Mister_Holdout
Mister_Holdout
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- Mister_Holdout
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Comments
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It means the devs like them.
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You got that right.
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As long as the Doctor is wearing this skin, survivors cannot use pallets lol.
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They're both cheesy. Get rid of them.
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There is a penalty. If the killer is camping then the other survivors can do gens.
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Pretty good job so far.
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I was just about ready to give up hope after the Ruin nerf. But now the devs have done another 180.
Guess we'll have to see how things go.
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People on each side have decent arguments.
I think the devs will just have to nerf survivors as a whole.
For example, updating all the maps to be more killer friendly is a nerf to all survivors.
At this point, it might be the best killer mains can hope for.
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Seems to me most people here agree the grind is too much.
Wonder if the devs will listen.
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If they have a lot of experience then yes, SWF can be very unpleasant.
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I want a remake for Paper Mario The Thousand Year Door.
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My solo games have been really good so far.
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At this point, it's probably best for the devs to rework all the maps and make them more fair to killers. Let's see how that shakes things up.
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@gantes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1216557#Comment_1216557
Even if solo survivors are the majority of the playerbase, unless you have some genius 300iq plan, nerfing SWF involves nerfing survivor in general to some degree, and no shape of survivor gameplay besides SWF needs nerfs, especially after the next patch rolls in. So my observation wasn't wrong, you just misinterpreted it.
Lol, survivors still need more nerfs because this update won't magically fix everything. DbD has serious structural problems.
And I'm not sure how you think nerfing SWF hurts solo players. They aren't the ones who will be getting the penalty.
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@gantes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1216500#Comment_1216500
You can nerf a specific character without screwing over the entire playerbase of that role. You cannot nerf SWF without touching solo survivor, at all ranks mind you. Considering that for new players the game already is killer sided (the more you learn about the game, the more survivors have an edge, but no one knows how to run anything killers are stronger) it's very delicate, very hard and if you come in here asking for SWF to be nerfed you better come with a plan ready to do that without screwing over the majority of the survivor playerbase.
Your observation is wrong. Solo survivors are the majority of the survivor player base. Nerfs to SWF wouldn't hurt them (because they play alone anyway).
The other guy I was talking to did raise a good point. A nerf to SWF would hurt the teams that don't use voice comms. That is an obstacle. I'm sure the devs can figure out something though.
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@AsePlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1216529#Comment_1216529
I'm not for punishing players who are doing nothing that warrants it. That's a flawed system.
Also, a majority of SWF that play this game are probably just talking to their friends about their day while playing DbD, not being ultra strategists. There's probably less than 1% that need this change, so we'd be affecting the other 99% of SWF. I'll pass.
You actually had a good argument when you said the penalty would hurt the SWF teams that don't use voice communication.
But then you ruined it by saying SWF teams are mostly just chatting anyway. You know that isn't the case. Those teams are talking about the killer.
In a game like DbD, survivors having voice comms is a balance issue. It leads to very unpleasant matches for killers. It's up to the devs to figure out a compromise.
But let me stress, you made a good point. Killers might just have to settle with the devs nerfing survivors as a whole.
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Yep, GF can be a pain sometimes.
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@AsePlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1216516#Comment_1216516
It's unreasonable to assume everyone on SWF is even using voice communication.
Then do we let people who use voice communication get a free pass?
Most people who don't use comms are teaming with other skilled players anyway. I doubt the penalty would affect them that much.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1216509#Comment_1216509
Aaaaaaaannd when you stand in front of the hook rev'ing your chainsaw making it impossible to save, that is also abuse.
Again what is your point? Killers "abuse" mechanics as much as survivors do. If you can't admit that then I don't know what else to tell you.
If the devs want to rework LF, then that's fine.
But last time I checked survivors abusing god windows is a MUCH bigger issue than LF face camping.
Besides, if a LF is face camping then in all likelihood he got beat so badly by the survivors that camping was his only option (in his mind).
So no, killers don't abuse nearly as much as survivors do. Killers definitely need their own balance updates, but let's not pretend that survivors haven't been catered to for four years now.
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@AsePlayer said:
Another "let's kill the game" post. Truly epic
How would imposing a repair and healing speed penalty on SWF teams kill the game?
