Laluzi
Laluzi
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- Laluzi
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It's understandable in the event queue. Killer gives way more bloodpoints, match control, and feels really good to play with the instahooks and pallet breaks. If you're trying to cram cakes on the last day, I imagine you'd want to play killer - I know I am.
That said, I'm getting fairly fast killer games right now, so it looks like a region or MMR issue.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753499#Comment_3753499
I won’t be able to make it personally, but I’m looking forward to the q&a!
I have no words for how badly I need that windshield wiper crow to be an animated charm xD
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@Phantom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753949#Comment_3753949
Maybe the devs should fix their game, instead of us needing 2 perk slots out of 4 to counter one play-style hm? And I still wouldn't waste 2 perk slots, you do you :)
I mean, from where I'm standing, they already did. I bring OTR in 90% of my survivor games, but it's not like BT where the perk was legitimately mandatory on everyone to stop the killer from being able to sit next to the hook and smack the unhooked survivor back down the microsecond their feet touched the ground.
Now that it's guaranteed to give an endurance hit no matter what, I've had a killer hit me off the hook, like… once? in the entirety of survivor games I've played during the event? And it was a Billy saw, so I don't even know if they were trying to hit me or the unhooker. Way more common that the killer waits 10 seconds, tries to hit me then, and OTR gives me value.
Tunneling is still inordinately powerful, but we're no longer at the stage where perks are mandatory to bandaid game flaws, and the basegame protections have done a fair job at making these tactics less ubiquitous.
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753906#Comment_3753906
Realizing you either can't find the Survivor or chase them efficiently while not throwing doesn't mean you didn't tunnel earlier.
now, you're making it about intent, which is ABSURDLY difficult to decipher from an often across-the-map perspective.
Failing a tunnel-out due to circumstances or realizing you're getting cooked doesn't mean it doesn't count.
Unfortunately I think intent, or at least an inference of it, is necessary to come up with any kind of meaningful statistic about tunneling. A survivor being hooked twice in a row doesn't really mean anything by itself. If the chases between those hooks were a minute apart, the killer was doing other things, and then happened to find that same survivor healed and doing gens, that isn't a tunnel. Even if the hooks are in quick succession, it can be a matter of bad luck or poor plays, though the situation starts looking more suspect.
But, I think you can reasonably discern intent by whether or not the killer makes an attempt to pursue that survivor 3x in a row. This was observable in most of your games. True, you don't have eyes in the sky, but if the killer isn't proxying/coming back to the hook or they're chasing someone else, it's not tunneling - or at least not a definition of tunneling many people would agree with, so not statistically useful.
I'm not saying you need the kind of perfect match replay that picks apart why the killer might have tunneled that survivor, whether it was incited, if the survivor did something stupid that made them an opportunistic target, or whether factors in the match made the tunnel 'justified.' That level of intent is too specific and defeats the point of this experiment. But I do think you need a higher standard of narrowing down 'this killer was trying to get a survivor out of the game,' because as it is, a sample of seven games turned up six false positives where your definition of tunneling was met, but the actual spirit and predominant complaint of tunneling was not.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753554#Comment_3753554
To make it as simple as possible, a Killer going after the same Survivor and hooking them twice in a row is tunneling at it's most simple.
Adding conditions make it murkier and much harder to judge without running a SWF all streaming.
I feel like, if we're trying to ferret out the prevalence of problematic strats, it's useful to examine at least two things:
-Was the killer pursuing other survivors before or after those two consecutive hooks? Numbering our survivors as 1, 2, 3, and 4: I think everyone who is not in denial would agree that a game where the killer hooked 2, 2, 2, 3, 1, 4 is tunneling, but there'd be a lot less consensus in a game where the killer hooked 1, 4, 2, 3, 3, 2, 3, or even 1, 1, 4, 2, 1 (unless 4 and 2 went down trying to protect 1.)
-How many gens were left when the tunnel happened? A killer tunneling a player out from the start of the game has a very different connotation than a killer tunneling out a player at 1 gen left. They're both tunneling, but the first killer's plan was forcing the 3v1 by preventing a survivor from playing the game; the second one is pulling out the stops because they're losing, but was playing differently before, and the survivor who gets tunneled did have a chance to participate in the match and earn points.
Both of these things can be tracked without comms or aura perks.
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@SleepyWater said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753478#Comment_3753478
I agree that I dont see those "bad players" regularly, but a the same time it weights a lot when you see them in your match. But again I will repeat myself, and say that BHVR should add opened statistics on each player while you in the lobby to see what you should expect to see from them in the match.
"If you aren't having fun playing the majority of your matches, it's probably time to find a different game." This phrase never makes sense, I added suggestion as a way to deal with unfair "balance system" in DbD. I can say the same phrase to you, if you dont like my suggestion, then why you're wasting time saying something here?
Seems like I wasnt clear with my idea. BHVR can add a choice of doing it after something will happen, for example if gens will be repaired in under than # seconds, if surv is moving way to fast (but its more about anti-cheat theme). When other surv DC'd, why BHVR wont let you DC too, but without penalty (like other games have), or when killer is camping and tunneling. Another way, they can add a voting system, if 3 or 4 survs will agree to surrender and go next match faster, why not?Your suggestion is 'I don't want to play this match and the game should let me leave', though. Enabling and incentivizing people to quit matches they're not having fun in is one of the worst things you could do for game balance, because this game already has a major issue of teammates leaving and ruining matches.
Can't agree with player statistics at all. I already think they should hide prestige because all that does is enable lobby shopping and ruin how MMR is meant to work, and also encourage the killer to target players that look less experienced. This would just make the same problem worse - half the players in the game would dodge you if you didn't meet some arbitrary criteria of a 'good' teammate. And your survivor statistics can look terrible because you've been in bad matches with bad teammates! ELO hell is bad enough as it is.
