MrPenguin
MrPenguin
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If by "good" you mean "OP" like old DH, COH, and MFT then hopefully never.
If that's the bar for "good news" then it's too high.
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Because it's been psychological proven to be manipulative to the point big companies will hire psychologist to make sure their FOMO tactics are effective as possible at getting people to buy/grind them.
Outside of that it sucks to not be able to play for whatever reason and have cosmetics locked away just because you actually have a life outside the game. Oh, and new players also get the short stick.
Get the cosmetic if you like it, that should be enough. No need to put a timer on it.
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@MikeStev said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660846#Comment_3660846
That means you have no problem facing nurse and blight in almost every match.
if you forgot, try to remember SBMM when it was first implemented, almost every match sweaty.
If that's the level I'm at that's the level I'm at.
The problem there is that only 2 killers can compete with good players, not that MMR is inherently a problem.
Other killers need to be brought up or both those 2 killers and good survivors be brought down to other killers level.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3657900#Comment_3657900
I’m sure they happen, but I personally never see these situations. They seem really far flung. What I more often encounter is that if one gives survivors even the slightest opportunity to turn a game around, they will pounce on it. Survivors are not merciful toward killer mistakes (nor should they be). But they don’t really give up immediately as much as people claim, either.
Well that's just differences in experience I guess.
I'm glad you don't see it much but I see it all the time. Honestly really annoying to then have to waste time with the rest of the match frequently just waiting for the loss you know is coming because of some self-centered entitled survivor who doesn't like Legion or whoever or went down faster than they would like.
Like I don't care that we lost, I'm bothered they're wasting everyone's time. I came to play the game, not complain and quit because I can't cherry pick my experience. Hard to do the first while others are doing the second.
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@Ariel_Starshine said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658743#Comment_3658743
Because if the killer isn't keeping pressure right or as the other poster said, keeping order, what else is there to do? Like, we only have one objective lol.
Guess I'll just stand around and admire the scenery next match. I'm sure that'll go over quite well. Maybe take a little stroll, take some screenshots.
Like said above it's not about blaming the survivors, but that doesn't change the reason.
"Killers tunnel because gens fly and it's the strongest plan. They don't have the time and luxury to not tunnel from the start and not risk losing by default."
"There's nothing else for survivors to do, gens will always fly"
"So killers will always tunnel"
Assuming both sides actually seriously care about winning and taking their best shot to do so. It's not the players, it's the game. On both sides.
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@Paternalpark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658486#Comment_3658486
Why is it good that a perk is a hindrance?
I think the point was that it's better than having an OP meta warping perk that would end up being really unhealthy for the game. Like original CoH, Overbrine, and such were.
Considering it's tied to gen progress, it has to be balanced very carefully.
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Yes, but imo that's more because the players are generally more knowledgeable on what the good strategies are (tunneling and split cranking gens) and so more players are doing them. As well as the general efficiency of preforming these strategies also going up.
Afaik there hasn't really been a meta where these were not the best thing to do. The most we got was that but with a side of "slow down your opponent(s) progress so much they can't do their strat effectively" with things like OG DS and Dead Hard, 3 gen Overbrine, and the CoH heal meta amongst others. In all of those the game was miserable for whichever side was slowed down.
So yeah the games are faster now than before but that's probably better than the games dragging on because one side can get stalled obnoxiously long just to still end up losing.
Getting rid of tunneling and gens racing would basically require a remodel or massive shift in the fundamentals of the game. So basically not happening in the foreseeable future. So as much as we all dislike it, both are probably here to stay.
If part of the problem is games in general are over "too fast" then we could slow both sides down. But survivors don't want more gen time and side objectives are also not in the foreseeable future as far as the devs have told us. So I don't know what else to say there.
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@SuperCop said:
That makes no sense since it's literally worse for the killer if the team gangs up on 1 gen. If you split up on gens they go slower. Splitting up would be more comparable to spreading hooks.