Voice communication in a game like DbD is a huge advantage. It takes away much uncertainty and allows survivors to be even more efficient. Is it so unreasonable to ask these players to accept a penalty considering they get to use the power of voice communication?
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1216127#Comment_1216127
If someone uses DS to make a play that's a smart move, not abuse. You could argue that a killer with NOED makes "reckless plays" when they ignore gens and chase 1 person all game.
Most killers have was to deal with most loops in the game. God loops are getting changed, so that is completely irrelevant at this point. But even so it's not "abuse" it's making a smart play.
Again abuse is something reserved for literal cheating, like using a glitch, which both sides are guilty of.
Abuse can mean different things.
Survivors who use unfair mechanics or tactics against another player is abuse. That said, I don't blame the player, I blame the devs.
When you use a god loop you're abusing the devs' terrible map design. Some survivors even know they are abusing map design. I've heard them say so during game play.
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@LetsPlayTogether said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1216107#Comment_1216107
This "killers need to 4k at all times"-bias?
Where did you even get that idea from lol?
Because I criticized SWF as a legitimate balance issue?
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@gantes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1216107#Comment_1216107
It's almost like normalizing two outliers is a lot more realistic than butchering the game for half of your playerbase.
Oh, so it's okay to leave SWF the way it is because there are a lot of players that use the feature?
That's basically like saying "SWF is a balance issue, but we're going leave it be because any nerfs would inconvenience a large number of players"
I mean, who cares about the killers who have to put up with it, am i right?
Also, I thought most survivors played solo. Wouldn't that mean it hurts less people than you think?
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I know what the devs have said about SWF lol.
And if you noticed, he only provided an explanation as to why SWF is staying. He didn't explain why SWF doesn't need a nerf.
If you read my comment, my personal opinion is that SWF shouldn't be in the game. But since the devs want it to stay, they have to nerf SWF in some way.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1214322#Comment_1214322
"There's plenty of documented evidence out there of survivors abusing mechanics and tactics."
And there is a ton of evidence out there of killers "abusing" mechanics and tactics. What is your point?
"Abuse" is a very strong term. I won't disagree that the game leans towards survivors, but they definitely aren't abusing the game as you put it. Again killers "abuse" tactics like tunneling and camping, or moris. But you (and I) wouldn't actually call that abuse. It's called the meta game and it exists in literally EVERY game ever made.
The only time someone "abuses" the game is when they use a glitch, which both sides have had so again it's not specific to survivors.
Survivors have options to counter tunneling and camping. Those tactics don't work so well against competent survivors.
And for the record, I don't like moris. I think they should go (just like keys).
But what do you call it when a survivor with thousands of hours uses a god loop to end a chase? Or, a survivor that uses their DS protection to make reckless plays? That's called abuse (whether it be intentional or unintentional).
Don't even get me started on SWF.
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It amazes me that people think voice comms belong in a game like DbD.
What's even more amazing is that people think SWF teams do not need any balance changes to offset the increased coordination.
Survivors had no problem complaining about Nurse and Spirit being too strong.
But when killers ask for something to be done about SWF we get called entitled.
I wonder if the devs will eventually recognize this bias in the community?
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@Mikey4Hire said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1215148#Comment_1215148
Your putting too much faith in swf.
Most swf die during matches and you still want to nerf them? Really?
They cant nerf swf without nerfing solo too.
People will just ready up at the same time and try to get in the same lobby as their friends to avoid the penalties.
If you want people to suffer consequences for having fun then that's on you, I'm gonna say this one last time: Not all swf is wanting to get a easy escape or bully the killer. All we want to do is have fun during our matches without getting penalized for it.
There's no point in continuing this conversation.
I'm not putting too much faith in SWF.
The fact is SWF gets coordination they really shouldn't have. And since BHVR wants comms to stay, they need to penalize SWF in some way. That penalization won't affect solo players. The nerf will close the gap between solo and SWF players.
You act like SWF teams are so innocent. While some of them are chill, most of them will play very sweaty if push comes to shove. It's not fun to play against as killer (because these teams pull out all the dirty tricks whereas you don't see it as much with solos).