Voting systems don't work because it's an assymetrical team game and the teams are at cross-purposes. Survivors automatically outvote the killer, and again, you'll frequently get players trying to leave a game for no other reason than they're losing. Even more frequently because players used tactics that are deemed unfun (camp/slug/tunnel, bodyblocking, sabo, flashlight saves, genrush) or because the killer brought perks most survivors don't like (slowdown, franklins, weave attunement… in the case of swfs, lightborn), or because the killer is playing a killer most survivors don't like (skull merchant, knight, nurse, billy, plague, legion, bubba, clown, etc.) When you make this possible and penalty-free, the floodgates open - have you ever played DBD at a time DC penalties were turned off? Match shopping skyrockets.
A voting system would only really work in cases where most players are in agreement something very weird has happened, like one survivor is trolling the others and throwing the match (and the killer is an honorable enough player not to take advantage of this), there's a gamebreaking bug, or someone is hacking. Otherwise it's just disagreement about who's winning and losing and unfun tactics.
I support survivors being able to leave the game when they're slugged for the 4k/the killer is bleeding them out to be a dick, but otherwise I'm expecting players to play out the match they signed up for. I do sympathize with going 'screw this' when your teammates are completely useless and they're all afraid of gens, but in those situations, you can exit the match by letting the killer catch you and just bailing on hook. Which is a huge problem because people abuse the hell out of this for the aforementioned purposes, but it's there if you do get a match that just isn't going anywhere.
If the issue here is camping, tunneling, etc, it's better to address the unfun game tactics by adding built in counters and making them less rewarding and harder to pull off - which DBD has done to some success (they're still problems, but I was around before the anti-facecamp mechanic and back when you could be smacked back down 0.01 seconds after being unhooked, and things are much healthier than they were then.) There isn't really anything you can do about bad teammates, though... but leaving games certainly isn't it, because that just makes you part of the problem.
You'll get way worse games if you let people ditch with impunity. As it is, the painfully bad matches suck, but you being stuck in them actually decreases the number of bad matches that play out. If you have 20 games, would you rather play them all out and 3 of them are bad, or have to quit 13 of them because another player gave up first for whatever reason and then everyone started leaving? Again, when DC penalties have been turned off, this game became near unplayable.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753167#Comment_3753167
Why are you assuming that the reason why this happens to me, or anyone, is because the survivor played a stealth game? I hardly ever play like this. I am a gen to gen survivor player. I'm always out in the open where the killer can see me. This isn't a double standard. This is killer players forcing the last real survivor into a situation they have no power over because of how the bots work. All I am asking for is some bot improvement so the killer can't use them in a forced teaming situation.
I assume for two reasons.
One, for this to happen, you're currently stealthing, and very committed to it.
Two, your other current topic in suggestions is asking for Evader emblems when you don't spend any time near the killer or in chase. I don't think it's a stretch to assume you wouldn't ask this unless this happened frequently enough to matter for you, and while games you don't interact with the killer do happen when you have a bad killer or very competent teammates… generally that doesn't occur on its own.
It paints a picture. But my real problem here is that you seem to think you're owed the hatch and it's unfair for the killer to pursue the win with the same dogged time-wasting tactics you're employing. I'm unconvinced by your use of 'forcing the survivor' because a.) this match, with a 2v1 with several gens left, is already essentially hopeless and the survivors have lost, so of course you're out of options and it's hatch or death, and b.) killers can force survivors to do a lot of things by design. They're the power role. If a killer is chasing you, the survivor is forced to run away. Nothing wrong with that. Unless you're slugged, hooked, or Incapacitated, you have agency in the match.
And once again. I do not think the bots actually matter in this scenario, because this can and does happen with two human survivors. I have already detailed this. It's not that rare to get down to two survivors left, one is hiding, and one isn't. Your complaint is, fundamentally, that the killer is not killing the non-hiding survivor to try and flush out the hiding one, which I have already explained would be a poor move for them to do if they want the 4k. You are refusing to address this and handwaving target prioritization as 'unnatural' gameplay.
And 'forced teaming' is not a thing unless you are claiming that a survivor being alive is teaming with the killer. Because yes, the killer is getting value out of that survivor being alive and hatch not spawning, but now you are accusing a survivor of a reportable offense for pursuing their primary objective of not dying. Bad, bad predecent. Like... what's a survivor supposed to do if a killer starts ignoring them, or won't commit to them? Point at the hook for fairness's sake? No. The survivor isn't responsible for what the killer does, and the killer isn't teaming with a player by merely not interacting with them. If a survivor runs in front of me with endurance and I don't hit them, am I teaming? If I run into a survivor three times in a row and decide to take pity on them and walk away, am I teaming? Your definition of teaming strips agency from the killer and expects them to play like a bot.
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@SleepyWater said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753131#Comment_3753131
Yes, thats what I am talking about, it is a team game. How can I ruin a game for "4 people", if these 3 survs literally dont do anything. I have seen players that did NOTHING throughout the game, even when killer was far away. Yes, it's happening not every game, but its still annoying. How I said to other guy, in this case BHVR can add statistics in game so you can look how these players play.
Because your idea of 'my team sucks and I deserve to leave' isn't going to line up with other people's idea of 'my team sucks', and I have zero reason to trust it. I've seen literal hundreds of players suicide because they went down in chase first, or because one player went in a locker for a bit, or because their teammates went down too quickly, or because the killer used tactics they didn't like. I've seen people sandbag their teammates because they missed a skill check. I've seen killers that quit because their hex gets cleansed immediately or 3 gens pop at 90s. Giving them carte blanche to do this is an awful idea, because way too many players think 'I'm losing' is a valid reason to ditch a game at the start.