And complaining about gens is like complaining about hooks, which is clearly not what I'm complaining about. It's repeatedly hooking one survivor right off the hook. Tunneling. Not the same as chasing/hooking whatever survivor you see.
No it's not worse for the killer.
Yes that 1 gen will get completed faster, but in terms of the entire game and all 5 gens, you will go a lot slower due to the speed penalty as well as letting the killer pressure all 4 of the survivors if they approach the gen instead of just 1. As killer that gives you the most time possible to kill everyone, which is exactly what the killer wants.
This is very common knowledge which is why in most games survivors split up on gens.
Considering you didn't know that, your either you're very new and/or in the dark on how the game works. Either way this thread makes a lot more sense. Considering the low post amount I'm assuming it's "very new".
And yes, chasing the survivor right off hook is still the best way to win as killer. You do not want to give them time to heal and you already know where they are.
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@SuperCop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658981#Comment_3658981
I would literally rather be hit on hook repeatedly than me or someone else be targeted and eliminated from the start of the match.
There's no excuse for tunneling at 5 gens. If you have to stoop that low to "win" as killer, then you're not good.
Well it's not just about your feelings, there's a whole other player on the enemy team who also wants to win.
There is an excuse: wanting to win and taking your best shot.
If using your best strategy makes you "not good" then splitting gens also makes you "not good" as survivor and trash at the game. Then both sides can be trash for using the most common and strongest playstyle.
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@SuperCop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658965#Comment_3658965
You know very well it isn't simply losing. It's being deliberately targeted and it doesn't matter if you communicate or not. There are plenty other games where griefing occurs without communication even happening between the 2 but it's obvious when it happens. Specifically when someone targets you.
It's a dirty move to tunnel like that early on in the match to just eliminate someone quickly for EZ, lazy win at the expense of another person.
Of course you're being deliberately targeted, that's the best way to win.
What's better for the killer a 3v1 or a 4v1?
Chasing a full health survivor or an injured one?
Getting someone to death hook and then dead or getting a 2nd person to 2nd hook and then a third?
It cannot be obvious griefing when it's also the best way to win the game. You have absolutely no way to know if the killer is doing it just because they want to win or to be "toxic" unless they tell you. There's plenty of things that are obviously toxic like hook hitting, T-bagging, gate stalling and ect. because they have absolutely zero competitive advantage. Their sole purpose is to be a donkey to another player.
Tunneling is not one of them.
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@SuperCop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658959#Comment_3658959
Yes, because you're targeting one specific person at the beginning of the match and killing them asap at 5 gens, ruining things for them. It's akin to griefing.
You're not getting "griefed" just because you're losing and you don't like how you're losing.
As long as it remains the best or even a strong strategy, you cannot make that argument unless the killer tells you that they did it intentionally to bother you.
Tunneling needs to be made weak and spreading hooks needs to be made strong. Then the only reason someone would tunnel is because they want to bother you.
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@SuperCop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658926#Comment_3658926
I just got a 3k with Knight, a killer I barely know how to use and let 4th survivor get hatch and I did not have to camp or tunnel in order to do so.
I have already agreed gen boosts are an issue, but make no mistake tunneling someone out quickly at 5 gens is worse than being genrushed as a killer cause at least you get to play longer as killer, and your BP doesn't suffer like a survivor's does from early tunneling.
I also think killer players are often way too obsessed with getting a full 4k. Especially since the average intended by developers is 2k.
Sure its possible to win without tunneling.
Especially if that's how you normally play so your MMR is at the level where you can do so and stand a chance. As I am.
That doesn't change anything I said.
If you want your best shot at winning, be it 3K or 4K, you tunnel. That's it, that's the whole reason. Unless something changes that killers will tunnel and that should be expected.
@SuperCop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3658926#Comment_3658926
Also, I'm not asking killers to stop, they won't. I'm asking the devs to fix it. Kinda why I'm posting here.
You're asking for punishment, not for spreading hooks to be made the better and strong option. 2 different things.
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We could also just have the survivors just bleed out instantly once everyone is down and no one has a perk to get up.
