every time I've seen a polling-based tier list, they sit firmly at the top, and the consensus is that that's unlikely to ever change until they receive nerfs. The consensus on Nurse is that she's likely to lose several games at least when you're starting out with her, but is actually quite easy and forgiving once you've learned the basics of how to blink where you want to blink. Blight is rated as having mechanics that feel slightly more "fair", but regardless, his power is disgusting and can easily beat Survivors of any skill level.
The most recent BHVR stats are over a year old, and didn't count DCs as kills, so the true killrate for killers like Nurse and Blight is likely much higher than it appears on that stats page.
So, let me get this straight: Blight is "fine" at average skill level, and players who have a problem with him just need to get good, but players who actually do get good at the game are now playing at a skill level where their opinions are no longer relevant to balance? Again, that's called a double bind. No matter what a Survivor does, if they have a problem with Blight, there's always a reason for why you don't have to listen to them. The way you resolve a double bind is simple: Pick one argument and stick with it. Should Survivors get good if they have a problem with Blight, or shouldn't they?
That's the majority opinion for her power with good players, not for the average skill level. Like I've said multiple times. People generally don't talk about tier list for players who aren't good at the game or the average persons level. If they do they usually make it a point to say its for low level games or w.e. That's why if anyone says "Wraith is OP, Freddy is OP, Pinhead is OP, Dredge is OP" the responses are usually "no they're not" despite them actually being dummy strong against the average player and they're not S tier in tier list. They're usually not even A tier. Average and low skill level games are not the skill level people generally decide how strong a character preforms.
Also idk where you're hearing the common sentiment is that Nurse is easy and forgiving to play and learn, they're regarded as one of if not the hardest killer in the game by so much and so many I'm tired of hearing about it. The other killers usually fighting for that spot are Blight, Artist, and Billy afaik. Basically saying "once you get really good at the hard thing it's not that hard anymore" doesn't change that and can apply to pretty much anything. Yeah nothing is hard once you get good at it, but getting good at it is what makes it hard.
If Nurse was easy we'd be seeing her everywhere not just in high MMR. Like when Spirit was busted she was everywhere because she was easy af to play. Same with Freddy when he was busted.
As I hear it, Blight is also in a similar situation where he mainly exist in High MMR. Personally I haven't seen Nurse or Blight in over a month, and I know I'm not in top MMR. Above average maybe, but not top. So that lines up with my experience. For the record when I do see Blights, they're usually not that hard to counterplay for me personally (my team is another story). I doubt I'm a god gamer against Blight despite not being in top MMR or facing him much, its much more likely that the average Blight is just mid and the average player (such as my teammates) are just subpar. As I've been saying.
I already explained that good =/= comp level. Those are 2 different bars. The comp level games are the ones that are unreasonable levels where at that point its not worth really considering. Just getting "good" is not unreasonable at all. Might not be the average but its not hard to achieve if you actually try.
I have been sticking to my argument you just aren't understanding or refusing to listen, intentionally or not.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3580919#Comment_3580919
"Pub stomper" characters have the highest killrates on Nightlight, true. But generally speaking, strong Killers stay strong and weak Killers stay weak regardless of the overall skill level. Especially a Killer like Blight who can always fall back on M1 gameplay.
You keep claiming that the "average" game is so low skill that Blight and Nurse go from S-tier to mid-tier to downright weak. Why don't you back it up with a source? You've dismissed tier lists, you've dismissed NightLight, so unless you've got something else, all that leaves is your word against mine. And to no one's surprise (Hopefully), I don't find that very convincing.
Besides, there's still one glaring issue with your whole argument of "get good"... what is a Survivor supposed to do when they actually do get good and hit the MMR softcap? If anything, hitting the MMR cap will make them run into Nurse/Blight and lose to them even more. By your own admission, Nurse and Blight get stronger the higher the overall skill level is in a match.
What source do you realistically want? The only "source" I can really give is the data the devs released where Nurse was at the bottom of the kill rate and Blight was mid for the overall game. Nurse is always at the bottom of the kill rates whenever they release data for the average player or overall game.
If you have a reliable source that says that most of the player of the game are good at it I would love to see it as well.
Besides that all I can only give you is the common sentiment I've been hearing for the past 5 years since I've started playing: Nurse is bad unless you put in a lot of practice with her, an average player won't cut it. Blights been out for less time but I've heard pretty much the same for him: Blight is pretty ok baseline, but you need to put in a lot of practice to make him strong.
Sure you can fall back on M1 gameplay, but M1 gameplay is garbage against any decent survivors. Which is also common knowledge. Mostly because of map/loop design.
As for tier list, I'm just stating that they are not for the group you're trying to use them for. They're still valid, just not for the majority of the playerbase. Otherwise Nurse would have been nerfed way down and Trapper + Myers would have been significantly buffed. The balance changes we get/got would be completely different if those tier list were accurate for the average player. Those list are made for good-great players, which is not the majority as far as I have seen and can tell.