While players who do absolutely nothing and urban evade in bushes all game exist, as well as SWFs who screw around and don't do anything - I'm very skeptical of anyone who claims this happens regularly, and assume they're exaggerating and just want to bail whenever they have teammates that don't meet their standards.
And you ruin the game for 4 people because the killer's match is also botched if you suicide on hook. Most people don't like playing unfair matches; when I get a 3man at 5 gens because the first guy I hooked decided to throw a tantrum, I can either mop the rest up to get the match over with and feel really bad about it because I've been on the other end more times than I can count, or I can farm and waste my time in tedium. It's not a real game. And if the player DCs… bots are bad from both a surv and a killer perspective. They play like scared newbies but they have wallhacks and hide constantly, so they don't progress objectives much and often leave people to die on hook because they don't want to go into a terror radius, and they either go down in 10 seconds in a deadzone or break the killer's kneecaps, and rooting them out is a nuisance compared to human players which play bolder and don't avoid chases.
If you aren't having fun playing the majority of your matches, it's probably time to find a different game. Quitting whenever something you deem unfair happens in a match is selfish behavior, and scuttling the game for everyone else you queue with until you get a match that meets your standards deserves the punishment currently attached.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753024#Comment_3753024
If the killer actively decides to not progress the match by avoiding the bot and also keeping the bot from doing gens then the survivor isn't doing anything wrong in responding to that in this way. If the killer really doesn't want to have a hatch race and is willing to go that far not to do it, then they shouldn't complain when survivors do this. Why do killers get a pass on this but survivors are expected to basically give the match to the killer?
…You're the one invoking the double standard, though. You're the one saying the killer is exploiting and shouldn't be allowed to prolong the match like this, but in the same thread you're saying the survivor can wait as long as they want because they want to win.
Both players can do this. Because they want to win. That doesn't mean anyone has to like it. And they generally don't, which is why you're getting so many killers that are determined to hunt you down with extreme prejudice after you play stealth games. You're running into people that are just as stubborn as you are and getting upset that they're not giving you the easy escape, but they have the exact same complaint that you're not rolling over and giving you the easy kill.
There's a big difference between saying 'this tactic is scummy/annoying and I don't like it' and going to suggestions and saying 'this shouldn't be allowed and has to be fixed.' Once more, I really don't understand why the bot in this situation makes this different when a human survivor can and will behave the same way.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753127#Comment_3753127
The reason it's easier to dodge pallet saves than flashlight saves is because pallet saves have no buffer. Flashlight saves can be done slightly before the pickup animation is complete and they go through instantly once you regain control, before you can press Q.
Dodging saves is pretty ping dependent in general, and shouldn't really be a thing. I don't think it's intended to work that way. It's definitely not intended to teleport the person saving to a hook instead. That was absolutely wild when that happened to me.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753126#Comment_3753126
Hell, why not give Killers a Quiet Mode instead? Press the event button outside of a chase and get like 10 seconds of Undetectable. Bubba stocks through the roof.
Oh man, that bug is wild. I'm more impressed than anything that, like… that even happened as a result of blinds and powers. A glimpse of what lurks beneath the spaghetti code. New killer perk: No U.
I like the idea of killer quiet mode! Might bump to 15s for stronger value because of the distance a 32m TR killer can cross, but it's something we already see loads of with perks and Tryks's cards and while it can be strong, it's not too gamebreaking. I guess lullaby killers who aren't Trickster can't use it, but some of the powers aren't relevant to every killer anyway.
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@Caiman said:
I don't trust complaints about tunneling because people's definitions of tunneling are unreliable.
Big +1 to this.
Some people (correctly) ID tunneling as the killer pursuing them off each hook no matter who else tries to get in the way. Some say they're being tunneled because they went right back on a gen next to the hook. Some say they're being tunneled because the killer is snowballing hard and they got hooked twice in the span of a minute, even though other players were downed between those times. Some say they're being tunneled because they used endurance to bodyblock for the unhooker and then went "wait that's illegal" when the killer committed to them. Some say they're being tunneled because at 2 gens left the killer started targeting them hard. Some say they're being tunneled because they died.
Combo the confirmation bias that makes it feel like the killer has it out for you in particular because you don't see their interactions with anyone else, with the prevalent zeitgeist that you remember your unpleasant matches much more than your average ones, and the game feels a lot worse than it is. I'm not surprised at these results. Doesn't mean tunneling isn't a problem, but it's definitely not an every game thing.
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We have this. It's called the Leave Match button. The DC penalty is intentional.
I'm sorry, but this is the dead opposite of what the game needs. This is a team game and survivors dipping out early ruins the game for the four other players left behind. Allowing that as anything other than an emergency not only makes it harder for players to complete a match, but encourages more early quits and ruined games by enabling shopping for favorable conditions - survivors who won't play unless the killer is on their mythical List Of Killers That Are Fun To Play Against and their teammates are running meta builds, or killers who won't play unless the survivors are confused baby solos they can wipe at 5 gens.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753110#Comment_3753110
I don't think they should implement a power stronger than breaking pallets remotely.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3753119#Comment_3753119
About half of those aren't even countered by remote hook. The killer still has to pick up which leaves them open for saves, and doesn't bypass DS. At least it's not meant to, it's kinda buggy. I've been getting my fair share of pallet/beamer saves and I've been getting hit with pallet/beamer saves too.
It only really counters Sabotage.