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"Stop trying to win!"
Unfortunately tunneling is the strongest strategy so it should be expected that the players will do it.
I understand it sucks, I understand it's not fun, but it's also the killers best shot at winning.
Are we also going to punish survivors for splitting on gens? Since that's also their best strategy? Idk about you but that sounds silly to me to punish players for using the strongest playstyle they have access to.
You shouldn't be asking killers to stop tunneling you should be asking the devs to make the strongest strategy spreading hooks instead. Because right now it's not.
Then we can punish tunneling if it's still necessary to do so.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3656972#Comment_3656972
The only time I’ve ever seen survivors make a comeback was when I played killer and allowed it. I killed off one player early and saw the other three struggling. I felt guilty, so I basically meme’d so they stood a chance. I allowed them finish three gens so the game at least felt more balanced for them. But in the end I still won with a 4K. 🤷🏽♀️ By themselves survivors don’t recover from a rough start the way killers do.
Again, yes there are times when the games basically over like someone dead at 5 gens with little progress, but there's also plenty of times where the game is well within winnable and survivors just nope out.
Like 1-2 hooks and 3 gens are about to pop or only 1 gen is left.
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This is the same in every team based game.
You cannot fix "bad teammates". That's the chance you always take queuing solo, your team not being on the same page as you and vice versa.
You cannot fix people thinking they're not one of these "bad teammates" and it's simply everyone else. People don't like to see themselves as needing to improve. The randoms and the killer are easy scapegoats. The vast majority of the players you're describing also think the team is the problem not them.
You could improve MMR sure, but the other problems will still be there. As shown in other team based games with better MMR.
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@Withered8 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3653811#Comment_3653811
3 gen changes were better for killer 99% of the time unless your gameplan as killer is to just infinitely kick gens?
You listed 2 POTENTIAL changes that could be good for survivor. Would you like me to list the amount of changes good for killers recently? I fear that might be a neverending list.
Whether it's better for killers in general or not is still being debated. But the point was the change was made for survivors. Killers got something in return because they kind of needed to sure, but it was made for survivors. Mangled nerf was also for survivors.
The devs don't "not care about survivors" otherwise that would not have even happened nor would the future potential benefits even be planned. FTP+BU is also still running around and they just announced changes for Wicked on the PTB also for survivors. STBFL also got nerfed recently, Pig got changed to get away from her unfun for survivors gameplay and there's more but you can just go look at the patch notes yourself if you want a full list.
Killers have been getting a bit more lately, survivors have been getting more for years and years until recently. Point being, the devs aren't ignoring survivors or killers for that matter.
One side will usually get a bit more, it's not going to be 50/50 every single patch or even most of them.
Saying the devs don't care about or hate survivors while they're actively doing things for survivors is just not correct unless you're choosing to ignore their work.
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Possible? Eh if you're Nurse yeah. Probably even Blight if you're cracked.
Others? No.
In the vast majority of cases at least. The survivors can always have a bad game even in top MMR. But part of what makes them good is that happens very little.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3656972#Comment_3656972
How many times in your DBD years of playing, able to complete 3-4 remaining Gens after a teammate is death, or killers having 6 hooks and 1 Gen done?
Is the number at least 50%? For me, its not even 5%.
You dont work a job that having 5% chance of getting paid. Survivors stop doing Gens if the chance to complete 5 Gens is 5%.
There are 2 cases.
- Survivors quit match when down early, playing against killers they dont like.
- Survivors quit match when they have no chance to power Gates.
Assume you're okay with survivors hook suicide / DC in the second case. But not with the first one.
To my pov playing killer, most of the time its toxic survivors fail to "toxic" me, they DC. Which those matches kill count do not affect the kill rate. Survivors suicide on first hook early game happen less me. Could be equal to that teammate getting tunneled at 5 Gens then DC and get 3 kills after that not counted to the kill rate.
Well like I said the match is basically over in those cases. But no one has a problem with those and it wouldn't be seen as a big problem were that all that were happening most of the time.
