Laluzi
Laluzi
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- Laluzi
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I really liked the Greek Legends collection and also the DND collection. And that one rift that had medieval outfits for Claudette and Vittorio. Fantasy-medieval outfits are fun. Meg's new hooded archer skin is a huge W.
Also love skins that turn the killers into proper monsters, like Huntress's were-elk and Artist's fallen angel, fury, and jabberwock skins. Cyberpunk-type skins are pretty cool, too.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3749147#Comment_3749147
You can submit video evidence via support ticket alongside a report, fyi.
So the excuse that players will just find ways to throw the game is a terrible excuse for not removing hook suicides.
Ah, yes, so I need to be running video recording software every time I play DBD when my laptop already burns like the fires of hell playing it, just to be able to police players because BHVR won't implement a means to do it in-house. No thank you.
The report system in this game is broken and apart from chat offenses, actually supplying sufficient evidence requires too much retroactively unattainable third party involvement on the part of players to be reasonable. And without that video evidence, a report is worthless and won't be acted upon. I suppose the solution here is to establish a report system that doesn't rely on third party software and player line of sight to actually be able to address bad behavior in-game, but I've resigned myself to the fact that that's not happening.
I edited it into my post and you likely missed it, but it's worth addressing - removing the ability to suicide on hook removes legitimate plays I can use to help my team or myself and, more importantly, will not stop players from trying to kill themselves. See what happens whenever you rescue a hook suicider before they can miss the second skillcheck. They don't go back to playing; they chase the killer or spam noise notifications or just grief you. How do you intend to deal with that? The problem isn't mechanical, it's with people. You'll delete one mechanic and they'll move to the next, and if you delete that mechanic they'll move to the next, and you end with salted fields for little gain.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3749137#Comment_3749137
Survivors can also lobby dodge and lobby dodging and hook suiciding are two different things as only one of those is quitting mid match.
If you want rage quit matches, you should be punished. Hook suiciding is not a punished especially when you can no longer depip. Hook suicides need to be removed or harsh penalties need to applied to survivors who do hook suicide, because the rest of the teammates don't even get a bot for your rage quit.
It's irrelevant that most of the players are survivors when it comes to reporting people for throwing games and ruining it for the rest of the survivors. Reportable behavior is still reportable.
Again if you want to filter what killers you are willing to play against, that is what custom lobbies are for. If you queue for survivor normally you have to accept that people will play things you don't like. If you cannot then DBD is simply not the right game for you.
You're still missing the point, though. I don't think anyone disagrees that hook suicides should be punished. They ruin the game for everyone. The problem you're avoiding is that it's basically impossible to implement a mechanic that prevents survivors from throwing games, because on paper, the reportable behavior - essentially griefing or quitting, depending on what flavor it takes - is indistinguishable from survivors playing badly. And you can't report being bad.
It's a moot point, because successfully reporting anyone in this game is extremely difficult, but it's a problem that's more involved than simply saying 'this game mechanic needs to be reportable.' Because survivors will then move onto the next action that is not reportable but gets them yeeted from the game immediately.
To a human eye, it's obvious when a player is trying to ragequit versus when it's just a confused newbie, but without match replay to provide that human eye… the data tracking this game currently employs is incapable of making that distinction and thus punishing players for it in a timely fashion (and a fashion that doesn't rely on other players having active video software as they play, and being in a position to record the player trying to get themselves killed.)
If you remove hook suicides, you remove my ability to dip out so that the last player can get hatch or gun for a hail mary 4% in a losing game and you gut luck builds, and you don't actually fix the problem because the players who would have hook suicided to ragequit are now just going to run at the killer or spam noise notifications or just go AFK under the hook.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Meanwhile Nurse is laughing from a distance while SM gets all the heat → oops, no shes next to you now.
Nurse, for her many… many… problems, and the way she breaks DBD's game design over her knee and suplexes it for good measure… is at least engaging to play against.
And when she's not engaging to play against, because the player behind the wheel has spent 2000 hours mastering her and can predict your every futile attempt at freedom before you've even conceived which direction to run… it's over quickly.
Skull Merchant was just a mistake in every measure.