I've found that if you spam Q fast enough, you can get the survivor on the hook before the blind or pallet stun goes off. It's not 100%, but it works. My personal experience is that it's easier to dodge pallet saves than blinds this way - not sure if that's because survivors tend to be better at timing beamers or if that's intrinsic. Haven't tested it with Decisive but I've seen multiple clips of it, because the skill check has a slight delay.
If we were to keep remote hooks, I'd want them to be limited so that they can't be used until ~6 seconds into the carry, and they'd need to nix the part where it can yeet a survivor onto another floor of the map. Right now it saves too much time and does too much on top of that.
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It's quite strong, but personally I'd rather get rid of remote hooks. The pallet break is efficient. The instahook is efficient and invalidates multiple entire playstyles. Decisive Strike, Flip-Flop, Power Struggle, Breakout, Breakdown, Boil Over (good riddance admittedly), Background Player, Flashbang, and Saboteur are all functionally unrunnable right now because killers can just Q on pickup and override every tool for hook denial survivors have. The pallet break murks Any Means Necessary and that's it.
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Personally not a fan. The aesthetic direction you can go with them is very cool, but they facilitate confusing counterintuitive map design that can only be understood by memorization and screw with too many killer powers. I'd rather not see them again.
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The counterplay is looping, though? Exposed pretty much always works on a timer, be it perks or power. You play extra safe, drop pallets early. You can hold off Myers or Ghostface or Haunted Ground for a minute if you're good, and if you're not good, you would have gone down in that time frame anyway.
It's harder in the event mode with Tryks randomly exposing everyone against every killer, but for Myers and Ghostface and Oni, there's conditions and tradeoffs built into their power. The chainsaw killers are a little more ehhh, because they counter pallets and that's the main way of keeping an instadown killer away from you. But the only instadown I really consider an issue is Bubba, because he chases like a regular killer (juking won't help and won't gain distance like it does on Billy and Oni), always has his power, and your only means of consistently holding him off is a good window loop… which he can and will counter with perks.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752933#Comment_3752933
I have almost 4000 hours in DBD. I don't care about BPs or XP anymore. Those come naturally just from playing the game. I'm not saying I should get a iri Evader in this situation, but I also shouldn't get little to nothing either. At the very least it should be a silver emblem for escaping without being touched by the killer.
But there's another emblem that rewards you for that exact scenario. You just described iri Unbroken. A player with high Evader very likely can't get max Unbroken because that only happens if you never get downed.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752945#Comment_3752945
Thats why I said forced teaming… Bots can't team with the killer, but the killer can team with the bot as they did in this situation.
But that isn't teaming. Teaming is a two-way act with intent on both sides. If I'm killer, a survivor is trying to show me where their teammates are, and I'm ignoring them and walking away, that is not teaming. If I'm a survivor, the killer is trying to pick me up and drop me so I'll show them my teammate's aura, and I don't help them, that is not teaming. And a killer ignoring a survivor to hunt another survivor is not teaming. The survivor didn't agree to anything and isn't doing anything to aid the killer.
It sounds like you're frustrated that the killer isn't pursuing whoever's in front of them. The thing is, killers are human players. They identify your strategy and they're trying to beat you. That's not toxic, that's basic competition. Sometimes pursuing the obvious target is the wrong play. If I have a survivor that's following me around clicking, I won't chase them because they're obviously assured of their skills, and if I ignore them, there's one less survivor on gens until they stop vying for my attention. Smarter to leave them alone.
Like so, if there's 4 gens left in a 2v1, a survivor who's injured, easy to track, and doing gens, and another who's healthy and I haven't seen all match? If I want a 4k, the intelligent move is to find the healthy one first. The number of gens remaining ensures I have time to hunt down the sneaky surv and then I can come back and murk the one who's a loud one-tap with predictable location, because I have much better odds beating that one to hatch.
Again, I don't understand why the bot playing selfishly, hiding, and not progressing the game really matters when you're also doing that same thing. What would be different here if the other player was a human? Is it because the bot can't want the win?
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Been saying this ever since they implemented prestiges. Show it in the postgame screen all you want, but pregame serves no purpose but to encourage lobby dodges and teammate shopping based on a number whose value is fallacious at best.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752844#Comment_3752844
I absolutely can call the killer toxic for this. What they did was basically forced teaming by taking advantage of bot AI. This is a problem that more killers will exploit unless bot AI is improved.
…That's not teaming, though. Teaming is when the other player is helping the killer win - searching for you, pointing out your location, trapping you.
The bot is just being selfish and derpy. It'd be teaming if the bot kept running to you for heals and the killer was using that to locate you, but it sounds like the bot is just wasting time and not progressing the game. I don't really see why what the bot is doing is any different from what you're doing in this scenario, except you're a human player and the bot can't enjoy a win.
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I don't think slugging in and of itself is problematic, it's a long-held game mechanic and a risk under normal circumstances, but the process of leaving survivors on the ground to secure a 4k is annoying and a very unfortunate incentive for the game to create. It takes a game where survivors have already lost and traps them in for several minutes instead of letting them exit the game naturally and move onto next.
Adding anti-slugging mechanics that allow the survivor to pick themselves up would have far greater ramifications on gameplay itself, especially killers for whom slugging is a consequence of how their power works (Plague, Oni, Twins.) And given that this scenario is one where the game is already over and you've been caught and downed, I think what's needed here is the ability to surrender and either force bleed out (survivor favored) or replace yourself with a bot (killer favored.) I don't particularly care which happens so long as I don't get left on the floor for four minutes every time the killer wants a 4k.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
I’d rather deal with this perk combination, than deal with 100% iron will.
At least with this perk combination, survivors can use triangulation (the perk notifies survivors when they are in range of a dropped item) to find the items on the ground.Meanwhile, if a survivor is hiding in a locker, or behind a wall, and has 100% iron will….. well too bad for the killer because it’s zero sound, and the killer is just expected to open every locker, and loop around every object, to try to find that survivor.