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@Mikey4Hire said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1214668#Comment_1214668
Your putting words in my mouth.
It's not fair, unless killers will get a nerf aswell. Nerfing swf to the ground then killers should be nerfed when going up against a swf too. If you haven't noticed most swf dies against killers. You going on about swf is toxic and should be nerfed meanwhile most people in a swf die.
You're not understanding what I'm saying.
Solo survivors can beat most killer setups (if they're skilled enough).
SWF gives survivors more coordination than they should have.
You can't seriously think it's okay for survivors to know the killer's location at all times? At the very least, survivors should receive repair and healing speed penalties in exchange for this extra information.
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@SpaceCoconut said:
They won't because money.
Here's your answer OP.
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Nurse, Billy, Huntress, and Deathslinger are the hardest killers to play.
Oni is challenging too because his demon strike requires some mechanical skill to land against survivors that 360.
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@Mikey4Hire said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1214288#Comment_1214288
Many people find swf because we can actually mess around and have fun playing around in matches meanwhile in solo you ruin other people's games by messing around.
They can't ban swf or coms so they would have to balance the game around swf or buff solo players.
Again, bhvr can't do anything about that because it's not their choice to get rid of coms.
Killers have fun at the survivors expense all the time but when survivors do it, it automatically makes it wrong?
Mess around as in torment the killer? Because I've seen some teams do that. Not all, but some.
Again, survivors can keep their voice comms. But there will have to be a trade-off. You can't give players voice communication in a game like DbD and not offset their increased coordination with some type of nerf.
You want to play with friends and call out plays to each other? Fine, but you'll repair and heal slower. Seems fair to me.
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@SoylentPixie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1214329#Comment_1214329
Yes, because using the maps as they were designed, by devs, not survivors, is totally 'abuse'.
I'll make it very clear this time. I have NO issues with the new map changes, i hope they do improve the game and help simmer down some of this absurd toxicity and victim complex that seems to surround both sides.
My issue is the fact that ANY player will use what its most effective within the games design. It's clear the devs intended for all those looping areas to be there, that's why it has taken so long to fix, because nobody wanted to admit they might have tipped the balance too far, hence the bandaid fixes. I don't debate whether they needed to be fixed, with so much outcry it was clear what needed to be done. I take exception to the fact that people call anything, even intended game design, as abuse. That goes for perks, addons, powers, items and tactics too.
Did it need to be changed, yes. Were the people playing on the old design before that abusing map design by being halfway decent at looping? No, because the DEVS designed it, the DEVS left it in the game and that isn't a fact that can be washed away. Every player uses any means necessary and it isn't abuse to get better and better at one of few countermeasures available. The killers reached their breaking point and the devs eventually listened. Well done. I genuinely hope it helps. But stop calling everything a survivor does as abuse because it's getting silly now.
Actually, it is abuse.
Because many of these survivors have played long enough to know a busted map when they see one.
I've heard twitch streamers basically say "Aww man, I feel bad about using this loop because it's so overpowered. But the killer didn't leave me much choice because they kept chasing me."
These guys know the game is busted lol.
But here's the thing. I don't get mad at the player, I get mad at the devs. Abuse doesn't have to be sinister in nature.
Survivors benefit from broken map design. I don't fault them for using the loops. But I do fault them when they say map design doesn't need to be fixed. If they played killer, they would know these maps are busted. It's that simple.
Also, I won't even get into survivors t-bagging the killer even though they got a really broken map.
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I don't have a go-to killer anymore.
You never know which killer might get nerfed these days.
That said, I'll probably main Deathslinger since I enjoy shooting mechanics.
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@Reborn2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1214329#Comment_1214329
lol against which killers? or that is something you want to hide?
I'm going to save us both some time. If you want to disagree with the veteran players, then that's fine. Go ahead.
Continue believing what you want.
Even if I posted dozens of videos showing survivors abusing map design, it still wouldn't change your mind.
No point in carrying on this conversation any longer.
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I'm not a particularly sweaty killer. I'm just a killer who enjoys the chases.
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@Reborn2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1214304#Comment_1214304
You being too abstract.
How lol?
You can go watch game play footage of survivors abusing map design.
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@SoylentPixie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1213334#Comment_1213334
"How is this not obvious to understand?"