(Though to be perfectly fair, I think her problem at this point is as much reputational as it is mechanical. People don't want to vs Skull Merchant because the people who play her always play an obnoxious zero-fun playstyle, so they DC upon seeing her, and this leads casual killer players to avoid touching her while ragebaiters flock to her for her ability to get survivors to ragequit, and they play zero-fun games, and so on… I suspect she got some of the runoff when facecamping Bubba got nerfed.)
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As a Jane main, I actually really love the skins she's got - Gameplay Expo, Fashion Icon, Summer Starlet, Midnight Encounter, and ofc that amazing Halloween dress she got. There's been a few misses (the nordic fashion one is very… not), but I really liked the Gothic Tales one and overall I think she's eating good. Especially compared to, like, Jonah and Haddie. Or Yui, who gets pretty outfits except it's the exact same thing 100x over.
Certainly won't say no to more, though. Or a bikini.
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Personally I'm feeling the voicelines are starting to become a bit overdone - Vecna definitely didn't need them, imo. But good god would voicelines save Freddy from the sad old man corner he's in right now. I know it's the wrong license, but the man desperately needs a personality. Every time I hear Chucky go off, I look at Freddy and think "what if…"
Laurie with lines would be good fun, too.
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I like Off The Record, Botany Knowledge, Desperate Measures, and Empathic Connection. Had a streamer yesterday call me 'fastest heal in the west.'
Though I switch that up for OTR, Botany, Quick and Quiet, and Head On just as often. Also Autodidact sometimes (…I used it before it was cool…)
Been bringing a lot of Bardic Inspiration during the event in case the killer is feeling groovy.
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Speak for yourself, I'm having a wonderful time. The insta-hooks aren't a good mechanic, but on the whole I'm getting more wholesome games than usual and the Tryks mechanics are fun.
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This news hit me like a gut punch. ALS is unspeakably cruel and it's been heartbreaking to watch Puppers' struggles over the past three years - but he always stayed so strong throughout. He's been the best kind of force in this community - one of the greats, who built DBD up into what it is and always reminded us to have a great time more than anything else. Godspeed, Max. Might be time to close your eyes, but you never let it win.
Time to break out the charms and the playlists.
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Glad to know it's not just me; I've had a daily that's been taking up a slot and can't complete for a few days now.
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@dkramdani said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3403712#Comment_3403712
hi i dont think both killers are overpowered i was just taking an example did i mention that they were overpowered before?
"we take the example again with the killers that make it difficult for players like the pig. trappers or even killers who use stacks like xenobites. killer basically has been designed to be overpowered with all its abilities"
I'm not really sure how else to interpret this.
@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3403712#Comment_3403712
Tombsones are fine and myers just should be buffed never run out of stalk. Also his tier 1 should have normal lunge.
I'm totally down for points #2 and #3, but you can't seriously tell me that Tombstone Piece is okay. Being able to boot someone out of the game 45 seconds in isn't healthy or fair, especially because you don't even have to interact with that player in order to get stalk out of them.
Judith's Tombstone is at least properly balanced (slowed speed, generally has to be paired with inf T3 for an even longer windup) even if I don't think it creates very fun games.
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...If you're claiming Pig and Trapper are overpowered and overwhelming for the survivors, it's going to be difficult for people to take your claims seriously.
I don't think you can really compare perks to addons. While Myers' tombstone addons are definitely outdated and long overdue for a rework, and there's other stuff like Alchemist's Ring that need changes, that doesn't have anything to do with Dead Hard and CoH, and their previous omnipresence compared to single-killer issues.
Updates often favor one side or another, but it's just the rhythm of how these things work, often addressing groups of similar problems at once. There's been plenty of killer-friendly patches and plenty of survivor-friendly ones. It's all part of an ever-evolving game.
Also, yeah, as said above, several dominant killer meta perks got whacked or altered this midchapter as well. This wasn't an especially lopsided patch - definitely not compared to the likes of 6.1.
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I was waiting for this thread to happen. BHVR opened Felix's shirt very slowly, in stages - beachwear, half-open pajamas. But we've finally reached that promised land... two supple mantits bared to the world.
Anything is possible with enough thirst. Whose shirt can we take off next? I call Clown.