That, and the item isn't sneaking away from you…
I think Weave Attunement would be fine so long as it didn't go through floors. It's a bit busted on two-story maps (which also make the issue of 'where is the item' worse) and the amount of map that gets revealed by a single item can be pretty huge, but otherwise the damage is generally constrained to a tile. Leave the tile you got Franklins'd in and go back later to clean up the item. I haven't had a problem with this perk combo and I'm liking versing it much more than quad slowdown.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752873#Comment_3752873
I don't know, I think being able to grab and just straight up kill a Survivor is very unique to Myers. I'd be pretty sad if the Tombstone mechanic as a whole was removed, but Tombstone Piece 100% needs adjustments.
Agreed Myers would lose a big part of his identity if they remove it. And I don't relish the thought, because without being The Bogeyman, he's just another low-tier stealth killer. He deserves better.
I'd just be shocked if they left it in, considering how conservative they've been about things like Pinky Finger and Iri Head.
I suppose they might keep it if they follow the design philosophy they have with Sadako - that you can be moried on any hook if you misplay badly enough and the killer has to spend a lot of time building the status effect up. Judith's mostly applies in its current state, because it's only viable to run with Tuft and that takes forever to build up the stalk. But once the effect goes off, survivors are pretty doomed and unless they were already almost done with gens, there isn't opportunity for counterplay anymore. And it's much harder to prevent Myers from looking at you than it is to keep Sadako from gaining condemned stacks, because any gains Myers makes can't be taken back.
If they could make the actual games with Judith's more entertaining, I'd defend it harder. My big problem is that tombstone Myers is incentivized not to hit or hook anyone, just stalk, because he doesn't have time to do chases and still get T3 off. Which makes it easy to tell he has the addon, but it also means there's minimal interactivity or opportunity for points in that game. It's just hiding and occlusion and then one final chase.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752852#Comment_3752852
I think Judith's Tombstone will be fine, the downsides are enough to balance it out. Tombstone Piece will almost certainly get a change, though.
I agree Judith's is balanced, while Piece is busted because it doesn't require the stalk-everyone-to-near-full double addon setup to work, but I suspect they're going to remove it just because the no-hook healthy mori is an ancient relic of gameplay that doesn't line up with modern DBD.
I won't really mourn it. I like that Myers has so many completely different playstyles enabled by his addons (something that also doesn't really exist with modern killers, but you saw it more often with the OGs), and you don't know what to expect with him when you see him and that adds to the fear factor. But Judith's + Tuft doesn't create engaging games, win or lose.
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@Zboard said:
Talking only about the event: i used to try, but the sweat i face is ridiculous (tunneling, camping, slugging and bad matchmaking in general), so got bored. Instead just do my challenge and suicide once i get catched, is just more efficient when completing challenges.
Also i think a lot of people is just burnt out so dont care anymore
Just stop playing if you're not getting any enjoyment out of the game. Ruining other people's matches isn't the way.
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There's no way tombstone piece and Judith's Tombstone survive, which is probably for the best. Other than that… I think the first thing he needs is unlimited stalk and less punishing conditions in Tier 1. Reworking Tier 1 to be a viable maximum-stealth approach and then changing the mechanic so he cycles between the tiers instead of T1 being a nerf state he has to escape and then never returns to might be a good move?
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Is this really an exploit? The bot can still do gens, making this risky, and ultimately the killer is just trying to get rid of the player it thinks will be hardest to find first in hopes of a 4k. This is a strategy I've used myself, not on bots but leaving one survivor alone because I could readily find them and using that grace period to hunt down the other who was hiding. Sometimes because I wanted to ensure a 4k, sometimes because I wanted the non-hiding survivor to get hatch to reward them for sticking a bad match out/to not reward a player who was hiding all game and let their teammates die. This isn't teaming and it isn't exploiting, it's just the killer making a decision to prevent a sneaky player from getting away. Bots cloud the process a little, as their behavior is more formulaic than that of a player, but this was already something that was part of the game.
Like, I would support making the bots play more aggressively and waste time less - nobody benefits from having them stall the game in a 2v1 - but I heavily disagree that the killer is doing anything wrong here. If they kill the bot, the hiding player gets hatch. They want a 4k. Of course they want to pin you down first if you've been stealthing all game.
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@Caiman said:
Every time I have perks that benefit me for healing other survivors, everyone insists on healing me first. Unless I'm running Lucky Break, then I want to be healed first so I can recharge it after, but then they refuse.
I really wish that perks like Botany, Solidarity, Desperate Measures, and Autodidact showed their icon the same way We'll Make It does. I've had people insist on healing me first with no perks or medkit when I'm running a healing build powered by jet fuel and supernovas and it's stronger the more of us are injured… but they really want me to live, dammit. Or do a challenge. Probably a challenge.
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TTVs have always been prone to this. Most streamers are pretty normal, but there's always been a bunch that are trying to be the next Noob3 or just rage baiting for content. Not quite sure who that content appeals to, myself.
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Setting aside that this is verbatim a perk - as a measure, this would encourage killers to slug and fully bleed out survivors, as it doesn't harm the practice of slugging itself but makes hooking the survivors afterwards risky. That's not good. You don't want that to happen.
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I completely agree. Chucky needed them, Pinhead kind of needed them, Freddy needs them. It's core to their identity. But Vecna doesn't, and I feel his lines make him less imposing than he'd otherwise be. I'm not a fan of Singularity having lines either, or any survivors speaking in the trial at all… especially now that very random and otherwise 'normal' survivors are getting lobby lines, which detracts from the special feel of the few who did. Overall I don't feel like the chattiness fits DBD's atmosphere.