But its not. More often than not people just want to get out the match for whatever reason they choose. I do have killer game where survivors fail to "toxic me" as you put it. Yeah sometimes they DC, but more often they'll just self sacrifice to avoid the DC penalty.
If a survivor is DCing a ton, they will get penalties and eventually have a very long time out where they can't play. But the survivors who self sacrifice do not and they are free to do it over and over and over.
More people self sacrifice because they know it gets around the penalties and they are also able to do it back to back to back. There's no way these things are equal. Self sacrificing is definitely more impactful than DC's can ever hope to be in the current iteration.
I'm happy that's not your experience, but afaik it is for most.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3656723#Comment_3656723
Everything have gray zones, suicide on first hook when down early is stupid.
But I dont blame teammates suicide on hook if killers get 5-6 hooks or 1 death and only 1-2 Gens done. Killer already win at that point, Gens would never be done, I will just die and go next for my last teammate to get hatch. These cases happen far alot of times, is what Im talking about.
So we should look into "I'm losing so I'm leaving"?
What is there to look into there? Survivors don't like losing or attempting to make a comeback?
Yeah at a certain point the games basically lost. But that's not what's being talked about when we're talking about "the self sacrifice problem" running rampant atm. That's not what's happening most of the time nor do most people have a problem with it in those cases.
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@fluffyloki25 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/405749/have-bhvr-devs-ruined-dbd-for-survivors
I am a survivor main that consistently ends up in Iri rank, I have quite a few hours in the (2k ish) and I've had to take a step back from the game. I normally play by myself and I am tired of being beaten into the ground. I currently play more Overwatch than DBD, seriously.
Not sure if you're aware but rank/grade doesn't really indicate anything besides you played a lot that month.
For matchmaking purposes you could be with the baby players while iri or be with the top while ash or brown because you didn't play much that particular month.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3656015#Comment_3656015
Look into the reasons why they give up.
Yeah we should definitely look into the problem of "I got downed earlier than I liked". Oh, what about "I don't understand this killer and I don't want to learn how to play against them so I'll just give up". Maybe "my team isn't playing how I like, good luck everyone else".
We know the main reasons why they give up. It's childish and entitled in the majority of cases. You also can't "fix" a mindset, the survivors need to do that themselves.
Giving up just because things didn't go your way is already kinda immature, so that's not too surprising that the reasons follow suit.
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@Mandy said:
The intention of the bubble is to obscure various views - not just to let you know when something has been completed.
Why though?
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No, not really in my experience. For reasons others have already stated.
BHVR can't fix bad players (teammates) and selfish players.
"Got a killer I don't like? I got downed quickly? Well I'm gonna self sacrifice, good luck everybody else!" happens way too often.
Survivors are messing it up for other survivors. Those asking for BHVR to "fix it" are basically asking "change everything the killer players have that survivors find as an inconvenience because otherwise they're gonna refuse to play the match normally."
It's a player mindset problem not a balance one, and the only people who can fix that is survivors themselves. Idk about others but I don't think that's happening.
They can maybe do some QOL but that's not going to change the core of the problem.
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@appleas said:
Killer has to be slightly better or else people won't play the role.
Remember pre 6.1.0 in early 2022 where Survivor Queue times was 10 minutes? Devs don't want that to happen again.
I'm not even sure if the DBD population is large enough that players could get games quickly without having too much of a skill level gap at this point in time.
I remember survivor ques being 20+ minuets. I could legit watch an entire episode of a show and the que would still be going lol.
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3 gen changes after survivors were complaining about it.
Mangled getting nerfed.
DS on the roadmap for buffs after survivors have been askign about it.
UW on the nerfing block despite not even being in the top 10 perks after survivors complaining about it.
"Devs don't care about survivors"
Sure.
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Considering they want the escape rate to be where its currently at for solo, they most likely don't need buffs.
QOL changes would be welcome however.
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As long as it's not Spirit, Billy, or Myers I'm fine.