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@DBD78 said:
Not really a killer main but I like to proxy camp, play basement Trapper etc. The chase, chase, chase games with Blight, Nurse, Wesker etc is only stressful. A perfect basement game you can stand around a lot and have a drink while playing. If they still escape I just think about how they were not having too much fun playing that game, and that the entity will forgive me for losing if survivors are a bit angry after the game. Just see every kill as a bonus.
If you're playing to intentionally make other players upset, you're part of the problem. Like, if chilling is how you like to play, you do you, but getting satisfaction out of ruining other people's games is just maladjusted behavior.
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Are you certain the Dwight was still there? On rare occasions, the HUD will fail to update when a player disconnects and their status will be stuck on whatever they were doing last. Unless you saw the Dwight again, it's possible he DCed.
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Yeah, this just completely destroys whatever semblance of stealth she has. If the point of her lullaby was to be subtle, it sure isn't that anymore.
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Yeah, this is SO nice. I'm especially loving the feature where I can hold something on the end of a node and the game will autobuy everything up to it. Allows a nice hybrid approach where I can grab an item of interest or two quickly, then finish up the rest of the web on auto. Excellent feature!
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@Dipper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3403504#Comment_3403504
Especially when Meg jumps into a locker, you silently get into the one next to her and you get found
For realism, they should have had Meg fast vault out of the locker when Trappy Boi shows up, open your locker, and then Sprint Burst away.
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They're moving away from items having unique effects and counterplay on killers. It's a dated mechanic that unnecessarily punishes no longer being able to switch killers in the lobby. Besides, Wraith certainly didn't need more weaknesses.
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Yeah, this is moderately annoying. I joined well before the tutorials were a thing and never felt the need to complete them. Oh well, I guess I get bloodpoints out of it now... but I just wanted to log in to claim a code :U
Edit: I like how the survivor tutorial forced me to drop a pallet for absolutely no reason - like, I was waiting to stun the killer with it and it wasn't even an option - and taught me to both heal under the hook and go hide in a locker right next to the hook while injured. Definitely setting off new survivors to a good start.
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@pigslittlepet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3403248#Comment_3403248
One of my favorite to play and to verse. Whoever is better will win.
That's so true, though. A new or mediocre Doctor will waste loads of his own time with ineffectual shocks while a skilled one is going to catch me at every single pallet. Not to mention all the little things to get used to in his kit - the blink-and-you'll-miss-it tracking with the illusions, how Madness messes with the survivor's perspective and can trick them into thinking you're somewhere you aren't with those fake TRs.
I've always enjoyed how his addons add in a multitude of effects to play with, all of them having uses but none of them individually overpowered. Definitely something more killers could strive for.
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People have been magic 8-balling this game's death for years now, over all kinds of often contradictory reasons, and it still seems to be going strong.
Solo is full of stupid and even griefing players, but it isn't all bad, or even mostly bad. Most games, I have nothing negative to say about my teammates. The real issue is that the way MMR works punishes survivors for losing by placing them with more and more inept teammates, which increases your likelihood of getting corner crouchers, compulsive ragequitters, and people that do nothing but wait for hatch.
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I think Wesker, Plague, and Demogorgon all hit the sweet spot of having a wide variety of useful addons to choose from and a reasonable power level that really shines if you know how to use them well without being overwhelming or unnecessarily difficult to counter. (Granted, Plague's counterplay depends very much on what your teammates do and that's not something you can control, but that's not a problem intrinsic to the killer, it's just people having bad game sense.)
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I wouldn't buy the rift pass at release unless you don't normally complete the rift in time, and there's something at the end of the track you want. Otherwise, it's a free $10 - why not take it?
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I just play casual. If survivors impress me or do silly stupid things, I let them go. This moderates my MMR, making me less likely to run into aggressive sweatlords and more likely to run into more memesters - and when I don't, the lowered MMR makes it so that I can screw around and chase whoever I want with whatever builds I want without immediately losing the match.
You still get the sweatlord/bully matches, because backfill is a thing, but it's not so common that playing killer isn't fun for me.
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Wow, this is crazy generous of them. One thing to give everyone a free premium rift track, another to give a free 1k Auric Cells out! That's two licensed characters right there.