Again, if you have a reliable source that says that most of the player of the game are good at it I would love to see it.
As I see it, if the reliable source data we do have is saying that killers like Sadako, Dredge, Freddy, Pig, and Pinhead are stomping, and we know that those killers are only good against subpar players, meanwhile Killers that are much stronger but require skill are performing worse, then it makes more sense that its because most players are subpar.
If the tier list being made for good players by good players are not reflecting the actual majority game results, then it makes more sense it's because most players are subpar.
If the vast majority of random teammates are really bad then it makes more sense that it's because the majority of players are subpar.
I just don't see any evidence for that not being the case.
As for the last argument, as stated before once you get better, Blights basekit is fine and certain add-ons are fine. He's still good but not ridiculous. But there's certain other add-ons that take him over the top that should be toned down. Outside of that you can counterplay him; him running those add-ons is not a given every game.
Furthermore again, you have to pick who you're balancing for. If you want to balance for good players then ~85-90% of the killer roster needs buffs and we can nerf Nurse and nerf Blights add-ons. If it's for the average player then Nurse is the worst killer in the game and we should be nerfing Sadako, Pig, Pinhead, and ect. and Blights just Mid. If his add-ons are a problem even in the average range then yeah nerf them too.
Which if that's what you want to do then fine, just keep it consistent. Not "balance killer for the good players, balance survivor for the bad-average ones".
If you want to disagree with the majority opinion, at least as far as I have seen it, you can do that as well. There's things I know I disagree with that the majority believes as well. Maybe not in this case, but in others.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3580821#Comment_3580821
"Nurse needs buffs and Blight is mid against average players" is a hot take if I've ever seen one. Because I don't see any evidence for it. Both are in the top 10 killrates on NightLight, and are consistently rated as S-tier on pro players' tier lists even for standard play.
Their killrates are also likely to be deflated in BHVR's September 2022 stats, since disconnects didn't count as a kill.
As soon as you've learned the basics of playing them, there's not much that can beat you with any level of consistency.
You're leaving out the part that an average killer is also behind the wheel, which drastically reduces their performance.
Pro players and content creators aren't tier listing for "standard play" they're listing for games with at least decent-good players. As far as I've seen at least.
Nightlight also has Skull Merchant, Sadako, Freddy, Plague, and Wraith above both of them. Pinhead is still over Nurse and Trapper is right under her. Huntress is also almost the worst killer in the game and Trapper is almost Nurse strong on there apparently. So If you want to use that we should be nerfing killers like Freddy, who most people put in bottom tier, and Wraith. We really shouldn't be using massively generalized unnuanced data for balancing. Much less self reporting ones like Nightlight.
Getting to a level where you can roll the majority of teams is too much for the majority of the player base. I really think you're underestimating just how low skill level the "average" game/gamer is.
Also "top 10" with the current roster is about 1/3rd of the killers. Not saying much with that.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3580581#Comment_3580581
I said "master the fundamentals", not "reach the skill cap". Unless you think we should balance around baby Nurses who need 20 blinks to land a hit?
and I said "good at the game" not "reach the skill cap".
Idk what you want. You don't want to balance around average players, since by that stance Nurse need buffs and Blight is just mid. But you also think asking survivors to get good is too much.
It just sound like you want to balance around good killers but average survivors, which is a double standard.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3580551#Comment_3580551
No, the tier lists I've seen were for standard gameplay, simply assuming the Killer has mastered the fundamentals of playing their character.
And what makes Blight particularly nasty is that unlike Killers such as Sadako and Pinhead, he doesn't simply fall apart against Survivor teams who have learned what counterplay he has and know what they're doing.
You just described being a good player lol. Idk how you can argue having to master the killer isn't being good at the killer.
Its not just about the killer either, it's also with the framework that the survivors know what they're doing and also mastered the fundamentals of playing against the killer. Which most don't.
I'm not sure if by "standard" you mean "average", but the average player is not good at the game. If you want to balance around the average, then I'm not going to say you're wrong, but that would mean we need to buff Nurse and nerf Sadako.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579893#Comment_3579893
Perhaps you could introduce me to these "average Survivors" you keep talking about? Last I checked, the consensus is that Blight is S-tier, disgustingly powerful, and consistently makes mincemeat of Survivors at every skill level. And that's been my experience as well; when I go up against Blight, I have no illusions that I, or anyone else, is likely to make it out alive. He interrupts Survivors and gets downs quickly and easily, far too quickly for the average Survivor team to keep up with.
And functionally, "Some of the addons are too much" is perfectly in line with that, because those addons are common and pervasive in pub games, for obvious reasons.