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I… kind of agree? And Evader plays out differently on indoor/two-story maps than it does outdoors - sometimes you get rewarded anyway even though you spent little to no time involved with the killer.
But on the other hand, I feel rewarding Evader for avoiding the killer via staying far away isn't healthy, because it encourages objectively selfish gameplay.
There's nothing wrong with doing gens while a cracked teammate or a 3-man SWF loops the killer for days, and sometimes a game plays out where there's no reason to ever go near the killer. But that's pretty rare, and only happens when a.) all four survivors are hiding, b.) tombstone Myers, or c.) the killer is getting their teeth kicked in. Then you have the opposite case… I get so many teammates that do gens and urban evade away whenever the killer comes near, and they have no hooks when their first and second teammates are dying on their third. That is objectively bad game sense and that playstyle shouldn't be rewarded.
And yeah, sometimes you get teammates who won't do gens because they only want to loop or follow the killer around hoping for a flashlight save, but in my experience it's way more common that the same people get caught and chased out because they just aren't hiding and are therefore the only ones the killer runs into - when they're not being tunneled outright. Those people aren't on gens because they're getting targeted too much, and the hider needs to make themselves available for chase to increase the longevity of their 4man team. But they don't care, because their plan was hatch anyway.
I guess I'm content to leave it the way it is because the emblem system already works off this dynamic of 'you can have a good match, but if you didn't do a bit of everything, you won't get a good grade.' It's flawed, but it is the precedent. I've had games where I escaped but depipped because the killer spent half the match chasing me, then I got left on hook for ~100 seconds while teammates slammed gens, and almost no one else got hooked, so I had no benevolent or lightbringer. Still a skillful game. But without depipping stalling the process nowadays, there's always next match… I would say in most matches, you would help your team by taking chase or otherwise making risky plays close to the killer, and it isn't unreasonable for the emblem to ask you to.
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@Reinami said:
He was only fun because he was easy to bully. Now that he is good suddenly everyone hates him. What a surprise.
True, but it's also a little more complicated than that. When Billy was largely held as a bad and undertuned killer (and he was), the only people who played him were either babies who were super easy to beat, or Billy fanatics that were always showing off, going for flicks and wild hits and overall high-skill plays. Sometimes you even got a skybilly, may he rest in peace with all the invisible walls they erected to keep him down.
Now Billy's swarmed with the players who flock to the strongest tools in the game - the ones who previously played alch ring c33 Blight and mother-daughter Spirit and 3-iri-hatchet Huntress and Forever Freddy and so on. And these players sweat and use all the controversial tactics because they're playing to win, not to show off the killer, so you're less likely to see skill shots in a Billy game and more proxy camping with the saw, more backhugging saws, etc. And there's a perception, gatekeeping as it is, that the current players 'didn't earn it' and are just coasting off the killer's power spike, where previously because Billy was deemed to be a bad killer, the people who could play him effectively were skillful and 'deserved the 4k.' Even if that wasn't necessarily true, and the people who play him now can be just as skillful as the ones who played him before.
'He's less fun because I can't beat him' is definitely true, but I think it has as much to do with the way he's played as it is Billy's power level itself. I hate vsing Wraith and Trickster and Skull Merchant because even though those killers aren't strong, the people who play them are notoriously cheap. This is also true for the strong-killer flavor of the week.
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It's pretty sad to spew bile at a p0 no perks killer when your team is stacked to hell and you sent yourselves to RPD. At that point, any losses are your own fault. Good on you for taking them down a peg, though I'm sorry they vomited all over your steam profile. You'd think they'd have something better to do with their lives.
I wonder sometimes about DBD and toxicity. They've made statements in the past that suggested they consider stuff like tbagging at the gate a part of the culture, and they don't really seem to care what's said in chat so long as it's not slurs or death threats. Personally I feel this game would really benefit from some community cleaning up - I don't think the cesspit environment does us any favors, I've known people who joined and were almost immediately driven off because of how nasty this game is to newbies, and it definitely feeds into the tribalism and scorn so many players have for the 'other side.'
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I'm less sick of Billy and more of the players that are currently playing him. It's the 'this killer just got buffed and I am going to sweat with them while they're strong for the 4k of least resistance' crowd. Not really a Billy problem - hell, this was Freddy once - but it's currently correlating to Billy = unfun because these players usually aren't fun to go against.
As far as killers I dislike versing, though, he's not even in my top ten.
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@Axyierl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752383#Comment_3752383
The hackers are apparently now also targeting just random players. And if that's true we're all screwed. At lest that's what Choy says and I think he's a trustworthy source
I'm not so sure about that part, because the video detailed impersonation as the lynchpin to all of the examples it provided. It stated as fact that EAC can't ban you by accident, and that all of the bans bypassed it via cheaters pretending to be a specific streamer, small or large. You can't impersonate someone without any online presence.
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Pretty horrifying trend. Very bad time to be a streamer - but at least the larger ones have enough of a voice to get attention for it. This hitting the people without fanbases and mountains of community credentials is significantly scarier. Smaller TTVs may want to stop streaming for the time being.
I do pity BHVR, though. Obviously they need to stop banning via live feeds immediately, but it's a no-win scenario and makes verifying video evidence significantly more difficult. I have to roll my eyes at cheaters announcing they're deliberately targeting vulnerable streamers to show off how scummy BHVR is being, because… yes. I agree that they're exposing a gaping flaw in the ban process. But the scummy part was scapegoating the vulnerable streamers and getting them permabanned in the first place.
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Hackers can do that, but there's also been a lot of server instability lately and that's probably a likelier cause than targeted attacks.