Some killers might be a little boring like Freddy, but those 3 are the only ones that makes me not even want to play the game.
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Not with maps as unbalanced as they are.
Maybe they should flip the script and make them reduce your odds of going to a particular realm. But then survivors have 4x the amount which indirectly boost their chances for a survivor favored map way more than the killer ever could. So it'd kind of be the same problem. Would still be better than now though.
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@LeFennecFox said:
It's the other way around solo queue should be brought up to swf level
It already pretty much is outside of high MMR.
At least as far as we can tell with the data we have access to.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652224#Comment_3652224
Thats my point you are saying survivors are.... dying to bad killers. At high rates no less, so they are under performing.
Personally I am not sold on Freddy, Pig, or Dredge being bad killers. Never seen a streak of games where they just are memes that everyone makes them out to be, but that's besides the point.
If survivors are dying less to the best killer in the game, the majority of killers that play the game aren't as good as they think they are.
We would see nurse much higher, if not the highest. Not one of the lowest twice in a row now.
Ah ok. It just seemed to me like you were singling out the killer side as bad when both sides aren't nearly as good as they think they are.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3652199#Comment_3652199
If people are dying to "bad killers" at a high rate but not the most broken killer in the game, its kind of telling where the majority of killers sit in terms of skill expression.
We would see a mass amount of nurses if this wasn't the case, and her kill rate wouldn't be one of the lowest twice in a row now. Saying she is "hard to play" is really just a skill issue and proving my point. "Hard to play" is only a half truth for her, your first 10 or so prestige might be hard to play, after that she is easier than every other killer in the game (because of what she can do). You get the opposite effect with other killers they become more hard to play earlier because you can't do what nurse can do.
So you can call those killers bad, but if those killers are so bad then the best killer shouldn't be under performing them. It means that the majority of the killers that play the game are just as eye opening as everyone who talks about survivors that play this game.
I bring up SM because there are similar attitudes of giving up versus nurse. But as we can see, nowhere near her kill rate, in fact the opposite.
I'm sorry but, people dying to bad killers says more about the survivors than the killers. A good killer on a bad character will still lose to good survivors.
People not winning with a good character speaks to the killer player yeah that I can agree with.
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If SM is anything to go off, probably survivors just "going next" and giving up on hook because he's "boring".
If the other killers in the top are anything to go off off, its because he preys on survivors not knowing how to counterplay him and not bothering to learn.
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@ChuckingWong said:
Knowing just how broken Nurse is and .... seeing SM's kill rate....
I really dont want to be mean, but it says A LOT about the majority of the killer player base. Her kill rate isnt just average.... its one of the lowest as well. And its been that way twice for stats.
Eye opening
I mean, the survivor base is also losing a ton to Pig, Sadako, and Dredge.
The killers known to prey on survivors being bad are top kill rates.
I think that is "eye opening" for the majority of survivor players.
Also I get your idea with Nurse, but why SM? She's easy to play and not particularly strong. Just curious.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651288#Comment_3651288
BHVR staff doesn't work on weekends, fyi.
But if I had to guess, I'd say they are counted as escapes.
It doesn't count for MMR, it wouldn't be surprising if it doesn't count here as well. It would be nice to know for sure if they ever get around to answering it.
Although my guess is also that it does.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3651043#Comment_3651043
I don’t disagree with you in a large majority of this.
Idk though solo is pretty rough the lions share of the time, experiences may vary based on other variables. Which we can get into if you want. I imagine people that haven’t been playing for years and learned a large majority of the rosters counters, or how to counter certain tactics especially are not having a good time if their goal is to survive the match. So unless a bunch of ppl are lying about tunneling being the only viable option to get that 3k-4k consistently, tunneling being a doom for the entire team basically, and the sheer amount of people that complain about it, plus mix that with needing everyone on the team to pull their weight in a normal match against a killer that knows how to pressure, plus having in game knowledge, I’d say they aren’t lying about not having a good time considering a very large amount of the player base isn’t an 8k hour streamer or someone that exclusively plays this game for hours on end and learns(no shade to them, I appreciate them) just saying the experience levels are going to be night and day and therefore experiences are going to be drastically different.