When its one side deciding what are 'issues' or what 'abusing' the game is. That's where it stops being about balance and more about self catering the game to skill levels.
The fact of the matter is, survivors didn't make the game, they didn't make the perks or mechanics and I think it is laughable that people actually think they shouldn't have used them because killers decided they weren't fair. I'm not going to debate as to whether they were indeed fair or not, but i can all but guarantee, that if killer were suddenly turned into a bot position, every single person who complained about perks, looping, gen times and any other imagined slight the survivors have apparently done to the 'oppressed Killers'...would be using the same things they are screaming about now if they had to play survivor.
I have no issues with the new changes, but i have a huge problem with this massive victim complex people have seemed to have gathered around them, and those same people having influence on how their OPPOSING side should play.
I didn't like it when the devs caved and gutted the nurse because survivors whined (I LOVED playing against nurse)
And I don't like it now, where a good percentage of the killer population are acting like utter d***s because they got what they wanted, while simultaneously calling every survivor braindead, abusers of mechanics and taunting. I mean...were your ego's really that lacking over a forum/game?
TL:DR I have no issues with the current changes, but the general perceived 'victim complex' killers have gained, does not give the licence to act like complete jerks. And if you do anything 'because survivors did this' then you are no better.
I don't even know what you're talking about.
Many of the experienced players know this game is unfair to killers. There's plenty of documented evidence out there of survivors abusing mechanics and tactics.
I've been around for years, I've seen it all.
But for the first time, the devs are actually doing something fairly big to help killers. I'm here to make sure the devs continue making positive improvements for the game. The devs have a lot of work in front of them before they fully undo all the damage.
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@Reborn2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1213334#Comment_1213334
Name those core issues and i will disprove that easily. The problem with majority killers is that they dont know how to play simple as that.
You can't disprove the core issues lol. They've been well documented in the community for years now.
But since you asked, I'll name one of the biggest problems. Map design. Survivors are given too much to work with.
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@Mikey4Hire said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1213052#Comment_1213052
Sorry we like to have fun in games? We need to have fun in games or else half of us would have quit the game already. We don't like sweating and tryharding every game so I think we will keep swf, thanks.
I seriously don't understand how people need SWF to have fun. I have played with others before and it just isn't as fun as solo.
SWF removes a lot of the immersion imo. That said, the devs don't have to get rid of SWF. But they do have to balance SWF in some way.
Survivors like to act cute and say "we're just having fun" while totally ignoring the advantage voice communication gives them. Survivors might be having fun, but they're doing so at the killer's expense (unjustifiably so).
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@designator said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1213348#Comment_1213348
Oh ok. So it sounds like it takes skill to get good at survivor? Or do you only lose because survivors are OP and only win because survivors are bad?
Read my earlier comment.
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@designator said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1213043#Comment_1213043
Ok if this game is so survivor sided why do most killers have 75% kill rate? Please no "forum moderator with no formal training in statistics said numbers bad"
That's easy. There are a lot of lousy survivors that muddy the waters.
I remember a week or two ago playing against some red ranks that couldn't even loop. They played like rank 20s and got downed really fast.
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@SoylentPixie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1213285#Comment_1213285
See this is where I hit a brick wall with the killer argument. This statement right here, and it works in reverse when survivors use it against killers, but i mostly see it in killer arguments.
"The game is unfair to killers **when survivors are good**"
So you are saying that players who worked hard to get good at the game...and I'm sorry but that includes using perks/items/offerings as much as a killer depends on theirs....makes it unfair because....they are good at the game?
How is that fair logic that can be reasonably argued?
So the goal is to keep moving the goalposts so that the "Good survivors" aren't winning anymore and you feel better rather than say....killers having difficulties getting better themselves?
Now let me be clear, I very regularly advocate for both sides, I consider other peoples arguments very carefully and I am all for fair play, even if that means drastic changes, like the ones coming, that I will have to adapt to. But i do not get how this type of argument helps killers.
"The survivors are getting too good at the game so we have to change that. What happens if the killers start absolutely dominating, are you seriously going to agree to the same argument if it is in reverse?