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I made a point of getting cobblers on every character, so I won't get anyone at 1000 - my current highest are Artist, Jane, Myers, and Pig with 100+, and Plague at 490. A bunch more have around 50.
Survivors are so much worse to grind cakes on, though. It's awful compared to what killers get. So getting 840 on Dweet is pretty dang impressive.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3752338#Comment_3752338
Its like playing lottery.
That one time I demonstrated to them I had Q&Q, Headon at the beginning. Then a teammate saw me jumped into a lock nearby, they understood and ran pass my locker so I could stun killer mid chase.
Or I used Sabo build and happened to have a random Dwight with Nomither & Boil over. He downed on purpose and I saved him from hook 3 times.
Or Vittorio used Potential energy with Provethyself then killer came, I took a hit for him to not lose stacks and he dumped it on another Gen.
It felt great.
Those are some of the best moments in the game, where you have this perfectly silent handshake with a stranger and express your plan without ever saying a word. Wish it happened more often… most of the time I try to demonstrate Q&Q Head ON, they don't understand the fast vault was silent and think I'm sandbagging.
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I've been playing Plague to hit 500 cakes on her and the number of people I've seen healed up while infected lately has been staggering. The solo q in me dies a little every time I see it.
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I'll pretend that I'm involved in this praise, and not the potato you're shaking your head at because I was too busy looking over my shoulder to tell that I was running into a wall xD
But aww. We need most posts like these. And agreed. Though I'd like to add my awe for killers who can pull off wild flicks with Oni and Billy. Never mastered that myself.
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@Krazzik said:
I've barely seen that combo at all this event, maybe two games in all? Lethal is the perk that makes Distortion pretty much required.
I don't mind Weave + Franklins (it only becomes a problem on two-story maps, I think), but for the record, I've seen it in a solid quarter of my survivor games. Maybe one in five, maybe one in four. It's pretty ubiquitous right now - especially with event chests and event items everywhere.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
I could write an essay.
- MMR. Simple as that. Rank-based Matchmaking was fine with a meaningful Rank Reset (back in the day it was 10 Ranks or so, from Rank 1 to Rank 10 or 11). You had great games for the first three weeks after Rank Reset and only the last week was wonky. They first made the Rank Reset smaller, which meant that bad players were back in Red Ranks faster and then introduced MMR. And the way it is implemented is just dumb. It was clear that there is no way to do an accurate system, simply because there are too many factors. But basing it solely on Kills and Escapes is the worst. I can run the Killer around for 5 Gens and die to NOED and will be the worst player on our team. Or I can get 9 Hooks and a 1K and am worse than a Killer who camped their first Hook until death and got a second hook and Kill via NOED.
- Addition of other versions for MacmIllan. The maps were perfect, the best Realm. And all the second variations suck for one reason or another.
- Coldwind in Daylight. Maps were too bright anyway, I was joking years ago that it is not really "Dead by Daylight" with that brightness and then they introduced daytime maps. Coldwind really is the ugliest realm by far including the non-reworked Swamp.
- Haddonfield-Rework. The map was not that bad before the latest Rework. Then they went to town on it and did everything at once. Now Haddonfield is probably the most killersided Map.
- Nerfing already niche Perks - mainly things like Botany Knowledge, Calm Spirit and Pharmacy. Those Perks were totally fine before and they decided to "buff" them, but added a Nerf to all of them. I think the worst one is Pharmacy that it is only active when injured, meaning at the time you would actually need a Medkit there might be no chest anymore.
- 1 or 2 of the three Nerfs to Adrenaline. IMO Adrenaline would have been fine with just removing the abiliy to wake up against Freddy. But adding that it does not work when being unhooked or the reduction of the Speedboost is just too much. If they really wanted one of those would have been fine, but not both. In the end, Adrenaline is a Perk which might not even activate and only activates onces in Endgame. It should be stronger.
- Adding Voicelines to basically every character now. Some are just outright annoying (e.g. Alan Wake, who ist just screaming all the time). Would be better if they would actually have an option to mute those characters.
- Giving Nurse a Mangled Add On after removing her synergy with Sloppy Butcher. I dont know who was the mind behind this, but giving her basically the Perk she just lost as an Add On was just a really weird move.
Oh man, the voicelines. I agree with most of these already (I thought the initial Haddonfield rework was pretty okay, it had bad elements for both sides but it was balanced compared to how it used to be and how it is now), and the Pharmacy nerf continues to blow my mind two years later, but you're so right and you should say it. The voicelines were awesome the first and second time they did it, because it was a novelty, and you were hearing all these iconic characters say iconic lines in a silent game. Now everyone is jabbering on and it just feels so cheesy and overwrought. I don't know why, but Vecna in particular makes me cringe. He'd be so much more imposing if he wasn't cliche villain hamming it up.
I think giving survivors any voicelines outside the lobby was a mistake, and the killers that do have lines should say them much less than they currently do (looking at you, Chucky.) The silence was a big part of the atmosphere of this game and the addition of all these cocky voicelines moves the feel more towards a typical choose-your-fighter game.
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Self-Care nerf when it was already painful to watch in action. Blast Mine losing its progress if the killer doesn't kick the gen, when previously it only lost progress if the mine went off. Pop Goes The Weasel nerf… twice. Daytime Coldwind and Ormond.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
I'm still holding out hope that Freddy will eventually be made more similar to his old kit, even after all these years. Old Freddy my beloved.
The flavor part of me says yes, absolutely, but my brain looks at 'has to sleep survivors before he can even hit them' and '50% repair speed penalty' and screams please no. I like the idea, especially Freddy being completely undetectable to awake survivors, but stuff like failing a medkit skill check mid-chase, the free 7 seconds to get to a safe spot every time Freddy starts chasing you, and the fact that nobody likes slowdown games and we have so many worse perks for that than we used to, would all need to be handled before we go back to the OG idea of the Dream World - even if we're giving Freddy actual powers to use in the Dream World, because I'm taking that as a given over his original incarnation.