Individual experiences may vary sure, but for the overall game this seem to be the general state of things. As far as I can infer at least.
I think solo just feels worse than it actually is for many and it's easy to blame solo que strangers or the killer than look at yourself for things not going well. That's true of every team based game I ever played, "blame the randoms" is the go to for most players.
The same average survivors who are giving Pig, Freddy, and Dredge top 10 kill rates are also the ones giving solo que the goal survival rate. It's not 8K hour players who are disgusting at the game and know every counter and every loop like the back of their hand, it's the average low skill Andys. They're the same players giving solo and SWF near identical rates.
No offense intended to anyone, but some of these claims made by some (or many) vocal members have to be either large over exaggerations (intentional or not) or just a big case of "skill issue". As much as I don't like throwing that term out.
You can't have supposedly basically every killer tunnel (a very common claim), have that be OP and "dooming the entire team", yet still have the current balance goal survival rate.
Killers in general can't be viable without tunneling when supposedly with almost every killer tunneling they are still only around balanced level, averaging a little under. Either killers aren't tunneling much or tunneling isn't OP if they are.
Solo can't be super weak and almost impossible to escape in and SWF hugely advantageous by comparison, when both their escape rates are only ~2.5% apart and at goal. Unless you're talking about high level play where SWF is actually way stronger but solo is still fine. But most players aren't there.
As far as I can tell at least, these things are non-compatible. Even more so if the kill rates are actually inflated.
That said, solo feeling like trash is still a problem. But if the problem is the players themselves and their mindset I don't know how much we can do to change that.
If the problem is just that too many survivors are bad at the game, you can't really fix that either.
Tunneling feels bad to most to be on the receiving end of, that's a problem we can maybe actually do something significant about. But that's a whole different conversation about majorly changing the game, not just stats and what we might be able to infer from them.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650902#Comment_3650902
The amount of times I see someone sending themselves through hookstages probably is equal to the number of times I see the killer give up their guaranteed 4k for a hatch for the last survivor.
In my experience the experience between them suiciding on hook, and the killer tunneling out early on is both equally miserable and has the exact same outcome(just my teammate was the real killer this time). So like from a player perspective nothing new really as far as outcome being in a 3v1 early on. From a statistic perspective yeah that skews data, I’m not saying it doesn’t.
why does it matter what happens more the killer meme,survivors meme, suicides, or intentional throws on both sides, or the killer giving mercy outs? It all skews data from legit representation. I can also say that killers “tunneling” also inflates kill rates and is harmful bc they wouldn’t get the buffs they actually need if they used other tactics(ie pressuring survivors outside of the hooked survivor areas) so that they can be genuinely looked at for overall performance. There’s a lot of variables to consider is all I’m saying.
TBF I also don’t think they should consider any data off new killers within the first 90 days bc ppl don’t know how to play them, and ppl don’t know how to counter them. So any feedback within the first 90 days should be taken with a grain of salt.
While I agree that tunneling is probably preventing other strats from getting stronger, the difference there is that tunneling is fully intended and allowed by the Devs and you're still trying to win/participate in the match.
I don't think giving up at first down because you got Skull merchant, got the Saloon map, or whatever other bad vibes fits into the same criteria.
Not saying I agree with that decision completely, but I'm not the one making the rules.
From what I've seen and seen others say, for the majority of players survivors sacrifice themselves frequently enough to be a concern and killers giving mercy escapes are a rarity. Especially if it's anything more than hatch.
Which if that's the majority that means the kill rates would be a lot more inflated than the escape rates could be. In comparison to a normal played out match at least. Which would mean in normal games survivors have a higher than intended escape rate a.k.a. are stronger than they should be. At least going off of this.