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Yeah, I wanted to throw my two cents into the pile! I was very concerned by a lot of the stuff that went onto the latest PTB and I'm extremely glad BHVR saw the feedback and walked things back. We've had a lot of PTBs where nothing changed onto live and it had me worried we were going to enter an age of forever heals and Billy being bricked up into a shed somewhere, but nope - things are looking pretty good now.
I'm so glad base healing time was reverted - I was genuinely dreading playing in a 24-second base heal DBD. I'm kind of confused about Pain Resonance, but I guess it's more frontloaded now? And CoH is now viable if not great like it used to be. Looking forward to the new Autohaven tile!
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I can take CoH nerfs. I welcome medkit nerfs. But nerfing base healing was a terrible choice and I just cannot understand what the impetus behind it was.
It's going to make healing utterly ridiculous once you start factoring in Sloppy, and honestly it's probably going to encourage people to stay injured and slam gens, which isn't healthy.
And yeah, trying to get your teammates to help you in solo queue is rolling the dice every time. Sometimes you get super helpful teammates, sometimes you get people who run away from you across half the map or just spam point at the gen when you're 85% healed and need a top-off.
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@[Deleted User] said:
There's no rational explanation for it. At this point I wonder if the balance devs are under some sort of advanced hypnosis or spell that prevents them from noticing Blight while causing them to hyper-fixate on and nerf killers that actually need positive changes like Billy. It's still impossible to tell what their balance target is or who they're balancing for.
I'm 100% positive this is because of that same thing that got them to nerf Marvin's Blood and Toy Sword. Whenever an addon is used significantly more than others, they have to whack it, because it's dominant and that means it's OP.
...Which is, in Billy's case, ignoring that most of his addon spread is complete shite and Engravings are about the only worthwhile addons he has left. Them and lopro, anyway.
It's really sad. Billy doesn't deserve this. He's very difficult to play and this is just kicking the players who really do have the skill to use his saw effectively in chase. Sometimes I just do not understand what BHVR is trying to do.
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@ranzoo_tr said:
tbh only wraith and hag suffered of flashlights, but for wraith it was easy to dodge a survivor who tries to burn you out while you're cloaked, the batteries descharge quickly. But it's a good change for the hag.
Yeah, Hag versus flashlights was miserable. More than one and she was basically a 110 without a power.
I didn't have too much issue with Wraith versus flashlights, and you could get survivors to waste tons of battery fast, but flashbangs were another story. Brutal, and virtually nothing you could do about it.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
DH, CoH, and CoB were all overpowered though. While I’ll admit CoH is most definitely dead now, hopefully now the devs will realize boon totems are a failed mechanic because no one will actually use them anymore. I actually don’t have a problem with any of these perks being nerfed, what I do have a problem with is how hard healing was nerfed when the only problems were medkits and CoH.
Call of Brine wasn't overpowered, though. It could get a bit stupid with Overcharge, but it was easy to counter - you just return to the gen quickly or you tap it. If the killer hugs the gen for a while, then you pile somewhere else. The issue was the emergence of killers who can 3gen like their lives depend on it, not gen regression perks themselves.
DH and CoH, yeah, even if I thought CoH was in a healthier state before than they're putting it now. And DH I'm just tired of hearing about.
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I hope so! RE seems very friendly when it comes to collaborations, so I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some RE4R content in DBD soon enough.
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The issue is that BHVR seems more intent on changing the meta than balancing perks. This is pointless, because meta is meta for a reason. If you kill the old one, a new one shows up. You will always have a dominant meta because some perks are just more reliable and help with more vital things than others. The best you can hope for is that the meta is healthy.
You saw this with Self-Care, Ruin, and Pop last time - now it's this lot. Nerfs can be very good, but deleting perks is just unhealthy.
I don't think PR is strictly dead, but CoH is six feet under and I doubt DH is crawling out of its grave this time.
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I think this was a good change. While it might have been replaced with counterplay that was universally available, it really sucked queueing up as Wraith or Hag and getting 2-4 flashlights in the lobby. One of the few times I'd dodge, because it just felt like being mega screwed by an outdated mechanic and you can't even switch killers anymore.
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Yeaaaaah, that was not well thought out. For something as major and ubiquitous as healing, a slower, tweak-this-and-then-that approach would have been healthier than slapping this all up at once.