But he's the killer I want reworked… second most, after Skull Merchant. He just has nothing going for him - no strength, no identity, no uniqueness, no anything. Even his teleporting, which was originally pretty cool, is now in the kits of multiple newer killers who do his job better than he can. Used to be just him and Demo (and mint rag Hag) who could teleport at will, now we have Xeno, Dredge, Unknown, Singularity, and Sadako, and I'd rather play any of them than him.
(And this has no bearing on power, but I would flip a table if the Dream World wasn't just a grey filter but had nightmarish versions of assets - faces in the shack wood grain, blood seeping out from lockers, things like that. Environmental jumpscares like the ones on Midwich, fake footsteps and laughter, that sort of thing. Make it a proper nightmare.)
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3751613#Comment_3751613
I think people kind of forget that Comp DBD has it's own rulesets and is fundamentally different compared to public matches.
Comp DBD is cool, down get me wrong, Im just tired of people bringing it up as if it influences Public Matches when the game that they are playing is vastly different compared to normal DBD.
It's pretty much a bogeyman, if not an excuse. "I'm losing games" means "survivors are comp", not "I could have improved my gameplay" or "I'm not going to win every game against opponents at my skill level."
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@Junylar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3751623#Comment_3751623
Nobody is complaining about someone sweating here, you are missing the point. In comp 100% of killer have to tunnel, since it's the only way to win against a good SWF. And in comp all anti-tunnel perks are banned and there are severe restrictions on what builds the survivors are allowed to take, so if they played with public rules without any perk and item restrictions, every comp game would end up with just 0-2 hooks in total.
I agree that in comp that 100% of killers have to tunnel. At the top levels of this game, it's heavily survivor-sided and forcing the 3v1 as early as possible/chewing through the least number of health states to get to it is the only way to play.
But the problem is that almost all matches - including SWF matches - are not at the top level of the game. And tunneling defenders, for all that they cite comp matches and stacked SWF, rarely care about the actual skill level of the survivors, or the speed at which gens are moving, when they tunnel. They just do it as a dominant strategy and claim their 4ks at 5 gens aren't overkill because the survivors might have been good.
Because yes, I've also seen your many posts that solo is miserable (I wonder why), and also the posts about how survivors deserve to be tunneled and slugged with extreme prejudice because they might tbag you if you don't kill them all ASAP. Personally I think it is possible these two things may be related.
Anyway, OP is ridiculous. Anti-tunnel perks are some of the best and healthiest kinds of perks to verse because they don't require perks or communication as counterplay - you can dynamically change your strategy on the fly once you recognize the perks are in play. And in comp, where this actually matters as opposed to moving the EZ win button slightly further out of reach, those perks will be limited anyway.
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I kinda like Nemesis's, ngl. It's like he punches them into the Shadow Realm.
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@Sngfun said:
People keep forgetting the reason BT isn't used in the first place: It's an altruistic anti tunnel perk. You protect others, not yourself, so it will never be as popular as, say, DS, even if it was theoretically stronger.
We'll wait and see, I guess.
Actually, BT used to be meta and run on basically every build even though (after its initial, long-ago change) it helped your teammates and not yourself. It was a communal anti-facecamp protection - you brought it and you assumed your teammates brought it for you. DS-IW-DH-BT was the meta for a year or two after I joined.
It fell out of favor with basekit endurance, since it was no longer necessary to combat people getting whacked right off the hook. At that point, its effects were mostly outclassed by Off The Record. I doubt Babysitter will be very meta for the same reason; it's just not necessary to play the game in the way BT used to be. So I agree that much… just wanted to point out that a perk being purely altruistic doesn't necessarily mean people won't run it. #themoreyouknow
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3751375#Comment_3751375
I did not accuse anyone, i asked and i asked for a full screenshot instead of a snipped part.
I also did not say that anyone is bad.. you keep putting words in my mouth, please refrain from that, its toxic.
I did question why no gens were done at all. → i even explained why (but you choose to ignore that part completely, even when i told you to read it again)
If you can't understand the subtext involved in asking for proof that getting bled out wasn't the OP's fault, and then laying out a whole disjoint list of why slugging is actually justified and killers get BMed too and that survivors surely would have completed gens by then if they hadn't been trolling the killer (my apologies, you weren't accusing them of being bad, you were insinuating they were a bully squad again), I don't know what to say to you.
But I strongly suspect you do understand the subtext and you're just trying to wiggle out of it so that you can make me into the bad guy here, and not, y'know, you for walking in on someone who got bullied and asking loads of leading questions that imply it must have been their fault.
Because in case it's not abundantly clear, even asking that was a bad look and willfully blind to the fact that so many players in this game are ######### to each other just because they can be. Which you seem to be quite willing to acknowledge on the survivor side, but when it's killers suddenly you're calling for proof.
And because you wanted me to read and address every part of your post so badly - your Team A Team B thing is the worst part of your argument entirely. Because you're assuming that the same people who troll others are now getting trolled by their victims. That is demonstrably and obviously untrue. There is no gestalt 'survivors' and 'killers', there's just a million different individual players. When killers troll survivors because they got trolled by another group of survivors, the new group of survivors they're targeting is innocent and has likely never done anything to deserve their treatment, nor condoned it. So they have every right to complain about their treatment - it's not karmic. Same goes for the killers who get BMed or bullied by survivors who are angry at all killers after some bad matches. This is why hating the other side and justifying BMing them is bad.