Could the survivor voices of the community be massively over exaggerating? Yeah. They also were saying solo is incredibly weak and almost impossible to escape in yet here we are with it pretty much at the goal escape rate.
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@RakimSockem said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650394#Comment_3650394
We can just agree to disagree fundamentally on that because I'm unsure who decided that 75%/3k is the criteria for a win but I disagree. A 2k that ended with 7-9 hooks is still a win and a close game in my books but that's where I'm sure we just disagree on mindsets.
And with the way I play survivor, especially against a really strong killer, if I'm able to make a play that allows even 1 person to escape because I kept the killer occupied long enough or took them far away enough for a teammate to complete an objective, that's a "win" in my book. But again, that's just a mindset thing and I can see your definition of winning is different from mine.
My whole point was that it seemed like a silly argument to say that one side of an asymmetrical game should be this monumental challenge but for some reason, not want the other side to be???? That was my confusion
The devs decided that a 3-4K is a win for the killer. A 2K is a tie and anything less is a loss.
That's the criteria they outlined when they released the MMR system. The number of hooks isn't important, the number of kills are.
Just for more info on the survivor side it only cares if specifically you escape, nothing about your team.
Hatch is considered a null entry. Not a win or loss just... Hatch I guess lol.
Just answering your question, not taking a stance. I think hooks should be factored in. But rn they're not.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650777#Comment_3650777
Do you count all cases, or just ones near the start of the game? What about when all survivors are slugged? Does self-sacrificing as the penultimate survivor to let the 4th survivor get hatch count?
I said more accurate not perfect. Can't make the perfect system, that doesn't mean don't make a better one.
Also if all the survivors are slugged, that's still the killer getting 4 kills. Why would you exempt those?
We're talking about self sacrificing that undermines the match. If you're the 2nd to last survivor the match is already over, so no those would be counted normally.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650770#Comment_3650770
Some killers only let one survivor go, some let them all go.
Some self-sacrifices doom the other survivors, but they can also be the 3rd survivor letting the 4th get hatch.
I'm not going to try and argue what is more likely than the other as it's impossible to say. But in both cases, it is impossible to discern where these have occurred without watching video footage of every single game ever played.
You could track escape attempts and not attempting 2nd stage struggle at 4-5 gens. Assuming they have the tools to do so.
It doesn't really seem that hard.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650761#Comment_3650761
- You can't determine who was a 'self-sacrifice' and who was a legit sacrifice.
- These are likely balanced out by games where killers let survivors go, out of pity or to lower their MMR. Admittedly you can't say that this occurs at the same rate, but both happen and both are relatively common. I for example regularly let the last survivor get hatch even if I could have caught them if I'd tried harder, because I'm usually content with a 3K.
@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650761#Comment_3650761
Only if you exempt the matches where killers are memeing or purposely letting everyone go, and all the numerous matches where they willing let someone go. Tbh it probably balances itself out when I really think about the throwing on both sides.
1 survivor self sacrificing ends up in the other 3 also being doomed causing collateral kills.
A killer letting someone go is only 1 escape. Assuming hatch escapes count.
Survivors self sacrifice a lot more than killers let someone go afaik.
I don't see it evening out, the kill rates would still be inflated.
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Wouldn't these kill rates be inflated due to the large amount of self sacrificing going on in the game i.e. Skull Merchant?
It'd be a lot more accurate to exempt those matches as you do the DC matches since both are effectively the same in terms of outcome.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650679#Comment_3650679
Yes, if they want the game for the average Survivor to be unpleasant, they are doing a bang-up job of that.
Well the "average survivor" is garbage skill wise. That's why killers like Sadako and Pinhead, are at the top of the kill rates despite us knowing they're bad. But they prey on survivors being bad.
Getting them to a 50% escape rate would be horrible for balance once you have players who actually have some braincells in the match.
I don't think we should balance around players who die to Sadako because they don't know how she works and lose to Pig and Dredge a ton.
Not to mention the large amount of self sacrifice currently in the game being counted as kills and causing more collateral kills as well. So the kill rates are probably inflated a fair amount i.e. Dull Merchant.