Last I checked all those tier list are considering players who are actually good at the game on both sides hence why killers like Pinhead and Sadako are low-mid tiers despite us knowing that against the average survivor they stomp really hard and Nurse in S despite being weak in the average players hands.
General consensus afaik is average Blight is mid-decent, but good blights are very strong. Hence why he's considered a killer whose pretty hard to play, again, similar to Nurse. If the average player was strong with him that wouldn't be the case. In both cases add-ons shoot Blight overboard.
A tier list for the average level of play would look very different.
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@Wowie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579900#Comment_3579900
Perhaps grow thicker skin and don't focus so much on what other people are doing.
I never said it bothered me or anything like that. That's just the reality of the situation.
Regardless that doesn't change what people are doing. Thick skin or not, you're not going to keep being nice to people just for them to spit in your face.
Thick skin =/= continue to be "nice" to people who treat you like trash. It's not getting upset or offended, but that doesn't mean you don't respond or change your future behavior.
But if you take that stance then survivors should also get "thick skin" and stop complaining about killers not playing for their fun.
I still play "nice" but it has nothing to do with how people see me. I just have more fun personally playing a more mobile and spread out playstyle. I really don't care if the survivors like it or not. It just happens to align with what they say they enjoy. However, that does give me perspective/experience on how they respond and act under those circumstances. Which is what I shared earlier.
Play "nice" and they BM you, play mean and they get upset. Not all the time obviously, but frequently. At least in my experience.
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@Wowie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579354#Comment_3579354
then what is the point they're making? that playing "nice" isn't viable? because that's literally not true
That playing "nice" is not only not appreciated, but gets you mocked on top of losing you more games than otherwise.
Yet survivors will flock to the forums and other socials wondering why more killers aren't playing that way after they just gate bagged, "gg ez", flash spammed, pallet bagged, and slammed gens to the last 20 killers who did play nice to them. Then claim that they're innocent.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579759#Comment_3579759
Blight gets slapped in comp when he's nerfed heavily by the rules- not allowed to bring any of his strongest addons or perks. One of the most intricate things about competitive DbD is often the ban list, specifically trying to create a balanced matchup for killers like Blight.
The problem with your logic is that it's a double bind- no matter what the Survivors do, Blight is never the problem. If Survivors don't get good, it's a skill issue so their opinions don't matter. If Survivors do get good, their experiences aren't representative of the playerbase at large so their opinions also don't matter.
By your logic, there is no scenario where a Survivor who complains about Blight has a valid opinion worth listening to. And why should anyone listen to you if you're just making up rules so that nobody who disagrees with you can have a valid opinion?
The survivors are also heavily nerfed, its not like its just Blight.
Regardless, get better =/= get to comp level. Those are 2 different bars. That's like saying "get some exercise" means "become a professional athlete".
I think you're confusing "get better at the counterplay" and "get to comp level". You don't need to be comp level to compete with the Blights you're facing in pubs. Comp is too far, but you can still be "good" and at that level he's manageable outside of certain add-ons.
If you're matching against good killers who are good Blight you also need to be good at survivor and good at facing Blight to compete. That's not unreasonable. If you're not good at one or the other than IMO the correct advice would be to get better before complaining. Well, if you actually want to be taken seriously at least.
Good survivors who complain about it do have a valid agreed upon opinion: "some of the add-ons are too much" like I said before. It's not a bind at all otherwise the mentioned survivor criticism would have not been brought up and agreed with. I'm not sure where you got "he's not a problem" from when it was stated "his add-ons can be/are dumb". That's a problem right there.
If you want to talk about average survivors you need to use average killers, where Blight doesn't seem to be on the too strong side as far as common sentiment goes. Average skill isn't enough for him to become a big problem. Seems to be a middle to upper middle of the pact killer or so.
If you want to talk about good blights you need to talk about good survivors, where he's agreed on being fine outside of select add-ons.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3579165#Comment_3579165
So when a player loses to Blight, it's a skill issue and they need to git gud.
But when a player actually gets gud, suddenly their skill level is high enough that their Blight matches are irrelevant to the conversation?
How convenient that no matter what players do, there's always a reason for why Blight can't possibly be the problem.
I don't think that's what's being said.
Per their back and forth, Blight both slaps and gets slapped in comp, so by that example they would be balanced I suppose.
However we really shouldn't be bringing comp into the equation when talking about general game balance. Yeah sure you're not going to become a comp survivor (most likely at least) but you're also not facing comp Blights.
You just need to get better against an average Blight, not a comp one, which is a big difference. Especially with a character who has an above average to high skill curve. They get exponentially worse the closer to average you get. Such as Nurse's notoriously low kill rate despite her potential strength.
If we did go off comp, we'd need massive nerfs to survivors, especially considering the normal game isn't restricting survivor perks like comp does.
That being said, the majority sentiment seems to be that Blight's add-ons can be/are dumb, but the basekit is probably fine.