Plus, nerfing base healing speed to me just seems like a terrible idea. The issue was the stacked buffs and how nuts they could get, not the core mechanic. And CoH is basically pointless now. Was it a strictly healthy perk, no, but making something unusable is not the answer.
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Man, this just reeks of BHVR looking at which addons are used the most and taking a compulsive hammer to them instead of thinking about whether they're actually healthy. Or, y'know, realizing that nobody wants to play Billy anymore because he's in such bad, outdated shape, and taking away his remaining few toys ain't gonna make the rest of his absolute crap addon spread any more appetizing.
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Really strong agreement on most of these. Nerfing medkits is great! Nerfing normal healing speed is unhealthy. There was nothing wrong with the 32s time investment between two survivors; it didn't need to be multiplied by one-point-five.
I disagree that the PR nerf is good, though. To me, that's just nerfing a perk because it's being used a lot, not because it was unhealthy.
I didn't care about Dead Hard much but sure, why not, maybe it'll even stop the constant threads.
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@Seraphor said:
For the skill check?
That's just a noob stomper, though. It'll catch decent players off guard once and maybe mess with people who try to gen tap in chase, but survivors who can give you any level of trouble will hit the skill check.
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Yeah, this is just stupid. Just because a perk is meta doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. This is just playing whack-a-mole, once again missing the point of why gen regression perks are meta, and while I was afraid this was going to happen, and I suppose they could have done worse to it, it's not a promising sight. Wonder how they'll kill Jolt...
Besides being a scourge hook and therefore somewhat unreliable, Pain Res gains power directly off survivor mistakes and killer momentum. If survivors are getting slammed by it one after another, they're losing the match anyway. It already had capped usages. It's healthy design. I'd much rather verse a killer with PR/DMS than a killer with CoB/Overcharge, because it's a perk combo that forces dynamic play.
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I've noticed a serious uptick in killers whacking me on the hook, haha.
Every time a Leon or a Steve gets off one of those endless porn star wails, I'm tempted myself.
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Well, the addons that increase her hatchet capacity give you more shots. You can boost it from 5 to 8, IIRC, which means you only need a 50% accuracy ratio instead of 80%.
I'm probably going to farm this one myself. I'm pants at aiming when a target is standing still, much less in motion. Other than that, I'd go for a map that has low loops that you can shoot over, which tends to trap survivors in a lose-lose.
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Okay, so it's not just me. I was wondering what I was doing wrong. Was afraid they'd jacked up the difficulty or changed how the challenge worked.
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@AMOGUS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3368163#Comment_3368163
People mass ragequitted when the basekit Killer buffs went live. This community is full of sheep and overreacts to stuff heavily.
I mean, yeah, I remember this and it was incredibly miserable to play during, but it's not like they reverted the buffs, so it's not an example of successful ragequit-protesting as per the OP. They did improve basekit BT, but imo that was a healthy change and the 5-second version did jack all to deter tunneling or wean off reliance on everyone bringing Borrowed Time.
I also think there probably wasn't much useful data to gather from that instance, since it was people getting pissy across the board. Just throwing made-up numbers at the wall here, if the base DC rate in the game is 0.5% and in Skull Merchant matches it jumps to 3%, it indicates there's something about Skull Merchant that's causing abnormal amounts of ragequitting. That's where my point is. Same if it's attached to a perk (Boil Over, Eruption, Lightborn - as lmao-worthy as that is, but the indication does not in and of itself mean an actionable problem) or a map (RPD) And so on.
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I was really happy to hear about the changes. They responded to this really quickly, which hasn't usually happened with new releases, and as far as I can tell, everything looks pretty appropriately geared towards making SM more dynamic. More chase power and less gen power, and her drone placement is less of a no-brainer, especially when she won't have an easy three at a time. I can see solos still really struggling to coordinate, since one person can't handle all the drones on their own, but it's not like before where a lack of coordination just meant you were stuck in the match for half an hour.
Looking forward to seeing how she plays in her altered state.
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Sounds kind of terrifying with Lethal Pursuer, NGL. Plague at least has to walk to her free fountain and then walk to the survivors at 115 speed.
I think a better way of strengthening Oni against predrop fests would be to make it so that his power continues to passively charge to full... or better yet, that breaking pallets gives him some small amount of charge. Starting out with it is overkill, but this way he won't get completely stalled out either.