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@D0NN1ED4RK0 said:
Damn, so even 4 man SWF matches are barely reaching that 50% escape rate huh
Well it's not 50% it's 40%. That's what the devs aim for. Good SWF is overperforming by that standard.
The games asym so they don't want a 50/50 they want a 60/40.
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Solo q is stressful for most.
Killer in general is stressful for most.
Most of the killer roster sucks against good players. Fine against the average potato though. Strong even.
Continued poor map balance means you can load in and just lose by default.
So basically unless you're playing with friends, playing killer against potatoes, or enjoy playing the A+ to S killers, the game just isn't fun and/or up to RNG whether you can realistically win, let alone if you actually do. There's nothing big going on to keep players interested either. Just the Billy mafia returning for his buffs and light out.
The game might be better balanced than before, but its still not in great shape. Outside of that there's just user experience problems making the game unfun. We still have problems like: tunneling, camping, gens flying, high self sacrifice rates, dead zones, 17+ pallet average, god structures, Ect.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3650169#Comment_3650169
No? It's an arbitrary metric they decided for themselves. Doesn't make it a good one. Killers winning most of their games because they clicked the button worked in 2016 when the game was still a horror game. People don't approach it that way anymore. This is an increasingly competitive PVP game where one role just loses more because they queued for the wrong role, regardless of personal performance. It's about player agency at a certain point. They're still talking about an imposing killer and power role in these stats. It's hopeless. This is not a horror game after 300 hours, let alone thousands. I'm of the opinion that the target should be closer to 50/50
Well that's great for your opinion but that's not what balanced is in this game according to the people in charge. Goes with the asym nature, the killer is supposed to be a bit stronger. Also idk whose "people"; there's still constant debate over whether the game is a party game or a competitive one and which it should be balanced for afaik.
I'm not personally against a 50/50. That would be a 2K on average iirc. That sounds fine on paper. If you have a good SWF it pretty much is that with 48%. I'm also not against the current 60/40 as it makes sense with the asym nature, as said earlier. I'm not the one you need to convince, the devs are.
I will say though, if we get solo to a 50% survival rate I'm concerned about how OP SWF would become due to those changes.
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So basically:
All the high KR killers prey on survivors being bad lol. So the large majority of survivors are bad.
Solo is apparently fine balance wise. 40% escape rate is the goal for those out the know.
SWF is too strong with good players.
People really don't like SM and self sacrifice a lot.
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@Ghoste said:
39% solo escape rate.. This is fine :")
Considering that's pretty much what the devs want (40%), yes it is.
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"But i just don't think it's good idea to make killers power role without nerfing tunnelling and proxy camp to ground"
I really wish they would. It'd be better for both sides. Killers are still as strong or stronger and survivors get a more fun gameplay experience (hopefully).
Maybe a little less killers would tunnel if killer was the "power role", but definitely not he majority, and it'd probably end up making tunnel/camp stronger as a byproduct as well. So I agree it's not the best idea until we address the tunnel issue.
The main reason people tunnel and camp (imo) is because it's considered the strongest strat(s). Without addressing that I don't see it changing in a significant way. As a bonus, it's also the easiest to pull off. Other playstyles require a lot more work/skill and will probably end up with a weaker effect.
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@aerie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3648428#Comment_3648428
no, i genuinely feel if someone admits they have to slug as killer to get a 4k it's a skill issue. i don't care about people who say "oh hatch is rng reliant and not getting a 4k for my challenge kinda sucks so i'd rather slug to guarantee it" those people are just regular players and i don't mind those people.
people who spread misinformation (you HAVE to slug to get a 4k because of hatch) have a skill issue. if these people had gotten a 4k without hatch escape they would know hatch escaping or not hatch escaping as last survivor is just up to luck. in order to have the opinion that you have to slug to get a 4k, you have to have never gotten a 4k before without slugging. which, in my humble opinion, is an immense skill issue.
Fair enough.