I agree balance changes need to be made, but the wording of this statement suggests that even if survivors play their very best, if they play optimally and achieve their goal.....then that isn't fair to the killer. And that's not how games work.
How is this not obvious to understand?
Let me use the word experienced instead of good.
When I say good survivors, I'm referring to survivors who know how to abuse core issues with the game. And that's exactly what the sweatier teams do.
I'm not saying we punish good survivors. There are certain actions that are skillful on their part. The problem is the devs give survivors too much to work with. Survivors can afford to play mind games at various loops because they know there are stronger loops they can rely on if things aren't going their way. And with some maps, the loops are absolutely ridiculous. But you can be sure survivors will take advantage.
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@DWolfAlpha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1213058#Comment_1213058
More likely, if they do cross progression, it'll just update the servers for all consoles you have linked. So you'll just have everything you unlocked.
I've been playing PC for a while now. I'm hoping all the bp I've earned on my Xbox account can be transferred to my PC account. That would be sweet.
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@FearedbytheGods said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1213043#Comment_1213043
Did you look up the words I used? Because you just did it again.
Also I was here since release and if you scroll through this thread you'll see rudimentary examples of my intimate knowledge of changes the game has gone through over time.
Perhaps I should try a different tac:
People will work harder to attempt to disprove a truth, if that truth counters their belief system.
I know what your words mean.
I'm pointing out that my observations are based off years of experience with this game. And it's not just my opinion. Many veteran players agree with me also. We've been discussing the issues plaguing DbD on the forums for a long time now.
And it gets annoying when people try and act like the game doesn't have serious issues. It does. People with legitimate experience will tell you how busted the game is when high skill survivors are involved.
You're free to disagree, but just be aware that the evidence is not on your side.
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@Reborn2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1213045#Comment_1213045
Both dont know. You only showing that you sympatize killers more because they are killers? i guess
No because the game is unfair for killers (when good survivors are involved).
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If they do add that feature, I hope I get all the blood points that I earned on my Xbox account. 1000 hours is a lot of bp.
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@Mikey4Hire said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1212826#Comment_1212826
That's not true, iv seen many killer suggest too over powered stuff and want to ruin the game for everyone involved. Like taking out swf for example, they want swf to be out of the game, leaving people who just like to have fun with friends out of luck and would most likely stop playing.
Killer mains suggest ridiculous ideas too, but at least their intentions are understandable (the game is very unfair to them).
Also, survivors don't need SWF to win or have fun. All they need are decent teammates. SWF totally ruins the immersion of the game.
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@Reborn2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1211484#Comment_1211484
Because those are killer mains additional accounts.
Killer mains are indeed being serious when they ask for secondary objectives which proves how little they know about the game.
Killer mains know a lot more about the game than survivor mains.
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@FearedbytheGods said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1212826#Comment_1212826
Where to start...
- Anecdotal subjective talking points.
- Group think mentality
- Biased tribalistic narrative
- Generalised consensus
Except, I can back up my claims.
- This game has always been survivor-sided (still is).
- I see many survivor mains who try say the game is fair enough as it is (it's not by a long shot).
- Killer mains come up with ridiculous ideas too, but at least their intentions are understandable (because the game is unfair to them).
The point being: DbD has always been survivor-sided. And survivor mains have gotten used to it. So when killer mains (justifiably) want more balance updates that make them stronger, survivor mains act like we are selfish. Since when is wanting a balanced game selfish?
I can make these claims because I've been here for years and gotten to experience everything about this game. Not to mention, the devs have a track record of being very biased. They are starting to change finally (thank god), but we'll see how long that lasts. I'm pretty sure the only reason the devs announced the map reworks is because of the enormous blow-back after the Ruin nerf. After that shameful decision, the devs could no longer pretend like they weren't biased.
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Please, use punctuation when you make forum posts. Run-on sentences are very annoying to read.
Anyway, about your question regarding tunneling. You should know the game is in a very unhealthy state for killers. Map design is abysmal and gen rushing is a legitimate issue. Many killers play scummy out of frustration.
Normally, tunneling and camping doesn't work so well against good survivors. But because there are so many lousy survivors polluting the player pool, tunneling and camping often works.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is the devs have poorly managed this game. So, it should be no surprise that the players are suffering.