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Wesker and Blight. Oni in Blood Fury as well. The game of trying to sidestep their charge, and battling for the right angle and trying to avoid being pushed into a long corridor or straight fence while they try to hem you into one, is really fun.
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Ever since the hatch rework, yeah. I never liked hatch challenges, but it goes beyond the pale now. I wish they'd stop making them.
It's not even the killer that's the enemy in this scenario, it's your teammates. Whether they're waiting for you and don't want to leave before they know you're safe, or they just want to butt dance the killer to the wire and then Dead Hard out, nobody will fricking leave. And because you can only start to look for the hatch once they're gone, this is a major issue. Like you said, I've been in situations where I knew where the hatch was going to spawn, but couldn't jump through it because my teammates waited to the literal last second to leave. So if you don't have a SWF, the only reliable way to get a shot at hatch is to be a coward or an outright sandbagger and let your team die.
I wouldn't use hatch offerings, though, unless you're specifically doing a key challenge. Those just tell the killer where it'll be. Better to take your chances with hatch roulette and bring Clairvoyance or Left Behind.
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You do realize that if people are ragequitting en masse, to the point where it's visible as a data trend, that's indicative of a problem, right? It implies that something is so anti-fun that players would rather eat a penalty than verse it, and once it gets statistically significant and not just a matter of the usual sore losers who can't handle seeing Lightborn in their four-flashy lobbies or whatever - that's really unhealthy for the state of the game? And therefore it's something that BHVR is probably going to look into as a matter of game health?
I'm not saying that DCing is a good, or a legal move, or that I don't despise my teammates for it. But it's not some coordinated effort to crybully something out of the game. It's thousands of players deciding individually that they'd rather stop playing than continue to deal with something. And because BHVR wants the game to be fun, they generally try to address it.
It's not just survivor complaints this applies to. Take RPD. Or Boil Over.
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A casual mode would never work because it relies on good faith. There's nothing stopping some asshat who wants to troll with basement Bubba, a sweatlord going for a 50-win streak, or a neckbeard trying to build up a hilarious clicky-click juicer montage for their 3-follower youtube channel from joining the casual queue because it'll presumably give them easier games.
Too many DBD players are intentionally malicious when it comes to their behavior towards other players/the 'other side', to say nothing of the people who just want to play easy mode.
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@jesterkind said:
I'm still not sure exactly how Skull Merchant's kit makes her better than the average killer at holding a 3-gen. Her kit does three things, right, and two of them are almost useless in 3-gen scenarios because you already know where survivors are and they already know where you are in a broad sense because... it's a 3-gen, it's a tight area you can easily control by walking around it, that's the entire definition of what a 3-gen is.
That leaves the third part, her exposed, and that's just straight weaker for 3-gen scenarios than something like an infinite Tier 3 Myers or a Pinky Finger Clown or just a straight up basekit Leatherface. What about her can you nerf to make her not as good at 3-gen scenarios, considering it really seems like it's just normal 3-gen tactics being applied through her?
There may be something I'm missing about this that explains why she is the problem and not just, regular 3-gen builds that any killer can do and most can do better than her, but it doesn't seem that way from where I'm sitting. If the way her games are going is a problem, then the cause - things like CoB, for example - should probably be looked at before she is.
Skully excels at 3-gens because her power tells her exactly when survivors return to each gen, so you can't slip in directly behind her, and also forces survivors to do a secondary objective before they can repair it - otherwise she'll show up Undetectable and oneshot them. Normally survivors are comfortable eating a hit and W-ing away in that situation, and she denies that.
So it's like Knight where she can force some additional timewasting that guarantees CoB and Overcharge will regress enough of the gen for her to hold her ground. On her own, she's not a juggernaut because she can't be everywhere at once, but with the perks? Unless you're on comms, you get stalemated real quick.
I think looking at CoB/Overcharge would be a pretty terrible idea, though. That's just playing whack-a-mole with gen regression perks, and we've already axed four of them in the past year. Those two perks have counterplay. The issue is that Knight and Skull Merchant can deny that counterplay, and they don't have much going for them elsewhere, so timewaster strats end up pretty attractive.